Mountain Cog
Mountain bike podcast that will make you laugh and learn. Featuring a wide range of passionate guests.
Mountain Cog
097 - Bike Shop Confessions: How MTB Suspension Experts Really Choose Components
In this unfiltered episode of The Mountain Cog Podcast (recorded during the snowy Sedona Mountain Bike Festival) hosts Josh and Dane are joined by special guests Mike "Babyfoot" Jones and Derrick Kampfer for a raw, technical dive into mountain bike suspension. The conversation takes unexpected turns from the hilarious origins of "nipple management" in bike maintenance to detailed comparisons between Fox, DVO, and RockShox fork technologies, with expert insights on how suspension choice impacts ride feel and performance on different trails.
The episode explores the technical aspects of mountain biking while highlighting the welcoming nature of the mountain bike community. Listeners will gain valuable insights about suspension tuning, the debate between flat pedals versus clipless systems, and custom frame protection options like Ground Keeper designs. The hosts and guests share personal riding experiences, technical advice, and lighthearted trail stories that showcase why mountain biking attracts riders of all ages and skill levels despite the significant investment required to participate.
Sedona MTB Festival - https://sedonamtbfestival.com/
Pedaling Innovations - https://pedalinginnovations.com/
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what, the what the hell are you doing?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:We're trying to record you.
Josh:You're watching your show. I thought something was wrong with the equipment.
Dane:Are you watching?
Josh:your shows.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I am watching my shows. My shows are on.
Dane:Sorry guys, Nana, can you mute your show?
Josh:Hey, tell us about nipple management.
Derrick Kampfer:So nipple management. So there's three basic categories of nipple management. Number one is avoidance, right. So what's the safest form of sex Abstinence, right. Okay, yeah yeah, just no shirt. So if you avoid materials altogether, then you're avoiding nipple management. So, avoidance being number one, it's very important.
Dane:The second one Son of a bitch. I thought you guys, oh no, this is good, this is good. Okay, I'm going to let this go, but I have to clarify.
Derrick Kampfer:after this, the second one is lubrication right oh my.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:God.
Derrick Kampfer:Things are moving, Things are moving right. So a little bit of ointment, a little bit of aloe vera something like that, maybe some Vaseline. Everything's working.
Dane:I thought you guys were serious.
Derrick Kampfer:I knew it was a good idea to have him come on with us, and the third one being material Nice soft shirt. Everything is going good.
Josh:Like this one right here.
Derrick Kampfer:Things are moving.
Josh:All right, I'll come back to why we're talking about nipple management, but it is Friday night.
Dane:Yep Friday Snowy Friday night on the.
Josh:MCP, and we are actually sitting around a table in Sedona, Arizona, all attending the Sedona Bike Fest, where Danny and I are out talking to different people in the industry to try to make more connections, learn more about the products that are coming out and riding the snow, apparently.
Dane:Yeah, man, it's crazy. You know this is the second Snow Dona Bike Fest, second annual, second annual. Yeah, snow apocalypse, snow Dona, snow Dona, snowdona Bike Fest. Second annual, second annual Snowpocalypse, snowdona, snowdona.
Josh:And we've got some special guests with us today also festival riders and attendees and avid mountain bikers. You guys want to introduce yourself, sure, I'm?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Mike Jones.
Dane:Mike Jones.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Mike Jones More popularly known as Sharon the Mountain Bike.
Dane:Yeah, sharon, well, sharon the Mountain Bike's dad, yeah, you're known as Sharon the Mountain Bike. Well, Sharon the Mountain.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Bike's dad. You're not actually Sharon. The Mountain Bike Dane likes to call me E-Mike.
Dane:Yes, you're the human E-Bike E -Mike the human E-Bike. He doesn't actually ride an. E-bike though I do not no, but he keeps up with everybody that does.
Josh:And Mr Nipple Manager.
Derrick Kampfer:Yep General Manager of Nipple Management.
Josh:I'm sorry, I got your title wrong yeah get it right.
Dane:You know he earned that.
Josh:He did.
Derrick Kampfer:Derek Camper, derek Camper.
Josh:Camper, camper Fur Jesus Christ Can you spell it out?
Dane:Do we have a whiteboard?
Josh:Is it C-A-M-P-H-E-R?
Derrick Kampfer:K-A-M-P-H-E-R, k-a-m-p-f-e-r. I totally fucked up Holy shit.
Dane:Just so everybody knows, this is a raw dog episode.
Josh:Usually. I promise Jesus Christ. I've had like three sips of whiskey. I was going to mention the alcohol. Just a little bit. We have to stay warm. It's freaking 30 degrees. I've had like three sips of whiskey. Well, I was going to mention the alcohol is involved Just a little bit.
Dane:Just a little bit. We have to stay warm.
Josh:It's freaking 30 degrees outside it is cold, it's cold.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:It feels like 20.
Josh:Typically we tell our guests hey, listen, I will let you guys listen to this episode ahead of time before we publish, and I'll cut out anything you don't want. But for Mike and Derek I said I'm not doing that.
Dane:No, this is so, we're raw dogging it. Yeah, this is a MA rated, MA Rated MA yeah.
Josh:So we've already sworn once, or I've already sworn once, but let's explain why. We started the podcast with nipple management. Maybe you can start tell us like about the concept.
Dane:We were at dinner and we're talking about what logo stuff we brought from the podcast to show off at the fest. And we brought our hats right and that's easy to see. And then I said, well, I brought my shirt, my nipple manager shirt, and of course everybody at the table is like what?
Josh:are you talking?
Dane:about. I knew what it was. And yeah, well, mike listens so he knows that at one point we had an episode where we were talking about, you know, basically truing wheels and spokes and nipples, and I mentioned the word nipple manager and then I got a kick out of it. So I actually made Josh and I shirts that say nipple manager on them and they have a picture of a bicycle nipple and we walk around with them and Josh won't wear his cause. He's embarrassed.
Josh:No, I'm like, listen, there's like a very small person, there's a very small percentage of the population that's going to look at this shirt. It's got a picture of a bicycle nipple out of context. Yeah, just just a little bicycle nipple, and then it says nipple manager. And I'm like walking through the mall with a shirt that looks like I got a rod and it's this nipple manager on it and it's like I will tell you in the nine to 12 year old.
Dane:You know, boy, small boy, demographic, it kills.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:They love it For the show. It's no, but we're working on it.
Josh:We've said this before 18 to 32 year old women are the most popular demographic. This is because we've never done video, yes Cause, 32-year-old women are the most popular demographic.
Dane:This is because we've never done video. Yes, because they can't see what we look like or the shirt we're wearing.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:No comment.
Dane:So, yeah, the nipple manager shirt. And then we got into I don't know how we got into nipple conversation and I brought up that I've had my armor. My downhill armor has damaged my nipples because it was fishnet and nobody understood that.
Josh:Yeah, so Dane's over here talking about his fishnet armor. I'm like what the F is fishnet armor when you say fishnet everybody gets a picture.
Dane:I know, but what do you call it? I guess mesh, what do you call it? Like it's, you know, anybody who's listened to this that has had a set of armor. You know like a, so so for people that maybe don't ride downhill or didn't buy this type of armor, but there's armor that's sewn into a fabric and and make it like a t-shirt, uh, and they sew the pads onto the t-shirt so they don't move.
Josh:So when you're wearing it, they don't move when you crash. So yeah, I saw that same get up at fascinations in Tucson. No, you crash. So yeah, I saw that same get up at fascinations in Tucson?
Dane:No, you didn't. I did. That was latex First of all, um, and you weren't supposed to tell people. Oh sorry, my bad, my bad, um, but but this, um, this armor that I would wear would be a heavy netting that was open. And then, because we ride in Arizona, it was really hot and I'm like I need it's too hot, so I'm not going to wear a shirt underneath, I'm just going to wear the armor, and then I wear my jersey over the top and I just my nipples went so raw Like they were so damn.
Derrick Kampfer:My nipples are red-lined right now. Yeah, they are, yeah.
Dane:And you know how it is. When you like touch your nipples, they stand to attention, and so that makes it worse because that fishnet-like substance is grating them and so, yeah, it was very painful. That's where that came from Fishnet armor.
Josh:This is how you describe it.
Dane:I showed you a picture.
Josh:You showed me a picture of something.
Dane:And it was damn it, I'm gonna, we're gonna have to put this up on the, on the facebook, so people can see what this stuff looks like. It's just a very breathable way to put armor onto a shirt instead of having a shirt, so, but you need to wear an undershirt because of it, otherwise you'll get nipple damage, which is the third category yes, yep, exactly fabric, yep, fabric.
Derrick Kampfer:Yep, it sounds, but it can't be very important. Maybe you should talk, otherwise you'll get nipple damage, which is the third category. Yes, nipple management right. Yep, exactly Fabric, yep, fabric, it sounds an avoidance, but it can be very important.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Maybe you should talk to the guys from Faction, faction.
Josh:Yeah, dude, about nipple management.
Dane:I think that would be under their well, I guess, if they were designing armor Clothes. Armor, yeah, but yeah know that that was denisey. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correct, but they're a motorcycle armor company, and so I'm guessing that they usually put that over something else because motorcyclists probably would have nipple damage to better nipple management than mountain bikers dude, that's. It scarred me for life that you know how long ago that was let's see no, no, I mean not physically
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:not literally mentally.
Dane:I was scarred for life because nipples are sensitive and you don't need something like grading them on the way as you're cruising down at 30 miles an hour trying to avoid rocks.
Josh:You were talking about something else related to nipples. What was that?
Derrick Kampfer:He doesn't want to tell it. I don't remember it?
Josh:No, it was something about nibbling.
Derrick Kampfer:Oh God.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:No, we don't. Is that too far? No, I don't remember it. No, it was something about nibbling, oh God. No, we don't. Is that too far? No, I don't remember the context. It's already an NSFW episode.
