The Readirect Podcast
Interview with Jennifer L. Armentrout
Join us for a very exciting interview with NYT bestselling author, Jennifer L. Armentrout! Jennifer is the author of the renowned 'Blood and Ash' series, and she's here today to discuss her newest release, A Fire in the Flesh, book #3 in the prequel 'Flesh and Fire' series.
We're discussing world-building, writing a prequel series while simultaneously writing the original series, BookTok and more!
Tune in for this conversation!
Join us for a very exciting interview with NYT bestselling author, Jennifer L. Armentrout! Jennifer is the author of the renowned 'Blood and Ash' series, and she's here today to discuss her newest release, A Fire in the Flesh, book #3 in the prequel 'Flesh and Fire' series.
We're discussing world-building, writing a prequel series while simultaneously writing the original series, BookTok and more!
Tune in for this conversation!
Welcome to the redirect podcast. My name is Abigail.
Speaker 2:Sheehan and I'm Emily Rojas. The redirect podcast is a show where we shift the conversation back to books. We discuss themes from some of our favorite books and how those themes show up in real-lived experiences.
Speaker 1:In today's episode we interview the number one best-selling author of the From Blood in Ash series, jennifer Armin-Trend.
Speaker 2:But first, before we get to that very exciting interview, if you enjoy the pod, we would humbly ask that you support us in a few simple ways. First, you can leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or anywhere else that will. Let you give us a five-star review and let us know how much you love our show, and we'd also love for you to follow us on Instagram at redirectpodcast.
Speaker 1:And finally, if you really, really really love the show, please share our show with a friend. Sharing our show with a friend is by far the best way to help us grow our community and obviously, very exciting things are happening because we just interviewed a number one New Yorker and best-selling author. So, oh my god, emily.
Speaker 2:Hi association. We are also number one on the New York Times podcast list. I don't make the rules, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Yeah, Wow, so yeah, before we get to that, how's things going?
Speaker 1:Oh my god. Well, honestly, I am so emotionally, I've been on so many emotional highs recently. First of all, I'm not finished with Iron Flame, unfortunately, so we can't fully find it. I know me either, but I'm close.
Speaker 1:Because, a lot of stuff happened last week, like I had a choir concert last week that I was a part of, and that was like on Wednesday, when the book came out on Tuesday and I had my dress, so I couldn't start it till Thursday, and then a bunch of other stuff happened, like I'm going to end all of it, but and I'm only reading it I'm not listening at all, so I'm like two thirds of the way through. But our next episode we will have like a dedicated conversation. Yeah, we must, but obviously that's been a lot of emotional highs and lows. Yeah, also Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2:Say no more. Say no more.
Speaker 1:I have been having like. I had an episode when I when I started getting all the content about Karma as the guy in the chiefs oh, yeah, you tell you. Yeah, my emotional well being is so unhealthfully tied to this woman.
Speaker 2:I know what you mean and I didn't even think I cared that much. But I have watched that moment and then her running off the stage. I have watched that from at least 40 different angles and every time I see it I watch it again on Twitter and Tik Tok, on Instagram. Every time I've seen it and I'm like I didn't even think I cared. But I really do, I don't know, I know you don't care too much.
Speaker 1:I care so much. I didn't think I did either, but holy God, I feel like I'm sick.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a lot of highs, a lot of lows. So, honestly, when people ask me, like what?
Speaker 1:have you been doing that? Like I know that sounds absolutely ridiculous, like, well, I have this friend, this has been a big moment in my life.
Speaker 2:Her name is Taylor, it's just been so. Look, it's been so long since I can perosocially care about Taylor Swift and who actually cared about Calvin Harris at all, but that was the last time that we had any kind of real content from her relationship wise, honestly, or at all, like she's pretty much been quiet, and now all of a sudden we're getting her at football games, we're getting her running into the arms of this like extremely tall man, I mean, you know again, if someone has the romance novel about this, that's actually good, but please honestly send it to me. I will inject it straight into my veins because I would read it.
Speaker 1:You know I haven't checked, but I'm sure, like on a03. Oh, I know there are some.
Speaker 2:I said a good one. You know who's going to write this, though. What's her name? Um, what's her name? Funny, you should ask in once more with me. Oh, I want to say Elsie, but it's not Alyssa. Yeah, sussman.
Speaker 1:Sussman, come on the pond, I know she's working on it.
Speaker 2:She's got that ongoing because this is exactly the kind of thing she would write, so I need her to.
Speaker 1:I just it's been a lot Actually. Okay, let me indulge me really quick, because whenever, like they first started dating one of my friends, nikki, shout out Nikki, if you're listening post it like sent something in our book club discord and was like, does anybody have like a sports romance? Because, like, I need more of this in my life, uh-huh, um. And then someone said something. So let me find that really quick, but carry on. How have you been? Well, while I look for this?
Speaker 2:you moved, I moved, I started a new job today. Wow, I a lot going on. Like you said, it's also been a lot going on. Um, taylor Swift, obviously it was my birthday, um, yeah, so I too, it was your birthday. Yes, so I too. I'm only about two thirds of the way through. I'd say I'm in flame, I'm working as fast as I can, but again, yeah, moving, I think. Schedule next.
Speaker 1:We just have like a book talk episode and we just talk about our and we're just going to be. We have a lot of. We have a lot of stuff to catch up on.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things to say.
Speaker 2:So we'll be discussing that. We will in great detail, don't worry.
Speaker 1:But if you have anything you want us to discuss in the meantime, let us know.
