On today’s episode I talk to Jess Steadman who is an experienced Australian primary educator. You might know her as @thesydneyteacher on Instagram where she develops resources for teachers, but I brought her on the podcast today because she recently went on a study tour of Finland!
Finland routinely tops rankings for education, yet what we know is that there is very little homework, mandatory testing and less time actually spent in a traditional classroom setting. But when Aussie teacher Jess heads into Finnish schools, what were her observations, what was different? And what are some of the things that teachers could bring back and implement into their own islands which could be transformative for their practice, academic outcomes, and the behaviours of the students we teaching.
Have a question, comment, or just want to say hello? Drop us a text!
Other ways I can support you in your teaching practice:
On today’s episode I talk to Jess Steadman who is an experienced Australian primary educator. You might know her as @thesydneyteacher on Instagram where she develops resources for teachers, but I brought her on the podcast today because she recently went on a study tour of Finland!
Finland routinely tops rankings for education, yet what we know is that there is very little homework, mandatory testing and less time actually spent in a traditional classroom setting. But when Aussie teacher Jess heads into Finnish schools, what were her observations, what was different? And what are some of the things that teachers could bring back and implement into their own islands which could be transformative for their practice, academic outcomes, and the behaviours of the students we teaching.
Have a question, comment, or just want to say hello? Drop us a text!
Other ways I can support you in your teaching practice:
Hello, wonderful teachers, welcome back to another episode of the Unteachables podcast. On today's episode I'm talking to Jess Steadman. She's an experienced Australian primary educator. You might know her as a Sydney teacher, where she does some brilliant work developing resources for teachers. But I bought her on the podcast today because she recently went on a study tour of Finland. Now, finland is always kind of like the holy grail of education. It routinely tops rankings, but we do know that there's very little homework. There's, I think, there's very minimal mandatory testing and there's less time actually spent in a traditional classroom setting. So what I really wanted to talk to Jess about was when she headed into these Finnish schools, what were her observations, what was different? And I want to talk to her about what some of the things that teachers could kind of implement into their own practice, to bring into their own islands, which could potentially be transformative for their practice, academic outcomes and the behaviors of the students that we're teaching. There is one particular insight that Jess has that is so incredibly encouraging for all of us as well. Now, just to say before I get sat on the episode, especially for the Finnish teachers who are listening or anybody who has any experience in the system. I apologize in advance if anything that we say today does not accurately reflect the system as a whole. This is intended just to be a discussion highlighting some insights and some contrasting experiences, and if we do get something wrong and of course we're not going to be able to accurately reflect the whole system please feel free to send me an angry email and I will add it onto a corrections corner right after this so everybody can hear it before they even get started with the episode. But I hope it's insightful. It was really interesting for me to be hearing Jess's insights of the system and what she observed with the system. So I hope you enjoy listening to our discussion just as much as I enjoyed having it, because, as a fellow Sydney girl, it's really nice to talk to somebody from home. So enjoy the discussion.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Unteachables podcast. I'm Claire English, a passionate secondary teacher and leader, turned teacher, mentor and author, and I'm on a mission to transform classroom management and teacher support in schools. It doesn't feel that long ago that I was completely overwhelmed and out of my depth of behavior, trying to swim rather than sink. It took me spending thousands of hours in the classroom, with all of the inevitable ups and downs to make me the teacher that I am today Confident, capable and empowered in my ability to teach all students yes, even the ones who are the toughest to reach and now I'm dedicated to supporting teachers like yourself to do the same. I created the Unteachables podcast to give you the simple and actionable classroom management strategies and support that you need to run your room with confidence and calm. So if you're a teacher, or one in the making, and you're wanting to feel happy and empowered and actually enjoy being in the classroom, whilst also making a massive impact with every single one of your students, then you're definitely in the right place. Let's get started.
Speaker 2:Jess hello, how are?
Speaker 1:you Hi.
Speaker 2:I'm well, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being here. I know that it's late there as well and you've got a little one and all the rest of it. I wanted to talk to you for a couple of reasons. I know that you do amazing work in terms of developing resources for primary teachers and everything like that. We've also recently done a study tour of Finland, which is seen to have one of the best education systems in the world, so I really want to just talk to you about your insights around that. But for anybody who hasn't stumbled across it, did you want to give them an introduction about who you are and what you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. I'm Jess, as you said, I also go by the Sydney teacher and I've been a teacher in Sydney, australia, for the last 10 years. And, yeah, as you said, I sell teaching resources on the side. So, yeah, I guess I have like a small business and I'm also a teacher.
