Exploring Neurodiversity with Jason Bean (Linkedin Live)

In this previous , Nikki and Ali talk to Jason Bean, founder of M-Path Consulting and IIoT Market Specialist at Pepperl+Fuchs Group.

Jason discusses working in various industries, his own experience with being neurodivergent, and the stigma behind individuals who fall under that.

Learn more about Harnessing Neurodiversity for Organizational Excellence at https://www.manufacturingpath.com/

Transcript

  Hello, and welcome to another live episode of Automation Ladies. There should be more than one of us ladies here today. I think Ali's on the way, but until then, um, as you guys know, if you've seen us before, the promise with Automation Ladies is that you get at least one of us and you got one. And we got our wonderful guest, Mr.

Jason Bean with us today. Jason, how are you? Not too bad. How are you doing Nikki? Pretty good. Uh, it is, uh, We, well, we were just discussing this earlier. I probably shouldn't say this live, but I, uh, have not adjusted my clocks due to daylight savings. So I didn't realize that that happened this weekend.

I've been automatically waking up at the right time, thankfully. But then whenever I look at the clock, I somehow have one less hour than I thought. Um, and that is kind of the pervasive feeling for me this week. Um, as I've also been sick earlier this week, my kids have been sick, uh, and it's dreary out, right?

It is here, but that's for sure. Hey, Allie.  Hi. Allie.  Glad you're here. You guys are talking about it being dreary. I'm in Seattle, so I don't want to hear about it.  Yeah Uh, you guys don't get any rain out there hawaii I'm, also from hawaii and I lived in phoenix for a while, which is like There's so much sun there that it's in places that you don't even want it to be Um, and then I moved to yes, seattle and now I just miss it deeply Everyone needs to take their vitamin d supplements.

That's like a really important thing It doesn't really matter where you live because some people just don't get enough sun. Maybe you don't go out enough or you naturally don't you know, whatever like  And it's a huge Uh, what is it? Seasonal Seasonal affective disorder, right?  Yeah, there's that's that's real and I I could tell when I was younger that like My grades were always horrible in the winter time um because Like when especially when when I went to college  um, yeah, like Winter quarter was when my grades would just dip down.

I didn't want to get out of bed I didn't want to go to class. I didn't want to You Due life because it was too hard and I just remember that like the amount of Sun that we encounter  Changes everything about our life, which is like really scary So you have to like take account of like are you getting enough Sun?

And if not, like are you taking supplements for that because our bodies have to see the Sun  We're not meant to live in a cage. Uh, okay.  We'll challenge you on that, man. I don't know if you've been living in, uh, Baytown or wherever you're at. He's in Texas.  There's plenty of sun. He's down by, um, You'll never have a sun problem, so you'll never understand.

Right. I was about to say, my dad built himself a tanning bed for him and my mom, um, when they were younger. Growing up in Iceland, we also have a problem with it being dark in the wintertime. Very dark. Amen. Amen. Yeah, well, I'm up in Canada, so I understand dark and winter. Where in Canada are you, Jason? Uh, so right now I'm  southwest part, so about an hour drive southwest of Toronto.

Uh, but where I grew up was up in the James Bay frontier area. So up in like real Northern Ontario where, you know, I've seen snow in July. So  for me, this is one South.  Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Baytown Beaumont. I mixed these up. I knew that. Thanks, Scott.  I mean, it's not a  part of Texas. I'm glad you're glad things are sunny over there in Georgia.

Yeah, and I guess everybody was in Georgia. This next have you been to Modex before Jason? No, I have never been to Modex. Me neither. Me neither. We should go. I think we'll go next year. Yeah, especially now that we're teaming up with Andrea and a Hava, uh,  There, there will be a whole lot more relevant reasons for us to be at a logistics  related show.

I just always, I don't know. I guess my experience has been in discrete manufacturing, not logistics operations. But everything is really like, converging right? These, these technologies are being used in both places. So, um, it's not. Irrelevant to me anymore, especially also because I work with a lot of distributors with a lot of warehousing, but you just can't be in all the places at all at all times.

Um, I'm actually right now weighing whether I might do a quick trip to San Jose next week. Or in videos, GPU conference, um. I probably I've  already registered for that for the remote attendance. So, oh, okay. Okay. Well, maybe I'll join you remotely or you might see me posting. Um.  They're in person. Well, we'll see how daring I get with last minute travel plans.

Andrea says yes. Modix was the place to be this week. That's for sure. If any of you else, uh, anybody else is here in the audience and you were at Modix, um, please tell us about it. And if you weren't say, hi, anyway, and tell us where you are and whether you think sad is a real thing or not. Um, I will stay on the topic of vitamin D before we move on to, uh, automation related, maybe, or industry, whatever. 

Stuff that we normally like to talk about.  Lack of vitamin D is now has shown to be a potential, um,  linked to  multiple sclerosis. So, as a potential cost,  so I have a cousin that is in his early 20s.  Diagnosed with that, and, uh. It's possible that lack of vitamin D, uh. Was one of the contributing factors. So please people get outside or find a way to get your vitamin D.

And if you're in a dreary dark place, um, they have supplements and stuff for that. Now,  yeah.  Or if you just even live in a  sunny place, but you spend all your time indoors, cause you're a gamer or like, you just don't go outside. Like that's also a problem. So like, you need to take care of yourself.  Right.

He's he's a gamer and, uh, I know his mom.  Thinking that he she wished that she would have made him go outside more and stuff. Um, And so I've always been thinking about that with my kids to make sure that they get there Vitamin D. So now my kids ask me whenever we do something, what vitamin does that have? 

Like something's like, right? And don't give you any vitamins, any particular vitamins. No,  that's adorable.  So, uh, Jason, do you want to tell us a little bit about for those people in the audience or listening to this, it's going to be an audio recording and come out at the podcast at some point as well. Um, give a little introduction to yourself and kind of your background and how you got to be in.

