Exploring Human-Primate Coexistence with Dr. Paula Pebsworth: A Journey from the Vineyards of Napa Valley to the Wilds of Africa, Asia and Beyond

In today’s lecture, Dr. Paula Pebsworth joined us from her home in Texas to give a lecture titled “You never know where life will take you: an interdisciplinary and unconventional path”.

This lecture was extra special for me, because Paula and I were grad students together at Kyoto University’s Primate Research Institute over a decade ago, both under the supervision of Mike Huffman. I’ve missed my friend over the intervening years, along with her family - who also play a feature role in her talk - so it was wonderful getting back together for this event.

Apart from the normal dose of nostalgia that such reunions can bring, I was reminded of what we lost when the Primate Research Institute was restructured in the spring of 2022 - a place where minds met and grew together, where budding and rooted primatologists alike were mixed and incubated and sent off to do amazing things wherever life after PRI took them.

And what an interesting life Paula has had, both before and after her time in Japan. Paula is an independent scientist who has had professional roles as a Research Coordinator for Wildcliff Nature Reserve in South Africa, a Post-doctoral Research Associate and adjunct associate at the National Institute of Adv. Studies in Bangalore, India, a Scientific Coordinator at Cloudbridge Nature Reserve in Costa Rica, and a head scientist for an environmental consulting firm in Saudi Arabia.

Through it all, she has worked toward tackling the monumental challenge of managing human-nonhuman primate conflict and coexistence, the topic she spends most of the lecture covering in tantalizing detail.

But would you imagine that she started out her professional career as a chemist testing wine in the California vineyards? It doesn’t seem obvious, but Paula manages to weave this background into her studies of antiparasite strategies and self-medication in chimpanzees and baboons.

And no, she wasn’t getting her subjects drunk on wine! But you’ll have to stay tuned to find out how it all makes sense in the career of this thoughtful and innovative primatologist.

Now, Paula is just about to pack up and head over to Japan herself in a few days, for an event where she’ll be speaking about human-nonhuman primate coexistence at Kyoto University. I can’t wait to meet up with her there and catch up.

Paula has also agreed to follow this lecture up with a proper conversation for the primateCast, so stay tuned for part two in the near future. I took a lot of notes during her lecture and have a lot of things to follow up on.

The PrimateCast is hosted and produced by Andrew MacIntosh. Artwork by Chris Martin. Music by Andre Goncalves. Credits by Kasia Majewski.

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Transcript

Andrew MacIntosh: 0:00

Welcome to the Primate Cast Origins. Today's origin story follows the journey of Dr Paula Pebsworth from wine chemist to human, non-human, primate, conflict and coexistence consultant. The thread line after the tune Evolution, communication, cognition, conservation, behavior primatology typically primates become the monkey.

Andrew MacIntosh: 0:40

Well, hello everyone, and once again, glad to have you back in the audience for this episode of the Primate Cast Origins, where we hear from experts in the field of primatology and beyond about how they got started and became some of the most influential folks around. I'm your host, andrew McIntosh, from Kyoto University's Wildlife Research Center, and this episode is taken from our international primatology lecture series Past, present and Future Perspectives of the field. This is the brainchild of Dr Michael Huffman and, like our normal programming, is brought to you by PsyCASP. The main goal of the lecture series is to share the origin stories of experienced practitioners of primatology and related fields. To do that, mike Huffman's invited a revolving door of renowned scientists to join us on the program and share their own stories with us. The Primate Cast Origins is our way of sharing those stories right here on the podcast. Unlike our normal interview format, these lectures are being done as part of our PsyCASP seminar in Science Communication, which is aimed at grad students here in the Primatology and Wildlife Science program at Kyoto University. So what you'll hear is a lecture that was recorded in Zoom and generally includes slides, so there are references to visual aids that are not available in audio only format, but for anyone wishing to see the speakers presenting their talks, we invite you to check those out on the PsyCASP TV YouTube channel.

Andrew MacIntosh: 1:58

In today's lecture, dr Paula Pepsworth joined us from her home in Texas to give a lecture titled you Never Know when Life Will Take you An Interdisciplinary and Unconventional Path. This lecture was extra special for me because Paula and I were grad students together at Kyoto University's Primate Research Institute over a decade ago, both under the supervision of Mike Huffman. I missed my friend over the intervening years, along with her family, who also play a feature role in her talk, so it was wonderful getting back together for this event Now. Apart from the normal dose of nostalgia that often accompanies such reunions, I was also reminded what we lost when the Primate Research Institute was restructured in the spring of 2022. It was a place where minds met and grew together, where budding and rooted primatologists alike were mixed together and incubated and then sent off to do amazing things wherever life after PRI took them. And what an interesting life Paula's had both before and after her time in Japan.