Speaker 1:So I stumbled across you ages ago actually, and I think when you're on Instagram in that kind of teacher space, you gravitate towards people who kind of have the same context as you. And I don't know where you're from in Sydney, but just seeing your work, you have a really nice vibe and, yeah, I just really love the work that you put together for people. And I am all about not reinventing the wheel. So if you can buy somebody's resources who is experienced, and have that alleviate some of the pressure that is so apparent in the system, then why not? And I think you're doing a brilliant job of that. But I did want to talk to you about so, obviously, if you're a primary teacher, go and check out Jess's work. But I did want to talk to you about your study tour. Yeah, you went to Finland in October last, so 2023. Yeah, what? How did you get into that? What kind of things did it involve?
Speaker 2:So basically it was like a super last minute thing that I decided to do, pretty much because I have a teaching Instagram. Angela from Tours for Teachers contacted me and said oh, do you mind sharing my business with your followers? And I said yes, but I'm also going to book because her tour just looked so amazing and I've always been fascinated by Scandinavia and Finland in particular, since going to uni and learning about how it is the best in the world. So a couple months before the tour was due to leave, I booked and I really didn't know anything about it apart from the fact that accommodation was going to be paid for and that we were going to be doing school visits. So there was cultural experiences, school visits and lectures at the university with experienced educators and principals. So it was just like a completely immersive week long professional development, basically.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. What were your observations going in? Was it really obvious that? Okay, because how I picture it to be is me walking into a school and going, oh, this is brilliant. Was it like that? What were your observations walking in?
Speaker 2:So many things were like just completely mind blowing to me, but then it was similarities as well. So I guess my first observation was that it didn't matter what the weather was. The kids were outside playing and they play so much and even like, the type of play that they're engaging in is so different. So when we went to the different schools, we would be there sometimes at the beginning of the school day, seeing them play outside before school had even started, or going to other schools around lunchtime and recess and seeing them just out in the playground interacting with each other, and they just absolutely go for it. They're running on hard surfaces.
Speaker 2:If you teach in Australia that, I mean that just never happens. They're playing in nature. There's a lot of forested areas. It's not bushland like in Australia, but yeah, like forests and just climbing on things that if it was in our school context, we'd be like be careful, don't do that. They were just like kids and yeah, it was rain, hell or shine.
Speaker 2:These kids were out there, in there there's snow gear or whatever it is that they needed, and they just looked so resilient, as just people observing children in their natural habitat. That was the first thing that really struck me just how it looked like they were, I guess, and the teachers basically said unless it's minus 20 degrees, they're outside. They just have the proper outfits, footwear, headwear, whatever to be out in any environment. And that was incredible, especially in the forest school that we went to, because that was a preschool setting with like five and six year olds and they were out in nature pretty much the entire day in their little cabins with an open fire. Even so, I just yeah, I love that so much.
Speaker 2:Another thing that's really different to the Australian system is the fact that they provide all the meals, so they're really healthy. They have a canteen, the students know how to serve themselves food, clean up afterwards and they're sitting at the table with their teachers eating lunch in a lunch in a really calm and civilized way, like it's like going to a restaurant type of thing. Huge difference to Australia Like obviously we would have a canteen or something, but it's not really the same getting lunch in a paper bag as opposed to having, like a dedicated- Sit down, miel.
Speaker 1:And what strikes me about that Number one? I think I don't know if it's if it's a Finnish saying or if it's just like somewhere in Scandinavia, but it's like there's no bad weather, there's just bad clothes, and that's something that I've heard before. And when you're talking about, you know, them cleaning up after themselves and all that. I love forest school, by the way. I am such an advocate for forest school.
