Mountain Cog
Hosted by an enthusiast and a mountain bike industry expert featuring laughter and passionate guests.
Mountain Cog
085 – Building & maintaining big mountain trails on a desert sky island. (TORCA, Nick Giovannucci & Matt Hrabko)
In this episode Josh & Dane sit down with the President (Nick Giovannucci) and Vice President (Matt Hrabko) of the Tucson Off-Road Cyclists and Activists (TORCA). They are doing some amazing work relative to building & maintaining big mountain trails on Mt. Lemmon in Southern Arizona.
The mission of Tucson Off-Road Cyclists and Activists (TORCA) is "To preserve the tradition, condition, and etiquette of the trail; and to present novel trail opportunities in a sustainable and responsible manner."
They represent all facets of the mountain biking community and enjoy riding all of the trails that Tucson has to offer. TORCA invites you to get involved so that mountain biking's voice becomes louder and our trails get faster!
TORCA...
Web: https://www.torca.org/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/torcamtb/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TucsonTORCA/
Santa Catalina Trails Plan: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/coronado/home/?cid=FSEPRD974570
Home Grown MTB: https://homegrownmtb.com/
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people get upset with you. People get upset with me, especially with my security clearance. They all think I'm smoking weed. No, they want you to be small.
Dane:I know I wish I could. And then they're like what he's just slurping water.
Josh:So what? What'd you think, Matt? Was the music good?
Matt Hrabko:That was a lot better than it was before.
Josh:We started the podcast early and Matt's like I thought he said is that supposed to be music? And what he was really saying is is there supposed to be music?
Dane:Because we're all dancing and his headphones weren't working.
Josh:And I'm like screw you, screw you, man, I wrote that song. All right, man, you got something for us I do.
Nick Giovannucci:How does everyone feel about a dad joke? Oh, let's hear it. Yeah, we like it. What do you call deer with no eyes?
Dane:I have no idea oh, you ruined it. This is what you get for telling Dana no it's because I always feel like I never have the answer. I wanted to win this time.
Josh:At least one time I wanted to win, I cheated because Nick told me the joke, so I knew.
Nick Giovannucci:Should have had another one ready.
Josh:I know that was a good joke, by the way I got to admit, I always mess up dad jokes.
Matt Hrabko:I always get the punchline wrong. I can never guess Eileen or something.
Dane:Yeah, I can never remember the joke.
Josh:And then I, yeah, I ended up doing it, it's so funny that, like the one that Matt brought, was the exact same one that we used in last week with the last recording with Corbin.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, that's what happens when you Google search. Dad jokes yeah Well, yeah well. We did that too, like five minutes before the podcast.
Josh:Oh yeah, no, that's exactly how I came up with that one, so that's probably. Yeah, I texted Matt. I'm like, bring a dad joke, dad joke of the week, but Nick brought one and then Dane ruined it. Yep, hey, so we're here with the guys from TORCA. Torca are the Tucson off-road cyclists and activists.
Matt Hrabko:We have Nick Damn look at that.
Josh:It's almost like I'm a linguist and Matt Rabko.
Matt Hrabko:Ooh, spot on which.
Dane:I just recently got corrected because I've been calling you Harabko forever and Dane slapped me over the head this weekend at sunrise I had to ask him how to pronounce it, just because I kept writing it and I'm like I have no idea how to pronounce your name.
Josh:And he told me when does your last name come from?
Matt Hrabko:What nationality is it? It's like somewhere in the hungary region, okay, um, this is way before what hungary is now.
Dane:So it's like somewhere in romania, czechoslovakia, somewhere in there it's, it's cool, it's very different, like it's definitely not a jones or a smith. So okay.
Josh:So torca, you know the tucson off-road cyclist and activist. They got a mission to preserve the tradition, condition and etiquette of the trail and to present novel trail opportunities in a sustainable and reasonable manner. Is that still your mission statement, did I do? Okay? If not, your website's out of date.
Matt Hrabko:That is spot on, very good.
Dane:Matt's like that sounds good, that sounds real good.
Matt Hrabko:Did I write that? Did you write that you might?
Josh:have no, no, not you.
Josh:Our legendary forefathers wrote that the forefathers, the TORCA forefathers and mothers and they represent the facets of mountain biking, all facets of mountain biking community. Enjoy riding all of the trails that Tucson has to offer. Yes, so we are a. So, guys, as we're talking today, we are a global podcasts. We have listeners from like literally all over the world, many, many, many countries. So, as we're talking about kind of local Tucson stuff, if we can take a vibe to like kind of apply it outside of Tucson, so like maybe other trail advocacy groups, um, you know, both within the United States, canada and then internationally, you guys could help us with that, that'd be awesome.
Dane:Yeah, what do you think Can you do? It Sounds good, sound good, right on man. All right. So you know I've got, I've got questions. So can you guys introduce yourselves? Maybe do Nick first and then Matt and introduce, just kind of tell us a little bit who you are and your role in TORCA.
Nick Giovannucci:Yeah, I can do that. My name is Nick Giovannucci. I am T that. Uh, my name is nick giovanucci. I am torca president. I've been president since last october, so almost a year now. Um, I've been, I think, volunteering since 2018. Ish, I've been the treasurer for the last few years and a board member as well. Um, like to get involved? Uh, we need new trails and I want to make that happen, especially at mount lemon. Uh, enjoy riding all those trails up there, as well as anything in tucson and wherever I can bring my bike to outside of the state or some town.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, um, I am matt rabco and I've been a board member since 2018. And yeah, I just like getting my hands dirty and, you know, making sweet trails for everyone to enjoy.
Josh:All right. So along with your roles in, you know, in Torca, that's great. But I'm interested like how did you guys initially get involved in like trail advocacy, like did it start with Torca, or like you know what's your background?
Nick Giovannucci:in mountain biking. How'd you get involved in, like trail advocacy, like, did it start with torco or like you know what's your background in mountain biking? How'd you get, how'd you get involved in in trail advocacy? We'll start with you, nick. So I've been riding for about 10 years now, which is a lot less than matt. So, um, he's got a much deeper background than I have, but you can tell from his gray beard.
Josh:Yeah, that's where it starts, buddy. This is like you know. This is the next gen, right here.
Dane:Nick has like no gray hairs, yet my beard is red when it grows.
Nick Giovannucci:And I mean I wanted to ride and I had a very hard time when I moved here, uh, right after college and started riding bikes and I didn't really know how to network with people who rode. And I eventually found a few people and started doing work with them and being able to understand where, why trails are a certain way and see them kind of up close without a bike and understand why certain features are this way or that way and wanting to give back and feeling like there's not enough people who do that. My wife and I got super involved and she is currently our secretary. I'm an Eagle Scout, I volunteered a lot when I was doing that and I feel like it's a good thing to do and more people need to do it and I'm trying to set a good example.
Josh:So you're like force multiplying now it's not just your time. You're like organizing others and getting getting others Exactly.
Nick Giovannucci:And I never thought I'd be the president. I know, years ago people were like, oh, you're going to be the president one day and I was like I don't know if I'm ready for that. And then it happened and I think I'm doing pretty well.
Matt Hrabko:Is he doing well?
Nick Giovannucci:Matt.
Josh:Is he doing well?
Matt Hrabko:He's doing pretty all right. That's high praise, actually I know Matt.
Josh:That's high praise from Matt right.
Dane:You don't get like an attaboy that much.
Josh:So you came to Tucson, got into the scene. We're like, who do I meet? And you're like, hey, how the hell did these trails get here? How do they keep maintain? And you started researching, and then your background and being an Eagle scout. I think this might be the first Eagle scout we've had on the podcast.
Dane:That's awesome. I didn't make it that far. I've dropped out right before that and like I am envious cause that's pretty awesome.
Josh:Yeah, it is super awesome, so you just took what you learned there and you're applying it now to the mountain bike scene. So that's awesome, man, matt, what about?
Matt Hrabko:you brother. Oh man, Um, I mean I started mountain biking back at the turn of the century and wait well, which century?
Nick Giovannucci:The previous one?
Matt Hrabko:okay, yeah, so 20 x years, early 1900s, that is 700 years old I am part vampire now um, yeah, uh, when I've got into, uh, high school, um got introduced to this cool thing called mountain biking. Um, which I thought was just a bunch of geeks on spandex with weird extensions on their bars like pedaling super fast.
Dane:They're only weird if they're not anodized. Yeah Well, that was the cool part is they anodized colors back then?
Matt Hrabko:But then my friend showed me New World Disorder and people sending off of huge cliffs and jumping and metal music and it was super bad-ass.
Dane:Yes.
Matt Hrabko:And I'm like yo, yeah, that's what I want to do. Chain smoke oh yeah.
Dane:So all that's hope traction. Oh yeah, oh that's, I still have all of those yeah, On like you're not talking about chain smoking. No, it's, it's chain. Smoke the video. Chain smokes the video.
Josh:Cause yeah, Like cause when we first started riding, we used to take smoke breaks in the middle of our ride. They're called safety meetings safety meetings.
Dane:There you go, yeah, yeah. No, the videos that you just I mean those were the iconic ones that started and that's what we would. We would sit around and watch those before a race to get psyched up.
Josh:So we have like four generations of mountain bikers here. Yes, it's super interesting. Yeah, you know, we got kind of next gen Yep, mid gen Yep, then like kind of the boomer gen and then like the world war two.
Dane:Yeah, I'm like ancient. He says that all the time. I'm 29 years old.
Josh:He's like four years older than me.
Dane:Pretty sure I'm like 13 years younger than you.
