The Readirect Podcast
Book Club: Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar
Today we're covering the memoir we've been dying to read ever since it was first announced... Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar Dillard! Join us as we go chapter by chapter and deep dive all the secrets revealed inside this book.
Tune in next week as we'll be doing our annual Spooky Season book draft!
Today we're covering the memoir we've been dying to read ever since it was first announced... Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar Dillard! Join us as we go chapter by chapter and deep dive all the secrets revealed inside this book.
Tune in next week as we'll be doing our annual Spooky Season book draft!
Welcome to the Redirect Podcast. My name is Abigail Hewans and I'm Emily Rohas.
Speaker 2:The Redirect Podcast is a show where we shift the conversation back to books. We discuss themes from some of our favorite books and how those themes show up in real lived experiences.
Speaker 1:On today's episode, we're discussing Jill Duggar's new memoir Counting the Cost.
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Speaker 2:Okay, let's just go, because I have so many things to say, I've been waiting all week for this episode to talk about this book.
Speaker 1:So, really, I think like it's been difficult for us to not talk about it because we thought we were going to have to, like, erase to the finish, to finish this book, because, let's see, today is the 16th, it came out on the 12th. So we were like, oh man, it's going to be we're gonna really have to but I accidentally listened to this whole audio book in one day. Yes, it was not long.
Speaker 2:No, this is very. I think, with spare you don't necessarily need to read the book or read the first and third parts, which I still stand by that. But with this I kind of feel like if you are interested enough to listen to this, you might as well read the book, because I mean at 1.5 speed, which is almost unnecessary to listen to this audio book how slow she talks. I think it was, you know, around five hours of listening time. It's really not that much.
Speaker 2:And I'm just accidentally yes, so I mean, that's less than a work day. So anyways, I just think, if you're an interested enough after listening to this, I think it's worth kind of reading it, because it is a really short book. So yeah, I finished it the day after I got it. I think you finished it the same day you got it, so we both finished it so fast and then had to wait until Saturday to be able to talk about it.
Speaker 1:So before we jump in, just some content warnings. There is discussion of sexual assaults, child sexual abuse material and some religious trauma manipulation kind of stuff throughout the book. So if that's particularly sensitive to you, just know that that's coming and maybe you shouldn't listen to this. All right. So now that that is discussed, let's get into it. First, I think we need to remind people who the Duggers are, what this is about. So, Emily, who are the Duggers and what is? What's the background of this book?
Speaker 2:So the Duggers kind of came on the scene probably when we were kids, and because they have a lot of children and because they follow kind of, I think, extremely fundamentalist Christian beliefs, so they're kind of weird, I don't know. Yeah, not the mainstream Christianity. So I think that and having so many kids made them ripe for reality TV. So at first I mean and Jill really does go through this, I'm sure we'll talk a little more in depth from her perspective about how they kind of came to fame but at first there was like a couple of one off documentaries or specials about the family and then eventually they were picked up for the TV show.
Speaker 2:I think when they started it was 17 kids and counting and they got all the way up to 19 kids and counting, because of the additional children that were birthed. Yeah, so I mean, I grew up I don't know about you, but I grew up watching the Duggers but I think so interesting. I never thought of them as something to emulate. I don't know if you had that experience, but it was always weird and it was always like you know we grew up Christian, so it's not even like you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that part, the faith part of it, was like whoa, weirdos. But yeah, it wasn't ever. I think maybe there are some people who are like, wow, what a pure family and they have these good values. But I don't know my family. We definitely watch this, but I don't think it was ever something to emulate. It was always like laugh at or I don't know what was your experience with that.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I think that brings up to your point. The second part of this context setting, which is the sect slash cult, that of Christianity that they grew up in, was the IBLP Institute of Basic Life Principles, which was led by Bill Gotherd and as widely seen, even from like pretty conservative evangelical Christians, as a cult. So I think that's probably why, even though we grew up as pretty devout evangelical Christians, that we saw this as weird, because this is definitely not mainstream.
Speaker 2:So yeah Right, they believe in basically allowing God to determine the number of children you have, so you can't use any birth control. But it goes beyond just not stopping having children. It's pretty much you must have a lot of children, so it's not really letting it up to God. You know, it's kind of like you have to try to always be getting pregnant.
Speaker 1:Right and we'll get into it through the story of the book, but there are definitely lots of control tactics that keep people inside the cult, which is part of the reason that it is called.
Speaker 2:Yes, so. So Jill, though, is one of the children, and she has, kind of publicly, in the past several years, taken steps away from the family. I don't think until, reading this book, it was necessarily 100% confirmed how much she stepped away or to what extent there's kind of a rift. So it's been kind of brew, I mean, she started wearing pants, she got a nose for piercing. She, notably, only has three children, yeah, so I think there's been a lot of you know, public maybe questions about Jill, and then this is kind of her telling her story. So I don't know, let's jump in.
Speaker 1:Let's start. So actually I'm before. I want you to even start before chapter one. I really want to start with the dedication. This is one of the most, I think, important dedications of a book I've read recently, because it really sets the table for what the tone of the book is going to be and it's a peek into Jill's mindset. Absolutely, it's pretty lengthy, but I will you indulge me just reading it. Yes, please do I think it's necessary.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this is the dedication to those who have been harmed in the name of quote unquote religion, to those who have been, who have suffered behind closed doors and have yet to find their voice, to those who have begun to find their voice but may still be living in a season of isolation. To those who, like Esther of the Old Testament Bible story, have courageously answered the call for such a time as this and, despite the backlash, have now found their voice from victors, from victims and survivors, to strangers, family and friends. This book is dedicated to you. May you all know that you are not alone, that your story, your voice and your mental health matter. The Lord is a stronghold for the oppressed, a stronghold in times of trouble. Psalm 99. Loved it? Yeah, I was like oh, wow, okay, here we go.
Speaker 2:I think the prologue or the dedication Sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself the dedication. I think about her writing this in the context of having younger siblings that she very much loves that maybe have either been asked not to contact her anymore or have heard the things from her parents about her, and I just can't imagine. I think that adds a whole another layer to the pain of leaving your family. Is is like my siblings are still trapped in this, a very oppressive system, and maybe one day they'll read this and understand and almost like the book is written for them more than anything is kind of how I felt.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think I can relate to this in some way, when you have a special kind of compassion for people who are trapped in the old ways of thinking that used to imprison you, yeah, and you don't necessarily judge them for having them, because you understand what it's like to feel that way. Yeah, and I'm sure that was probably on her mind Absolutely. So thanks for reading that, yeah. So then, before we even get to chapter one, we're also going to talk about the prologue. I loved the prologue. Okay, the prologue also, I think, is really important for setting, continuing to set the table for what the book's going to be about. So the prologue is a story about a sled ride.
Speaker 2:Emily do you want to explain that? Yeah, so basically another point of information, that while they're dating they're not recording, as I call it, the Duggar. Children are not allowed to be alone with someone of the opposite sex and so and they're not supposed to also front hug they can. There's certain levels, like I think once they're dating they can maybe side hug and they can say I love you and then once you're engaged, maybe you can hold hands, something like that. So there's levels to it. But they can't be alone until after they're married and they save their first kiss for their wedding day.
Speaker 2:So they're kind of out in the yard with all of her siblings, it's a snow day, they're sledding and Jill and Derek just hop on a sled together. They're about to go down. You know Derek is her eventual spouse but at this point they're just dating or courting and her mom kind of comes out and is like uh-uh, you know boys and girls shouldn't be on the sled together and her nice little voice but it's Jill instantly is kind of panicked and you know she knows she's done something wrong or she feels that shame instantly. And Derek is not, has not been raised in the same kind of upbringing and he's like what we were going on a sled together.