Speaker 2:Let us know at redirect podcast on Instagram yes, I was trying to think I read uh, sorry to segue before we get to our interview about sports, um, sports, I read this book, sports romance books. I read a book about hockey. It was a hockey romance. I speak no, not the that one that one's like infamous, I feel, but this one was about a. It was a neurodivergent girl who ran the social media for this hockey team and she obviously falls in love with one of the guys. I'm trying to find it.
Speaker 1:Okay, while you look for that, here are the recommendations that I got that we got on our group chat from my friend, hannah, who, hannah will be joining us for a very exciting episode towards the end of the year. Um, she's amazing at dollhouse books on Instagram, but, um, she said IDK what sport he plays. Hello, well, she's a big, doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:But some sporty romances I've liked that maybe you'd want to check out are the Briar you series by L Kennedy, icebreaker by Hannah Grace, the wall of Winnipeg by Mariana Zapata and literally any other book by Mariana Zapata. Oh, and the off campus series by L Kennedy. Okay, I can't, those are great. I'm going to call it the Brown sister. Yes.
Speaker 2:So I, the one I read, was called always only you by Chloe, lisa, lisa and I. I liked it, but what's cool about it? And I haven't read the rest of the series, but I'm looking at it and there's actually seven, or there's six and seven that was about to come out, and they all are about different brothers.
Speaker 1:Um. I love that.
Speaker 2:So yes, it's very like the Brown sisters, it's very. Yes, so it's called the Bergman brothers series. So this is that one I read is actually number two in the series, but you don't have to, obviously, read the rest. But that is a hockey romance if you're into that, um, but again, I want like a famous pop star and an NFL football guy.
Speaker 1:That's what I want it has to be a trailer traveler um coated yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right. So now, why are you listening to this? We're here to talk to an amazing author Like Abigail said, number one New York times bestseller multiple times, jennifer Armin trout. She writes young adult, paranormal, sci-fi, fantasy and contemporary romance. She's published with tour, harper Collins, avon and William Morrow, entangled teen and brazen, disney, hyperion, harlequin, teen and blue box press, and her most recent book, which we're here to talk to her about today, is a fire in the flesh, which is the fire and flesh series, book number three. That's a prequel series to her blood and ash series, which you definitely have seen before. So a little bit about that book.
Speaker 2:The only thing that can save the realms now is the one thing more powerful than the fates. After a startling betrayal ends with both Sarah and the dangerously seductive ruler of the Shadowlands, she has fallen madly in love with, being held captive by the false king of gods, there is only one thing that can free Niktos and prevent the forces of the Shadowlands from invading Dallas and igniting a war of primals. Convincing Colas won't be easy, though, not even with a lifetime of training, while his most favored revenant is insistent that she is nothing more than a lie. Colas's erratic nature and twisted sense of honor leave her shaken to the core, and nothing could have prepared her for the cruelty of his court or the shocking truths revealed. The revelation's not only upend what she has understood about her duty and the very creation of the realms, but also draw into question exactly what the true threat is.
Speaker 2:However, surviving Colas is only one part of the battle. The ascension is upon her and Sarah is out of time. But Niktos will do anything to keep Sarah alive and give her the life she deserves. He'll even risk the utter destruction of the realms, and that's exactly what will happen if he doesn't ascend as the primal of life Yet, despite his desperate determination. Their destinies may be out of their hands. But there is that foreseen, unexpected thread the unpredictable, unknowable and unwritten. So that's a little, and I apologize if I mispronounce those things. You know, you just read these words and you have no idea what they sound like. And look, here's the thing.
Speaker 1:We understand this is the third book of a prequel series, of a series that you may never have even read before, but this is a spoiler-free and beginner-friendly interview.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Anyways, after listening to this interview, I think you're definitely going to want to pick up the Flesh and Fire series and the Blood and Ash series, because it's definitely very intriguing, very exciting. So, without further ado, let's welcome to the pod Jennifer Armintraut.
Speaker 1:The first thing that we ask any guest on our show is to tell us a little bit about your reading preferences. Who are authors that inspire you? What are some of your favorite books? If you had to give us, like, maybe, a top three?
Speaker 3:First, thank you guys so much for having me here tonight. Oh gosh, it's so hard to pick. Like the top three, I think I have to kind of go with books I read when I was younger that inspired me to be a writer. I'm going to read a book by LJ Smith, who wrote the Vampire Diaries and the Secret Circle, dating myself all the way back in the 90s, and Joanna Lindsay, the historical romance old school bodice rippers basically the classic.
Speaker 3:And I would say, like someone new now, it's always a toss up between, like Larissa, ion, jair Ward, sarah Mass. Like you know, they would probably be in there too.
Speaker 1:That's great. I think that honestly, for like for our listeners who are familiar with your work, that makes a lot of sense. What you just said you can definitely see like the origin of a reader coming out in your life as a writer. So I'm glad that we started with that question, so also the reason that you're here. You just released a new book. Tell us about that, about your new release. Third and the Fire and the Flesh, or the Flesh and Fire series.
Speaker 3:That's okay. I, oh my gosh, you didn't even have a time to mess up that name. I used to call it the flame in the fire or fire in the flame. And I was like well, yeah, there is a fire in the flame, and so I don't even know how that started happening.
Speaker 1:You can't even be mad because the third book in the Flesh and Fire series is called a Fire and the Flesh. So but tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker 3:So, yes, it's the third book in the series, which is a prequel series to the Blood and Ash series. It picks up where a light in the flame left off, like immediately picks up you. This book will answer questions that readers may have had while reading. You know the previous books in the Flesh and Fire, but also questions from the Blood and Ash world. You know there are going to be things that some people probably expect to see answered, that they'll have, and then there's going to be a few, you know, reveals you might not see coming. So there's definitely. It has a lot of information in it and you know you're going to get to see Sera. You know have to be to kind of find like the inner strength with the situation she's in and you're going to get to see Polis now for real, because I feel like you only really heard about him and seen brief instances of him, but you're now going to actually get to see him and how his court is. And so I mean there's there's a lot that happens in this book, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So I was wondering what is it like? Obviously you're writing, like you said, the Blood and Ash series and kind of this prequel series almost simultaneously, or they're coming out kind of every you know back and forth. So what has that been like, kind of writing both series at the same time? Has that been? I mean, I'm oppressed how you can keep all that straight in your head. But what has that been like just kind of writing both while they're not completed series yet?