Josh:You keep thinking that buddy, you keep thinking that, so how'd you get that? So that's how you got into mountain biking. How'd you get into advocacy?
Matt Hrabko:Uh, well, you know, I've always, uh, you know, built sketchy jumps in the back of my house and stuff like that, and in the woods where I wasn't supposed to, and um, so that was cool and, yeah, started building cat trails.
Dane:Social trails.
Matt Hrabko:Out and around there and maintaining them, and it's a really cool place to do it. There's trees and there's dirt. There's a stuff called dirt. Yeah, it's brown and it's amazing to dig in. You can actually dig into any rocks in this dirt Zero rocks.
Josh:What the joke here is. We live in the desert, yeah, and it's basically like you know even the dirt is hard as the dirt, the rocks it's.
Dane:It's really tough to like, create and maintain trails here in tucson you have to take a like a pick or a like a breaker bar and like, chip the dirt away. That's yeah.
Matt Hrabko:Sometimes dynamite, yes, yeah when I first moved here, people describe the terrain as we have rocks with little rocks in between it. That's about right but it.
Josh:But don't let us turn you off. It is some of the best riding in the country it's incredible.
Matt Hrabko:I believe that yeah 100, so okay.
Josh:So that's how you got like unofficially like kind of doing social trails and Santa Cruz when you're in college. How'd you get like into organized advocacy?
Matt Hrabko:Well, moved here to Tucson yeah.
Josh:When did you move?
Matt Hrabko:here, matt, that was fall of 18 and, like the next weekend, like I didn't know anybody here, like I didn't know anything, I've never ridden here, um, so, uh, that weekend there is this cool party that torco was putting on. Uh, it's called the pachanga, and it was a whole weekend of barbecues, shuttle rides, funderos, uh, demos, um, and I'm like, oh, that sounds fun, I'll sign up for that. Dude, I don't even know about this.
Josh:I've been riding mountain bikes for 25 years. I've never heard of this. So we gotta, we have to work on your marketing and also you can tell me more me more about it.
Nick Giovannucci:We should resurrect it, it is a lot of work. Resurrect it, man, let's do it.
Dane:Yeah, we need some more people on the board. They have the pachanga.
Matt Hrabko:Oh, I don't know, but that was the last one. I know that. That was when Rocky was there on a bike or a mini version, but it kept getting bigger, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's super sick and um and yeah. So I didn't know anybody and I was supposed to be camping up there, but I didn't know this was all on mount lemon yeah, this is all about lemon right on. And so I just rolled in with, like, my enduro bike, my hardtail, my cross-country gear, my downhill gear, my drug like everything.
Josh:I have no idea what's going.
Nick Giovannucci:I don't know, what's going, what to expect?
Matt Hrabko:Like I brought my tent, food for like a week and then like a case of beer, and I just went down to all the campsites and played hey, mister, can I be your friend? Yeah, um and uh, yeah, ended up meeting some of the best friends I have now, and then also Tara, um and art, who were president, the founders of homegrown mountain biking tours.
Josh:Yeah, shout out to Tara. I don't remember what episode, I'll put it in the show notes, but Tara has been on the podcast before when we talked about homegrown. So shout out to Tara, she's awesome.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, so yeah, and being them and I'm like, hey, I like to do trail work, they're like, come on out to red Ridge and you know, go play trails with us. And so that was pretty much the start of that, yeah, and so it was like my on-trail interview for Torca and Homegrown at the same time. That's awesome.
Josh:And you currently work for Homegrown, is that right? Yeah, for well, since then, however many years, that is, since 2018. Yeah, wow. So you just like randomly went to a party in the mountains? Yeah, Met all your best friends, got a job like it all just came from there, yeah, and eventually, in a couple different steps, uh led to me meeting my wife too. Oh wow, yeah, right on, dude, yeah, so I guess that means like go to go to mountain bike parties, because that's your life, can change exactly it's true, usually for the better.
Josh:You may get a job and a wife, yep so nick we, uh, we read earlier kind of torca's mission statement of preserving tradition, condition and etiquette of the trail and to present novel trail opportunities in a sustainable and responsible manner. Hey, what does novel mean, dame?
Dane:uh, it's a book I believe that you read.
Josh:I'm pretty sure I think it means new, right, new and interesting. New and interesting damn it, but uh, okay, so we've. We've learned about y'all's background and appreciate the information there. Tell us a little bit more about TORCA. Tell us about the organization, your goals, your members. How do you guys operate?
Nick Giovannucci:What are your operating tenets? So we are, that's a big question. That's a big question, I know, I know, I know.
Josh:All these questions are going to be big questions, so just get ready for it.
Matt Hrabko:It also depends on who you ask too. Well, I'm asking the president of Torca, so if he, can't answer.
Nick Giovannucci:we got problems, no pressure brother, so I can't. I'm probably not going to answer that directly, but I'll give you some of the background of kind of where we're at. So currently we are a board of five people, um, which is very small and, uh, there's a lot going on right now. How?
Josh:many members? If you have five people on the board, how many? How many contributors do you and volunteers do you have? Would you estimate?
Matt Hrabko:so we have 200 um members.
Josh:Yes, 200 members members yeah, and you're looking to expand your board to have folks um what more folks contribute?
Nick Giovannucci:yes, definitely we. Currently we have bylaws that have been written and voted on by the member base and the way to change them is pretty arduous and not easy. We have welcome to big organizations.
Josh:Exactly.
Nick Giovannucci:We have five people there. I think everyone is a very solid contributor right now. That's good. We want to expand that to lighten the load as well, as we're also kind of working with someone for starting over the last month or so to kind of be a contractor for us to help us with fundraising, grant writing better, more publicity and engaging the community more right on that, I think, is probably the biggest thing we want to do and to help us run our organization and grow it. Some of the listeners I know who are local probably will know about the Santa Catalina trails plan. Currently. I mean, I think in 2021, there was the comment period for that and then 2022, the actual plan came out, and then we are currently phase one is partially approved.
Josh:So for our international listeners, we've got this badass mountain like right in the center of Tucson.
Nick Giovannucci:We call it.
Josh:Mount.
Matt Hrabko:Lemon, but it's part of the Santa Catalinas.
Josh:Yes, Santa Cantalinas.
Matt Hrabko:Catalinas.
Josh:Catalinas, jesus Christ, you'd think I could pronounce that I've lived here for 25 years.
Dane:Have you had enough whiskey? No, Okay. I was thinking you need a little more.
Josh:So we have this amazing resource in Tucson this amazing mountain, badass, vertical drop, great mountain, like like resource in Tucson this amazing mountain, bad-ass, vertical drop, great mountain, bike trails, raw, epic, just amazing, like one of the best places in the country to ride. So when you're referencing the Santa Catalina, that's what you're talking about is like trails plan for that background.
Josh:So like, like you know, for international listeners, like if you haven't been to Tucson, god damn it, get out here Like we are. Bike town USA it is, it is sick out here. Bike town usa it is, it is sick out here. And uh, not many people know this and tara talked about this a bit and obviously with homegrown, but we've got just fucking badass downhill riding here.
Nick Giovannucci:We do, but keep going yeah, so we're in the process of of kind of expanding that mountain. We have a lot of great potential. Um, currently, the whole front range is is in wilderness and we can't have bikes in there, but the whole main mid-mountain is all up for grabs. Everything is multi-use though. So, working with the Forest Service and having us represented as a major user group and getting more mileage Because currently there's really kind of two ways down the mountain. Now, the back side, which is red ridge that we mentioned, which is a little bit more back country uh, it's uh not if you have a flat or you break a bended derailleur hanger, if you don't have tram transmission, um, you going to be in for a rough time. Zing, there you go.
Dane:If you don't have SRAM transmission, if you're running anything but Shimano you're screwed. Notice how he didn't say Shimano. No, he didn't, he didn't he didn't he didn't, I'm going to put my Shimano tag on Please put
Nick Giovannucci:it on. I had to throw that in there. But that's a great ride and not too many people get to ride it very often because it is pretty remote. But the full Lemon Drop comes down what is called the front side of the mountain.
Josh:Yeah, so what is the Lemon Drop? We've talked about the Lemon Drop a little bit, but kind of, maybe give us some, since you referenced it. Give us some explanation of what the lemon drop is.
Nick Giovannucci:So the lemon drop is 30, 32 ish miles down kind of the South face of the mountain. There's a bunch of different segments. They're all different trails. The easiest one of them is a intermediate slash, advanced. More than half of them are double black diamond, very technical, very exposed, very raw. There's roughly what eight to nine thousand feet of descent in there. Um, with about three or four thousand feet of ascent. It is no, no easy feat to do, um, I've done it once from the bottom to top. There is a very few select people who like to pedal up from the bottom and do all those trails self-supported self-supported yeah, they have a sag crew helping them with that, though, so do you remember your time?
Dane:what was your time?
Nick Giovannucci:I think it took about seven ish hours. I know I almost lost a pedal off a spindle at the starter or at the end of green mountain. Um, it is amazing, and you see every type of terrain starting, your time was seven hours from the bottom to no, no, we had a shuttle. Oh, from the top, from the top down.
Josh:Yeah, I was about to like bow down to you, no, no I do want to do it self.
Nick Giovannucci:I do want to do it self-supported and do the water fill up, but there's a very small window of weather that that is doable.
Dane:I think my time was nine hours and it was a no-joke ride. There's a lot more climbing than you think yeah exactly.
Josh:If it's 3,000 to 4,000 feet of climbing, that's a lot of climbing. It is a lot.
Dane:Because you think I'm going to be at the top of the mountain. I might end up at the bottom, but yeah, there's a lot of ridges in between.
