Building a Balanced Partnership: Sharon Costanzo on Shared Values and Resilience in Marriage

Ever wondered how to maintain a strong, balanced marriage amidst life's chaos? Sharon Costanzo from Respected and Connected joins us to share her compelling journey from an achievement-oriented upbringing to creating a partnership that thrives on mutual respect and egalitarian values. Sharon opens up about the unique challenges she faced in finding a partner who wasn't intimidated by her career in engineering, and how she and her husband navigated the complexities of household responsibilities, especially after becoming parents. Her insights on giving constructive feedback without causing defensiveness are truly eye-opening.

This episode dives into the essence of intentionality in relationships, urging couples to move beyond autopilot behavior that often leads to disconnection. We explore how independent, strong-minded women can effectively share tasks and negotiate within their marriages. Sharon emphasizes the power of assuming good intentions and practicing charitable interpretation. By appreciating the small gestures of care and commitment from your partner, you can build a more supportive and understanding relationship, even during conflicts.

Tune in for heartfelt advice and practical strategies that can transform your marriage through effective communication and mutual support.

Sharon Mentions:
Mindsight by Daniel J. Siegel M.D.

Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship by Terrence Real
 
Find Sharon at Respected and Connected

Find Doug and Leslie at The Vision-Driven Marriage on IG and
Doug & Leslie Davis on FB

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC CREDITS
Theme music: Dead Winter
ASLC-1BEF9A9E-9E9D609662
Artists: White Bones
Composers: White Bones
Audio source: Epidemic Sound

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

Welcome to the Vision Driven Marriage podcast. If you're struggling in your marriage, or maybe you're wondering if it's even salvageable, before you give up or before you let things get too hard, let us come alongside you and help you solidify your marriage. We offer biblical encouragement and insight to help you strengthen your marriage. We offer biblical encouragement and insight to help you strengthen your marriage. Welcome to the Vision Driven Marriage podcast. We're Doug and Leslie Davis. We're really excited about the guests that we have with us today.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Today we have Sharon Costanzo from Respected and Connected, and she's here to share with us a little bit about how she has built a strong marriage with her and her husband. Welcome Sharon. We're here to share with us a little bit about how she has built a strong marriage with her and her husband.

Speaker 1: 0:46

Welcome, Sharon. We're glad you're with us today.

Speaker 3: 0:49

Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:52

There's a lot of things that you share with the couples that you get the privilege to coach and things that you share on your podcast that I know our listeners would really, really benefit from, and so, as you begin the process of telling a little bit of your background, one of the things that I'm really interested in is your advice that you have on the best way that you think a spouse can give feedback without prompting defensiveness and I know that that comes a little bit out of your story, so could you share your story and then how we can give feedback to our spouse without making them feel defensive?

Speaker 3: 1:29

Oh, for sure, For sure. So my story there's so many parts to my story that I feel like are important in how I got to where I am today, but the first part is I grew up in a family with three boys and my parents are both pretty smart, practical people my dad's an engineer and my mom's an accountant. But I grew up, you know, I grew up playing sports and I grew up doing well in school. That was something that was really easy for me. There was a lot of pressure in our family to to do really well in school and to kind of, you know, make the most of that opportunity. I didn't grow up in a cult, in a family culture that really promoted a lot of, I guess you'd say like characteristically feminine traits. You know, I I was really athletic and I was really academic and I also could see I think I internalized this idea that I could see that my mom had given up a lot to be a stay-at-home mom with the kids and I felt like she kind of felt like she gave up maybe a little bit too much to do, that. She kind of had a little bit of resentment about, maybe her lack of being able to have a career and maybe some of the power imbalances in her relationship with my dad. I didn't really she didn't really overtly complain about that, but I just picked up on that. I think it was just a very perceptive kid and I was watching kind of how my parents were navigating their relationship and kind of seeing I think every everyone I talked to as a couple. I think we internalize our parents' relationship and and that how we choose. You know, a lot of the choices that we make in the partner that we choose and how we become adults is is influenced by that. But I could see that and I and I could see also in the culture at large that I grew up in that the things that boys did like to be accomplished and all of that was really highly favored in my culture. And I decided to get an engineering degree to kind of prove I can do anything a boy can do. I graduated early from high school. I actually ended up getting two engineering degrees. I have a master's degree in mechanical engineering.