Speaker 1:He was looking around trying to figure out who Michelle could have been talking to. Like what boy and girl right. She says she's specifically no boys and girls in the same sled, so Jill hops off and then he's he's like looking around, he's searching for who she'd be talking to and she says his face shifted from curiosity to something like bewilderment. He turned back to the big house, called out I'm sorry, Mrs Duggar, and got to his feet.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I thought this was the perfect anecdote because really, you see how much um, how much of Derek influences her and I don't think, I think that you know her family points to that as um, but her family is like he's controlling you. But I think just sometimes, just having someone else who thinks something different around you is enough to make you start to question. You know that makes her ask the question. Well, I thought this was, I thought this was so innate. I know Derek is a godly man in her eyes and then. But he's so bewildered, like by this. So maybe there's something not right about what I've been taught and how to behave or whatever.
Speaker 2:So I just think sometimes having someone else there who's questioning it, someone that you trust and that you know or you think is a good person, that can really help open your eyes a lot. So I thought this was a great anecdote to start.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree. Uh, I think, um, just the bewilderment thing is like a theme throughout, and she actually ends a prologue by saying I couldn't see my life from the outside. It didn't stay that way. Soon the bewilderment would be. Love would be mine.
Speaker 2:Yes, Honestly shout out to the ghostwriter of this book, because there are a few things like that. I thought they did a great job. Not I think it, just it sounded a lot. You know she read it when I listened to the audio book, so I mean it sounded so true to something she would actually say, but also is well written with probably not what she originally said.
Speaker 1:Yes, his name is Craig. Shout out to.
Speaker 2:Craig. Um, he did a really good job keeping her voice, but also probably improving it a lot. So, yeah, okay, chapter one All right.
Speaker 1:So chapter one is called sweet Jilly muffin. This is kind of paints the picture of her upbringing and what it was like growing up in her family. So she's kind of pre show too, yeah. Pre show. So Jill is the fourth of 19 children. She's the second daughter, um. She paints a picture of their upbringing, growing up in a rural setting, uh, surrounded by cow pastures, being homeschooled wearing long dresses and pantaloons, listening to handles, water music, being taught the dangers of rock and roll.
Speaker 2:Um, dancing. Not even as a kid were they allowed to dance. They were allowed to jump for joy. That was my first note I wrote down. I said no dancing children. That is wild. I mean I mean I knew they, I knew they didn't really dance or listen to. I guess I knew that. But to think that you're telling you know, four or five year olds no dancing. You might put bad thoughts in someone's mind. I mean that is sick, so it's sick.
Speaker 1:It is and this Okay. So she also discusses in this chapter the families beliefs about modesty and how, you know, wearing pants or showing your collarbone or elbows or whatever that can put bad thoughts in people's heads, men's heads specifically. Yes, and you know, as we know, this is something that is used to demonize the female body, but also this is a culture of pedophilia. Yeah, as is becomes very obvious in later years, both with the Josh's crimes and her older brother's crimes, and also Bill Gothard, the leader of the cult.
Speaker 1:Yes, Very sketchy behavior, very, it's almost like the self fulfilling prophecy. And also there's like this, this myth and this fallacy about modesty, because if your ankles can turn someone off, you know yeah, then there's nothing that you can do to to really like be, be modest enough, right? So it's just like this unattainable goal where you're responsible for controlling the thoughts of other people.
Speaker 2:Well, and as modest as they were, I mean, she still was a victim of her own brother's abuse and then was kind of put in a position of well, I must have done something, because I've been told my whole life, you know I'm responsible for the putting thoughts in other people's minds or the way I present myself, so this must have been my fault. I mean, it's just a horrible situation for all the culture of victim blaming.
Speaker 1:So so the family values are definitely modesty. Is the family value obedience? So she discusses this umbrella of authority within the Institute of Basic Life Principles, which is the father. Is, you know, the umbrella of authority or God? There's God, and then dad, mom, children, but it's revealed later in the book that also this applies to you. Even when you get married, you're still under your parents.
Speaker 2:Yes, which is wild to me. It is wild, we'll get there.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Jill talks about, like her, safe family, whatever, and the awareness of people around her who are different than her. So she tells the story of being on the beach and there's even a picture in the physical book. See if I can show you, because I know you don't have the physical one.
Speaker 1:I know where all of her siblings are on the beach and like full length dresses. And so this girl comes up to her on the beach and she says why are you wearing those clothes to swim and why are you not wearing bathing suits? And then just says, oh well, I said, caught between the fear of a lie and the awkwardness of talking to someone who was wearing a little more than underwear in public, we didn't plan on coming here, so we didn't bring anything else with us. The girl stared at me for a while. She took in my long dress with now sandy hem, and my blouse with its sleeves that reached almost to my elbows. I tried not to look at her golden skin. I kept my eyes on the waves instead.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I just found this part of Jill and really a lot of her life, but her childhood I felt it to be so much more relatable than I actually thought I would. Yes, Not because I grew up, obviously, like this and luckily I have really good parents who didn't try to, you know, be narcissists to me, but just the people pleasing and not wanting to ever get in trouble or do anything against God or against your parents, I mean I really she just is, I just really related to her, like the obedience I don't know her need to obey and be a good kid. It was just surprisingly relatable. So I think, unfortunately, that's her natural personality. But she was also born into a cult. You know, it's kind of like I see my own self If I had been born into a cult. I think this is exactly how I would feel of not ever questioning it, just not wanting to mess up, you know.
Speaker 2:And taking time to actually start to think. I might even you know, is this even right? Is what my parents are telling me even right?
Speaker 1:No, because when you're a kid you completely trust. Yeah, you know. But Jill that's how she learns this nickname, sweet Jilly muffin. Because of all of her siblings she was the most eager to please, the first to be obedient, the first to be quiet when they had family Bible time, the first to offer to help. You know, she got compared to her mom a lot, just being, you know, helping to take care of the little kids. Yes, you know, she's just. This is her. This is her like persona, like. This is how she values herself in life, is.
Speaker 2:I am obedient OBA.
Speaker 1:I am sweet, I am modest. I am pleasing and I'm striving to like win the approval of God and my parents.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it really struck me then reading the book and knowing how far she has had to come to in order to even write a book like this.
Speaker 2:Oh, my gosh Because again, like I said, I have amazing parents. Thank you for listening to this podcast so I would never have to write a book like this. But if I did, I, in my life right now, would never write a book about my parents and and like, expose them like this, because I still I just want to make them happy, you know, and obviously they're great. I have no need to, and maybe if I did, I would be, you know, in a different place.
Speaker 2:But I just was amazed by how, I mean I think there's been some kind of debate online and I'm kind of veering from chapter one I'm sorry we're already 20 minutes in but there's been some debate online about, you know, jill is still problematic and she still does have some problematic beliefs and totally support this book and I just think you know myself being someone, you being someone, a lot of my friends being people who have changed their beliefs in life you know it takes a lot to make even the smallest changes in what you have been taught to believe, and so hopefully she'll continue on that journey.
Speaker 2:But even still, I think I think maybe some people who haven't changed their beliefs in life don't understand how difficult it is, and so I think there's a there's a double sides to it. You know, joe still believes things that I definitely don't agree with, but to see how far she's come, that she could even publish a book like this, I mean it's it's like you have to appreciate that and also still, you can be critical, but I don't know, it's kind of complicated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean gosh, this is something that that I've been thinking about a lot recently, because actually I was at a work seminar, yes, or a couple days ago, that talked about these like relational muscles and one of them being complexity. And when you grow up in a tradition like Jill did or, honestly, in a tradition like we did, it's really easy to view the world through thou shouts and thou shout knots. What is right and what is wrong. It's so easy, it's so safe to say this is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad.
