Dr. Ray Swann and Dr. Mark Dowley

Welcome back to Coaching Conversations, where we delve into the world of education, leadership, and personal growth. I'm your host, Jim Knight, and today, I'm thrilled to bring you a dynamic duo from the Crowther Centre: Dr. Ray Swann and Dr. Mark Dowley.

Dr. Ray Swann, the Head of the Crowther Centre, brings a wealth of experience in education and well-being programs. With a background in medical education and a passion for evidence-informed practice, Ray has made significant strides in educational leadership. From being recognized as a national Top 50 educator to hosting the popular Understanding Boys podcast, Ray's insights are invaluable. He's also a sought-after consultant in identity performance coaching, particularly for medical trainees facing the daunting residency interview process.

Joining Ray is Dr. Mark Dowley, the Associate Head of Staff Development and Instruction at the Crowther Centre. Mark's expertise lies in driving school improvement through enhancing instructional quality. With accolades from VCAA and The Educator Magazine, Mark's impact on teaching and professional learning is undeniable. As a certified Instructional Coach and an Adjunct Lecturer at La Trobe University, Mark's contributions to coaching and staff development are exemplary.

In this episode, Dr. Ray Swann and Dr. Mark Dowley discuss effective coaching programs, focusing on improving classroom instruction. They emphasize the integral role of instructional coaching in enhancing human performance, echoing Atul Gawande's view. Ray and Mark highlight their journey in developing an instructional playbook for excellent instruction and achieving widespread implementation of coaching with positive outcomes.

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Transcript

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The playbook we have now. The main thing was quite constructed. And so we asked our staff, what are the strategies that work well with students at our school? And so we got the whole staff together and asked the questions on sticky notes and all that stuff. And it's amazing when you ask 130 teachers, the quality of the feedback is excellent, that teachers know what works in their school. They know that strategies that work in that context. And so then we collated all that and just mapped it to a framework. You know, we've got to to a learning model here. We might call it a teaching and learning framework. You can use the big four or it can use headings. We've got our right. So I just mapped the strategies to our teaching and learning framework, and then they form the basis of the instructional guidebook, which our coaches use. Now when they're working with individual teachers. I'm Jim Knight, co-founder of the Instructional Coaching Group. And you're listening to coaching conversations where I talk with coaching experts from around the world so that all of us can learn better ways to make an unmistakably positive impact on the people around us. Hi everyone. ICG consultant Jessica is here to share an exciting announcement about our upcoming Paris Institute. The instructional coaching group is partnering with Chapters international and taking the intensive Instructional Coaching Institute to France this spring. Led by Jim Knight, this unique learning opportunity will help coaches and administrators establish a proven foundation for success and develop a deeper and complete understanding of the coaching process and practices. Join Jim Knight and Paris, France for the five day Intensive Instructional Coaching Institute, an event you don't want to miss. To learn more, visit instructional coaching dot com. All right. I am very excited to talk with these two good friends of mine, Mark Daley and Ray Swan from Brighton Grammar in Melbourne. I had the good pleasure of being at Brighton Grammar for a week. Join Coaching Institute, got to see the school and its truly exceptional schools are such a pleasure to be there. These two men Ray amongst his many traits, avid sports fan at least somewhat of a sports fan. Great music fan put on a one man show of the wasteland that sold out there. Mark Multiple shops sold out. All right. Well, there you go. Multiple shows. The Wasteland sold out. I'm not sure that would fly in Kansas, but I'm sure it would fly in Melbourne. That's good. And then, Mark, you have a new book coming out or is it out now? The book on engagement? Yeah, coming on. Classroom Management Handbook coming out in January should be ready to go. Is it from the good people? John Cat, is that it? John Kapooka is a different publisher. It is. It's with our good friends at John Ken and it's written with all we love as well. From the age of just wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Ali I've met a number of times, most recently when I was back in Melbourne a little while back. So if you want to tell us a little bit more than the fact that you like the Championship Magpies and that you've got a book coming up, what are a few more things you could tell us about each of yourselves? Yeah, so I've been a teacher for almost 30 years and I've worked in lots of different schools and universities, you know, big fan of of your work, Jim, and a big fan of coaching and the way in which that I guess changes lots of things, you know from learning outcomes for kids but also to how we relate to each other based around that, you know, the partnership principles. I'm a researcher, so I have an active research life, mostly looking at mental health. Boys, Health and mental health spoke of focus of my work and yeah, well, I'm not doing all that is enjoy you know busy life busy outside life being in Australia, you know fantastic beaches and big sort of mad water sports fan up surfing and diving and swimming and all those kinds