Bridge the Gap: Tech to Business Communication with Paul Croker

Luke Betteridge hosts this episode, joined by series regulars Daniel Welling and Simon Butler, with a special guest, Paul Croker from 18IT. This time we dive into the world of Virtual Chief Information Officers (vCIOs). We explore how the vCIO role is a crucial bridge between technical intricacies and strategic business objectives.

Discover the art of effective communication, translating complex tech jargon into business language, and why collaboration is the cornerstone of success.

Luke Betteridge from Inbay hosts the Cyber Anxiety Podcast, with regular speakers including Daniel Welling from Welling MSP and Simon Butler from Sembee. We created this podcast to help support MSPs through the ever-evolving field of the digital world. The goal is to give tangible tips and strategies that MSPs and others in the tech industry can use while releasing the built-up anxiety around the sector. 

Transcript

00:00:03:08 - 00:00:19:18
Luke Betteridge
Hello and welcome back to the Inbay podcast with me, Luke Betteridge. For those of us who tune into the previous episodes around the recruitment and retention, thank you very much. And for the feedback, we got a nice we had some brilliant feedback on obviously what is quite a big topic in the IT industry at the moment. But today we're going to have a slight change of topic.

00:00:19:18 - 00:00:33:14
Luke Betteridge
So firstly, I just want to welcome back our series regulars and good friends of mine, Simon Butler and Daniel Welling. Thank you for joining us again today. And we also have a very special guest with us, and that is Paul Croker from 18IT Paul, thank you for joining us.

00:00:33:16 - 00:00:35:09
Paul Croker
You're welcome. Thank you for the invite, guys.

00:00:35:11 - 00:00:42:04
Luke Betteridge
So before we sort of jump in, I don't know if you want to give a bit of a brief introduction to yourself and what you do at 18IT

00:00:42:06 - 00:00:56:07
Paul Croker
Sure. So I'm the owner and founder of a company called 18IT and we provide virtual CIO, Fractional CIO, Fractional IT Director for SMEs and MSPs.

00:00:56:09 - 00:01:07:17
Luke Betteridge
Brilliant, so before we kinda jump into the topic of like a VCIO, kind of what that encompasses I always like to ask what is it that got you into IT in the first place? I know you may have to cast your mind back a little bit here, was this...

00:01:07:20 - 00:01:24:14
Paul Croker
Listeners can't see, but I have actually got grey hair and it's there for a reason because I've been around the block a while. Basically. I think for me, when I started off my IT career, it was the fact I just liked helping people. My first role in IT was working for an accountancy here in Bristol, and they were really bright bunch of people.

00:01:24:14 - 00:01:39:10
Paul Croker
I knew everyone from a CEO at the top on the top floor down to the temporary workers or staff, and just to see their sort of looks on their faces when I could get them delivering their accounts and their account packages for their clients again, when they're up against it was was golden really.

00:01:39:16 - 00:01:46:05
Luke Betteridge
Brilliant and how did that eventually lead you to kind of owning and running 18IT? What's the story around that?

00:01:46:08 - 00:02:04:22
Paul Croker
So yeah, it was probably born really and took shape in my last corporate role when I worked for a pan-European space company. Some people, probably heard me talk about this before, it was I was in charge of the UK entity. We had two sites in the UK and I was heading up a very busy entity because we were growing.

00:02:04:29 - 00:02:25:11
Paul Croker
So we were the new kids on the block, so to speak. When I joined for the first three years they were doubling their headcount, so when I joined the Bristol site had around 40-46 members of staff, and when I left, I'd gone up to 120 and there was a site in Oxford when I joined that had around six and when I left it had around about 90.

00:02:25:14 - 00:02:43:03
Luke Betteridge
Okay, oh amazing, so you know, a lot people, you're working within quite a large company. But one of the things obviously we want to focus on today really is kind of this VCIO role and kind of what that encompasses, what that entails. So I don't know if you want to start just giving a high level overview about what a virtual CIO is.

00:02:43:09 - 00:02:45:09
Luke Betteridge
And these sort of different flavors around that.

00:02:45:12 - 00:03:15:07
Paul Croker
Yes, it's you're right, it's a massive topic. It could be as wide as it is deep, and lots of people will put different bits and pieces into it. But for me, the nuts and bolts around it is around strategic thinking. It's looking ahead. So it's not not project planning that's a run below if you look at from a hierarchy sort of structure is talking to the board to the management to get budgets aligned in the right quarter in the right year and anticipating spend, looking at processes and procedures, governance, risk and compliance.