Speaker 1:But the shades of gray actually take a lot harder and take a lot more maturity to see and discern. And so you can have to. You can hold two things at the same time. You can say Jill still has problematic beliefs and you know her beliefs in the way that she probably votes are probably harmful to people. On the other hand, look how far she's come and we can honor her bravery. And to actually do what other people are saying, which is like we shouldn't support her because she has a problematic belief.
Speaker 1:It's just doing the same thing on the other spectrum of like Bill got hurt it's, just it's just doing the same thing and saying, okay, the world is black and white and there are no shades of gray.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1:It takes. It's a lot harder and takes a lot more bravery to do that. Okay, so the chapter one. Yeah, so chapter one ends and her parents come into the girls room and say hey, you know, josh as approached us and he's confessed some things that he's done a sexliest abuse the girls yes, if we're not familiar. Yeah, that's something that happens.
Speaker 2:And I know I mean I. She doesn't talk about it at all. Really, in the course of this book she never discusses what happened to her, and I thought she doesn't want to. She doesn't? It, first of all, doesn't need to.
Speaker 2:Second, of all unfortunately, as we'll get into, it's all out there. But also I thought it was almost more powerful of just like the closing of the door, of like this is the I was. She was forced to not talk about it as well, so I thought I mean the choice to end the chapter on that no, and not say anything else was very, almost way more impactful than if she had gone into details which she definitely didn't need to and we shouldn't not know.
Speaker 1:So, unfortunately, right we'd read yeah, it is hard. Her right to just end other victims rights to say if they want to discuss that, if they want to or not want to. Yeah, and I'm really honestly glad that she didn't, because obviously that it's revealed throughout the book. She doesn't want to talk about it and yeah she shouldn't have to so.
Speaker 1:So the next kind of phase of her childhood is Jim Bob. He is a, her dad is a representative in the Arkansas State Senate, and he actually decides to make a run for the US Senate.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, I must. It's you know in the office when Angela is dating the state senator and she keeps me like the senator and I like no, he's a state senator, let's calm down, correct. Yes, yes, he decides to run for actual Senate.
Speaker 1:He loses, obviously. But on the day that they go to vote, the whole family shows up in their pantaloons and the press is like, hmm, what is this? And so weird they. This is really weird. And so it's like this little like oh, you know, in public, you know human interest story. And then Discovery Health picks it up and they're like oh, we want to do a documentary about you and Jim. Oh, my God, I can't believe I skipped this.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was going to go back. Oh my God, Emily, how did Jim Bob decide that God wanted him to run for Senate?
Speaker 2:He flipped a coin three times and I guess it landed on I think it was heads, all three times. So he's like Well, that tracks. I guess I should run for Senate. And it's not even clear if he asked God, you know, because I think that would make a little more sense if he had been, you know, saying hey God, if I flip this coin three times and it lands on heads three times, that's my sign I'm going to run for Senate. That's not clear. I think he literally just flipped a coin three times.
Speaker 1:It landed on heads and he's like this must mean something, I guess if this has not been clear yet, you know, if you haven't listened to our memoirs episode, this fits into the category of mentally ill dad memoir.
Speaker 2:We have too many mentally ill dad memoirs, also counting little house on the prairie in this category. So, before you have children, work on yourselves, it's okay. It's okay to ask for help. Jim Bob should have done that years ago. Let's, let's work on that. Yes, Okay.
Speaker 1:So you know he fails, whatever. They start making these like one off documentary episodes and this is, like you know, jim Bob's like. This is our ministry to the world to show them our way of life. And you know he very clearly values fame. Yes, and then eventually this snowball's into. I mean we're kind of glazing over a lot of stuff here. If you want to read more, read the book. But this eventually morphs into the TLC show 17 kids and counting.
Speaker 2:It was so fascinating because in the course of them filming these documentaries and stuff, they go from being in extreme poverty. I mean, jill describes eating a secretly eating a can of green beans because she was hungry, and bean sandwiches, tater tot casserole Okay, this is they had. There's a whole anecdote about Josh in a secret pickle recipe. So food was very scarce, as you can see, yeah, and then they the the fame kind of comes in and they their lifestyle kind of completely changes. So I thought that was very interesting.
Speaker 1:Totally. This is it's like Is this your ministry or is this your cash cow? Yeah, you know, that's kind of one of the questions that is like pose but a rhetorical question that's posed, but I answered throughout the book. Yes, so towards the end of this chapter, jill's dad, jim Bob, actually sets her up with Derek. They are like he's like their prayer partners, he's like a missionary in Nepal and he's like I think you would like Jill and like they set them up and Jill and Derek speedily meets court and get engaged.
Speaker 2:Yes, Get married. Yes, it's a very fast. I mean they fly out to Nepal. I thought that whole story was super interesting.
Speaker 1:I remember watching on the show.
Speaker 2:Yes, I remember so many scenes that she describes. I remember watching it. But she flies out to Nepal with her dad and they spend all this time together and it's kind of like we need to decide if we're going to get married now immediately immediately or and in this period of what originally is going to be two weeks and the show asked them to cut it down to five days.
Speaker 2:But then they end up staying two weeks anyways and the show just films for five days and they kind of fake say goodbye. But I mean it seems like they're very happy together and like our good match. But I just can't imagine deciding so quickly If I was gonna marry someone Also imagine doing that with your dad there. Yes, and you are always with him.
Speaker 1:Your dad is always there. I mean, that is so embarrassing, like to me. I can't even. I can't even.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, anyone who's in a relationship. You know that your dynamic, the way you are when you're just around your partner or your spouse or whoever, is different than when you're around other people. Like there's an intimacy, there's a like you're allowed to kind of completely be yourself and to never have that until the night after you have already signed a legal document to commit yourself to me with each other. I just don't know if.
Speaker 2:I need to. Yeah, so to be clear. Yeah, they describe one time where he allegedly falls asleep and they can kind of talk one on one, but he's still there, he's just asleep, and they're sitting in another part of the room. So that's how they come to be together, but super, super so what happens the day before their wedding, emily, the day before their wedding. First of all, to set the scene, they had to invite two not 200, 2000 people to their wedding.
Speaker 1:So that just Emily. Do you know how many people were invited to my wedding? How many Like 90. And that is too much.
Speaker 2:Yes, there were 140 at my wedding and who, like, actually attended and it was still very stressful to plan. So imagine planning a wedding. She had three. I think she talks about two or three different wedding planners working on this. Also, derek's mom was diagnosed with stage four cancer and they don't know if she's gonna live. At this point she's kind of like battling for her life has to be airlifted.
Speaker 1:But TLC wants the show to happen.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, tlc wants the show to happen, and so all this is converging. It's the day before her wedding and Jim Bob comes to her when she's kind of you know, running around trying to get everything last minute done, and he's gives her this piece of paper, not a big stack of paper, a piece of paper with a signature line on it, and she says, hey, for the show. They just need all the kids to kind of sign this. And obviously she is not in a place where she can really ask what is this, what am I signing? What is this legally binding? She's just stressed out and she, her mother-in-law, might be dying. Her wedding, of 2,000 people attending, is tomorrow. She's, you know, doing all this stuff, and so she, of course, she just signs the paper. She signs it, and I think she will come to regret that moment. But it's not her fault If your dad, who you trust, is just throwing a piece of paper at you.
Speaker 1:She had no reason not to trust him.
Speaker 2:And you're also extremely stressed, so you're like, surely he wouldn't be. You know, this is probably just a you know, I don't know what am I trying to say, like dotting my eyes, crossing my T's? It's probably just, you know, compliance or whatever. It's not something serious that I'm committing years of my life to. But in fact spoiler alert it is.