Dane:Now it sounds weird.
Josh:Now it sounds weird Because there's no context. It was weird, it was weird you started it.
Derrick Kampfer:Derek, I don't know what you're saying. I was enjoying a meal at a family restaurant in nipple management with a bunch of randos.
Josh:Yeah, we should mention that today's the first day we've met Derek. Yeah, it's a chill vibe I enjoy it.
Derrick Kampfer:Well, we weren't very quiet in the restaurant while we were talking about nipples so I'm sure there was some earmuffs going on.
Josh:It went from World War II history or no, actually pre-Revolutionary War history right. Yeah To mountain bikes, yep To nipples.
Dane:Well, and then, yeah, sounds like a logical presumption. Yeah Right, you get a bunch of people in a room and get them fed and get some alcohol. Something's going to happen. So I'm just saying, nipples may come out.
Josh:Anyways, I have not really worn. I have worn the nipple manager shirt one time but I don't normally wear it because I'm worried that people, that the small percentage of the population that actually get it would would laugh, but everyone else would be like that's a weirdo.
Dane:Well, but that's okay. Who do you? Who, I mean? I care about what people think, but I don't care if somebody is like that guy's wearing a weird shirt. That's, I mean, that's. There's nothing wrong with that. We wear weird shirts all the time. How many people are like. If they didn't put cycles after pivot cycles on his shirt, people would be like is that a? Is that a?
Derrick Kampfer:you know, a friend's reference from when they were moving the couch, how many people get that reference Right, so like.
Josh:I don't get it. What's the pivot?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:You're barely old enough to get that reference.
Derrick Kampfer:Yeah.
Dane:What's the? I'm an old soul. Oh so in friends, in friends, so like when I when I first started carrying pivots. I can't tell you how many times I got this, this meme, sent to me where it's, I don't know the friends.
Derrick Kampfer:Yeah, there's Ross and Chandler.
Dane:Yeah, and there, and he's like pivot, pivot, pivot.
Josh:And and so like now, if you ride a pivot and you hear some guy go pivot, we gotta ask chris quick alice, is that where you came up the name?
Dane:no, no, because oh, that's uh, I don't know what you came first what came first?
Josh:well, because he had tightest.
Derrick Kampfer:I think, friends is before pivot. Yeah, you're talking late 90s mid late yeah that.
Dane:Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, definitely so we can find out when.
Derrick Kampfer:Well, so pull that, Jamie pull that up what's cool.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, jamie, throw that up on the board.
Dane:Get your executive assistant, jamie, to help out. What so? What's crazy is pivot, you know, makes full suspension bikes. When they came out, they only made full suspension bikes, so they named them pivot, which is awesome. But then a few years later, they made a hardtail. And do you know the name of that hardtail?
Josh:non-pivot, close, super close I got the data, I got the answer.
Dane:Okay, but let me finish my quiz. Go okay, do you know it?
Josh:I didn't even hear the question non, the hardtail pivot.
Dane:Do you know what it's called?
Josh:hardtail pivot, I don't know. Oh man, I'm so disappointed how about you?
Dane:you've got a shirt on, so I'm wondering if you the hardtail pivot. Do you know what it's called Hardtail pivot? I don't know. Oh man, I'm so disappointed. How about you? You've got a shirt on, so I'm wondering if you actually know.
Derrick Kampfer:I do not know.
Josh:Was he alive, though, when this started? How old are you, derek? I'm 36. Oh, he was definitely alive. Yeah, yeah, you look way younger than you actually are awesome, I thought you were older, clean living.
Dane:Okay, the answer to the quiz is the the hard tail pivot is called a pivot less. Oh, that's funny yeah, that's so, that's clever. I think it's clever, so pivot cycles was founded in 2007.
Josh:Okay, after chris uh left titus left tit, which he ran for 17 years before starting Pivot, and the TV series Friends ran from 1994 to 2004.
Dane:Wow.
Josh:So Friends came before Pivot.
Dane:It could have been Friends influenced the name. Chris was Titus, though, wasn't he? Yeah, he was Chris was Titus. It started in his garage, yeah, and he had a long life. There's a lot of different versions of what happened for him to go to Pivot, but most of it is he ended up getting, I think, financing and Brian Mason may chime in at some point and correct me, but I think he got financing through an investment company and they started to turn the direction that he didn't want to go and he wanted to move on to something else. He left, signed a non-compete and I swear to god, the story is that the day that non-compete, like uh, expired is when he showed up with a pivot, like a full-on built pivot, it's like leo fender for fender guitars man, that same thing.
Josh:No story. Like like I play a gno guitarist is the guitars I play.
Dane:Yeah.
Josh:And he left fender and then he went and did Ernie ball, and then he left Ernie ball and went and started G and L. Oh yeah, and the L and G and L is Leo.
Derrick Kampfer:Leo fender.
Josh:And it's like the evolution of what this? I don't even know why the fuck.
Dane:I'm talking about my my, we like origin stories. Yeah, we like to know where stuff came from.
Josh:Well if, you're looking for a great guitar like a badass, the future of what a Stratocaster would have been at Leo Stade, try a G&L Nice.
Dane:Legacy. So that's why I always give a little history on DVO, because people may not have ever heard of DVO. But as soon as I bring up Marzocchi back in the day then some people can connect and go oh, so remind the listeners that didn't listen to that DVO episode about the history between Marzocchi and DVO. Well, so the guys in North America, marzocchi started to get a little frustrated with the way the company was going. Same kind of situation. Somebody came in, bought Marzocchi Italian Marzocchi and kind of started to change the way they did things Italian Marzocchi and kind of started to change the way they did things and that was causing a lot of problems, a lot of QC issues they were having. It was just a departure from what they were and they were just a really solid brand for a certain type of writer. And then it kind of went away from that and the guys at the North American office were just kind of fed up.
Dane:They had a lot of ideas that weren't getting any kind of traction and people weren't really listening to them and so they just up and all left and they got an investor and started DVO. And that's kind of where DVO came from, and it lets you know that it didn't pop up from nowhere. It came from a lot of experience and a lot of know-how and so we got a lot of dvo fans in this room.
Josh:Right now I've got a dvo on the back of my my bike's front and rear powerpoint your your bike's front and rear.
Dane:I think, mike, you got it as well front and rear yeah derek you ever read.
Derrick Kampfer:Dvo have you ever ridden dvo.
Dane:Yeah, have you heard of it I have yeah, have you. So just because, jason no, I've seen.
Derrick Kampfer:I mean, I'm an avid YouTuber.
Dane:Not a YouTuber, but I watch a lot of.
Derrick Kampfer:YouTube obviously but yeah, I'm pretty interested in it, but I haven't worn out enough equipment to justify buying a very expensive Ford.
Dane:Oh man, it's worth it. It completely changed my bike Really.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah.
Derrick Kampfer:I've heard great things about it.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:It made it feel like a completely different bike.
Dane:Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff, and. I mean we're not paid by DVO, just so everybody knows so you talk about it incessantly.
Josh:By the way, if you want to deep dive on this episode 81 of the Mountain Cod podcast, we got Ronnie Dillon from DVO. It was a great episode. It was fun to do Ronnie's super famous. But, mike, why you say that it changed your bike? Like specifically, like, explain your experience here.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:It just felt more stuck to the ground. I felt more in control and I told Dane he talked about this a couple yeah, a couple episodes I've mentioned. I felt slow because I wasn't on the edge of disaster.
Dane:Yes, yeah, I was.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I felt more in control and it was just more comfortable.
Dane:You said you were going faster, and then your Strava told you different.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:No, I thought I was going slower.
Dane:I'm sorry, yeah, sorry, it felt slow.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, yeah, but then my Strava told me different.
Dane:Yeah, yeah.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:And so yeah. So now I, when I feel slow, I have to check just to make sure I actually am.
Josh:So you've told that story, but I didn't know that was Mike you were talking about, that's Mike.
Dane:Yeah, oh, wow, mike and Sharon.
Josh:Mike and Sharon. Interesting. Well, I love the rear shock, the coilover. It's a Jade X that I have and I just have the Jade, I don't have the X. What's the difference between a Jade X and a Jade X Jade.
Dane:X has a climb switch, a little bit more trail orientated. The Jade yeah, you're not going to give me the downhill one. Honestly you could, there's nothing wrong with it. But the Jade X came out and gave what people wanted, which was a climb switch so that you could turn, because it's a coil, and so you could then turn the damper to a middle mode, which kind of calmed it down, or to a firm mode, which some people call climb, but it basically makes it give a lot of personality and lets you kind of match the shock to the bike.
Dane:So on the rockies I haven't felt a need for a climb switch. Personally I don't, even if I get on the road I may notice it bob a little bit, but I haven't felt the need like I'm losing energy on my rocky and so the climb switch isn't that critical and that's why mike doesn't. I mean mike is like the human e-bike, like the guy can climb as fast uphill as I can on my e-bike and uh, so it's not really a need on that bike, but some bikes the design will really require that.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, and.
Dane:I don't feel any pedal Bob at all.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah.
Dane:Yeah, and so, um and Josh, you just got the newest version of whatever they had, and and um, that was really more at. The Jade X is kind of replacing the Jade. The Jade's going away.
Josh:And then you had me try. Was it the diamond or the Onyx, I can't remember.
Dane:You're on the Onyx, I was cause I gave it back to you.
Josh:Oh yeah, that's right and I never went when, so I had a problem. I just never got it dialed. Perfectly Right it was. It was sticking at the top for me. Yep, did you have a hard time setting yours up your fork? No, because they did it for me yeah, they set it up for me.
Dane:Yeah, we. So that's probably one of the things we talked about with ronnie is one of the. Some of the generations of dvo have a harder time getting set up, and if you know how to do it, it seems easy. But then if you go on a website and try and read how to do it, it seems really confusing. So it's like sex. Uh no, what are you talking about? Is that the A, the L or the M? Yeah, wait, yeah.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Are you back on nipples?