Speaker 1:We did forest school at one of my schools here in the UK and it was just one day a week and I work for a school where students have really complex social, emotional and mental health needs In the school environment. It is really tough. The behaviors are very, very tough. You take them out of that and you put them into a forest school or in an environment where they have that like it's all about plays and it's about exploration, it's about independence and it's just like seeing different children. So I could imagine that a system that's set up around the philosophies of forest school. You know it sounds like there's so much autonomy with them, you know cleaning up after themselves and responsibility, but then also sitting alongside their teachers and eating like that's surely going to shift the dynamic.
Speaker 2:And the teachers would be eating the same food as the students as well. And on the tour, on one of the days we actually ate the cafeteria meal and it was great. We sat with the kids. They chatted to us and wanted to know all about Australia and whether or not we were upside down in Australia, which was really sweet. So, yeah, it was just. It felt like a community that everyone was included within.
Speaker 2:And just on the point about forest schools, there's just so many more opportunities in that type of environment. The kids were telling us about how they would go cross-country skiing, to go fishing at you know, a local fishing spot and these are five and six year olds and they would, you know, have a nap in their little I mean they have a name for it, obviously, but like it's like a little hut that is completely insulated and it's really tiny, but not tiny for them and in the middle is just an open fire and it's just so cozy. But then they have heaps of outdoor time and they'll read their books and they'll learn about the alphabet, do everything that the other children, who so not all children are in that forest environment. They're sort of like we would have bush schools here in Australia, like not every school or preschool is a bush school, but yeah, like it's just completely, completely different in that sense and so fascinating to be a fly on a wall in that situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like a dream really, and the fact that they also have naps like they're five years old and it's like almost like those environments are leaning into the natural neurobiology and development and all the rest of it of five year olds, because they do need a lot of play, they still need rest, you know, so all of those things are kind of set up for them in that environment.
Speaker 2:That's so funny.
Speaker 1:You say that you sorry. It's funny. You say that you ate the cabbage yuri food as well. So how much funding would there be pumped into schools there, how? How much are schools valued to have the funding to be able to provide meals for students, and meals that are quality, healthy, that staff are happy to eat, that everyone can kind of sit around a table and be a community to eat? So even the way that education sounds like it's valued and the funding that goes into it, which speaks volumes. I think when you, when you put your money where your mouth is with education, that's where you know you see those results. I think.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I teach in a low SES area in Sydney and it wouldn't be like life changing but it would definitely make an impact to have that kind of system here, you know, in my school, because the children are eating as long as if they don't have food, but it's definitely not nutritious and it's also it's like more of like a fast living philosophy, like the kids all just chuck down whatever they have and then they'll go out and play and run around, whereas here it's more of like a slow living in a way, in that in that sort of environment where you sit down, you have your cutlery, you get your food, you sit with your teacher, you have a conversation, and it's much more of like a life skill than you know, just something that you quickly do so you can go out and play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and with the like, the modeling and stuff. So when we're thinking about the behaviors of our young people, just say if they had a really difficult time at home because if there were issues at home, if a student was struggling at home but then they came to school, where they're sitting around a table with adults who are modeling how to do certain things and how to engage in a conversation you know all the things that some young people actually don't get in their home environment. That would make a huge difference to their outcomes, their potential life outcomes, if they do come from a really difficult background.
Speaker 2:I think that what we've kind of touched on before is that I feel like the Finnish education system really levels out and accommodates for disadvantage so you know you get food if you don't have it. But also because of things that are happening in the world, there have been Ukrainian and Russian students who don't speak Finnish but have moved to Finland and are potentially in a really tough situation. But not only are they getting fed, they are also put into basically like an intensive Finnish class, and so I don't know what it is like in the rest of the world, but I'm pretty sure every teacher in Australia has had at one point a new arrival come to their class who can't speak English, and they get support on the side if they're lucky, a couple of hours a week, whereas if you go to Finland and you cannot speak Finnish, then they will put you in this class with children from all other language backgrounds as well. So there was, we went to this teacher's classroom and she was just talking us through, showing us around her room without the kids there at the time. There were Ukrainian children, russian children, an American child, children from China, and basically she just models and speaks to them and Finnish and supports them and helps to make them feel comfortable in the school environment before they then move into like a mainstream setting, because obviously if you don't live in Finland, you probably don't speak Finnish, I guess, like a niche language. So I just really love that they take the time and the resources to actually have these intensive English classes and all of the lessons that they do Obviously are in finish, and her classroom was just Such a beautiful space, like everything she had was labeled in finish.
