Art Heals All Wounds

Feed Drop: Allyship is a Verb, Hosted by Chris Angel Murphy: One Woman's Late in Life Lesbian Story, Featuring Kathy Houston

• Pam Uzzell • Season 4 • Episode 19

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Show notes from Chris Angel Murphy and Allyship is a Verb

Put yourself in the other person's shoes. This week, Kathy Houston (she/her) talks about Club LILLES and what it means for her to be a late in life lesbian. In this episode, you will learn 1. How lesbian TikTok has been a wonderful, informative resource. 2. Why her first girlfriend gave her “homework.” 3. What it feels like to live in the affirming bubble of St. Petersburg, Florida.

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🎙️ Connect with Kathy to learn more about + support her work:

💻 Sources and resources from this episode:

Pam Uzzell [00:00:00]:

Hello, everyone. Happy Pride! I wish you a Happy Pride, whoever you are, because Pride is for everyone, whether you identify as LGBTQ+ or you have family, friends, colleagues or neighbors who do, June is the time to celebrate together. One thing I'm celebrating this month is my friendship with Chris Angel Murphy, who hosts the podcast Allyship is a Verb. I feel like Chris Angel and I are in similar places in our podcasting journey, and so many times I felt supported by them, and I can only hope that they feel supported by me, too. It was incredibly exciting to see Allyship is a Verb nominated for an Ambie Award this past year, which is the equivalent of an Oscar for us podcasters. I listen to Chris Angel's show because I learn so much. I look around me and think, wow. I have so many family members, friends, and students who are part of the LGBTQ+ community, and honestly, for someone my age, it's a whole new world of how to speak inclusively. So I turn to Allyship is a Verb and Chris Angel, who has a master's in social work, to learn. But I also tune into their podcast to hear interviews that range from heartwarming to sad to kind of silly. Frankly, it's just a great show to listen to. To hear how Chris Angel's guests have navigated all the ups and downs of their lives. The episode I'm sharing today really warmed my heart. One thing I've discovered in my 50s is that it's never too late to grow and it's never too late to make changes in your life. But it's usually not about changing who you are. It's about discovering and embracing who you are. So I'm celebrating this journey of discovery that Chris Angel explores with their guest in the following episode. I hope that wherever you are in your journey of discovery, you find this episode inspiring and heartwarming, too.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:02:19]:

Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing Allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond.

Kathy Houston [00:02:35]:

Hi there. My name is Kathy Houston. My pronouns are she, her.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:02:42]:

Kathy is the owner of Run Your Life Coaching. She supports mature women in creating lasting change within different aspects of their lives, including topics like relationships and various forms of self care. To me, she's proof that it's never too late to learn about who you are and make big, bold changes. We met through a guest podcast directory and hit it off right away. At least that's how it felt on my end. Her story is another one I don't think we get to hear very often. And much like the kink conversation with Wesley just a few episodes ago, some of what we discuss here is also majorly stigmatized. With all of my guests, I encourage you to listen with an open heart and mind. Here are three self reflection questions for you to ponder while you listen to our conversation. Be sure to stick around after for three more. And a fun story about I can't even say this without laughing, a fun story about loofahs and upside down pineapples. Yes. All right, self reflection questions. Number one, do I believe that there is a point in which it's too late to come out? Number two, how have I explored my own sexuality? Are there ways I can continue to explore it? Number three, how do I feel about hearing the sexual experiences of people older than me? Why? And now our conversation. You're a late in life lesbian. What does that mean to you?

Kathy Houston [00:04:37]:

That means that I didn't figure it out that I was attracted to women until I was 45 years old.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:04:43]:

Starting at the beginning and working our way up to where you are present day, which, spoiler alert, you're doing pretty well. You've actually been hit on by women since you were 15 years old. But in our first conversation, you were telling me about how you just weren't interested. I'm curious about what the moment was for you, where you were finally like, oh, hello.

Kathy Houston [00:05:05]:

I was 45 years old. I was in a training session in Chicago. So I was away from home. We were all away from home, and we were doing training for a retail company that I worked for at the time. And this very lovely Latina woman hit on me, very much so, and very openly and very outwardly. It took me by surprise, and I was like, oh, what do I do with this? And it took about two weeks for me to figure it out. And then the second two weeks of our training, I actually responded a little bit in kind. There was no physical contact. There was not an interaction or anything, so to speak. But when we said goodbye to each other at the airport and I knew that I would never see her again because she was flying back to LA. I was flying back to Tampa. I was upset. I was very upset. I felt very physically attracted to this woman. I got on the plane and I'm like, oh, my gosh, how can I see this woman again? And I like women, and now what do I do?

Chris Angel Murphy [00:06:06]:

Yeah. So what was different about her from the other women that you were just like, okay, this is who I'm drawn to? Was there, like, a difference?

Kathy Houston [00:06:15]:

Oh, yes. She was very feminine. Long brown hair, presented as very feminine. You wouldn't suspect her by looking at her. The women that hit on me before were more masculine, more butch oriented, short hair, more guy-looking. And that was not, obviously, was not my attraction. So my attraction was to a femme. She had long hair, full makeup, nice clothes, heels, the whole nine yards. So that really got my attention.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:06:41]:

Claiming the term lesbian for yourself at 45, you ended up sharing that with both your mom and a friend in Arizona. What were those conversations like? What did you say and what did they say back to you?

Kathy Houston [00:06:54]:

I actually told my friend in Arizona first she was actually a lesbian as well, who had hit on me when we were young in our twenty s. And I said to her, I called her and I said, Alicia, I just got back from training in Chicago and I like women. And she's like, duh. She's like, I knew that. That's why I hit on you 20 years ago. I said, yeah, but you're not my type. And she goes, oh, well, tell me what happened. Tell me what happened. And so I told her all the moves that this woman had made and she'd moved her room right next to mine. She moved her room next to yours? Oh, my God, she was hitting on you. You didn't do anything about it? I'm like, no. She's like, oh, you're terrible, you're terrible. And then she says, all right, so now what are you going to do? Have you told Don, your husband? I'm like, no. And I didn't actually tell him for another five years until I was 50. So the conversation with my mom went very similarly. My mom's like, yeah, I kind of knew that. I was wondering when you were going to figure it out. And I'm like, Mom, really? She's like, well, you have to figure those things out on your own. I said, well, that's true. You're right, you do. She said, I didn't really think it would take you this long, but okay. And then her next question is, so now what are you going to do? And I kind of didn't do anything for five years. Like, nothing.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:08:22]:

You pushed it down?