Josh:Yeah, just shout out to the Mount Graham. Oh yeah, the Graham Cracker 6,800 feet of descent. I don't think there's any climbing.
Nick Giovannucci:Not that I can remember. Is there any?
Matt Hrabko:climbing. You just did it just a little bit, not nearly as much as the uh as the lemon drop for sure on the trail, not but to get to all right.
Josh:So we're not talking about mount graham, we're talking about santa cana.
Nick Giovannucci:Litas, go for it so, yeah, there's basically one way down that south side of the mountain and the last trail that was built was built about 10 years ago or so, maybe 11 years ago, and that was incinerator ridge, um, and there hasn't been any new builds since, or any sanctioned new builds. So there's been a few unsanctioned, but they're not that long. We won't talk about that. This trails plan is really focusing on adding mileage for every user group, so mountain bikers, hikers and the equestrian uh user groups, as well as access to hiking trails for the climbers. Uh, we are, we push very hard to get as much mileage in there as possible. Um, there are three or four trails I don't know if we should get into them in detail right now um that that have been submitted as of what last wednesday, I think, technically was the user group meeting that we had um and nobody objected to anyone else's trails.
Nick Giovannucci:So that is the kickoff for the approval process, which phase two for phase, which is not super quick, unfortunately, because, because, the government.
Josh:Yeah, I mean best I can tell like shovels in the ground a year from now.
Matt Hrabko:If you're lucky, our best case. If I'm lucky, or like two you think it's two years- Hopefully a year and a half.
Nick Giovannucci:I hope for closer to a year, but no, you're probably right, matt, I'm probably too optimistic on that. But yeah, with that approval process it goes through an archaeological survey, endangered species survey. All the Mexican spotted owl is breeding on anywhere in the pines from, I think, march 1st to August 30th, right or um there. So uh, or august 31st, um they we have submitted and scouted and scouting the terrain up there is incredibly unforgiving on some of our scouting missions. Um, I know that I uh kind of didn't really procrastinate, but we had a, an idea for a trail that uh for kind of mid to lower mountain that would parallel bug spring, which is that bugs junior.
Nick Giovannucci:So bug junior was the name of the trail and then it changed to bug senior. We had a different, longer one but ultimately that didn't pass.
Josh:I I was in the meeting with Matt last week on Wednesday. That didn't pan out.
Nick Giovannucci:We found an 80% solution and that solution was going to cost about a million dollars to build. It was going to be sick, yeah.
Josh:You spend a million dollars on a trill. It better be sick it better have a chairlift I think there was a.
Nick Giovannucci:The feature that was made at the million dollars was the valley of broken dreams or lost dreams or something that you guys nicknamed it um, that is uh and the molino vista the molino, yeah, that too, um, but that really, based on our operating budget, is going to take a long time to build and we don't have that kind of money just sitting under the mattress ready to spend.
Nick Giovannucci:We decided or in June I decided to scout a trail off the control road off the backside of Mount lemon that uh doesn't really have a whole lot of traffic. And uh, there was a concept um that was provided to me from eric from outslope solutions, who is a contractor for the forest service, and he never, he didn't ground truth, that I ground truth did a few times and it was pretty painful, um, based on all the the thorn bushes. But, um, we have a great um solution that will be a flow trail with some, uh, small b lines as well as possibly some jumps on those b lines, and it will be directional and mountain bike optimized and um, and kind of probably where there's no hikers.
Nick Giovannucci:I mean no hikers it will be a great kind of um. I think aspen draw might be odd even next summer to de-conflict with the hikers because that trail is um.
Josh:I don't know if we want to give a big explanation on that, but yeah, so so I mean like so I sat in the meeting, right and, and so they talked about some of the trails that we all ride. You know, 1918 secret. They talked about uh, what else? Bigelow. They talked about adopting all those trails, doing some improvements to them. I think 1980 they're gonna move up the the wash a bit secret.
Josh:They're gonna blow out some of the some of the turns to make it more like you, you know user-friendly I, although I think you can still do the jumps or whatever over the grade reversals yeah. Yeah, Great reversals, and then uh. I think they had two flow trails they mentioned.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, so um secret is going to be adopted. Uh, so that's cool. Um, it's a half mile of, uh wildcat trail. That's been around for I don't even know how long.
Josh:Yeah, since I've been here, yeah, yeah.
Matt Hrabko:It's heavily used, well-known, everyone knows about it, not so secret.
Josh:Super secret. Do people know about super secret?
Matt Hrabko:Everyone knows about super secret.
Josh:There's no secrets about 11, at least not that I know of, yeah, but but I can tell that Nick knows some but there's another trail that we scouted out just above that, so it's a little bit longer trail.
Matt Hrabko:It's about a mile and a half and it follows a fire line which, if you know the topography, the front side of Mount Lemmon or the south side, is a pretty relatively mellow grade that just goes down into tucson and the backside is fairly cliffy. So, um, right beyond the ridge line there, uh, there's a, you know, 500 foot cliff or whatever it's. It's solid. But, um, on top of that ridge line, uh, there's a great fire line that they made, um, not this last bighorn fire, but the previous fire, um, and it was great.
Josh:It's this great like, uh, open area with trees and dirt which is a real anomaly around here, which is anomaly in the desert yep, um, and so that's the uh, the first uh bike optimized directional trail that we were um, scanning, uh, scouting and planning out so, ultimately, in this whole, like like phase two, like some of the trails, that some of the social trails will be adopted and be, you know, formally, like, like you know, within the trail system maintained, and all that kind of stuff, and then there's about, I think I I saw like somewhere between five and six additional miles of, like mountain bike specific, two, two different trails, but, but you know, mountains, mountain bike specific yeah, so the only two mountain bike specific or optimized trails they can't actually have, like yeah mountain bike optimized trails gotcha uh, because once again government yeah, um, but yeah and there's different trail advocacy groups all working with this right.
Matt Hrabko:It's not just mountain bike support, it's equestrian, it's hikers it's everybody, yeah, and we even have casa, which is the local um you know rock climbing group as well, out there doing their part, but actually the mountain biking uh sector was the most outspoken during the comment period in the 2020s, yeah so that's pretty cool.
Matt Hrabko:So we kind of it's pretty cool to see the whole community kind of rally together and, um, you know, push for that voice, which was definitely heard, uh, so that's super cool and, um, you know, we do a lot of work out there. We maintain, you know, a lot of the multi-use trails that everyone uses it.
Dane:It blows my mind how much you guys do that. It's like it has nothing to do with writing, like you have to learn about endangered species, you have to learn about archeological issues, you have to deal with other user groups, and so you guys are are constantly in touch with the forest service. So how is that? I mean, we keep saying government, but it's the forest service that you're dealing with mostly.
Josh:So in there, and so you have to and you guys have been really successful. Yeah Right, like. So, like what is your the amount of work, the amount of work? So, like, tell us, like what's it like to work with the Forest Service? And like, what are the what's the secret sauce? For, like you know, people all over the United States who are listening to you guys been successful.
Dane:Well, and I actually aside from the success, but if you were gonna tell somebody in another place that's gonna start doing what you're doing, is there any shortcuts or like pitfalls that you would tell them to stay away from or that they should absolutely do, or, uh, you know what? What are some pointers to them that you feel like you really learned?
Nick Giovannucci:so I mean do you want me to take this matt Matt? I mean, that's a big ass.
Josh:I told you all these are big questions, guys.
Matt Hrabko:I just got the deer in the headlights, I mean, yeah, no, you guys have blown us away with your success?
Josh:That's where these questions are coming from. You guys have been super successful, like it's happen, yeah, so we're definitely standing on the shoulders of legends here.
Matt Hrabko:You know there's a lot of people that came before us. You know, tara and Art Alcantara and Bernie Akins were the originators of Torca and they, you know, saw a need for trail advocacy on the mountain because there really wasn't anybody that was actually doing anything on Mount Lemmon. There's a lot of stuff in tucson in general. Sdmb was doing great um but um, yeah, they started this whole advocacy advocacy group and back when I started they had this idea to um, go to the forest service with this. You know trails plan. You know of plan of if we had infinite money, what trails would we want to put on?
Josh:Mount Lemmon. So did TORCA develop the trails plan initially and take it as a proposal to the Forest Service.
Matt Hrabko:I don't want to say that in so many words, but it seems that way We've been pushing for a long time.
Dane:We've definitely been pushing and trying to get the Forest Service to actually pay attention, Because I've talked to some forest people and it seems like they don't actually want us up there. That's not fair to them.
Josh:There's a lot of them that are great.
Dane:It's totally not fair to them, but in general their edict is to try and protect the forest and to take care of it.
Josh:I don't think that's their edict. To try and protect the forest and to take care of it? I don't think that's their edict, do you guys think?
Nick Giovannucci:that's their edict. What's what's what's what's? That's what I've heard. Depends who you're talking to. I mean, we have we talked to um the recreation staff officer most frequently um of the Santa Catalina district, because there are five districts within Coronado. In coronado, um, this is by far the most the busiest one because it's closest to tucson right we are one of, I think, 30 different partner groups, which is that's a way that's a huge amount of people and, yeah, than any other district, um of any other forest that I've heard.
Nick Giovannucci:So it's all kind of we want to have our voices heard but we can't, um, can't trample everyone else, because everyone provides their own work, but we do volunteer a lot and maintain a lot of the trails. They are and they're not just mountain bike trails, like I said earlier, they're multi-use, so our work also benefits other user groups yeah and the forest service likes that and they see that yeah and they know that, like I said, the lemon drop is literally only one way down and everything is an out and back more or less.