Speaker 2:There was just stuff everywhere, but you could just see so much learning and love in that room. And you know she spoke about how the parents, like I, so worried about their children because of you know, the countries and the circumstances that they've come from, and that basically her main priority was not just to teach them finish but to make them feel welcome and to have a community that they could feel comfortable in, because they're probably bringing a lot of trauma with them and they're not necessarily ready to learn a completely new language. But the least she could do, she felt, was To make learning fun and if they leave her classroom at the end of the day with a smile on their face and we were all like basically in tears listening to this woman. So, like such amazing people, we met such amazing people.
Speaker 2:But more than that, you know she's just one teacher, but she's allowed and enabled to be in that position to help the children because the system is set up that way. It's not like she decided oh, I'm going to be. You know, a person in this position, that is every single school. So, really like combating Disadvantage, that is, like you know, in a systematic way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a systemic level, and I just love the way you said that levels the playing fields with disadvantage, and you can't take disadvantage from a young person. But what you can do is set up the environment in a school if you have the right system and the right environment to do so and the right funding to do so and and create an environment where they're actually they have more potential to succeed and you're breaking things like the cyclical poverty and welfare dependence and all of the things that we see in Australia. That's perpetuated because they go into a system where they're then Seen as the bad egg because they don't know how to behave in a way that is regulated and and it just perpetuates it and it's not good for society. It's not just not good for that young person and the class and the teacher is not good for society.
Speaker 1:And Thinking about like an I'm just going going going on a rant, but thinking about the money that we spend on people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds, who have all of those complex needs that we could be putting into Education to change the narrative for them. So we're still spending money, no matter what we do. We're still spending money, but where we spend that money matters and I think we could be doing a lot more for these young people. I mean, I don't know where you work in in Sydney and I'm not going to go into that on the podcast, but I also was working for seven years in a low SES environment in Sydney and it is tough. You know it's really hard because you don't have the resources to support the Volume of young people who need that level of support.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not just the the students that come from different language backgrounds, it's also Children with pretty like any disability. So the philosophy Of the Finnish people in the Finnish system is your local school is the best school. You don't go to another school. There aren't private schools. There might be like a religious school or like a Montessori school, but they're not private.
Speaker 2:Obviously, for that to work, you need to have support in those local schools, and that's exactly what they do. So we were able to see a support unit at one of the schools and it's it was pretty much, I think, six to eight students from physical and intellectual disabilities and Walking into the room straight away you could see pretty much one-to-one teachers aid plus a teacher, and those students were supported from the moment they came to school in the foot, like in you one when there were seven, and they'll be supported all the way up till adulthood and it's not like, okay, go to that special school three suburbs away or, you know, an hour away, your local school will accommodate for you and it was true inclusion, then isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely and Obviously, like the educational outcomes are different for those students, but they had a lot of interaction with the. I guess what you say is a mainstream part of the school. So, like with any anyone school, you would have potentially like a unit for children with disabilities. You'd have classes, teaching, intensive, finish, and then you'd have all levels in between all in the same place and I just I really did feel a sense of inclusion and the way that the teachers and the executives spoke about the way that things were structured, it was just like so logical, like, of course, why would we send them somewhere else? Why would we not want them to be in their local community? But also like so much compassion and empathy and not just China, I guess, push difficult kids to the side Everyone's welcome.
Speaker 1:Did you see? Did you see many difficult behaviors and how were they managed differently?
Speaker 2:Interestingly um, you, this is what I really liked about growing in Finland is like there were lots of things that they do differently, but the teaching styles were like pretty much the same and the teachers were doing a lot of the same activities that we were doing. I don't think that finished teachers are better necessarily, although they are better educated. They all have a master's degree. So I loved saying that. I was like, oh, I could teach here and you know we would be on the same page, and it was actually nice to say that, yeah, kids do call out. Yeah, kids do need several reminds.
Speaker 2:You know, it's not like it's a paradise over there where there's no kids. That's why, yeah, exactly. So I really liked seeing that and observing. You know, sometimes teachers were a bit exasperated when the child needed reminding three times to sit at their table or whatever it was you know. So it was like, yes, so many amazing things are happening here, but the kids are still like the same and the teachers are doing goods and things that we are familiar with and they use textbooks and yeah, so that was refreshing that that's encouraging.