of things about you. Mark I'm the same man teacher for 15 years. Physical education and mathematics teacher by trade. My current role is that work is associate head here at Brighton Grammar and the Kravis Center. I love coaching in particular. I love like the importance of my conversations and how we can get better at conversations and how those conversations can build connection both with students, parents and teachers. Research background as well. I was in international education policy back in the day and saying, Being Australian, we just like being outdoors, camping, fishing, running, swimming, all that type of stuff. So thanks for having us here today, Jim. Great. See you again. It's my pleasure. And as I always say, I feel like I'm an honorary Australian anyway, so I feel I'm amongst friends. And you tell me tell me a little bit about Brighton Grammar. It is a special school. And so just to give us a context for it, tell us a bit about the school. So Bowen Grammar was founded in 1882. It's on Tumblr, on country sites in Melbourne, also known as Nam, and that's sort of the big waterway. It's a bit like San Francisco Bay and it's recently named the City. So it's a high, it's got a high socioeconomic status, it's an independent school to about 1500 students these days. And one of the things in the last decade that we've really tried to work on is being a leader in three timezones. So really being cognizant and respectful of the past, obviously working for the kids, working with down the families right now, but also thinking a little bit about the future and what that sort of looks like I think is starting to think a bit about, well, you know, what kind of world are these kids going to inhabit and what are the sorts of skills that they might need. And, you know, to that end, you know, we think about, you know, the structures with artificial intelligence and, you know, as a real new economy these kids are going into and sort of the profound need that they can form and, you know, make positive relationships and that they have social fitness. And for us, the schools had a real emphasis, particularly how we relate is certainly has been doubled down. You know, with Mark coming on board just with coaching because it's been such a key, you know, key thing for us, you know, how kids relate to each other, how the parents relate and how staff relate. It's been a real guiding star. I wasn't sure if you wanted to add anything, Mark, but I think sounds like Rey has got it covered nicely, so I'm glad. Yeah, I can handle that one. I'll jump in a little bit later. One of the things that did impress me about breaking grammar is you're very evidence based in terms of interventions and also not narrowly focused on your treatment. You're I think you're focused on the whole child. So there's a great emphasis on wellbeing along with evidence based teaching practices such as those identified by Hadi. And it's it was impressive to see the ideas that were on the walls and around the building as I went around to say, well, these people are really focused on implementing practices. That's what struck me when I was there. What what led you to do coaching? How did you come to do coaching at break grammar? Well, early days, you know, I think we're looking at what is high performance look like, you know, in a school. And, you know, I guess Mark and his work and Mark was with me a little bit on, you know, some of the and the program's in a moment. But I think for us, you know, we're looking at what's the researchers suggest around, you know, how to improve the quality of the teaching the instruction like it's a lot about what are the you know what are the outcomes for the kids and how do we ensure that they're getting the best education that they can. And I think at the Times is about ten years ago, you know, the positive psychology movement was, you know, really was up and about and interested. And I think the notion of seeing the unconditional good in others and, you know, we've had looking at, you know, Jesse and Ryan and how, you know, motivation works and where that sits. And we're really, really interested in, okay, well, there's two parts. You know, there's kind of the support part of it, you know, in terms of improving a schools performance. And then there's the the clarity. And, you know, coaching does both. You know, it does it provides great clarity, helps, you know, people solve complex problems in difficult environments, in nuanced environments. But it's also really supportive. And so I think our interest initially in coaching was really goal setting and goal orientation, and we had a very facilitative sort of structure around that and we explored, you know, goal setting and wellbeing and goal setting and, you know, teaching and all sorts of things. But then, you know, when when Mark came along, you know, we we wanted to sort of I guess just, just really in a little bit more on on the learner experience because of course, as an institution, that's what we're all about, you know, is is the kids and helping them to learn. So my Landover now to mark just to chat through a little bit more about, you know, the work that we've done and particularly the instructional side of our coaching programs and our interest in that work. Yeah, thanks. Right. So essentially what we tried to do was just improve the quality of instruction in the classrooms because that's, you know, that makes the biggest difference for the young people in our school. So that's why we moved into the instructional coaching model, you know, using the impact cycle, using the partnership principles. And we did that because you mentioned evidence before. Hi everyone. It's instructional coaching group consultant Jessica Wise, host of the Coaching Questions on the Coaching Conversations podcast with Jim