Andrew MacIntosh: 2:54

Paula is an independent scientist who's had professional roles as a research coordinator for Wild Cliff Nature Reserve in South Africa, a postdoctoral research associate and adjunct associate at the National Institute of Advanced Studies in Bangalore, india, a scientific coordinator at Cloudbridge Nature Reserve in Costa Rica and even head scientist and team leader for an environmental consulting firm in Saudi Arabia. Most recently, but through it all, she's worked toward tackling the monumental challenge of managing human and non-human primate conflict and coexistence the topic she's been most of her lecture covering in tantalizing detail. But would you imagine that she started out her professional career as a chemist testing wine in the California vineyards? It doesn't seem obvious, but Paula manages to weave this background into her studies of anti-parasite strategies and self-medication in chimpanzees and baboons. And no, she wasn't getting her subjects drunk on wine. But you'll have to stay tuned to find out how it all makes sense in the life and career of this thoughtful and innovative primatologist.

Andrew MacIntosh: 3:55

Now Paula's just about to pack up and head over to Japan herself in a few days for an event at Kilt University where she's going to be speaking about human, non-human primate coexistence. I can't wait to meet up with her after to catch up. But Paula's also agreed to follow this lecture up with a proper conversation for the primate cast. So stay tuned after this lecture for part two in the near future. I took a lot of notes during her lecture here and I've got a lot of things to follow up on, but in the meantime, here's Mike Hoffman, as always, introducing Dr Paula Pebsworth to get us started.

Michael Huffman: 4:27

Thanks, andrew. Welcome Paula. It's always nice to see we're often chatting on Zoom these days from each from different parts of the world as we travel around and do things. It's been a great many years, lots of fun work we've collaborated on together in quite a lot of different places. I've got to go to South Africa for the first time to visit Paula and her family, which she was doing her PhD work down there.

Michael Huffman: 4:56

But we actually started back way before that in Colorado. We both have roots in Colorado, spent time there I was born there and Paula spent a lot of time there. So we've kind of met in different parts of the world for different scientific and just fun events. So I'm really happy that Paula can join us in this series. I can only say it's about time. It's the 23rd. You could have been on this much earlier, but I think traveling in different things came in and out of the plans. But anyway, I'm very happy to introduce you to the world, to the PsyCASP, all the people around this planet who will be listening in today and learning from your stories and the work that you've done. Paula, before I go on too long, I'll hand it over to you.

Paula Pebsworth: 5:58

Thank you so much. So first I want to thank the organizers for the invitation and particular Mike Huffman, who I asked in the mid 1990s if he could use a good field assistant. A good deal of time has passed and on the left he's holding my oldest, who is now 24. On the ride he came to South Africa, as he mentioned, and is no doubt offering up a joke or a pun. We worked together in Uganda. In South Africa, mike served as my advisor when I was working on my doctorate at Kyoto University's Primate Research Institute, and while in Japan, most days would begin with coffee and conversation with him. My dad is on the top right. He loved wildlife and he shared his love with me on the little one below him through National Geographic magazines. Several issues were always lying around, and I recall this particular issue with Jane Goodall on the cover and thinking to myself man, I'd like to do that. I didn't know anyone who studied wildlife, let alone primates, so I stuck that idea away. This is a map showing areas of the world that have been important to me.

Paula Pebsworth: 7:11

I'm from the US and received my bachelor's from the University of Iowa, which is in the star in the middle, and afterwards I moved to California that's on the west coast and then moved to upstate New York where I received my master's from the State University of New York. My talk will discuss skills and abilities that I acquired when I was younger and then later used in my doctorate, post-doctorate and independent research, because I've worked in several countries. I'll also discuss quality of life, which affects one's ability to do good research and that country's willingness or ability to co-exist with primates. After receiving my bachelor's degree in biology, I moved to California. Later I took a few classes in enology, which is the study of winemaking. Later I worked as a wine chemist at two wineries in Napa Valley and another one in Australia. I spent my days testing sugar and alcohol content in wine tough job moving wine around power washing stainless steel tanks and working 15 plus hour days during harvest. This taught me about the struggles of farmers, the science behind crop production and the hard work required to produce an agricultural product. I liked winemaking, but I longed to do something more related to wildlife, so I took a position conducting environmental impact assessments for plants be they rare and endangered or alien, invasive and animals. We used a lot of variety of tools like quadrats and sherman life traps. I also worked in a project that looked at roosting preferences in bats. I learned how to use misnets, attach small transmitters to bats and follow them using radio telemetry.