Speaker 1:I think that's incredibly encouraging because, I talk about like a lot with my work. I talk about the fact that we, we can't control our system, we can't control the funding, we can't control everything kind of around us, but we can control what we do in our little islands, and it's really encouraging to hear that in Finland the system is world class. However, in the pockets of classrooms that these teachers are in, they're doing what we are capable of doing, the same things that they're doing, and I think that that's so important for us to know because it's not reliant upon OK, we're setting up a big bike, just saying something random that would require like the whole school buying in. We're not. We're not doing like project based learning for the entire school and this is set up by external parties, and like you're actually just teaching. And yeah, that's really encouraging for people to hear, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they had textbooks, they had kuhu, they had little iPads, and then there was teacher talk, there was group work. Yeah, it was sitting at individual tables facing the front of the room. You know what I mean. Like it's, they're not doing crazy STEM projects. Like you know, robotics. I mean they are, I'm sure, but if that is not why they are the best in the world because they have things we don't have I think they just have a different way of seeing education and the system is different. So when I came back, I actually said to my principal hey, you should go on this tour, because if if leaders were to see this and even higher than principals, obviously, to change the system, then we could actually make a difference. Because another thing that was really apparent was that the kids start later. They start when they're seven, they don't start when they're five, or have them forbid four and a half. Seriously, like we're setting kids up to fail when they are just babies.
Speaker 1:I'm just having my own baby. I can realize that now I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, I have a two year old.
Speaker 2:He wouldn't be ready to go to school in two years. No way, yeah. But you know, in five years, yeah, he could definitely succeed. I feel it's so interesting.
Speaker 1:We push, you know. We push it, don't we? Like with the amount of time they're at school with. I don't know if they do a lot of homework in Finland, but they go to school for a long time and do homework there at school for, like when they're very young. So, yeah, you're right, like that could have. We're going to get on to like what we could do differently, you know, but I think that's a massive thing. It's not necessarily what we're doing in the classroom, it's everything, and the way society sees teaching and teachers will be different, I assume in Finland. You know, you know, you know, you know. Definitely you don't live there, so you don't know what people are saying. Presumably, if all the funding's going there and they're seeing education differently, that would be something that's coming from the parents and from the wider society as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they see education differently from like, basically, birth to the end of your life. Tertiary education is free and you also are paid to go to university so that you don't have to work a job to live. So you know, I was just talking to some friends the other day about how they never really got a chance to enjoy uni because they had to work two jobs, basically to support themselves while they're at university, and so you know. So the thing is, you go there and you're there to learn, not to do that on the side of a part-time job, and certainly you can work if you want, but you get an allowance so that you can focus on your studies as well. So just a completely different view of education and the importance of play as well and being a child and being out in nature, not in a classroom for the entire day. We're talking to the students.
Speaker 2:When we went did one of the school visits and they were asking us how much time children spend at school and, from what I can understand, from year one all the way up to their final years of school, the amount of time you're at school increases.
Speaker 2:So when you first start, you're not there from nine till three. You might finish at one o'clock and you might, you know, start earlier or later, but you're finishing definitely much earlier. And I think it was discussed that the amount of time that a kindergarten student in Australia is spending in school is pretty much only matched by upper high school in Finland. Like you're not doing those kinds of hours at school until way, way, way later, when you're, you know, 15, 16, 17 or whatever it is. So it kind of puts into perspective like how is it that they can beat us when they're not even in the classroom for as many hours as us, because they have? But even like, aside from the fact that they're finishing school early, they're also having regular recesses. So they might only learn for an hour to an hour and a half at a time and then they'll have a break.
Speaker 1:So, as we said before, though, like they're just leaning into how the brain best learns. And you know, we work a full-time job, we're good in the morning, we're on, we're special, and this is our adult brains. And then we get to midday and we start to have a slump, and then we slump even further and then all of a sudden we're just chatting to somebody across the staff room table, if we have the time to do so, but we're just leaning into what works best for the brain, like what is going to be best for our engagement, for everything like that. And it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:I don't think that it'd ever happen in Australia or the UK or anywhere, because I think there's, in terms of us having to work full-time to parental incomes, how expensive everything is. There's no support for, like I don't know how much maternity leave you got, but like the very little maternity leave, the fact that we're pushed back into working full-time. I can't imagine having to accommodate for parents needing to be home with their children for longer and I think in Finland they get a longer time at home with their kids but I think that the whole society would need a shift to accommodate young people being at school for a shorter amount of time.
