Allison Rodman

Welcome back to Coaching Conversations. Today my guest is Allison Rodman, Founder and Chief Learning Officer of The Learning Loop. 

Allison's background spans various roles in education, from teacher to instructional coach, from school leader to director of teaching and learning. She's an ASCD Faculty Member and the author of Still Learning: Strengthening Professional and Organizational Capacity and Personalized Professional Learning: A Job-Embedded Pathway for Elevating Teacher Voice.

As the driving force behind The Learning Loop, Allison's mission is clear: to reshape how we view professional development.

In this episode you'll hear Allison share about her passion for student and adult learning, encouraging educators to see learning as an ongoing journey rather than a one-time event. 

Listen in as Allison shares details about the 5 key concepts from her latest book Still Learning: Strengthening Professional and Organizational Capacity, and find out how to understand, accept, and elevate the importance of stillness within the field so that we can make sure we're making the most thoughtful decisions on behalf of one another as well as our students.

I'd love to hear your feedback about my weekly Coaching Conversations. Please consider leaving a rating or review and subscribing to our channel.   

Curious how our consultants can make an impact on your school or district, click here. 

Join us at TLC in New Orleans, this October as we remind ourselves to keep kids first. To learn how to join us, click here.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:20
Unknown
So often we look at school spaces and we're looking at standardized, you know, test assessments. Are we looking at attendance data or survey results? And while that's all well and good, it very much is a lag measure in telling us how we're doing as an organization, right?

00:00:17:20 - 00:00:40:04
Unknown
So having that role of a coach to go in from a very proactive standpoint and note some of the different components that are playing out day to day in the classroom space that are having an effect both positively and perhaps detrimentally on our students. Learning is so powerful to then be able to bring that to a team space from a perspective driven standpoint and say, Hey, you know what?

00:00:40:05 - 00:00:52:23
Unknown
Like I know we've been doing practice this way for this long, but this is what some of the data is starting to show us. Can we ask the tough questions of each other about whether that practice shifts, moving forward?

00:00:54:00 - 00:00:59:11


00:00:59:11 - 00:01:07:07


00:01:09:03 - 00:01:41:07
Unknown
Hello, listeners. It's ICG consultant Jessica Wise. And I want to invite you to join Jim Knight and the instructional coaching group team at this year's Teaching Learning Coaching conference in New Orleans. If you are looking to learn, practice, reflect and grow your craft, the TLC conference is the place to be. Whether you join us in person or online, you'll experience meaningful keynotes, powerful breakouts and time to network and invest in human connection with like minded educators.

00:01:41:09 - 00:01:58:22
Unknown
Join us October 27th through the 29th as we gather to empower passionate educators to keep kids first visit instructional coaching dot com forward slash TLC Dash 2024. I hope to see you there.

00:01:58:22 - 00:02:01:04
Unknown
Allison, I'm thrilled

00:02:01:04 - 00:02:04:17
Unknown
learning is number one on the voice strength finder,

00:02:04:17 - 00:02:07:01
Unknown
I work at the Center for Research on Learning,

00:02:07:01 - 00:02:23:20
Unknown
and I've lived by Eric Hoffa's line that in times of change, the learners inherit the earth with alerted find themselves beautifully equipped for a world that no longer exists. So book called Still Learning is like a book made for me. So I'm thrilled we get to talk through your new book.

00:02:23:22 - 00:02:33:12
Unknown
And so I wanted to start with a bit. Could you tell us all a little bit about your background and what you were doing before you started still learning? So.

00:02:33:12 - 00:02:44:01
Unknown
Absolutely, Jim. First of all, thank you so much for the invitation. It is truly an honor to be here and have an opportunity to talk together not only about the book, but also about both of our work.

00:02:44:01 - 00:03:11:06
Unknown
So sincerely, thank you for that. My background is mixed in a good way, so I started as a teacher in urban schools in both Richmond, Virginia, as well as Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I moved into an instructional coach role and came to a very much respects all of your work around coaching not only in that role, but also as I later transitioned into the role of assistant principal, as well as director of teaching and learning.

00:03:11:08 - 00:03:46:18
Unknown
And much like you always had this passion not just for student learning but for adult learning. And I felt as though there were just ways that we could do it better, right? We were talking about ways to differentiate and personalize for students at the same time that we were moving our adult learners into a one size fits all sit and get pre sessions and that really became a sort of a calling card for me to dig into some of the research around Andrew Koji and think about what are the ways that we could design professional learning in our school systems better than than we presently were.

00:03:46:20 - 00:04:11:06
Unknown
So with that in mind, my first book from Alaska came out in 2019 and that was focused on personalized professional learning, very much a guide for school and district leaders who valued that concept but weren't quite sure how to make that work in practice. And following that particular text, leaders came out sort of, I want to say, in two camps almost, right?