Speaker 3:Well, you know there's, there's the pro of it, right that like you're dealing in the same world and so it's not like you're having to jump into a different like series or anything like that. However, it can get difficult because you know you only can retain so much information, even if it's stuff that I've created you. You just can't, you don't have the brain capacity for all that. So there's moments where I'm like, oh shit, did this happen in Blood and Ash or did this happen yet? And then you know, yeah, where you're just like I don't remember. And so, luckily the copy editors, they create a Bible, basically. So anything that really happens, anything major in the series, they add to this Bible. So if I'm not 100% sure, I can refer back to the Bible, because it also has like a timeline of events, because yeah there.
Speaker 3:There's moments where I'm like did, is this something we knew Do?
Speaker 1:you know how many of your readers would love to get their hands on that.
Speaker 3:Well, they are getting that basically in February. So vision is to depend on and it we. The basis of that was taking the Bible and then retelling it in as Miss Willa. So you know, making this kind of, you know, a little bit boring information, because you know, for us it is because it's just like bullet points and putting in a narrative for me.
Speaker 1:That's like incredibly valuable, though. At my local indie bookstore there's a whole section of just like reference guides and like appendices for like people who like are that level of fan and need like the timelines, the graphs, the pronunciation guides, all that stuff.
Speaker 3:Because it's a little like for a reader to remember to it's like you know, so it's good to refer back to something.
Speaker 1:To that point, because we're talking about, you know, writing the prequels at the same time as writing a series. Do you, for some of our listeners who's maybe never picked up a book of yours before, do you suggest starting with the prequels, reading in chronological order, or do you have a suggested reading order?
Speaker 3:You know there is a suggested reading order. However, it really like if you're now just starting to read, I would think take the suggested reading order and throw it out the window, because you know when the suggested reading order is done, it's done and you can sit thinking that you've already read, like the blood and ash. So what you could do is you could start with flesh and fire, because the last book in that series will come out, you know, before the next blood and ash book does. So you know you could, you know, read that and then start the blood and ash. Now, by doing that, it's going to probably give you a leg up on some events in the blood and ash world where you would start being like, oh, this is starting to sound familiar, like I think this was, you know, set up in flesh and fire.
Speaker 3:So you can. That would be my suggestion. But ultimately, if you wanted to start with from blood and ash, you could do that and I think that, like once you got to like the war to Queens or the crown of Gilded Bones, I would then read, like you know, the books that are available in the flesh and fire series before you read the war to Queens, because you know there's going to be some characters you're going to be introduced to that you will recognize in that series.
Speaker 1:So I'm really glad you said that, because that kind of segues into what I wanted to ask you next. So you've alluded to this a little bit like keeping being able to keep things straight. But how do you manage some of the big plot twists, like when you are designing the plot for the prequel series, when you know that the readership already knows what happens in the quote unquote future, like the future of this world? So, for instance, keeping it spoiler free but without naming any characters. Let's say, if one of the characters appears to die in the prequel series, but they you know, but the readers know from the main series that this person didn't die because there was a child that was born from them or they, there was some other effect of their life. How do you like, how does that process work in your mind about like keeping the plot twists and the big reveals interesting for the readers when they know like a reflection of what happens in the future?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's like the one thing with the flesh and fire series is that like, well, you know, obviously, like certain people have to make it out of this, right For there, for there to be whatever, but it's, I think, we're the interest comes in. Excitement is that you don't know how, because the odds seem so stacked against this happening. But then there's also things in the blood and ash world that really don't hinder so much on certain characters being alive. But you're like how, why is it this way? Like why is it this one character not known? And and then there was, you know, there's that that I think people are also searching for, is learning, like what was it about that that calls this? But also there's, you know, there's always like the plot twists, right, but then there are these little tiny ones that I don't think the reader really sees coming, and sometimes they don't even catch it on the first read through, or they catch it on the next book and they're like wait a minute, this sounds familiar.
Speaker 3:And then they go back and it's actually there. That, I think, is also what keeps it going. Is the you know, because you just don't know how this worked out.
Speaker 2:Right. I think those are almost sometimes the more interesting plot twists anyways, like those sneaky little ones that you're not expecting, like sometimes you know, okay, I have a feeling there's a huge plot twist coming, but then the authors can sucker punch you with another one before you even get to that one.
Speaker 1:So it's like a little week from the author. Yeah this is for the people that may not catch it. And it's like cool, if you don't catch it, like you'll still enjoy the books and if you just want to like read through once, whatever. But there's this. Do you feel like you have that relationship with your fans where it's like oh, this will be fun, like let's see if they pick this up?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, definitely so in the Facebook group of Jaylanders where a lot of the readers kind of hang out is. You know, I'll sometimes give them hints for things to look, you know, like Easter eggs, like things to do. But yeah, like they, like they'll. They always have like their theories and like their speculation of what's going to happen. And sometimes they're on point, like to the point where you're like, damn, you know. Other times what they're saying doesn't happen, but it's such a good idea that I'm like, why didn't I? Maybe I should.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And then I'm like yeah, what book are you reading?