Derrick Kampfer:No, I'm not. What's going on now? No, I'm not, so no.
Dane:You know what sucks DVO's not know what sucks dvo is not here at sedona? How come? Uh, you know they have to make choices of where their their trucks go, and that is always a a thing I think they're gonna gear up for for a sea otter and be out there I heard rumors that they were recently in tucson testing.
Josh:They were, and I did not.
Dane:I I will admit that I did not make a good effort to find out what they're testing. I know that it was with a bike company and they were doing some testing.
Josh:Just helping that bike company dial in their products for that bike Likely.
Dane:This is all assumptions. If I had to infer that that hopefully this means that this bike company is going to start coming equipped with DVO, and then I'm going to be really excited.
Josh:I also heard a rumor that there was a bike company in town at the same time.
Dane:That's the bike company. Okay, yeah.
Josh:We probably shouldn't say that on the podcast. I'm trying not to yeah Cause cause.
Dane:These are buddies and we went out and had dinner and hung out, and I don't want to.
Josh:I don't want to you don't want to violate yeah.
Dane:They didn't make you. My assumption is that that company probably is talking to DVO and doing testing because they may want to put them on their bikes, which I think DVO really needs. One of the problems I've identified with DVO is that they make an awesome product but their marketing department isn't, as you know and hopefully those guys don't get mad at me for saying this, but it's just not the same level.
Josh:We talked about that in the podcast.
Dane:They said yeah, but it's just not the same level.
Josh:We talked about that in the podcast. They said, yeah, but I tell you what, when we were at, when I was at Cedar cause you didn't go with me last year I was surprised at the number of bikes I saw. Yes, yeah.
Dane:Expect with with DVO and I think booth. And we looked beyond that booth in the back of it and one of the company's bikes was up on the fence with full DVO on it and that company does not offer DVO and so that is a rider's bike for that company, so somebody that should say something.
Dane:Yeah, and so I kind of see that all over the place where you're like it doesn't come on the bike that they sell, but then you go look at their stable of bikes and you'll see it show up on their stuff.
Josh:Derek, what kind of suspension do you ride on your bikes?
Derrick Kampfer:I have two separate bikes, but on I have a pivot switchblade and I have a Fox 36 on the front back and Fox factory 36 on the front and I have a fancy. I got a Fox float in the back, okay, and I just actually actually, this is jason's old bike sitting right over here the specialized that I have yeah, yeah, he's got a, he's slumming it yeah I'm excited I have a specialized levo in this.
Josh:I ride specialized. Don't listen to dane, he's a specialized hater specialized are great bikes.
Derrick Kampfer:It's got a rhythm and a 36 rhythm and a float on the back. So I have a question for you because I really I'm really intrigued on people that that so you hate specialized but no, I don't.
Dane:I got to clarify. I like to make fun of specialized cause we don't carry them, and but I do have to admit that they are a good bike. There's nothing wrong with them. There's, uh, I, they're too popular, they're too cool. Well, no, that's what it is.
Josh:That's what it is. He's trying to be punk rock, it is. Yeah, like everyone hates track, yeah. How do you feel?
Dane:about.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Stram and Shimano.
Dane:So yeah, exactly.
Josh:We can get into that later. Everybody knows.
Derrick Kampfer:I got a free shirt from Shimano. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Shimano fanboy. So the first question you asked me have I ever heard of DVO? Right, would you ask me? Have I ever heard of Fox? Probably not, because they're they're marketing. If they're good at anything, if they make a crappy fork, they're good at marketing, right.
Dane:Yeah.
Derrick Kampfer:And how many people don't know that Fox racing and Fox suspension are two separate entities?
Dane:Well, so, so there's Fox head and Fox tail.
Derrick Kampfer:And that's tricky. Not a lot of people know that, right?
Dane:No, yeah, they think they're the same. In fact, I was just at Fox on Wednesday and we were talking about that very thing.
Josh:Wait a minute, guys. You guys are going to have to explain this to me, because I don't know what you're talking about.
Derrick Kampfer:So Fox Racing being like the protective, like the helmets, the pads, the shirts, all that kind of stuff, with Fox Suspension being exactly like your suspension, like your motorcycle trucks so two divisions of the same company or two separate entities of the same name, so I believe they're brothers used to be used to be.
Dane:They're different owners, I believe. Now I don't quote me because I don't know the details on that, but they have both made a very big effort to try and separate and not be considered the same company. Yes and so, um, so yeah, we always say fox head and fox tail. So fox suspension is the tail and Fox head. So if you see a sticker on a car and it's a Fox head, that'll be the apparel helmets, things like that. And if you see the Fox logo and you see a tail coming off of it, that'll be the suspension company.
Josh:I've seen that. Can I read some stuff? Yeah, absolutely so. Fox apparel, fox racing and Fox suspension Factory are not the same company anymore, though they share a common origin. Fox Racing, which makes apparel and productive gear for motocross and mountain biking, was founded in 1974 by Jeff Fox as Moto X Fox Fox Factory, which makes suspension components like forks and shocks, was originally part of the same company. However, in 2001, the suspension division was sold and became fox factory, operating as a separate company from fox racing.
Derrick Kampfer:I didn't know that man thank you for teaching me something new today so my question is say, my fork, my fork blows out, I need a new fork. As the expert, as the, as the specialist right that understands this, what would you say to try to convince me to go to DVO, if you know for a fact that DVO is a better? I'm not saying that it is yeah, but in your opinion it is.
Dane:Okay, that's the key word, so that's something that we as a society need to say more. Is this opinion or is this fact?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:We talked about this on the way up here.
Dane:Yeah, yeah, you have to make sure that when you're helping somebody, and so in my position, where I'm helping people as a professional and I'm trying to help them through a decision process, I need to make sure that I separate my opinion from facts. And so if you say how is a fox heavier or lighter than a dvo, that I can give you a factual answer. Does it ride better? That's going to be an opinion and different people will have different needs. So when we're selling suspension, we really have to talk to the customer to help them understand what they can do for them, and then also so we can understand what they're looking for. And so that is the tricky thing, cause we were talking about how, as this society moves away from talking to salespeople or somebody, they start reading about it or they start looking at a screen to get their answers, or we've talked about this on the podcast they go to YouTube and they watch a video about somebody writing that stuff and it gets really diluted and not specific to them.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:And that's what.
Dane:You're just pushing buttons, I'm not just pushing buttons, man, I'm calling bullshit.
Josh:Okay, listen, as a bike shop owner and the suspension guru, you appreciate all the products and you have to be Switzerland. You have to be.
Dane:So what are you saying? Am I not answering?
Josh:You haven't answered his question, you've told him why you're not going to answer his question.
Dane:But let's ask him a different question. I will answer the question. What?
Josh:suspension do you have on your bike DVO, on all your bikes, not on all of them, that's true. What else you got that you're not testing just to see how it works?
Dane:Yeah, so on my altitude, and yes, I'm testing it, but I like it now. Will it stay on? There is the question, and that's so. So one of the things I ask myself is, you know if, when I sell bikes, am I going to pull that fork off and save it for me, or am I going to leave it on the bike and sell it with the bike, and that's a big thing for me If I keep the fork. So the current fork on my pivot shuttle is was on my um, my Norco, and I kept the fork and I saved it and it's a DVO diamond, the SL, the new one, and so so when the one without OTT yeah, so.
Josh:I gotta tell you, you still like it.
Dane:I still like it. Yeah, it still does a phenomenal job. I was really worried and I definitely went in, tested the water on it before I was going to really commit to it. But the new SL systems that they're making that are no longer OTT, are much better than I even expected and I've been on a few of them. I just ordered another one for my bigger bike and so so, yeah, I mean, I think they're amazing.
Dane:Now, the reason that I have to like stall when I talk to a customer is I, different customers want different things. So again, if you were saying, hey, I, I have to like stall when I talk to a customer is different customers want different things. So again, if you were saying, hey, I'm going to get rid of my fox, what should I get? If your fox was a StepCast 34, I probably wouldn't recommend a diamond. It's not the right fork, it doesn't fit the right category If you are looking for certain features or if you're counting grams or you know, depending on what type of rider, the DVOs have a character to them. They have kind of a personality. They tend to be really focused on being supple, really small, bump, orientated and um, but you may not get as precise or refinements in the damper as you may on a different brand.
Josh:Well, let's, let's double click on his question and run a little experiment here sure okay, let's say that he does want to replace. It's the rhythm that you want to replace. Is that the one you're talking about? Or your factory? Which one?
Dane:he said he has a factory. Okay, yeah, so let's say you want to replace that so give us like an example of this process.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:So let's say he comes into the shop comes into the shop?
Dane:I don't know what I want Like so, if you came in and you're like so on op, something that happens in the shop all the time is you come in for service and so you come in and I'm going to serve as this fork. But hey, I'm thinking about upgrading. You know, now, most people that have a Fox factory, which is their top of the line on their bike, don't even consider upgrading because they've already got the most expensive fork. Or they may come in and say I've got last year's Fox and I want the new grip too, and there, or do you have the new grip too?
Josh:So there's a new grip X.
Dane:Yeah, grip X too. So yeah, and so show us the process. Like so.
Josh:So he talked to Derek show us the process.
Dane:So I would say, you know we would talk about what's one going to give over the other. So on dvo, for instance, do you want more of a carpety feel? So one of the things that I find on foxes and personally and with a lot of feedback from customers, is the small bump is much harder to achieve. That carpet like feel, where it just feels like you're. I don't know if you've ever ridden a bike on carpet and I use this term all the time. I wonder if people have ever ridden a bike on carpet. But it has this super damp and like soft ride. You know it's not going through a ton of travel, it's not going downstairs, it's just this, this velvety ride. So and that, if you're searching for that, if you've always felt like a little left let down by the Fox, you're going to be much happier with the DVO. But if you come back to me and say, no, I don't care about that, but when I go off a huge drop, I don't want it to bottom out or I have a hard time, you know like, for instance, I really want something that I can control, really finite control my damper, my high speed and my low speed on the rebound and the compression. You may be much better off with a Fox because they have taken the time to split that damper up that way, whereas the DVO focuses on the high speed and low speed compression.