Kathy Houston [00:08:25]:

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:08:25]:

So how did you push it down? And then what was finally the turning point where you're like, okay, I can't keep doing this to myself.

Kathy Houston [00:08:33]:

I pushed it down with alcohol and just drank more and stayed at work longer, and stayed away from home longer. Went into work early, stayed late, drank more. And then when I was 50, that was kind of the turning point. I actually went out and visited my friend in Phoenix, Arizona and she took me to the round robin of lesbian advisors (Chris Angel laughs) and I did a round robin of lesbian advisors, all of which said, "you need to tell your husband." "You need to have the 'I'm not happy talk.' You need to figure it out and let him know and then decide what you're gonna do. But you can't leave him in the dark; it's not fair to him, or you."Coming home with that guidance and instructions. I had the, "I'm not happy talk." Did not discuss lesbianism yet, I just said the "I'm not happy talk" in the marriage and you know, that kind of thing. Couple months later I said, "Okay, I am a lesbian. I want a divorce." And that was at year 29 of marriage. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:09:33]:

Yeah, because I think you had two kids together. You had a mortgage. What gave you the courage to start this new chapter in your life knowing that you had built this whole life together?

Kathy Houston [00:09:49]:

The kids were grown, both out of college and gone. We were no longer upside down on the house, so if a divorce was in the works, we could sell the house, make some money on it, and just split it and get out of it. I hadn't talked to a lawyer yet, but I had the name of a lawyer. I picked out an apartment, you know, I was kind of ready to go.And so that, that was the deciding factor, really, was finances and the kids being grown and out of college and not having to worry about them; and then turning 50. And it was just, it was just all this stuff piling on, you know, reevaluating your life and what am I doing? And I, you know, life's getting short. I don't have much time. I need to figure this out. You know, the time is now, I gotta go. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:10:31]:

Yeah. And then how did your husband take it? Like what were those conversations like? Did you make any progress? Like, did he see this coming? 

Kathy Houston [00:10:43]:

He said, "Well, we kind of knew that in college, that women were hitting on you; but you weren't responding, so I didn't think you were a lesbian."And so I, I told him what happened in Chicago. So he thought, "Well, do you have a girlfriend? Are you having an affair?" "No, none of that. I haven't dated women, I haven't done anything with women. I'm telling you this now with no, no agenda behind me." He's like, "Okay, well we're not gonna get a divorce. Let me see what I can do and we'll fix it. I'll make it work." Kind of thing. And so he came back with, "Okay, what have you been doing so far?" I said, "Well, I have been on dating apps and you know, I've been doing that." And he goes, "Okay, so you're gonna date women?" I said, "Yeah." And he says, "Okay." He stepped up his game in the bedroom, which was nice, but still not where I needed to be. I, I wanted to date women, and so I proceeded to go through the apps and find women to date, which was very difficult because I was married. So that was not something easy to find in the community. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:11:45]:

Yeah. What was it like to date again, because it had been so long since you had last dated, was there anything good about how the dating scene has changed over the years? Or what was it like being on the apps? 

Kathy Houston [00:11:58]:

It was awful. The ghosting, the not texting, the never meeting, you know. And I, I was honest to a certain point, I mean, at first I wasn't honest that I was married, but if things were gonna progress, of course I was honest that I was still married and usually they would say, "No thank you. Have a nice day." I did find a couple of people that would actually meet and go out and go on a date. And I actually, I did find one woman who was fine with it, lived on her own, and so we hit it off and we dated for two years. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:12:26]:

What were your first couple of dates like and what kind of thoughts did you have go through your mind?

Kathy Houston [00:12:34]:

Oh, I was so nervous. (Chris Angel laughs) . I was like, "Oh my gosh." I mean, I knew nothing about women or how to be with a woman. I mean, I know what I like, but I don't know how to do that, sexually in the bedroom, and I was just like, "Oh, good lord." The woman that I got with knew I was a newbie, knew I was married, okay, and she, she gave me homework. (both laugh) I had reading, I had reading to do, I had a video to watch (laughs) just to discover my sexuality. And I know that that's why we were meant to be together for that time, was for her to help me discover my sexuality and my inner person and my inner hippie - she's kind of a hippie - and my inner hippie, my inner fairy and to just live again.And I think I helped her have a relationship again. She had not had a relationship since her husband passed away in 10 years - At all. We went through the rocky road of communication and when do you text and when do I expect you to answer me? And how do we meet and when do we meet and all that, you know logistics of a relationship. And then she was very rusty, so she needed help with all that part, and I needed help with the actual physical part and, you know, inner sex stuff. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:13:57]:

Yeah, I mean it sounds like you were able to establish some really good boundaries and communicate what you needed for each other, and in some ways, like, balance each other out, is what I'm hearing. Is that right? 

Kathy Houston [00:14:08]:

Yes. Yeah, we did. We did actually balance each other out and she was very much about her work. Actually, her work came first before anything; her work and her animals. So I was like third, maybe fourth (both laugh) in her life. So that was a source of contention. Cause of course I wanted to be first, but no, that's not where you're going to be.So that was a, a learning experience and ultimately why we ended our relationship and broke up was that it just was not what I needed. You know, I needed full-time. I am the number one priority. I am your girlfriend, you are my girlfriend, and that's it. And she wasn't really looking for that. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:14:48]:

Yeah. You can't force it to work.

Kathy Houston [00:14:49]:

No, not at all.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:14:51]:

Well, you say in your bio that you're much happier for having left your husband and that you didn't know this kind of happiness existed. What does that happiness feel like for you, and how do you experience it? 

Kathy Houston [00:15:06]:

It's euphoric. It is an unbelievable feeling of warmth, of love, of connectedness, of just like a blanket and your favorite food, any comfort thing that you can think of; it's that like on steroids, it's like, it's that on acid. (Chris Angel laughs)  It's - and she and I both have talked about it in each other's arms - as we had no idea that this existed. Cause my wife was in the same situation, 30 year marriage and did the exact same thing I did. And she was very unhappy in her marriage and, and, and was, was really struggling. But it, it's indescribable. It is just absolutely amazing. You didn't know what you didn't know. I mean, I wasn't unhappy. I wasn't miserable by any means, but I had no idea it was like this. And so, yeah, truly fantastic.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:15:58]:

That's amazing.

