Mountain Cog
Hosted by an enthusiast and a mountain bike industry expert featuring laughter and passionate guests.
Mountain Cog
052 - Graham Cracker route, 6300 ft descent over 17 miles. Restoring trails on Mount Graham. (Nat Gordon, SDMB)
Ever wondered what it takes to reconstitute and epic big mountain trail system with sick vertical drop? Today, we're fortunate to have Nat Gordon, a board member of the volunteer-run Sonoran Desert Mountain Bikers (SDMB) organization on the show, to shed some light on their organization and their efforts to revive the trails on Mount Graham in South Eastern Arizona. Nat shares incredible insights into the hard work, engineering, and environmental considerations that go into trail restorations, and how the unique conditions of the Sonoran Desert add an extra layer of complexity.
The conversation doesn't stop at trail building. We also stir up discussions about the important initiatives at SDMB to foster diversity and inclusion within their ranks. Here’s a little teaser: They are on a mission to recruit more female board members! And yes, they speak about the irresistible lure of Mount Graham, the heart of their remarkable project. It's not just about mountain biking; we also hear about the exhilarating road riding opportunities that this mountain has to offer.
Towards the end, we steer the conversation to the responsible side of mountain biking. Nat enlightens us about SDMB's "be cool" trail safety initiatives, bike skills, and bike Academy program aimed at promoting inclusion and trail etiquette. We explore the vital role of volunteers in keeping the organization running smoothly, especially in the post-pandemic world. Lastly, we also touch upon the fascinating world of trail maintenance, the cowboy gate etiquette, and the somewhat cryptic art of securing funding for these activities. So, if you're a mountain biking enthusiast or simply love hearing about behind-the-scenes operations, you can't afford to miss this episode!
Sonoran Desert Mountain Bicyclists (SDMB) :
https://www.SDMB.org
Mount Graham Visitors Guide: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd1086012.pdf
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Did you know that you can't run through a campsite? I know I didn't know that you can only ran because it's past tense.
Mike:He who's laughs last didn't get the joke that was. That was a good one, josh, I like it. So you know my son likes ketchup, love's ketchup, eats it and everything. So today you'll. You know he opens sometimes a little like splatter a little bit. He got some in his eye. Now he is hindsight.
Josh:It was very good, thank you.
Mike:Speaking of dad jokes, I want to give a shout out to Kerry Demont. Sent me this beautiful shirt. I love it. Get a lot of compliments when I wear it in public dad jokes are how I roll spell yeah. Yeah, so thanks, kerry Demont.
Josh:I didn't even pick up on the eye roll until right now. That's awesome. Yeah, all right. So it is a what day? Today's Tuesday.
Mike:Still Tuesday yes, definitely.
Josh:Tuesday here on the MCP and we've got a special guest with us.
Mike:Now it's thinking yeah this is Tuesday, tuesday yeah.
Josh:So we've got a Nat Gordon with us from Sonoran Desert Mountain bikers.
Mike:Bicyclists.
Josh:Sonoran Desert Mountain bicyclists. So I'm going to read. I'm going to read from your website yeah, real quick here. So the Sonoran Desert Mountain bike list is a bicyclist, jesus man.
Mike:It's a volunteer, it's going to be a good one.
Josh:Non-profit organization that devoted to the promotion of the sport of mountain biking and views the sport as a vehicle to promote low impact outdoor recreation, conservation and might mountain bicycling opportunities that are environmentally and socially responsible. We were to build, maintain and protect multi use single track and mountain bike trail access to the greater Tucson Arizona region.
Nat:Yeah, right, right, and it's SDMB dot org. The only thing you might get mixed up with is San Diego mountain bike association, but that's SDMB.
Josh:So keep off the a, drop the a. Nobody wants to. And you may be asking yourself what is the Sonoran Desert? So, from Wikipedia, the Sonoran Desert is a desert in North America and echo region that covers the Northwest Mexican states of Sonora, baja California, baja California, sir, as well as as well as part of the Southwest United States. It's the hottest desert in both Mexico and the United States. It has an area of 260,000 square kilometers. The Sonoran Desert is within the Sonoran floristic province. The desert contains a variety of unique endemic plants and animals, notably the saguaro and organ pipe cactus. You like organ pipes? The Sonoran Desert is completely distinct from nearby deserts because it provides subtropical warmth in winter and two seasons of rainfall. This creates an extreme contrast between aridity Did I say that word right? And moisture.
Nat:Yeah, I'm going to give it to you, yeah yeah, that's right, it's pretty good.
Mike:It was excellent reading. I don't read very much, yeah.
Josh:All right, so go ahead and introduce yourself, nat.
Nat:Yeah, I mean, we're literally feeling that amazing contrast right now. It's like 109 today and kind of humid.
Josh:Yeah, that's special Kind of humans. Like 30% humidity for us, yeah.
Nat:Yeah, yeah. So hey, thanks for having me guys. Yeah, so I'm with SDMB, I'm a board member there and my title is the development and fundraising chair, but really we just call it development now, because we I do help with the fundraising or I apply for the grants and so on, but I'm also in the development role, forward looking. So what does SDMB want to be Right? What does our board want to look like? That's one of the missions we've been on lately. Sdmb has kind of been tagged with being a bunch of old white guys and we need some diversity.
Nat:We need some diversity and we've been working on that and I've been helping to recruit so and we've been successful in that and that's made our group more interesting, so I'm happy to report that.
Josh:Outstanding. We have a pretty big listenership from females, so I hear that women, yeah, sdmb is looking for some diversity.
Nat:Yes, yes, we're. We continue to seek female board members and we now have four.
Josh:So that's good.
Nat:Yeah, right on, yeah yeah. That's awesome, yeah, so that's. That's one thing I've been up to. Another thing is looking at how we do business, how we even things like membership software, like the tool that we have that we're using, that you read the website about. I might get in trouble if the company hears me say this, but we can cut this out.
Nat:It's bad, we're looking for a better solution. And this is kind of the thing with being an all we're all volunteers. Nobody's getting paid. I'm kind of paid executive director for a little bit a few years ago and then that person decided it wasn't a good use of the company, of the organization's money, so you stopped drawing a salary, right, but anyways. So I said, hey, let's get a better membership software. And if you say something then it's like well, you got to go do it.
Josh:Like is a volunteer, is a volunteer.
Mike:It's like, yeah, you gotta think about every idea.
Josh:Hey, you know what we should do? Oh wait, nevermind, nevermind. No, I was, I was.
Nat:So so I'm out procuring a nonprofit centric.
Nat:You know CRM, you know like Salesforce for a nonprofit so we can better members, better manage our partnerships, our sponsors, our donors and do more with less. So that's one of the things I'm up to. I think the reason I'm invited here is because I am leading a project with an SDMB out on Mount Graham and the Penelonios Mountains which is in Graham County. About, depending where you are on the mountain is between an hour and 45 and four hours, I would say, to get to deeper parts of the mountain. But most of it's most of where we would go to ride I would say is about hour and 45.
Josh:You're talking about from Tucson from Tucson.
Nat:Sorry, yeah, yeah, good clarification. Yeah, assuming we're leaving from Tucson, central Tucson. Yeah, yeah, hour and 45 to like three hours yeah.
Josh:And if you're not familiar with my Graham, I've spent a lot of time. Lacey's family has a cabin up there and they see my wife grew up up there. I spent a lot of time at Mount Graham, actually named my son Matthew Graham. His middle name is after Mount Graham.
Mike:Yeah.