Dane:But they have one rebound.
Dane:They haven't separated it, and so usually when you separate the rebound you're doing a lot of high impact events.
Dane:So like a drop or something like that where you don't want to feel bucked off but you want to be able to control that separately from your high speed, like rubble that you go through, like a rock garden. So imagine on a downhill you're going through a rock garden, you want the suspension to stay stuck to the ground, not bounce you all over the place, and be able to come through without jarring you like crazy. But then right after that is a 10-foot drop that you've got to hit, and so your rebound may be a little set for the rock garden, but when you do the drop it's not as appropriate as it could be. So that's the time that we usually see that high-speed and low-speed rebound needs to be. It's not very common and so not a lot of manufacturers are focusing on it. So Fox does, because they really focus on the top echelon of their riders, giving them feedback, and so they sometimes, I would say, prioritize that rider over the average rider more.
Josh:I do need to throw a shout out, and I've talked about this previously, but just since we're we're we're talking about suspension, um well, actually I think I'm cutting you off, derek. Do you have any perspective or thoughts on what Dane just told you?
Derrick Kampfer:I have a lot of questions, but um go, like I said, I just really enjoy, like, cause I'm not'm not that smart, like, well, I say that I'm not smart in those areas, right, my focus is in other areas. Yeah, I like to be told what I need. Yes, as a consumer, yep, I like to be told what I need because, like, are you good at fixing cars?
Derrick Kampfer:yeah, I mean well I don't know, like on the average, like at some respect. I may not know what I need, I may not understand everything that you said. I would think that's your average consumer and for absolutely. Fox DVO, rock Shocks, not your top podium racers, are not the people that's making you millions of dollars and making Fox Fox. It's your consumers.
Dane:Yeah, I would really argue that 99.9% of consumers listening to your podcast if they do understand about 0.1% of what you just said.
Derrick Kampfer:That's very, very true. I need to be told what's best for me, right? So if I walk into a shop and they're like, hey, what kind of writing do you like, what do you like to do, how do you your? Your, your fork is shot.
Dane:So, like you said, I brought it in for servicing.
Derrick Kampfer:Yep, yeah I. What should I buy? Because fox is awesome, fox is is the top notch yeah what else do I have? What do you recommend?
Dane:so. So with with people that come in the shop, if the fork is just getting service, you're talking for us it's, it's 120, 150 bucks service. So it's not worth getting rid of a eleven hundred dollar, twelve hundred dollar fork, right, so we don't jump to oh, you need service, you should get a new fork. That's, that's not's. Our whole business is around making those keep going. Um, the difference is when the customer comes in, we have to really talk to them about what they need and try and figure it out, even though they may not know what they need. So I would ask you questions that had to do with like what trail do you ride? How do you ride? You know, uh, in, in, uh. In a local area where we're in the shop and you're coming into the shop, I have a huge advantage because I can say, hey, what's your favorite trail, and that will tell me a lot about you.
Josh:What is your favorite trail there?
Derrick Kampfer:My favorite shows actually in Washington. I started writing in Washington. Okay, that's not going to help me at all.
Josh:How about your favorite trail in Arizona? My?
Derrick Kampfer:favorite trail in Arizona. My favorite trail in Arizona is actually right down the road. My favorite trail is Adobe Jack, for whatever reason, like I love the way it whips and turns.
Josh:Okay.
Derrick Kampfer:It's an easy trail.
Dane:Yeah.
Derrick Kampfer:But sometimes you just want to wake up and do something easy. You don't get to do something challenging every day. Yep.
Dane:Yeah, so easy stuff is fun. I don't know, is that in Sedona here? Yes, three miles down the road is that near the like the where grand central is? Is that near chuck wagon and stuff in that mezcal area?
Derrick Kampfer:I think maybe in the general area it's like, yeah, towards the end of where soldiers passes, like that big kind of conjoining area yeah kind of hard to describe unless you've seen it. But yeah it's very fun, very flow, very whippy so I like all kinds of stuff. It's my favorite yeah.
Dane:So like, uh, instance, if we are using a trail that's got a lot of descending, a lot of hard hits, a lot of drops, maybe jumps, things like that, that's going to help me kind of figure out which fork is better. I'm going to look at your stature and what size you are. I'm going to look at the bike you're putting on like a switchblade. So like, if you're putting it on a switchblade, that bike is so versatile to go up to bike parks and to be a cross-country bike like it's. It's super versatile, so you want a fork that matches that.
Josh:So I'm not going to necessarily suggest a 38 um fox or dvo, because that may be too much you know, because the bike really matters, because the kinematics of the bike really matters, because the kinematics of the bike he hates that word.
Dane:Well, I don't hate it, I just have not quite figured out what it is.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Can you define that?
Josh:for me. No, we got a really succinct definition last time. No, we did not. We absolutely did. It's how two things in motion interact with each other.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Okay, yeah, that would be you and me nipple man, and yeah, is that your two nipples when you're running down the street, so regardless every bike.
Josh:The the actual design of the bike. Yeah, is designed to handle suspension its own way, and you may recommend a different suspension product. Yeah, depending on the specific bike I'll give you a great example.
Dane:If you come in the shop, we just sold a pivot to a customer and the stock fork is a one 50 travel. Every time I buy a bike because we have large rocks and a lot of pedal strikes in Arizona, um, and it tends to be an A an issue, even with pivots which have a high bottom bracket. I tend to, because I like descending and I favor descending and I'm not as much into climbing.
Dane:I add usually 10 millimeters to my fork, so when I bought that same bike, I put it at 160 and you added to my forks when you put them on my diamond yep, exactly, and so you know, I'm looking at the way you ride, how you ride. So this guy that comes in and buys this fork has ridden with me and we've gone to bike parks together and he asked me the same question hey, is this the travel you put on yours? And I'm like no, I did 160. And he goes. I want to ride like you, not because I ride good but, he's riding the same areas that we're riding.
Dane:He goes can you put it to 160? And I said, yes, so now that same fork on that bike cannot go to 170. And so had he put that, a DVO set to a guy on a bike and he's like I want you to change travel and make it longer, and I have to on the rear. And I had to say, hey, I may or may not be able to do that, and we have a process to figure it out, and ultimately he was already at the max, so we couldn't do that.
Josh:And you overstroked multiple of my bikes. Yeah, honestly, yeah, multiple of my bikes.
Dane:Yeah, yeah, yeah we. I mean, when it comes to the front, you can get away with a lot. Now, if a guy comes in with a Santa Cruz blur, which is a hundred millimeter race bike, and he goes, can you put a Fox 38, one 70 on the front? First of all, I'm going to ask him how much money do you have?
Dane:Then I'm going to be like are you sure I mean I can do it. But you know that's that's the guy that I'm going to take a lot of time and help him kind of figure out if that's the right way to go. If, ultimately, we have a discussion and I've told him all the drawbacks and he still wants to do it, and I tell him it could rip the front end of the bike off, he it's his money, you know he could go online and buy it and do it himself, you know. But I'm just going to make sure he understands why it may not be the most appropriate fork. And the same thing for if you come in with a Firebird which is, you know, 160 in the back and you want to put a 34 on the front at 140 because you want to bring the weight down, it's just I'm going to show you why it's not appropriate. But the hardest discussion is between brand loyalty. That's the hardest part.
Dane:I like DVO because I've learned its character. I like the way it rides. It has a specific way that rides. It for me is just super enjoyable. And when I'm on a brand, I just tested a bike this week that had a Fox factory on it and I just got off of it going.
Dane:I don't like this fork. It's a top of the line fork and I fiddled with it and fiddled with it and tried to make it how I want it and I could not get it to way I wanted it, got right back on my DVO and I was like it was. I was at home, you know, and so the the thing that makes me not go tell everybody they should get a DVO is that I realize there are different people that want different things. I don't want them to think that I'm only telling them what I like you know and that's important because I build trust with people and I don't want them to think that, oh, he just is selling me what he likes you know it's probably worth just a little public service announcement and I just looked this up to verify.
Josh:But like every, if you do overstroke your fork every 10 millimeters that you increase will also will actually decrease your head tube angle by 0.5 to 0.7. Yeah, so if you have a 65 degree head tube angle and you increase your your fork by 10 millimeters, you'll now have a 64.5 head tube angle which will change how the bike actually handles. So just recognize that. And it would be the inverse of that if you shorten the fork?
Dane:Yep, exactly. And then that affects the bottom bracket height, which, again in Arizona, is a big issue for us because we have lots of pedal strikes. The other thing about some of the things that are unknown with switching out forks and doing things is companies will usually recommend a travel on the bike, and sometimes they're doing it just because they have tested it at that and that's their optimum and that's what they think you should ride, and if you change it, you may not get the optimum experience in their eyes, and if you change it, you may not get the optimum experience in their eyes. Other times they are literally not approving that product because it could break the bike. And so, for instance, on a Slayer, on a Rocky Mountain Slayer, the head tube is approved for a triple clamp, which is what downhill forks are, and that puts a different load and stress on. It's very stiff, doesn't have as much flex, and so a lot of that energy goes into the frame instead of the fork, um, and so they are approved for that. So they actually.