Knight. As someone who spends a lot of time in conversation, I can tell you that effective communication strategies are essential for professional success and important for our personal lives, coaches, leaders and educators who make an impact, communicate their message clearly, build healthy emotional connections with others, and maneuver through emotionally complex situations in ways that promote mutually humanizing conversations. Our virtual Workshop Better Conversations includes six beliefs and ten habits to help you have an immediate positive impact on your ability to communicate at work and at home. Join us or learn more by visiting instructional Coaching Icon. A lot of the evidence is coaching is the best way to improve teacher practice and student outcomes. So we try to invest a lot of our resources to working with teachers in the school, in the classroom, very practical, you know, using video and they're building on from that. Once people focused on the instructional coaching program, we realized that our Little Leaguers would benefit from coaching as well. So we took a coaching approach, our middle leaders, and then we thought we actually to steal. Atul Gawande Did you know coaching done well is the best way to improve human performance. We've actually applied to the coaching model, to working with students in teachers, coaching students and students, learning these conversation and communication skills, but by coaching each other as well. So it really is woven into how we improve because we think that coaching Daniel is the best way to do that. Do you want to say anything else about how it's evolved over time at the school where you were and where you are? And maybe you've already answered that question that you said a lot about that. Is there anything else you'd want to add to that? Yeah, like we started pretty small with like one coach who was a literacy coach and then, you know, the people who worked with her said it was amazing. So those four people all told their friends. So the next year we expanded to three or four coaches and every time we measured the impact at the end of each coaching cycle and each year, they said, This is the best thing we've done. It's this professional letting. We're so motivated. Our students are learning more because of it, and so it's grown and grown over the years. And to now we have 14 staff across the school who have some time allocated in their daily load for coaching and then a staff of about 140 teaching staff, about 90% of them are being coached or coached at any one time. So it's really has grown from a very small program, a eight or nine years ago to quite large now. I know you created an instructional playbook which made me feel really happy. How did you tell us a bit about the playbook you created and sort of what it looks like? Well, the playbook we have now, the main thing was coach constructed. And so we asked our staff, what are the strategies that work well with students at our school? And so we got the whole staff together and asked the questions on sticky notes and all that stuff. And it's amazing when you ask 130 teachers the quality of the feedback is excellent and teachers know what works in their school. They know that strategies that work in that context. And so then we collated all that and just mapped it to a framework. You know, we've got we call it a learning model here. We might call it a teaching and learning framework. You can use the big four or it can use Haddie. So we've got her right. So it's mapped to strategies to our teaching and learning framework, and then they form the basis of the instructional playbook which our coaches use. Now when they're working with individual teachers. It's actually a marvelous accomplishment what you've created. And I know you shared it a lot with different people. It's kind of. It's got a life of its own now, almost the playbook. So it's it's it's interesting to hear how it evolved and how it was created. So school wide emphasis on coaching. Now, a lot of people are coaches. A lot of people are being coach more than 90%. What's been the impact of coaching in the school? Well, the impact is really mostly has been in one way that would be, I would say, profound and the impact I think it exists. We can look at the hard measures in terms of, you know, enrollments. And, you know, I guess results. A school academic results have been, you know, the best I've ever been in the history of the school. But I think also just pointing to, I guess, the way in which the school works. And just to pick up a little bit about our early coaching story, you know, before we looked at the instructional model, one of the things that we did was we we did a survey with our students and asking them about, okay, so if you were in trouble, who would you go and see? And all of the people that they had in the school that have like a tutor and that the percentage of kids that were John say that it was extremely low. And we're like, well, how do we you know, how do we improve these conversations? And so we took our tutoring team and we we gave them some really basic coaching training, and then we canceled classes for the day and created a day called Coaching Day. So on that day and there's a bit of pressure, Anna, because I remember vividly, you know, a lot of people think, you know, the kids are going to he's going to comment and want to get coached and tell his story. And, you know, some of the stuff like this is crazy. It wasn't sworn to you, you know, just, you know, a one man show. So they but what was extraordinary was that actually the attendance rate on that day was among the highest in the year. Like, nobody missed it. All the kids were prepared and they came in and they shared stories about their lives and, you know, what was important to them. And of course, the