00:04:11:06 - 00:04:35:04
Unknown
Some folks said, yes, this is exactly what we needed. We want to learn how to better support our teacher leaders and our building leaders to be stronger facilitators. They might be amazing with students, but just aren't quite sure how to tap into that adult learner. And then I had other leaders that came forward very transparently and said, We believe what you've written here, but we don't yet have the learning culture to to make it happen.

00:04:35:06 - 00:04:56:11
Unknown
Our teachers don't know themselves well enough. We don't have the team dynamics to build on this type of structure and you help us in that space and that's very much where this new book Still Learning really came from, was kind of responding to that need in the field and making sure that leaders had what they needed. So not only personalized leading learning, but also developed some of those cultures.

00:04:56:11 - 00:05:19:07
Unknown
yes, it's very interesting to think about this. This is and I think there's a lot of alignment between what you talk about, what we talk about. You you mentioned five concepts in the book, so I thought I would go through each the concepts and we kind of go back and forth on them. But in talking about the five concepts, you talk about capacity building, and I'm wondering if you have any particular slant on what we mean by capacity building.

00:05:19:07 - 00:05:47:14
Unknown
I kind of get the idea, but I'm wondering how you would define that idea. What's interesting about that particular term very transparently, is that I feel as though it's evolved from the book's original inception, right? I think the outline for the Earth for this book was originally conceived in November of 2019. And, you know, our our learning spaces have changed and shifted so much since then for both our educators as well as our students.

00:05:47:16 - 00:05:59:03
Unknown
So I think at that time it was focused more on the communication elements of of capacity building. How do you bring, you know, your full self to the team, be a stronger communicator?

00:05:59:03 - 00:06:24:23
Unknown
But now, as we look ahead to challenges of burnout, of staff retention and of just even filling the seats in some of our classrooms, I think that need is even more urgent, not just around strengthening some of those communication norms and team building strategies, but also knowing ourselves as a learner, setting really intentional goals, both personally and professionally, that lead to a place of fulfillment rather than burnout.

00:06:25:01 - 00:06:38:23
Unknown
And with that, helping both leaders as well as teachers really understand where their time is going day today so that they are as intently focused on the most important things as they potentially can be.

00:06:38:23 - 00:06:49:21
Unknown
How easy do you find it to know yourself based on what you said, if you don't mind following up with that question? Certainly. So that really digs into the first discipline of attunement.

00:06:49:21 - 00:06:55:19
Unknown
And one of the things that I think has been so ironic to me in this work is that

00:06:55:19 - 00:07:25:08
Unknown
the education field is looked to as a space of learning, right? And yet we're doing that self-reflection and that self-awareness work so much better in business spaces and other spaces than many times we are in the field of education. So it's not uncommon for someone in a business setting to complete a Clifton strengths binder assessment or inventory, and to have a conversation among their team about These are my top five strengths.

00:07:25:08 - 00:07:53:23
Unknown
These are my five. Let's talk about how we build and grow on one another's work from a strengths based perspective. And for whatever reason, even though we work with teachers on operating from a strengths based perspective with our students, that self-awareness and an understanding of who they are in terms of their identity, their growth profile and what motivates them is not as much top of mind in the education field as perhaps it is, and other spaces.

00:07:53:23 - 00:07:58:01
Unknown
Well, the reason I ask the question is because it's something I'm thinking a lot about right now,

00:07:58:01 - 00:08:16:14
Unknown
I think in many ways we avoid learning ourselves. So, you know, we find things in the world that keep us busy and keep us from actually looking at, you know, what we're dealing with in the truest sense of knowing who we are.

00:08:16:15 - 00:08:32:22
Unknown
And because we don't know who we are, it's hard for us to really see into the hearts of other people and know them particularly well at the surface level, I suppose there is. But, you know, we don't want to watch a video of our class because we don't actually want to see what happens, you know, if you're a teacher.

00:08:33:00 - 00:08:54:18
Unknown
But it's even deeper than that. I think aspects of things that are painful and loneliness and all those kinds of things that are like sometimes taking courses where there's a day retreat as a part of it. And some people are really nervous about that day where they don't do something because all the things you're doing, you know, the 10,000 things they're keeping you from really knowing yourself.

00:08:54:18 - 00:09:03:14
Unknown
So that's what I was getting in, was how easy it is to reflect, to really deeply see it. From your perspective, do you think people

00:09:03:14 - 00:09:14:05
Unknown
do you think people are able to do that, that that hard, reflective work? I guess they can, but it's just not easy. That's absolutely right. Time And I think it really varies from person to person, right?