Dane:They actually have a brand, a version called the park version, which is where they put all the downhill stuff on their free ride bike, and we had a team rider who was riding a Santa Cruz a nomad, if I remember correctly and she wanted to put a triple clamp on the front because that's what she was racing downhill on. Just it was her lightweight long travel bike and she was racing downhill and I called Santa Cruz and they're like, nope, not on that one. She was racing downhill and I called Santa Cruz and they're like Nope, not on that one. And so what we were getting from them is a strength and safety issue, not necessarily, hey, it's not going to be like we tested it or perfect, you know. So we, we as a shop, we're, we're real aware of that and we help people through that.
Dane:So so, to answer your question, I personally I would I as soon as you're done talking I, I personally, I would say that the DVO fork for me has been so successful in the feedback that we get from the people that buy it. It is very rare that people are not happy with it. I know of one person and, and I'll tell you, my buddy Justin is the second person, and he actually had a problem with his fork that we had to fix. I think I had a problem as well. Yeah, no, cause you were riding my old fork.
Josh:Yeah, I just don't think I had it set up right.
Dane:Yeah, I think so too, cause I put that on one of my bikes and love it and you worked fine. I'm like this thing, I can't get to work and and we address that in that podcast with ronnie is one of the reasons they're switching from the ott design, which is in your fork mic, to the new sls is because they've had so much um, muddy info, uh, and feedback and reviews of their product.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Because of setup. Yeah, that's what I was, because I wouldn't have been able to set that up on my own.
Dane:It's got these cool features and that is one of the things with, let's say, the Fox Factory, with the high-speed and low-speed rebound, or I see this. We service King Creek and King Creek makes there's a lot of adjustments on a King Creek and sometimes customers like you said, they just want it to work too many knobs.
Josh:Yeah, and they want it to to to just answers.
Dane:Yeah, yeah and and so like. For instance, when Fox developed CTD climb, trail descend they were really trying to give the the majority rider easy way to adjust that for their ride style.
Josh:Yeah, Just click. Click it to climb trailer descent.
Dane:And it is crazy, because that was their motivation and it was super successful. Oh, by the way, like people knew exactly how to adjust theirs. Now, when I do a suspension clinic and there's high speed and low speed, I spend like two hours trying to explain to people and give them examples of what that does and how it's affected, and it's very difficult to wrap their heads around unless they they really go to school on on this stuff. And so I agree with you Sometimes the simpler damper is is better, the the big thing that I'm seeing right now is the simpler dampers tend to suck.
Derrick Kampfer:Like uh, yeah.
Dane:And they. Just how do you feel about that? In what regard?
Derrick Kampfer:well, like they're not just like somebody that's like a great, great rider or somebody that's just your everyday riders everyday rider.
Dane:So so instead of making it a simple like a ctd, where you're just kind of getting three different positions and then your damper functions well, especially under high loads, they're making a cheap damper. That is easy to understand, but it's not very well refined. One exception to this that I really like and I've mentioned this before is Fox's grip damper is one of my favorite dampers.
Josh:That's probably what's in your rhythm, right.
Dane:Yeah, he doesn't have a rhythm he said it over and over.
Josh:One of his bikes't have a rhythm. He said it overnight.
Derrick Kampfer:On one of his bikes. Rhythm is in the Specialized yeah in the.
Josh:Specialized?
Dane:yeah, but that would be a grip damper, right that's a grip yeah, and so the grip damper was one of the first dampers that Fox made. That was called Springback IFP, which means that it has a… Look at Derek's face right now.
Derrick Kampfer:Yeah, I know that's why I go to the shop.
Dane:Yeah, yeah, that's why I go to the shop Shout out Center Spokes.
Derrick Kampfer:Yeah, they're great, yeah.
Dane:So honestly, what the grip damper does that some of the it just tells you, at this position it's going to be open, and as you move it towards the back it's going to be closed. And if you move it somewhere in between, in fact on a true grip, they'll put a little indent in the middle so that you have kind of an open trail and closed mode. But the reason that is a low-cost damper that works really well is the mechanics inside, the valving inside, still work really well at high speeds under big loads. Uh, I have actually taken the fit damper out of my factory 34 and put a grip into it because I ride more aggressive than the fit really liked.
Josh:I mean the fit was more for cross country.
Dane:Yeah, and it has a smaller oil volume and if you're doing long descents on that, it's going to heat up faster. It's not going to be as consistent.
Josh:What happens when, uh when, you heat up the shock or the fork oil?
Dane:uh, it gets thinner, and so then it moves faster, and so it's inconsistent.
Josh:So what does the ride feel If I don't know what the hell you're talking about? It gets bouncy it gets bouncy, yeah, yeah.
Dane:And so if that damper needs service, this happens when it needs service, but you don't notice it as a rider when they need service because it's slowly been happening over time and so every so you've been in every ride, you've been conditioned a little bit more and a little bit more and you don't really notice. It's the grand Canyon effect. You know it doesn't happen quickly, so, but that's. I get a ton of accolades from customers when they get their suspension back because they're like oh my God, it feels so much better. You're a magician and I'm like, I changed the oil. I like you know like.
Derrick Kampfer:I mean, I do more than that. It's the opposite. Right, you get used to abuse because I just had my fork serviced and before I felt like I had it perfectly dialed, like this thing is banging on all cylinders, and I took it in. He's like this thing is on its last leg and after I got it back I was like this is terrible, just put the old stuff back in, because I feel like I rode so much better. Obviously, it's been a few rides, it's been a couple of months. I've ridden it a lot, but at first I just didn't know any better. I've been riding this bike for so long.
Dane:Yeah, it's the new shoes versus old shoes. You put your old shoes on, they fit like a glove, but there's no tread, you can't climb, you can't run and your feet hurt at the end of the day, but, man, they feel good going on you know, and you don't know that you're losing all this other stuff. And so when your fork gets service, when it comes back, if it, like you know, in our service center we changed, did you get yours done through us?
Derrick Kampfer:No, I got mine done through my local shops.
Dane:Well, so as your shop, the local shops, well, so it's your shop. The one that you mentioned sends stuff to us sometimes probably.
Josh:Well, no, you'll see you'll, you'll see a sticker.
Dane:If you did, it would say guru, on the fork when you get a sticker yeah, but a lot of local shops send their stuff to us and so, um, because these things get complicated and they get hard to work on and and shops are tired of them changing it every year and have to buy all the new tooling and stuff, and so service centers like ours are getting popular, because we can let your shop be the hero and get it done for you. You don't have to go two places to get your tune-up and your suspension service.
Josh:I might be biased, but I don't know of any other service centers like you.
Dane:They are there because I pay attention, because I have to go meet with all these guys.
Derrick Kampfer:I don't agree with you. They're, they're much smaller. Yeah, yeah, didn't the lost code just go to a straight suspension service up in washington?
Dane:you know, you guys don't pay attention to washington uh, yeah, I'm not sure, but um, I I feel like that's scary, you know, so like uh doing just suspension.
Josh:So with us we're a suspension center and a bike shop yeah and it's very symbiotic and it works back to the fact that the frame kinematics really make a difference in the suspension that's needed and how it needs to perform. If you're not staying up with what's going on with the frames, yeah, how the hell, can you actually service or recommend?
Dane:so we recently had a bike in that we service the suspension and the customer is, um, uh, we did a bunch of work on his bike and there is a creek that he's convinced in the fork, and we spent a ton of time trying to diagnose it and it's not in the fork. You know, um, there's something going on in the bike, uh, but it's so hard to diagnose because he's put new bearings and what have you in it? Um, and that also is something that we have an advantage of cause. If that customer has an issue, you know they can come right back and they can. They can.
Dane:We're, we're not just testing the one piece, you know we're, we're doing the whole system, but we have a lot of people ship into us too, and and so it's, it's tough. You know, on one that we we brought on a new employee that came from a different service center and he had a lot of great advice and one of the things that he was like well, you guys need to take more settings, you know, and so that you can put their settings back. But one of the problems with that is like what you experienced Once that oil's changed, changed, the suspension will act differently, and so your settings might not be the right settings.
Josh:They may not. That's my experience.
Derrick Kampfer:Like I'd, put it because I wrote it down. I like I don't know a piece of tape on the fork, yep, yep so exactly what it was. Yeah, and it took me a while to dial it back. Now it feels pretty good, but it took me a while to find what that, what that new zero looks like Do you remember what you changed after it got back? Uh, not really. I mean I I wrote it down and put it again. I get hit in the head a lot.
Derrick Kampfer:So that's why I write it down and put it on a piece of tape.
Dane:Yeah, right, uh, so yeah, it's it. It's tough when we're selling suspension. We really need to know much more about the the rider. Um, you know I keep bringing this up, but when you get these experiences online and you're trying to make these decisions without that interview, you're not getting the same experience and you're not getting the same help in kind of defining it, and so your experience you may not get the best product, because every one of these companies I will tell you will tell you that their product is the best and that why would you buy a Fox when you could have a DVO? And then, when I go talk to Fox, they're like are you kidding me? We make the best suspension. And then the guys at RockShox are like you guys are both on something because our stuff is the best, you know.
Derrick Kampfer:You want that right. You don't want to walk in a DVO and they're like, yeah, fox and shit, we're not very good, I know but.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:If the only.
Dane:Yeah, I get that. But when you get advice on these things, the manufacturer is never going to tell you about the other brands.
Josh:So that's a biased point. We haven't talked about this much, but I do got to just say my favorite suspension product right now is the Zeb with the 3.1 damper and the buttercups.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:And.
Josh:I am now researching the commensurate different fork sizes. So like a pike and a lyric for my other bikes. Yeah, and I literally so. He said, and maybe his general question, like the way that thing feels, I've never felt anything like it. It's fucking amazing, yep, but it's on a super ass heavy. Is there a sticker on the back?
Dane:of your fork probably you did it, does it say, guru? I'm sure it does just checking.
Josh:Yeah, no, no, no, man, I was just giving you kudos a minute ago. Here's what I'm saying, like if I so. So I got a fox performance with a grip, so it's not as good as your factory. It's just like the lower, lower level on my crop, on my specialized epic evo, which you overstroked, yeah, yeah because yours is a 34.