Nick Giovannucci:There are no real like loops and they need more trails to kind of disperse people, because tucson, or mount lemon, is a sky island.
Josh:Everyone in tucson loves to go up there in the summertime so maybe, uh, just explain the sky island, since you use that vernacular, maybe explain that to our international listeners. Like what, like arizona? Like what is the concept of a sky island?
Nick Giovannucci:so sky island.
Josh:I mean, this is not like a formal definition just Just what's Nick's opinion of what a skydiver is so.
Nick Giovannucci:I mean you get, it's a 9,000-foot mountain Like in our backyard. You get pretty much every ecosystem from Mexico to Canada in an hour drive up there. And at the top is, in the summertime, tucson's a hundred 110 degrees in July. You're up there and it's 85 and um it's a. It's a great way to escape the heat, but there's also a limited amount of space up there that um people can recreate.
Josh:So we have these like so. If you're driving through Arizona, it's pretty much like flat desert everywhere.
Dane:No-transcript one yeah, any any of these mountains around here that have pine trees on the top.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, yeah so what it is is an ecosystem at the top of the mountain that's completely separate from a similar ecosystem you know in another mountain. So if you think of like the desert being like, you know an ocean, so to speak, and we have these little islands of different ecosystems on top of these, yeah it's a super cool resource that we have and it's like totally different.
Josh:If you're down on the floor in tucson, it's like you said it's 110 degrees, 105 degrees. You go up, it's 75 or 80 degrees up on top of the mountain, maybe a little warmer than that yeah, I mean, the southernmost ski resort in the United States is at the top of Mount lemon. Yeah, Did you? Did everyone know that we have a ski resort in Tucson Arizona the most, I think, the most Southern resort?
Nick Giovannucci:in the United States.
Dane:Yeah, did I just repeat what he just said Totally. I guess I've had enough whiskey, stole my thunder Nice.
Josh:Got that buzz going like reinforcing your thunder. Okay, I am the reinforcement, you're the lightning to my thunder if I had a dollar accentuating, if I had a dollar for every time someone told me that that's awesome but yeah, I've uh ridden more times in the snow in southern arizona than I have anywhere else that's crazy yeah, I never thought that I'd.
Matt Hrabko:You know, move to practically mexico and, you know, be riding in the snow and not, like you know, just a little bit of snow, but, like you know, be riding in the snow and not, like you know, just a little bit of snow, but, like you know, hub deep.
Dane:You just said that and, like my, my brain just blew up because I I totally agree with you. I think that's exactly right. I'm not kidding, like I've done a CDO in the snow, where you do half of it in the snow and and I don't think I've ridden in the snow anywhere else- I made snow angels at the top of. Cdo one time yeah.
Matt Hrabko:And I mind you, it's 106 degrees out today.
Dane:Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.
Josh:There's no snow on the mountain today.
Dane:No For the record.
Josh:Yeah, yeah, all right, um, so, like, we've got this thing about every. So if we don't maintain the trails, if we don't contribute to advocacy, there won't be trails. And as a new kind of like zealot for trail advocacy, that's me. I've been a mountain biker for way longer than both you guys. I've been riding bikes for 25 years and Dane's been riding bikes for 50 years 75.
Dane:I actually invented the bicycle.
Josh:But I never really. I mean, besides, like the social trail work I did, I've never really done any real trail advocacy and I've realized that like that's a bad thing. And so here's my question Do you agree that all mountain bikers should contribute to trail advocacy and maintenance efforts, and how do they get involved? And to those in the Tucson area, how can they help with TORCA?
Matt Hrabko:Uh, 100%. Um, yeah, I think every mountain biker owes it to their local advocacy group or trail maintenance group, to, you know, just contribute a little bit. You know, any little bit counts um, whether that's being a member or going to volunteer trail days or um, or going to their, you know, pint nights or movie premieres or whatever it is you know, just donating cash right. If you can't, if you don't have the time we'll take your money.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, if you're a member, you know that's $30 for a whole year, right, at least for a Torca, and you know, gives you um, you um maybe some credit, some bike shops, um, it also gives you a nice little you know pat on the back to make you feel good about yourself, um, but yeah, we like money too, just like anybody else, and those I mean. We're like 100 501 c3 non-profit volunteer group. So, um, all of the money from um members and anything that we raise goes right into tools, fuel for the trucks and the weed whackers, and it's not going into our pockets or going into our bikes or anything like that. It's going straight back to the trail.
Josh:You guys don't have any paid members of your organization. Not at all.
Nick Giovannucci:Paid employees. You mean, yeah, correct, that is correct. Yeah, with that one subcontractor, we're working something out where they'd get possibly a percentage of whatever fundraising they bring in but that's still a work in progress.
Nick Giovannucci:I think that's a good deal, though you bring in money, you get a percentage of it. If he brings in nothing, he doesn't get anything. That's like incentive based. Oh, totally yeah, I love it. Um, I'd like to tack on one thing to to what matt said. Um, I think I know the founding members of this organization have um socialized and the one day pledge, which is every mountain biker, or every mountain biker in Tucson, should give one day um, one trail day a year is kind of like the bare minimum.
Nick Giovannucci:Just one day Um that that that is the bare minimum and that would go a long way, based on how many people Jesus Christ people.
Josh:If you can't give one day, what the hell are you doing?
Dane:Well, I, I, we just came back from sunrise and I was I think I maybe told you this I, I went through this uh project trail called project, and on that trail is a fallen log that we built up. Uh, and I was there, I was the, I was volunteering and I built that jump over the log.
Josh:Yeah.
Dane:It's still there today and I did that easily 10 years ago easily, and, uh, I still take great pride in that.
Josh:Yeah, there's something rewarding, like I was telling these guys, I got like this massive like infection or whatever you call it, from reaction from poison Ivy doing the done at Mount Graham and I'm, I'm super stoked to go ride Arcadia and ride the little stupid hundred, stupid hundred, you know, a hundred yard like or a hundred meter um section that we worked that day and like take, I'm sure it'll be over by the time we get back there, but like take pride in, like the way it looks today versus the way it looked when we started, and I'll feel good about that. And every single mountain biker you know every single one of the dozens of mountain bikers that go through that section we'll enjoy that a little bit more because the work that I did.
Dane:Yeah, we talked about that with Dave Schlegel and and that's one of the probably the biggest gratifications you can get when you volunteer is to to be able to ride that trail and go. Yeah, I kind of helped with that berm or I helped with that, you know, that armoring of that corner or that drop or something, or you help brush that stuff out or you gave money or you know, or or?
Josh:whatever, whatever, whatever it is that you volunteer, so. So the question you guys didn't answer, uh, was specific to Torca, like for our local listeners, like how can they help out with Torca?
Nick Giovannucci:I mean, you want me to take this.
Matt Hrabko:I mean the best way um is, you know, either through funds or coming out and volunteering um right now. Now, volunteering, getting people out on the trail, is probably what we need most. A lot of what we have around here is even though we're in a desert, the plants grow really quickly. During the monsoon season, for sure, right yeah and then also in the springtime, in the falltime, pretty much any time that there's not either like 106 degrees out or it's not under snow, and so just everything grows back super quickly as soon as water hits it.
Matt Hrabko:Um and um, you know, brushing back, um, you know the plants is, you know, an ongoing battle. Um, it's something that just always happens. It's a necessity around here.
Dane:I think you can get one of those like helicopters, that kind of hangs the things and we just fly down the trail. So that's the second that you attach to your bike. And just, oh, I saw one of those. So if we had the budget, yeah, right, there you go so you guys use some terms that our listeners might know.
Josh:So there's kind of like brushwork and treadwork, so can you kind of help us explain the difference between the two?
Matt Hrabko:yeah, so brushwork. Brushwork is basically brushing back, or, you know, cutting back the things on the side of the trail that are growing into it, and so we like to do what we call a five-year trim, and the idea is that we want to be able to brush it back enough so we don't come back here in the next five years. And so usually that's about, you know, four feet off the trail. Yeah, the trail corridor um, for any trail um, is about three feet on either side of uh, six feet total.
Josh:So if you like, you know, if you're a tall dude, you put your arms out. That's basically your, your wingspan.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, if we get your standard, you know, shovel or McLeod or something like that stick it out to the side of the trail and that's about how far uh, you want it to be brushed back um granted, you know there's a lot of spots, uh, where there's rocks, and you know cliffs and you can't brush back, so you do what you can do, um, and yeah, that's the idea, so that's brushing tread.
Matt Hrabko:work is uh, when you're uh reinforcing or maintaining the actual tread of the trail, so actually the part that you're riding on Around. Here we get a lot of water coming down off the mountain at one time. It's not like in the Pacific Northwest, where it's just constantly raining or drizzling or cloudy.
Matt Hrabko:We're talking about an hour and you get a torrential rain and then it gets sunny again, and so it's a massive amount of water in a very short amount of time and which washes away a lot of the actual you know little tiny rocks which make up the the trail, and so what we like to do is we like to go in and take the larger rocks, put them in the trail, bury them, and so it actually maintains it and keeps it in the same place.
Matt Hrabko:And there's also a handful of trails I'd say even less than that that get heavily used Bug Springs, prison Camp, the Arizona Trail. In certain sections they get used by pretty much like 90% of the mountain bikers here in Tucson, and that's a couple thousand people, couple thousand people, and you're doing a couple of runs a day, or you know. So that's, it's a lot of use. Yeah, it's a lot of multipliers there, um, and so, yeah, a lot of use there. Fortunately, these rocks do a pretty good job at, uh, you know, reinforcing those trails. Um, we just need to go through and do that to pretty much all of them.