Josh:After we backed away from naming him Hazard, matthew, we were going to call him Hazmat.
Mike:Uh-huh, that was the last minute Decisions to go with.
Josh:Matthew Graham. But in addition to the great potential for trail mountain biking on Mount Graham, it has some really unique road riding. Sure, we were talking before the podcast started. It's like Tour de France riding. It's the kind of riding that you see on television. It's the crazy, you know 180 degree switchbacks, super steep, paved good and very, very little traffic compared to like what you'll see in Mount Lemmon.
Josh:So if you're a road rider and you haven't been to Mount Graham I know they do the Mount Graham hill climb every year. There's a lot of awesome road riding, so bring your road bike and your mountain bike, go visit.
Nat:Mount Graham? Yeah, absolutely. It's a 200 foot sustained climb from down at the general store up to Shannon, I think it might be Just to Shannon, it might be. Yeah, and then if you it's and you can go up to Heliograph, if you're willing to do the gravel grind up to Heliograph, that's another two miles and 900 feet. So yeah, you're over. You're over seven grand sustained yeah.
Josh:It puts you in the hurt locker for sure.
Mike:So on the website it mentions reopening the Mount Graham trails. What does that mean, reopening?
Nat:Does that say that on our website?
Josh:I don't know what website.
Mike:you're referring to the SDMB as far as Bill, the main train. So this is one of the committees called trails love. Oh, yeah, and it talks about Bill, the maintained mountain bike trails, the enchanted hills, explorer portal trails at Kennedy park. Reopening trails at Mount Graham.
Nat:Yeah, yeah. So that is true. I just didn't know that. That said that I should know that.
Josh:So you're a volunteer man, it's all good, yeah, right.
Nat:Let's just back up on Mount Graham though. So it is 10,700 feet. It's high Salisvete elevation, and the Saford Hila Valley is about 3,000. It's 7,700 vertical feet. It's the most prominent mountain in the state, even though what is it?
Josh:Humphries Peak up in Flag is higher, starting at a higher elevation.
Nat:And it's the largest of the Madrean Sky Islands, or tallest, tallest, sorry, yeah, which is this?
Josh:You probably need to explain what a Sky Island is for our listeners.
Nat:Yeah, so am I going to see this right? It's an archipelago, right? So there are these scattered mountains kind of in between the Rockies. Man, I'm going to get roasted if I get this wrong.
Mike:Between the Rockies and the Sierra Madre of Mexico.
Nat:And it's these, and they have such elevation that they act as islands, because the story with Mount Lemon or Mount Graham is you can go from this Mexico type climate all the way up to Canadian type climate in the 6,000 feet of elevation change.
Josh:Yeah, I mean, we actually have a ski resort here in Tucson the southern most ski resort in the United States, which is crazy. People think about Tucson Arizona. You guys have a ski resort there, yeah, and it's not the best, but when you get two feet of powder, it's two feet of powder. That's what I say Absolutely.
Nat:And like I did this winter in January, I rode prison camp mountain bike loop in the morning and I went up and skied in the afternoon.
Mike:Perfect, no way.
Nat:On the same mountain. That's pretty cool.
Mike:It's like a snow hike in your bike. Oh yeah, on bugs. Yeah, that's what it was. That's pretty impressive.
Nat:Yeah, so that's really cool. So yeah, Graham is unique and if you it's a lot of it's burned but there's a lot more intact, kind of big spruce forest up there.
Josh:Yeah, when was the fire? They had a fire. What was it?
Nat:17. Fried fire 17, 17. And then I think it's 04, not all fire. Those are the ones that really kind of put this mountain in a situation to go back to you, Mike, where trails needed to be reopened.
Mike:That's the most thing I've referenced to the fire probably.
Nat:Yeah. So two big fires came through and you need time to heal from the burn scars, and then I would say there were also challenges in Plus. It was hard to heal completely when it started fire. Honestly, it looked quite like it was going to begin trail maintenance initiatives, right, whether it was volunteers coming in or just the Forest Service having the funds to do it, right.
Josh:So and it's a small community there. It's not like Tucson, I think like the whole Hilo Valley is like 30,000 people or something right, yeah, yeah, tucson's over a million and I would say the amount of damage that was done.
Nat:this is important. The fire burns so hot in places like Grant Hill, which is up at about 9,000 feet, which used to be a mountain bike.
Josh:Yup, yeah, like Grant Loop. Yeah, we used to ride that all the time.
Nat:And Web Peak they had to bring in. I was just told they had to bring in a special like severe burn unit to evaluate with Web Peak to like both study and try to assess what happened to the earth and the vegetation there and the wildlife because it burns so bad.
Nat:Oh wow, I hadn't heard that, yeah, and then with that you've just had horrific years of blowdowns and deadfall. Just keep coming and coming and coming and they're honestly finally just in some places like Arcadia Trail, just stabilizing, starting to stabilize, so yeah. And then to go back, like Web Peak and some of Grant Hill were cleared out two years ago and because they've got so much deadfall, it's like rows of dead logs again that need 10 chainsaw, that's fun.
Mike:Yeah, I would imagine some erosion happens as well because of that.
Nat:Oh yeah, there's blown out trails all over the mountain, all kinds of stuff, yeah. So an example. We don't want to get too into the weeds of this, but Arcadia Trail, which is a national recreation trail which we're working to restore. The corridor is open, but it does need improvement to get it like more all abilities riding.
Nat:There you go, but at the bottom of that trail there used to be kind of a gentle creek crossing and due to the burn and the monsoon floods coming through, it's now a 60 foot chasm. Wow, they had that.
Josh:Oh, I didn't even realize. I know exactly where you're talking about. Yeah, a wet canyon, a wet canyon, okay, yeah no, it's like a chasm. And then my predecessor, Evan Pilling, whom you may know, we know Evan, or we know of Evan.
Nat:Yeah, so Evan went through and led a state fire crew through there and built a reroute. It's very. I mean, he did the absolute best with what's left of the sides of that canyon because it's so steep. But yeah, a reroute had to be built in there when we first started going in and working on Arcadia Trail and I'll get into the history here in a minute. This will be a good segue. Segways are great on the radio, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike:We prefer awkward silences but, Segways will work today.
Nat:Okay, well, I'm in development and this is some process improvement.
Josh:Yeah, right on, there you go.
Nat:So yeah, when we first started going in there, it was a straight up scramble into like a boulder field. And then we had one of our volunteers from like Davis Monthan, that knew how to run some lines and ran a hand line. So then we were like almost kind of repelling in a wet canyon to get over and do trail work and stuff.
Josh:Wow, crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, dude, I gotta get up there and check it out. Man, I haven't been out that far in a while, interesting.
Mike:So, like you mentioned, kind of get into maybe some of what like an average day up there looks like when you're trying to build these trails and rework them.
Nat:Okay, so it depends. Right, it depends on the time of year, what part of the mountain we're working on and what the soil is like, and there's a lot of variation. Back to the sky island thing, right, and the lower reaches it's about 5,000 feet, so it's kind of like High desert. Yeah, Oracle, Reddington Molino, right, but it's rocky. I'd say it's quite rocky. There's a lot of decomposed granite.
Josh:So now we have to be careful. We have an international listener base so they're not gonna know like the local Tucson landmarks. Yeah, to kind of try to explain them a little bit.
Nat:Okay, yeah, so it is a high desert, decomposed granite, so a lot of rock. So you're going out and trying to fix braided, eroded trails that have a lot of water come down them and you've got to go do a lot of rock work. You've got or we've got.