Kathy Houston [00:15:59]:

My first person was my instructional instructor for two years, and then I dated another woman, and now I've dated my wife. And I'm with my wife now. Yeah, we've been together four years.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:16:12]:

So you moved to St. Petersburg, and you called it the gay capital of the south. Did I get that right?

Kathy Houston [00:16:19]:

Yes, it is.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:16:21]:

And something that had me cracking up, and I'm still cracking up thinking about it. You told me that it's gayer than gay. So can you share more about why you moved there and what it's been like and what makes it gayer than gay?

Kathy Houston [00:16:35]:

Okay. It's very open community. It's very welcome community. The streets are painted with the colors of the pride flag. The intersections are painted with all the colors. The pride flag hangs off the businesses. Everybody is very open. Walk down the street, hand in hand. You kiss in public, go to the bars, everybody goes to the bars together. There's primarily a lesbian bar and primarily a gay man bar. But we mix, between the two, depending on who's playing, what band is playing you know, who's doing what. We - we're looking for people to go out with and to hang out with and to find our community and we were in Tampa and I actually, we used the Meetups app - I'm gonna plug the Meetups app - we used that app; and we found it in St. Petersburg, which is where everybody is. We found ourselves driving, you know, three times a month. We're like, "Okay, when our lease is up, we're moving." So we found a place to rent. We had made some friends, our landlords are, are gay men who own the house. We're having two couples over this weekend for a barbecue. It's just very, very, easy. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:17:40]:

So in contrast, thinking about all the anti-LGBTQ+ legislation that's either been proposed or been passing in Florida, how tapped into that news are you? And for the times that you do hear about something else that's happening, like how has that made you feel while living there?

Kathy Houston [00:18:00]:

Like, we're in a bubble. Thank goodness. So we're in a bubble. Our mayor, the mayor of Tampa, is gay; Mayor Jane. And she told us in an LGBTQ+ chamber meeting that I just went to, we have to stay open and welcoming even though the rest of our state isn't. And the mayor of St. Petersburg was also there, our first Black mayor. And St. Petersburg's, also a very large Black community. He echoed the same thing as well - is we have to stay open and we have to stay welcoming and stay the course even though our state is not at the time. You know, in Tennessee, just passed the anti-drag show thing going on there. So basically, she and I are very new to the community, but we feel like our community is under attack.And we are under attack specifically in Florida. It's a very red state. It is Republican controlled. So anything they want to pass, they can and will. There's not a whole lot we can do about it except for vote and get out the vote and register to vote and register our community to vote and be activists for our community.But we don't feel it in our bubble. But we know it's there and we know that it's not a good thing for politics and for our state. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:19:11]:

Yeah. And I don't want to suggest that this is something you should be considering or that I'm trying to impose it on you. I'm just wondering, have you had conversations with your wife about what might happen if things get even more out of hand? Like, do you think there's a point at which you might move to another state or another country or yeah. Have you had those kinds of conversations?

Kathy Houston [00:19:33]:

We've had the conversation that we need to take care of our legal situation so that if gay marriage is abolished or somehow not legal or whatever, that our wills and all of our legal documents are in order before we had gay marriage. So that your power of attorney and all those things are taken care of so that the legal foundation is there as a couple, and we still need to do that. We have not.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:19:56]:

Kathy's right, folks. It is critical that we get our legal affairs in order and do things like get our names and gender markers changed before we might not be able to anymore.Last year a nonprofit hired me to do some writing for them, and one of the topics was wills. I found out that the LGBTQ+ community is less likely to have one. And this can be a problem because if two people are in a serious relationship and co-parenting but not married, a will is needed for protection.Only 10% of LGBT Americans were married according to a Gallup poll in 2017. So this especially impacts us. Wills protect an individual's assets. When someone doesn't have a will, the person's belongings go to another family member if there is no spouse. If either co-parent's family is a concern, it may be worth investing in a trust instead. Although it is more costly, trusts allow for more privacy and it's harder for family members or other people to challenge it.Even if we are without children, like me, we have to think about real estate, financial decisions, and end of life care. Courts are forced to make decisions on our behalf if wishes are not clearly laid out in a will or trust, especially when thinking about housing a child. And it's so expensive and it's unfortunate you have to go through all those hoops too, because not all of those documents are equal to each other. And so some of them are gonna offer better protection than others. And especially if you were worried about like having kids and things like that, you know, like custody or, or whatever - and fortunately, I don't think that's something y'all have to worry about - but yeah, it's, it's quite expensive. Yeah, to just take care of yourself in those ways.

Kathy Houston [00:21:40]:

Yeah, but that's definitely something that everybody should do. Every gay couple should do that anyway, whether you're legally married or not, because God forbid something should happen to gay marriage. I mean, we lost Roe v. Wade, so who knows what else we could lose?

Chris Angel Murphy [00:21:52]:

Absolutely.

Kathy Houston [00:21:53]:

Yeah. So that's very important is to have your legal ducks in a row.And then she and I have talked about that we - what we've not talked about moving or anything like that - we have had a conversation though, that I think that parents of trans children will have to move from Florida, because they're taking away any trans care under 18. So any medical care or parents can't make a decision to let their child transition under 18. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:22:18]:

According to CNN, President Joe Biden signed into law new federal protections for same sex and interracial couples back in December of 2022. The new law officially voids the Defense of Marriage Act, which had defined marriage as between a man and woman. It mandates that states honor the validity of out-of-state marriage licenses, including same-sex and interracial unions.We already know states are challenging this, including places like Tennessee. Their house just passed a bill targeting marriage equality. According to Black Wall Street Times, it allows county clerks to refuse to certify marriage licenses that go against their personal beliefs. The vague language of the bill gives room for local officials to deny marriage equality to LGBTQ+ couples, interracial couples, and interfaith couples.As far as moving, it's not always an option for families. They may not want to leave behind their friends, families, and communities and a life they've known for so long overall. It is a financial privilege to be able to move too. Some also intentionally stay to fight. Since joining this community, I guess I'm thinking more largely just the LGBTQ+ community overall, has it felt overwhelming to you in any way? Like just thinking about things like the terminology that exists or like the different, like communities or anything like that? Or how has that experience been for you? 