Paula Pebsworth: 9:07

I went back to get my masters and, because of my chemistry background, I worked on a project that looked at heavy metals in soil. For over 60 years, farmers applied the pesticide lead arsenate to protect apples from what was once called gypsy moths. Later, the trees were removed and housing developments were planned. My research sought to answer the question where did the lead and arsenate go? Were these safe places to live here? I learned how to collect and process soil samples and how to use several analytical instruments like atomic absorption, spectroscopy and inductively coupled plasma. I was careful to collect soil samples around the apple tree and realized that the concentrations were highest along the drip line. Soil samples were taken at three depths, so I could see that lead concentrations were highest at the surface, where they were bound up by organic matter. The arsenic, on the other hand, was traveling and was highest at lower soil levels.

Paula Pebsworth: 10:15

I enjoy lab work, but I didn't want to do only lab work. My husband's job took us to Italy and while there, I had the time to ponder what did I want to do next. I kept thinking about primatology and I had read about Pat Wright's work in Madagascar. I decided to write her and ask if I could volunteer in my time. To my surprise, she said yes. I spent a few months at Rana Mofana following golden bamboo lemurs and documented their movements and feeding behavior. This was many years ago. We slept in tents bathed in rivers and had no running water or electricity. Eating with the outside world wasn't easy and the food was basic. I managed to pick up Giardia, and others came down with dysentery and hepatitis. It was here that I began thinking about coexisting with wildlife.

Paula Pebsworth: 11:11

Madagascar is home to 15 genera of living lemurs and you can see the map that's on your left and, as of 2023, there were more than 30 million people living on the island of Madagascar. How will the needs of both people and lemurs be met on an island? At this year's IPS meeting in Malaysia, I learned about some amazing initiatives that are designed to help people, which, in turn, helps lemurs, and in this program, people can earn conservation credits, so they get credits for working in a nursery, credits for planting trees, and those credits can, in turn, be used to buy things like bicycles and sewing machines and improve the quality of their life. Oops, I'm going to go back. Bamboo lemurs eat a diet pie and cyanide and I was talking with another researcher about diet and health. He recommended that I reach out to my cuffman as he was studying sub-medication in chimpanzee disease. I remain grateful to Pat and am glad that I had the courage to write her, as in a letter, this was pre-email. The next International Primatological Society Congress will be held in Madagascar in 2025. I hope you have the opportunity to visit this amazing country and that you'll also write to people you admire and ask about potential opportunities at their site. So I wrote my cuffman and he told me that he had a new site in Uganda and if I could get funding I could work with him in Badongo.

Paula Pebsworth: 12:51

I applied for and received a Fulbright scholarship and came to Uganda in 1998. We looked at fecal parasites, diet, geology and behavior. I had the pleasure of working with Joseph, jacob and Gusham several of their amazing field assistants. I grew to greatly appreciate Gusham's encyclopedic knowledge of chimpanzees he's the one at the bottom right and with Sarah Young I also investigated soil eaten by pregnant women and what property soil possesses In many places in Africa. You can see this picture that's in the bottom. You can find pregnancy clays at the markets, and so we were interested in learning more about pregnancy clays and about the people that use them, using camera traps.

Paula Pebsworth: 13:41

I looked for more information on chimpanzee geology At this particular site. When the soil is soft and moist, the chimpanzees dip their fingers into the soil and lick it off. They also suction up clay-infused water. They create and use leaf sponges to collect clay-infused water and break off chunks of soil and either eat it there or take it to go. I believe age, class and reproductive status is important, so we documented who came to the geology sites. As you can see, adult females and juveniles spend the most time eating soil. Interestingly, this is the same patterns that we see in humans.