Speaker 1:So that launches us into chapter four. This is where Jill starts to kind of realize this isn't cool. So, because she's married to Derek and I think, oh, this is great, I don't know, it just made me feel like some nostalgia and, like Gorman Fuzzy is about, like oh, when you start your life with a new person, it helps you like individuate and like create your own story. But that story is now clashing up against her parents' story. So they're on this rigorous filming schedule and Derek's like hey, this is kind of a lot. Like I wish that we could just tell them like that this doesn't work for us.
Speaker 2:That, like people want to. They're not being paid one penny for this. So Derek is working during the day and she, I think, is still in midwife classes at this point she's trying to become a midwife and so they're working, and so then they'll start filming at like seven, eight, nine o'clock at night. So it's I mean, it's ridiculous on the weekends they're having to film, so they basically have no time to themselves as they're trying to start their life together, and they're also not being paid for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he says this story. He's like Jill, I wish we could just tell them like this is a work for us and she's like we can't do that. This is our family ministry.
Speaker 2:You know, like dad says, we have to do it, and it's like it's that big older man again, that panic of I can't say no to my parents, right, that's not even a question.
Speaker 1:And then Jill gets pregnant, yes, and yeah naturally, and they're.
Speaker 2:This is one of the big first pieces of conflict, so Jill doesn't want her birth filmed and she should be able to say that there's also a contractual obligation to tell the producers before you tell people that you're pregnant, so that they are able to film you telling people that you're pregnant, which to me was absolutely disgusting. I'm sorry, I understand kind of, but I just cannot imagine that Having to I don't know share such an important piece of news in your life with producers of a television show before you can tell your friends, your parents your siblings, I just I I.
Speaker 1:And you're not getting paid for it, yes, and it's free.
Speaker 2:It's not even like, oh, this will get us some money that we can use, so it's worth it. No, no, they're dirt poor, living, you know, trying to make it work and also having to film this much, so no Right.
Speaker 1:Um okay. So anyways, but it does cause a conflict between the family. Yeah, she's like, and this is one of the first times she ever really stands up for herself and she says, no, I don't want cameras in there. This is very personal and private. I'm a modest person, yes, and also like this. I'm scared, like I don't, and so then they like basically coerce them. She's, she's like 22.
Speaker 2:She's still a child, basically. I mean, I'm not to, you know, infantilize 22 year olds, but she's still incredibly young Having her first child. I mean even under the best of circumstances. You know, even Michelle who was in her, you know what, 30s and 40s having children on the show and had done it 18 times prior, I still don't even think she would really want. You know, I don't think she really wanted the cameras to be there.
Speaker 1:So you know, but she couldn't, but she couldn't say no. Yeah, she doesn't know how no one can say no. So, yeah, jill is breaking this generational curse and she's like no, with the help of Derek. And so then they finally agree that like they're going to have they're, they're going to have like camcorders or whatever they're going to give us cameras to film.
Speaker 2:They'll film.
Speaker 1:And they, I guess, acquiesce to that. And she has a really traumatic birth. She has met multiple traumatic births, bless her heart. But anyway. So this all happens, whatever. This is the point of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she lived for three days, just the first childbirth, three days before going to the hospital. So absolutely insane Okay.
Speaker 1:So this story is used as a vehicle to show her, she and Derek finally seeing it for themselves like the first little glimmer of them doing that. Then another significant thing that happens in this chapter is that the police report from Josh's abuse is leaked to the press and In Touch Magazine publishes it, and so now everyone knows about her abuse against her wishes.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I thought this was to me incredibly powerful how many times she called out the magazine and the you know officials and everyone who was involved by name who were responsible for releasing this, because I understand to an extent the desire for the public.
Speaker 2:I mean, at this point Josh was, I, no longer a minor. Neither were some of the victims the one victim who was still a minor their name was redacted from the police report, I believe, but everyone else it was fully published and I understand they're not minors anymore. But this is about something that happened when they were children and something you know. I think even if they had just said Josh did this, here's the police report fully redacted, but you know there's, you know, four victims or whatever. Don't say the genders or the ages, I think there's enough kids that. I think that would have at least been better.
Speaker 2:I don't understand why they had to release the names and such details of what happened. I feel like there's a way to expose Josh as a predator, which was rightfully done, without adding more harm to people who have already been victimized. And you know, I just think the integrity of the journalists, of whoever released this, I think they deserve to be called out. Every time it was, I mean, it was really to me a horrible. I can't imagine. I wrote down the quote she said. She said I wanted to dig a hole so big that none of these memories would ever reach the surface again. Like she doesn't even want to talk about it now at this point.
Speaker 1:After a lot of therapy and a lot of distance, yeah, and she shouldn't have to.
Speaker 1:So she definitely shouldn't have had to back then, yeah, and she talks about this is. You know, this story is traumatic to her in multiple ways. One, the obviously like the actual abuse. But then two, when they had to talk to, like you know, CPS agents and stuff, she was so worried she was gonna get taken away from her parents yes, and that you know she was gonna have to go live and foster care. I mean, this is like really, and, as we've discussed, we're adding in the guilt element and that she feels partially responsible for this abuse. Yes, for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:So yes, it's really really, really messed up.
Speaker 2:And at one point in here I'm sorry if you can help me remember the context, because I was writing this, I think. Well, I was trying to work as well, but at one point Josh is kind of laughing about it and Meach, that's what they call her on the Duggar Star. Yeah, michelle the mom. She kind of chastises Josh and is like this is your fault, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's not your fault it got leaked, but like you did this.
Speaker 2:So you can't be laughing, but I just was so into it, oh gosh.
Speaker 1:So, to add to the Josh layer, they are all in a room discussing okay, how are we still going to do the show? Like we got to figure out what to do and yeah, make good work for ourselves after this. Basically, Jill and Jessa are voluntold that they will do an interview with Megan Kelly on Fox News.
Speaker 2:It's a horribly hard interview to watch and I remember watching that interview and subsequent interviews that happen as more scandals are released, and I just remember how discussing it was even then To watch.
Speaker 1:It's revealed in the book that Josh was in the room. That's even worse Off camera. He was in the room just out of the shot, while they're having this interview with Megan Kelly and crying and they're kind of like defending Josh, you know, like they have no voice, they have no tools for which to talk about this. They have had no therapy. They have had.
Speaker 2:It's just ugh and they're told that this is what they have to do to save their family's ministry Quote unquote.
Speaker 2:This is the other quote I transcribed. She said I had no boundaries, no sense of what I needed to do to protect myself. I was terrified and didn't want to do the interview at all, but I felt it was the only way to prove my love and commitment to my parents. And then later she said I thought I knew how much it would cost me. Ugh, this was definitely the worst part to me. I mean Josh being in the room while you're having to recount what he did to you as a child. I mean that is not right. I'm sorry. I don't care if they have forgiven him at this point or whatever. I do not think he should have been there. And a journalist, megan Kelly, who allowed that? I mean that she didn't question that like why is he here? Why is he allowed to be here right now?
Speaker 1:Right, and just like this is starting to really underline the fact that there are links that Jim Bob will go to to protect Josh's privacy reputation, yes, but that he does not afford to his daughters and asks them to sacrifice, and that just is indicative of the broader culture of like women being in servitude to men and it's blatantly clear that, yes, the boys in this family are given financial assistance, they're given, you know, businesses, they're given, they're given protection and the, the girls and the women are just continuously exploited to protect Josh, really, I mean, and Jim Bob, it's just, oh, it's disgusting, it is disgusting, yes, okay.
Speaker 1:So in chapter five, derek and Jill moved to El Salvador to become missionaries. While they're in El Salvador, a few things happen. One, the Ashley Madison scandal, breaks. So if you can dig into your memories from the 2010s and remember, it is like a small blip on all of Josh's scandals, but yeah there was a day.