Kathy Houston [00:23:50]:

A little overwhelming with the terminology. We had to, (laughs) we've looked up a lot of stuff yeah. And we've, we've fallen deep into the hole of lesbian TikTok, (Chris Angel laughs) so that's been very educational as well. But - and actually it's been very educational and -

Chris Angel Murphy [00:24:07]:

well wait, so what have you learned on lesbian TikTok? I'm so curious. 

Kathy Houston [00:24:09]:

Well, terminology; "tops," the "bottoms," "switch," you know, all these kind of things that we're like "What?" "Vers", you know, "stud," you know all these kind of things that, that we had no idea, you know, cause I'm, I'm barely masc at all, and she's femme, and so it's like, "okay," you know, "What is all this other stuff." so we had to figure all that out. And then the history; I actually did try and read up on the history. I'd heard of Stonewall, I had no idea what it was. I said, "Okay, let me read about Stonewall. What is Stonewall?" So, and it's actually a place in New York City. I had no idea, you know, so, and then I read the history of the flag. Just kind of getting to know some of what has happened. I knew about the AIDS epidemic and I was, I had firsthand knowledge of that. I actually had a manager who worked for me in retail who died of aids. I've actually lost people to AIDS and so I, I was very aware of what that situation was. I didn't really have a, an idea of the men that survived - it's a little bit PTSD for them, you know. So when Coronavirus came, they were having flashbacks to losing everyone they knew to AIDS. And I didn't realize how devastating it was on the New York City Broadway community and how, you know, that just devastated Broadway for years. But a lot of the history took some time to, to learn that, those kind of things. And then the terminology is still changing. What's the, you know, "power bottom," you know, all these kind of things. It, it's just so, (Chris Angel laughs) I have no idea. Yeah, we had a very interesting conversation with our landlords who are gay men, 72 and 74 years old. I asked them about AIDS and how that affected them, especially in New York City, and they were in Europe at the time, so it didn't affect them as much and they didn't lose the friends and they don't have that PTSD thing about it.But one thing I found interesting was they asked us about trans. And they don't understand trans. So - and I thought that was interesting. Okay, so they're part of the community, but they're a very old part of the community and they don't understand what trans is. And they - I had to explain pronouns that they/them pronoun and what you would use if someone doesn't wanna be identified as a he or a she. That you call them a "they." "They went to go get us a drink." "They just went to the bar to get our food or whatever." You know, if they're a server, you know, "They do this, they do that. It's their thing that - you know, I called them on the phone." And they were like, "Oh, okay. What's the whole trans thing?" (both laugh) and, and I actually explained it to 'em as best I could from what I'd seen on TikTok (laughs) that that you know, that you're, you-I guess you would know, obviously better than any of us, but the feeling of being trapped in, in the wrong body, I think is kind, kind of a way of putting it. And maybe it's an oversimplification as well, but for them, that was a good idea of starting their thought process on that. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:27:00]:

Absolutely.

Kathy Houston [00:27:01]:

For, for them to think about that. And I said, "There's a lot more to it than that, but the surgeries are grueling and you know, all this kind of stuff." And I said, "But that's a whole other thing." And, and Raymond was still like, "Oh, I don't know." (laughs) "You don't have to understand it, Raymond. It's okay." You know, yeah. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:27:21]:

Yeah. No, it's, it's really interesting. I mean, so yeah, for some folks they can feel like maybe they're trapped in the wrong body or - yeah, there's lots of different like trans experiences cause there is no one trans experience. And I think you've articulated that very well. How did it feel to be in the role of like the educator versus being this person, like trying to just download all this information and process and keep up? How did that feel for you? 

Kathy Houston [00:27:46]:

Very strange, but yet rewarding and fulfilling; and so I was kind of glad that I'd done that.And it kind of, you know, goes into my business that I am in now, is being educated and being the helper and actually kind of explaining to them what it was. One of the guys seemed to get it more than the other guy, and the other guy was just kind of, "I don't get it." And his, his, his husband, his husband's like, "Oh, Raymond, you're never gonna get it. Don't worry about it. . . (Chris Angel laughs) We don't know anybody. It's okay." (laughs) 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:28:12]:

Oh my gosh. I know we spoke about your mom and I know we spoke about the friend in Arizona. How have other people in your life adjusted to this new information?

Kathy Houston [00:28:24]:

Pretty accepting overall, actually. I had a couple of people come out to me too.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:28:28]:

Oh, wow.

Kathy Houston [00:28:29]:

On the side, "By the way -" I'm like, "Oh, okay. Hi, I see you." (both laugh) You know? And then my daughter was particularly difficult, cause she thought I shoulda coulda woulda, you know, known this and how could I not know? And, you know, all that kind of stuff. She was very very upset about it, and took it very personally, "And now who's gonna take care of dad? And you're leaving him high and dry and - yadda yaddy."And I said, "Well, that's, you know, that's his responsibility. He is responsible for himself. He has to take care of himself." This doesn't affect our relationship, it doesn't affect our dynamic." But she did let it affect our dynamic, because then she took on the role of she had to take care of dad. And so then she was resentful to me for putting her in that position. So there's some therapy needed with all that . 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:29:18]:

Yeah, that sounds kind of messy.

Kathy Houston [00:29:20]:

It was very messy at the time. Since a couple years have gone by now, she, she loves Christie. She thinks she's wonderful. She's met - she's stayed with us. You know, we've, we've gone through a lot of stuff with her. So it's much better now, but at first it was very difficult with her.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:29:35]:

Yeah, sounds like it. When we first spoke after listening to your story, it really just reminded me a lot of the show, grace and Frankie and I mean, you're basically the lesbian version of that show.

Kathy Houston [00:29:49]:

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:29:50]:

This is your warning. There may be some spoilers for the show. I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit because you've actually seen it, and I think you said you had to skip the first season just because it was just too close to home.

Kathy Houston [00:30:02]:

Yeah, it was. It was too real. We had to skip the first season where the guys came out and broke it to their wives and wanted to be together and had to go through the whole changing of the house and the living arrangements and all that. We, we could not watch it. We were just like, "Okay, this isn't funny. We, we love Lily Tomlin, we love Jane Fonda, but I can't watch this." Let's skip ahead to where they're okay with it now (laughs) and then it gets funny and it's a cute show. And they actually covered some topics too - and you know, dating again at such an older age and the guys were having issues and the dating for them, yeah. And especially at a mature age, which was a very different thing, which was good for us, but we - once we skipped ahead to season two, we were fine. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:30:43]:

Did you feel like you were represented at all in any of those topics that came up? Yeah, I guess I'll leave it at that.