Josh:And it's interesting, you know, in the desert this is like not loam, right, it's loose over hard and there's nowhere for the water to go. And a lot of times when it rains we get monsoon rains, we get heavy rains that come really really fast. We get a ton of volume of water that comes down on the trail really really quickly and that water is not able to like, the ground, is not able to absorb it. And if you have, specifically if you have, a trail that wasn't designed to deal with, like watershed right, you get the trails that make an excellent place for the water to follow and so, typical, they'll follow that line and then they can just wash out In one monsoon rain you can like wash out an entire trail.
Nat:Sure, thank you, josh, for giving that context. Yeah, so they can become creeks right or water flows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it is all about erosion control or coming back, fixing that and try to continue to mitigate it. So in the lower elevations which we try to work in the cooler months, obviously it's anything from like. One example would be two February's ago we just moved a section we have about 60 feet to kind of move within a corridor. That's without an environmental review, and we moved a trail over about 15 feet to an area because we're like the trails, literally the drain.
Josh:Now so let's let the drain be the drain. Let's go build a new drain.
Nat:We're gonna go uphill a little bit. We're gonna build a new smoother curve here and then but we still had to, leading into it, build these things called check dams, which are basically these embedded rock water bars, you know.
Mike:So some engineering.
Nat:At intervals. Yeah, and that was a weekend of working on maybe 60 feet of trail like eight people the whole weekend. So okay, so yeah slow work.
Josh:Can you, if you're okay, can you dive a little bit into check dam? I've seen these. I called them water bars, but I've seen these on the trails and I don't fully understand, like why they were set up or what they're used for.
Nat:Can you help me understand that? Yeah, so I'm not the super expert on check dams, but as I see them, it's in areas, and there's actually a great video series I can share with you that the Arizona Trail Association put out, and it's called Trail Skills Essentials.
Josh:Yeah, I think we talked about we had Matt Elsinan from ATA, so I think Matt talked about that as well. So we'll put that in the show notes guys.
Nat:And I think that was that's under their topic of, like more advanced erosion control, and that's essentially when you're in a situation where you, as Josh you pointed out you can't avoid the water flowing down it, so you've gotta build. They're more or less like steps that try to slow it down. Yeah, yeah, check dams, check dams, yeah.
Josh:And they're probably a foot and a half tall maybe so it's almost like you're riding down. When you're riding down, it's like you're riding down stairs.
Nat:Let me get a jump down. We try to roll them as make them as round as we can.
Josh:That kind of defeats the purpose a little bit, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Nat:Well, you've got hopefully some off camber water flow going off when it gets up to it. So then, yeah, not have it too abrupt. So yeah, those are check dams.
Mike:So how did you learn about all the details, from check dams to the 60 foot area that you mentioned, or? Thank you, corridor, all these details? That must go into it that when I'm writing I don't really notice sure.
Nat:So to go back, I was kind of an assistant trail coordinator, crew leader for the Mount Graham thing that SDMB was doing. Evan Pilling was the lead and Evans a professional trail builder and also has had years of in years of experience engaging the land managers.
Josh:So so you're a apprentice under a master right, right, right.
Nat:I was very fortunate to imprentice under him and he was very clear at letting everybody know when we're out on trail like it's right or wrong. We can move it. We've got this much room. You know, and in this area, that that whole scenario we're talking about the check dams, the realignment, knowing we could move it that far. Learn that all from Evan him cascading down his both his knowledge of construction and the rules of engagement with the plan manager.
Mike:Very cool. Yeah, so you spend a lot of time working engineering building trails. Do you spend more time building trails or writing? Writing a bike nowadays?
Nat:In general, or when I'm at my grand.
Josh:No, it was interesting. So I think part of why Mike's asked this question is when we had Tucker and Patrick on from.
Mike:Angel fire.
Josh:Tucker said I just fell in love with building trail, sure, and and I'm almost more in love with the trail building that I am with the riding he's like I'll ride my bike to like test out the jump that I just built, sure, and he asked him like what kind of bike he has, and he was he didn't really even know.
Mike:He was like I don't know it's still works.
Josh:So he doesn't even like most mountain bikers. You know like right you can tell you every single ounce of water and whatever on their bike. But he was like just a lover of the building process and frankly he was the first person I've ever met that said that most trail builders have met. Are you know, bad ass? Cyclists love cycling and they're doing that passion, kind of feed each other. Where do you fall in that spectrum?
Nat:Great question. So I don't consider myself a trail builder, totally like like somebody at the gentleman you're talking about Angel fire cuz like he's probably designing something and they're getting the axe out there and doing it right. I'm doing more restoration, right, but, but I do, there are improvements. I'm starting to dabble into maybe what the what would be considered construction like when I'm shaping some of these corners. But anyways, to answer your question, I still very much love riding. I do ride less, but there's a reason. There's a benefit though, and it's not so like. I love doing trail work, but I find that if I ride less, I and like I found before I was doing trail work, I was over riding and it was becoming like kind of a hamster wheel.
Josh:I wasn't enjoying as much as riding, too much, you know it was getting border trails sometimes you gotta take a break, right, right, I know, right, when I leave my wife for a week and I come back and like I really love you, yeah, yeah, just just, just just kidding lacy yeah, and and and part of that was is like it was with.
Nat:You know, we're all getting older here, right?
Mike:and yeah, and we're not getting younger body break right and in Duro.
Nat:I'm kind of in in Duros, kind of my preference right, and that does a number on your joints right.
Nat:Yeah, for sure, and so I was like I gotta rest, I gotta stretch, I gotta strength train more, but what I'm getting at the trail, the trail work which I didn't think because some of it's been shoulder related and stuff it's actually been really beneficial Just helping build your body. For that, yeah, yeah and and and then yeah, it does kind of give me this balance between, you know, working on trails and then writing and reaping the rewards. Or also the thing I like the most like in our most recent volunteer weekend was just this past weekend is taking people down the goods, you know yeah, and look what we did yeah, sharing the stuff, like even hiking out on the trail we just work, is like shake trail we worked on this weekend.
Nat:We didn't. We didn't ride that when we wrote a different trail.
Josh:But people are just like so, like please with themselves and Like seeing the finish product that's that if you guys actually do that all the way down out, that would be pretty nuts alright. So so we go all over on this podcast. Tons of rabbit holes. Yeah, I think you were kind of on a roll to kind of talk us through your game plan and what was going on Mount Graham, and I think we took you down some rabbit holes. So maybe we could take you back to Mount Graham and like what's your grand vision? How's it going? Sure, and then I think one thing we want to highlight a couple times in this podcast is like how can people volunteer?
Nat:sure. I appreciate that yeah yeah, so do we want to do like my, like origin story with Mount Graham to kind of get?
Josh:yeah, let's start with that man.
Nat:That sounds good okay because it's kind of it's kind of interesting and it's like it's digitally documented, which is kind of neat right in the Okay, right, so I don't know what that means.
Josh:But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll explain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's out, it's out, okay, cool there's.
Nat:There's a digital. Yeah, there's a digital trail. I don't know if it's blockchain or not, but there's a digital. Yeah, you know, because blockchain you can't take back right once it's out there yeah, yeah. So, as I mentioned earlier, I'm newer to Tucson. I've lived here for about three years and you grew up where Portland main.
Josh:Portland. Okay, right now, yeah, main, main, yeah different for the original Portland. I even know there was a Portland in Maine yeah, no, no worries, it's the big city, yeah.
Mike:Yeah, no, I just heard something about the real estate in Portland main.