Speaker 3: 4:04

I graduated from college at 22 and I went out and started my career and, um, and being a woman and an engineer, I had a home and a career. I wasn't really finding a lot of great dating opportunities. Um, because I think a lot of men just felt threatened by me. I think a lot of men grow up especially in Utah or a conservative Christian culture where the man's gonna be the breadwinner and the provider, and I felt like often when I would meet guys or go on a first date or go on a blind date, they would hear about what I did in my career or what I was doing in school and they would kind of deflate a little bit, lose interest very quickly, and so it took me a little bit longer than I expected to find someone who I was interested in, who also wanted to marry me.

Speaker 3: 5:02

I met my husband at work and he was the first guy that I met that didn't seem to be threatened or turned off by by who I was in my career and I also have kind of a strong feisty personality as well. That's another part of it. But he was the first guy that I met that didn't seem like intimidated or turned off by that and I just perceived because of that that we would have kind of what I would call an egalitarian partnership at home, that things would be balanced. You know, I had a career and he had a career. We would get together and kind of work things out, that things in the home would be just as fair and balanced as they were out in our career world. We met at work, so I was very familiar with how he was at work and he was familiar with me. I just assumed that things would naturally fall into place at home and that we would be able to share those family responsibilities in a way that felt fair, so that we could pursue our careers and also have a home that was running smoothly.

Speaker 3: 6:07

And and it just didn't turn out that way.

Speaker 3: 6:12

I was doing, I felt like I was doing pretty much all of the housework grocery, shopping, cooking, laundry all of those things were on my plate in addition to my full time job and I kind of didn't really make a big deal out of it until we had our first kid and when I got pregnant he he just wasn't naturally getting involved in any of those things. He didn't want to go to any of the classes about pregnancy or breastfeeding or anything like that. He just didn't really want to be involved. And then our baby was born and he wasn't really super involved in that. And now, looking back, I can see that he hadn't been modeled what that looked like and I hadn't been modeled how to ask for it. You know my parents didn't really negotiate or navigate conflict at all. They kind of just anticipated. You know, kind of just tried to read each other's minds and stay out of each other's way and not really face head on if things weren't working. Never saw them really talk it through and come up with a mutually satisfying solution.

Speaker 2: 7:29

I think that was just part of that generation too. They didn't talk about. You know, kids didn't see them talk about anything, you know.

Speaker 3: 7:38

Yeah, yeah. And I have so many clients who will say that, like my parents didn't fight, or they fought behind closed doors and I was just in my room feeling really alone and anxious about what was going on and maybe even wondering if it was my fault I've heard that before or my parents fought a lot but they never really resolved anything. Like I. Just, you know, looking, the thing that I did know how to do that I was taught to do as a kid which isn't healthy at all, was to complain about what wasn't going well, or to criticize, to drop hints, you know, to say something like oh who taught you how to sort the laundry? You know, make passive, aggressive comments. So I was definitely doing a lot of that kind of complaining and criticizing and he was not responding.

Speaker 3: 8:38

I mean surprise, surprise he wasn't responding well to that, but I never really sat down and was like, hey, I think that we had different expectations of what this relationship was going to look like and I would like to talk to you about that and find a way that's going to work for both of us. I never did that. I didn't have the skills or even the vision for what that could look like, the confidence there were, so many things. So we were starting to have a lot of conflict over that child care. After our first kid was born, I went to working 30 hours a week instead of 40 hours a week and that was fairly manageable. But I was also feeling like I was carrying much more of the load than felt fair to me and there was getting to be a lot of conflict about that. And and my husband was getting more short and hot. I felt like a little bit hostile with me and and and then we had another child. Our kids are really close together. They're almost they're not quite 18 months apart. That was a little bit of a surprise.