Kathy Houston [00:30:51]:

Yes absolutely. Especially with them hiding it for so long. Now, see, we didn't hide it to our husbands. I mean, we were openly dating, so that was a difference from Michelle. It wasn't this, you know, "You've betrayed me for 25 years kind of thing." Which I think that was a lot of baggage for those two wives and that show, for Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin, their characters.We didn't have that part of it, but we still had the jealousy. We still had the, "Now what are we gonna do?" We still had the, "Oh, you're going off to be happy and I'm miserable." And you know, and, and they, you know, they drink more and they're like, "Well, okay, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna go shopping and I'm gonna buy something, you know?"And that's kind of where I left my husband - where we left our husband's - was kinda like, "Okay, we're gonna go be happy. Bye." And yeah, and that's, that sucks. And so I had to, you know, tiptoe through that with the help of a therapist. I had therapy every week in those days. And just to get through my own emotions and to help him get through his.And to not be the volatile, to not react, to realize he's in grief, he's having anger issues, this is what he's going through. And you have to see it from his perspective and have that empathy. Put yourself in his shoes, you know? Okay. You're not sexy, you're not cute. So, and that - I mean, it was emasculating for him, for me to leave him for a woman. You know, it'd be one thing if I left him for another man, but I left him for a woman, so what does that say about him? 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:32:15]:

Right.

Kathy Houston [00:32:17]:

Yeah. You know that that whole masculinity piece and ego was just absolutely blown. So -

Chris Angel Murphy [00:32:24]:

Yeah. Where is your relationship with him at now? I mean, of course your kids are grown, so it's not like you have to stay together for the kids kind of thing, but do you have some kind of friendship you're trying to maintain or do you think you'll ever get there if you don't have one?

Kathy Houston [00:32:38]:

We do not have any kind of relationship right now. The divorce was actually final recently, so we really don't have any communication. We've communicated about a couple financial issues. I think that probably my mom's health and her decline, which is happening will probably force us back to some communication again. That is probably about it. If our son gets married. That would force us back into communication. And then of course, actually, you know, any kind of funeral, you know, marriage - marriage, birth, and a funeral. So is, is how you get the family together. So I, I think that's probably gonna be our only interaction, is any major life events.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:33:17]:

Yeah. I feel like you just said the title of a memoir or a movie. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, yeah, those are some pretty major events. When you first met your now wife, how was that and at what point did you realize that she was someone that you wanted to marry?

Kathy Houston [00:33:39]:

Let's see, we had three dates. The third date was the sleep together date.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:33:44]:

Okay.

Kathy Houston [00:33:45]:

She was so nervous. Oh my goodness. And I was more, now I was the more experienced one. (Chris Angel laughs) So, so that was, that was a switch. "Okay, I'm the more experienced one in the bedroom now. All right. This is different." We had a few sleepovers, shall we say, and then I think I accidentally text her within like three weeks, that "I love you." Like, but it was accidentally, I was like, "Oh, okay. Da da da. I love you." I'm like, "Ugh! Oh wait, did I just text 'I love you?'" (Chris Angel laughs) And she's like, "Yes, you did." And she said, "I love you too." And I'm like, "Oh, oh, oh, no. Oh yes. Oh, yay." So basically we were, we were on a long getaway, so within two months I asked her to marry me.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:34:28]:

Wow.

Kathy Houston [00:34:29]:

We were on a long getaway. And she's like, "Okay, how does that work? We're both married." I said, "I don't know. We're gonna figure it out." We actually did a commitment ceremony with each other, privately, just to each other. We spread our vows and exchanged rings on the beach in St. Petersburg, a year after we started dating.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:34:49]:

Nice. So you said when you were first leaving your now ex-husband that you were looking at apartments and things like that. Did you actually get a chance to live on your own for a while? And what was that like for you after, like, living with someone for so long? 

Kathy Houston [00:35:04]:

No, I jumped right from one relationship to another. So there was no living on my own.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:35:09]:

Oh, dang.

Kathy Houston [00:35:11]:

I don't think I would be good living on my own, I really don't. Yeah, I don't do well when she's gone for a long weekend. (both laugh) Yeah. It's like, "No, where'd she go?" It's a good thing I have a pet. It's a good thing I have a cat , but - 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:35:23]:

You really are just the lesbian stereotype. I've been trying so hard not to say that, but like,

Kathy Houston [00:35:31]:

I do not drive a Subaru, however. Or a Jeep. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:35:33]:

Hey, we can change that.

Kathy Houston [00:35:34]:

Yeah, I'm good. I drive a, I drive a Nissan Altima, but (Chris Angel laughs) - when she's gone, I don't do good for a long weekend. I really don't think I'd be good on my own. I really don't. I haven't ever been on my own. I went straight from high school, straight to college, straight out of college, into a marriage.I have lived on my own when I was in the Army. I take that back. I did. I live on my own for months at a time in an apartment complex while I was attending school or attending a different post when my husband and I were separated from each other. For army reasons. But that's it. I mean, no, no long term on my own.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:36:06]:

Yeah, well I get it. Like you said, you've just tapped into this new level of happiness and when your life is maybe, I don't know, let's say on a 10 scale, you know, when it's normally maybe like a five or six, it's not bad, but you're just like, "Okay, I guess this is what it's supposed to feel like." And all of a sudden you're at like, what, I don't know, 10, 11, 12, like off the charts. (laughs) 

Kathy Houston [00:36:25]:

12. Yeah. Off the charts. Yep. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:36:27]:

Yeah, so I can, I can see how you don't want to be away from your person. Thinking about your career, you've mentioned that you had, you know, this career in retail and then you took a new adventure because you started your own business. So what do you do now? 

Kathy Houston [00:36:45]:

I am a life coach for mature women, and I create lasting change in the health/fitness area, relationships, and also the mindset energy piece, goals, objectives, all those kind of setting - of getting unstuck type things. That's what I do mostly for mature women. I am not strictly LGBTQ+ I have several hetero clients as well, but all, all more mature women that we, we do that with.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:37:14]:

What sparked your interest in wanting to start that as a business? Is it because of all the change that you were just like going through, or was that something you'd always had in, in your head. 