Speaker 1:I'm saying, like fans should like lurk and read a thread and put right manifest things that they want. Put it out into the world and maybe it will come back to you, because maybe Jennifer L Armentral will read your Reddit.
Speaker 3:I wish that would be the case, because, unfortunately, though, like the ones that I'm like oh my God, that's such a good idea it's like I've already gone too far down the road yeah. It's like some of them, their theories are so good that I'm like I hope you eventually write yourself right, because? Like, yeah, like that's not going to happen in this book, but it's yeah, I like reading that kind of stuff because it is interesting to see them kind of connect.
Speaker 2:I always wish more authors would expand their worlds like you have. Like, it's just so great. You know you get attached to the characters or the world and then it's just over in one book or two books. So what in particular, has drawn you to continue to write within the same worlds? I think you've done that multiple times throughout your career. So, like, what is it that draws you to doing that?
Speaker 3:Well, I think with other series it's because, like you get to explore the characters more to like one thing is ultimately, at the end of the day, I write romance and one thing I find when you're writing a book series, that's a romance. There's almost like this formula of where, like the couple in the first book spin the first book realizing they might like each other, the second book they get together, but they're split up at the end of the second trust me, I do it myself Then the third book you know, half the book are not together and then they get together, then the series ends right.
Speaker 3:So it's like, oh, I didn't even get to spend in town with them together and I like it when you get to see the couple together facing things together, obstacles together versus the you know that formula of feeling almost like you didn't get to see them working together.
Speaker 3:So that's one aspect of it, and another is like when you're working in the same you know, especially when you're working in fantasy, fantasy there are a lot of tropes in fantasy, right. However, fantasy there's a lot of similar tropes through all the fantasy books because of just how the genre is kind of designed. So if you're writing a new fantasy and you already have fantasy series, it can be very difficult to build a whole other additional world that is. You know that doesn't work Well, everything because there is and there's a lot that you can do with writing, right. But when you get down to the nitty gritty, if you're writing in a similar type of fantasy, you do start to limit a little bit. So I think sometimes staying in the same world but you're expanding it to where it almost feels like you are in a different world, can help it stay new and fresh and for both you as the author and the reader.
Speaker 1:Yes, I wanted to pick out something that you just said about tropes in fantasy and romance and in romanticy. Through your series you employ some really fun tropes Friends to lovers. You have enemies to lovers. You have arranged marriage, slash marriage of convenience. What is your favorite to read and what is your favorite to write?
Speaker 3:My favorite to read and favorite to write is the same is enemies to lovers.
Speaker 3:That is always my favorite because it gives a chance for a lot of banter, and you know I love writing banter, I love reading it, and that just sets the groundwork. And you know one thing with writing, every genre has tropes, right, like if, mystery, suspense, thrillers, they all have their own set of tropes underneath them. And, like you know, I will say like, I feel like romance probably has the most tropes that you can go with, but enemies to lovers, I just always find that just you know the best, just drugs, and I like the push and pull effect that you can get with that, like where, especially when you start off, like where one or both characters really do not like each other, there's a. It's fun like that.
Speaker 1:So Emily and I have talked before about the tension and the difference between like truly enemies to lovers and rivals to lovers, and the difference between like sometimes you read a book and the people are so mean to each other you're like to start, you're like how could you ever fall in love? And so we like to talk, we like to say rivals to lovers more than enemies to lovers, because you still want there to be that like the tension yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think, though, it's like you can have characters who genuinely do not like one another, or like maybe you're plotting to kill the other one. See, they'll like, they'll be like that right, wink, wink, right, but there is a limit. I mean this is me personally, and this is not the same for every author or what you like to read, but for me there's. There is a fine line you want. Because yes there are, like you know, like, look, one of my things I will read sometimes is fully romance, right?
Speaker 3:I've read a couple of them, and you know only a couple of them because some of them you know kind of. There's that fine line where it's like someone needed to call the police here you know what I mean. Where this is. That is just like where certain things are done, where you can no longer suspend reality, I guess.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And then the situation. So I do think it requires a fine walking of a line. Now, here's the thing though dark romance exists for a reason where that line is kind of obliterated.
Speaker 2:And then you know goes beyond.
Speaker 3:But, like I do think, if you know, depending on what you like to write, what you like to read, there is a fine line that you have to navigate there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, before we. I totally agree, and you're right, it's like if you're gonna go one way or the other. I feel the same way, like if there's gonna be a dark romance or it's gonna be enemies to lovers or you know whatever. Before we move on, I wanted to ask another specific question about the Fire and the Flash series.
Speaker 1:So Poppy and Zira obviously have a lot of similarities, which is really cool and it's a really cool wrinkle in the universe. I think it's something your readers have really really enjoyed. Both of them are kind of learning about the magic of the world and like some like there are things that are being revealed to them through the story and from a reader's perspective, I think that's a cool way of trying to also teach the reader about the world and build the world without just being like here's four huge blocks of text about like the rules of this universe and like what is a primal and what is a God and what is a court and all that stuff. So from your perspective, as an author who already knows all the rules of the world, like is it hard to hold yourself back from just kind of dumping all that information up at first, or do you enjoy the pursuit of educating the reader through also educating the main character.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it can be hard like not just to be like let me get this out of the way you know and like set this type of setting or reveal something that often will change, like the course of the series or characters. So it can be hard to do that and I feel like for most readers, for writers, there's two ways to do it. It's like where you drop the reader into an established world where all the characters are established and they know everything. And that can be a little bit more difficult in high fantasy Because, again, you've taken into consideration that the reader is now learning this world while trying to learn these characters, while also trying to follow a plot. It can be a lot if you're unfamiliar with everything. So that's one of the techniques of having them discover or pull back things, as the reader does. So I like that technique with fantasy, especially if it has a lot of world building in it. It's just because it becomes a lot for a person who's reading to follow and to stay engaged with.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Because eventually you're kind of like you check out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're just kind of like I don't know how to say these people's names. I don't know what bloodline they are, I don't know where we are, yeah, so you just kind of lose too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, abbey and I are pretty recent fantasy converts, I think, and so, yeah, there are definitely different types of fantasy books that are just probably too much for our infant fantasy brains. But then some of them, like you're describing, if it comes a little at a time, it makes it a little easier to get into it and then, once you're into it, it's like OK, bring it on. So, speaking of your world building, we wanted to ask about your process of world building. Like, do you kind of talk things out with your friends or do you have some kind of visualization or timeline or writing things down? What's kind of your process behind that?