Speaker 3: 9:46

That second one, but and I had been going through a lot of really difficult stuff at work and when my second child was born, I decided to quit my job and stay home and I was then my and my husband was in grad school and working full time. There was just a lot on both of our plates and we just weren't communicating about things very well. When we were talking about it, it was usually an argument, I think he was feeling really hurt and uncared for as well, and it just got to the point where it wasn't sustainable anymore and and we had gone to a couple of couples therapists and kind of tried to navigate things. But I don't think we ever really got to the heart of what was going on and how to deal with it. And I think when my daughter was about 18 months old or so my youngest I had just felt like I was at my breaking point and I said to my husband if this doesn't change, I don't want to be married anymore. We can't keep doing this. And you know, everyone I think has this fantasy that when they set like a hard line boundary, their spouse is like, oh my gosh. Thank you so much for telling me, but that's not the way it happened. You know, I think he kind of he kind of questioned and tested that boundary. He stayed in his dad's basement for a little while just a few weeks we were kind of trying to figure things out. We started working with a new couples therapist and working on some things.

Speaker 3: 11:19

But it was really when I started decided to start my coaching business. I was meeting with a business coach and I was trying to figure out my niche of who do I want to work with as a coach? And I I thought, oh, I really want to work with supporting working moms I'm kind of the first working mom in my generation and helping women navigate that and but every time I would talk to somebody to do like a market interview, they would talk about it's about the imbalance at home. I, you know, I feel like everything. I'm responsible for 100% of everything at home and I'm working on top of that.

Speaker 3: 11:57

And I said to my business coach I said I don't know how to help women like this, because pushing my husband to be a partner at home has almost ended my marriage. And she said to me she said you said push almost ended my marriage. And she said to me she said you said push. And that was like such a light bulb moment to me like, oh, pushing doesn't work, maybe there's another way to handle this and I love that your podcast is called the vision driven marriage, because that's something that resonates with me. So much is like okay, if I want this kind of a marriage and pushing for it isn't working, what can I do to like create a vision for the kind of marriage I want and invite my husband to be part of that kind of a marriage?

Speaker 2: 12:49

to come along beside you and move towards that goal together, right yeah?

Speaker 3: 12:56

Yeah. So that was really an epiphany, like and we talk about it so much, you know, as business owners in marketing and sales like you want to pull and invite people to you to create the kind of world that you want to live in with you, and I'm sure, like my husband would never in our whole marriage say, oh yeah, I want to be the kind of husband that comes home and sits on the couch after work while my wife does everything. Like he didn't want that either. But but he didn't have a vision of what something different looked like either, because we both grew up in homes where the division of labor was very gendered and so we we both had to kind of figure out that vision aspect of things. The vision first, before the strategy is kind of what I say. Like we both really want most of the same things, but often we disagree on what it, what we need to do to get there.

Speaker 2: 14:02

Yeah, what it looks like to get there. Yeah, we've often talked about getting off of autopilot and it sounds you and the opposite of autopilot is being intentional and creating an atmosphere that intentionally brings spouses together, Because when we're on autopilot we will automatically drift apart. There won't be anything Cause like, if you're going to do something together, you have to do it intentionally together. That sounds like the direction in which you and your husband moved then was into that intentional lane.

Speaker 3: 14:41

Yeah, yeah for sure. And I think also the thing that I had kind of assumed the whole time was, you know, me being like the owner of all the tasks that invite, like having him participate in everything, would be him doing it my way, you know, rather than him having his own opinions and ideas of of how things could be as well. That like negotiation aspect of things.

Speaker 2: 15:08

But I think when you grow up as an independent, strong minded female, that often happens you know for sure. Yeah, I think that that's a characteristic of, and it's not often celebrated in society, but it is. It should be, I think sometimes, you know yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:36

Well, like I have a really feisty, strong-willed daughter and I love that about her, Like I wouldn't want her to be any other way than that and I do I really wish that I could have been celebrated in that way, the way that I hope that she feels celebrated and appreciated.

Speaker 2: 15:53

I can understand that. I can appreciate that. I grew up at, you know, fairly independent and I taught my daughters to be independent and and I think that we were on the same page most of the time about that, you know, but it and my, in my estimation what estimation? What I would say to him most of the time isn't I need you, it's I want you. You know, and most men have the desire to feel needed, you know, and they want to be needed, but I'm not a needy person.

Speaker 1: 16:27

Well, and the root of the issue that you're speaking to, I think, resonates with a lot of our listeners, because there's two things that you've mentioned that are really big as we dive back in.