Nat:I didn't realize it's kind of a hotspot it's a major hotspot yeah, I know that yeah yeah, it's a very cool small city in New England, super cool right on yeah, yeah, it's on the ocean. You're not far from hills and mountains.
Josh:I mean, killing 10 is not that far from there.
Nat:Right and get up yeah, killing 10 is like probably three and a half hours, but we've got our own mountain sugar loaf. Sunday river. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know those ones yeah, so yeah, it's an old, you know New England city, so there's not a lot of room for housing. It's pretty dense, right. That's why, and and it's gotten hip. You know, people moving from Boston, new York, wherever want to go, live the good life, main, the way life should be. That's their motto.
Mike:So People are tapping that right right on yeah anyway.
Nat:so yeah for Portland main originally. But prior to living in southern Arizona I was living, I lived in the Bay Area, mostly in Oakland, for about 15 years and got into Trail kind of advocacy and volunteering with trail work, with the Syrab you trail stewards and they're, they're the, they're the guys that bring you downyville and all that kind of stuff, right?
Josh:familiar with that. Yeah, it's like the birthplace, but don't tell the Colorado guys. But yeah the birthplace of mountain yeah.
Nat:So downyville, there's a whole story there and this is where I get inspired about it. But there's a whole story with you know, downyville, and that's the Tahoe national force there that sometime, and I believe was maybe the 90s, they cut trail maintenance funding or maybe the early 2000s, and there were businesses shuttle businesses, bike shops that relied on this yep and the owners of those businesses and the community members got together and created a stewardship and volunteer trails organization. To pick up that man. It's because it both created jobs yeah, record, or created jobs recreation and and it was just the right thing to do. Why would you want to let those trails just disappear?
Nat:yeah yeah, so worked with them a few times a year and just love their model and also love that kind of big mountain Sierra riding. We get up there and do that a bunch and, as I was, it was kind of a deliberate move down. To some we were wanting to get out of the bay and to some was on our short list. Loved Mount lemon had written here a bunch, you know loved all the trails in Tucson, love TMP. But also was like poking around on the map Like what else is out of there, what? What's going to be my weekend trips, right?
Nat:yeah and what's going to be my weekend trips, but also not flag staff, because I know I'm going to be competing with A thousand other right, right, right so two places came up the panels outside of globe.
Josh:Yeah, trail forks, great I mean. And actually, yeah, we had Matt on, he was talking about some of the like there is on a trail and like, yeah, some of the like, the hidden gems on that trail yeah, you know in that direction.
Mike:so Just to back up, so you guys pick where you're going to reside, live based on the mountain biking.
Josh:Well, how else would you find a house to live in?
Mike:I don't know. That's where you pick your house location.
Josh:My house has to be within the right distance of the traditional that's what I'm hearing.
Nat:Yeah, so there's a heavy weight bias on cycling.
Josh:Yes, Very cool, yeah, yeah, is your partner right as well?
Nat:She does More like like Hardtail Cross Country MTV and.
Josh:Gravel and Road.
Nat:Cool.
Mike:Yeah.
Nat:Yeah, yeah, but it's good. Yeah, yeah, so, and she comes up in this trail work at Mount Crown which is really cool.
Mike:Yeah, that's awesome.
Nat:Yeah, so, but I've been visiting Arizona and Tucson for years and I just love the vibe here, you know, and there was obviously, like you know, it's a mountain city, it's got most of the services, it's affordable and it's got, you know. I mean to me like, if you're talking about technical big mountain riding, like Mount Lemmon is, it's it yeah.
Mike:It's the corner of the breast.
Nat:Yeah, it ranks with anywhere in the world, right.
Mike:Yeah.
Nat:And I was like I want to live near that, you know. But I knew I kind of had ridden here enough. I'd been here three or four times and I wanted to know what other you know, rounding out my experience, what would that be? And then I said, like I said it was like in the penals, saw those on Trail Forks and I saw Mount Graham and that those were all marked on Trail Forks but there was nothing behind, no Strava, right, they were on the Trail Forks, you could click on them. There may be. One guy was like yeah, this thing burn. I know what that was going on here, but there was hardly anything. So it just curiosity got the best me. So I put something out on MTBR, which people used to use more right the mountain bike forum there, and just said, hey, what's going on? Mount Graham? Anybody in the Arizona forum, anybody know? Is there a trail advocacy group out there? Like there's, there's five mile trails with like 4,000 feet of ascending. That place has got to be awesome. What's going on?
Josh:Right.
Nat:And nobody came back at first. And then I went back again and some guy from Phoenix came back and was like yeah, burn man, Like there's no organization out there and it burned really bad, so we don't know what's going on, right. And it's going to need time to heal. So we move here in September of 2020, during the kind of high to the pandemic.
Mike:Right.
Nat:And I'm like, hey, let's head out to Mount Graham in October, go see the fall colors and see what's going on with these trails. Yeah, so we roll out there and orchard. Yeah, yeah, we. I don't think they were open. I think we went on a Sunday. I don't think they were.
Josh:Yeah, yeah.
Nat:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, but yeah. So we rolled up and I tried to ride Arcadia and I got like a mile into it and it had a number of like 24 inch down trees diameter and literally sapling, aspen saplings like growing in the middle, in the middle of the trail.
Josh:Yeah.
Nat:Yeah.
Josh:Oh, where it's beer time, he wants an IPA. Yeah, yeah, thank you Sorry, you want me to go get you on while we're no, no, no, no, we're good, we're good.
Nat:I am not looking a gift horse in a gift horse in the mouth.
Mike:I don't want to be associated with that.
Nat:Thank you, mike. Yes, so try to do that. And what was funny, like this is so futile. I had like my little hands on with me. I cut it on a couple of saplings.
Josh:Did something.
Nat:Chuck them out of the way.
Josh:Cool.
Nat:I'm going to come back, man, yeah, so rolled out of there and then went down and tried to ride up or ladybug, I know you're. So another trail on the mountain that looked like it might be a good mountain bike trail, yep, and people had ridden these. There was a little bit of beta that people had ridden Yep Out there on the interwebs got down that one ridiculously short switchbacks, ones that you would just want to ride down the middle. And then, yeah, that situation was scrub oak growing right into the middle of the tread. So I hiked back up it both, both situations. I hiked back up the trail.
Josh:Never made it down to the bottom.
Nat:Never made it down to the bottom, so get back to home base and go on a local Facebook group here to some mountain bike conditions. Yep, Put out a post. Hey went out to Mount Graham. Here's what I saw. What's up. And then that led me to SDMB and Evan. And Evan was like hey, I've actually been thinking and talking to the Coronado Safra district about getting a volunteer agreement. But my thing is, his thing was I need people to actually be interested to support it. And what happened from there is I was like I'm all in and other people said they were interested, had ridden there 20 years ago, and Evan went and got a volunteer agreement of the forest and like two weeks they turned it around. So we.
Mike:This is how they were hungry for help.
Josh:Yeah, yeah, yes, and that was laid off.
Nat:I don't know third week of October 2020, and we were out there working second week in December.
Mike:Nice.
Nat:Super drought year so we were able to actually work lower Arcadia in.
Josh:Yeah, it's typically the mountain.
Nat:Yeah.
Josh:So you know, in Southern Arizona we have eight months of awesome weather, we have four months of awful weather. That awful weather is here in the summer and really we just go ride at five in the morning or a good do a night ride and it's okay. Just in the day you don't ride. You're going to be going to scorch yourself. But it's unusual to be able to go up that high on Moncram in December because there's snowpack basically.