Paula Pebsworth: 14:27

Using analytical equipment, I tested the soils to determine particle size, which is the percentage of sand, silt and clay. We also looked at the type of clay, as well as various minerals. There is a huge difference in the amount of sand present in these soils. I don't know about you, but if you've ever eaten any soil but 86% sand must feel really terrible in the mouth. We also conducted tests to determine whether these soils could add soil or plant secondary metabolites like phenolics. Here you can see that soil from Ybira, the bar on the far left, does much better job than soil from the other two geology sites on the reserve. It's almost on par with pharmaceutical grade Marilinite. When it comes to adsorbing phenolics, we also looked at bioavailability of iron, a soil analysis that uses a digestion which mimics intestinal biochemistry. Here we had an interesting result the soil that could adsorb phenolics had very little bioavailable iron. However, three other soils had a surprising amount of bioavailable iron. These three geology sites are at the base of trees and we suspect that tree exudates exudes phytochemicals that enhance iron bioavailability, or that iron was more exchangeable at these sites.

Paula Pebsworth: 16:03

I wanted to know when given a choice, which soil would chimps pick? Would they pick the soil that's high in clay or the soil that's high in iron? So to answer this question, we designed a field experiment. We created experimental stumps and placed these two kinds of soil inside. We monitored the experiments with camera traps. The experiment was designed for chimps, but you can see from the title that chimps weren't the test subjects. When you begin an experiment in the wild, you have no control over who participates. It didn't take a group of black and white colobus long to find the experiment. We had placed approximately five kilograms of the two different types of soil in each stump. When I returned, the soil high in clay was completely empty and the other untouched. I added an additional five kilograms of soil. The next day it was empty again. In short, they consumed 9.67 kilograms of soil high in clay in 3.4.33 hours.

Paula Pebsworth: 17:18

In the computer, in the camera trap videos, we can see aggression. Some individuals had less access. Younger ones were pushed away, excluded or chased. Who would have thought that there would be so much competition for soil? While in Uganda, I always also had the opportunity to teach field assistance how to test water quality. I also visited the local schools and markets to better understand life in this part of world and met with farmers to learn about various strategies that had been implemented to reduce crop foraging.

Paula Pebsworth: 17:55

Poexisting with wildlife in Uganda is a struggle. Animals leave the forest and forage on crops, in particular corn, cassava beans, sugarcane and mangoes. On the other hand, people enter the forest and set snares for bush meat. For the most part, people are tolerant of chimpanzees, but they are not tolerant of the bones. Tolerance is shaped by many factors. How much we like an animal is an important one. Several strategies have been trialed to reduce conflict guarding, early warning, detection, plant barriers, trenches, lights, nets, live traps to capture damaged causing animals and several types of simple fences. While not the target of snares at one time, almost 15% of the chimpanzees had a snare injury. To decrease snare use inside the forest, goats and vet care were provided to people that agreed to stop setting snares. As I understand, despite these strategies, the struggles continue.

Paula Pebsworth: 19:02

Badongo is a wonderful field station. Each researcher has their own room, and a 55 gallon drum filled with water is warmed, making for a much appreciated shower at the end of the day. Meals are basic. Communication has vastly improved. When I first came to Badongo, I would send Mike a fax asking various questions and giving him updates. Two weeks later I would receive his reply. As of late, you can get email and camp and even Skype. Malaria is still a thing, so come with malaria prophylaxis.

Paula Pebsworth: 19:42

In 1999, I became a mother and three years later had a second child. Being a mom taught me a tremendous amount about development and behavior. I like to think that it's made me a more observant and a better researcher as well. I can't help but give out mothering advice, so there's a bit of that in this talk as well. I thought about site considerations before having children, but they become more important once I considered bringing my family to the field. Quality of life is shaped by it helps shape the quality of your research. Here are a few things young researchers might consider when choosing a site. I think about the field station, infrastructure, diseases that are present, access to clean drinking water, access to health care, food, transportation, political stability and crime.

Paula Pebsworth: 20:42

When my children were six and nine, I saw an ad on PIN, which is the primate information network for a research coordinator in South Africa at a private nature reserve. My husband was just retiring and so I applied. The reserve was owned by the late Dr Ian Giddy and his wife Jenny. During my interview I asked if my family could come as well and their answer was something like why not? We sold our house, put our belongings in storage and we moved to.

Paula Pebsworth: 21:11

The Western Cape. Reserve was home to Chetma baboons and people warned me that I might not find them so interesting after studying chimpanzees. On the contrary, I found them to be fascinating. The reserve sits on top of a huge clay deposit. I soon learned that where road cuts had been made, exposing clay, the baboons ate it. Ian wanted to put a GPS color on one of the baboons. So in addition to learning about geography, diet and parasites, I also learned about trapping, sedating, coloring and spatial analyses. I use these data for my doctoral dissertation at PRI.