Uh, let's let's stick to kind of your day job.  For now, um, until we keep talking about everything else that you're doing, but as it relates to automation and industry 4. 0, and all that stuff, what's been your path. Uh, to get to where you are. All right. So.  Currently, my day job is, uh, the market specialist for pepper and folks, uh, factory automation division. 

So, part of that is educating our customers.  Customers on what digital transformation is and also educating the PNF.  Team on how to talk to their clients about it as well.  My path getting here.  Well, that was that was an interesting 1.  So, when I said earlier, I grew up in, like, the James Bay frontier, so I grew up in a small pulp and paper.

Milltown. Okay. Northern Ontario boat. 6, 000 people population  while 1 horse town, you know, is the paper mill and that was it.  Um,  so I worked at that paper mill.  Part time to put myself through college, um,  for me, you know, that was going about a 4 hour drive south to, um, a  local college called, um, Canada college where I studied robotics. 

Very cool.  And from there, I went another 4 hours south to Toronto and started working for IBM.  Uh, when I finished that, um.  I, at that point, worked for Celestica, which was their manufacturing arm.  Um, 3 months after I started, they decided to sell off their manufacturing divisions.  So,  I ended up staying with them for about a year and a half. 

Um,  I started off right on, on the production floor, right off on the SMT line as just a factory worker,  uh,  Ended up on a job redesign committee when they got, uh, sold off, uh, where we restructured the entire business unit.  So, we looked at how employees were hired. We looked at how they were trained. We looked at how production was scheduled, how raw materials were purchased, um. 

Line layout, shipping, QA, we looked at the entire process for about a full year.  I  love that job. I love doing that whole process of looking at an entire.  System and how it worked from  from the technical perspective to the business, the business perspective.  Yeah, that's a pretty unique job or position to be able to be in.

I mean, a lot of things converging. They're just, you know, timing, right place, right time. Right. Because how do you even find a job that lets you do that kind of thing? Yeah. And like, that was fresh out of school. Yeah, that's crazy.  Sounds like a really stressful job, but like, you kind of like that. It sounds like. 

Yeah, I definitely do. I, I, I like to be overloaded. Yeah, I was about to say anybody that comes here and we talk about day job and then your other thing is you are the type of person that likes to take on a challenge. I don't think that that's, uh, there's any toys about that. Um.  Then you had the electric, like, uh, the electronic market crash in the 90s there. 

Um, so I lost that job.  Couldn't find.  A job in manufacturing at that time, so I ended up getting a, uh, getting into, uh.  Industrial construction and maintenance electrician,  um, did my apprenticeship.  Got my license, uh, due to my. Controls background with robotics and that I very quickly transitioned into.  Uh, leading  leading teams on, you know, doing installs that, you know, Toyota, Ford, GM, um. 

Did a lot of work with Coca Cola, the brewery facilities. Uh, so I started becoming like the controls guy in the electrical company that would do all the commissioning, do the programming,  um, did that for.  A number of years until I had an accident that took me out of work for 7 years. Oh, wow.  Uh, for 7 years, I could not use my arms at all. 

No kidding. I could not feed myself. I could not dress myself.  Was it a situation where you knew that you would be able to regain that mobility back? Or was it possible that you would,  you know, that that would  not improve? I saw a number of specialists and a lot of them said I would never get full mobility back.

Uh, but I'm a stubborn.  Person, yeah, and I have 100 percent mobility back.  Well, it goes to show don't take no for an answer. Right?  Throughout that time, that period, I. Rather than doing nothing, I threw myself back into education. Okay, um,  I took courses on management engineering, mechanical engineering, automotive engineering, organizational behavior, PMP.

Manufacturing leadership.  Went back and also got an electrical engineering technologist, 3 year diploma in process control.  When I got back out to work, I ended up going to, um.  A Rockwell distributor as their motion specialist. Okay. Um, so I spent a couple of years as a motion specialist, helping, uh, machine builders design and size their servo systems  from  yeah, that was a fun 2 years. 

Um,  then from there, I went to purple and folks as an account manager, and then I think within about a year and a half, 2 years.  I transitioned into being the digital transformation  specialist because I had a wide breadth of knowledge across multiple  industries. So I could see how the pieces fit together.

Yeah. Yeah. Because that's kind of again. I don't know if this is rare or not, I don't know everybody in the industry, but to have somebody that's worked across robotics, um, electrical, uh, food and food and Bev pulp and paper automotive. Uh, you know, sizing, like, these are all, yeah, these are all skills that, like, put together.

You have a unit, you have yourself a bit of a unicorn, right?  Very cool.  And then, you know, I also decided I need to start my own company on the side. Because I, yeah, let's talk about that.  When did that happen? And what pushed you to, was it an easy decision or was it something that you thought about for a long time before you pulled the trigger and actually did it?

Um,  so I'm, let's just say I'm not the first time entrepreneur.  Before I got  injured, I was actually getting my master electrician's license. So I was going to open up my own, uh, electrical controls company. Okay.  Um,  I had a number of contracts signed with some tier 1 manufacturers and then I got injured. I couldn't work.

So that kind of.  You know,  went away and disappeared.  Um,  but what happened is, uh.  I was speaking at IME South. The 1st year IME South was running.  And there was a panel on diversity, equity and inclusion.  And they talked about everything you hear in diversity, equity and inclusion. 

I found out when I went back to university for management engineering, um.  That I was autistic, uh, 1 of the professors noticed there was something different about the way that I learned.  In class, I always had the right answer when it was like a verbal lecture, but. When it came to written tests and all that, she was like, going, it's.

The result is she says it's a different person says that these don't match. Yeah. Right. So she asked if I'd ever had a learning disability assessment and never did. So  at 37, I found out I was autistic ADHD, and I had dyslexia 37. Nice. Right. Um, but so  I asked, uh, the panel is they were talking about everything else.

And I said, well, what about people that are autistic? Right. You know,  what are people doing to address this? Yeah, well,  nobody on the panel really  knew anything about it. Right. So, so when I left there, it was, I kind of made the decision. I said, you know what? I'm going to start my own  company and educate the  people in the industry about. 