00:03:15:07 - 00:03:39:16
Paul Croker
That's all GRC stuff and making sure that whatever systems or IT is in place is adhering to all that that the compliance certificates ISO if they've got that cyber essentials if they have that or other other flavors. And also some companies I think might even have specific contracts which will dictate to them how they work with the clients data and what that relationship looks like.

00:03:39:23 - 00:03:44:05
Paul Croker
So just making sure that all the IT is lined up.

00:03:44:07 - 00:04:00:04
Luke Betteridge
Okay. So like you said, it does encompass quite a lot there and there's quite a, you know, a lot involved in that. So when you say you're working with an MSP on this kind of what is the starting point really? Because obviously what you mentioned there I feel like is it's quite a lot to take on in one go.

00:04:00:04 - 00:04:07:02
Luke Betteridge
So is there kind of a way that you approach these is there kind of a starting point and you build up how how do you approach that with an MSP?

00:04:07:04 - 00:04:24:13
Paul Croker
Like most things, it's not one size fits all. Yes. So I normally have a discussion with the MSP, find out what, what's going on inside their world. Sometimes it can be driven by a conversation of like, we're trying to get this thing, this project signed off or we're trying to have this discussion. We know that's what they need because the noises they're making, they're going down that route.

00:04:24:20 - 00:04:43:02
Paul Croker
But we can't quite seem to get it sticky or get it over the line or get them to sign off on it or get them to have that meeting where we discuss it so I can help them with that. And I'm pardon the phrase, but get it sort of oven ready, if you will. So it lines up the project, lines up the spend and we can we can slide it through another point.

00:04:43:02 - 00:05:04:09
Paul Croker
where I've been talking to some MSP, they say look Paul it sounds really good. We get it, but we just don't have the time to do that with all the other stuff that we've got going on. Can you come in under our umbrella because we've got a part on our website where we say we do that and, and be our virtual CIO talking to our clients and looking at what we've got going on in-house here and just lining things up.

00:05:04:10 - 00:05:04:13
Paul Croker


00:05:04:13 - 00:05:27:27
Luke Betteridge
Yeah so I'd say obviously we spoke about previously just before we start recording this, a lot of MSPs already believe that they offer kind of a virtual CIO, but in actuality they're probably not offering it to the level that you are or what you believe should be done. So do you want to have a little sort of discussion around kind of what MSPs believe is involved in being a virtual CIO and actually what the reality of it looks like?

00:05:27:29 - 00:05:52:29
Paul Croker
Oh that's a that's a great curveball and one I'm sure is going to spark some interest and debate, not just with us here, but with people listening to this as well. Everyone's got their view. And I kind of look at it a bit like, you know, a bit like football, one person's offside and someone else's play on, right? So for me, one of the things I've heard people say oh we have we've got QBRs Quarterly Business Reviews and we do CIO stuff in that one there.

00:05:53:02 - 00:06:08:06
Paul Croker
My question around that would be okay but what's that like trying to get things signed off and get budgets aligned and agreed? If it's a if it's a quarterly business review for me, the emphasis is on review. Does the business understand that or are they expected to come in and review what's what's happened in place at the moment

00:06:08:06 - 00:06:10:14
Paul Croker
already.

00:06:10:17 - 00:06:27:14
Luke Betteridge
So again, yeah, it's that thing of looking at it from a quarterly perspective and rather than doing a reflection, I think on the past quarter and what's happened, you almost want to have a focus on, well, what are the next steps and what is what's involved in those next steps. And like you said from a higher level than just that simple project level.

00:06:27:17 - 00:06:40:29
Luke Betteridge
So yeah, I know, for example, a lot consultants come in, like you said, they want to put a new system in place. It's just a very basic level of what do we need, how many licenses do we need, etc., etc.. like you said you need to look at kind of a level up from that or a couple of levels up from that.

00:06:40:29 - 00:06:41:29
Luke Betteridge
Really.

00:06:42:02 - 00:07:02:23
Paul Croker
Yeah. I mean, for me it's the finances, you know, it's making sure there's enough budget in place for that at the right time. Are they expecting that spend? Have they anticipated it? And, you know, when you talk to finance people, you've got operational expenditures and capital expenditures. They might even break that down into quarterly spend, which they might have agreed on a multi-year budget.