Kathy Houston [00:37:25]:

I had wanted to get out of retail for a while, but I really didn't have the self-confidence to do that. And I said, "I don't have any skills. And all I know how to do is be a store manager. That's it. I'm stuck for this, for life." And then I was with Five Below, and we parted ways rather suddenly, and I said, "Okay. Door closes. Door opens. All right. What doors opening Where? I can't see it. Where is it? It's gotta open here somewhere." So I'm looking online at fitness, personal trainer type thing, cause I've, I've always been into fitness, been a runner, always worked out, been to the gym, know the stuff, know nutrition, I know the stuff, I know how it works. So I was like, "Okay, well let me do that." So I'm looking it up and I'm like, "Ugh." You know, $15 an hour to be in the gym, start on the gym floor, you know, talking to people, trying to get clients kind of thing.I'm like, "Oh, that sounds grueling." I'm getting older. I'm not - done that (laughs) I'm not young for the gym anymore. So then as I'm doing it, literally life coach ads start popping up in my feet and I'm like, "Oh, look at that. There we go." And I started reading about that and I'm like, and it was just like, "That's it. This is it. I'm done. I'm in, okay, where do I sign?"Then I needed to do my homework and find a, you know, a training system that worked, it wasn't too expensive, that had proven results, good reviews, all that kind of stuff. So I did the Coach Training Alliance as my school training for certification to be a life coach. So that was pretty amazing.And once I got into it, I knew - yep. I'm like, "Yep, this is it . Now I just gotta figure out how to make it work." 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:38:54]:

So thinking about your timeline, when did that happen? Especially in comparison to when you figured out that you're a lesbian, like it was at around the same time? Or did like one happen before the other?

Kathy Houston [00:39:06]:

The changing to a life coach happened when Christie and I just moved in together. We weren't moved in together very long, you know, completely separated from our husbands and now we're moved in together and I think it was like six months later. And then it was like, "Okay, career change, here we go."

Chris Angel Murphy [00:39:21]:

That's a lot of change.

Kathy Houston [00:39:22]:

It was, it was a lot, but it was a good time to do it though. It, the timing couldn't have been any better, I don't think. Because if you're gonna make a bold move like that, you know, make several: just throw it all up in the air and just do it.  Cause I've always thought about not getting out of retail. "How do I get out of retail? How do I get out of retail." And so this was the opportunity and I said, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make it work. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:39:44]:

Have you met many other people who are late in life? Gay, lesbian, et cetera?

Kathy Houston [00:39:49]:

Not really. There is a club, Club LILLES. They are actually, it's nationwide - it actually started as a TikTok. (Chris Angel laughs) So, and the founder is here in St. Pete, Jamie Messina. I'm gonna give her a plug for Club LILLES. And they're all over the country now. She had no idea. She's a lesbian from the time she was a toddler. But she found these people as a life coach - she's also a life coach - and that they needed help in how to transition and how to do it. And so she created this club and everybody - it's a very open forum, it's a Facebook group, and they have meetings and get togethers. Our actual friends that we met in St. Petersburg pretty much are all dyed-in-the-wool lesbians. A couple were married, but knew all along, but just did the heteronormal thing. My experience of not even knowing is very rare. I actually have not found anybody with my experience at my age that late in life, you know, to figure it out. A lot of women were married and knew and were on the side, you know, with women. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:40:52]:

Yeah, I mean, I remember learning about this kind of stuff pretty early on in my twenties because I've been a part of various PFLAG chapters and - for folks listening, you know, PFLAG is a national organization. They have three different branches; they do advocacy education, and they also have support. And so there's different chapters all over. There's over like 400 in the states alone, and then there's international presence as well, and those are run by different folks. But yeah, I remember going to support groups and we'd have couples that had been together for like 30, 40 years, and then all of a sudden, like one of the people in the relationship was just like, well, I'm, I'm a gay man, you know, and I, I need to be honest about this with myself. And yeah, they were just in this, like - I don't wanna say turmoil cause I can't really speak for them and I, I don't remember exactly, you know, everything that they were feeling - but I just remember them going like, "Now what? Like now what do we do? Like, do we part ways? Like you've been part of my life for so long-" And you know, then just thinking about like you were touching on a little bit earlier too, like how the partner feels in that. Like, you know, "Did we waste our time." Or you know, or "Maybe we're best friends, or-" So yeah, I, I remember hearing about this quite a while ago cause I'll be 36 this year and yeah, I just, I couldn't imagine being in that kind of scenario. It's just not my life experience, so. 

Kathy Houston [00:42:19]:

No, and I haven't, I haven't found that many women with my experience at that age. I've met them online, I've met them, you know, through Club LILLES. I actually did a podcast with a lady - actually in my physical area of St. Petersburg. There's, there's none. I mean, some people were married for a few years or maybe 10 years, or they had a kid, whatever - but they knew and they had women on the side.And then they said, - well, went ahead, "Let's get divorced and let's just do this." And, you know, that kind of thing. And then there's women who've just been out since they were 12, so. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:42:50]:

Yeah. Club LILLES is such a cute name. I love that. (laughs) 

Kathy Houston [00:42:54]:

Yeah. I actually gave a speaking engagement the other night and I said, "I identify as a LILLE." And they just sat there, they're just - a different, a gay, straight, male, female, and that all kind of people, and they just sat there for a minute and they looked at me and I said, "Late in life lesbian." (laughs) "Oh, okay. Yeah, alright." And then I had to explain what that was of course. But yeah. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:43:16]:

It's really clever.

Kathy Houston [00:43:18]:

Yeah. I did not come up with it. It is not mine.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:43:22]:

(laughs) I appreciate you giving credit where credit is due. Although you have not found someone that's mirrored much closer to your experience, unlocking that community, what has that done for you and like your, yeah - just like what has it done for you? 