Paula Pebsworth: 21:53

Using camera traps, I monitored who came to the geology sites and how long they stayed. I found the same trend as I did in Uganda. Adult females and juveniles spent the most time eating soil. Because baboons have an external marker of pregnancy, I could also look at reproductive state. The pregnant females spent more time at the geology sites than any other baboon, but the number wasn't significantly more. Of all the geology questions I had, this one still vexes me.

Paula Pebsworth: 22:28

The soil that the baboons prefer to eat is white, but there is also lots of pink soil which should be high in iron. With Sarah Young, we tested the soil for bioavailability of iron. Here in this graph you can see the solid line. This is for oh go back, total iron, and so for total iron. This is the really strong digestion. The pink soil is high in total iron, but then when we tested for bioavailable iron, neither the white nor the pink soil had much iron to offer. Again, we looked at whether the soil was able to absorb or detoxify plant secondary compounds. In the soil they can, but it's nothing like what we found in Uganda. Interestingly, the non-preferred soil was better at detoxification it's higher in kaolinite and iron oxides, which can adsorb toxins. I like to think of soil as a multivitamin that's eaten for different reasons by different individuals at different times in their lives.

Paula Pebsworth: 23:41

I analyzed thousands or hundreds of fecal samples to determine whether parasites play a role in zoology. To my surprise, every single sample contained the parasite tricaris. Mike and I discussed parasite transmission and he suggested that maybe the baboons were picking it up at the geophagy sites. I objected, seeing that I did not see feces around the geophagy sites. Once I looked carefully, I found images of baboons with their almost likely dirty hands and feet on the surfaces, frequently eaten by the baboons. With colleagues at the University of Kwasilunital, chris Appleton and Colleen Archer, we tested whether there were parasites on the soil surface. To my horror there was. I say horror because I had tasted the soil and so had my son. The results weren't as bad as I initially thought. We did find parasites, but most didn't contain larvae which were capable of infection. In the slide that's on the right, only B is infected. Nonetheless, the baboons eat acacia seeds off the forest floor and the soil contained lots of tricaris. With my cofman, joanna Lambert and Sarah Young, we published an updated geophagy review. We identified 287 accounts of geophagy among 136 species, adding 79 primate species to the list of those considered in prior reviews. I'm certain that the number will continue to grow.

Paula Pebsworth: 25:24

While in South Africa, I also learned a tremendous amount about alien invasive species and their eradication. In the early 1900s, people brought several types of acacia trees from Australia for wood fuel and for tannins, which are used for tanning leather. In a few decades, these acacias were out, competing native plants and using a tremendous amount of water. Acacia marinesi, found on the reserve, is considered one of the 100 worst alien invasive plants worldwide. In an effort to protect the amazing plants that are part of the Cape Veristic Kingdom, the government began a project to eradicate several alien invasive species. Interestingly, acacia marinesi also made up 39% of the baboon's diet, and this important food resource was being removed.

Paula Pebsworth: 26:20

I also learned about baboon shenanigans. Baboons were constantly trying to get into the cars, houses and they loved taking things like my son's rubber boots and chewing the nail caps off the roof, which later caused the roof to leak. I also had the pleasure of working with six field assistants. I learned about baboon sanctuaries and why there was a need for them. After the end of my study I began noticing that the baboons were moving further and further away from the reserve and not using their usual sleeping sites. I was grateful for the VHF part of the collar as we were struggling to find this huge troop of 115. One day we tracked them to an area really far from the reserve. They had found a huge stand of pristine acacia marinesi and heavily foraging here. As it was far from a rocky outcrop, they began to sleep in these trees. This is highly unusual for chakma baboons. Once the collar came off, I began exploring their movements. I wanted to look at their home range and how it had changed over time. This sent me down a rabbit hole. So many ways to estimate home range. I'm glad that I have an understanding of GIS and encourage all students to have some basic GIS skills.