Speaker 2:And we're not babysitters, by any means.
Speaker 1:But we're treated as such sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess, from my understanding, the formal lessons might finish at one, but that doesn't necessarily mean the children have to go home at one. So there'll be other things and the schools are much more like pillars of society, I suppose. Like there's a lot happening at the school. The school does not belong to the students or the principal or the teachers. It is like a community center as well. So there's definitely not a need for Finnish parents to leave their work at one o'clock and go and pick up. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, and that is so good for teachers, because it's like, okay, you're going to teach them what they need to know and then if they're going to do robotics or swimming or whatever, like that's not up to you. Do you know what I mean? Like I think that's my interpretation of it anyway. So like there'll be other providers at the school to do things with the children, but the teachers just teach. Could you even imagine a world where teachers just teach? I just like the amount of extracurricular planning and all the rest of it that I have to do. If I could just teach, it would change the entire profession, but not only that, it would change educational outcomes.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of an over-ainter really. But also if teachers are finishing the actual formal teaching at one and even if they were doing a couple of things in the afternoon with students, that's time for relationship building, that's time for planning. There's time for all of the things that could potentially change the way that we approach teaching. And I was actually going to ask you in the next question how it's better for teachers in terms of how they're treated, because I remember you posting a massage chair in the school. So if teachers are respected in terms of, like, their planning time and all the rest of it, that would obviously have an impact on the system and how successful it is, because we're the cornerstones of the system.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So just speaking to some of the Finnish teachers, they pretty much don't take work home with them because if the kids are finished with them at one, then yes, if they stay till three, of course, that is a good amount of time to collaborate, to mark and to do planning and all of that kind of stuff. And also they don't have to write programs. Like they are not being micromanaged by their principals and writing out programs and annotating them Like they didn't even know what I was talking about when I was asking this. Like the principal was just like what do you mean?
Speaker 2:Like this is we have this, you know this book that is the standards that they have to teach and the teachers just teach this the way they want to teach this. They could go out into the forest and teach this lesson or they could go out into the computer lab or whatever and teach this. Why would I need to check how they're teaching that? So, just like admin way, way, way lower, because I'm sure I can speak for a lot of teachers. Like my program, you know, going through and annotating that and writing notes and a lot of that is for the person who's checking. It's not for me.
Speaker 1:Like I Not for the kids, or you know.
Speaker 2:Not for the kids. It's an admin task and so like just the fact that the principals trust them, that they're in the room with the children doing what they're meant to be doing and they don't have to. You don't have to hand over your program to someone who is huge. And, yeah, the massage chair I wouldn't say that the basketball ball has one, but there is definitely a space where teachers are allowed to just relax, and a lot of them have like a fully functioning kitchen. The really well-funded ones are generally in like the lower SES areas, which I absolutely love. And one of those schools that we went to had pool table yeah, massage table. They also had these little meeting pods so you could go in and phone a parent in like this soundproof pod. Yeah, it was just like really nice. I mean, not all schools are new and amazing, but it's the culture as well you can feel that was exactly right.
Speaker 1:It's not about the massage chair, it's not about the pool table. It's about the autonomy that teachers have to be able to teach and do their jobs. It's about the trust that is imparted on them and why they're leaders to be able to do their jobs and it's the respect that you know the job you're doing is very important in society and we're gonna treat it as important and we're gonna treat you with the respect you deserve. So it's not about all those little things that teachers might get. It's not about you know how nice would it be to have a massage chair, but it's about everything that that represents in the system and in society in general.
Speaker 1:And I think that, like you just have to look at the news, anything to do with teachers and the rhetoric around that is so toxic and you just have to think why. Why are teachers treated like that in our society and how would things be different if that was flipped? And Finland is a really good example of that, isn't it? Is there anything that you will definitely bring into your practice or anything you have because you've been? You were there, you know, four months ago now. Is there anything you will be putting into your practice?