Kathy Houston [00:43:38]:

We chit chat, we talk. I mean, it's just, it's just, crazy. I mean, Christine and I found it right away when we were in Tampa and we had to keep driving over here. And of course we've made closer friends with some of the women. It was like, "Oh, let's get to know them. Okay, no, we're not inviting them again. (Chris Angel laughs) Okay, let's get to know these people." And it's just same as everybody. Everybody does that. You meet a group of people and you're like, "Oh, I like that one, not that one." You know, "We hit it off with these people. Oh no, we don't hit it off with these people." Or we kind of hit it off with this one. You know, we seem to do better with other couples. That seems to be an easier fit for us is to hang out with other couples. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:44:14]:

Yeah. So it's almost like double dating.

Kathy Houston [00:44:16]:

Yeah, we do a lot of that, and so we have a lot of that going on.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:44:21]:

So we talked a little bit about the bedroom. (laughs) Thank you for your vulnerability there. And I'm thinking about like PDA, right? Like hand holding, kissing in public, things like that. Is that something, I mean - cause I don't wanna assume that that's something that you engage in- but like, is that something that's important in your relationship? And if, and when, you've done that with people you were dating or partnered with, like has that been scary for you? Are there like places you won't do that? Yeah. 

Kathy Houston [00:44:49]:

Yeah, we just had that happen last night.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:44:53]:

Oh, wow.

Kathy Houston [00:44:53]:

So we went back to Tampa (both laugh) for - we went back to Tampa for a dinner and we're at a regular, a chain restaurant, a nice restaurant. We're sitting at the bar and we look at each other and we're like, "Nope, we're in Tampa." (laughs) So there was not much touching or hand holding or, you know, hand on the thigh or her arm around the shoulder or any of that. We do do that in public, in St. Petersburg, but we are very conscious of when we're not in St. Petersburg, that that is might not be okay. And especially that we're more mature, you know, we don't do that a lot anyway, but we especially watch where we're at and like if we're out in public when she was a teacher and she could have been seen as a teacher with me, you know, like at the fair by her children, by her students, you know. If we're out, there's no hand holding, there's no PDA, no. There's no touching, because she could have been seen as a teacher. And now she's not a teacher. So those kind of things, we think about that stuff a lot and all the time. So, we are very aware of our surroundings and whether we're touching each other, holding hands, a little kiss. You know, yes or no, depends on where we are. 

Chris Angel Murphy [00:46:00]:

Did it feel weird doing that at first?

Kathy Houston [00:46:02]:

Yes.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:46:04]:

Where do I put my hands? (laughs) My hand's sweating. Yeah. 

Kathy Houston [00:46:07]:

Yeah. I'm like, oh, we're in St. Pete. I get to hold your hand. We're walking down the street, walking down the sidewalk, holding hands like two little school children. And the other lesbians are like, oh, my God, you're such a baby gay. And they forget that because of our age. They forget we're baby gays sometimes, and we want to go to all the gay places. We want to do all the gay stuff. And they're like, oh, then they're done that. Oh, my God. I'm like, no, let's go to the gay bar. Let's go over here. And they're like, okay.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:46:37]:

They humor you? Yeah.

Kathy Houston [00:46:38]:

Yes. They're like, okay, baby gays, let's go.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:46:43]:

Are there events elsewhere that ,especially LGBTQ+ events, that you hope to take advantage of in your lifetime? Like, I'm thinking Pride in another state or country or I don't know, like, going to Stonewall and having a drink there or anything like that?

Kathy Houston [00:47:02]:

Haven't really thought about that. We did think about Dinah Shore in Palm Beach, California.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:47:09]:

In Palm Springs.

Kathy Houston [00:47:10]:

Yeah, Palm Springs. We did think of that. Like, oh, that'd be fun. And there's Girls in Wonderland, and they travel around the country. They were actually in St. Pete not that long ago. That's a much younger crowd.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:47:25]:

So I have not been on lesbian TikTok. When I was briefly on TikTok, it well, it took me I learned a little too much about myself on TikTok, so we deleted TikTok for now because I don't think I can handle to learn anything else about myself at this point. I need a minute, but I'm curious. What is lesbian TikTok like? Because I know that you said that you're learning about things like definitions, but are you learning from other mature women or yeah. Who are people that you watch on there?

Kathy Houston [00:47:54]:

A lot of younger women, actually, the 30 somethings have been very educational and very informative. There's a lesbian couple on there that does their coaching and a TikTok on there if they do a relationship coaching and TikTok, and then there's just a lot of what do we call it? Thirst trapping. So there's a lot of that going on as well.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:48:14]:

Fair enough.

Kathy Houston [00:48:15]:

Yeah, there's there's a lot of that. And, you know, comparing thirst trap of this one to that one to that one. Oh, no, I like that one better, that kind of thing. Just purely sexual orientation on there. But there are actual people that come on there and say, I'm with my girlfriend, and we do this, that, and the other thing. And they do, like, little gimmicks, and they do little definitions. And actually, several women have been discovered on there and gotten record labels. Fletcher was on lesbian TikTok, and that's how she got discovered. So it's cut some of the kind of cool, good stuff about TikTok. I mean, people say TikTok, whatever, but there's actually a lot of good things that happen for people's business, their careers. There's a lot of good stuff on there.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:48:57]:

I have to ask you two questions. Number one, who introduced you to TikTok? And number two, how many hours a week do you lose to scrolling on TikTok?

Kathy Houston [00:49:07]:

Okay, so we limit ourselves. We have a time limit.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:49:11]:

Okay?

Kathy Houston [00:49:11]:

And actually, my wife discovered it for teacher TikTok, just for fun teacher stuff. So our feed originally started it's all algorithmed, and it's very scientific. We started in teacher TikTok, and then we said, oh, so what's in lesbian TikTok. Keyed it in the search. Like, we're being bad. What are we going to see? Right? And then here it comes. But it has been very educational as well. And so then the trans TikTok comes up, and then the drag queen TikTok comes up, and then the makeup artists come up, and then all kinds of other stuff comes up, the dancers. So it actually has turned out to be a good thing. A lot of times we use it just for funny videos of cats and dogs and stuff like that, too. But when we go on TikTok, we'll go on maybe two nights a week for about an hour. So that's it. Now, during the pandemic, we may have done a little bit more, especially in lesbian TikTok because we had just gotten into it and we were trying to figure it out. But yeah, we limit. We screen limit, and we're like, okay, time for bed now. Turn it off. Close the iPad. Let's go. I've been struggling to discover myself as a person. My style, what I wear, how I cut my hair, how I present myself, what scent I wear is evolving. I'm evolving into my who I really want to be. The short, spiky haircut was one of my first major moves to kind of like, I'm not going to do the heteronormal thing anymore. I'm not going to do that. Never been a big makeup wearer, never been very femme, never been a dress wear. I've been more of a tomboy all along, but actually coming more into that as just how I dress. I wear my plaid shirt. I'm going to be masked today. I'm wearing my plaid shirt, that kind of thing. And the scent that I wear, we've just recently changed that. I don't wear a feminine scent, so to speak, in the heteronormal world. So that kind of thing has been interesting to explore myself and with my partner and exploring how I want to come across and how I want to present myself and what do I look like and how do I see myself.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:51:20]:

I get the sense that it sounds like it's a fun and liberating experience for you. Is that accurate?