Speaker 1: 16:37

One of them is we tend to do things the way that we experience them as children, unless we have an intentional plan to do it differently, and sometimes we don't even realize that we're operating out of the structure that we grew up in, because we're just coasting along. But the second thing is, I think a lot of the women who are listening right now can relate completely to what you've shared. Women in Mystique was written by Betty Friedan that this is something that is pretty common for all you know, for the majority of women, the struggle with a career and home and the concept of wanting help but feeling ownership, and all of these things are so common. But it doesn't make them any easier when you're in the midst of the struggle that it generates, and so, when you're trying to figure out how to do it better, what were some of the things that you learned on? How you could share with your husband what needed to change without him feeling like he had to put up a wall or defend himself?

Speaker 3: 17:46

I think when you approach the task. This was another big aha moment for me when I learned about the principle of like charitable interpretation or assuming good intent, Like that was not a concept that I learned in my home growing up up. Like you know, you can imagine I was. I was raised by pretty strict, rigid parents but, um, just assuming the best in my husband and the best of his intentions because for a long time I was assuming that he was intentionally taking advantage of me, like um, that he knew he should be doing more and he was choosing not to do it to punish me for how. You know how I was approaching things and you know there could be retaliation is a very common losing strategy in our relationships but I don't think it was so intentional and premeditated as I assumed it was and premeditated as I assumed it was, and so even just like dropping that, and I always think now, like when I have to approach my husband with something like whether I say it or not, saying like I know that you care about me and you don't want to hurt me I don't have to always say that, but it's become like a practice in my relationship. It's become something that I've had to do really intentionally to look for ways that he is showing up for me and showing that he's committed to our relationship and not letting the little tiny frustrations that I have with a relationship define the relationship. So I kind of have to, like consciously, make it a daily practice to say, oh, you know what he? He helped get one of the kids up and dressed before school this morning. He calls me on his lunch break. He, you know, he knows that date night's important to me and he brings it up. So, even if we're still having conflict about one issue in the relationship, to look at the bigger picture of how is he showing that he's invested in our relationship? And then when I do approach him with something, it's like hey, I know that you're acting in good faith here and I want to talk about this one issue that we're having and see what we can work out.

Speaker 3: 20:09

So that really helps with the defensiveness, because men have this wound too, I think, in their relationships. I think especially men in my generation and the men that I work with, because I think it's, you know, just in the last 50 years or so it's been a little bit safer for women to be a little bit more unhappy in their relationships and expect a little bit more. But I think these boys that are growing up in these homes are internalizing that too, Like I don't want my wife to be unhappy with me the way that my mom's unhappy with my dad or, you know, if there's divorce or something. Like I don't want to be the bad guy. I think so many men have that wound of if my wife's unhappy with me, I'm the bad guy, and so we as women can be really compassionate towards that and reassure them. I don't think you're a bad guy, I think you're a great guy and really, really important.

Speaker 2: 21:09

I mean several interviews that we've done with other couples. They were talking about being about having that insecurity that they've carried in from you know, in from boyhood, and oh, what an opportunity we have as wives to you know, speak into that insecurity and dispel it. You know we have an incredible opportunity there.

Speaker 1: 21:32

Well, but and equally so, you know, men, those of you who are listening you have the opportunity to recognize, you know, one of the things that has been shared so far today seeing all the things that your wife's doing and seeing all of the places where she may be feeling an extra burden. Recognizing those things and acknowledging them intentionally and out loud does a lot to getting the conversation where it's open, so that you can actually do something together that makes a difference that's long lasting.

Speaker 2: 22:07

Yeah, for sure. It's like going into those conversations with a lot of gratitude.

Speaker 1: 22:12

You know and acknowledgement, and I think you know when we date it's pretty easy for us to point out all of the things that we appreciate about you know, our future spouse, and I think that sometimes life gets so busy we aren't as intentional as we should be about saying those things out loud and acknowledging I see these great things you're doing, I see these wonderful places where you're thriving, before we come in and say now let's deal with the place where we're struggling.

Speaker 2: 22:43

And I think any you know, husband or wife, anybody who I mean. We all deal with insecurities, don't we? And at some level or another, for some reason or another, you know and we all need someone speaking into those insecurities with a word of kindness and a word of acknowledgement. And you know validation, you know.

Speaker 3: 23:04

Yeah, I think you know I love when my husband reassures me. You know that that I'm okay and we're okay and and of course I mean it's. I think it's so easy when you get fixated on the issues in your relationship to not see your spouse as wanting and needing and deserving that kind of reassurance as well.