Autism, because autistic individuals go into engineering fields. Uh, twice the rate of the neurotypicals. Oh, that's really interesting. It was probably high, but twice the rate that's actually pretty. That's higher than I expected, I think it is, um. But they have an 80 percent unemployment rate. They don't get along with their.

Peers in the business, because they can't. Or it's difficult, right, for them to.  Hold back the truth because the truth hurts right and there is no way for them to be like Look like you suck. And these are the reasons that you suck and so like, uh, by the way, like recently like I  Met someone and I asked them like are you neurodivergent and he was offended?

and Like I would like to like help, you know be on the side of like  I think And I've been I've been  uh, uh, what is it a screen for adhd and she's like no you just run high But I don't think that I like have control of like the channels in my head even Um, and I believe that like really smart people that i've met in my life like  um have this thing going on where they don't have full control of how amazing their brains are, even though they can use them to do incredible, incredible stuff.

Um, then they struggle with these other parts where it's just like, how do you not make other people angry?  Or how do you not say something that was like a little bit too blunt and like now everyone's mad at you Um, and that's like a really common thing uh with engineers even and like I wonder how much of that is the fact that like because we say that engineers are Not very good at sales and they're not really good with people And like I wonder how much of that is just like the fact that like engineers are just really You  Analytical, and so are the people that have neurodivergence. 

Um, and so there is a, what is it, correlation doesn't, uh, equal causation, but like, there's something going on here where, like, the people that struggle, um, yeah, to, like, keep all their thoughts are just incredibly brilliant people. Um, that's actually kind of neat. And, um, yeah, I wish, I wish we could.  Except together that uh, neurodivergence should not be something that's considered a like, uh, what is it a diss?

I wasn't I wasn't trying to come after them and be like, oh, there's something wrong with you I was trying to say that like I understand that like you don't work like the rest of us do and so like You know acknowledgement of that is not a bad thing um, but like how how have you seen the like evolution of that term because  Yeah, now I've seen that term could be considered a negative term and I don't think it should be at all Um, but um, yeah  The term generally is accepted negatively in in in my experience and people that I talk which sucks  Yeah, which is it's terrible.

Um  We have a stereotype around what  what what this means  um,  and we don't realize that You We're surrounded  by these individuals daily and we don't notice because  most.  You know, are like me or.  Similar, right? They're capable of functioning day to day.  It's just, you know, they have a few unique challenges that make it difficult for them to. 

Function in certain situations,  right? You know, more social ones, right? Yeah, it's more social like.  That's why when I met you guys, I said, you know, I, I, I'm an a hole.  A lot of people say that I'm,  I'm a really nice guy, but then when they get to know me and then they realize that I don't have that filter  on about  what, when something, when I, when I see something wrong, I call it  right.

And it's beautiful, but yes, people are upset. Cause they're like, why would you say that? I wouldn't say that. It's like, yeah, because you work a different way. Like you've accepted what. You think is acceptable to say and people that are neurodivergent are not going to filter that back They're going to say like you should have done this better And now everyone's angry  But like that's the truth.

The truth is you could have done that better, but like they don't have that. What is it delivering? So the deli so they get in all this trouble and it's so unfair because they are Amazing people literally just trying to do the right thing  It's, um, their, their, their biggest challenge is social. And the 1st thing that they got to face in a job is a, is a social interview. 

Yeah, so most of them don't even make it through the interview process.  That's really sucky. That's not fair.  You know, and then the other part is the social political environment within the workplace. I've talked to so many who  get taken advantage of. In the workplace, because they don't see the underlying. 

Manipulation from other employees,  I never thought about that.  Right? So, I've talked to some companies that are like, going, oh, that doesn't happen in our company. And then I talked to their employees and it's like going.  Yeah, that happens. 100%.  Especially like taking their ideas, right? Cause like they have good ideas, so, and they can't implement them themselves.

So why not steal their ideas? And that's actually, I could see very easy. Uh,  never heard the term neurodivergent until now, Googling. Okay. So, so  that's a really good point. And. No, no, I'm just really happy that we did this live because like this is enough of an impact  if there's a person out there in our circle in our industry that doesn't know what this means and now is going to Google it and know something about it.

Amen. Fantastic. Thank you, Scott, for telling us. And maybe, uh, not to get free consulting out of you.  Jason, but do you want to tell us a little bit about some of the things that you have learned or can explain about this since you, like, embarked on this project? Doing something about this, um, can you explain what neurodivergent is to those of us that don't know, um, to supplement Googling that may be happening.

So neurodivergent is a broader base term for it. So, it encompasses people with autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia. So, it's basically people whose brains are wired different than the neurotypical.  Populous. Okay. So the neurotypical is, is the rest of us. Neurotypical is the rest of society in the way that the brain normally forms.

Gotcha. A neurotypical doesn't have issues normally with other people because we like figure that out way easier. Oh, yeah. Neurotypical people, um, learn to socialize at a very young age through mirrors. Okay.  People that are neurodivergent, particularly with autism, they lack that mirroring ability most of the time.

Yep. So, for them, it's almost like watching a play that's going on. And they don't speak the language, so they're trying to figure out what's going on and they have no idea what's. They, they, they don't understand the script. They don't understand.  Because it's a weird script. Why would you not just tell the truth? 

Why wouldn't you just be like, Hey, look, this is messing up this, so let's talk about that. But it's like, well, you know, that person has family members that are related to some other political party. And like, that's a huge thing. Didn't give a shit about political parties. Like, they're like, well, but like, how do you solve the problem?

And they're amazing at solving problems, but. Not socially.  Oh, they're most neurotypical that I've met have phenomenal problem solving skills. Yes, because they're not bound. Yes, by the societal norms,  very different perspectives.  Right,  you know, 1 of these people in your corporations. Oh, yeah. On, on the people that like understand, you know, people, salespeople, uh, marketing people, people that are working on like the human psyche as part of your business, those people need to see these guys be like, Hey, you know, a lot of people will tell me that I don't appear autistic because I'm more social. 