Speaker 3:So a lot of it like I'm not a heavy plotter other than, like I know how stuff begins, like where the middle part would be and how things end that I know A lot of the stuff that happens in between come to me as I'm writing. I cannot like sit down for any amount of time and plot out an entire book or series, like every little aspect of it, other than knowing like the overall reaching arcs of the series. I am envious of people who can do that, who can do like 60, 70 page outlines. If I did that, I would be like, well, I don't want to write the book now Because I feel like I just wrote something. So but for me also doing it this way, it gives me a little bit of freedom to kind of surprise myself with what I can come up with. But yeah, like there are times when you get stuck, like even if it's a part that you plan, that you're writing, and you're like I don't think this makes sense.
Speaker 3:So, depending with your editor. You will like kind of hash it out with them, and it's really good if you can hash it out to your editor, Because ultimately they're the ones who are kind of in this with you and so they know a lot about what you're writing, even more so than your friends and of course, sometimes you're going to have friends who are really love doing that. And then you're going to have the friends who are like please stop talking. Like you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're just like.
Speaker 3:this is just no, Because I even have people who are friends that are huge readers, but they are not. They can't do that plotting thing right, they can't. Like their brain does not work that way, yeah, and so for me they just want you to tell it to them, yeah, and then they're like oh, that sounds good, I'm like, but it doesn't. You know, like their brains just don't dig in like that. So it really helps when you have a good relationship with an editor that you can go back and forth with them, but really for me it's always like you know when.
Speaker 3:I have to have, like whenever I need to talk to my editor about something, is like I need to have you know, fully understand what the problem is, because you know, like when you're writing, like sometimes you know there's a problem, like you know like there's there's a problem, but I don't know what it is. And that's not a good time to really talk to anybody because you're going to get your head all messed up because they're going to think it's something else that you thought was fine, and then now you're going to get even more into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're going to hear about.
Speaker 3:oh man, so it's like for me, it's like I have to really know, like when, like it is like what the problem is, before I really start like doing the hey, can we talk this out?
Speaker 1:Speaking of plotting things out and coming up with ideas, is it true that you got the idea for Blood and Ash during the 2016 Olympics? Yes, do you remember what event?
Speaker 3:Probably gymnastics, I think that's the only one. I really watch Olympics. I haven't paying attention to, because it just fascinates me that someone can do that with their body to like propel themselves feet into the air, Like it's just, that's just insane to me.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I got the idea while I was watching the Olympics. I have no idea Other than the Olympics, being Greek, started, you know, in my series having a lot of Greek inspiration or Greek myth. I have no idea how that happened, but that's the thing, like people always ask, like, how do you get your inspiration? And that's an answer right, it makes no sense, it just pops in your head Like sometimes it's the.
Speaker 3:Olympics. Sometimes it's a commercial, a song, a TV, like something you know you. It just comes out of everything and nothing at all.
Speaker 2:And so like it.
Speaker 3:just that's when the idea started to pop my head for something I do not know, but it is weird.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you mentioned Greek myth, because this was something else in our outline. I wanted I wanted to ask you about how Greek mythology informs your world building, specifically the politics and the romance of the gods and primals, and like, do you, how much, if any inspiration do you derive from that?
Speaker 3:I have always been fascinated with Greek mythology. I think it's some of the out of the most world myths that you could ever read. Sometimes it leaves you wondering like what in the world would they want when they wrote this? Because this is a wow. So I do have, you know, a lot of inspiration. But sometimes it's not very obvious, it's not very like in your face, like well-known myths, for example, or legends, you know. Sometimes it's like you know a bit of the politics, or like the hierarchy of gods, for example.
Speaker 3:You know you can see in Roman or Greek and Thai, so I do pull the inspiration from there. Then, you know, there's some myths that I kind of have in the books that I flipped a little bit. But I feel like, if you you know that you may see like, oh, I wonder if this was inspired by that. But I've always been obsessed with Greek mythology. I mean down to the point that obviously Elantis is, I mean, elantia is Elantis. Like you know, I'm playing off that myth and you know of Elantia is Elantis and you know, because that's something that even though historically it's very unlikely, anything like that existed, more likely that there was a, an island or something that existed beyond, something that likely had like earthquakes or something.
Speaker 3:And then over the years, that myth was built up, and built up you know, but there is something interesting about the idea that there was, like this other place that was so more advanced and what happened to them and that also kind of played a role in developing, you know, Elantia, and how you know in that world that they were, you know, more advanced and soulless, you know, and so so you see the inspiration coming in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes, yeah to your point. Like Greek myth is so built up and built up and there's so much content, and like literature and media that is drives from it, sometimes it's hard to remember that it's myth. You're not like. Oh, you know, achilles is like real guy, you know.
Speaker 3:And then you have Elantis right At Disney, literally has caused everybody to think that. Elantis is a place under the sea where people are like half fish, I guess, and live in a bubble, no most people.
Speaker 2:If that was real they all died.