tutors, then the home rotates. The one group teachers all of a sudden had this incredible connection because I'd given each child ten or 15 minutes of time and they had just the impact of that, you know, over time. And people were coming out of the day just exhausted because it was so huge. But just saying it was such a game changer for the school because, you know, just just because of what I learned, you know, and the sense that they had and the profound, I guess, connection they had to the kids and then the families we still get it's now up and we still get a little bit of pushback sometimes, you know, because people it's amazing, you know, with these things. It's been a big lesson for us, I think, is that even though we can see the evidence of all of this stuff, people still are very transactional. People still want to. Okay. But when I do, I'm you know, when they're doing the math or when they're doing the, you know, the literacy, like why are we doing this conversation stuff? And, you know, my one of things I think we always pay attention to is it's, you know, talk about being a leader in three time zones, Like really got to make sure that we don't forget, you know, the reason that we're here is actually because we do things like this. And that actually really, really makes a difference. Went by a little quickly there, but you said your academic performance results are the best I've ever been in over 100 years at the school. Yeah, absolutely. I know. When I go ahead. no, I'm just going to jump in because people might be curious as I had is coaching, you know, how does coaching help with the academic results? And obviously, you know, Mark was talking about what really helps by helping teach speech better. But the other thing that it really helps with is it helps create in foster a sense of belonging, an aspiration that's shared as a collective shared experience in what it means. You know, we have, you know, like all places, we have, you know, neurologically diverse kids and all sorts of things in our space. And so, you know, high performance academics is for some and not for others, for, you know, academic readiness and all sorts of things going on in the mix. But I guess what coaching has done for us is it's it's helped to clarify that actually setting goals and having, you know, and again, one of things that we learned, you know, from your work was, all right. So actually turns out that in hitting goals is often an adjustment face that you need to go through where you need to modify that. But that then becomes a literacy because people are like, okay, so you wanting to do this, But first I need to that, you know, you know, you don't just get to do that first. Sometimes you do these other five things, but like goal orientation and rather it just being again, I'm used to it earlier, but rather than just being transactional, you know, it's like, I want to get this thing, I do this or get that. It's changed that. The language is different. It's like, Well, we think these things are important and, you know, we believe that you've got a contribution to make and this is the direction that we're going in. So we now have two other program is, I think, on the strength of the back of on the back of the strength or other of coaching that have enabled us to, you know, to go, you know, into other territories and that's really in turn help with the academics. I'm not sure. Mark, if you wanted to add anything to that one other part of it from a recruitment side of things, that because we're a school that is now known to invest heavily in its teachers, it's based on conversations, connection, belonging, the quality of teachers that want to come to the school is fantastic. You know, we have teachers who want to come here and they say in the interview, I want to come to a school that helps me become a better teacher. I want to come to a school where I feel like I'm connected to my colleagues. I want to come to a school that, you know, as I'm mixing my motivation research, you know, this autonomy, this this, this mastery. And there, you know, I want to come out of work, a school that does that, and it'll help me become a better teacher. It's helping me become a better listener or a better communicator. And if they hear, you know, long enough, hopefully, to help them to become a better leader as well. And that's what motivating and energizing for a lot of teachers. So they can see the improvement. And you're right, mentioned those test results. It's really nice for a group of teachers who work really hard all year to realize that the students that at the end of year 12, at end of year, no more learn more, have got more opportunities to go, you know, post-secondary. Hopefully they're more connected to each other, too. So it's nice to be part of an organization that's doing good things and that's what schools are designed to do. Well, it seems like it's a double good thing you're attracting people to your school because they want to be a part of a community of learners, because they want to grow and be the best they can be. But those people who want to grow, be the best they can be, are probably exactly the kind of people you want to have in your school. So it's it's doubly wonderful to see see that happening. What have you done? This didn't happen by chance, as you have such widespread implementation of coaching with such positive results. What have you done to support the coaching in the in the school? So there's there's a few things and I think, you know, you've got to get people in. You've got to get people on side in terms of the value proposition. So, you know, not everybody was say and I was talking to the coaching days. Still we get parents saying, you know, why you canceling classes or why would you do this? So, you know, so there's a kind of ongoing