Yeah. Um, but then again, it comes down to the, once they get to know me, and then they notice all the social. Full pause that I committed, and it's like going, yeah, yeah, no, we don't want to talk to you anymore.  I'm used to getting ostracized by communities. It's become something I've grown used to and. I accept it, but if I can somehow use that.

To help bring awareness in and address the issue.  I'll keep pushing for it. Um, you know, so one of my unique traits is pattern recognition, right? Okay.  So when it comes to geometrical patterns, I think in shapes. I can look at a mechanical drawing and I can actually build it in my brain and watch it entirely work and find out where all the flaws are. 

I don't need to know the math to do it. I can actually build it  and visualize the whole process running in my brain. Thank you.  Which is  quite unique for,  you know. That is not neurotypical.  No. No, that's, that's not a typical way in which people think, you know. It's a superpower and we need to start seeing it that way. 

You know, I  suffer from face blindness. I don't recognize people that I know from their face until I actually assign a geometric shape to them. Oh, you assign a geometric shape. That's really, that's really interesting. But yeah, that came across as a faux pas, right? Like, oh, you just don't care about me enough to remember my name.

Yeah, they'll be mad at you. They'll just be like, oh, you don't care about society. It's like, yes, I do. I just have a way easier time, like, looking at math. Sorry. I've been married for 25 years and I still couldn't pick my wife out of a crowd.  Okay, that's bad.  Yeah, now that understanding the reason it is a very different thing to hear after 25 years.

I can't pick my wife's face out of a crowd.  With the preceding information that we got, that makes a lot of sense, but, like, not being aware. Of the way that you actually think differently, you saying that sentence asshole territory right away.  Yeah.  Right.  Which is not fair, but yeah. No, you're immediately labeled.

You're like you tell the truth. You have no tact. You're mean and and you're an asshole  You know I it bothers me when people wear shirts with patterns on it  Because my brain is so attracted to patterns  That if there's some sort of pattern i'm so focused on trying to unravel that pattern So, what do you think about Ariat shirts?

Because those are beautiful, like, Texas shirts, like, but I bet that they piss you off and, like, that's so funny.  So, hey, now that you just gave me a tip, not that this will ever happen, but if I ever enter any kind of competitive situation with you,  I know what I'm wearing. I do. We're in trouble with the pattern because it'll distract me enough that I have to try to figure out, I have to solve the pattern.

See, these are things like basic things that and of course, like you not all neuro, um, divergent people have the same divergence, right? So like somebody else with, you know, similar, uh, what what people would call like, Oh, you're somebody that has autism. And that's a huge spectrum, right? What that actually means.

And I think I'm sure most people have some things in common, but it can present in a lot of different ways. Right? So, like, it's not fair to say that all neuro divergent people have anything in common. To do with patterns or not patterns, right? Is it kind of each individual has a different way of working?

Each individual has a different way. Um,  and I believe there was a psychologist that came out and said, if you met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person,  right? Because it,  it is a spectrum. So  each one's going to have different strengths and different weaknesses. And everybody who's neurotypical  has some of those traits  In their personality, it's just whether or not those traits are enough to hinder. 

Their ability to function in some way.  Right? So, most autistic individuals, you know, they have something that hinders their ability to function.  I get, I get sensory overload quite easy.  So, when areas are very busy, very noisy, and I can't find a pattern to walk on to.  It become my stress level shoot through the  trade show, right? 

Yeah. If you notice at a trade show, I walk around a lot.  Because that action of walking gives me a pattern that I can focus on within my. Oh, okay.  Right so, if I have to stand still at a trade show, I can't stay there for too long because I become very overwhelmed because my, my. Brain just goes into overload. 

I'll never.  Be a mechanic. Because I can't touch oils. Oh, okay.  My psychological reaction to oils with the psychiatrist that diagnosed me said it's the same psychological reaction that she sees in rape victims. Oh my goodness, that's very strong. Bam. So I cannot  handle, touch oils at all. Okay, well, that's a, that's an acceptable.

I will, I will never, I will never work on a car. I will never touch,  be a mechanic at all.  What about cooking?  I, I can cook, but I don't touch the butter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See, I have, I have a,  I don't know, it's never, it's not a diagnosed thing and it's, it's in no way comparable, but I have a kind of a phobia of wet paper. 

I've gotten better with it over the years. You can't handle it. But I really, I used to be able, like, if you, if we go out to lunch and you would put your, you know, cold glass of water on a napkin. And it starts condensating and the napkin gets wet. Like I have a really hard time eating with that around me Um, so I can only imagine like my level of distress with wet paper Is probably here compared to your level of distress with oil.

But yeah, I I I That's crazy. Um, like I i've gotten a lot better  With oil because i've realized  It's a psychological Yeah Reaction and so I I can understand  Why I do it. So I work on trying to overcome that. I think once, you know, I mean, the knowledge helps you deal with things, right, you can kind of rash, you come up with a plan, you know, what's going on.

I love that you're willing to share it too. Yeah. Why it's so important to get this knowledge out there so that people, any people that work with,  you know, people with  these differences can learn to.  Appreciate their colleagues traits rather than maybe mistakenly thinking that they're just being assholes. 

But then, secondly, really, it's it's companies, right? That can very much benefit. From understanding how to identify and work with their neurodivergent employees, right? Or even bring them in and  most of the accommodations for neurodivergent employee cost less than 500. Okay,  so it's really not a cost. It's mostly just upside. 

Yeah, it's it really is just understanding  the challenges that they face and removing those barriers, um, you know, most  particularly on the autism.  Are very literal in their understanding, whether it's spoken or written, you know, they don't pick up the subtext, right? I've actually learned that. Um, I have.

So 1 of my household members, my brother in law, um, who's been my roommate for over 10 years is also autistic and dyslexic and has a D. S. G.  But unfortunately, he didn't get, you know, into a career ever because even in high school, he was putting like special ed, uh, and he wasn't. Support it. Well, he, you know, it was just kind of like, hey, you're different.