Nat:Yeah, exactly right. So it was a dry year. It was still cold, but during the day, because of the Arizona sun at elevation, even in the winter is still pretty warm, even though it's 45 or 50 feels warmer than that. And that trail is mostly East facing so you're right, in that morning afternoon sun. So we worked out there all winter and I can show you guys pictures. But the trail was completely grown in, like you know, manzanita oak.
Josh:What was this trail? You said this, but I forgot.
Nat:Sorry, this is Arcadia.
Josh:Arcadia.
Nat:Okay and fully, you know fully grown in. So we went in and brushed it out over a few months and then and you're starting at Arcadia working up to Shannon, or what were you doing? Exactly Starting at Arcadia, working up to Shannon with the goal of clear, brushing out the whole corridor and then getting into tread work, and we're doing some of that too, so okay, so can you explain the difference between brushing and tread work?
Nat:Yeah, that's a great question. So brushing is the removal of vegetation from the trail and the standard is a six foot corridor which we usually measure by just putting your arms length out as far as you can. So you want to get the brush back to there. I guess there's. There's also a horse standard, 10 feet high, If there's horse traffic or use on the trail too.
Mike:Right, Because you want them to be able to clear it.
Nat:So how does brushing work? You could be taking pruners, hand saws, chainsaws, getting all that stuff out and then tread. Work is tread is the trail that you're actually working on. I think most people are used to working, walking on trails that have a pretty good bench to them, pretty good grade, pretty level, not too lumpy, beaten in pretty well, so they don't think about it. But when trails have not been used for a long time or have suffered a burn or a lot of erosion, they become lumpy. They can even be gone. They could just slide off the hill and you got to dig back into the slope and reestablish it.
Mike:Yep.
Nat:So that tread work would be taking tools to dig back to the proper standards of tread. Yeah, we're back on tread work. So that was tread work and brushing. So I guess we need to continue on with what's been going on with Mount Cram. So yeah, we've had volunteer weekends and events since December of 2020. And it's now what? July of 2023.
Mike:It's a lot of volunteer hours.
Josh:So let me ask you this Are all your volunteers coming out from Tucson and Phoenix, or do you have volunteers that are coming from the Gila Valley there?
Nat:The majority are from Tucson. We have a couple guys or a few people from Phoenix, the Valley right Yep.
Josh:The Phoenix Valley.
Nat:Yep, we have a. We do have a few from Safford, heela Valley too.
Josh:Okay, cool.
Nat:But it all depends. Not everyone's there every weekend, right, yeah, yeah, but I would say probably 80% Tucson, 10% Phoenix 10%.
Josh:Safford 10%.
Nat:Heela Safford.
Josh:And do you have a relationship Like the end of the day of a bike shop down there next to the ACE hardware in Safford?
Nat:I've talked to that guy. I can't remember his name. It's called Hot Wheels, isn't it? I think?
Josh:It might be, I don't know.
Nat:I talked to that guy. I randomly called him and he got me in touch with a guy that now does trail work with us. So that was cool.
Josh:Yeah right on.
Nat:Yeah, and I'm also in touch with the Heela Valley Chamber of Commerce cause they're interested in promoting the mountain and the recreation there.
Josh:So we have a lot of like connections into the community there. So maybe we can leverage those connections, see if we can like dig up some more mountain bikers, cause I can tell you that like a lot of the folks that we talked to. I don't think they know what's going on.
Nat:Yeah, I sense that too. There's a little bit of it. But yeah, anything you could do to connect us with more peeps, we'd love that.
Josh:Yeah, for sure.
Nat:And ultimately our goal is to establish and it doesn't have to be mountain biker centric- it's better.
Josh:If it's not actually right, Much better. Yeah, More users.
Nat:Because, in reality, mountain bikers are not the majority users.
Josh:Not a mountain.
Nat:For sure. Yeah, by a long shot. We would like to help incubate and develop and even equip and whether that's a tool cache that the Forest Service provides or whatever, get a local crew and staff are going, because they would just have more flexibility, because there's 30 minutes from the mountain instead.
Mike:And turn it over to them for some maintenance.
Nat:Yeah, yeah, plugment Ideally, yeah, yeah, and you know we still want to be a part of it, but ideally it should be owned there and run there, yeah.
Mike:So you're going on three years now on this project. That sounds like, if I did the math right, you're correct. Yeah, so what kind of progress have you made? How many miles, I guess Sure and trails. And then where are you going in the next near term?
Nat:Sure, good question. So we're three years into it. But what's interesting about trails, right is that. And it's been interesting weather since this project has started. So we went from the worst drought in the history of Arizona, the driest year, to the wettest.
Josh:We had a 50 year monsoon.
Nat:And then another really good one, and then an epic winter right.
Josh:So you're redoing.
Nat:So that's if you want to talk about one of that, my real issue, the biggest pains of being a trail person is watching it grow back in or blow out and you're like I do oh, we just did that. And you're out there with someone like you put we did it, we did it.
Josh:I swear we worked on it so.
Nat:So two things right. Use is work is what I'm going to say in response to that. So Mount Graham doesn't get a ton of use.
Josh:And use actually helps bed the trail in and establish the trail and stop the vegetation, exactly Feet beating the trail right.
Nat:So I got kind of asymmetric in my approach. I was more like mountain bike centric, just updating trail forks. But now I'm out there going to high KZ, all trails Like I'm all in all fours.
Josh:We're trying to get the word out so people use the trails that should we all bring fat bikes out there or something to kind of like yeah.
Nat:Yeah, bring a 250.
Josh:Wrap it out.
Nat:Yeah, I'm going to jail.
Josh:Do not do that. Those are not allowed. Yeah, yeah, this is a safford. Do not bring your motorcycle right onto the trails.
Nat:I'm being encourageable.
Josh:But you can have a fat bike with a mechanical no engine.
Nat:So we've made great progress, but because of our ability to keep up with the scale of the project, there's been setbacks right. So to give you an idea, though, what we're focused on is a flagship route called the graham cracker.
Mike:Yeah.
Josh:So both the stars, it's like the lemon drop, same concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven't heard that term, but it makes it all in a sense.
Nat:To me that's a great name, so it's on brand with Mount Lemmon in the Southern Arizona tradition of, and we're even going to try to tie in with like lemma, like merengue, right, because there's that right on top of lemon right.
Nat:So we've also kind of developed something in the spirit of that. But so the graham cracker is the flagship route and what that is is that is a shuttle run from. You'll get dropped off at Shannon Campground and you will ride Arcadia Trail down to Arcadia Campground. You will climb up to Turkey Flat, you will take Turkey Flat connector.
Josh:How the hell you climbing to Turkey Flat from oh shit on the road From.
Nat:Arcadia on the road.
Josh:On the road. I got it, I got it, I got it.
Nat:Yep, so you climb on the road to Turkey Flat.
Josh:Which is not that far. It's like a couple miles, couple miles, a couple, two, three miles.
Nat:No, there's not much. That's probably the. There's a, yeah, there's maybe. Out of this 70 mile route I'm about to lay out, there's maybe three miles of road connection. There you go. So get up to Turkey Flat. That's a little steep, it's a bit of hike a bike it's, but pedal to it's not as hard as most of the hike a bikes that most people in Tucson know. So that's good. And then you get up on Ladybug.
Josh:So you're riding from Turkey Flat up the road, up the trail, to Ladybug.
Nat:Yep, and then you go downhill Because we don't upper. Ladybug is has a lot of sections that just aren't favorable to mountain biking and would need some.