00:09:14:05 - 00:09:48:01
Unknown
So I've facilitated workshops focused on a two men where some individuals are able to look at an identity driven reflection and dive right in to say, these components of my static identity definitely drive who I am as a professional or these components of my dynamic identity have changed over time. I've also been in those same sessions where some individuals were struggling so much because it took them to a place where they had to sort of admit, I don't like who I am at home and I don't like who I am at work, and I'm not sure how to fix that.

00:09:48:01 - 00:10:12:15
Unknown
Right. So, you know, sometimes thoughts and systems will approach me and they'll say, you know, can you come in and do a keynote on this work? And, you know, I'll very transparently respond. I can do that as a starting point. But it's just a starting point. It's not going to be able to lead you and your staff to this space of deep reflection that's going to truly strengthen their capacity over time.

00:10:12:17 - 00:10:19:16
Unknown
So then it attunement like I'm tuned into myself and others excuse my sort of pinhead definition, but it's out. Is that what it means?

00:10:19:16 - 00:10:32:08
Unknown
Yeah. So definitely looking at are you tuned into yourself? Do you know who you are from an identity standpoint? Do you know what motivates you or do you understand how you grow? So you noted, you know for yourself that Clifton strengths is learning, right?

00:10:32:08 - 00:11:06:14
Unknown
For me, my top one is significance of really bringing something of meaning to feel. So being able to understand that and also capitalize on that. But then it also begs the question, once you know yourself, can you bring your full self to your school community? Is there some harmony there between who you know yourself to be and how you're able to present among your colleagues, among your students, or are there some deeper community and cultural challenges that we need to perhaps address in order for that full sense of presence and belonging to sort of really sort of manifest in that space?

00:11:06:16 - 00:11:07:17
Unknown
That's fascinating.

00:11:07:17 - 00:11:14:13
Unknown
So the second concept is alignment. Tell me about what you mean by alignment and what it means for coaches, what it coaches need to know about alignment.

00:11:14:13 - 00:11:39:02
Unknown
One of the things that I think coaches do exceptionally well in their work with the teachers that they're coaching is they set very clear goals. They're transparent. If they're doing their work well, they're transparent about a teacher's current strengths as well as their growth opportunities and then articulately conveying how they are going to move forward in that practice together to see progress over time.

00:11:39:04 - 00:11:54:20
Unknown
And when we look at that discipline of alignment, it's really about that clear definition of goals. What is your purpose both as a coach and as a teacher and then does what you do day to day. Your practice aligned to that purpose.

00:11:54:20 - 00:12:03:03
Unknown
So often as educators, you know, we're driven by our inbox on a day to day basis rather than clear priorities that aligned to those goals.

00:12:03:03 - 00:12:34:21
Unknown
So being able to utilize our calendars, planners have task management systems in a way that not only helps us define what those goals are, but also ensures that day. Today, we're taking the most critical actions that are getting us closer to them and that that's personally as well as professionally. I think one of the big causes of burnout right now is that we might be setting professional, professional goals, but we're not giving that same level of attention and definition to the personal goals and our personal needs that we have.

00:12:34:23 - 00:12:56:23
Unknown
So the reason why I'm really interested in alignment, in addition to what you just said, is that it's the term used by Miller Rolnick and motivational interviewing. And so what they say is when you conduct therapy from a motivational interviewing perspective, alignment is where the coach and or the therapist in that case and the person being therapist are in alignment.

00:12:56:23 - 00:13:14:08
Unknown
That is, that the person who is receiving therapy has a goal they really want to achieve and then the coach is helping them go after it. So the coaches in giving the teacher we use coaching coaches and giving the teacher the goal. The coach says, let's let's let's figure out the thing you most want to do and then I'm going to help you go after it.

00:13:14:10 - 00:13:33:00
Unknown
And what I like about what you're saying is it sounds like I can do that more effectively if I have internal alignment in terms of what my purpose is, how my actions reflect my purpose, that there's there isn't a divided ness between the inside and outside. There's a wholeness there to get not to get too thick here. No, not at all, Jim.

00:13:33:01 - 00:13:38:10
Unknown
And, you know, thinking about that, not just from a personal standpoint, but then also a coaching standpoint, you know,

00:13:38:10 - 00:13:54:18
Unknown
typically, you know, Michael Hyatt will say that we sort of operate within three different circles. There's that circle of doing, and that's vocationally sort of what drives us. There's the circle of relating how we're engaged socially with a partner or with our family or our friends or our colleagues.