Speaker 3:They didn't move down there. I've always like every time you bring up Elantis, everyone's like oh, the city under the sea. No, you mean the ruins.
Speaker 2:Yeah, under the sea.
Speaker 3:And they didn't just piece out, go live in a bubble. You know the myth was like. You know there was different versions of it, but you know pretty much didn't. Well for them, like it, just all collapsed Right.
Speaker 1:It's all our vibes to like Pocahontas.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like oh you're as a kid, you're like oh wow. And then as a thought, you're like oh no, yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's a lot like that.
Speaker 3:I feel like with a lot of you know especially, I feel like you know, I don't know your age, but I feel like a lot of times in, like my age group is like things that you know you saw as a kid or something, and then you know, a lot wasn't shared about it. Like you know, we didn't have access at the fingertips as a child, or even the young adult internet was just getting started. And then, but now it's like you look back and you're like, oh no, that wasn't how that happened. You know, yeah, and then you're kind of like, well, there goes everything in your childhood.
Speaker 2:That's accurate, um, kind of switching gears a little bit. Um, I think many readers would describe your style saying you never waste a page and you're definitely great at writing that dialogue and building up that tension to kind of further the plot. So, um, like, can you talk a little bit more about your use of dialogue and and you know what kind of draws you to that sort of um for method of furthering the plot?
Speaker 3:I guess I'm so glad to hear that people are like you know the way to page, because I'm like oh, thanks, yeah your books are like 600 pages plus.
Speaker 3:That's um, but, like you know, that's very flattering and I feel like it's the most offers. We always wonder, like, is this information people are going to be interested in? And the funny thing is it's always things that are completely unrelated to the plot that readers really like grab onto. And it's like you know, it's those little things, um, but like, one thing I learned when I first started writing seriously was and I don't know if this was Stephen King or somebody else who said that each chapter should have like many cliff cliff hangers. Like when you get to the end of chapter, you want to be forced to keep reading.
Speaker 3:Now, you, of course, can't do that with every chapter, but you know, employing that technique does make it a bit of a page turner because like there's a bunch of mini cliff hangers happening consistently throughout the book, which also kind of sets the pacing right. So the pacing then goes in. But one of the things that I do feel is important is dialogue, even in a fantasy a special well, especially in the fantasy because I want the readers to still be able to relate to the characters that are in a world that they don't recognize and be able to see themselves in those characters in that world. And I think that with having like realistic dialogue helps make that possible and it also opens up again for banter, the back and forth between characters. And it's like I love the TV show Supernatural, and one thing that I loved that you would find in that show is things would be going sideways right, like Lucifer's coming up the ground again for some reason, like Crawley's running around, and then somebody always has like the world's ending, but somebody's gonna say something hilarious, like there's just gonna be that person who. That's how they cope in situations like that.
Speaker 3:Like Buffy was another one that did it very well, and that's something that I tend to do in my stuff too, because I feel like those are grounding moments that allow you to kind of like take a breather, but also, again, like, I feel like we all know somebody who is that person, like they're the person that you don't wanna be sit next to at a funeral because you know damn well they're gonna say something so inappropriate that is gonna make you laugh and you're gonna be like now everybody's looking at us like grassles and it was your fault, like you know, like and those I feel like with the dialogue, that's where you get to really explore those types of characters and again it makes it like way more relatable.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, absolutely, and I think you know like we're saying, like sometimes you know a book can be 300, 400 pages and feel so long, and then some books can be close to a thousand and you've just fly through it. And I do think dialogue definitely plays a big role in that. If it's like really snappy or gripping conversations, you feel like it flies by a lot faster and you're more invested in the story and in the characters, for sure.
Speaker 1:I also think that about, like I recently I won't name the book, but I read a book from my book club that was in second person point of view and it was a lot not a ton of dialogue, a lot of the character's thoughts, and it was kind of divisive in our book club. Like this is, the people who like more of a character study liked the book a lot more and people who like more plot driven novels didn't like it as much. And I think I'm suspicious that dialogue has a lot to do with keeping the pace up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, almost really kind of strangely here, because usually, typically with second person POV, a lot of people tend to feel like they don't get to know the character as well as you do in first person, because, depending on how yeah, because depending on how second person is written is either written as like, like, where it's somebody telling a story, right, or then it's written as deep second person. I think this, what they call it, deep POV, where it's really like reading first person. It's just that you're using he or she either whatever, but, yeah, like that would be interesting, just because, like, usually you hear the opposite of that with, sometimes the first person will have, like you know, a lot of intersection and even as a writer, you have to be aware of that. Like you know, sometimes, like when I'm writing, I'll have to be like, okay, how many paragraphs has this person been thinking?
Speaker 3:Like you know, and kind of being aware of that, Because you know you can get on a roll and then not realize, oh, wait a minute, It'll be like an action scene or a conversation has taken place. But there's like a page of like deep thoughts between that response and you're like, okay, and I've done that. And then I've had to go back and be like, okay, wait a minute. I would have completely forgot what that person said after thinking all that shit.
Speaker 3:Like I would have been, like I have no idea what we were talking about. So it's like you have to kind of ask yourself what you do that because you're like that's not how a person actually thinks.
Speaker 1:So I guess, okay, you keep on giving those great segues, so you're putting yourself into your writing, like do I understand? Like would I get that if I was a reader? How do you feel that you put your own identities into your writing and into your characters? Like, how do you, as Jen, show up in your characters?
Speaker 3:and like some of your identities A lot of times, like more of my personality almost always shows up in the male lead characters. Like yeah, like, just because like it's interesting.