Kathy Houston [00:51:27]:

Yes, it has been very fun and liberating. I'm like, well, do you like this scent? Yes, I like this scent. I could wear this. And she's like, you could. I'm like, okay, I'm going to wear that scent.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:51:41]:

Done. What's next on the gay agenda?

Kathy Houston [00:51:44]:

Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm not getting a subaru. That is not on my agenda. I'm not getting a jeep.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:51:54]:

That's fine. You can draw the line somewhere. If that's it, then that's fine. There are a number of folks who come out later in life for various reasons, whether it's just to themselves or more publicly, and I'm wondering if one of those folks is potentially listening now, wondering what they should do, what would you want to say to them?

Kathy Houston [00:52:21]:

I would want to say, to be true to yourself, you must be true to yourself, because if you're not true to yourself, you're not being true to anybody else around you, and you're only hurting everybody else, so you're hurting yourself, and you're hurting everybody else. So in the long run, I was hurting my husband because I wasn't being true to him and giving him the fulfilling relationship that he could potentially have. And so I had to set him free. He didn't see it that way, and I still don't think he does. But eventually he will be free to be himself and be who he wants to be and find that fulfilling partner and that fulfilling relationship if he chooses to do so. He's now free, and I'm free to be who I am. And if we're not true to ourselves and we're in that stuck, we're not free.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:53:13]:

What's your favorite thing about being in the lesbian community? Are you searching for a PG answer? I wasn't sure what the laugh was.

Kathy Houston [00:53:27]:

Yeah, the laugh was a little bit a little bit of a sexual sexual response there.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:53:31]:

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, so, I mean, it I mean, not to reuse liberation, but yeah, I mean, if there was, like, a sexual liberation or a sexual awakening, I mean, that's valid.

Kathy Houston [00:53:41]:

Absolutely. Yeah, there was absolutely a sexual awakening of what is possible, not possible. Do you like this? Do you want this? What is this? I had to read all these definitions again, I had homework, so I had to go through this book, and I had to read all these definitions and think, would I like that? BDSM type things, bondage and all that kind of stuff. Would you like that? I don't know. I don't think so. Blindfold, feather, tickle, all these kind of things. Just never even thought of those things. Didn't even know these things existed. The bedroom was very vanilla in my previous experiences. So, yeah,

Chris Angel Murphy [00:54:17]:

You had referenced the homework and a book and everything from that first relationship when you were separating from your now ex husband. What were some of the resources that have been helpful to you? So we know that you are the poster child of lesbian TikTok. Like, you're very much a cheerleader for that. But, yeah, what were those resources that if you can recall them, what were those resources that were really helpful for you, especially early on, as you were navigating this community?

Kathy Houston [00:54:51]:

I don't know the names of any of the books, but I really don't. But one was a book about just exploring your sexuality and male and female. And so basically it was a how to orgasm book. What is an orgasm? How do you orgasm? What causes an orgasm? And all kinds of things like that. And then there was another book on exploring your sexuality, which went through all of the different kinds of sexuality. There was a Red Tube video with a gentleman performing oral sex on a woman and explaining it while he was doing it. And it wasn't porno oral sex. They were actually two porn stars, and he actually was explaining it while he did it. And he says, if you see this on porn, it's not real. It doesn't work like that. He says, you're not going to be able to see what I'm doing, because if you can see what I'm doing, she's not enjoying it. And so it was extremely educational. Like, I watched it like, three times. And then there was your nails have to be trimmed. I mean, just all these little things that have to take into consideration on how to perform oral sex effectively for your partner. I had everybody watch it, so we all watched it. Current girlfriend, my other girlfriend, my wife that I have now. Okay, you have to watch this video. It's on red tube and we call it the Guy in the Purple Shirt video. But he's wearing a purple I can't remember the name of the video, but he's wearing a long sleeve purple shirt and she's kind of half naked. And it is instructional.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:56:19]:

What's one Allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

Kathy Houston [00:56:23]:

Put yourself in the other person's shoes. The empathy piece. The guy that just cuts you off in traffic. You're driving. He just cut you off in traffic. He didn't cut you off. He could have been getting to his mother's appointment that he's missed or his mother's in the hospital. The whole understanding, the perspective of the other person. So put yourself in their shoes. Empathy.

Chris Angel Murphy [00:56:49]:

Kathy, thank you so much for reaching out and having such a delightful and vulnerable conversation with me. My only regret is stopping our recording too soon. We got the talking and laughing. Somehow it came up about STIs and. Older communities like retirement homes. And then I learned about a place called The Villages in Florida. It's a retirement complex that is incredibly sex positive. They literally drive around with their cars and golf carts with different color loofas to signal what they're into sexually. I am not making this up, y'all. I also didn't know that upside down pineapples means that folks are swingers. I love it, okay? I love it. It reminds me of the hanky codes in the queer community. The different color handkerchiefs represented different sex acts, and then depending which side of your pants you had it hanging out of meant if you were a top or bottom or switch. So, anyway, to me, it's the hanky codes all over again. But they're loofahs, so it's like, I don't know if I go to Bed, Bath and Beyond again, I see them, I'm just going to look at them differently. Oh, I love it. All right, final three self reflection questions to take with you. Number four, what's a change in my life I want to make, but I keep making excuses. Number five, when's the last time I explored my gender presentation? Is there something I'd like to try? Number six, what's something that gives me joy and happiness seemingly off the charts. Well, folks, that's all for this episode. I want to thank all of the new listeners tuning in for giving us a shot here, and I hope I see you at one of the events that I'm hosting this week. Visit allyshipisaverb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode. And remember, sometimes allyship means putting yourself in other people's shoes.