00:13:54:20 - 00:14:25:19
Unknown
And then the circle of being how we're sort of self grounded in the things that are important to us, whether that be health related or time for spirituality or for pause and what I often find when I work with educators is that oftentimes they're setting goals in one of those three circles rather than all three. So they might be very firmly focused on that circle of doing, but they feel burnt out because they haven't thought about how their actions or their, you know, sort of reactions with others are driving their work.

00:14:25:19 - 00:14:47:10
Unknown
By everyone. It's Jessica Wise. Host of the Coaching Questions on the Coaching Conversations Podcast with Jim Knight. I am very fortunate to be part of an amazing consultant team here at the instructional coaching group. If you were wondering about how to implement, reset or recharge instructional coaching in your system, partnering with one of the consultants is the way to go.

00:14:47:12 - 00:15:15:10
Unknown
Contact our managers of partnership and outreach for the opportunity for your district or school to build and sustain your effective instructional coaching program. These awesome consultants tailor learning to your needs as they work with coaches and administrators to ensure high quality learning geared toward long term and life giving implementation. Visit instructional coaching dot com and click on Bring ICG to your district to request a complimentary consultation.

00:15:15:13 - 00:15:38:23
Unknown
And similarly, you know, your yoga session or that walk in the morning might be the first thing to sort of get kicked off when you're not, you know, meeting all of the time deadlines that you have. So being able to be in that place of alignment not only with your own goals, but then also to be able to transparently share that with your colleagues, whether that's a coach or a supervisor, so that they're able to support you in that.

00:15:38:23 - 00:16:03:17
Unknown
Some of the strongest school community is with whom I've worked are spaces where individuals are comfortable sharing not just the professional goals, but the personal ones as well. To be able to say, you know what, you committed to this. Like, how are you holding yourself to that standard for our students? But then also for your family, for your children, for, you know, the other people in your life that that are important for you to do this term, this work not just in the short term, but but the long term.

00:16:03:19 - 00:16:23:10
Unknown
Right. Right. And so psychological safety is a really important part of that. Absolutely Not going to you're not going to always say you're not going to bury your soul. To Debbie Downer. You know, you have to you have to create a safe place. Next concept is perspective obviously really important for coaching and really important for learning. I'd love to hear your take home perspective.

00:16:23:12 - 00:16:46:12
Unknown
Certainly. So when we look at some of the research on perspective, typically what individuals will say is that requires some type of disorienting experience to change one's perspective or to shift one's schema. So that's why, quite honestly, you will hear people say, you know, after a significant life event or perhaps a tragedy or a major change in their life, you know, that really shifted my perspective.

00:16:46:12 - 00:17:12:11
Unknown
And I think one of the universal changes we've all seen was, you know, sort of post-pandemic how that has shifted our perspective as educators and the environment within which we work. But the real challenge here is how do we create a safe space for individuals to share their perspectives, whether they might be aligned or, you know, sort of misaligned or differing from each other in a way that, as you noted, you'll see.

00:17:12:13 - 00:17:35:23
Unknown
Right. It's coming from that place of psychological safety, but also asks the bigger questions in the field. So to be able to say, you know what, hey, I've been looking at this classroom data and I'm wondering what if we made this shift in our grading policy? Where what if this were one of the strategies that was truly driving our, you know, English language arts curriculum?

00:17:36:01 - 00:17:56:11
Unknown
Those sometimes are harder questions for teachers to pose both to one another as well to as well as to a coach, unless they're willing to engage sort of in that place of vulnerability and trust where they can ask the tough questions among each other and then use the data as a team to guide the decisions that they make moving forward.

00:17:56:11 - 00:17:57:03
Unknown
I mean,

00:17:57:03 - 00:18:14:20
Unknown
there's so much packed in that. So the first thought I had was that the coach needs to be aware of their perspective and interact in a way that makes space for the other person's perspective. And then the other part of it is when you brought up data, as I think what data can do is, is broaden your perspective.

00:18:14:20 - 00:18:38:16
Unknown
As Laura Lipton and Wellman said, you know, data makes the invisible visible. You can see more depending on the interpretive frame you bring to it. So if I'm looking for how many different students are answering questions and what kind of answers are giving, that's going to make me see different things in the class. And if I'm just watching, I'm going to have a zoned in perspective.

00:18:38:16 - 00:18:54:12
Unknown
But I think the coaches, I guess also for use that concept of perspective, they're helping people expand their perspective, maybe build up beyond implicit bias, for example, to see other things so that it's a it's a really core concept for coaching, I think.

00:18:54:12 - 00:19:10:13
Unknown
And one of the things that I value so much about that coaching role is that those individuals collect so much data in our school spaces that's often overlooked.