Speaker 3:The real world. I probably, you know I have more of that kind of often sometimes dry sense of humor, or you know well, you don't have. Like you know like be the person who's thinking something, even though I might not say it. Like you know like when something happens where not mean or anything but like when you're like again I'll use the funeral example it's like where it pops, you know you're sitting there like thinking the most this inane stuff and that kind of like manifests a little bit. But I do like do put little things of me in some of the characters, like with Sira.
Speaker 3:Sira, her like issues of anxiety and depression are things that you know I have struggled with and also before I, you know, I went to school for psychology and that's the field I worked in for time. So it's, you know, something that I have experienced in on both sides. So I like to, you know, sometimes explore that I do think you have to be careful of how much you do of yourself put into a book character, because you know that can cause, like reviews or people talking about it, to start to feel personal. So I do think that's something you're not always aware of, like when you're first starting out that, oh, this may cause this to begin to feel like a personal attack, when it's not because they don't know that you basically wrote yourself into a book, you know.
Speaker 3:So we don't know that, yeah, that's a really good point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's something that.
Speaker 3:I've never thought of, don't even realize I feel like until you have a couple of books underneath your belt, kind of, where you're kind of like you have to be a little bit careful of how much of yourself you do put in there. But it's always good, I think, to pull from things that you actually have experienced, because I think that makes it a bit more believable to people and they can then connect more so with certain things.
Speaker 2:All right. So now we have a couple more questions with our remaining time about book talk and kind of going viral on TikTok. So I guess, what is it like having a book or a series go viral on TikTok? I mean, we're both, you know, on book talk or book Instagram and you definitely can't scroll too far without finding one of your books turning up. So what has experience been like? And you know it's been a few. I think I saw an older interview when blood and ash had first kind of really gone viral on TikTok. So but now that it's been a few years, kind of what's it like and do you engage with any of that at all? Yeah, so what's that like?
Speaker 3:So you know, I feel like it's very surreal, like when something does go viral because you all because if you're usually like me, you have no idea it's going viral, like until you know because somebody else in the community will say, oh, you know, because, like I'll say, a blood and ash, it started with you know another author friend being like oh, my gosh, like they are really like and you know you're, they're talking about your book, a lot on book talk. And then I was like, okay, well, of course you're an author or a reader, you're going to see that, right. But then you know some time will go by and you would get a couple of times. But then you start getting people who you know in real life that probably are not following, like book talkers, like that everybody in the book community follows, right. That's when I think for myself it really was like, okay, maybe I need to go check this out Because, like I'm like I don't know, I wasn't even on TikTok at that time and I was briefly on TikTok for a period but I had.
Speaker 3:I couldn't stay on the app because it's not very vision friendly. Like you know, you can't maximize, you can't see shit if you got vision problems. So it just became too much for me to try to interact with on TikTok. But it was. You know, I feel like that day that you know I went and looked at it or I had a friend go look at it who had TikTok, and you know you put the hashtag in and it shows you how many times the hashtags used and I mean it was millions of times and we both were like what it's like? You know, it was like oh, holy shit.
Speaker 3:Yeah but I have been very, very lucky in my career that, like my career in YA, originally kicked off because back then book bloggers were the booktops. They were the ones who were online on blogger, twitter, tumblr, goodreads talking about books.
Speaker 2:And I know.
Speaker 3:I'm throwing out names. Young ins are gonna be like what, what's blogger?
Speaker 2:I don't even know if bloggers still exist. Young spook you.
Speaker 3:Makes me wanna Google that.
Speaker 1:Right, like yeah, zanga, I did hear Tumblr was making me talk about it. I think so yeah, yeah, but you know, unfortunately the teens are like romanticizing, like mentally ill Tumblr, I guess they got tired with that one yeah.
Speaker 3:Let me go over the Tumblr because it's a lot easier to fake something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I have fallen down those rabbit holes.
Speaker 3:I'm like, oh, my, like, no Right, Like this is not how we do this, Like it's not helping anything, but like yeah, so I was very lucky because they got behind my books you know, and started supporting them.
Speaker 3:And it was word of mouth, it was organic, and that happened again with the Blood and Asks series. It was something that I had nothing to do with, my publishers had nothing to do with, and it just took off. And I mean, that is the type of stuff that is extremely difficult to happen at all in your career or for it to repeat itself, and you can't recreate that right, you can't force that. Either it happens or it doesn't. And it's still something that I'm so like in all of, because it's truly word of mouth and I know, over the last couple of months or years or so, it's like I feel like the focus has gotten a bit negative.
Speaker 3:I feel like, with the book talk like where people are talking negatively about it, and it's like oh, I'm getting like bad recommendations hating on booktop, which I feel like you see a lot of now on other sites or you know, and it's like it's like every time I want to be like guys like this is the internet like there is always going to be Easy periods of time. There's always gonna be rougher periods of time but, like you know, I don't think that undercuts all that Book talk and the same with book bloggers have done for the genres. Right, because these were just people talking about the books they love and they still are, and you know they are, you know, spreading that with Hundreds of thousands and millions in some case, of people.
Speaker 3:So it's like you know, I do wish when people like something will happen on book talk and I, nine times a ten, I have no idea what's happening because again, a model on it and that you and again, if you've been in the community for a long time, you know that something has really kicked off when it starts crossing social media, like if it's just on book talk or just on Facebook, like it doesn't matter, like you know, I mean because it's it's probably not that big of a deal, because it hasn't now jumped social media platforms and again, if you've been around a long enough yeah. Now it's going viral like.
Speaker 3:Yeah and, yeah, it's like, I think, human nature. On all sides of that conversation we tend to focus a bit more on the negative stuff. That's human nature, but I think it's always good to remember that, like many of us, you know, you know wouldn't be sitting where we are today if it wasn't for readers getting online and or getting on a podcast or, you know, getting one to get it writing a blog Talking about your book.