Paula Pebsworth: 27:48

What about human wildlife conflict in South Africa? Baboons, porcupines, jackals, leopards, otters and other animals are in conflict with people. My neighbor was a dairy farmer and he took the time to explain how it was to live and work with baboons. Baboons eat crops that he'd planted for his cattle. They ate pelletized cattle food and they entered his milking parlor looking for food when the cows were being milked. He had tried many techniques to move them off his property. Scarecrows and copain cannons were just a few. In the western Cape Cape nature, the governing body allows farmers to shoot animals that they deem are problematic. One unfortunate consequence is that when a mother with an infant is shot, if the infant doesn't die, people don't have the heart to kill the infant, and the infant may end up at a baboon sanctuary. There was one sanctuary close by and I had the pleasure of getting to know people whose life work was caring and advocating for baboons and other wildlife.

Paula Pebsworth: 28:54

People sometimes think that if you study primates, the only avenue is academics, but that's not true. In addition to academia, you could also work in biomedical research in a captive setting like zoos and or sanctuaries. While in South Africa, I learned that research was easier when you have potable water, no malaria and access to good health care and a comfortable bed. South Africa struggles to meet their electricity needs and with crime. Nonetheless, it is a gorgeous country.

Paula Pebsworth: 29:30

My family and I left South Africa and headed for Japan. Here I worked with Mike Huffman and his then student, andrew McIntosh, who was just wrapping up his doctorate here was tremendously helpful. He taught me how to analyze fecal parasites, use R and was a friend to my son, who also played guitar While at PRI. I also had the opportunity to learn about different primate research-related projects. It was really fun. Chris Martin was at PRI at the same time and I got to go into his lab and see how he conducted his experiments with the chimpanzees. For a theory of mind, we loved living in Japan, as it is safe, has dependable public transportation, excellent health care, clean drinking water, tasty food and jiggly studio. While here, abigail, my oldest, attended school. It was a wonderful opportunity to learn about Japanese education and culture.

Paula Pebsworth: 30:33

Regarding human wildlife conflict, japan has invested a lot of time and effort to coexist with wildlife, but it remains a challenge. In addition to monkeys, bears, deer and wild boar are a few animals that are in conflict with people. In the 1950s, japan opened monkey parks as a strategy to reduce human conflict. At one time, there were more than 30 monkey parks, but as of 2018, only 10 remain. Much effort has been made to create affordable electric fences, habitat modification and even robotics. I love the idea of this wolf-like robot that can scare off animals from entering crop fields.

Paula Pebsworth: 31:22

Next I had the chance to do a post-doctorate in India with Professor Sindhu Radhakrishna. With three wonderful students we trialed physical, auditory, chemical and psychological deterrence. Some techniques were far more effective than others. We learned about people's perceptions of monkeys and conducted field trials in northern India to reduce crop foraging. We tried four kinds of physical deterrence. On the far left you can see it's a jute rope that's coated with engine waste oil and covered in chili powder and in the middle is a sorry fence. This is predominantly used in southern India. It's just sorry sewn together. And then on the far right this is green garden netting. We initially just used it by itself and then when the monkeys started to climb up the post, we attached thorny branches. And we also had a neighbor that had a brick wall. And that was the fourth one.

Paula Pebsworth: 32:28

We trialed three different kinds of auditory deterrence. This is called in the south a local gun and it's basically made out of PVC pipe. The little barrel comes off and you spray deodorant or body spray into the chamber, put in paper, put the barrel back on and stones and then you can see the little igniter at the far end and it makes a huge noise. But like all other auditory deterrence, they need to be used sparingly because monkeys have to wait to them very quickly. We also tried bio acoustics and they were an absolute bust. But I think that these animals are very used to human noises.

Paula Pebsworth: 33:14

And the last one was in health or sonic device, and I want to just talk a little bit about that. Why we decided to try it was I had heard about a professor at the University of Chandigarh, which is also in northern India, and the resys macaques were getting into the dormitories and also into the pharmacy, and so what he tried was ultrasound and it absolutely worked, but unfortunately it gave the students headaches and the staff headaches, and so he had to discontinue using it. To me it seemed like the perfect opportunity to try it in a rural area where people weren't around. We also tried repellents, and we tried several of them, like neem oil again the engine waste oil and chili powder. And here Rupesh is making deterrent made of rotting eggs and lemons, and it was so incredibly foul we spread it at the front of our crops and the monkeys, you know, could not have cared less. We'd also read that you can take dung and put chilies in them and dry them they call them done briquettes and then burn them when wildlife is around and it's supposed to be irritating and the smoke will move them off. It is incredibly irritating to the eyes. We didn't have any, the wildlife didn't seem to notice, but it absolutely bothered the two students I worked with.