narrative that you need to really manage and you've got to keep getting people to actually see the benefit and to talk, you know, to that. I think that's one thing. So managing the narrative is something that we talk about a lot, and it's supported by research, supported by evidence, but it's also supported by values and aspirations. And I think people can sense what's behind things. Well, like, I think there's a you know, one of the things that's great about, you know, coaching is going to sound a bit outlandish, but I'll go there, you know, go for it. Yeah, well, I think there's a grace to it. I look and you know, by grace, you know, I mean, there's a moral goodness to it. And, and I think people just get that, you know, And when you bump into the objections, you know, you can come back to that because actually it turns out that's actually really important. And it's not like a set of tricks, You know, it's not like you just you can hotwire things and you just, you know, even in coaching, you know, your own role, you know, and how you you're not the the problem solver, the person who can just go and show everybody how to do things. You know, you like this all of that pace, which is really important. And then the other bit is there is you know, there's always be those transactional accountabilities that coach seems to be up against. And that's things like we've got a management line and this person is underperforming. You know, how do you have that conversation at the same time as you want to help people, when you see the unconditional good? Well, what if he's saying now I'm conditional, not so good, What does that look like? But I have said the things that are happening, you know, you know, in a I guess a constructive and deeper level, particularly around things like, you know, the partnership principles, I think mark my touch on yeah, that's the perfect launch. If I had to say what was the secret sauce, it would be the partnership principles, particularly around, you know, choice and voice and reciprocity. If I think about the coaching team, you know, they love how much they learned from being in classrooms with other teachers at other sides. You know, coaching is optional. Yeah, it's not something that teachers have to do, but we say it's a service that we provide that a lot of schools don't. And churches, for the most part, absolutely love it and that's why they come to the school. The other thing for the the coaching team, there's lots of ongoing training and support for them. A lot I use this, you know, the quality of your coaching program can't exceed the quality of your purchase. So we invest a lot of time once a fortnight meeting with coaches and they work on a conversational skills, they film themselves coaching. We talk about what high quality instructional practice looks like. We watch videos of classes that ongoing coaching support for coaches is really important because it's continually solving problems, you know, and doing that in a way with, you know, unconditional positive regard with the people you work with in a sense of optimism and a sense of care of that process of making the partnership. Principals with coaching training have been three really powerful levers to help people be involved and enjoy the process and get out of it. That's very interesting. Things I heard there. Jeb More to say. Marker, I cut you off. I spend a lot of time talking about 4 hours. Ginger That's okay. I spend a lot of my time talking about not interrupting and then I spend the rest of it interrupting. So the one thing I thought that was interesting, too, two things that I took away from what you said. One of them is you said to keep reminding people of the story that because I think for whatever reason in complex times, people love a simple solution, even if it's not one that's going to work. You know, the has a lack of nuance. Just tell the teachers what to do and they'll do it sounds good. It's just that it lacks any kind of, as you're your term, a really good one. GRACE And so you have to keep reminding people of different aspects of the story of what we're trying to accomplish here is something that's a mutually humanizing interaction. That is, it just turns out, is really powerful for kids. And then what I heard you say, Mark, and if I missed something really important in this kind of but what I wanted to really highlight is it sounds like you don't spend a lot of time telling people what to do. I'm sure there's an element of that, but they're spending a lot of time practicing their skills through watching themselves coach on video, through watching classrooms, discussing there's a lot more a lot more than just telling. There's an awful lot of activity where people are refining and improving and getting better at what they do. Yeah, yeah, that's it. You know, it's very much a development approach to improvement. You know, if everyone individually is improving the school will improving. And you know, we trust the individual using the partnership principles. We have a process around the impact cycle now and people are inherently good. And she gives them time and space and resources. We found that that improves dramatically, particularly if they're in a culture of people where everyone is improving. And you say it's that that cycle of improvement, it's really grateful, right? So what's the future for breaking grammar and, and the growth in the school? Just looking ahead, what do you I love the way you put it. We're in three time zones. As you look at the future of time zone, what do you what do you gentlemen think is happening there? One of the things for us, I was sort of pointing towards the human skills and, you know, I really the more that I look at, you know, what's happening in the knowledge industry and and you know, where the kind of world that