Speaker 2:So definitely the breaks. I was teaching a year three class, so I only work one day a week at the moment on maternity leave. So I was teaching a year three class in the morning and a year five class from recess onwards, and the morning block with the three class was two hours and I would just, you know, in the earlier in the year, just be focusing on you know how much can I get through? Gotta get through, gotta get through. And that was the mentality that I was having. And in a low SES area where behavior is already challenging, I think that if you're trying to push something onto the kids and you are basically just trying to get through content, it's just not going to work. So, considering how Finnish teachers have so much less time with their students but get such great educational outcomes, I just pretty much just paired the lessons back and also had a break in the middle of that session, so we would do sort of 50 minutes. Then we went outside to apply ground full, you know, free player, whatever, but it was like climbing, it was running, it was doing things that were really exerting energy, and then we would come back for the next 50 minutes and it wasn't about just having the break. But I actually spoke to the children about why it is that, since I've come back from Finland, we're doing this and I spoke to them about their brain and how they, you know, needed time to process what we'd learned. We also need to make sure that we're not just sitting down for 50 minutes straight, that we want to get our bodies moving, the brain, blood pumping to the brain, all that kind of stuff. And I got a lot of buy-in because they could see that I was really thinking about them and what was best for them. But then they also got to play outside which you know, who's not going to get buy-in from that and I actually saw like a really nice transformation because in that free play I was there with them and they were like, hey, look at me, I'm on the monkey bars and it's like that thing we were talking about before in the cafeteria with the children. Just be with them in a non-educational environment. And you know I'm saying this as someone who is not their classroom teacher.
Speaker 2:So obviously classroom teachers would do this a lot more than I would. But because I was the release teacher coming in, I had two hours and once that two hours was done. I don't see them till next week. It was such a rush, rush, rush and going to Finland and seeing how it is the opposite of that, I thought you know what? I only have two hours with them in this entire week. I need to make it count, and that is not going to be achieved through push, push, push. So, yeah, I kind of reduced the amount of content that I was teaching, probably by like 70%, but it was sticking more than if I went for the full 100% of content that I had to teach them to know, and there was just a sense of calm, which was really nice.
Speaker 1:There's so much to be said, but just going deep rather than going wide, and that's exactly how I have to teach the young people that I teach because of their complex needs. Yeah, you can't like the curriculum is so big. If you want anything to stick, ticking off a bunch of different things is not necessarily going to work for every student. So, going deep rather than wide, and you might get through half an hour of content, but the content you've gotten through is actually going to be something that they'll remember. It's actually something they're going to be able to apply and then demonstrate. Which is the goal. The goal is to just give them a bunch of stuff that they're not going to be able to remember or apply, or there's no point.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So I felt like I just I slowed down and it was nice for me as well. I didn't have to, because I would plan what I thought would be the right amount and it was always too much. So I was always over planning. And then there is that little bit of resentment when you don't teach the thing that you spent really a really long time planning Like, oh, we didn't get to that or whatever, and it just sort of took all that pressure off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause I like I like rolling it in, so I plan a lot. So to say, I'll plan like five activities for one lesson and I just know we're not going to get through it, which is great, because then the next lesson I'm like, oh, it's planned, cause I can just pick up what I didn't do last lesson because we're like going deep on one thing and that's also like naturally sequined.
Speaker 1:I know we're going in like a different direction, but it's like naturally sequencing things then because it was all building towards something.
Speaker 1:So I always teach in that way, anyway, because of the nature of the kids that I work with.
Speaker 1:And what you're talking about is exactly what we said before that you're focusing on what you can focus on, which is your little island.
Speaker 1:You can't come back and of course it'd be great if people went to Finland or did some kind of school tours and saw how impactful it was to completely change the structure of the system, but that's not realistic. What is realistic is for us to be able to do small things that you said you saw transformations just for taking them out for 10 minutes, just things in our patch of the school, in our little islands of safety, which is what I like to call them that can transform not only the academic side of things and the outcomes but the behaviors of the young people that we're working with, because, of course, if we are providing that break, a structured break, if we're leaning into what they need as kids for their bodies and their brains, then naturally we're going to see a reduction of those dysregulated behaviors because we're forcing them into a hole that they. That is really restrictive and that goes against. It's an unfair expectation of what we are expecting our young people to do, sometimes in our classrooms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and maybe another teacher on this class would have already known to give them a break. Maybe that's just something that I needed to realize for myself. So I just wonder if there are people listening to the podcast, or of course they need a break, but also even if we do know they need what happens as well, though we know they need a break.