00:07:02:23 - 00:07:22:08
Paul Croker
So there's different ways that they can they can shape all that. And that's going to be important. It's also going to be important is to what's actually going on with inside the organization from the compliance piece and making sure that whatever products are put in place is delivered to meet the needs of the business not being driven by the technology.

00:07:22:08 - 00:07:38:03
Paul Croker
And I see that quite a bit where a company will say, Well, you need this because it's the best, it's got the best reviews and it's awesome. We've used it in all these other companies, we've had no issues with it. Well, that's great. But this company that you're working with now, are they a carbon copy of all those other companies?

00:07:38:06 - 00:07:42:24
Luke Betteridge
So yeah, it's go on Daniel I feel like you've got something to add to this?

00:07:42:26 - 00:08:48:16
Daniel Welling
Well, I think I just want to call the the VAR on on this one they using Paul’s analogy I think there’s a there's absolutely a VCIO as a as a more senior version of what a a typical MSP might have the technical account manager role fulfill. But I do think that there's an awful lot of crossover here and and where where an MSP and again the review part absolutely is is in you know in practice a looking back a well-run QBR or TBR for an MSP should, should not just be about service review, it should be about creating and and and discussing a roadmap, a technology roadmap which absolutely must

00:08:48:16 - 00:09:26:13
Daniel Welling
support the the individual needs of the of the customer business. And and I think there'll be certain sizes of of the MSP customers that just won't won't sustain or or support having a higher priced VCIO service. So it's about getting the right the right level of touch, the right level of detail and and including some of the attributes that Paul describes a VCIO within the TAM slash TBR model.

00:09:26:15 - 00:09:53:08
Daniel Welling
But having a clear definition of when actually this this is now proper VCIO territory. So actually now this becomes chargeable and therefore actually is a commercial opportunity for the MSP rather than as as most consulting businesses tend to do they over deliver on the on the pre-sales and don't have a clear definition of actually now this is a chargeable bit of work rather than free consultancy.

00:09:53:11 - 00:09:59:22
Daniel Welling
I don't know. SIMON have you have you had any experiences like that with some of your clients.

00:09:59:24 - 00:10:34:19
Simon Butler
It's a difficult fine line between whether it's where it becomes chargeable or not. Obviously, I, I do the reviews with my MSP clients and my end user clients, and particularly when it comes into, you know, trying to come up with the, you know, what the future path is, is yeah, where's, where's the line between, you know, coming up with just sort of like what we need to replace this server in three years time or next year or next month depending on whether it's running Windows 2012 R2 or not, or whether we've, you know, we're looking at more strategic stuff.

00:10:34:19 - 00:10:59:24
Simon Butler
And yeah, it's it's something I think a lot of MSPs will struggle with is where it, you know, where it changes from being just a generic pathway, if you like. And to being actually more specific, that then becomes chargeable and then becomes something where it's a VCIO because it requires more higher level strategic thinking if you like.

00:10:59:27 - 00:11:25:10
Paul Croker
I think they're all really interesting points. And I think there's a there's a lot of weighting behind what you've both said there Daniel and Simon because it's it's I think it's almost like there's there's a role at every stage with all of this and you need to you need to understand why things need to change. And it's driving it with the technical with the technical almost technical elements individually.

00:11:25:12 - 00:11:44:25
Paul Croker
And does that work with that clients or do they not understand that? So what I mean that is things like as you just said, Simon, about replacing, say, hardware or replacing OS’s on systems, are they just doing that because they go look it’s going end of life and they’re like Yeah, but it’ll still work. It just means we're not going to get support for it, right? well.

00:11:44:25 - 00:12:06:12
Paul Croker
Yes. But you've got cyber essentials certification in place and that states that you have to have supported OS’s which means when you come up for renewal, those 40, 50, 100 machines will be out of scope, will be there'll be a lot of work to get those back in scope to get you certified. But also you're then breaking your certification because your OS’s are now not supported.

00:12:06:15 - 00:12:25:02
Paul Croker
What does that mean? Which contracts are now at risk? Because you haven't you haven't got that box ticked. And again, changing that mentality from a technical perspective to go look this is this is business enabling you. You don't have the certification in place. Technically you're going to lose those contracts or there's going to be some difficult conversations.