Josh:I have tried to ride those. Those switchbacks are like, yeah, they're beyond my skill level.
Nat:And I've had some people call me out and be like no dude, it's rideable and I'm like yeah, yeah, yeah, For a select few humans.
Josh:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nat:Yeah, but. But you know the right bang for the buck.
Josh:And the price of failure is pretty rough up there too.
Nat:If you, if you go off, so you head down toward what is called angle orchard, which is the orchard you spoke of earlier.
Mike:Yep.
Nat:So so let's just back up. So you've gone from Shannon to Arcadia, so you've dropped five miles and 2700 vertical feet, and then you get up to Ladybug and you're going to drop another four and a half miles and 2800 feet Down to Engels, down to Engel, orchard, and then I've got a little kind of reverse lollipop thing in the round the mountain and creek complex there, and that adds another 1200 foot of drop. So the route is 17 miles with 2600 feet of climbing and 6300 feet of descending.
Mike:It sounds like an awesome trail.
Nat:Yeah, yeah, it's like it's a thing, yeah it's a thing.
Mike:Yeah, yeah, it's a thing. So what kind of ETA do you have on this?
Nat:I mean. So here's what's amazing. Back to the. I think we talked earlier.
Josh:You could do it now, right? It's, I mean it's rideable, now it's rideable.
Nat:now it's rideable but it's rough, it's advanced, it's back country, it's rustic, right yeah, and there's variations Like Arcadia is an easier trail than Ladybug but it's got more overgrowth and kind of hidden stuff under the overgrowth. Ladybug is outright more technical, but it's more clear, it's more open, you've got better visibility, and then the lower around the mountain stuff is actually in really good shape. Well, I've got crews going through there right now. We'll get to that, but that's just got great kind of classic upper intermediate flow in my opinion. Yeah so, and then there's one other version which adds another trail off of Heliograph Peak called Heliograph Trail, which is above Shannon Campground, and that adds another 400 feet of no, no, no, that's another 900 feet of climbing.
Josh:So you'd climb up the service road, basically, or you can't drive up there.
Nat:Right, exactly. So you get dropped off near Shannon Campground at the Heliograph Road. You'd climb up there. You top out at 10,080 feet.
Josh:Yeah, it's super cool views up there too. Yeah, so high 10,080 feet.
Nat:There's a fire tower up there, some old Forest Service cabins, unbelievable views. So with that route which is called S'mores, and that's because it's a pun on Graham Cracker, but also because it's some more climbing and descending.
Mike:Some more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nat:So S'mores is that route is 19 miles or 19 and 1 half, and I think it's 30, 3,500 feet of climbing and 7,000 feet of descending. Damn.
Mike:Wow.
Nat:Yeah, with a shuttle, yeah.
Josh:With a shuttle. Yeah, yeah.
Mike:So how many total miles of trail are up there? Up there A lot.
Nat:There's probably over 50. But we're kind of in this off the Mount Graham Highway which is called the Swift Highway main access point. We're kind of really tied into that. We're trying to do the most kind of like.
Josh:So you can shuttle, yeah, shuttle, easy logistics and there's a lot of spots where people can jump in in different areas there.
Nat:Right, yeah, these can be three different rides. Yeah, you don't have to do this massive thing. And then there's another trail we're working on the backside, which is Shake, which is a longer shuttle. That's probably an hour shuttle around, but that's a 5 mile 3,000 foot descent. It ends in a campground, it's.
Josh:Fort Grant right, Doesn't it end down in Fort?
Nat:Grant Stockton Passes.
Josh:Stockton Pass.
Nat:Stockton Pass is named the campground, so the logistics are a little tougher on that one. But you have to go around the backside of the mountain, you have to go around the backside of the mountain. But what we're going to be looking at when we're kind of get through some of the work that's coming up, that's being done with both crews and our own work, is that we'll be aiming to, you know, sponsor shuttle days, so you don't have to deal with that.
Nat:so oh, that's interesting, so you go out you go out and you know, maybe one day, in one day, you absolutely could do the graham cracker or s'mores. So you and and then Add on shake and you'd have a 10,000 foot descending day.
Mike:Wow, it's a good day yeah.
Josh:Yeah, cuz it, can you get picked up at angles, orchard, and then just drive you back up to to ladybug and you can jump on shake right there.
Nat:Right, I have the van come around and meet you. Yeah, and the reasons it shakes, shake rides. Well, so it does. It ends up in a more remote place, but it's a good trail. So you know, and it's a 3,000 foot descent.
Mike:Huh, interesting, so, oh. So what is on the horizon? As far as you mentioned, you have some crews helping clear all this and the next steps. So Every time you go out, you've got like what kind of crew? How many people out there helping you out?
Nat:Yeah, so We've had a number of weekends this summer. I guess we've been doing them since well, actually spring through summer, but I really got ramped up kind of marketing them more to the public in summer. So we've had Memorial day, we had one in June, we just had one in mid-July and we're gonna have one in mid-August and then early September. So all of those have had between like 10 and 15 people.
Mike:There's still room for more help, though, if people want to sign up.
Nat:That's true, absolutely, and you don't you know? You can actually go out to Mount Graham for one night if you want to. You could go out for the day. A day is actually doable, it's a, it's a pole. But if you don't have a whole weekend, you want to go for one overnight, or come on, do it. We always provide free camping and we work like, like this weekend we were gonna be at Arcadia campground, which was gonna be probably in the 90s because of this heat wave, oh yeah so we moved it up to Shannon, up to 8900 feet, because we want.
Nat:You know, we want this to be fun and we want you to be like okay, I'm gonna go out there, I'm gonna get out of the heat and I'm gonna get to do some trail work and I get to do some riding and we always ride too it's not just like we beat you down out there. So those are SDMB Lead volunteer weekends. But what we've also got going on is the Forest Service has funds to recover from the fire fry fire and they are allocating a Variety of resources to get trails open to do the work. That's just too big for us and try to get to a level set. The idea is here that we get the trails to a level set so volunteers, a mix of volunteers and resources from the forest, can keep up with the maintenance here over here, so you don't have the degradation of quality right.
Nat:So what's going on right now, which has happened quite recently, like just this last week, I ended up staying, I did a volunteer weekend this weekend and then I stayed on Monday to meet with Some state fire crews that had been allocated with some of this money for the fry fire recovery. So there's there's 40 people out working on the mountain right now opening up every day three, three-twelfths a week twelve a week. Three twelve is a week. They're camped out.
Mike:Yeah, and it's just for the, the trails that you guys are working on.
Nat:That's in the restoration from the fire so there's a mix like Arcadia trail they can't work on because of wildlife spotted our restrictions Right. Ladybug is out of the burn scar, so it doesn't count and that's kind of our baby We've adopted that. It's in good enough shape. We really don't need crews to go through there.
Nat:So then, because this isn't just Mount Graham's restoration, isn't all just about mountain biking, arrest in DMP or Nat's wishes, like yeah, we want the mountain to be open because it's important, it's a great place to go and people miss it so, like when we had the ability to kind of influence the direction of these crews, we took feedback from the community and they're opening web peak loop, which is a trail that's been was severely burned and has been very hard to keep open. They just got that cleared out and a section of Ash Creek and then they're gonna work on what we spoke about earlier, the Grand Hill loops. Those are not things SDM be is super focused on now, but they have value Because when you're on the upper mountain as just a few weeks ago, before these crews started working, there weren't many places you could go on a contiguous, short fun hike without tons of deadfall.