these kids are going to be, you know, in. We've got learners that are, you know, four years old, you know, they're going to be in the workplace, you know, in 60 years time still, you know, And that's like, you know, that's right. At the end of, you know, like it's it's such a different place. And this is what that what they're learning. So, you know, for us, I think in in the coaching work that we do, again, just as a emphasis on, you know, the conversation of skills on social fitness, on, you know, understanding our impact and how we can help obviously partner with people to to really understand and to build nuance in the conversations. And I think that's one of the big and I think about all the coaching skills. PACE You know, and demonstrating yeah, I'm paraphrasing before this stat experience I had and you paraphrasing in just understanding how to my coming across to I am I available to, you know, to understand that as well. And I think these are the kinds of things that we really need to be, you know, preparing our kids for, because that's going to be that the the world that they're going to be in. And of course, as a school, as is a nascent type here, and that is that, you know, we it just it it's nice to, you know, to to have an opportunity to chat about where we've we've come from. But it feels like it's still an awful lot, you know, just just doing the job and just trying to get better and just making all the mistakes and trying to figure it out and, you know, have an ex now. I mean, I get it every now and then. I go around again. So what are your thoughts? Mike Yeah, I think we're fortunate to be in a good spot as a school and, you know, there's always asymptotic improvements as you go. I'm going to have to look that up after this after the break. And it looks like the hockey stick in. It's the I'm not sure of my. Have you ever quite get to that point? You know, like it's right. It's is probably a Greek, you know, myth that we could throw in him and yeah I thought of it as a Canadian I think we call it the hockey stick graphic, this kind of grappling patterns. Yes. Yeah. Do you do Greek myths? I do Canadian hockey. Anyway, back to your aunts and that that word kind of grew out. Mark Asymptotic They were kind of the the belly get the harder it is to improve I think that the process those that were trying to be a bit of a lighthouse school around here we share a lot of out work like you say you email the playbook out to anyone that asks for it. And we do lots of coaching development work here as well for schools both within our school and for other schools around Australia. But I still think there's, you know, the future. It's it's still about, you know, what do people need to be good at? I need to be good listeners. They need to be empathetic, they need to be patient. You know, we can all improve those skill sets. If I just say to you, I'm still trying not to interrupt people and you know, buddy with my ideas, all that type of stuff. And I think both the humans that we work with in the teacher space, that stuff that will help them become better partners, mothers, fathers and also the students we work with AIS and going to teach you how to be a better listener or to be empathetic. We all still work in a world and live in a world surrounded by other humans, so we need to know how to connect. We know how to make people feel like they belong. We need to treat people like they matter because they do matter. And I think touching and conversations are really at the heart of that. And there's plenty of work to be done in that space in schools and in the world in general. So I've got to really big that. But it's the core stuff. But you are a lighthouse. I mean, you're drawing people in, so you're a magnetic lighthouse, but you're drawing people in. But also you're you're affecting educators far beyond far beyond your school. Last year, you gave a magnificent presentation at TLC. I'm hoping I see you both the new Orleans this year coming up to TLC to talk more about your journey. And I loved being at your school. I've loved every interaction we've had. We've had many interactions. I'm I'm grateful for all the things you're doing, grateful for this conversation. So thank you both for all you've got to share is something else you'd like to add of. We covered everything you wanted to address. I do want to leave something out. The only small thing was just about starting. You know, if you're listening and it's about starting, I just think if you want to start, just start. You know, you don't have to have it all figured out. You know, I just think you start with a connection. You start with those conversations, you know, jump into, you know, any of your books or, you know, the great Archie books, get a little group of people together and, you know, just start a little fire and just see where it goes, because it really even the small stuff is really huge. And often it's the little stuff that you get. The biggest, noticeable, you know, really giant as, Wow, okay, this is taking off. So I just encourage people just to really, you know, have a go at it Don't let down that what is the old saying they're done it perfection get in the way of progress Yeah that's great Go ahead Mark. But I get so savage right away. I just start with one person for a coffee and ask some reflective questions and build some connections that start with one person and see if they feel energized after the conversation. And if you feel energized after the conversation. And then that's your starting point because that's where we started 8 to 10 years ago. Always a pleasure to talk to you guys. Always a pleasure to be a part of the school. And I'm grateful for all you're doing for kids. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much. Glad to be here, Jim. Thanks for having us.