Speaker 2: 23:24

So how do you express your needs without coming off as needy? I know that's one thing. I I I try really hard not to be emotionally needy and I think part of that is, you know, coming growing up in the background, that I grew up in. Being emotionally needy was not, um, was not accepted Like it. It wasn't on anybody's radar and nobody was getting a pat on the back and oh honey, you know you're okay Kind of thing when you know the tears were flowing and so so I work really hard not to be emotionally needy, you know. But this is, with this being a different realm, like this is. This is in the physical realm of being needy, like I need help, help do the laundry, you know. So how do you, how did you approach that with your husband of of being able to express your needs and not come across as needy?

Speaker 3: 24:16

Yeah, I think one one thing that has been really helpful for me and for my clients is to kind of have a little backup plan in your pocket. So, for example, if, like, I want to go out and do something on a Wednesday night and I want to ask my husband, can you watch the kids so that I can go and have some time to myself, then I can say, hey, can you watch the kids on Wednesday? If you're not available, I can, will get a babysitter. So the reason and the reason why I think this is so helpful is because when you come and express your needs to your spouse and they are the only one who can ever meet that need, and if they don't meet that need, it means that you don't get your needs met Then there's a lot of pressure there.

Speaker 1: 25:08

Mm-hmm, then there's a lot of pressure there.

Speaker 3: 25:09

But if you have a backup plan, then they're like, oh, she's going to be okay and I can say yes, out of generosity instead of obligation. It just makes it easier for people to say yes when they're when they know that you're not going to fall apart if they say no. So and I think sometimes people are like, oh, what if they always? You know what, if you always have to go to your backup plan Every single time? You're always going to their backup plan and I do think there's a time to have that conversation.

Speaker 3: 25:43

But I think, first of all, it's helpful to get kind of grounded in yourself of, like, this one moment in time is not going to make or break the relationship. They're not going to be available to me 100% of the time. I'm hoping they'll be available to me more than 50% of the time, but I'm going to be okay if they say no in this one instance. That just creates a little bit more room and a little bit less pressure around that one instance and a little bit more room and a little bit less pressure around that one instance and a little bit more room, like I said, for that generosity, like she's going to be okay whether I say yes or no.

Speaker 2: 26:19

I think a lot of times we go into those conversations not having a backup plan, with the expectation that the spouse going to be the one to fill that need, and maybe that that need is not detailed out. You know, because watching the kids, like there's there's other needs that are around, that like I need to be able to get away and have some girl time or have some downtime, like there's, you know, there's other needs that are being met there than just I need you to watch the kids, you know. And so then there's that expectation, and when those expectations are unspoken and then they're unmet there's, there can be a lot of um, a lot of damage that can undermine the relationship right there.

Speaker 1: 27:04

Right and when. I love I love the approach that you just explained, because I know that in our relationship there've been times where Leslie didn't even voice the need that she had, because she was concerned that, because of what I was dealing with, I wouldn't be able to meet that for her and she didn't want to come across as being somehow needy. Instead of realizing that, you know, recognizing that she had a need, we could have worked together to figure out how to meet that, and she was just so concerned about not burdening me that she didn't express it as well as she could have.

Speaker 3: 27:42

Oh yeah, and I think that's really common with couples. I think it's again kind of what we were talking about how you get the strategy ahead of the. The core issue, you know, like you said, when you're asking your husband to babysit the kids, it's, it's. I need some down time, I need some time away from the family, I need to be social with other people and I need to know that you support that need, you know, in some way or another. And when we, when we allow our spouse to have that conversation with us, understanding like what the request is and what the underlying need is, like you're saying, you can be a little bit more creative about how you meet that need. And now your spouse is, is more aware in general, general, moving forward of that and looking for maybe, opportunities to help and support you in that way as well.

Speaker 1: 28:37

Can you share with us a few mistakes that women make when they're trying to improve their relationship with their spouse? Some of the things either through your experience or some of your experience with coaching other women. What have you found are some of the common mistakes that are easy to make?

Speaker 3: 28:52

Yeah, I think one of the very biggest ones and it was a mistake that I made and I support almost all of my clients with this in some way or another is not recognizing the small incremental improvements.

Speaker 3: 29:10

We kind of want things to change overnight.