Speaker 1:There's a data breach and the names of people who are signed up for Ashley Madison, the extra marital affair dating website, leak, and he was part of it. He ends up having to resign from, I forget, what it's called family values.
Speaker 1:Some, some thing, and they can write they transition the show. This is important because this is the purpose of transitioning the show from 19 kids and counting to Jill and Jess accounting on. So I think this as well. After the abuse, you know, police report is released and after this they're like okay, we can't have Josh on the show anymore, we can't have the parents on the show anymore, but Jill and Derek still aren't getting paid.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the show is called Jill and Jessica counting on insanely and they're also kind of I mean, she's, she's just been retraumatized and she kind of wants to just go live in El Salvador quietly with her kids.
Speaker 2:You know, in her yes do her, you know, mission work or whatever, and also kind of being on the show. I don't know, obviously, the truth of what is the situation in El Salvador, but in her mind it is causing her to be in her, to be in danger, at risk of being, you know, someone trying to kidnap her for ransom. I mean, tlc takes out ransom insurance on her, so they obviously think there's some danger. Um, so yeah, she kind of is not only not wanting to necessarily put herself out there anymore, she's not making any money and she'd kind of just wants to go do her mission work and not be on tv anymore, but then unfortunately, uh, she must contractually.
Speaker 1:so she must contractually. And that's something that she is still actually not aware of, um, because she's still not aware of what it was in the contract that she signed. She's still not aware that she signed a contract, yeah, no, yeah, and even what would it be in it. And so then this something happened. So jim bob comes down to visit um jill and derrick. They're having a conversation and I'm gonna, if you will indulge me, just read a couple paragraphs here too, Just highlight the manipulation.
Speaker 1:How crazy this is. So, derrick, this is derrick talking. I'm just wondering, pops, do you think that maybe we can see some kind of income from the show? At some point, pops tensed. I cringed, bracing for impact. He looked genuinely shocked. When he regained his composure, his words were carefully measured, derrick.
Speaker 1:From the beginning, our family has viewed this as a ministry, an opportunity to share with the world that children are a blessing. Back when we started the show, we didn't make anything off of it. I was the one who was able to negotiate a good deal for our family. I could retire right now. The only reason I'm still doing this is for you kids. Pop sat back, question dodged, conversation over, and then derrick pushes back. Well, how about us receiving a certain percentage of what comes in? Could that work? Pops paused. We used to pay josh, no hello, but decided not to do that after a while because it wasn't a very good idea. Yeah, um, the dialogue, you know it continues and then he turns, eventually turns to derrick. After derrick continues pushing back and he says so what are you worth? $10 an hour, 12. That's what I pay. Some of the others who work for me, first of all, jim bomb you know, are you serious?
Speaker 2:you pay less than chick-fil-a. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So Uh, and then well, derrick said what's the show worth? You can't appraise the value of a worker to a business until you know the whole business is worth. So I guess before we can tell you what we're worth, we'll need to know what kind of deal you're got with tlc. So valid Jill is so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:She's, I can imagine, I, I literally, like I said, I, I know exactly how she feels, how I would feel, you know, pushing back against my parents if they were like this, which they're not, but you know what I mean right.
Speaker 1:But this was also like I was like yes, like she finally has someone who's concerned about her. Yes, like chiefly, like she is the most important and I loved it. I loved it as well and I.
Speaker 2:It's not even insane at this point to be like hey pops, uh, we are literally 50 of this show that was going to be cancelled because of your pedophile son and you guys covering it up, so you are not even on this freaking show anymore. That sometimes you're like in the background of a shot, but it is not the extent of what we're having to do.
Speaker 1:Kim, why are you getting paid for it? Yes, yes, and so then like this. Then there's another conversation, has to the phone where, like, they're continuing this conversation and the gym bob says this isn't like you, sweet chili muffin is derrick behind this. Are you having problems financially? Are you depressed?
Speaker 1:sick oh sick, oh, oh. And then, when they keep pushing back about like hey, we need to get paid, he's yells at them and says let me tell you something now You're gonna get sued. You're gonna need whatever money you have because you're gonna be sued.
Speaker 2:This is after they learn about the contract and what they're kind of saying, if we're not gonna make any money off of this, we can't keep doing it, because you know they're in a situation, unfortunately, where they Are missionaries who have to raise their own salary so they can't just keep working for free on the show and, you know, having very little money to live off. I mean, and it just to me it's just ridiculous because it's it's like they're not even asking for that much, you know, they're just asking for maybe a small percentage of the income of the show and and to support their mission work. And this is where I think it becomes abundantly clear and probably started to become clear to jill Um as well that this is not really a missionary for jim bob. It is fully about his ego.
Speaker 2:It's a business, and it's a business because it's ego to me if, if you're a christian and you believe, I'm sure that you know God could use a TV show. But I don't think you would be so dismissive of people who are doing mission work, you know, if that's, you know, if you believe that you know this show doesn't air in El Salvador so you can't reach those people, so but he's so dismissive of them as missionaries. He's like well, what are you guys doing? Like you know you have a few people you mission to. I am on air with. You know he's a very, very con Narcissist. So it's just so clear. If it wasn't already clear, you know the Jim Bob sucks. This is, I think, where it just becomes his true color start to be shown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's like this rift now that's created as we go into chapter six. So the big event of chapter six is that when Jill and Derek are back in town like they're home for a while and they're forced to, yeah, there's a family meeting and Jim Bob has like all the adult children around and he's like hey, I'm going to offer you, thanks to Derek and his you know what he's been saying to me I'm going to offer you all like $80,000. All you have to do is sign this document. And all the siblings are like wow, thank you.
Speaker 1:And Jill and Derek are like let's read what the document is yes, and in the document it's saying that they have to sign a lifelong NDA and that they have to agree to participate in any show that Jim Bob wants them to. The agreement is with Jim Bob's like organization, Mad Family Inc and not TLC. Yes, and he would give them a one-time lump sum of $80,000. Yes, and at the same time that this is all going on, Jill and Derek are trying to get this new job with the international missions board. But they're like hey, we are ready to hire you, but we need to know that you won't have to be on like any the show, like any more, or do?
Speaker 2:anything.
Speaker 1:And they're like okay, yeah, no worries, Like we'll, we'll get it in writing that we don't have to.
Speaker 2:And this is a being a problem.
Speaker 2:Yes, very problematic, because this, to me, it's it's like okay, you are trying to manipulate the situation because if you know, if you're a good father, maybe you still want to continue the show, which, again, first of all, I just don't think any minor children should ever be on TV. They shouldn't be on TikTok, they should not be your content, as you're, as an adult, that you're making money off of them. So that's just my belief. But if, whatever, you want to keep doing the show, but if you're a good dad, in my opinion you'd be like oh, you guys don't want to do this anymore, that's fine. You know, this is my thing. You guys are free to go. I'll happily do anything I can to help you. You know, get this new job, start your new life together, and if you ever want to come back, you're welcome to. But he knows that at this point, jill it's Jill and Jessica counting on. He can't let Jill go. So he just does everything in his power to stonewall their ability to move on in life.
Speaker 1:And this is something I haven't really discussed yet, but it's clear, if you watch a show, that like it's the girls who make money for the show that generate the weddings and the births and the big episodes, and not the sons, and so it's just like she is a moneymaker for him and her life and I don't know raised his children because by age seven she was changing diapers, she was cooking dinner, she was watching two or three children who were her little buddies.