00:12:25:05 - 00:13:14:00
Daniel Welling
And that's a that's a great example of where I would say infrastructure refresh, a known compliance issue such as Cyber essentials should all be well within the domain of the TAM TBR process an example, I would say is outside of the TAM, TBR process would be perhaps something at an application level. So going back to Simon's example, if a server needs refreshing, it probably isn't just doing file and print, it's probably hosting some application that's specific to the client's industry that they don't want to replace because it's going to cost them the vast amount of money and and a vast amount of disruption.

00:13:14:02 - 00:13:41:22
Daniel Welling
And then it's, well, what do we do about this this ancient piece of piece of software that we run our business on? That's where that's where I'd I'd say you probably need a higher level and certainly a paid for level of consulting that that reviews. You know, there's a technical element, there's a business element, there's review of the marketplace that I would all see as being the VCIO activities.

00:13:41:25 - 00:13:47:27
Daniel Welling
I don't know, is that perhaps a good example of where you might where you might take over Paul?

00:13:47:29 - 00:14:17:16
Paul Croker
One thing I want to point out is I don't I don't view things as taking over. It's for me, it's working in a collaboration. It's a collaborative Relationships with everybody, all parties, the MSP, the end client the board of directors, the finance people, whoever else is involved in the discussions and of course the suppliers, because you have to be on the same side if you're looking at as a them and us approach it’s going to be disjointed, there'll be gaps and people will assume you mean this or you mean that when actually that's not there's miscommunication there.

00:14:17:18 - 00:14:43:01
Paul Croker
So for me that needs to be taken away and it needs to be viewed from the outset that this is a collaborative piece and we're on the same side. Moving on from there with the with the TAM things and an understanding. If you're saying that the TAM needs to understand the cyber essentials frameworks and details around accreditations, how is the MSP training that when are they giving them time to arm that TAM with that information and that and that experience?

00:14:43:03 - 00:14:47:01
Paul Croker
How how would they do that?

00:14:47:04 - 00:15:12:20
Daniel Welling
How how could they how could they not do it without being able to communicate to the customer that they should should have achieve and maintain their cyber essential status? It's a it's a I would say it's a it's an inherent part of an MSP being responsible and delivering a best of best of class, best practice service to their customers.

00:15:12:23 - 00:15:53:09
Daniel Welling
If they don't understand cyber essentials, how how can they how can they talk it through with with the with their with their customers. Now that's the the technical element. And again, another good example perhaps where I would see VCIO, maybe not taking over, but the baton being passed or there being a demarcation line would be if we looked at something like ISO as opposed to cyber essentials, where it's probably more about processes and business operations than it is about technical controls.

00:15:53:12 - 00:16:04:22
Daniel Welling
So maybe that's again where I would see that yeah, that being a Yeah, way outside of the the TAM’s capabilities. What do you think Simon?

00:16:04:25 - 00:16:44:26
Simon Butler
Well, I was just thinking is some of the VCIO role or interpretation so it could be the VCIO can talk to the technical people in technical speak. and can then talk to the board. People in board speak. Um, many years ago I used to work for a management consultants. They literally had consultants who would sit between a government department and their outsourced contractor who could take what the outsourced contractor was saying and turn it into civil servant speak so that they could get the communication right there so that you as the person almost in the middle, can, you know, the techie saying, Oh, I need to replace X,

00:16:44:26 - 00:17:05:14
Simon Butler
Y and Z because this is happening and you know, blah, blah, blah. board if you went to the board member and said the same thing, the board members eyes would glaze over about 5 seconds into the conversation because they didn't understand a single word of it. You as the VCIO hopefully would understand what the techie is saying to you can then go to go, Look, if you don't do this, it's going to cost the company X.

00:17:05:16 - 00:17:23:19
Simon Butler
Techie doesn't know it's going to cost X, or it’s going to cost the company, you know, 5 million quid. If we don't replace this vital piece of kit, I could put it in the right language to get it, to get the board to understand the impact on the business that this technical bit is going to it's going to have.

00:17:23:22 - 00:17:48:16
Paul Croker
Absolutely. I think you've hit a core nail on the head there really Simon and it's that interpretation and it's that communication and it's the is the coordination between all the different facets, which is why it's a collaboration piece for me, because you've got to work in sync with all the different parties. So when you're presenting to a board or talking to, to Senior execs, you're going to have the owner of the business potentially there the CEO with one with one sort of mindset.