Dane:So I got a question when you guys are presenting plans and stuff, how much latitude do you have to do features and things like that? Like, does the forest service like?
Josh:what is the feature?
Dane:Like a, you know, maybe take it over a rock and have a little drop, or, you know, have an obstacle. That requires a little more skill, not just make it a like a kind of a highway you know, and like so is there.
Josh:So that fun shit on the trail.
Dane:Yeah, like I mean, you know so. I take a lot of people on trips and I take a lot of beginners and I'm uh, you know I have to be aware of what they're capable of, because I have a bad idea of what I'm capable of he thinks he's like Josh, you can do this trail, no problem, and I go down it and I'm like shit, my pants halfway down. God damn it, Dean.
Dane:And so so I get it that you got to make the trail for everybody. But does the? Do they give you any kind of latitude to be like hey, you know you make it around this rock, but you can have a little you can, you can put a little kicker and then they somebody who wants to can go over the rock, you know. Do they let you do that, or do they really restrict you?
Matt Hrabko:So that actually kind of goes back to your question a couple questions ago about talking to different people in different areas about what they can do. Every Forest Service district is kind of be holding to who's in charge, okay, um so if you go to depends on the person in that role at that time like their perspective is.
Matt Hrabko:So if you go to, you know I've been to Jackson hole and there's some massive doubles on forest service land, um, you know, if you go to the Pacific Northwest, you know it's a similar, you know thing a lot for listeners that don't know, like, what's um, what's a double?
Josh:what do you mean by that?
Matt Hrabko:oh, a double is a um, it's a grade reversal to speak in code reversal it's it's a sweet jump.
Dane:Yeah, it's a jump and it does double usually mean that there's a gap yeah, so.
Matt Hrabko:So a double means that there's a lip and then a landing, so a jump and a landing with a gap in between. Yeah.
Dane:And then a table would be the same jump, just with filled in Correct.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, okay, yeah.
Dane:Which I can do.
Matt Hrabko:But doubles, I can't. You can, yes, you can.
Dane:I can if I close my eyes.
Dane:Just imagine that's so. That's what I have to do sometimes. Yeah, we were talking about Noble Canyon and San Diego and in Noble, you know, you ride through. As you're getting into Noble, you're going through the forest and as you're riding the trail it snakes around all these obstacles and as it snakes around a stump there's a little rock that goes up the stump and then the log, and then they've cut the top of the log and serrated it so that you can have traction and so you can go around it as a beginner, but then you can also do a log ride and that's the forest land. So somebody there was like, hey, that's okay, and I feel like I'm just like is it so? It's really dependent on the person that you're talking about whether or not they'll even allow for something like that, yeah, and there's also a 300-page document about trail features that you can have Can you get that on audiobook If you want to go to sleep really quickly.
Matt Hrabko:Definitely not allowed. Wood bridges are not allowed.
Dane:Wood bridges are not allowed On forest service land Really On this forest. So is that document specific to this area?
Matt Hrabko:Well then there's also different environmental effects that you know. I don't know how you guys do this.
Dane:It's amazing. You guys are pretty great, so patient and amazing. So to also so there's also a.
Matt Hrabko:You know, there's things that you can do, like in slope corners, um, and that's um like berms yeah, exactly, yeah.
Josh:Yeah, your words, not mine In slope corners, yep.
Matt Hrabko:Great reversals are. You know where the trail goes down and then up suddenly?
Nick Giovannucci:Yeah.
Josh:You know, um, or vice versa, yeah, so that all those things that make it fun to ride a mountain bike, yeah, and so you've got to really just placate to whoever's in charge and what, what their idea of mountain biking needs to be Right.
Matt Hrabko:And then also the idea of the trail too. Yeah, like bug senior, when we were scouting that out, we were, you know, scouting out a black diamond or you know a dark blue trail, yeah, and we are, you know, looking at features that could make it that way. Yeah, and that was super cool for a service. Yeah, um, they were totally behind that. Um, we just ran into some obstacles that were just unrideable for a considerable amount of money.
Dane:Yeah.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, um, and so, like some of the new trails that we're going to be um, working on on phase two, um, the fire line trail, and then, uh, crystal springs trail or silver springs trail, um, you know, those gonna be bike optimized, with bike optimized features on them yeah um, and they're also designed, you know, for everyone to ride um. So there are going to be some go-arounds and there's hopefully going to be some pretty sick features there yeah, we did um sunrise and they have a beginner like green trail called uh yage which is not a fucking beginner trail, it's a total, just for the record, like I don't know.
Josh:It is not, it is a blue.
Dane:It is a blue trail at every other bike park I've been to it is. It's awesome but it's not a green trail but they did uh just redo it and they put you know, little shout out to the tanto gravity riders yeah, like chris and james, they're awesome.
Dane:um, so they put little kickers into the trail so you can go around and they're on the side of the trail and sometimes you don't even. I don't even know if they were meant to be there, but I just made them kickers. But they put some on flags you know, and so they actually built some of them. Some of them, you kind of just hit a little stump and catch some air.
Josh:But it was cool because then my nine-year-old is riding the same trail and he doesn't hit those you know, and he's having a great time. So this is the same kid that almost went down a cliff.
Dane:He did almost die.
Josh:Yeah, he like yeah he ended up in down the hill. He had one one arm around the tree one arm around another tree with or one leg around the other tree, his one other leg holding his bike holding his bike a cliff, but is the bike?
Matt Hrabko:okay, the bike is fine.
Josh:It was a pivot switchblade, so custom so custom, yeah, custom.
Dane:AF, but anyway. So yeah. So like you guys are working with the Forest Service constantly, would you say that that's probably the biggest thing that you do? I mean, it sounds like that's the biggest thing you guys do is coordinate with them and try and get them to let you do more. Does that make sense?
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, exactly, that's the advocacy part of the whole TORCA so the A at the end.
Matt Hrabko:We're trying to get more trails and more access to trails that's for all users also, not just the super shreddy, bro, dudes or girls, bro, people, bro, people there we go, but also everyone. And so that's why we wanted to get some more user-friendly trails like Upper in the Mountain, because right now if you are in Tucson and you're in the summertime and you want to go ride, you know that's not like 6am or you know 4am, I mean it's 6am, it's already 80, 90 degrees, but yeah we have eight months of awesome, four months of awful.
Josh:Let's not like cloud our listeners with the four months of awful. We're at the tail end of it right now.
Dane:We're talking about Mount Lemmon and Sky Island. We have, you know, 365 days of awesome. We really do. We have that opportunity, so that's awesome.
Matt Hrabko:So now we're trying to get some awesome or mellow trails or user-friendly trails higher up on the mountain so you can ride in the summertime and not have to send it or go down some nasty Rocky cliffs.
Dane:Yeah, cause Mount lemon is a pretty vertical mountain.
Josh:There's not a lot for all of us Intermediate riders, myself included. I'd like to thank you for that, but then it's also, you know, a balancing act.
Matt Hrabko:You know cause there are a lot of cool shreddy people here in Tucson and that's really what Tucson is known for is the hard technical Um, and you can ride that, you know, in the winter time, yeah.
Josh:Well, that's what the Tucson Mount lemon riders are known for. We have hundreds and hundreds of miles of non-technical shit in Tucson, yeah.
Nick Giovannucci:Yeah, it's amazing.
Josh:I know that cause I've been riding it for 25 years.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, so trying to you know work with, uh, people who do want, you know, those hardcore trails, and with people who do want those hardcore trails and those people who do want the more green or light blue trails. It's a fun balancing act and people get angry. And I like to say if you don't like something or if you have something to say, come out to a trail day or come to a board meeting. All of our board meetings are open to everyone. They're on our website. We advertise them.
Josh:T-O-R-C-A dot org.
Matt Hrabko:Correct. Yeah, and we'd love to hear different people's points of views, because right now, like Nick said, there's only five of us and we're trying to keep this thing together. Yeah, and we got some good headway, we got some good opportunities in front of us, but we just need more people and more voices. Yeah, yeah.
Josh:All right, guys. So I've been. So you know we have a podcast here and you know I'm an avid podcast listener. That's what I do like in my spare time or whatever, and I've been listening to the Trail Effect podcast. It's put out by Josh Bloom. Matt's shaking his head If you guys haven't listened to it, and to our listeners if you haven't listened to it. It's a great podcast and we're all super stoked about New Trail. We're all super stoked about New Trail. But recently Josh has been focusing the other Josh like Josh Bloom, I'm glad you clarified.
Dane:Thank you for clarifying Because I was confused. Yeah, you were confused. I'm glad you clarified. Thank you for clarifying Because I was confused.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah you were confused.
Josh:I wasn't talking about myself in the first person, but Josh has been talking a lot about the value of maintaining what you have, so I'd love to get maybe we can start with Nick, I'd love to get your perspectives on what's the value, because you guys do a lot of work, not just on creating new trails, but maintaining what we have. What's the value, and why should we all be just as interested in maintaining what we have versus creating something new?
Nick Giovannucci:I feel like maintaining what we have has been kind of what we've been doing for as long as I've really been in Torca. We have definitely had a really big push for scouting that for phase two um over the last year or so um to get new trails. But the current trails, like Matt said earlier, they some of the popular ones get thousands of users in a given month depending on the season. And, like Dane, you said that really tucson doesn't have an off season for riding. No, it's just kind of where you ride and what time you ride what the weather's like when you ride.