Speaker 2:So I mean, if you're going to count the cost, jim Bob, which we'll get into that later I mean the years of paying a nanny for 19 children and you just decided to use your children in that capacity. I mean that alone, without a TV show, is worth at least $80,000, at least per year. You know what I mean. So, anyways, it's so. This is when I honestly stopped making taking notes because I started to get so mad.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, needless to say, Jill and Derek decide not to take the $80,000. And they are, you know. They say, all right, we're ready to take this job with the International Emissions Board, Like let's resign from Jill and Jessica counting on. And so they try and do that, but that doesn't work. They won't, they won't, nobody not Jim Bob, not TLC nobody will give them a contract or anything that says that they are released from the show. So they have to pass up on this job with International Emissions Board, which really sucks. And this could continue to break contention between Jim Bob, Michelle and Derek and Jill.
Speaker 2:They also notably and I think I was not really watching the show anymore by this way, because it just became like too, after everything came out about Josh, it was kind of like, okay, I'm not watching this anymore. But so I don't really remember them leaving the show, but they film multiple for hours, multiple explanations for TLC to air about why they left the show, why they're choosing to step away, and TLC does not air any of them. So it's kind of like oh, jill, just you know, pieced out, left the show with no clear explanation, and it's kind of like that's not fair either. You know you're putting. You know she could have had a chance to share her side of the story or just say I want to be a mom to my children and my family and I don't want to film anymore. But no, that she's not even given that, you know, autonomy or opportunity to just share it for herself.
Speaker 1:So they kind of just suddenly are no longer on the show, with no explanation, and they don't have a job, yes, so, and they still haven't gotten paid for any of the work on the show.
Speaker 2:Oh, and Jim Bob's little guy, chad, who have a lot of questions about him and what he knows. But he literally drains their. He, you know, was working for Jessette or Jill oh yeah, he was working for Jill and Derek, fundraising for them and not doing a very good job, but he was supposed to be, you know, a help from his, their, you know, her parents. He, like, works directly for Jim Bob and when they kind of when this tension starts happening, they come back to America and they look in their bank account and he's taken all but a couple hundred dollars from them. So that's all they have to them.
Speaker 1:So that's all they have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they also did not again take the $80,000, which some children did, which may explain a lot that a lot of the adult kids may have signed lifelong NDA. So you know who knows what they really think, but that's just something to keep in mind.
Speaker 1:So also at this time, jess says I mean sorry. Jill is pregnant with her second child, samuel. She has an even more traumatic birth for life in the baby's life.
Speaker 2:This scared me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just terrifying.
Speaker 2:If you're, if you are pregnant also. We did our content warnings in the beginning, but I would think if you're pregnant, you may not want to read this to me. You may want to wait, Because it is a very traumatic birth and incredibly scary, like very close to death. So for both her and the baby, obviously she pulled through, everything was okay.
Speaker 1:But there was a lot of trauma to her uterus and so there are questions after Samuel's birth, of like, will he have developmental issues because he had a lack of oxygen, and also, will Jill be able to have children again? Will it be safe for her to have another birth?
Speaker 2:And so that was so interesting too, because she was kind of thinking there was almost there was a sadness. You know that she may not ever be able to have more children. But then there was also a relief of I may not have to have 19 children like I thought I was going to have to, and just that has to be so complicated.
Speaker 1:Like you never in this in IBLP.
Speaker 2:You never get the, you never get to even think how many kids would I want, you know? Or do I even want children? You know that's never a question you can even ask. So this is kind of the first time she even has that thought like, do I want to have that?
Speaker 1:many children at all and she's feeling guilt about not being able to because also like a big thing within IBLP is you know you have these like reversal babies, so like you got to vasectomy reverse or a tubal ligation reverse and you know it's like you should just submit. You shouldn't use any contraceptive because even if it's a high risk pregnancy or whatever you should just trust God and do it anyway.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So, or even if you don't have the money for more children or if you correct, jim Bob and Michelle before the show.
Speaker 2:Well, that's one of the things too that we didn't even talk about, the reversal babies. But the whole way that Jim Bob and Michelle kind of got sucked into this was I believe it was after Josh or before Josh somewhere right up in the early children they, michelle, was using birth control and then they had a miscarriage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:She was kind of convinced by Jim Bob that their use of birth control caused her to have a miscarriage later on. She wasn't even using it at the same time. It was just that she had previously used birth control and then later had a miscarriage. So they believe that it's basically their fault if you have a miscarriage or, you know, if you're not able to have children and you need to fully submit to God and he'll give you all the kids. So it's very complicated with the children thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, and Jim Bob. So she's starting to feel really like guilty kind of that she might not be able to have more children because she, you know, was raised that this is like a tenant of her faith.
Speaker 1:And at one point she goes to like the hospital for like a checkup on Samuel and for some reason Jim Bob's there and she's talking privately to a friend and she says something about like you know, we still don't know if I'll be able to have more children. And then Jim Bob like kind of pipes up and interjects himself for the conversation and is like well, we don't know that yet, do we? Yeah, like, excuse me, like she almost died, you're not part of this bro, yeah, bro, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:So another really important thing that happens in chapter seven before we move on, is that Jill starts questioning like around the same time she's like they start going to like a church Her and Derek do and normal church, you know people are wearing pants and nose rings and stuff like that. And she is like talks to Derek and she's like can I wear pants? And he's like I don't think that, yeah, I don't care, like this isn't a sin, it's just your conviction, I guess.
Speaker 1:But so she decides to start wearing pants, and she even asked him.
Speaker 2:you know, when you see a girl in pants, doesn't it give you bad thoughts?
Speaker 2:And Derek's like no, and I thought, that you know they're taught, you know they talk very early on about you can't ask questions because you stir up contention among the brethren and I just thought that was so interesting Like she couldn't even ask one of her brothers. You know, hey, I don't know, not that you would really want to ask your brother that question, but you can't even ask that question of you know. Does this make you feel anything or have any thoughts? It's just you have to accept that that's true and you can't talk to anyone about anything. Like I don't even think Jill to this day knows which of her siblings signed the NDA or if they changed any of their. You know if any of them negotiated not signing certain parts of it.
Speaker 2:Because they can't even talk about anything because that would be stirring up contention. So you can't even have these. There's almost no one and she talks about this in the next chapter but they can't. You can't trust anyone outside your family because you're on this reality TV show and you're never know who's going to be leaking stuff or whatever. But you also can't talk to anyone inside your family because your parents have trained you from birth that you don't want to cause any kind of problems or, or, you know, make anyone upset so it's like there's no one you can actually talk to you about this. You know because at least normally.
Speaker 2:if you grow up in a weird family or whatever, or, you know, even a normal family, at least you can talk to your siblings and be like hey, that was weird, you know, but in this situation they can't even talk to each other, they're just so. Then, finally, she does have Derek to talk to it, and that is what kind of makes her realize. You know, maybe none of this is real.
Speaker 1:Right, so exactly Like. So she starts wearing pants yes, she starts. She gets a nose ring and all of this just makes her dad incensed and there's a quote at the end. So he starts really like, digging in and getting upset. And she said he hated the hunk of metal on my nose. He despised how I was dressing in ways that put sexual thoughts in guys minds Instead of his sweet jelly muffin. I was now a threat to the rest of his children and a threat to his authority, exactly. So. That's what it is. It's a threat to his ultimate like, because it's not really about pants or nose rings.
Speaker 2:It's about his control and he's realizing she's asking for money. She's not signing this NDA. She isn't dressing the way I taught her to. She's acting differently than what I raised her to. I am no longer in control, and that's what it really is about.
Speaker 1:So things are really starting to escalate here In chapter. We're getting close to the end of the book. At chapter eight, jill and Doug are Jill and Derek ultimately miss out on a Panama job, and then Derek decides to go to law school. But around that time they get a letter from the IRS.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:All right. So in this letter from the IRS it says that they owe taxes on like $180,000, that they were never paid, but it looks that it was paid to them.