You can't really do things like,  oh, when I, when I was growing up, I was told I would never graduate high school and I'd be lucky to hold a minimum weight. Yeah.  And, and I will have certain strengths, like, to learn or a recipe or something to follow. He will. Become the most diligent follower of that process and be able to do it repeatedly.

And, you know, consistently and on time, but you can't say, you know, accomplish this without a process.  But that's again, he's very, you know, like you said, you met 1 of them, you met 1 of them, right?  I'm sure there's people with all kinds of different skills. Um.  Oh, yeah, there's, uh, they  within  that community range from. 

Art to science to math to, you know, their, their, their interests are just as diverse as everybody else's. Is there a test that you guys or you guys, I, I hope this is not offensive. you people, whatever I say, I'm, I'm learning. If I make a booboo, please call me out on it. But like, is there a test that you can take that kind of tells you  what your,  you know, things are like you said she tested the oil thing and gave you some, you know. 

Yeah. Well, so there, there's, there's, uh, an entire psychological assessment you have to go through and it's not true. Okay.  Right. Um, it's, it's not one day. It's multiple days. You go in, you get tested on a bunch of different things. Uh, you have a number of interviews with a licensed trained psychologist that specializes in this area. 

Right.  So,  you know, that my pattern recognition when they, when they tested that I scored in the 98th percentile, which means only 2 percent of the world's population's better at pattern recognition than,  you know,  But then my reading, my, my reading  is down in like, I think the 36th percentile.  It takes me, you know, twice, three times as long to read a piece of text of a normal. 

Since the beginning, it like took really long, but like, I think it's really important that like, if we can accomplish one thing today, it's that  can we, can we explain to people how they can notice. Whether or not they're neurodivergent, because I feel like there's even people already in this thread that they're like, I've never heard of that, and I'm not gonna call anyone out.

But like, they are neurodivergent themselves and like, they don't wanna talk about, oh, there there are.  The thing I've noticed is a lot of neurodivergent individuals  that are really aware of how it presents in themselves are very good at picking it up in other people. Mm-Hmm.  , um.  I really  am cautious about people self diagnosing themselves.

Because I've encountered far too many who have self diagnosed and it's like. And then I meet them and I start talking to them and I start coaching them and it's like going.  No, you're. Really not you just either a lack discipline, or you're looking for a scale. It can be a crutch. Right? If people like, oh, I have that now.

It's like the. The reason for all the bad stuff that I have,  let's just blame it on that.  Yeah, it's they're looking for something to blame for a reason to justify their. Their behavior,  right? Um. You really have to have something that really impacts your ability to really.  I'm not a psychologist trained in  picking up.

I just got, you know, close to 50 years of living with it.  Um, so I know how I know what I face and I'm always learning something new about how to address my issues,  but you know, one of the biggest things I think employers gain from it is once  they  learn is the improvement in communication within the organization. 

Because if you understand that  Your employees that are neurodivergent is particularly on the autism spectrum interpret things literally  Every time you communicate you have to be crystal clear as to exactly what you've done And it improves the communication across the entire organization  I would say that uh Spending that time to create that clarity is worth it because the people That at least that i've worked with You  That I believe are neurodivergent whether they admit it or not Um are brilliant people that have amazing ability to contribute um  I think that's the biggest thing is just like people are not assumed to be able to contribute if they're neurodivergent and they actually can contribute in levels that are further than their non  Neurodivergent counterparts um, and so like these people I don't want to say you people but like you people are so brilliant and  Not using them and not understanding them is actually going to hurt your company Uh, and I want that to be like a message which is just like if you don't care  about the struggles of neurodivergent people you're missing out on a piece of the population that is  Literally genius compared to us Um, and I, I consider myself a pretty smart person, but I'm not  The level of intelligence that I've seen these neurodivergent people produce.

I'm like, oh my God, like, how do you know that?  Um, it's incredible. I'm so impressed. It's  not that their intelligence is any higher. It's, it's the different thought process.  It's, it's their way that they approach it. And they don't need to focus on the things I focus on making people not angry uh trying to figure out how to like Produce peace or like a negotiation between like me and like aligning myself with another company like I I worry about like the feelings that different people have like and there's just all these neurodivergent people just being like so true to the facts and that is Uh, what is it?

It's there's nothing  It's invaluable the fact that like they are uh They're not gonna lie. There is no there's no way they actually Maybe that's why they were created by god was like god was like, okay There's all these sales people and they're gonna lie But then there's all these like neurodivergent people who can't lie, even if they wanted to  Neurodivergent can lie  Okay  It really becomes a learned survival method.

That's a good thing to note, Tate.  But their, their lies are, the ones that I've encountered,  are so intricately designed  that they believe the lie to be true.  So those little white lies tend  to struggle with those, but they have, the ones that I've met that,  that actually have learned to lie, are very, very. 

So, yeah, you can tell that they're lying. I've built an entire narrative. I don't like to use it because I don't think, um,  Sheldon's not, from Big Bang Theory, is not really a good example of somebody that's neurodivergent.  But,  you know, there's an episode when he's asked to lie and he has to create a whole story around the lie  You know, that's kind of how neurodivergence that I've encountered that lie.

Do they create this whole story and narrative about it? Speaking of Big Bang Theory and I've thought a couple times in the conversation to, um, Temple Grandin movie. I've heard interviews with her, seen the movie, and a couple of other like TV shows. Are there any examples in popular culture that you could recommend that you would say, hey, watch, if you watch this, there's actually some real nuggets to be learned, or are they all kind of, from your point of view, misrepresenting?

There's a lot of  misrepresentative. Um,  media has really used NeuroDivergent as the Comic comic relief crush of shows,  right? You know, there are some snippets of truth in there. Um,  like atypical was.  Pretty decent, uh, was it the fabulous doctor.  Who or something like that was, I think it was like, oh, yeah, the, uh, the attorney. 