Nick Giovannucci:So um, but maintaining what we have because, uh, because of all those users and the rainfall that Matt mentioned, there can be quite a bit of erosion, and what I like to say erosion is not a trail feature. A lot of people on Mount Lemmon like to think that erosion eroded trails.
Matt Hrabko:You're neutering the trail.
Josh:Yeah that's so tech sanitizing yeah and I'm just like.
Nick Giovannucci:We're here to make it sustainable. It's, it's in our mission statement yeah, um, we need to maintain them so that we still um, so that they're still rideable and that they don't um, they don't go away and they still maintain the same character. A lot of people don't realize that trails are basically living organisms. There are a lot of effects of not only people, but weather effects of wind, rain, et cetera, that change the way they are and trails from. I haven't been riding here for only 10 years. I know, josh, you've been riding here for a lot longer, but trails, year after year season or riding season after different part of riding season do look different.
Nick Giovannucci:And we need to maintain and make sure that they are still rideable in the spirit that they should be um, so that everyone can enjoy them yeah, that's great.
Dane:I'm constantly amazed on how much you guys do and have to deal with, you know, like, aside from all of that trying to get organized, trying to deal with the forest service and and and then all the other user groups, then trying to maintain trails, while you're trying to have this forward looking idea of building trails and creating more and then keeping an open mind about user groups and so, like, for instance, matt bringing up you know, you know we need some green trails up there, which he's absolutely right.
Dane:It's very difficult to ride Mount lemon for a beginner and, uh, and I, as I have my kids, they're opening my eyes because I, I do ride a lot of trail and I am not scared about technical and I can do it and it doesn't seem like that big a deal. But then I take my kids and I realized my, my son's walking down like a one foot route, route, route, you know. And I realized, man, you know, people need to be able to get into the sport and they need that uh, jumping off point, they, you can't just take them straight into both springs.
Dane:You know they need some.
Josh:They need some some yeah, I mean, I've spent 23 years riding cross country yeah and then my wife, who's like a downhill rider. She's like you know, stop being a wussy, let's go get up on the mountain. Then I partnered with dane, who's a downhill racer, and he's like josh, come on, we gotta get you.
Dane:I've never ridden bug springs yeah, oh, yeah, oh, we're gonna get you out there, yeah so, like I can handle black trails, can I handle bug springs. Oh, totally, yeah, totally yeah, I always tell people with bugs like whatever you don't want to do, just walk. Yeah, I'm cool with that and and like being your own in your own self.
Josh:But I'm going out next week to ride bugs I think it's like, I think it's bad that I have a podcast, a mountain bike podcast in tucson.
Nick Giovannucci:I've never written let's, let's do it at night, please like, bring it out I'm not gonna do it at night.
Matt Hrabko:Come on, let's do it at night. Jesus christ, that's the best time to do it at night. Come on, let's do it at night.
Josh:Jesus.
Dane:Christ, that's the best time to do it, it is. It's awesome at night.
Josh:You don't see all the exposure. Yeah, you guys can ask Tara. I hired her to train me on prison camp. She's like oh Jesus, well, you got the best of the best. The other, tara and Jason she's great. I mean, I learned a ton from those guys. You like shout out to the women in our, in our field, man, like we need to get a bigger voice and that's one of the things with this podcast that we're we're trying to do is give a bigger voice to the women, for sure, um, all right, so, um, um, I think the next question is yours, man.
Josh:Well, I'm going to skip down. Wait, wait, wait. I'm going to skip down, skip down.
Dane:So let's go away from the forest and the trails, yeah, and let's kind of learn about these guys a little bit more. What would you say from each of you, nick and Matt? What is your if you could pick your favorite trail just anywhere, not just in Tucson, like anywhere. Do you have a favorite trail anywhere? Do you have a favorite?
Nick Giovannucci:trail, like one that you think about, that you're like I gotta get back there, I do, okay, go, nick. I like windsor and santa fe a lot. Oh shit, we just rode that high five dude. We just rode that like two weeks ago. That trail is sick. That trail is so much fun that's exactly.
Josh:Thank you for taking me to that. Yeah, although the commuting shit sucked like driving up driving back up.
Nick Giovannucci:driving back up, we didn't take the bus. They can take six bikes, I think, and the ride back into town isn't too bad.
Dane:We had like ten people. That's the problem that we always run into the shuttle's not that bad. It's pay-to-play, in my opinion, on almost everything, unless you have a chairlift.
Josh:A shuttle is an easier pay to play than riding up the mountain, and you and I paid two hours of driving time to shuttle all those 10 people, although next time While they sat down at the bar and drank Next time.
Dane:I've decided next time I ride that trail, when we go back to get the cars, I'm taking another person to drive.
Josh:And I'm going to do the trail On the way down and beat the car down.
Dane:Yeah, you probably would beat the car, pretty sure we.
Josh:I just bought a seven pack belt. I just bought your my rack velocirax.
Matt Hrabko:Oh yeah, yeah, it'll be here, tomorrow.
Josh:Yeah, so you guys are gonna see lacy helping you guys. Shuttle up on mount lemon with the uh with the seven velocirax.
Dane:I don't like that they're not in bike shops.
Josh:I don't like I know this is here we go consumer direct.
Dane:Here comes the bike shop however, I am very all right so your fame, your your favorite trails.
Josh:Windsor, which we just rode like two weeks ago, and I echo that trail, was awesome. I don't know if it's my favorite trail, but I really, really enjoyed that trail there's a.
Nick Giovannucci:It's hard to choose one, but it's just the convenience of the free shuttle and just you can open. It's not too steep that you have to ride your brakes, you can just open it up. So for our listeners.
Josh:This is just outside of Santa Fe in New Mexico, and if you're going up to the Angel Fire Bike Park, which I contend is the best bike park in the United States, For now. For now.
Nick Giovannucci:I think Sunrise is going to whoop them at some point.
Josh:Sunrise is taking them on. We can talk about that. We have another podcast coming out about sunrise and what they're doing up there. But angel fire is amazing. But if you're on your way to angel fire like, that's a great place to stop and break up the ride.
Dane:I'm with you on. Windsor I forgot the name of that that a little restaurant, it's great.
Josh:Oh yeah, at the base there.
Dane:Tuskegee or Tuskegee.
Josh:Yeah, I don't know the village of Tuskegee. Yeah, whatever, At the base you can find it. Matt, what's your favorite trail?
Matt Hrabko:in the world. That's a tough one, you can give us a couple if you can. I was going to say, yeah, there's so many different trails with so many different characteristics. One of my favorite trails I'd say that I've always said is Braille Trail. Out in Santa Cruz, okay. Up in the SoCal Demonstration Forest Okay. It's beautiful, long, rooty, has some awesome cool little hits through the redwood trees duff, it's amazing.
Dane:So we're going there next summer. Yeah, definitely do that.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, that's one of the legal trails they have in Santa Cruz, which is pretty cool, but more so, I'd say, like the Bugs Prison Millie Lab. Yeah, I think that one's like Bug Springs Prison Camp.
Josh:Yes, so that's like the lower three mountains, the lower three trails we have here on our mountain.
Dane:What do we call that?
Josh:Because it's part of the lemon drop, we call it the meringue, we call it the bugs arosa bugs arosa.
Nick Giovannucci:Yeah, that's the millicross as my acronym.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, but it has so much variety. I mean you're starting off, like you know, on some granite slabs, you go into a pine forest, then you go back onto some like high desert, then you go down into the lower desert with the saguaros and the prickly pears and all the gila monsters and rattlesnakes and stuff my red racer.
Dane:We were listening to the animal episode and the red racer that was chasing or running next to me yeah, that was on millagrosa, really, so yeah yeah, but it's, I'd say, um, millagrosa is, uh, one of the hardest trails that we have on mount lemon.
Matt Hrabko:Um, and it's actually is one of the hardest trails that we have on Mount Lemmon and it's actually one of the success stories we have from this master's trail plan. It was a part of phase one to get adopted, so that one is actually a wildcat trail that is currently adopted by the Forest Service.
Dane:It's been there a long time, oh, forever. Well, I don't want to get back into the Forest Service stuff, because we really do want to know about you guys too. I mean, we loved hearing about Torca, but we want to know about you guys, so I'll skip my question, which was more trail stuff.
Josh:Yeah, more trail stuff, okay so a carryover for the trail discussion. So you talked about your favorite being Windsor. You said Braille Trail in in.
Dane:Santa Cruz in.
Josh:Santa Cruz and then the uh.
Matt Hrabko:Bugs Rosa.
Josh:So that's bug Springs prison camp and Mila Grossa in Tucson on the Santa Catalina is up on Mount lemon. What is the hardest trail you've ever ridden? Start with you, Nick. What's the hardest trail? Like the one that just kicked your ass and you're like, no, I'm not doing that again I mean possibly millie gross in the case.
Nick Giovannucci:I never wrote it. When I I my one friend I I kind of went to high school with, moved here and um, I was like yeah, let's try it, and uh, I did, took him down millie we kind of took each other down. We were I'd been down it, and that was actually the first time I ran into Torca. They were working on it in, I think late 2017. It looked at you guys like what the hell are?
Josh:you guys doing here.
Nick Giovannucci:And we tried to. Well, we can't pedal up the road, we're weak. I didn't even have a bike rack, I think.
Nick Giovannucci:So we had to take my friend he could fit two bikes in his to molino in his car and then at the end we had to pedal back up and that was so hard. Oh yeah, um, and we're going down and we're going down the the act portion and that that part right after the saddle is technically intermediate, but, um, it's very steep and there's a blood rock there with a nice red um nice blood that has been sacrificed there that's not my blood, that would have been on the, the waterfall in the aggressive but um that was years after.