Speaker 3: 29:13

You know, we've probably been thinking about something and being frustrated for several months, if not multiple years, and when we finally get the courage to rock the boat and bring it up, we want to see the change immediately and the progress is going to be incremental.

Speaker 3: 29:33

It's going to be small, you know. It's going to be like I said to one of my clients on a group call that we had the other night it's going to be maybe your husband saying no, I can't do that right now, instead of him just giving you the silent treatment. You know, instead of him just giving you the silent treatment, you know, celebrate every time you get something different than what you got before, even if it's, you know, picking up the socks and putting them in the hamper, instead of doing all a week's worth of laundry. You know, because when you do, when you acknowledge and celebrate tiny improvements, then it makes people more motivated to continue working. You know, I think it's so hard. It's so hard to do because you've been frustrated for so long. But I think you want to put yourself in your spouse's shoes and when you can see that they're making an effort to not squash that effort with that kind of perfectionistic, all or nothing thinking, so you mean the whole problem won't be fixed in two hours?

Speaker 1: 30:40

The Hallmark Channel's lied to us, it's lied to us, it is.

Speaker 3: 30:44

It's a fantasy like that. We're going to have this miraculous turnaround and, just like you said, we see it on the movies like, oh, he changed overnight and everything's better now, and I think it's also helpful. My kind of wise, adult, logical self, I know that I don't change overnight, but we, we just sometimes we just don't translate that into our relationships.

Speaker 1: 31:21

Well, and I love the reminder to look for the incremental improvements, because there's great encouragement there if we're aware of it, and it can be so frustrating if we're not, because we're looking for maybe something that hasn't happened yet and not acknowledging what has, and so that's a good, good word.

Speaker 3: 31:40

Yeah, and I think another thing along those same lines that you can ask yourself and this is a really hard question to ask yourself, but it's really, really valuable is what am I doing that's making it hard for my spouse to give me what I want? And if you ask them that they'll, I I think most of the time they'll appreciate your bravery and vulnerability and receptivity and be like kind in the way that they deliver that. Yeah, you know, it's hard for me to help with housework because you criticize how I do it, or it's hard for me to take the kids for a weekend because I don't. I don't do everything the way that you want me to do it and I'm afraid of getting in trouble. So if you can ask them like, what, what do I do to make it hard for you to give me what I'm asking for, and really reflect on that, that can help to ease some of that defensiveness and tension as well.

Speaker 2: 32:43

And I think one thing that makes that hard too is that we're not in practice of looking at things from other people's point of view, you know, and so that's a skill that you know. It takes practice to say, okay, I'm going to look at this from my spouse's point of view, and there might be that might be all the insight that the process needs is just like, okay, I'm going to look at this from his point of view. Oh gee, you know, I really am a grouch, you know, before nine o'clock in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet, you know that kind of thing, and so there's a lot of introspection that could be done even before that conversation takes place, you know, just by switching points of view. This has been an amazing conversation, Sharon. We've appreciated having you on the podcast. Tell our listeners, well, let me ask you this before we sign off what books are on your nightstand? What are you reading right now that you could share with our listeners?

Speaker 3: 33:49

my nightstand. Well, the book that's on my nightstand right now. It's called Mindsight and it's talking about, you know, kind of how we recognize our thought patterns and make make changes to those reactive thought patterns. What else do I recommend most people to read? I'm a huge fan of Terry real. He's one of my mentors and the book us that he just published I think it was in 2022. It talks about, you know, fostering that sense of we in the relationship. That's a really great book as well.

Speaker 2: 34:21

Oh, awesome, awesome. And where can our listeners find you?

Speaker 3: 34:25

So my podcast is called respected and connected and that's my website as well respectedandconnectedcom. I'm also on Instagram and it's respected underscore and A-N-D underscore connected on Instagram.

Speaker 2: 34:42

Awesome, and I'll link that all in the show notes, the books and everything, so our listeners can just click and find out more information about those that you shared, and so very good.

Speaker 1: 34:53

And once again, we want to thank you so much for joining us. It's really been a pleasure.

Speaker 3: 34:58

The pleasure has been mine. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 35:00

And we want to thank all of you for listening. This is the Vision Driven Marriage. We're Doug and Leslie Davis and we continue to pray that God will solidify your marriage.