Josh:Yeah, and if you go, and if you, if you have bros that like can't ride the downhill stuff, I just put them on Grant's loop, right, and they can like do circles for an hour and come pick you up at down at Angles Orcher right, right, exactly, and so We've got crews working on that and then in the fall when the restrictions lift, then we will be getting some contracted Non-profit resources.
Nat:So not government trail crews, but also not for profit, because the Forest Service has rules. You most of the trip. They either have to be, in Most cases, government agencies or pre-approved nonprofits to do the trail work.
Mike:I didn't realize how much coordination really is involved with these projects, from government entities to Managing.
Josh:This is what I was like when we were talking to Patrick and Tucker and they're like hey. This is private land. We can decide in the morning what we want to do in the afternoon. Yeah, that can be months and months. Yeah get approval for it. For it on public land.
Nat:Yeah, exactly, and we. There's also some level of unpredictability as to when we'll get the crews, because the type of work we're having them do, which is restoration, so there's a. There had been some money that was allocated to the state crews to do the restoration, but then they were moved off. They were working on there two years ago, then they were moved off to do thinning work because there was more of a demand of that right.
Josh:So what's what's thinning work?
Nat:Yeah, thinning work would be going out. It's proactive versus reactive, so fire management fire management. So making sure if there's too much fuel which is downed, wood and debris, you got to get that out of there and you got to create these piles that will that they'll do prescribe burning on, so they're going out and doing that. Very cool.
Mike:So switching gears a little bit, but related to what we were talking about here is on SDMB's website. It talks about and you alluded to this the diversity and inclusion and this is one of the. On the outreach committee there's a call out for folks to help out on the four different committees. Sure, and I was. I was really struck by this. I like this with. You're trying to diversify the membership which you talked about, and it make mountain biking more attractive To a wide range of groups.
Mike:Yes young people physically challenge minorities, special needs, and then also engaging like urban youth. The one that comes to mind is like the hundred acre wood park in Tucson really cool Handcycle, underserved audiences.
Nat:Yeah.
Mike:I mean the full gamut that you guys are Trying to accomplish here is really commendable and I think it make a bit, yeah, make a big difference in the community just on two, you know two wheels. But it does take, you know, well-designed trails to like that mentions to attract both beginners, intermediate and advanced riders. Yep, and I would think that's a challenge you know. Talk about the coordination big mountain.
Mike:Yeah you know, but but having something for everybody. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on on that part of the. You know the SDMB's mission and that, but it's pretty cool.
Nat:No, no, no. Thanks for bringing it up. And and I do, I'm I actually. You know the way I'm going on about Mount Graham. You would think it's just all big mountain and Dura, mount Graham. But that's just one part of what I do and obviously just one part of SDMB. And, yeah, I have been involved in the outreach, diversity and inclusion committee.
Nat:Most of our committees kind of fell apart during the pandemic. So that is one thing I would say, if I may plug while I'm on here, is we need help on the committees. They fell apart during the pandemic because it was just hard to get people to participate and we need to rebuild them because we're all volunteers and the board members can't do the lift on their own. So Go to our website. There's a blog post about the committees. There's a plea to please come help us check that out.
Nat:Before the committees had kind of Suffered the impacts of COVID, I had gone on to an outreach diversity, inclusion committee meeting and you, yeah, to give that a little, give you a little more insight on that. It was Much like we said. Our board didn't look like the community. It's like mountain biking doesn't look like the community right and like there's the same kind of people are riding mountain bikes. So how do we do that? But I thought the thing I liked about being in that committee was how do we do that and it not seem contrived or gimmicky? Right yeah, right.
Nat:So it's gotta be genuine right, and that's through recruitment of folks that you know Do have the ability to reach folks that may traditionally not be involved or interested in mountain biking or have access or whatever. So we're working. We've when we had the committee up and running and we're rebuilding it. Now we have folks on the committee that are doing that and we're going out and saying, hey, how can we? You know, what do you think will interest people that are in your community or you think are underserved, and how can we reach them? And it may not even be, it may not even be mountain biking as a gateway, it may be partnering with other groups and saying let's just get into cycling and try to work with them and Then invite them for mountain biking when they get more interest. Right, like so we're thinking through things like that.
Nat:One of the things we've done is subsidized mountain bike instruction, which we think is improving access. So I don't know if you've seen, we've been doing beginner clinics lately, yeah, the bike skills and a bike Academy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've been doing that. So, kent from our board mega kudos to him. That was his idea and that's been like a smash hit right, nice, you know what's that get them hooked young?
Nat:Yeah, exactly, and it's been, it's been all, it's been all ages. I will actually take that back. I think it is like 12 and up. So we haven't done youth camps yet, but but we have a. You know, we have a good relationship with El Grupo and they do stuff like that, yep yeah so Can you? Can you give me back on topic here?
Josh:No, no okay, let me just. Let me just dive down for a second. So so I Think we have some folks that have been guests that might be able to help you with that objective, that have kind of like their own organizations in Tucson that are diverse, and I'm thinking like genuine BMX, and then I'm thinking about ride Tucson and Jesus from ride Tucson.
Josh:Yeah so maybe there's some relationships and maybe we can plug. If you guys aren't aren't already plugged into those guys, we can help you guys get plugged in and maybe help with that objective.
Nat:Yeah, I feel like everybody knows everybody, but we may not be asking the right question for that particular purpose right yeah. Yeah, so that's awesome. Yeah, and the, and that's the thing. Like you don't have to join the board, you don't have to give up your life. Could you come to a couple committee meetings and give us feedback or guide us if you want to be on the committee long term? Cool. If not just give us your thoughts?
Josh:How many members do you guys have right now? Do you know Roughly?
Mike:300 ish, Wow yeah it's a big organization, yeah, and the other part of that on the committee is the advocacy. Yes which I think goes hand-in-hand with what you just mentioned, sure, and we talked about like strategies, implements, way to promote mountain biking and trails and and that, and can you talk to us a little bit about where, like the be cool trail safety and etiquette initiatives?
Nat:Yeah, sure, that's been a long-standing campaign of SDM bees it is. You know, be cool is the slogan, but I think it's the way I take it is treat others how you would want to be treated right and if you had a mountain bike barreling down at you and, you know, buzzed you. No one wants to be treated that way.
Josh:You're not gonna like the next mountain bike, you see right, right and and behind.
Nat:That is the way we talk about be cool, and the bike ambassadors are. We can talk about that too, they're kind of an offshoot of that.
Nat:Yeah that's a newer program, but it's. It's about Good etiquette, good behavior, being cool, right, yeah, and being a good role model. Like, hey, mountain bikers slow down for me, you know, like they were considerate, they'd you know, and they do trail work, like they're promoting the positive aspects of mountain biking and and reminding people that they have a Responsibility on how to behave on the trail. So we continue to maintain our good partnership with the land managers and fellow users. Yeah, and I would say, be cool. Even applies to, you know, don't cut a cattle gate.
Josh:Stuff like that, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah for our listeners. What's a cattle gate?
Nat:It's a well here that you guys I'm. I'm not from the Southwest, but they're called cowboy gates, right, the ones that are made of like the sticks and barbed wire, and essentially they're a A gate that it's pulled over a section of trail to prevent the cows from getting through.
Mike:Yeah, because we have open grazing on some of the yeah the trailer in some cases will come to a to a to a to a gate.
Josh:That's just basically barbed wire and they'll be like kind of a it's. It's a little like I don't know a rinky-dinky, the way that it connects, but you have to unhook it, pull it aside, get your bike through and like, and it can be a you know.
Mike:Close it in five minutes but like you know.