Nick Giovannucci:But doing that trail was like what are we almost there? Are we on the hard part yet? And then we eventually did it and it was great, but it was a bunch of. It was a little bit of a hike with a bike, um kind of thing, but now, I mean, pretty much the whole thing is rideable after some practice and stuff.
Josh:Practice helps all right.
Matt Hrabko:So next is millie gross. So matt. What do you say? What's the?
Josh:hardest trail you've ever attempted to ride. Oh, I I don't know, have you ridden Portal? You guys ridden Portal? Haven't ridden Portal yet? Oh, yes, I have ridden Portal. That was awesome, and Mila Grossa is harder than Portal.
Nick Giovannucci:Okay, so I actually Can I give a second answer? Sure, yes, yes, yes. When I go to Sedona, when I go to Moab, I am an Energizer bunny. I'm never there long enough to get all my riding out, so I'm just like I'm going to ride three or four times a day.
Josh:Let's do this kind of thing.
Nick Giovannucci:And so last time I went to Moab with my wife, we brought two bikes each, a cross-country bike and enduro bike. We did the Navajo Rocks like a cross-country loop up there, like 10, 15 miles, and I brought my enduro bike in the car. Um, I told my wife, just draw me off, it's 100, 105 out or so in early september. I'm sure I'll run into people down on mag seven. Um, it'll be fine, I'm not taking the poison spider thing, I'm doing portal, it's gonna be great. Um, and I was like okay, cool, and I was like this shouldn't be that hard, I think it's not. Like it's not that much climbing and the whole the first section of of mag sevens is pretty easy. And then you get to the the gold bar climb up there and I was like oh, this sucks like I'm
Nick Giovannucci:dying right now like I'm already like it's super steep and it was very hot and the heat just radiating off the rocks. I mean, yeah, I've ridden in the arizona summer, but after doing another ride and there's nobody out there, there's one jeep. There's just like, oh wow, you're crazy what the hell are you doing out here?
Josh:what are you doing out here?
Nick Giovannucci:and I'm just like uh, am I at portal yet? Am I at portal yet? And I was like okay, here's okay, I'm finally at portal. It's like, okay, I'm taking this real easy and all the get off your bike parts. I obviously got off my bike, but and then you kind of come around the corner and hit that drop and go into the real techie stuff I was like, oh, I am like, so my legs are like dying, my arms are dying, I need to be real careful.
Nick Giovannucci:I went, I I definitely like walked some parts and if I was a little bit more rested I could have ridden it, but I was just like, oh, I'm so, I'm just so exhausted, and then I was like calorie deficit, right there and just like pounded like a two foot longs at like Subway after and I was like I needed that. I burned all those. So you're saying million portal, yeah, portal. I was like, oh, this is super exposed and like very crazy.
Dane:So I was in the shop today and one of the guys that went with me to Moab on our trip last guy who I haven't asked, I told him I said, hey, I've asked everybody who went on that ride that road portal with us. And during the ride afterwards, when we're at the bottom, a guy had like a bucket full of ice cold washcloths yeah.
Dane:And we put them all on ourselves and stuff. At that point nobody, everybody was mad at me, me and they're like we're never coming back here again. And uh, and I've I've said this story and I've asked a few since then and he was the last one today. Every, he was the only one who was like I've done it, I don't need to do it again is what he said Uh, that was Bert, and shout out to out to burt. But uh, everybody else was like yeah, I'll do it.
Josh:So like I want to do it, they want to ride it again after a certain amount of time. I think I just forgot how three it's type three fun, yeah, right, like you have fun, you don't have fun, then yeah, but it's cool to tell the stories afterwards yeah, big time so matt, what? What's your? What's the hardest drill you ever attempted to ride?
Matt Hrabko:um, you, the only one that really comes to mind. I mean, I'm sure there's something back there where I was. You know, I've done it once and I don't need to do it again. Yeah, but the one that comes to mind is Incinerator, up here on Mount Lemmon. Oh yeah, it's not a long trail, but I like to think of it more of like a puzzle than a trail, but I like to think of it more of like a puzzle than a trail, cause there's some, there's some cool rock features going down and going up that you really just need to like figure it out.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, you know there's no obvious way, cause a lot of it is just solid granite and there's. You know, you kind of see a trail marker in the future but it's like, well, how do I get from here to there? Oh, up this thing, fuck. And so it's still one that, like you know, I can clean it some days and then, like some days, it'll just come back and bite you.
Josh:I either see a souvenir, I have my arm, you guys have ridden in a lot of places in the world right.
Matt Hrabko:I mean, I know Nick you just got back from from from alaska.
Josh:I did not ride there you guys have ridden in a lot of places in the world and it's amazing that the hardest trail like you guys both picked a trail on mount lemon here in tucson as the hardest trail you've ever ridden. Yeah, that's that should say something. That definitely should say something. What are?
Nick Giovannucci:you guys riding these days nick.
Josh:What are Like? What's your stable? Look like so.
Nick Giovannucci:I currently have four bikes. Technically, I'm trying to sell one. My newest bike is an Orbea Oiz, my cross-country sub-22-pound race bike that I hope to podium at Tour of the White Mountains. I did it last year for first time, racing it only in the 35. Good luck, man. Hopefully I can do it in the 50. That's awesome that hike a bike is kind of a pain in the ass.
Josh:Yeah, shout out to Epic Rides man. They put on a great event, Todd's great.
Nick Giovannucci:Yeah, so that's my newest bike. I also have a Rocky mountain altitude. Was able to go to the Rocky mountain headquarters when I was in Vancouver up there and kind of impromptu uh private tour, um of their, of their all their fatigue testing, um back room of uh testing stuff road trip.
Josh:It was super cool.
Nick Giovannucci:Um, and then I have. What I wrote here today is, uh, a santa cruz skitch, which is my e-commuter that I try to ride to work every now and then it is yeah, and for the record, like like, nick rode here today, I did.
Josh:Yes, matt drove a big-ass van, but nick rode 10 miles each way.
Nick Giovannucci:I had the assist on but, it's not too bad. Um, and then the, my old cross-country bike is still kind of in, uh, the selling stable for it's a yeti sp100 that, uh, I've, I've raced and rode for. I bought it right at the start of covid. So, um, it's been been around for four years and I've put, I think, 5 000 miles on it and it's time to go to a better home. Still in great shape and has a custom wrap on it that nick's trying to sell his bike on the podcast contact nick I'll put a link to his facebook marketplace in the in the show notes here, if he's.
Josh:If he wants, I've got a altitude power play uh, that's my e-bike, and uh that's. That's the only e-bike I have, and, uh, it's a great bike, do you? Do you have a, a coil or a air spring on the back?
Nick Giovannucci:uh, for the altitude. Yeah, I started with a dpx2 and uh, could not handle it, so I have a dhx2. So yeah, definitely coil on it.
Josh:Yeah, I've switched to a coil as well. Oh, it is DVO. Definitely Matt. What about?
Matt Hrabko:you. What do you ride? These days? My main steed is a Rocky Mountain Altitude as well. Nice, look at that, dude. Great minds.
Josh:Great minds, you get an altitude too right.
Dane:Oh, it's my favorite bike yeah.
Matt Hrabko:It's an of an altitude in this room right now. That's crazy. Yeah, um, I have a you know, 38 170 up front and a coil in the rear. Yeah, dhx2. Um, yeah, carbon hoops. Yeah, she's not light, but she takes a beating and she pedals well yeah and I've had that rig for three years now right on, and it's been to are you selling that one?
Josh:I saw that you were selling something.
Matt Hrabko:I am selling it. Okay, you know the trails around here in Tucson, you know. I think you got the gist already that they're a little tough.
Dane:Yeah.
Matt Hrabko:And so I'm trying to pass it on to the next owner before it turns into dust, but it's still you know. It looks like it's in good shape, really good shape, like um, but yeah.
Josh:What are you going to get next, then? If you're going to, sell another Rocky mountain.
Matt Hrabko:I was thinking. A shorter travel Cause a lot of the trails that I ride around here.
Dane:The new instinct the new instinct, yeah, instinct, bc, that's. That's the money bunny.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, that's the money, bunny. Yeah, that's next in the stable. But we'll see what the funds.
Dane:So let's see Mine's a 2020. What?
Matt Hrabko:year was yours 21.
Nick Giovannucci:21 and then Nick 21 as well, I think.
Dane:I got the oldest one. I'm actually thinking about painting mine. That's how much I love it and I'm going to probably keep it. And for a bike guy who, is self-.
Josh:You want to get it painted and you want to put shimano on the side no mountain cobb on the other side, I'll pay for your paint job don't make me do it and I'll pay for it done I don't think you know how much painting a bike costs you got to put shimano components on it as well I'll do that okay I'm not, I'm not scared Right now. I've got the Dude, dude. Let's shake hands. There we go. It's done, I see it.
Dane:You know, I have a group, an XTR group, at home.
Josh:That's fine, I do. I'm not scared. I'm okay with XTR.
Dane:I'm not.
Matt Hrabko:I'm a bicyclist, so I Mountain cog head badge. That would be pretty cool actually, let's do it.
Josh:Let's do it All right. Final question for you guys, because we've been talking for a while. Does it feel like we've been talking for a while?
Nick Giovannucci:Yeah, this has been too long, it's been like four hours.
Dane:Nick's like this is awful.
Josh:This is awful. Get us out of here.
Dane:Nick's asleep.