Paula Pebsworth: 34:55

We also tried two types of psychological deterrence Drones and mirrors. I had read that drones were effective against elephants, so we tried them on Reese's macaques and they actually seem to work. I was only able to bring a really lightweight drone, but I would love if somebody tried it with like a heavier duty drone, just to see how effective it is in other parts of the world. And the other thing I had heard about was that they did monkeys don't recognize themselves in mirrors and it can be used to just mirrors can be used to discourage animals from entering an area. We tried placing mirrors on top of walls that the monkeys moved along and at the edge of the cornfields, and this is a little video that I captured. So what we observed was like what I've heard other animals do when given a mirror Wait for it. They they like to look at parts of their body that are not easily observed. So this was not the response I was expecting, but it's really interesting nonetheless.

Paula Pebsworth: 36:19

Cindy and I wrote two papers based on the responses of close to 800 people. We found that choice of mitigation strategy was related to religion, education and conflict history, but surprisingly, not occupation. A small percentage of respondents recommended monkey culling as a mitigation strategy, but the majority preferred that government authorities use translocation or sterilization as a mitigation measure. In a second paper we tried to determine what determines people's willingness to share space with monkeys. We suggest that tangible costs, ie financial losses from primate depredation, primarily drive people's stated tolerance for primate presence. Intangible benefits from primates, like their ecological existence, sentience and religious values, also critically affect attitudes towards existence. When looking at costs and benefits of shared space with monkeys, it's not surprising that the more often monkeys visit, the more likely they are to damage crops, damage property and take food. We also found that 80% of people found that monkeys had a right to exist. Religious value was less than expected.

Paula Pebsworth: 37:44

The last strategy I want to discuss is condition-taste diversion and before I begin I want to thank Dr Deborah Forthman-Quick for helping me a tremendous amount to better understand kind of this complicated phenomenon. Condition-taste diversion is a powerful and lasting form of learning that converts a highly preferred food taste into a disgusting stimulus. Some form of gastrointestinal illness is associated with the taste of food. An aversion is created when the offensive food is avoided. After recovery from illness, condition-taste diversions can be created artificially using drugs that have a side effect of extreme nausea.

Paula Pebsworth: 38:31

These compounds must be undetectable. They must be tasteless and odorless. It doesn't matter what the food item looks like, only what it tastes like. It doesn't matter where the treated food item is placed, only that the entire dose is consumed. Homogeneous foods are ideal and only try to establish one food aversion at a time. There are three main types of aversions. A weaker version animals. They still eat this preferred food, but they eat it in a slow manner. They might sniff it, manipulate it, love, stare at eating with retracted lips. A moderate animals take more than 15 minutes to eat a preferred food. And a stronger version is when animals refuse to eat a preferred food and may even show some uneasiness while near the food.

Paula Pebsworth: 39:31

So we had the opportunity to do some captive studies at a sterilization center before the resys macaques were sterilized, and how that the experiment would go is we would identify a food and the drug that we wanted to use and the dosage is based on their weight. We would offer a treated bait on one day and then the following day we would offer them again a treated bait and if the bait was eaten, we knew that no CTA had been created. If the bait was refused, the following day we offered an untreated bait and then again we could see what strength of aversion did we create. If it was weak, we knew they would eat it right away, but they would eat it in a kind of a disgusted manner. If they ate it after 15 minutes, it was moderate, and if the bait was never eaten, we knew we'd gotten a strong CTA. So here I want to just show you a short video. So this is the day that we're offering the. We're offering an untreated banana. So there's no compound on this and you can see he's smelling it, thinking about it, sets it down, even gives it a little pat, and then he turns his body away from it. So in my book that is a strong aversion.

Paula Pebsworth: 41:09

Our findings were published in this paper. Two of the four drugs could create a condition-taster version estradiol and thiamindazole. The best drug was estradiol Thiamindazole required a lot more compound and it was harder to conceal. The best candidates to work with were juveniles. Despite the fact that it's complicated, I think the strategy holds a lot of promise. The effects can be lasting, no equipment is required after the fact, it doesn't require human vigilance and to avoid that food item is self-imposed. So toward the end of our project, our corn was looking absolutely amazing, and then the wind came and then the pests came. First it was some sort of a soil nematode, and then something else that ate the corn. And then the monkeys came and every day they were starting to eat the corn.