Speaker 1:Like, logically in our minds, we're like you know what this is a slog, but the pressure on us to get through things will stop that from happening. It will stop us from going with our gut and giving them the break that they need. So I think that's a really important reminder, jess, about how important that stuff is, because very often the amount of people who I speak to that say I love to do a more like holistic, trauma-informed, like restorative approach, but I've got so many things coming at me that make it feel like I can't do that, and I think sometimes we all need a reminder that it's okay for us to lean into these things and it makes us better teachers and it supports our students in ways that will then get us better results, which is what our leaders want, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and actually on that, the break is not a reward as well, it is for learning. They are learning while they are out, running, climbing, interacting with their peers. So you know that was actually something that changed as well. It wasn't like, oh you know, you didn't finish that worksheet, you don't get to run around with your friends, Like that is the child that needs it the most. So it's not any extrinsic motivation.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying to them at nine o'clock, All right, Well, you know, if you want to go out at 10, then you better do your work. You know, because I think that sometimes sport or fitness can be that. You know leverage. But this is coming from a completely different perspective of brain development and you know rapport building as well, Because that child that didn't do the work or was doing the wrong thing, you sitting them out. They're already offside if they're doing those things and you've spoken to them and, you know, tried to talk to them about their behaviour or whatever, and certainly going to fracture the relationship more if you're, then like, okay, we'll go sit over there while everybody else has a brain break type thing.
Speaker 1:Of course it's all about buying. It's all about buying. It's all about being able to get them onside.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I wanted to just say that it was. It's not something that I'm sort of like dangling in front of them. So the carrot yeah, from what I could see from the Finnish system as well is that they don't really have awards of any kind, and one of the principles even said that they don't even have sports teams because they don't have a sense of competition of me versus you or us versus them, which I thought was really interesting.
Speaker 2:And another principle spoke about how they had just started on this, their PBL, positive behaviour for learning journey. So I think it can be up to the principle whether they have rewards or not, but generally on a societal level they don't seem to be big on those extrinsic motivations, so they're not like oh you know, great job, here's a merit certificate or whatever. So I kind of took that with me as well with the brain break. It's like I'm not saying good boy, good girl, you can play. It's yeah, you know, we're stuck in that system as well. Whatever our school wants us to do in terms of rewards and awards, but at least for this activity it's outside of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. And I could sit here and talk all day about the whole rewards systems and all the rest of it, but I'm not getting that it's been so nice reliving it.
Speaker 2:I feel like I want to go back. Yeah, it's some. It's really something I would recommend that everybody does. You know it doesn't have to be Finland, but there's lots of tours out there where you can go and experience other school systems. And you might not agree with everything, but maybe that's good. You can see things that cement in your mind what you want to do and how you want to be as a teacher, but there's so many amazing teachers out there doing amazing things. So I would encourage everyone to travel and, yeah, look into study tours, of course, because it it wasn't just good for me as a teacher, it was good for me as a human being as well, to be out of my comfort zone and just see the profession through a different lens. I loved it.
Speaker 1:I love that and what I would also recommend is, if you aren't in a position to travel or do anything like that financially, what I find incredibly useful, especially if you haven't been to a lot of schools to work is to speak to your headteacher and say can I possibly go and visit a school and visit an English teacher at another school or visit a you know a year two teacher at another school.
Speaker 1:I've done that multiple times and you were saying that you might not agree with everything. Learning in the negative or learning in the positive is still learning, and I think as much exposure as we can have to the way other people you know living in their classrooms and practicing in their classrooms, the better. And yeah, it doesn't even have to be in a different country Popping down and seeing what people are doing in the classroom down the hall. To you, I think that anytime where we're seeing another teacher in action is always going to be incredibly enriching. It's so incredible that you got to go to Finland and experience that and now we have a little bit more of an insight because you were able to do that and I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much, jess. Thank you.
Speaker 2:That was really fun.