Speaker 3:So it's like to me that makes it easier just to kind of cancel out, like all the other noise. That happens that people act Like it only ever happens on one site and it's like have you been on the air?
Speaker 1:That's solid, is I'm gonna go back in the day yeah right, and for all the bad, right for all the bad. I also feel like you know I assume that most of your readership are younger women, but it seems like it's the safer corner of the internet for like Girls to just like girl stuff.
Speaker 3:It is to like a place where you can love like.
Speaker 3:I feel like romance for the longest time has had to fight Right the stigma of romance and we still are finding that there is not a new in some why that there's not somebody who decided to read a book that came out in 1983 that probably had Fabio and no knock against him on the cover, but that's like there, somehow, out of everything, that's the book they find and you know, then does a whole entire thesis on romance and, yeah, and we're still, I think, come back and booktalk Helped pull back a lot of that stigma right the room. Absolutely, they were pretty much like us. We can really yeah like there's nothing to be ashamed of yeah, you know that's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can read what we like and Like, and that's it like that. We don't need to moralize that, like we don't need to read nonfiction all the time. Yeah, the classics like I like reading. Like I have like Reading Romantic. I love reading historical, historical romance. Like I just want to be cozy and kick my feet.
Speaker 3:Enjoy. Yeah, and you know you want me and I think yeah. I, because they can provide you an escape just because you need one, but they also can provide people an escape. That really means something. Yeah, to take them.
Speaker 2:Yeah a way period.
Speaker 3:I think that's so important I.
Speaker 1:Think that that is a lovely way to end the interview.
Speaker 2:We are very.
Speaker 1:Love here and it has been an absolute joy to chat with you. Where can readers write your book? Everywhere, pretty much. What else do you want them to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah it's.
Speaker 3:It's everywhere, except for, like, where they've been translated.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, jennifer, for joining us today and again. You can find her books anywhere that books are sold. So, abigail, before we wrap up, do you want to share any books you've been reading recently? Oh, I, okay, I don't think. Anyway, since we last talked, when they look at my life.
Speaker 1:I can not wait for us to really talk about it. How far along are you?
Speaker 2:pretty Sorry, pretty far I don't want to say what's happening. Yeah, I'm afraid I'm gonna be farther than you. Um, but pretty far I would say definitely, definitely two-thirds. We're probably very similar, okay long.
Speaker 1:You're, are you in part two?
Speaker 2:Yes, I've you turned the page into part two, I believe. Yes, okay, I Haven't read anything. The last thing I read for this was the woman in me.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool well, let me tell you I have gotten just sucked down this crazy rabbit hole of the Bridgerton prequels and spinoff series Amazing, and there's like the thing is it's drugs, because these are Short, they're old, so they're like readily available at the library. I got them like on Kindle and audio and I've been like like last week I finished one like every single day, like I just ripped through them and I just love it, like it's just comforting Julia.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you always know what's gonna work out, which is amazing. You have a historical element which I love and it's just like. It's so like romantic. She just kills it and I I have been getting super excited about Season three of Bridgerton, which unfortunately keeps getting pushed. I think it got.
Speaker 1:I think they finally announced it's like May of next year, but it was just like I was in a mood and I needed it. So if there are any Bridgerton fans out there who would like to read the prequels, the prequels are the Rooksby books. My favorite of the Rooksby books was the first one because of Miss Bridgerton. I highly recommend that. And then if you end up reading the Smithe Smith quartet, my favorite of the Smithe Smith quartet was just like heaven. So highly recommend and honestly dream a guest for this podcast. I would lose it. I would lose it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fame is going to our heads honestly, the fame is going to our heads now. I'm like anything's possible.
Speaker 1:She literally like. But you know what I will say. So from my little free library I got Queen Charlotte by Julie Quinn and Shonda Rhimes and I loved the show. But this book was written after the show, like the show is written first, and it was just literally all of the Same dialogue. There was nothing different, and I think for me that didn't work so much. I was like oh like I can read, I Can read the book that it's based on, but I want there to be something different, or me to get something a little bit extra.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so I didn't end up thinking that it was really worth my time To finish that one. But yeah, I've just been in a Bridgerton swirl and also I have something to tell you. Tell me my book club, for, like our Christmas or like our holiday Meeting, we are reading. There is a Talia Hibbert Christmas novella oh, what is it it's called, wrapped up in you by Talia Hibbert.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I it's. I think it's like to turn pages or something Like yeah, it's very short, but I was like need. Okay, I'm adding that to my car.
Speaker 1:You're there.
Speaker 2:Yes, I am reading it already. Like yeah, yeah, she can do no wrong. Yeah, I Love that amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, any other book news we need to cover?
Speaker 2:Probably Tune in next time in two weeks when we have our book talk episode and we are more, you know, less, going through so many life changes and more yeah, you've been going through a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I found a last dog last week.
Speaker 2:Oh, I saw that on Twitter and it was so cute. It was so cute. I was like Literally though, that was like I was not prepared for how cute the picture of the dog would be, but but listen, it found its mom, that's good.
Speaker 1:We found that, like we found the owner, which is good.
Speaker 2:Oh, good, good even better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got back to its owner and apparently the dog like had had pneumonia and she had no sick. Oh so anyways, it was like really it worked out. Yeah, it was a dog sitter that left the back door open. I.
Speaker 2:Would sue. What's worse?
Speaker 1:that happening to you or you being the dog sitter.
Speaker 2:No and I would die. Oh, there's no other option but to like turn yourself into the federal prison. Wow.
Speaker 1:All right, I hope you guys have enjoyed this episode. Thank you, bye.
Speaker 2:You.