00:19:10:15 - 00:19:18:00
Unknown
But is truly the type of data that we need to be able to enhance educator practice and also improve student learning.

00:19:18:00 - 00:19:35:20
Unknown
So often we look at school spaces and we're looking at standardized, you know, test assessments. Are we looking at attendance data or survey results? And while that's all well and good, it very much is a lag measure in telling us how we're doing as an organization, right?

00:19:35:20 - 00:19:58:04
Unknown
So having that role of a coach to go in from a very proactive standpoint and note some of the different components that are playing out day to day in the classroom space that are having an effect both positively and perhaps detrimentally on our students. Learning is so powerful to then be able to bring that to a team space from a perspective driven standpoint and say, Hey, you know what?

00:19:58:05 - 00:20:10:23
Unknown
Like I know we've been doing practice this way for this long, but this is what some of the data is starting to show us. Can we ask the tough questions of each other about whether that practice shifts, moving forward?

00:20:10:23 - 00:20:17:07
Unknown
Yeah, I always say that to use standardized test scores as your goal for coaching, it's kind of like a GPS that only tells you when you have arrived.

00:20:17:07 - 00:20:36:09
Unknown
You really need to be able to measure it week by week, you know, and know our we and usually the first things you try to at work that well you have to make adjustments make adaptations along the way. Now the next one is a word I hear frequently collective efficacy. So I first heard about it from a friend of mine, Meghan to Shannon Moran.

00:20:36:14 - 00:20:47:21
Unknown
And and then I came up a lot in Hattie's work as a really high effect size. So I'm curious to hear your take on on collective efficacy. We might explore this one a little bit.

00:20:47:21 - 00:20:57:11
Unknown
huge amount of respect for John Hattie's work, as well as Jenny Donahue and Stephanie and the work that they've done in in this space.

00:20:57:13 - 00:21:16:07
Unknown
It was really important to me as I looked at the five disciplines to not just look at the individual level, right? So not just look at a two men and a lineman and what could be we could be doing as individual learners, but also through perspective and collective efficacy to begin thinking about what that means at the team level.

00:21:16:09 - 00:21:39:15
Unknown
So if we're setting individual goals, that certainly drives us from a place of self-efficacy. And the example that I often use in workshops and really seems to resonate with folks have to kind of go back to Pizza Hut bucket program from years ago, right. Sort of that driver for for middle school kids if you read so many books, you get the stars on the chart and then it translates to a personal Pam pizza.

00:21:39:15 - 00:21:59:16
Unknown
Right. You're able to see that progress over time. But one of the things that I think we overlook in school communities is the importance of translating that self-efficacy to the team space, to being able to say, okay, those were our goals as individuals. But what are the team based goals that we truly need in order to move our work forward?

00:21:59:18 - 00:22:21:23
Unknown
And how do we operate not just from a place of individual vulnerability, but shared vulnerability to admit we don't know what we don't know. And this is an area where we might need to be stronger. But if this is truly our goal as a team, let's figure it out together and let's continue to to work forward some of the rules that I've seen see the most amount of progress.

00:22:22:01 - 00:22:56:23
Unknown
Yes, they have clearly defined goals, but they also have really structured mechanisms and schedules that sort of drive those goals forward. So they're not apology stick about the fact that this is something that's important to all of us and it's going to drive our decision making. And with that in mind, they make sure that their team schedules, their agendas, their structures, their protocols all line up for that from a place of collective efficacy to make sure that they're purposeful, really leveraging that time as well as they possibly can to drive those goals forward.

00:22:57:02 - 00:23:13:17
Unknown
Yeah, we have a concept called freedom within form. You need a structure, but the structure has to be adaptive and so the impact cycle, for example, is an example of freedom within for when you have a process we're going to follow. But I want to I want to go a little deeper into the efficacy and see if I've got it since I've got you here, I'm going to learn from you.

00:23:13:21 - 00:23:37:20
Unknown
So so let's take efficacy in a sports environment and let's say we have a basketball team and and that the one of the players on the team, he or she depending on the team has self-efficacy. They're like, it's my turn to take the you know when it's time to win the game, give me the ball. I'm going to be the one to shoot the shot.

00:23:38:02 - 00:24:04:22
Unknown
I can. And I'm and when they enter into the whatever the game is, the dynamics, they come from a place of maybe confidence. They're solid in who they are. That to me is self-efficacy and also efficacy has other elements to it might relate to your relationships, to other people, clarity around your purpose. But I know who I am and positive self-efficacy means I feel in the circumstance I could succeed.

00:24:05:00 - 00:24:25:12
Unknown
You know, whatever the circuit circumstance might be. So collective efficacy would be with a whole team is on a winning streak. And they say and they say, you like, I don't care who we play, we are going to win this game. And they have this sense we're all together, we're together, We're I'm not about me. I'm about what we can do collectively.