Josh:I don't know if he noticed that, like we said, we're Switzerland. Um, we feel like, uh, as, as a trail advocacy, you know, as the groups of trail advocacies that were the the different, different trail advocacy groups that were like better together than we are apart, like we're stronger together than we are apart, like everyone, whether it's equestrian, whether it's climbersbers, whether it's hikers, um, or friends of the cantalena or whoever, and this applies kind of like everywhere in the country that we're all better together than we all apart. And so, like I'd be interested in your thoughts on like what we can do to help, like try to find more common ground and like work more collectively, more together on trail advocacy, for maintenance, for new trails, whatever, um versus like fighting with each other. What do you guys think about that?
Nick Giovannucci:no, the district, uh the the santa catalina district ranger definitely wants us to do that. He's told us um for the first time and, what I can remember, um, I think in february we had a joint trail day on prison camp with, uh the ata arizona trail association. Shout out to matt nelson, yeah, matt nelson, um, and all them up there, um, they, uh, it was great because we were able to share tools, share insights. Crew leaders get a lot of work done. They gave us free lunch what yeah?
Dane:Free lunch is always good, we usually just do snacks.
Matt Hrabko:There is no free lunch.
Nick Giovannucci:So that was awesome. We want to and with other groups. Like I said earlier, we want to and with other groups. Like I said earlier, the Catalina volunteer groups, or the Catalina district, has 30 volunteer groups. There is a new volunteer coordinator with the Forest Service who I am now also in regular contact with. I'm kind of talking to a few different people on the forest service, depending on what my, what I'm trying to accomplish, but I have asked for a contact list for all of the other user and volunteer groups so that I can get a hold of them and do not have to use the forest service as a middleman that's awesome it's just easier that way to invite them out to our stuff.
Nick Giovannucci:They can invite us to their stuff. But for other mountain bike groups or anyone, the more people, the better. We all have common interests. We all want more trails. I think there are very few, if there are any, mountain bikers who don't want new trails in there.
Josh:I don't know who you are, and we want our existing trails to be maintained in good shape. True.
Nick Giovannucci:But pooling manpower resources, pooling tool resources, more heads, different ways to look at things and sharing just insight of lessons learned on doing big projects, I think is really where we can get that.
Josh:So it sounds like you guys are doing it already, Like you're trying to like drive this like I'm doing what I can.
Nick Giovannucci:There's not a rule book for being president or a guide, but I'm trying to and what I've been working pretty hard at, or not super hard at.
Dane:but, like we've said, we have five people but I want to do things, but I also am working on delegating them and making sure everyone does a little bit and we spread the load Spread the load, no burnout, one thing that Josh has brought up before that I think a lot of groups miss out on, and I I'm sure you've thought about this, but I'll just say it anyway, because there may be other people out there want to do what you're doing, but you know putting it out there for what you need. So, like you talked about grant writing, you know, and like having a you know a voice to be able to say, hey, we are looking for somebody who has done this to help us, you know, and and asking for that expertise. Or, hey, you know, we have a website. Is there somebody, is there a rider who, instead of maybe doing a trail day, you could help me adjust the website? I can share this.
Josh:So, as a corporate strategist, I can't help but look at an organization and be like all right, dude, we, we got some work to do there's some things we can do. And one of the things I've been recommending is let's write out what are the skills that you need and expertise that you need to accomplish your mission, and let's go find a mountain biker. That's a lawyer.
Nick Giovannucci:Let's go find a mountain biker, that's an accountant.
Josh:Let's go find a mountain biker.
Josh:that's a graphic designer, let's go find a mountain biker that's got experience in grant writing, let's bring them all onto our board and like, instead of trying to go subcontracted, or like, fumble, like if I tried to create a fucking website, it's a mess, dude, right, like I don't know how to do that. But if I talked to my buddy, chris Bonzac, who's a mountain biker with with you know, right down the road, with Bonzac design, he can do it in his fucking sleep. Yeah, right, so I get him on, like he can do it in his sleep. And if I find a lawyer that can, like you know, do all the lawyery shit that we need to do, so it's like, build your, build your staff with you know, the skills that you need so that you're not fumbling through it. That's like from a as a, from a, you know, as a corporate strategist, I can't help, but like, provide that and that was kind of like the guy that's.
Josh:That's what I've been like. When I'm looking at sdmb and how they're running, I'm like, all right, do we need to like bring some different expertise into this?
Dane:organization I think a lot of volunteer-based organizations. Just sometimes they they don't, they don't have a template, you know and they're just trying to figure it out and and then unfortunately, somebody moves on. You know exactly then you got to deal with relearning, you know and stuff.
Matt Hrabko:So well, yeah, that all does sound really good, um, but one of the things that we have had in the past is we've had graphic designers, we've had web designers, we've had lawyers, we've had x, you know whatever people come in and they're oh yeah, I'll totally help you out.
Nick Giovannucci:And then when we ask them to do something, feel like oh, I'm busy, and then we never hear from them again.
Josh:Yeah, and then yeah, that's the one thing that we haven't. It's like committed to actually do it, I got you. It's easier said than done. Really it is. I mean. That's the I mean if anything I you got to take advantage of that.
Matt Hrabko:Yeah, it's weird that mountain bikers would rather go mountain biking than actually do lawyer work.
Josh:But if you don't, have the trails, there's nothing to fucking ride guys. You got to get involved.
Nick Giovannucci:Like you got to help out.
Josh:If you have a unique skill, if you have any unique skill that can help out your trail advocacy group Jesus Christ, get involved. Help them, please Like, please like. Wherever you are in the world and specifically in Tucson, help them.
Matt Hrabko:Fortunately, the forest service has been actually letting us, you know, talk to them, and they've been actually listening to us, and so they've been using some of their resources to do the things that we want them to do. That they're there for.
Matt Hrabko:So that's pretty cool and so, really, one of the things that we're really lacking in is just manpower at this point. Um, you know it's great to you know get people on the board. We do definitely need talent in all the different fields, um, but one of the um more immediate things is, you know, hands in the dirt, hands in the dirt, right on.
Josh:So at torcaorg, on your socials, you get your. I know you guys are on Instagram. I'm sure you're on Facebook, right. So on your socials, and we'll put all those links in the show notes. Um, get involved locally and if you're not in Tucson, get involved with your local advocacy group. Go out there. At a minimum, you should be donating at least one day a year. I think it should be one day a month. I really think it should be maybe two days a month, but one day you're at a minimum. If you're riding a mountain bike and you're not helping out in some way, you should feel guilty. This is what I think.
Dane:On the positive note. When you do, you're going to you're going to feel good about it.
Dane:You're going to feel great Like I personally have experienced that and I know it's. You know it's easy to say, hey, you owe it to the trails, but really, uh, the amount that you get back from doing it is so worth it. It's so gratifying. And so, for those people that don't do it because they don't think they have the skill, these guys are amazing. They'll show you what to do, um, they'll help you figure it out. They'll bring tools. You know, I mean, we carried a gate out. I just carried a gate out to 50 year and then my kids dug holes all day.
Matt Hrabko:And you know my kids now, every time they go over that gate, uh, they could say we did that, we helped make this, yeah, and that gate's gonna be there for yeah, pretty much ever yeah exactly, I think it was heavy. Yeah, it was really heavy.
Josh:All right guys we've been talking for a while. You got any final, you know thank. Thank you so much for coming out and spending some time with us. Do you got any final thoughts for our listeners?
Nick Giovannucci:I'd say get out, get involved. Yeah, you really don't know how much gratitude and accomplishment you'll feel until after you actually do it. I know that I do it regularly, but one of my biggest ones was kind of single-handedly getting that alternate to bug senior scouted and in the plan and finalized with less than a month before submission. So I usually don't like to procrastinate, but that felt great and I feel like it's a big win because it's another three-ish miles of easier flowy hopefully jumpy trail that we can get jumpy.
Matt Hrabko:What about you, matt? Oh man, yeah, just to uh piggy back on nick. You know, get, get out there and get involved. Um, do whatever you can for your local trail advocacy group. Um, it's a lot of work and you definitely have them to thank for everything that you have yeah, and it'll make you feel good like and it makes you buff too.
Dane:Totally yeah, super sexy yeah but wear sunscreen, long sleeves and photo shoes, yeah, so I mean, it's not.
Nick Giovannucci:We not only give you bean dip, fruit chips, beer.
Matt Hrabko:Vegan options available. Yeah, you get snacks.
Nick Giovannucci:You get snacks. And then we have gift cards, oh yeah, backpacks and other stuff for a certain number of days in a year that you guys can that trail workers can get, and a lot of people have already gotten them this year and we're only, oh, we're about three quarters of the way through
Dane:the year We've had a lot of good, whether you want to pay it forward and pay back for all the work that's being done and help out, or you do it for your own gratification, or you do it for a backpack or the snacks and whatever it takes, or shuttle apps with Homegrown hey listen.
Josh:If you're listening to this podcast and you don't know how to help in your local area, just shoot us an email mountaincoggmailcom. We will find the local advocacy group for you, wherever you're at in the world, and we will help get you connected and help you figure out how to contribute. You know, nick Matt dude, on behalf of like all the mountain bikers in Southeast Arizona, I want to thank you for like all the stuff you're doing. Like I have changed my riding style. I have started to ride more technical shit. I've started riding the mountain. I'm super stoked about that. I got big bikes now where I've had just cross country before. You guys have changed my life, made my, my relationship with my wife better, because she likes to ride that shit, and a lot of that is attributed to like the work that you guys have done. So like thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for the work that you've done and that you continue to do. Appreciate you guys have a great day. Thanks guys, thank you, thanks Nice.