Dane:34. Is that 130?
Josh:140.
Dane:Yeah 140.
Josh:And then I don't know what we did in the back. We took it up 10 millimeters in the back as well. Yeah, irrespective, I'm trying to see if I get a pike and I put a 3.1 with buttercups on that Epic Evo.
Dane:Is it going to feel as awesome as that Zeb on my super ass? Heavy Rocky mountain on your Rocky mountain. Yeah, oh, wait, wait. So I'm sorry, I want to.
Josh:I want to duplicate the suspension that I have in that damn e-bike on every bicycle I have. Yeah, and I'm, and I, I'm, I'm thinking I know that the weight of the e-bike changes the suspension like performance.
Dane:It's the same me, I think, since the engineers on these projects are really consistent. You will find that if you stick with a brand, you tend to learn their personality, and that personality will kind of shine through on a lot of their products, are you?
Josh:telling me that I'm falling in love with a SRAM product. Oh shit, you have to give that shirt back.
Dane:Oh Jesus, I didn't even think about that.
Josh:Well, shimano doesn't make suspension, so I can like RockShox suspension and I like.
Dane:Shimano or anything else for sure.
Josh:Until Shimano comes out with suspension, and then I'll probably switch.
Dane:Well, who knows?
Josh:Are they? I don't know. Are they? Is that what they're going to show you? No, are they? No?
Dane:Okay, but um, so I would say that, uh, one of the biggest shining. By the way, just a side note, we had a listener contact us about the Zeb and upgrading it and it. It is very frustrating journey for me because the guy is super awesome but getting the information about his fork and finding what's in an OE fork was way too hard. Did you figure it out or no? Yeah, I did, uh, and unfortunately he would have to do the same journey that you did which was an expensive journey.
Josh:I had to replace the air shaft and the damper and put buttercups in yep yeah, but I was like I trust you dane, yeah go do it.
Dane:His, his fork is one level up than yours started and it has the better damper in it, but in the oe version it does not have the buttercups, and so he has to still replace both, and that was frustrating because it's like he's got this awesome damper in there. There's no reason to get rid of that, but in order to get the buttercups, and I truly feel like the buttercups, so interesting dude, we've driven derrick to three beers.
Josh:Yeah, I know sorry, man interesting he's like why did I fucking agree to this?
Dane:so interesting hang out.
Josh:Derrick's got to say something he's waiting to say something I don't know.
Derrick Kampfer:I was good, I'm good, I like listening, yeah, so so on to Derek's question.
Dane:You know, when you bring up the buttercups, one of the things that the buttercups create is this small bump, yeah, Smooth. It feels to me the way you explain a DVO Yep, exactly. And so that is something that I think that the buttercups have allowed RockShox to achieve that they really haven't achieved in the past. And so you know, because these engineers are sometimes looking at like cycles on a machine, they're looking at data, they're looking at spike events, you know, on these dampers to figure out what they're doing. Then they're going out and testing them with riders and getting feedback, and they're rarely testing them with riders like us. You know, just regular guys.
Josh:They're usually World Cup athletes that are giving them feedback and we keep telling them send us your stuff, we'll test it. Wait, I got to be careful. Okay, because people have started to do that. Yes, but do have a question.
Dane:Well, no, don't stop them from doing that. Okay, keep doing it Keep sending us shit.
Josh:That's awesome, but hang on before you go, mike. Okay, if you send us something and we don't like it, we will tell people Don't.
Dane:I'm not saying, we will tell people.
Josh:I won't tell anybody when we give you feedback when we give you feedback, don't tell us we're stupid and then fight what we're telling you.
Dane:Yeah.
Josh:If you're not interested in like real, objective feedback, don't send us your stuff. Let's not go into specifics.
Dane:No, we're not going to specifics, but I will tell you that that comment from josh right now is because this has happened and we had one instance when this is happening so far. It's not ever an issue, it's not an issue.
Josh:But right now we're like, okay, you should fix this, this and this. Here's why yeah. And then you want to try to convince us that we're wrong, like, okay, yeah, we just want opinion. But, like you know, take it for what it's worth.
Dane:But the value of the average rider is very high when you're developing a product.
Josh:So why don't they test more with average riders? That was my question. I'm sorry I stole your question, mike. That was my question, why?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:don't they do that I mean it would make sense, because that's most riders.
Dane:When I've talked to Ronnie and other people that have to do this stuff. So so ronnie at dvo is the guy in the trailer who's trying to change the inside of the fork every run for that rider to to get it to feel how the rider wants the. When I opened guru, one of the the most common comments from other tuners or suspension guys was to not tune, and the reason that they get frustrated with it is because people don't always know either how to say what they want or they don't know what they want, and so getting that feedback is very difficult. Now I've dealt with a couple pro riders who can actually identify things that they need and can give you feedback. That is much more valuable and we talked about that with faction and getting that is much more valuable.
Dane:And we talked about that with faction, you know, and getting that feedback is super valuable. The downside to that is you're getting the feedback from somebody going twice to three times the speed of an average rider, and so then you know I would say that those engineers honestly, can just throw a fork at anybody who works at their engineering firm, they can go ride it and they can get that feedback. So they probably get that feedback from themselves.
Josh:I think that is a more abundant feedback right, because any one of those guys can be like yeah, I don't like this.
Dane:Yeah, but uh, genuinely, when I'm dealing with people with suspension, it's very difficult for them to articulate what they want to to, to tell me what they want or to tell it to me in a way that I can physically make it manifest.
Josh:I'm going to totally change the subject. Mike, if I remember correctly, you run some really weird not weird, but unique pedals. Oh, yes. Yes, tell us about your pedals man.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:They're a by peddling innovations are called the catalyst and they're just really really long. Like how long Uh?
Josh:they span from the ball of my foot all the way to the heel damn wow, from the ball of your foot all the way to the heel, that's like they recommend?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:they recommend that you line the axle up with the arch of your foot instead of having to. That's all I read.
Derrick Kampfer:I get told all the time that that is wrong, but I've I've been riding motocross since I was a kid. Yeah, dirt bikes all the way through. That's how I was taught right, so you can shift and move Every person that sees me ride a mountain bike. They may comment on the way that I put my foot on the pedal.
Dane:Do you do arch over the?
Derrick Kampfer:spindle.
Dane:Excuse me.
Derrick Kampfer:I put it essentially yeah, yeah. The axle of the pedal right there, almost in the arch of my foot, that's where mine is. I get comments constantly about like, oh, you're not getting proper traction, you're not getting this wire can ride fast and you're slow, so so what does it really?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:matter for this uh, yeah, so the guy who designed these pedals he he's a mountain bike coach in boulder, I believe, and he designed them for standing pedaling.
Dane:Yeah.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:He, he preaches standing most of the time. Okay, I, when you're under what?
Derrick Kampfer:is this.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I think he says high stress actions on the bikes.
Josh:Yeah, what's the name of the company?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:again, pedal innovation pedaling innovations.
Dane:So so I there's a couple of things that kind of oppose each other, and sometimes that is so like there's some data coming out where moving your foot forward and getting closer to that arch is actually becoming more and more popular from the fit standpoint and power delivery. I think that's where the ball of the foot over the spindle comes from, and so a lot of that has to do with a system where you're clipped in and they're trying to create the most power, so you're using your calf and your quads, and so I think there's a like, a, even, you know, a kind of a not a happy medium, but I think you can get away with both types of stance. The big thing is to make sure that you're not doing any damage to your legs, you know. So like it's funny because you could sit, you could decide that you just want to pedal with your heel over the axle, and if you ride the bike and then you end up being faster than your buddy, you could tell everybody it's faster.
Dane:But it's not really that that's making you faster. It could be the fact that you know how to ride, or have bigger muscles or more endurance, or you know you have a taller gear on your bike, you know, um. So these things, these different types of ways. So a new trend that's coming out is con. Yes, is that right? Convex? Am I saying that right? So, convex, and I just wrote a pair of the new um, I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about them, so I'll just say a new brand, or a brand's new version.
Josh:Let's explain the difference between concave and convex.
Dane:Okay, yeah, help me, cause I don't know so cave is the curve goes down. Yeah, okay, convex curve is okay, so it's concave, so basically so, so these pedals are designed to where the ball of your foot or the center of the axle sinks into the pedal.
Josh:It's low.
Dane:Convex of the pedal. It's low, convex would be the opposite. Yeah, yeah, so concave, so so your foot fits in almost a cradle and they're really kind of. I think the goal is for them to be a little bit more cross-country. So, like, for instance, on my cross-country bike, I ride flats because I have knee issues and I can't ride clip in.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Are they? Are they flats, the concave ones? Yeah, yeah that's interesting, because mountain bike shoes are flat. Yes, yeah.
Dane:Well, they're flat for because, yeah, I haven't you. Mainly because they, yeah, I don't know. So I can't make them an arch, because everybody's arches are different place, so like so so on these.
Josh:I just want to get back to these pedaling, pedaling innovations. I don't want to lose this. Maybe, since you guys are both sitting in the same house, you could try out your bike and pedal around and see if that's something you like. It looks like you are paying a penalty, a weight penalty of about a hundred grams, that's not a big deal.
Dane:So that's a quarter pound. I wonder, if there's a, I can lose a quarter pound.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I wonder did you read?
Josh:it A quarter pounder.
Dane:Is there any power or watts difference? Because that's where the movement of the foot forward and back can affect your power, because as you move closer to away from the ball of your foot and towards your arch, you can't use your calves as much.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, I wouldn't know, because it's what I've been writing. I mean, I started on clipless.
Josh:Yeah.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Which is a whole other conversation. But I was the king of slow speed crashes. Yeah, yeah, yeah Because, plus yeah, which is a whole other conversation but I was the king of slow speed crashes.