00:17:48:19 - 00:18:10:19
Paul Croker
The CFO will have a different mindset and the finance people will have a different one again altogether. And then the people that's impacting maybe like a project delivery team who are requesting that the new software or the hardware, whatever is are going to want that in because it's enabling them to deliver their project. The technical guys will need to know and girls we need to know what they need to do to take, to configure or make the changes and the business to go.

00:18:10:24 - 00:18:42:01
Paul Croker
We just need to know what is it which we're trying to do, what we're expected to do here. But they're not they're not technical. They don't understand that. But what they do understand is when you're explaining, when you've understood how the business shape to deliver their projects or what clients that are important to them or what work they're chasing, you can help with the VCIO piece in my mind to help them meet that need by just greasing the wheels in the right place is having the right conversations between the different parties and kind of being that that sort of that middle cog, as you said.

00:18:42:04 - 00:18:45:01
Simon Butler
Speaking the right words and the right language for the right people.

00:18:45:03 - 00:18:46:06
Paul Croker
100%.

00:18:46:09 - 00:18:48:08
Luke Betteridge
Technical TRANSLATOR There you go. Yeah.

00:18:48:11 - 00:19:09:16
Paul Croker
Well, it's like I say to people, if you receive an email that's quite short, do not send a three or four paragraph email back because that person is communicating you in fairly short sort terms. Either they that's how they talk or they haven't got time at the moment. So if you then send back a three or four paragraph email, you know, they're either not going to read it or it's going take time or delays or something else is going to go wrong.

00:19:09:22 - 00:19:33:23
Paul Croker
So it is it is it is about understanding the people that you're working with, building those relationships, building that credibility and say, look, I get it. You know what are your problems, what are you up against, Let's let's work with you client with you MSP, because they might be having challenges between each other, might go, well, you know, the technical team only talk technical to us and the MSP will go Well you know we can't pin down the people we need to for a meeting and that's never available.

00:19:34:00 - 00:19:46:05
Paul Croker
So there could be rebuffing going on there as well. So for me, it's just that understanding what needs to happen and when it needs to happen. And then kind of joining those those pieces of the puzzle up.

00:19:46:08 - 00:19:58:27
Luke Betteridge
And then adding the extra layer of understanding people, reading people and knowing who to communicate to at the right time around the right subject. So a lot a lot you're taking on with the role of many hats.

00:19:58:29 - 00:20:17:06
Paul Croker
it can It can be, but this is this is it. It's just there's no one size fits all. Each MSP, as we know, is going to be different. They've got different needs and requirements their client bases are going to be different with different needs and requirements. So for me, it's literally every, every, every day is like starting from zero.

00:20:17:06 - 00:20:35:22
Paul Croker
So. Right. What is it you’re trying to do here? Why are you trying to do it? What what are you trying to achieve? And I attribute that back to when I worked for the pan-European Space company. We had huge multinational projects being delivered, which I had to coordinate different different parts with different boards with different sign off. So it was quite it was quite challenging.

00:20:35:25 - 00:21:00:12
Paul Croker
And also you had different cultures, different people in different languages where English wasn't their first language, so you had to take abbreviations out. And all sorts so it was it would get challenging quite quickly. So this is this is what I'm looking to bring to the MSP space is this additional layer from the corporate world, but making it so it's easy for everyone to to keep on point, keep on focused for what they want to be doing.

00:21:00:15 - 00:21:17:29
Luke Betteridge
And I guess a key part of it as well is efficiency for the MSP. So that's ultimately what you're trying to achieve. You want to make sure everything that's happening is efficient and beneficial for the MSPs and for their end clients. Like you said, it's not just the tech team running it and just doing anything that has a technical requirement or the board just running it from a financial perspective.

00:21:17:29 - 00:21:26:00
Luke Betteridge
It's about bringing it all together so that everyone is running efficiently. everything is running smoothly and you're getting the best for your end clients at the end of the day.

00:21:26:03 - 00:21:46:28
Paul Croker
Absolutely, when things come up. So it's all very well getting signed off, maybe for year one on an I.T. project, but what about year two and year three? Those renewal prices, if the board haven't bought into it or the business hasn't brought into it fully, are they going to sign that off or they're going to question it? So, again, it's going to be a difficult conversation to have around what you're using them for how you're using it.

00:21:46:28 - 00:22:03:16
Paul Croker
who’s using it was if they have all the right training and those costs are all built into it, when you bring it in in year one, they're less likely going to question it or ask why, why, have we got this, do we really need it? Especially if people are looking at budgets, trying to trim access excess off if they can?