Yeah,  you know,  the thing is, is.  And, and I get it. It makes great comedic material when you take those things and you  make them blatantly obvious,  but it's done a such a disservice to  majority of the people that. Are neurodivergent because they're not that that that level of extremity is actually small.

Yeah. Yeah. Those are the outlier cases. And  those are the outlier cases. Obviously, it wouldn't make great television to talk about somebody that is just slightly different, right? Or to show. Yeah, makes sense. So, are there any resources, um, that you would recommend for those of us that maybe don't have a reason to seek consulting just yet, but are just curious and want to be more informed, more well informed on the subject from the resources out there?

Really? I find very poor. Yeah.  Most of the resources that exist out there  are not actually developed.  By people that are neuro diverse.  Most of the stuff out there has been developed by. You know, parents, grandparents, people from the outside looking in,  um,  there is a,  you know, there, there, there are a few, um, neurodivergent individuals on YouTube that you can look up and they'll give you a nice kind of  look from their perspective.

But when you start watching them and you, if you watch enough of them, you realize.  They really are very different. Yeah, right. Because everybody has their own set of things that are different from the norm. And so bucketing them together doesn't really help a whole lot. No, it doesn't really work and that's part of the problem as to why there's not a lot of, um. 

Solutions out there to the problem, because  those that are like myself that are active. Most of them are pushing from their perspective and the accommodations that they need  and getting the neurodivergent community to actually. Come together and say, hey, look, these are our common commonalities that we need addressed with an employment. 

Is very difficult,  you know, I've reached out to a few of them that are in other countries and.  They've not wanted to work with me because  they wanted to, you know, one of the accommodations to accommodate for all their challenges. And rather than trying to find, you know, the common challenges.  So,  we talk, I talk about this sometimes in tech or it's just like, I feel like we're kind of getting to a point where mass personalization is more feasible.

Right. We're seeing it more in manufacturing, um, in communications, all kinds of things, right? We can use a I or these different tools to tailor things to individuals rather than having to back in the day. We had to rely on things like, you know, the, the average male body at age 40  and base everything off of that.

Just because we didn't have the fidelity of information, the infrastructure to support anything, but very kind of basic streamlined averages.  Is there in  do you think, Jason, in this area is there.  Hope that these types of technological advancements open some doors to the more mass understanding of the personalized needs of neurodivergent individuals.

Or is that like, just me taking 1 thing from over here and 1 thing over here and smashing them together and it makes part of what I've had to do for the last year with, uh, my, my day job is actually look at chat GPT and look at it ethically. And how do we use it within. The organization.  Here's the great thing about chat GPT.

It's a phenomenal tool  for those that are neurodivergent  because when it gives an answer, it is clear and concise and it's answer. Usually. Yeah,  I've used it multiple times when people would send me something and it's like, going, I'm trying to understand what they're saying. I'll drop it in there and it's like going, oh, that's what they mean. 

Right. You know,  I think it's going chat GPT is.  Within organizations, it's really has potential to  improve communication and make things a lot more accessible.  Right. Um, I think it's going to be a phenomenal tool for training people. Yeah, that's promising.  Right. You know, I, I learned differently. I struggle within the standard classroom setting.

I've failed so many classes. It's unbelievable.  But I can sit there with chat GPT and I can have it start teaching me stuff and then I can validate whether the information it's using is actually  accurate and I can learn at my pace with it well, because you can kind of train it to teach you right in the way that you. 

Respond well to yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. So in your work with empath, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing there who you're working with what you offer in if. You know, so that people that either are here or listen to this later. Uh, can make the connection either for themselves, their organization, or maybe someone that they know, if, if perhaps you could be of help. 

Um, so  I've well, 1 of the things I've done is I've developed a.  Training program that will take, you know, HR and managers through understanding what neurodiversity is. Um, and run them through some exercises and. And of that nature, um. I'll go in and I'll do talks with. With organizations to, and I'll just be an open book with them and say, you know, there's no question that's off the table.

Ask whatever you want.  About about my personal experience or about. You know, what I've seen from the number of, uh.  Neurodivergent students that I have counseled throughout the years, because I do a lot of coaching of of neurodivergence and post secondary.  Um.  So I, you know,  when it comes to this topic, I'm trying to be as open and transparent as possible. 

My brain's going on a different.  Okay. I'm assuming people can, uh, we'll, we'll put a link and everything to your website and path consulting.  Uh, uh, the website is manufacturingpath. com. Oh, okay.  Manufacturingpath. com. We'll make sure to put a link to that.  Right. Um,  because one of the things is that people don't realize is 70 percent of the autistic population is average to above average intelligence.

Yeah.  And if you look at the numbers that and with the 80 percent employment rate, you've got roughly just in the US alone, close to 4 million unemployed autistic adults. You've got a huge untapped talent pool that. If you can figure out how to accommodate, or not accommodate, but just how to make them successful in your organization. 

It's a huge, it can be a huge competitive advantage, right?  When you compare the talent pool that's available to the number of jobs that are open,  there are no open jobs.  Right. So it's really just a mismatch in understanding. You've got the talent pool to fill it. Yeah. Now, they're not all going to want to go into manufacturing, you know, some are more artistic, some are more into the social sciences, uh, but you've got a massive talent pool that you can, you know,  tap into and a large majority of them are stuck working minimum wage jobs pushing shopping carts at a Costco or handling a cash register at Walmart or boxes in a warehouse like more boxes in the Yeah 

Hmm.  I would love to Jason, um, as we get our community up and started, we, we're planning to, uh, launch an automation ladies discord community  soon. Um,  because we have had over, over the years of doing this, just so, so many great connections, so many people that kind of want to engage with us in some way, or we end up doing projects together or referrals between each other.

Like the people that come on the show or come in the comments, there's something about us that draws us to each other. Right.  And 1 of those things is, you know, people that feel like outsiders, people that maybe haven't had the traditional, you know, climbing the corporate ladder  type of thing. They, I think they gravitate towards us a little bit because that's a lot.