Dane:Yeah, yeah because we'd stop and I would just fall over yep yeah so I switched yeah and I don't remember how I ended up with these, but I love them so one one thing that I've heard from other customers that have them is there's a lot more pins and a lot more contact a lot of pins so you stay contacted to them more and it gives me more leeway to not be as precise with my feet.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yep.
Dane:Yeah, if I plus you're something. What size shoes do you wear?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I had small feet, 10 and a half.
Dane:Okay, yeah, all right. Yeah, you have tiny little baby feet.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:And so yeah, so if I hit a rock or something, my foot tiny little baby feet.
Derrick Kampfer:Little baby cute.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:They're so cute, baby foot. Can we go back to the moment? Baby foot Mike.
Derrick Kampfer:You guys are going to edit this out, right?
Josh:Everything's getting edited out. Mike just got a new nickname.
Dane:Oh no.
Josh:He's going to be baby foot Mike from now on he's going to be.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Six inches. I know some.
Josh:Six inches.
Dane:This is six inches, six inches this is six inches, so we were talking about the concave pedals, right yeah, sorry I cut you off it's okay. One of the things that they're experimenting with is more people riding flats in cross country because, uh, not wanting to be clipped in being able to put their foot down.
Dane:There's a lot of advantages to to being flat, and I think this guy actually um pedal pedaling innovation I think, he preaches flat pedals over clipless and um, and so he's trying to create a, a scenario where people feel more comfortable on the bike. And I'm for that, because I have a limitation that makes me ride flats, so I can't pick my foot up, I can't use that second set of muscles that you get with the clip-ups.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:There's not a lot of advantage to doing that anyway. There's been studies that show that there's some power advantage, but not a lot.
Dane:Yeah, it depends on what your discipline is. So when I was training for downhill and I was doing a lot of road, I was clipped in all the time. I definitely could switch muscle groups, so, uh, to get to give one a break. And so that happens. And you can also use the full pedal stroke, which can give you an advantage for power sprinting, um, but uh, I, when I stopped competing at least, uh, anything like that required a lot of pedaling.
Josh:You guys, I'm going to throw some facts at you right now. Okay of pedaling, you guys, I'm about to throw some facts at you right now.
Dane:Okay, hold on, you guys go. What the hell? I'm just talking, I'm just. I just. He just said there was no advantage and I'm gonna tell you what the actual advantage. Um so, anyway, um so anyway.
Dane:Uh, dan hates it when I interrupt him when the big thing for me is, I reached a point where being clipped in caused more disadvantages with my knees and then literally, like you, falling over. If I was in a technical climb and trying to, like you know, pogo up a section of rocks, I would be locked in and then I would get, I would fall over and not be able to get out. Uh, and that fear caused me to stop doing that, which limited how much I would ride. And so when I went back to flats, I had this huge confidence because I could step off the bike super easy, I could put my foot down in a corner if I lost traction and because I race downhill bikes, that's my natural ride anyway, so it fit me.
Dane:I have other people that are like, how do you ride your bike without clips? Because they've used the clips to be connected to the bike and actually pick the bike up when they jump or through a garden, or to actually leap the bike up a section to get up a step or something. So it really depends on the person and his I, his concept is hey, can we make these better for people that don't want clipless pedal innovations? Yeah, and then, uh, these con a concave pedals thank you, um are because they're kind of curving around your foot more are supposed to be more orientated towards cross country. They'll give you a more comfortable feel and they'll let you scoop the pedals a little bit more to use a little bit more muscle groups.
Josh:Yeah, so the power advantage of clipless pedals compared to flat pedals on mountain bike typically range between 5% and 15% in most studies, Though the exact benefit varies based on several factors. Power advantage is most noticeable in specific situations extended climbs, technical climbs, sprint scenarios where maximum power is needed in high cadence pedaling. Five to 15%.
Dane:Yeah, and then you add any drawback to either side and it'll weight that one way or the other.
Josh:Yeah, because the advantage comes with trade-offs Less freedom, potential for slower, more complicated dismounts, learning curve for new users, and you need to have specific shoes. By the way, anytime I'm stating this stuff, it's coming from Claude AI, which is a tool developed by Anthropic in San Francisco.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yes, we should try that other interesting AI, no Rock, no in San Francisco.
Dane:We should try that other interesting AI.
Josh:Rock, no. So what do you think, man, these pedal innovations? Is that interesting to you?
Derrick Kampfer:Yeah, I've been looking at them for a while. I'm really good on color. If I look at it and it's like a lame color. I'm good, I'll wait. Mine are pretty, they're blue. That's how I recognize you. I was like, oh, I know that bike.
Josh:And blue. Yeah, that's how I recognize you. So I was like I know that bike and then I looked everybody recognizes my bike, baby foot, baby foot mike is more recognizable.
Dane:Hey, so, for all the the this, for the 60 countries that we talked to 66, 66 what? What is sharon's instagram handle?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:uh, sharon the mountain bike, sharon t-h-e-m-t-. Uh, sharon the mountain bike. Sharon T H E M T B. Okay At Sharon the mountain bike.
Dane:Nice. So every time we talk about, yeah, Mike's bike, and and how it's very recognizable, you'll immediately can't say Mike's bike, we have to say baby foot Mike's baby foot Mike you don't really have to do that, it's done.
Derrick Kampfer:Mike, it's done. Call me E-Mike instead. Wasn't I watching a dirt shed? Let's go back to the cool thing when I was awesome, right you?
Dane:still are awesome. So Sharon was on Dirt Shed, wasn't she?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, I sent in her picture that one time. Yeah, they didn't quite know what to make of her.
Dane:Yeah, they, because they're British and you know, and she got the lowest, I will Right not a super nice, just a nice. Just a nice and so.
Josh:Is that user voted? No, it's just them. Oh, the host, it's just them. Who cares I?
Dane:just want to say that Mike called me that day in tears and I had to talk him off a ledge.
Josh:Was he really? It was a bad day.
Dane:Yeah.
Josh:What is the? You've got an interesting. So Dane recently got me a switchblade frame which I'm going to, which I still haven't paid you for any. I haven't given it to you?
Dane:Yeah, yeah, give it to me and I'll pay for it.
Josh:Uh, and it's the same bike that my, by the way. Like I'm a shitty mountain biker and I'm married to a woman who's an amazing mountain biker, she rides a switchblade.
Derrick Kampfer:She's really good she getting the same exact color.
Josh:Yeah, and I'm like I do not want to have the same exact color. Is it the hot pink one that just came out? No, that would have been awesome.
Dane:Are you a size medium, because I got one at the shop.
Derrick Kampfer:I'm a large, I'm like a nice in-betweener size I like to ride mediums every now and then because they're fast and twitchy.
Dane:Yep, yep the talon right large, just kind of that was that called the town. We got one at the shop with all the little characters on it and stuff like that, that hot. That is such a beautiful bike. I think ours is one 98 out of 300. So yeah, that's awesome.
Josh:Anyways, it's blue. I do not want the same color as my. I don't have the same bike that looks the same. My wife, that's not how we roll, but you have an interesting like and I do too on my. But you have an interesting like sticker, some kind of like. How did you? Frame protection so what was the brand that you use?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:It's ground keep, grounds keeper, ground keeper, customs, Okay.
Dane:Yeah.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:They have all kinds of different designs.
Dane:You can. You can go pick the colors right, you can go. I think they have this custom one. I've been on the website.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:It's fun were the same as my frame. Okay, and it looks like paint until you get close yeah, I didn't.
Josh:I mean, I thought honestly, when I first saw it I thought that bike had been custom painted.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, yeah well, he sometimes I don't tell people they're like nice paint.
Dane:I was like thanks, yeah, that's because you're going by so many hours so, yeah, what's crazy is, every once in a while he'll be in the shop with sharon and somebody else will come with the same kit on their bike and oh, seriously, yeah, and then we take pictures of it.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:It's like Sharon has a twin somewhere. Yeah, yeah.
Dane:And what's scary is there's more than one that have happened in just our shop, so imagine all over the world.
Josh:I think maybe I'll just have it painted. I got a guy Typically is unique In town really.
Dane:Not in town, but he's the guy that does the custom pivots.
Josh:I almost want to just go to an artist. I want Jilly to do mine Like a street, or even have Jilly do it, or a street artist or something, just so that it's completely rando.
Dane:Yeah, it's kind of trendy to do that right now, oh shit.
Josh:Now you're making me not want to do it. I'm not punk rock anymore.
Dane:It's true, she's, ever she's. She sold a painting.
Dane:Did she really yeah, she sold it, she did an art project at school and then they display it at school. I gave her crap. She's she doesn't listen to this because we cuss. But uh, cause you won't let her. No, I won't let her. Um, she's 13, but I got to tell this story because it's one. I was a shitty dad when I did this. I didn't mean to do it this way, but she's telling me. She's like yeah, I sold it. And I'm like no way you sold it. And she's like yeah, and I'm like who'd you sell it to? And she's like this guy named Darren, or whatever his name is in my class and I'm like oh, oh, he's got a crush on you. And she's like what?
Josh:It's not your art, he's interested.
Derrick Kampfer:And Aaron sounds like a solid dude.
Dane:Yeah, and I was like. I was like I didn't mean to say that her art wasn't worth it, because it is Her art's good, she's really good. But when I heard it was some boy in her class that wants to buy it, I was like, oh yeah, this is a player. Jilly's is a is a attractive young lady. She's going to grow up to be a very attractive woman. Yes, yeah so. But it wasn't like her teacher's husband wanted it or her um teacher's best friend, or you know. It wasn't somebody, you know, it was like some kid in her class. I'm like, oh yeah, he's got a crush.
Derrick Kampfer:As a kid that was a loser in high school. I'm just saying, who would you rather want interested in your daughter? The jock that thinks he's the shit and is going to treat her like crap? Hell no. Or the kid that doesn't?