00:24:25:14 - 00:24:46:20
Unknown
I want to support my colleagues and we're doing amazing good things here together. That to me is collective efficacy. So do I have it right? Is that your take on the difference between what we mean by collective efficacy? That very much resonates with my work as well. Gym, where it's not just about who carries the ball, it's about where we end up together as a team, right?

00:24:46:20 - 00:25:07:16
Unknown
So thinking about, you know, are we leveraging some of the things from different perspective, taking standpoints to say, you know what, hey, that strategy you recommended that actually got better results than the one that I've been using, like, let's let's run with that or being able to say, you know what, I made these commitments to our team last week and I missed the mark.

00:25:07:18 - 00:25:38:19
Unknown
And you helped me as a thought partner and as an accountability partner to make sure that not only am I meeting this week's mark, but I'm doubling that moving forward so that there becomes this sense of trust, but also commitment to one another in the work. And I had this conversation with another educator just earlier this week around the topic of commitment and are some of our newer educators as committed as perhaps, you know, educators who were entering the field years ago?

00:25:38:21 - 00:26:05:17
Unknown
And I think one of the responsibilities that we have as leaders, as well as instructional coaches, is to set very clear goals for our teams and the folks that we're working with and also to build that trust towards those goals. So when we look at trust specifically, it typically is that juxtaposition between strength. Are we seeing progress as a team over time but also vulnerability?

00:26:05:17 - 00:26:30:10
Unknown
Are we honest about the areas where we need to continue to improve? And my hope is that a lot of this work continues to be goal driven, but also gets really honest in in that vulnerable space to say, you know what, these practices served us really well 20 years ago. They were great practices then. We don't second guess anything that we did, but they might not be the best right now.

00:26:30:10 - 00:26:38:08
Unknown
Right. Let's let's find sort of what that better practices for where our students are now and where educators are now.

00:26:38:08 - 00:27:02:11
Unknown
collective efficacy isn't about being nice. The collective efficacy is about coming together in confidence with each other and succeeding. So if you think of kids who are not putting on a play and the play just rocks the house and that's a really big success positive the kids feel in that moment they have collective efficacy, not collective efficacy.

00:27:02:11 - 00:27:19:15
Unknown
It doesn't have to be something in a moment. It can be something that builds over time. And and probably what builds collective efficacy is success. You know, I think in fact, being nice could be engender collective efficacy because we don't talk about the things that need to be discussed, which isn't to say you should be a jerk either.

00:27:19:15 - 00:27:38:23
Unknown
You know, you want to be respectful and you want to find ways to have empathy towards others and see deeply into them and communicate in ways that are affirmative, or what Liz Wiseman called a multiplier. But but it's really collective efficacy is really about coming together as a team and believing we can do it. Is that am I off track or is that what it is?

00:27:39:01 - 00:28:09:17
Unknown
That is and it's, you know, looking at that idea of, you know, it's not necessarily about playing nice, but playing respectfully. So, you know, a couple of the different examples that I give in the book are the ways in which some of our armed forces do after action reviews where they're just incredibly transparent and say, hey, this worked well, this dead end, or, you know, Pixar has an incredibly powerful brain trust where they bring individuals from across their organizations to give transparent feedback on particular scripts as well as content development.

00:28:09:17 - 00:28:37:21
Unknown
And when I look at collective efficacy specifically, for me, it's not necessarily about the position but the positioning together. So how are we going back to that discipline of attunement, knowing ourselves to say, This is your strength, this is yours, this is mine, And then positioning all of that together in a way that moves us collectively as a team towards that overall goal that we've established sometimes, you know, that's nice.

00:28:37:21 - 00:28:41:11
Unknown
Sometimes it means we've got to ask some tough questions along the way.

00:28:41:11 - 00:29:00:12
Unknown
Well, it has to be psychologically safe. So I'm not saying be jerks, but I think yeah, I think you you you can have respectful, you know, it's safety and accountability for change. Those two things together is would be the key thing. Well, I better move on to the next one.

00:29:00:12 - 00:29:24:21
Unknown
But I like all this. But, you know, if you carry the ball in basketball, you're going to get a traveling call. So you can't really carry the ball. But anyway, organizational learning is the last of the concepts. I actually wrote an article when I was just starting as a doc student called Do Schools Have Learning Disabilities? And I was hugely influenced by Peter Sanji and and then all the people that worked after him.