Paula Pebsworth: 42:17

And again I have a renewed appreciation for the challenge of farming. I loved my year in India and had the privilege of learning about their culture, religion, traditions and human-premise conflict. I loved their food world heritage sites and, while slower and less dependable than to pans, made my way around India using public transportation. Regarding human-primate conflict, india is home to 14 species of non-human primates. We asked people how they felt about rhesus macaques, hanaman langours, bonnet macaques and lion-tailed macaques. This was the most disliked, having the highest costs and the lowest benefits. I believe how fond we are of a species. Again, it shapes our willingness to live with them. But, to be clear, of the four monkeys, rhesus macaques are the most challenging. They will take valuable items like your wallet, glasses and smartphone and then barter with you for their return. People complain about monkeys, but approximately 50% of farmers don't even try to reduce crop foraging with the simplest of strategies. The G20 summit was recently held in Delhi. To discourage rhesus macaques from entering the summit, cardboard cutouts of hanaman langours were placed around the building. I don't know if they were successful, but I admire their creativity and out-of-the-box thinking.

Paula Pebsworth: 43:58

Most recently, I had the opportunity to work as a consultant in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Amid El Bouq, pictured on the left, is their best-known primatologist and I had the pleasure of working with him on a Hamidryas baboon project. He worked on a previous study in the late 1980s that estimated population distribution and density. He also interviewed people to understand their interactions with baboons. The 2022 study, which I coordinated, collected comparable data so the results could be compared. In addition to population estimation, we also looked at variation in spatial ecology between urban and wild populations. I put my collaring skills to good use, as we call our 10 baboons to better understand their spatial ecology. Saudi has introduced laws and fines to reduce provisioning of human food waste which has drawn baboons into their cities. With other experts, we recommended additional strategies to reduce conflict, to include sterilization.

Paula Pebsworth: 45:07

I once thought that Saudi Arabia was flat and had lots of sand and camels. While that is true, in some parts of the country, it's also incredibly steep. When thinking about gathering data, topography and climate must be considered. Saudi has no crime and little public transportation, but lots of flights from one side of the country to the other. I am grateful for having had the opportunity to work with Al-Bogh, so this is where I come full circle.

Paula Pebsworth: 45:39

As I told you, when I was younger I studied enology, which is winemaking, botany, chemistry, spatial ecology, ethylogy and pedology, which is soil science. I had no idea that studying soil for my masters would be helpful to my doctorate, but it absolutely was. Nor did I realize that working as a wine chemist would give me insight during my postdoc and be helpful to potential consulting work. Here you can see how I use knowledge from various subjects for my doctorate, postdoctorate and current independent research. You might wonder if I should have been more focused. I am glad that I wasn't.

Paula Pebsworth: 46:25

There's a podcast I really love called Allergies with Ali Ward. She interviewed Dr Lee Burke, who studies the science of laughter. He had the following to say don't ever think you're so diverse that it doesn't pay off. It certainly does, because you get to see and think from different perspectives. I started with degrees in psychology and sociology, and on and on. Then I stumbled into psychoneuroimmunology. I realized how everything was intertwined, interwoven and interrelated. To Dr Burke I would say that I wholeheartedly agree. I think that having a diverse background has been an advantage and has allowed me to conduct research in many parts of the world on a variety of topics.

Paula Pebsworth: 47:19

Now some final mom thoughts. Advice to young people out there Choose your site carefully. I talked about the pros and cons of the different sites I've been at. I also recommend that you choose your collaborators carefully. Get out of your comfort zone and learn new skills and abilities when opportunities present themselves. You won't regret the things you did, but will regret the things you didn't have the courage to try. Human wildlife, conflict will continue to increase and requires creative solutions.

Paula Pebsworth: 47:55

Just I want to thank a few people who have helped me along my way. While primatologists have absolutely shaped my path, it has been greatly influenced by people outside of it. Dr Herb Brunkhorst was my high school biology teacher, who gave me a love of learning and of biology. Dr Jenny Giddy I mentioned, helped me come to South Africa and then to Costa Rica. Dr Eugene Spasiani was my primate of my parasitology professor at the University of Iowa, who I learned a tremendous amount from. Bob Pakota was the first winery that I worked at. He taught me a lot about growing things and the science of taste. Dr Fred Provenza, I met at the University of at Utah State University and has just been an amazing friend to me over the years and is someone who really sees the big picture. And Dr Sarah Young, who taught me a lot about methodology and about the study of soil. And thank you very much.