Josh:Yeah, open it, Don't damage it. Yeah, put it back the way you found it, because it's there for a reason right, yeah they're.
Nat:I mean they're complex right to the new. If you're not familiar with them because you got to kind of stretch this barbed wire, maybe you know I might might get cut trying to do that. But in general, if you're patient and take the time you can figure it out.
Nat:Yeah, I think it's a next it's it's one thing to leave it open because you couldn't figure out or you didn't want to deal with it. It's another to just cut it right. Yeah, don't cut it right. So yeah that. That cutting the the cattle gates being uncool, yeah, being uncool right on.
Mike:Favorite part that I have to share on the website was the compensation.
Nat:Oh, yeah, that's a good one.
Mike:Yeah, it is the pay, Knowing that you are making to sound a better place to ride, priceless yeah.
Nat:I, I agree with that. So, yeah, none of us get paid. Folks work hard, they. They give a lot of. I mean, I like on a Mount Graham weekend I have people we tend not to haul the trailer because it's just that road unless you got to bring it. You don't want to bring the trailer right.
Nat:So, we load up tools in people's cars. I've got a Compact SUV. I can get some tools in there. When we get a bigger crew, I need somebody to come by with a truck. So people come by with a truck, they load up the easy up, they load up the tools, they load up the cooler, like they're making time right. And then even people when they're out there, because we want to take care of the volunteers, especially the newbies, we're out there shuttling them, you know.
Nat:So there's there's a lot of work or people going up and setting up the be cool, the be cool trailer oh, sorry, the be cool 10 at the trail had to to let users know that mountain bikes, mountain bikers, want to be a Positive influence on trail use and tell people about rules of the trails. Another thing would be our bike ambassadors, which is that programs about two years old now. So we have. It's not a patrol, it's just Well, it's a patrol but it's an enforcement right. So there's no, you know they're just out there to make sure People know to be cool, aren't lost If they need directions, need help, something like that, and also just to kind of keep an eye on Trail conditions.
Josh:They're looking out for the trail, looking out for the users, exactly.
Nat:Yeah, yeah, yeah and and yeah. And trying to like, smile, be friendly, get people stoked, you know yeah, yeah, how does, how do you become a trail ambassador? You just send an email to President at SDM, be do or G, and you say I'm interested in being a trail ambassador and you will be engaged. Cool, yeah, you, I mean you've got to go through the process, which? Is like where do you want to do it? When can you do it? You know, huh.
Josh:What's? Do you know what the commitment time commitment is? I mean we can look all this stuff up and play there. I'm asking you quite on yeah, no, no, no, it's cool but.
Nat:I, but I'm glad I can speak to most of these things, right? So we just don't know dead air here, right? Yeah so, yeah, if you have an interest, and most of it's it's people that they their trails, that they regularly go to or near their house and they Go patrol right. Yeah, so yeah, and it's cool and you get.
Josh:I think you get a jersey if you, you know yeah, yeah, we'll put a link to that in the show. This is okay.
Mike:I don't know where I would time, but I do have one more question.
Josh:Okay, yeah.
Mike:Okay, so you you briefly mentioned this before. So you know, working on the trails, coordinating all that but the grant writing, private sponsorships is that part of what you do as chair of development as well?
Nat:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've applied for grants and now I'm like doing the after you get the grants.
Mike:There's a whole bunch of you know, admin you need to do to make sure yeah, right.
Nat:Yeah, yeah, you're just reporting and like expensing and all that stuff. So yeah, I do, I do that. We're not like a lot of the Like new things we need to big bucks for have happened, like a lot of the trails that were built, that Tucson Mountain Park, like yeah, that's been done. So I haven't been doing a ton of that.
Nat:But, that's TMP that you refer to, right? Yeah, so I'm on part, yeah, yeah, yeah, to some mountain park TMP. There were some very big grants to try to get new construction done out there, but that's not where we're at right now. We're doing more restoration, right.
Nat:And and the money's coming from other other pots, not ones we're having to generate. And grant writing is a lot of work, yeah, and a lot of admin after you get them. So I Think with me in the fundraising chair once I learned about what grant writing took unless it was just somebody was like here, we'll just give you some money I was like we want to be very careful about what grants we go after and it's really worth it right.
Nat:Sure, yeah, that's yeah, so there's that and then, yeah, so I'm also looking at getting with our sponsors and donors and We've had some level of organization around how we engage them and and you know, kind of the give and the get, but that's that. A lot of things have changed since that was kind of Really well designed back in 2017. Like a lot of that was built around a time when, like a website mentioned mattered people Don't you really use websites anymore.
Nat:It's all social media now right, yeah and and then you know we would get into situations like well, should we ask this person again now I think we've asked them too much. And then we ask, and then we don't. We don't include them in something Like hey, why didn't you ask? Development's a funny thing, isn't it right? Yeah, yeah so with that software I mentioned earlier buying, it's like we're gonna try to digitize. Like you know, how often do they want?
Josh:to be asked.
Nat:Yeah how do we show gratitude is one of the things you know. Like because they're doing stuff for us and we were super grateful and in most cases they love us, so like what's the right level and right?
Josh:How do we make it a win-win and?
Nat:let's have it documented who owns the relationship at the org, you know, and also because there's turnover right, we've got to have that somewhere where newcomers can go in and get it. So yeah, that's part of it, yeah yeah.
Josh:So hey now, is there anything that we didn't cover, that you were wanting to cover? And let me. I'm gonna ask a question again, but I have something we I don't think we've talked enough about how folks can can sign up to volunteer. So so talk us through that again. What's the what's the right way for folks to volunteer, either here in Tucson, with you in Mount Graham?
Nat:And it depends how you want to volunteer, right? If you are interested in those committees that we talked about earlier, you can go to SDMBOorg and look at the blog post there, and that's got all the info you need on how to get involved in a committee got you. If you want to get involved in trail work. You can follow us on Facebook or on Instagram. We tend to post that stuff there, right? We do send out emails occasionally, with our events coming up right.
Nat:But I would say, yeah, contact us either through our website, which has our email, or one of the social media channels you can ask the question or kind of browse through the post there and if you see something, and if you don't, then shoot us a note and we'll get you involved.
Josh:Yeah, Well, hey, man, on behalf of like all the mountain bikers in southern Arizona, just thank you and thank your organization and thank your volunteers for all that you're doing.
Nat:Yeah.
Josh:I want to highlight and shout out the the focus on, on, you know, having a more diverse organization. I think that's super noble and I think it's the right thing to do, and I think it's gonna make the sport stronger and and grow faster, which ultimately is what we want, because more riders, you know, more resources, more everything. So yeah super appreciative. Thank you so much, man.
Mike:You got anything you want to yeah, no, we enjoy the trails, so thank you, thank you very much for all that without
Josh:you, we'd have nothing to ride.
Nat:Yeah, yeah, they know our pleasure and you know, please, the the the best gratitude is getting involved. Come out to a trail day, and I would say a couple things in closing. So we talked a lot about Graham, that graham cracker thing right now. This fall it's gonna be, it's gonna be almost in an ideal state and in 2024 it absolutely should be, and beyond that we're also gonna have this fall. We do our brushtober thing. So if you want to stay local and help get the trails recovered After the monsoon season, look out for our brushtober event, which is fall trail maintenance.
Nat:Yes, right so so yeah, come join us and.
Mike:Yeah.
Nat:Thanks for riding the trails and, yeah, tell your friends, get out there, get the stoke.
Mike:Thanks a lot. Yeah, thanks you you.