00:29:24:23 - 00:29:50:23
Unknown
So, I mean, this is right in my wheelhouse, too. So tell me about organizational learning and what that means. It obviously overlaps. Maybe it brings together all the other concepts, but what are your thoughts about it? Certainly. So it very much brings together the different concepts. And was much like you inspired by Peter Sanjay's work, right? So looking at those concepts of team learning and mental models and personal mastery and thinking about from a systemic level within our schools what that means.

00:29:50:23 - 00:30:24:03
Unknown
And for me, I'll admit this chapter was somewhat aspirational because I don't know if we're there yet in our educational space. And so I referenced earlier when we were talking about alignment, some of the ways in which, you know, the business spaces might be, you know, leveraging some of those tools a little bit better than we are. And one of my hopes for our collective profession is that we become models of learning not just for our students, but for the broader sort of global environment as a whole, so that

00:30:24:03 - 00:30:33:09
Unknown
we're looking to our school systems as ultimate models of learning, as learning ecosystem, so that when we're developing training as a corporation and or we're

00:30:33:09 - 00:30:57:12
Unknown
looking to really grow individuals within a nonprofit organization, we're not necessarily looking outward to consultants and other people in the corporate space to do that, but instead we've developed our schools in such a way that they are integral models of learning for our students, but also adults, and that we can look to them at a variety of different levels to guide some of that work.

00:30:57:12 - 00:31:27:06
Unknown
So whether it be around developing individuals or teams or the whole system from from a structural standpoint. And one of the terms that really stuck with me as I was going about this work comes from Keegan and Pascal Leahy's work around a deliberately developmental organizations. That term just continues to stick with me because it's almost like a call to action to say, right, like, are you not, you know, only this building with scores with four walls that support student learning.

00:31:27:06 - 00:31:54:08
Unknown
But what are you doing day today as a leader and as a coach to be deliberately key developmental self or the individuals that you're coaching and for the system as a whole. So this concept of of organizational learning for me is about the individual components, but then also systemically how we're developing in our school, our schools in a way to be true learning ecosystems for the field as well as beyond.

00:31:54:10 - 00:32:24:08
Unknown
Yeah, I use long term learning architecture, but I think ecosystems, the nice similar kind of concept and what we feel is there should be connection between everybody in the system. And so if a teacher over here teaches us part of the curriculum in a particularly effective way and they learn something from the students, they have a coach they can go to or the coach is going to learn, and then that coach is connected to all the other coaches and all the administrators.

00:32:24:08 - 00:32:47:14
Unknown
And so, you know, within a few hours, everybody in the system knows about this cool idea. And and if you have coaches and administrators and a director of coaching, maybe champions for the coaches, if you have a system where everything is connected, then that learning should happen immediately. And I love your idea that if you want to learn about learning, go to a school.

00:32:47:14 - 00:33:12:04
Unknown
That sounds like pretty sensible to me. It's an interesting to me, you know, that we certainly do well with schools in solving technical problems, right? We had to deal with, bad. We got folks on Zoom, we got devices in their hands. We have, you know, challenges around staff shortages. We get coverages like those are technical problems. And leaders and coaches are incredibly adaptive in that.

00:33:12:06 - 00:33:44:13
Unknown
I think some of our best leaders are also really good at responding to adaptive challenges. So there are new, you know, things that emerge and learning. We might respond to something that we're seeing in benchmark data or informative assessment data that we're collecting, and we use that as an opportunity for learning to adapt. Perhaps the way that we're shifting things, I think sort of the untapped space, if you will, are some of the general have opportunities that lie before us in education.

00:33:44:13 - 00:34:13:22
Unknown
Right now we are bringing in a much different workforce than we have previously. A lot of our newer teachers coming into the field, this is not their first position, but instead they bring with them a wealth of vocational knowledge as well as field knowledge and executive functioning skills in a way that, quite honestly, a lot of our new teacher induction programs are not equipped to respond to, or there's perhaps a misalignment there in valuing some of that energy and expertise.

00:34:14:00 - 00:34:43:19
Unknown
We also have learned so much in the virtual space over the course of the past five years that I don't know that we're fully leveraging both in terms of student learning as well as adult learning. So how could we be doing this better from a coaching perspective to use some of those tools for more frequent engagements with the teachers that we're coaching, or how do we use them as a space to collaborate more frequently than perhaps we might otherwise have an opportunity to do in team or in one on one meetings?

00:34:43:21 - 00:35:07:14
Unknown
So my hope looking forward is that we truly use some of these generative opportunities that are starting to as well as continue to emerge within the education space and don't waste them, but instead ask those tough questions about, you know, could education look this way, or could our learning and professional learning spaces look that way? I think it's going to be a really important part of the work moving forward.