00:22:03:18 - 00:22:13:28
Luke Betteridge
Yeah, I don't know. Daniel, Simon if you've got any kind of kind of closing statements or remarks or anything you want to ask Paul.

00:22:14:00 - 00:22:23:16
Daniel Welling
I think from from my perspective, this is a huge, huge topic. 20 minutes half an hour doesn't really do it. Do it justice.

00:22:23:17 - 00:22:25:28
Luke Betteridge
Scratch the surface a little bit. Yeah.

00:22:26:01 - 00:23:24:02
Daniel Welling
Absolutely right. And and actually that there's there's such a diverse set of needs and circumstances and objectives and an approach is out there that I think the translation piece is a is a is a is a great a great analogy. Certainly reflecting back to my my early days in a managing customer relationships and actually, you know, before my my MSP business and you know, in my in my formative I.T career as a as a initially a new business sales person and then latterly as an account manager, effectively I was negotiating between between business and supplier and, and, and working to a standard that was was, was going to deliver a good outcome for the for

00:23:24:02 - 00:23:49:02
Daniel Welling
the customer but at a profit in a profitable and sustainable way for the supplier. And in fact you know all of those considerations need to be need to be balanced. And so yeah it's a it's a question of balance, a question sensitivity and and I think there's lots lots we can all always continue to learn from each other.

00:23:49:04 - 00:24:18:03
Simon Butler
I think I just added I think probably the biggest thing for MSPs though is going to be knowing when they need someone like Paul, you know, because of the perceptions. And I think that's going to that's the biggest hurdle they've probably got, is like knowing when it's gone past, you know, being able to do with whatever internal resources they've got and realizing that, you know, they need someone who particularly when they starting dealing with bigger businesses, who have got the board and they've got all of that additional layers in place.

00:24:18:03 - 00:24:35:18
Simon Butler
And it needs someone to be able to cut through the layers or know how to talk to all of the layers, which an MSP, by its very nature of being, you know, mainly, you know, a group of salespeople, a group of account managers and a group of techies may not have that skill set to be able to talk to all these multiple levels.

00:24:35:20 - 00:24:55:03
Simon Butler
That might be able to talk right at the top. They might be how talk right at the bottom, mainly because of how they've got the business in the first place. But there's an awful lot of middle ground and that's where you need you need someone to be able to cover that middle, that middle ground in and knowing how to adapt language and terminology and approach and everything to be able to to deal with some.

00:24:55:10 - 00:25:26:29
Simon Butler
I say the bigger projects and the bigger everything the bigger scope, the the bigger picture, you know, that's how many more cliches can I throw in? But you know, but that's what it is, you know, but it's knowing it's knowing how, you know, where someone like Paul can fit in and then knowing when they need it and how to find them, really, and knowing what it is, you know, the VCIO phrase is thrown around so much, I don't think it really has a proper definition, probably because there's so many different scopes for it.

00:25:26:29 - 00:25:35:04
Simon Butler
And it's sort of, you know, knowing what you know, if you need it, this is what you need.

00:25:35:07 - 00:25:41:14
Daniel Welling
Yeah, yeah. You know, if you need it

00:25:41:17 - 00:26:00:08
Paul Croker
I think for me it's just about having a place where, you know, MSPs, we talk about communities and there's lots of different communities around Dan and myself are obviously invest with Tech Tribe and some of the other ones as well. It's just not having a fear to reach out and just ask if you're not sure about something you know, you don't know what you don't know.

00:26:00:10 - 00:26:27:12
Paul Croker
Reach out, lean on communities and see what they say. There's all sorts of people with all sorts of really cool backgrounds in these communities, and you never know. You might surprise yourself. You might have a conversation with somebody which you weren't expecting, which might unlock that or something else that you've been struggling with. So for me it take home is just to sort of join communities, be be an active member in communities and use that as a as a sounding board.

00:26:27:15 - 00:26:31:14
Daniel Welling
Agree Yeah absolutely agree to

00:26:31:16 - 00:26:52:26
Luke Betteridge
Hundred percent. Well Paul, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate you coming in. And like we said scratching the surface. Should we say of VCIO role and everything that encompasses Simon and Daniel thank you again for joining us and thank you, everyone for listening. If you've got any questions around this or you want to discuss anything further, please feel free to reach out to any of us on this podcast and we look forward to chat with you in the next.

00:26:52:26 - 00:26:53:20
Luke Betteridge
one, thank you.