A lot of what we represent out here is weird career paths. Um, you know, a lot of interests, different things like that. And I think that I would be very interested to find out as we grow that community. If any of the women, um, that come on the show or, or, you know, are kind of with us, if, if it's as prevalent, um, obviously we have a smaller sample of engineers that are women to begin with, but do you know anything about that, Jason?

Okay, so the autism diagnosis in,  um,  male population is about 1 in 4. Okay,  so, but 1 in 4 males are autistic. Wow.  Um, women get diagnosed at a much later age because Women naturally are more socially wired,  right?  So they get diagnosed a lot later. So if you look at the stats, uh,  It's they say it's at the younger ages.

It's like it's  A lot less common. Yeah.  And girls, but then when they normalize those stats over time and they look more into adulthood, they find out that it's almost a one for one ratio. Wow. Yeah. Like, it's still more.  Dominant in the male population, but  as they get out into looking at into the adults, they realize that, you know, I think it's.

Yeah. I think it's like one,  one  female is autistic for every 1. 8 males that are autistic or something like that. So pretty close. So it's almost, it's almost a one to one ratio. Yeah.  So just if, if we can, I guess my current ask is join the community when we open it up and We'll see, I would love for this to be a recurring topic that we just keep  talking about because it's very important.

Um, we care a lot about D. E. I, but we only represent.  To well, his, his alley, although she looks, she doesn't look at Hispanic, right? Women. In in a certain age range, uh,  we really don't represent much of the representation, uh, in terms of everything that, you know, we should be looking at all kinds of people.

So we are also, you know, wanting to learn, wanting to make sure that we understand and open our minds. And, um,  as we grow our respective organizations as well, it's, it's professionally, it's an imperative for us to understand how to hire and train and scale  a workforce that can produce above average results.

Um, do you have any tips for small business owners that maybe can't afford a consultant or these?  You know, it's hard when, when there isn't, like you said, the, the process is not simple for an individual to get diagnosed, let alone know kind of what their intricate, you know, their special flavor is, uh, so to speak, but from an employer standpoint, I know that I talked to a smaller, uh, integration from recently about hiring and they were, you know, even doing things like personality assessments and, you know, things like that, it, it, the cost gets prohibited for small companies. 

Oh, any tips?  Um, 

This, uh, that's where I'm trying to get more speaking engagements at our industry trade shows is to bring that  more readily available to those who can't  afford it. Yeah. Right. Um,  and I'm trying to stay broad enough that it's applicable to multiple people and not,  you know, push,  you know, something that.

Only accommodates me. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Which is very difficult because I. Only really talk from my experience, right? Um, and I can bring in from experience from those that I talked to, but. I'm more prone to fall back onto my own experience and what I've experienced, right? Um, you know, up until my diagnosis and before I.

Went off injured, I averaged at least 3 employers a year. Wow,  because I didn't. You know,  I, I always thought it was my knowledge and skill set that  got me let go from jobs. And then when I got the diagnosis, and I started to learn, learn about it, it was like going, oh, it wasn't my knowledge and skill set.

It was  my social skills. Are what caused me to lose my jobs. Yeah.  Yeah. I can also see examples of people like being passed over. Uh, like you said, taking advantage of being told to do work that really isn't in the scope of their job, but they, you know, do it because like, just like the background stuff, the people's motivations that are not clear, like none of that is up front and center. 

This is fantastic. Thank you so much, Jason. I know we've talked about this before. I've been trying to follow along with what you're doing. Um, I know you've been writing a lot, right? Uh,  I have, I write on all kinds of topics. Uh, I'm trying to wrap up my book on generative AI and it's used within industry.

Okay.  Um, and then I'm also trying to wrap up my book on, uh, my on  neurodivergence. Okay.  Great. So I've got 2 books on the go right now, both are in final editing and it's,  I'm a little bit of a perfectionist. So. I keep going through and I have to just at some point, I'm going to say, you know what? This is good enough.

I have to yeah,  push it through. Well,  we are very excited for that. Um, we'll make sure to update your guest profile with links to your books when they come out. Please stay in touch to make sure. I mean, I'm sure you will. You've been very kind to kind of stay in touch with us. Uh, over the last few months and give us a little glimpse of things when you started the company and that sort of stuff.

So. I appreciate that and maybe we can work together at some point to put together some information that we can put out to our community.  Raising awareness, I think is number 1. And I think, you know, today just goes to show there are just, there's still plenty of people out there that just don't know about this. 

And and get that pretty much taboo in a lot of circles.  You know, it's not talked about, it's just.  Ignore it. It's like going, Oh, yeah, I know somebody who is. And  so what? Or,  um, too often I encounter. Individuals are like going. Oh, yeah. Well, we, we, we accommodate for this. And then you start talking to them and you start talking to employees and it's like. 

No, you don't accommodate for this at all. Yeah,  well, we are the place where we talk about all the things that people don't want to talk about. So,  uh,  you have a platform here. My friend to come back anytime. Um, there's developments updates, things you have on offer, uh, things that you can put out to educate people.

We are all about that. We appreciate it. Are we going to be seeing you at, uh, automate this year or any other shows? Obviously trade shows are not your favorite place, but I know you go to right, right now. It's looking like it's going to be a slow year for trade shows for me. Um, I was at IME West.  Um, I will probably be at IME South.

What is that? IME South, where is that? And when? Do you know? Charlotte and in June, I believe. Oh, okay.  All right, so, um, I'm not sure if I'll be at automate yet.  I have registered for it to attend it as a.  You know, just  walk the floor type person, but I don't know if I'll be there on any other.  And then the other aspect.

Yeah. Right. So, well, we hope to see you there. Um, and if you do show up and walk around, we'll be walking around too, along with our recordings and things. Um, we'll be doing our automate lives. And then, uh, on the Tuesday of automate, we'll be doing some podcast recording, uh, with Hardy. So probably plenty of opportunities for us to meet up,  but I look forward to the next chance we get to see you in person.