Speaker 2:They asked for tax records from TLC and Jim Bob's accountants, and they seem to not even be aware that Jill never received this money. They're a very matter of fact about it, but there is, yes, like she said, hundreds of thousands of dollars of income that they were supposedly paid, but they never, obviously, received any of it.
Speaker 1:So Jill and Derek are like, hey, we didn't get this money and now this is causing us a lot of problems because, a we owe money on the money that we didn't make and, b Derek is trying to get grants to go to law school and he can't because it looks like we're rich and also can we have a mediation. So they try to do this mediation.
Speaker 2:It goes super badly, it was horrible If you read nothing in this book. I honestly read this chapter because it is I don't know it was so again, I could not even take notes during this chapter when I was listening to it.
Speaker 1:I was just, it was so bad it was, so manipulative it was so bad.
Speaker 2:I mean, tim Bob is screaming at her with his finger pointed at her in mediation yes, and all they asked for. To me it's again. It's not even being greedy, it's just asking for this. They have documentation of how much he claimed that he was already paying her and it's not even lifetime I think it was what for the past couple years. So it's just, I don't know. It's not even like to me. They're not even being greedy, they're just asking for a very small portion of what he made off of the show, which was on top of their labor, their trauma.
Speaker 2:People were tuning in because of. I watched the first episode of Jill and Jadessa counting on because I wanted to see how they reacted to everything being released about Josh. I wanted to see Anna like same with her, anna probably didn't get paid a cent. That's Josh's wife, so like it was them, it was not Jim Bob and Michelle. So it's just ridiculous. They're not even asking. You know, I feel like there's some famous families where it's obviously a greedy thing. People are trying to get as much money as they can. This, to me, felt extremely reasonable and Jim Bob just lost it on them and I just thought this is you know this. No wonder it's a final straw for Jill, you know.
Speaker 1:So that's a great recap. So Jill and Derek decide that they really they're going to need this money back because at this point now they're going to financially lose because the IRS asked them to pay money on money they didn't make. So Jim Bob ends up sending them this letter I can't believe this is real.
Speaker 1:I'll read a part of it. Yes, we allotted, at different times, amounts to our children for tax purposes because each one of our children were benefiting from having all of their needs met Food, clothing, shelter, utilities, music lessons, education, travel instruments, vehicles, phones, medical insurance, medical bills, et cetera. There are some low numbers of what was approximately spill on Jill in the last few years. Apartment rate rent $750. By 24 months is $18,000. He goes into utilities, midwife, education, her Honda pilot, her harp, her furniture, cell phone, car insurance, eating at home $3 per day for 12 years. So basically, and this is what gets me, I think that parents who try and take credit for giving their parents, their kids, like why did you? And clothes you? That is the bare minimum of having a kid.
Speaker 2:You had a kid. You chose to have 19 kids.
Speaker 1:You knew you were going to have to feed and clothe them.
Speaker 2:Jill didn't decide to be born. Also, he counts from the point she turned 18 until the point she gets married is how he tallies this up. So whatever, but it's not like she was allowed.
Speaker 1:She was only eating at home $3 per day for 12 years. Some of them are just the last couple of years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Anyways, she wasn't allowed to go to college, she wasn't allowed to get a job, she wasn't allowed to go out and live on her own as a woman. So what did you like? She didn't even have the opportunity or the option you know. Let's say to do 18,. You know, maybe that's a little more reasonable. Probably not. I still don't think that's right. But even if you're just counting from when she turned 18 or whatever she, didn't have any other choice.
Speaker 1:And so what they're saying is we'll deduct all of this money, your costs for like upbringing, basically from the amount that we said we paid you and we'll give you that, and that's like $20,000. And so he also says Jill, when mom and I pass on, you are set to receive one 19th of everything that we own and to set up for it in a trust for you kids. If you tack us, probably your inheritance will be lowered significantly.
Speaker 2:Yep, so that's a threat.
Speaker 1:That's a threat.
Speaker 2:So and it's also just like I don't know. I don't know. It's so inherent. Yes, I agree with you. Any parent who's like I did this for you. But also, the show would not exist without Jill. She has done so much. You know way more than the really little kids I wrote at one point there's a Jennifer at question mark. I did not know about her. You know so who are they, and the older children have put themselves through so much for the show. I feel like what they were asking for it. What was it like? $180,000 out of millions, that's a very reasonable.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so Jill and Derek dig in and they're like, if you don't do this, like we're going to sue you and eventually they cave and start these monthly installments of payments back to them. It is a fraction of what they deserve and is such a small drop in the bottom A bucket to the worth of Mad Family Inc.
Speaker 2:But Well, then there's one point, and before we get to the final chapter, I would like to talk about this, yeah please.
Speaker 2:There's one point in here and I forget what exactly happened because again, I was in sense and not writing things down by this chapter. But they're waiting for some kind of paperwork and I don't know if it was this chapter, but Michelle drives over in the middle of the night and leaves it and that honestly made me emotional. Like they wake up in the middle of the night and someone's banging on their door. They don't answer it and then she sees, I guess, her mom driving away and she gets a message from her. It's like I left the paperwork you need by your door.
Speaker 2:I don't know Michelle, again, she's problematic, she is a perpetrator of all this, but to me Jill clearly also views her as a victim and she really does. It's clear that there's no relationship between her and Jim Bob, or it's very strained, but there is still very much, a lot of love and generosity towards her mom and so, yeah, at one point I don't know it's obviously women are very oppressed at this cult. So it makes sense that maybe Michelle hasn't had her way. But the moment earlier where we talked about her chastising Josh At the very beginning, you know, they're kind of making fun of a girl who's dressed inappropriately and Michelle's like don't make fun of her, she doesn't know any different. You know, that's that's for us, to not laugh at her or whatever, like.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of generous moments from Michelle through this book, but this moment of her showing up in the middle of the night, you know, who knows what really happened if, if Jim Bob sent her over there, or if he had one moment of changing his mind and she kind of capitalized it, or if she just chose to do that on her own, I don't know, but I just thought Again, it's just complicated because I don't know. Jill Jill was a lot kinder to Michelle than I expected and a lot harder on Jim Bob than I expected in this book.
Speaker 1:So anyways, that was just, and I wonder if part of that is to do with seeing the way that her marriage Dynamics are and then comparing that to her parents. Oh yeah, feeling like, wow, my mom actually has like a lot less autonomy, yeah, and she should or should be in a healthy marriage.
Speaker 2:Um, so, yeah, yeah so anyways that I don't know that that's made me emotional, thinking of her Driving over in the middle of the night. I don't know who knows what the story is there, but just thought that was a Interesting anecdote. All right, so yeah, they're paying her an installment.
Speaker 2:She starts getting a little bit again, a Fraction of what she is owed and she has to go through so much legal Drama, like she has to enlist a lawyer and so much go through. But. But I think the bonus of this is, after going through the mediator, they agree to go to therapy separately, that her parents would go to a therapist and then her and Derek would go to a therapist and Eventually those two therapists could kind of work together to help them. That never ends up happening, but I think that this horrible incident led to her going to therapy, which was ultimately good.
Speaker 2:Which was ultimately good is a great thing, because you can definitely tell she has been Therapized throughout this book and it's probably helped her a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably honestly helped her survive. Yeah like literally yeah. So in chapter nine, you know, this is where you see like the chain start to fall off. So they decided they make the decision to send their son the pipe to public school. There's, you know, for many reasons there's a lot of like this is a huge yeah barrier that she was able to cross. She post a photo with a pina colada. Mm-hmm, this is very dramatic.
Speaker 2:Barry, jim Bob offers to put Derek in rehab, even though Derek Holding up here and Jim Bob is like, hey, do you want us to send Derek to the rehab? We sent Josh to you. First of all. It's like, yeah, cuz that worked out so well, that's clearly an effective. And also, yeah, she Jill is like Derek has never had more than two beers, you know, in one sitting. He's never been drunk. You know, we rarely drink, we just have it every once in a while, and so no, he doesn't need to go to rehab at the very beginning.