00:35:07:16 - 00:35:15:01
Unknown
Okay. I ask a question. I've got two more questions. One that I'm sure you asked all the time. Why still learning? Why is that the title?

00:35:15:01 - 00:35:32:07
Unknown
This was perhaps one of my favorite pieces to pull together when drafting the book Gem. So quite honestly, we went through a bunch of different titles. I hated all of them. And I know as an author yourself, you've probably, you know, been through that experience where you like, No, that's just not quite it.

00:35:32:07 - 00:35:57:16
Unknown
And, you know, I brought together a group of thought partners and colleagues that I truly value on my network, and I said, you know, this is though the work that I'm trying to convey and these are the key concepts that are so important and together, you know, we sort of finally landed and pitched to the editors and they agreed on this sort of title of still learning because it was really important to me that two things emerge in our responsibility as educators.

00:35:57:18 - 00:36:36:11
Unknown
One is that constant learners that we don't just rely on the practices that led us through our teacher preparation programs or that we're getting through our professional learning sessions, but that we continue to push one another's practice through the questions and the coaching sessions and the different resources and conversations that we're leveraging along the way so that when our students look to us, they look to us not just as sort of fans of knowledge and content, but also to true model learners who aren't afraid to sort of push their their own boundaries, or as Jennifer Abrams would say, kind of stretch their learning edges.

00:36:36:11 - 00:37:18:23
Unknown
Right. But then it was also really important to me that we understand, accept and elevate the importance of stillness within the field, that we constantly glorify that ever going hamster wheel of busyness and multitasking and constant shifting of responsibilities or sort of adding to the plate of tasks without really respecting and honoring the value and intentional loyalty that's needed to pause, to reflect, and to make sure that we're making the most thoughtful decisions on behalf of one another as well as our students.

00:37:18:23 - 00:37:41:01
Unknown
So, you know, one of the things that I think has been most powerful for me in this work, I had a superintendent come up to me after one of my workshops and he said, Thank you so much. You are one of the first individuals after 20 years in this field who has sort of given me permission, if you will, to add space and an appointment for reflection on my calendar.

00:37:41:03 - 00:38:09:21
Unknown
And I know how important that is, but I just didn't have the value and sort of the verification and that that was something that was worthwhile until we had this conversation. And it's interesting to me because in our conversations with students, we value reflection. We talk about reflecting on your work, seeing how you've progressed as a learner. And I don't know that we have that same value and that space for stillness and calm among our educators that we do for students.

00:38:09:23 - 00:38:34:12
Unknown
Okay. Last question and you got a couple of thoughts you'd like to wrap it up, but I love the cover, too, by the way. It's a beautiful cover. A few thoughts you like to leave us with respect to your book, Things we Haven't discussed, or maybe just big ideas, like what's really emphasize this one or two things. Now, speaking of the cover, Jim, I would actually love to leave off with that point.

00:38:34:12 - 00:38:56:10
Unknown
And this is the first time this has come up in a podcast interview, so I'm super excited to share it. I wanted to make sure that the cover included some type of image related to growth, right? That we were continuing to learn. But I also wanted to convey that it's okay over time to let go of practices that aren't serving us well.

00:38:56:10 - 00:39:26:23
Unknown
So for those of you who may not be familiar with the cover, I've kind of got one on on the back while here, but it has a variety of different dandelion designs and in different colors. The whole idea of personalized professional learning is is really important to me. And I wanted to make sure that in that work, individuals felt comfortable standing strong and continuing to grow, but also letting go of practices that weren't serving them well and recognizing that they can share those practices with others.

00:39:26:23 - 00:39:30:20
Unknown
And they still have value even if they're not in their own present space.

00:39:30:20 - 00:39:34:03
Unknown
Anything else you'd like to say for big? Like sort of big ideas.

00:39:34:03 - 00:40:14:04
Unknown
I would love to really encourage teachers, coaches and leaders to make space for constant learning for difficult questions. But perhaps most importantly, that reflection in your work that when you're engaged in those coaching conversations as well as your team meetings, you don't always need to be committed to that space of busyness, but instead you should feel very comfortable stepping back, looking at the data, asking questions of one another to make sure that the work that we continue to engage in on behalf of our students is as thoughtful and intentional as possible.

00:40:14:06 - 00:40:36:17
Unknown
Well, I love it. I'm so grateful for a book that promotes what I think stands at the heart of a failing life, which is learning. And and yours is about learning people and learning organizations. So it's doubly so. I'm very grateful. I hope this is the first of many, many conversations. Alison, thank you so much for sharing your ideas.

00:40:36:19 - 00:40:43:04
Unknown
Thank you, Jim. I truly appreciate the invitation and I'm looking forward to having the opportunity to continue collaborating together. Great.