And we would love to keep our community up to date. About all the things that you're doing, your writings, any speaking engagements you have, any trainings you have. Um, is there anything, cause, uh, yeah, it looks like we're at time just about now. Is there anything that you wanted to get across to our audience during this episode that we didn't cover or, or we didn't ask about, because we tend to kind of take this conversation wherever you want to take it. 

No, I think we pretty much covered everything. Uh, I'm sure there'll be more stuff in the future. Uh,  it's an ever evolving topic and.  You know, I've got tons of things I love to talk about, especially when it comes around to gen AI and where it fits into the industry, I could  get me on talking about that for at least a good two days.

Okay, well, I think we might do a follow up episode on that. Maybe we'll, we can time it around the time your book gets released. Um, but we would love to have that conversation. I was actually just chatting with chat earlier,  uh,  trying to help with some proposal stuff. And, uh, I'm still not there where I find it to be.

I haven't found the use cases where it's just like, yes, it's like, uh, it does  tons of value, like I, you know.  I'll just book an book, book an hour or two hours with me and I'll take you through and show you how to actually  get some real use out of it. Okay. Yeah, maybe that would, that would be really cool.

Maybe we can offer like training through our platform on, on just how to use chat GPT for your work, um, because  I have pushed that tool to the breaking point. Yeah.  Very good. I actually, I ran into the limit of it was done with my whatever. It was like, come back at 4 15 or 4. Oh, I've got I've got the paid version.

So I don't I do too. Uh, but I guess you still run into. Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. I hit that that that time limit where you got, you know, so many.  Queries and you got to come back at a certain time. Yeah. But I upgraded to the team's plan to give me a little bit more. Oh, okay. So I'm paying, you know,  60 bucks a month instead of, uh, the 25.

Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.  Hey, Jason Jones, uh, chimes in. He says, Hey, everything gets better when, when there's a Jason involved. Uh, and then he, oh, the new 3d printer I ordered utilizes AI for build monitoring. Very cool. Yeah. I'm starting to see, you know, more and more AI applications.  Make sense and, you know, provide real value.

And oftentimes I think more so than just something pure AI. It's adding some AI capability to something that already. Is in existence and already does something. Well, um, yeah, I know somebody who runs a three day print printing company and, uh, they've used chat GPG to refine their, um, their designs and the cost savings.

They've seen from the design. The  redesign has been you. Wow.  You know, so they've shrunk their product. Their product is better. They're using a lot less material. I mean, from my days of doing, like, optimization, design optimization, running through just, like, scenarios, things like that, I mean, AI can just do all that so much faster.

And you don't have to design exactly the parameters that you need and the iterations that it needs to run through. Um,  that's really cool.  I bumped into a company. What they do is they take a video footage. Of a product and then the I actually designs the product again  and refines it. Wow.  So that no, no design required by somebody else.

They just. Get a 3D image of the product and then the AI goes through and it redesigns the whole thing and prints out a new one.  With like, I guess, do you give it some optimum, like what, what you're trying to optimize for up front or is it? Oh, they never let me see under the hood. Okay. Yeah.  Well, very cool, Jason.

Thank you so much for taking the time to join us, especially on your relaxing time, days off. I hope the weather, weather gets better for you.  And then, yeah, I would like to see some sun, but that's not happening anytime soon. Where can people connect with you, follow you, find more about, found out more about your work?

Um, the best place is on my LinkedIn profile. Okay. I've  used my time off. I've reconverted my LinkedIn profile into more of a landing page. Uh, so they've got links in there to be able to book, you know, meetings directly with me. Um,  there's, you know, should be a link in there to my first book, which.  On digital transformation, which, you know, that was an experience in self writing your very first book and trying to edit it yourself and stuff like that.

So before you, I, right, would you, are you using just to help edit your came out just as like,  I was releasing. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So.  Very cool. Well, thank you so much for your time, Jason. Um, we are going to have when the episode airs, you'll have your guest profile and automation. Ladies will have your links there, including a link to your LinkedIn.

Although I think most people that know us are watching this already on LinkedIn. Um, so you probably can just click on Jason's name. I would encourage everybody here that if you participated, if you don't know, Jason, or you're not connected with him. Send him a message. Say, Hey, I saw you on Automation Ladies and connect with him.

Um, I'm pretty sure you're open to building, you know, growing your network, right? We have engineers.  Yeah, yeah. So connect with him. Send him a note. Um, Linda Freeman gave us this really great tip when she was on. Just send that note so that next time maybe you, you know, don't talk to Jason again for a year, but you see him come across him.

You can check that message and you'll remember exactly why you connected with him and when. Um, so that is a great tool. And yeah, make friends with each other. Uh, I think we can all as a community get ahead a lot faster if we continue to learn from each other, share with each other, collaborate together. 

So, with that said, I think, uh, Well, sign off here almost on time, um, and say, say goodbye. And we'll see everybody. We have another, uh,  we have a live already scheduled for next week with our friend Dale Parker at Keystone gas services. And then we have been busy recording as well. So there are now episodes coming out on the podcast. 

On Thursday afternoons, um, as well as our lives, and then we now have a newsletter. Please subscribe to our newsletter. Um, if you get a chance. It's on our website automation ladies that we also have it as a LinkedIn newsletter. Um, so if you follow us, you'll get an invitation to accept. Uh, subscribing to that really what we're putting out in the newsletter is.

Links to our episodes and our events because we don't have a way to invite everybody that follows us to these events. Um, I implo our LinkedIn make a way for us to send an invite to everyone that follows us, please. But until then, uh, we have to ask you to, uh, subscribe to the newsletter. And, uh, we promise it's not spammy, but it's just every Thursday morning, it's what's, you know, what's the live for today?

What's coming up?  Um, that way you can kind of follow, follow us, uh, follow along. And I want to say, give a shout out to our sponsor of the newsletter. The first few additions is Rockwell Automation. So there are some links in there, uh, for some resources from Rockwell.  But with that, yeah, I think I'll say thank you everybody for joining us.

Thank you so much, Jason. And, uh, we look forward to seeing you at the earliest opportunity.  Bye.  Bye.