Josh:He's showing interest in what she's interested in. He wants to buy her painting to make her. He just fucking likes the painting.
Derrick Kampfer:It's possible. Yeah, we're just a big painting guy. Yeah, he's like that's badass.
Josh:I want to get the one of the original jillies right from the beginning. Right, this will be.
Dane:he knows this will actually be the second drawing that she sold, because she actually we were at a dinner party hanging out at a friend's house because she was bored, cause it's adult talk, and one of the other people that were there our friend's friend that was was at this dinner party saw it and she's like that is amazing and she gave her 20 bucks on the spot for it.
Josh:And this is awesome. Yeah, that's inspiring. Yeah, so if I just give her a couple words as like motivation or like inspiration, could she like if I went to her and said fishnet armor as like motivation or like inspiration? Could she like if I went to her and said fishnet armor, could she?
Dane:actually we looked up a technique for that, for a fishnet armor. Yeah, yeah, there's a technique to give, to give your um, to give your frame a fishnet carbon look. Yeah, you use like a fishnet cross hatching, yeah, to do the painting cross hatching.
Dane:That's what it's called cross hatching yeah, to do the painting, cross hatching, that's what it's called. Yeah, yeah, and it gives it a carbon fiber look. And then so you do it, I think you do it and you shift it one one over, and then you do it again and it gives it a carbon look, and then you clear coat it looks like you have carbon so we were actually researching paint techniques and that was one of them.
Josh:It blew up in your face, yeah yeah, I want to know how you knew what crosshatching was.
Derrick Kampfer:Maybe he's painting. I was a loser in high school. I spent a lot of time with art.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, it was a vibe.
Derrick Kampfer:But at the same time, when you look back at that, who's more fulfilled, right? If you could give 15-year-old yourself advice, what would you say? Would you say to your girls? Or look for fulfillment.
Dane:Do your fucking homework, dude. I wish I would have done my homework.
Josh:I would say change your diet.
Derrick Kampfer:Hey, I'm a deep guy.
Dane:It is what it is. That's a good question, Mike. What would you do?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:If I could talk to 15 year old me first, of all I'd have to get him to be able to talk to me because I was terribly shy.
Josh:Okay, all right okay, all right, and look at you now you're on the podcast. Yeah, you might talk to people for a living.
Dane:You do up and for you're like doing public speaking every day. Yeah, yeah. So what would you do? Just talk to people, or I would tell him to believe in yourself more yeah, yeah he didn't that's super deep and I feel like not specific and he wouldn't know what to do with that.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:No, I don't think he would.
Josh:He's like opening up, and you're like, yeah, your answer sucks. What are you going to?
Dane:do You're going to be like?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:hey, young Mike you just need to be better and then walk away. That's not going to be helpful. Don't be a chicken shit and ask her out.
Dane:I would have told my 15-year-old, that is really great advice I would have told my 15 year old invest in Microsoft or Apple. Exactly.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Yeah, and that actually happened. I was working up to ask her to go to the prom and I gave her to ride to school every day. She told me one day of the day I was going to ask her to go to prom that she had a date.
Josh:Oh yeah, Because it took me so long to work up to it. I would have told myself to believe in myself less.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:That's actually really good advice too.
Josh:Check your ego, motherfucker, You're not as good as you think you are. I feel like I tell Turner that all the time.
Dane:Cocky little bastard.
Josh:He's got a lot of confidence, man, he does he cocky little bastard.
Dane:He's got a lot of confidence. Man he does, he is. He's basically got the entire family's confidence bottled up fake it until you make it, man.
Josh:Yeah, yeah, he'll be successful.
Derrick Kampfer:He'll be successful just because of that he's gonna be a corporate raider yeah, he's gonna have more money than all of us, kind of what I do just start calling him gordon gecko, it's true, it's true, he's gonna have like swimming pools and helicopters and and we're going to be like, hey, can you help us with our mortgage.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:He's like your little bike shop is cute Dad, and he's going to be like you remember when you made me wash the dishes?
Josh:No, this has been a great conversation. We set out to talk about the Sedona Mountain Bike Festival, of which we have said fuck all Nothing about it, nothing about it.
Derrick Kampfer:It's awesome, except Nothing about it.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Nothing about it. It's awesome, except that it's snowing. It's snowing, all right.
Josh:We promise we'll bring you more episodes that talk more about the Mountain Bike Festival, which appears to be really awesome.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:We're stoked.
Josh:We're going to talk to a lot of people, get some riding in. But I think we've come to a natural conclusion here and I'd like to ask our friends Mike and Derek if they have any last words for our listeners. Start with you, Mike. You got any last words?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Do they have to be profound?
Dane:Yes, why don't you just tell them to believe in themselves.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Okay, and don't listen to Dane when he's being sarcastic. Anything I do not. I've had a great time. This has been fun.
Josh:Are you going to be okay with the baby foot?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I'm a lot of good yeah, I believe in myself enough now that it won't bother me hey, if it fires me up you know what would
Dane:be great is if everybody went to sharon's instagram and just wrote baby feet, baby foot, yeah, baby foot, yeah. Let's see if that works, see if anyone doesn't write it on hers.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:They need to write it on e-mics no, no on hers.
Dane:I think that's better Well she'll get pissed.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Why? Because she's got an attitude.
Dane:Yeah, that's true If you read what Sharon writes in her posts.
Josh:Yeah, it's coming from Grok on.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:Unhinged Mode. We should do that, we should totally do that.
Josh:You should make every one of her comments come right from Grok I don't know what this is, but I don't like it. All right, I don't know what this is, but I don't like. It All right, how about you, Derek, anything profound to share with our listeners?
Derrick Kampfer:Not necessarily profound, but I was just having this conversation today. It's kind of counter-thought. However you want to say, it is that mountain biking seems like it would be a very snobby community because it's a big buy-in right. It's a lot of. For example, my Switchblade, I gotblade I gotta use, but I paid five grand for that.
Dane:Yeah, I work for the government.
Derrick Kampfer:I'm, I'm you know I'm in the military and five grand was a lot, you know, and by the way, thank you for your service, buddy.
Josh:Yeah, well, thank you for yours as well.
Derrick Kampfer:Appreciate that, man for sure and there is a big buy-in. But this is such I was gonna freeze my my butt off in a field, in a tent and my dude over here, jason edmunds, shout out who's a great guy, yeah shout out jason.
Josh:We tried to get jason to come out, but he was too shy he needs to believe in himself for sure, believe in yourself jason and just the open community.
Derrick Kampfer:that's why I love I last year was my first time at the mountain bike festival is it's. It's an awesome community and, to the reverse of that, a community that you think would be really open. Like the hunting, I'm a big bill hunter. I love bow hunting and shooting archery and it's my, my, I guess my alternate hobby is super snobby Like, if you're really, I wouldn't have known that if you're not wearing sick and like, just it's, it's.
Derrick Kampfer:It's a very snobby community, but like where you you mossy oak or? I'm a kill, a deer, whatever you run run what's?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:my grandpa killed 100 years in a red flannel shirt. You're sick. It don't mean anything. Question for you after.
Derrick Kampfer:Okay, for sure I I will nerd out just as hard on archery, but I think that a lot of people are intimidated by mountain biking because of the conversation that you're having. It is intimidating, but at the same time you have to have a level of trust. I don't know, you know. So you know what, dude, you just tell me what I need, right, because there might come a time when my fork blows out and it is an additional buy-in. That's $1,000 for a solid fork, let's say $500 to $1,000. But I love the mountain bike community, this conversation. The last thing I expected on a Friday night at 921 was to be in my very first podcast ever with a couple of chill dudes.
Josh:And baby foot Mike.
Derrick Kampfer:I want to close out with this One more thing how old are you?
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I'm 58.
Derrick Kampfer:This dude will smoke every single person in this house. I would say he would smoke 90% of people at this mountain.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:He's a good rider. I appreciate it.
Derrick Kampfer:He went on the ride in 50 a year and you're like, oh, keep up with me, you'll be able to. He was gone.
Mike "Babyfoot" Jones:I think, oh, that was rocket ship On rocket ship.
Derrick Kampfer:That shit did not go as fast as your rocket ship, but yeah, I would say I I appreciate you guys having me on. It was really cool, it's a great experience. And open up to regular writers you're right, regular writers are everything. So if I come into your shop and I don't know what I want, give me three categories to think about. Okay, instead of telling me what I want. This is what you should have, this is what you should know. Like maybe leave, think about these things, about how you ride, write some things down and then come, because it's a huge investment, to talk about suspension yeah, that is.
Dane:It's a lot of money. Yeah, I'd rather give you too much info than not not enough but everything in three men.
Josh:The human mind can handle threes. I love, love that, yeah, for sure.
Derrick Kampfer:I mean the three categories of nipple management.
Josh:When you came up with that, I was like you should. Oh, this is a man after my own heart right now, you should adapt those to suspension.
Dane:See if you can come up with that. Three categories of nipple management.
Josh:Here's the three key questions I have for you.
Derrick Kampfer:If you're in here talking about spending $1,500 to $2,000, I want you to leave for us for a week and think about these three things on your next ride Considering your bike is not a dangerous mess. Go for a few rides with these three things in mind and come back and let's have a conversation about DVO, rock shocks, fox whatever Right.
Dane:Yeah.
Derrick Kampfer:But yeah, I appreciate you guys. I mean, I was super cool.
Dane:Thanks man.
Josh:I do want to say that Mike rode with me at at a angel fire and I'm not fast and he stayed with me, helped me, coach me. It was awesome. So he can haul ass, but he stayed in and made me feel comfortable. I never felt uncomfortable.
Derrick Kampfer:It was great and I became a little bit better rider after that weekend riding with Mike and Jason over there. So appreciate you guys. Which goes to the community is man.
Josh:It's a great community. Yeah, all right guys. Thanks a lot, cheers.