Speaker 2:If you live in a black and white world, you know one drink is equivalent to being an alcoholic, whereas, luckily Jill has found, you know, I can have a pina colada on a date night with my husband and and it's not gonna make me an alcoholic or kill me, you know, I find I have one drink or whatever. I'm a grown-up, yes, I'm an adult, but I thought that was. That was just almost sad Last-ditch effort.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, so right again.
Speaker 2:Josh is not in any sense Rehabilitated, and he's been sent away so many times, so maybe it's time to find a new.
Speaker 1:Right, it's just like this. All of this is just continuing like the more free that Jill gets, the more it drives a wedge between her and Jim Bob and there's just an extreme lack of understanding. And Then that she kind of chronicles their experience in therapy with their therapist, ray, and like some of the things that he's, that she's learning through therapy. And then Josh is arrested for Having child sexual abuse material. Yes, so this obviously is like another huge.
Speaker 2:This is the bombshell for sure, not that we didn't know about it, but this is the moment of there's no going back from this. Like they survived so many scandals with Josh and the shows been able to come back, but this, there is absolutely no. This is breaking that. That tie forever for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she is. She's interviewed by Homeland Security. Yes you know, really terrible. She talks about the trial a little bit. She finally calls I blp a cult in this chapter, mm-hmm, which was great. And After Josh is convicted and sent to prison you know that she's like they were able to put out a public statement. Is she and Derek saying like we think this is the right choice and like maybe he's finally where he?
Speaker 2:belongs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or he should have been along. Yeah, and she talks about also, you know, being she potentially could have been called as a witness in this case and so she wasn't allowed to attend the trial. She wasn't really supposed to consume any information about it. And then she attends one day and I mean, if we don't need to talk about what Josh did, but it is genuinely horrifying if you do look into it. I mean, it's obviously all child abuse materials, whatever is bad. But anyways, I wouldn't recommend looking into it.
Speaker 2:But I'm saying, I really wouldn't she hears about it and I just can't imagine. I just, yeah, she's like I've heard enough. You know he's, he is a monster and he has been abusive his whole life. And I mean, you know there is no Like Josh's is a monster, but her dad gets on the stand and defense him.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, and that's like another thing where she's just like you have gone and bent over backwards, contorted so many times to protect Josh and like look at me, I'm at one of my shop liver like this Sucks, I'm one of his victims. Yes, like we all have small children, he has like.
Speaker 2:This is just well and it's um. You know there's one scene I think it's after Ashley Madison, so it was earlier in the book after that scandal leaks where Jim Bob is, you know again just bending over backwards to make sure the paparazzi don't figure out where Josh is and what rehab he's gone to. And you know they're like sneaking him in the dead of night and hiding him away. And it's like then, when she's being harassed by paparazzi About abuse she suffered when she was a child. There is absolutely zero protection of her and it's just.
Speaker 2:It's obviously there's a double standard, but it just becomes more and more clear to Jill and it's devastating. I mean, I can't imagine what that would feel like of you know you're, you're literally, you know taking private planes and Leaving at 2 am so that Josh can have privacy, even though he's the one who's done everything wrong. But you want me to go on TV and you know, retraumatize myself for him. So he's facing consequences that he should have started facing when he was a minor, you know, but he never faced any consequences for anything right.
Speaker 1:He was enabled, yeah, jill says. Before this latest scandal there was part of me to hope Josh would change, or that at least he might want to change. But as the truth about his actions had emerged I had become concerned for who else might become a casualty If he was allowed to continue on as he was. In the world. It was becoming increasingly clear that the safest place for Josh and those around him was prison.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Amen. So she kind of wraps up the book with the epilogue and she discusses kind of the consequences of this journey. She's been on some of the positive consequences so, one being that some of her younger siblings have started coming to her and ask I mean she doesn't reveal their identities, but to ask questions and advice, to kind of hear her side of the story and that she has pioneered this path forward so that other people can break out of cycles of abuse.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm which I think is lovely. She has another child, mm-hmm, and when she has her other child she kind of ends the story, her book, with the story of her parents coming over, including her father, to meet the baby, mm-hmm, and, kind of you, small steps forward to creating a healthy, boundary filled relationship with her dad.
Speaker 2:I would imagine that this book has set that back significantly. But yeah, I Think it's for the best. I don't think you like she doesn't. I think she's come to a place of I don't know Jim Bob anything. He was abusive to me at one point. She calls him abusive and he completely freaks out. But you know she doesn't owe him privacy. She doesn't owe him Discussion. She doesn't owe him, you know, sacrificing her own story over, Like keeping him in a good light. So I think that's fine. You know, if he doesn't want to have a relationship with her, then that's his own choice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she's starting to learn how to hold two things at once, and that people are complex and relationships are complex, and that you know she wants to hang out with her family. If she wants to see her dad, she can, but it's on an obligation.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it doesn't mean that she has to follow off his rules. And you know, if he doesn't and you know, apply that condition, then she doesn't have to follow it. And so, you know, she's still working through a lot, but she's learning how to build her own life on her own terms and it means that, unfortunately, her relationship with her family is pretty much forever not be the same. But yeah, that's okay, yeah she ends in a happy and in a kind of a peaceful place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, any last thoughts I.
Speaker 1:I um, last thoughts. I mean I think that I there was some stuff in here that wasn't new. There was some stuff that I think was new or absolutely helpful to hear from her perspective, and that I just I commend her bravery. It's really really hard to break the mold and to Follow your arrow where it goes. When there's a lot of expectations for white, you know who you should be. And yeah, just kind of circling back to our previous conversation, like sure she still has a long way to go and there are some things that she believes and upholds I think I don't agree with, but it's cool that she's on that journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you know I've seen this with friends. I'm sure friends have seen this with me. You sometimes see people along the journey and You're like, well, I don't, I don't know, you can, I don't know how to say what I'm thinking, but like, maybe I'm ahead of you on this path and I am already Thinking something completely different and you're somewhere, you know, along that road. But it's cool to watch people get to the next place and I hope that Joe continues so she can get to that next place. But I mean, I think even with friends, you know, sometimes I Think, you know, things are really polarized in our society.
Speaker 2:That's such a cliche thing to say. But If you stick with people obviously not if they're actually harming you or you know doing something that is directly harming you so don't stick with the Jimbops of the world. But if you stick with people, you get to also watch them grow, and that's a cool thing to do in Relationship with people and I've done that with friends. I'm sure friends have done that with me, because I've changed and I've grown, and so I don't know. That's what I'm saying. If you have a Jill in your life, you know you don't have to agree with everything, but you can try to help them along their path and and that's cool to be able to watch people grow and change.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's it, that's lovely.
Speaker 2:Thank you, jill.
Speaker 1:Thank you, jill.
Speaker 2:I'm Doug Riddiller and I would say again, I really recommend reading this book. It's very short and there's all probably a lot we didn't even get to talk about, so but yeah, there's a lot we played over, so yeah, if you are. If you were interested by this podcast. Obviously, we revealed a lot of the stuff you talked about, but I think it's definitely worth it if you can get it on Libby or something. Just eventually give it a read.
Speaker 1:Um, emily, we are at an hour and 23 minutes. Do you want to talk about a book we've read recently, or let's save it honestly.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's look at most recently read. I didn't really even like that much, though.
Speaker 1:Okay, great cool. Catch us in the next episode. We're doing our much anticipated spooky season 2024 episode. Yes so we will be talking about that. We'll see you then.
Speaker 2:All right, bye.
Speaker 1:Oh.