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Unknown
to get good at any one skill, asking questions, listening, having dialogical conversations about strategies, you probably have to practice it at least ten times.
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Unknown
You know, you wouldn't have a sports team where they have a workshop on how to make the plays happen or how to how to how to shoot free throws or what the breakout players for hockey, you would practice it over and over again so you can do it without thinking. But we seem to think, well, we can just tell people what to do and they can do it.
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Unknown
Hi, everyone. It's ICD consultant Jessica Wise, host of the Coaching Questions on the Coaching Conversations podcast with Jim Knight. Are you interested in learning about tools and resources to build and maintain a successful instructional coaching program? If so, join our Instructional Coaching Institute designed for instructional coaches and administrators in this 16 week course led by Jim Knight. You'll learn how to establish a proven foundation for success, develop a deeper and complete understanding of the coaching process and practices, and cultivate necessary communication skills for healthy conversations.
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Unknown
We will also explore engagement in the classroom and coaching tools and resources. Learn more by visiting Instructional Coaching Icon. I look forward to seeing you at the Institute.
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Unknown
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Coaching Question Show on the Coaching Conversations podcast with Jim Knight.
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Unknown
This show is for everyone that caused the instructional coaching group home for all your instructional coaching content. These episodes are designed for everyone who desires to think and learn alongside Jim. As you continue to make an impact with all the great work you do. I'm Jessica Wise, a consultant with the instructional coaching group. Today, I'll be asking Jim about his new article titled The Problem of Nominal Change, where he talks about change in education and how we can get out of the nominal change cycle.
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Unknown
So on with the show. Hi Jim, how are you? I'm doing great. Excited to have this conversation. I am as well. I always enjoy reading your new articles and this one was especially relevant, so I'm really excited to talk to you today. Great. All right. Well, today we're talking about nominal change, a topic you've recently written about and everyone can find to begin our conversation today, I wondered if you could share what you mean by nominal change and why is this something we should be talking about in education?
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Unknown
Well, I have this
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Unknown
old big dictionary, the Oxford English Dictionary, and there's one that is like 20 volumes large and but when I was a university student, you could you could get a version of the Oxford English Dictionary where they shrunk down the pages to like eight, eight pages on one page. In this really skinny way, you have to read it with a with a magnifying glass.
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Unknown
So I looked up nominal in my life. You see my magnifying glass to read the pages. And the Oxford English Dictionary says that nominal exists a name only, merely name stated or expressed without reference to reality or fact.
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Unknown
So when we talk about nominal change, we're saying we're doing something, but we're not actually doing it. So we could be saying we're doing differentiated instruction or pulses or instructional coaching, but in reality all we're really doing is saying we're doing it, we're not really doing it.
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Unknown
And I see too often and frequently that what's happening is we're saying we're doing coaching or policies or whatever it might be, but it's not actually happening. What's really happening? For example, a coach actually doesn't actually do coaching when they code how they use their time. Less than 10% of it, sometimes 0% of their time is actually spent on coaching.
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Unknown
So that's what got me interested in this concept. It's in name only.
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Unknown
That's interesting. And even as you talk, I think back to all the things as an educator, as a coach, as a parent, as a human that I say I'm doing, but am I really doing it? So this is really got me thinking.
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Unknown
I wonder, Jim, though, can you give us an example of a nominal change in how I might show up in a school?
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Unknown
Sure. I think it shows up in all kinds of different ways. Whenever you have some kind of program or innovation or intervention that needs to happen. But I remember I was at a meeting once and it was with a principal who really like Richter for his work on professional learning communities, and she said, We're going to create professional learning communities in our school.
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Unknown
And so she invited all the teachers to come to school at Sticks instead of on. They ordinarily would come. And then the very first thing she said, okay, now we need to create Norm. So I created some. Are these the way the norm should be? And so there was no time set aside for it. There is no skill development, there is no real understanding of what a PLC could be and how those norms would be code constructed by the team.
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Unknown
And nobody was into it. There was no sense in which the the professionals were engaged and that's the way it works. Or someone says they're doing differentiated instruction, but really nothing's really changing except you have a conversation about the kids. But there isn't isn't real deep change though. So that's what it looks like to me.
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Unknown
What do you think leads people to those challenges?
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Unknown
Yeah, I think one of it's systemic and one of it's psychological. I think the systemic one is people are just so busy. You know, most people in charge of schools, they don't have enough resources to accomplish what they need to do. They're supposed to do five thing or do ten things. And the time they've got to do three, they're always rushing.
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Unknown
And then their job, if you're an administrator, you know, there's a parent who's mad because their son didn't get to be the starting quarterback. And and that's going to be a two hour conversation or somebody's upset about the food in the cafeteria or whatever it is. The principals are always putting out fires, always busy. And so to make it happen, time has to be set aside, time and resources to make an innovation.
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Unknown
And it doesn't happen by chance, just can't throw it together. Somebody has to make it happen. And then the second thing, the psychological part, and I'm sure there's more to it than this, but the psychological part is we like new things. You know, sometimes we call it signing it shiny object syndrome. You know, we like to do that.
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Unknown
It's way more fun to come up with a new idea than it is to do the grunt work of figuring out, okay, when's it going to happen? How are we going to do it must break down. Have we got a really clear success criteria for our project? Who's going to take on the first task? One, is it going to happen?
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Unknown
Things are a lot more fun when they're just in the idea stage and not in the practical stage. So I think it's systemic and I think we really need to think about the systemic part because
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Unknown
if we want the schools we want for our kids, people need the time and support to be able to make real change happen.
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Unknown
It can't just be a little add on thing, it can't be superficial, it has to go deep. And so I think systemically we need to advocate for opportunities for administrators to do the work that needs to be done. And psychologically, we have to remind ourselves, if you don't go deep, that doesn't happen.
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Unknown
That's right. So two big challenges is time.
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Unknown
And you're right, I think of doctors, too, when you say that principals are putting out fires. I remember sitting in my classroom waiting for my principal to show up and she was supposed to be doing an observation, didn't come, and I'm sure she had mine chatter like she's supposed to be here where she ended up, that she was helping a student who had run away from the school and they were working with the SRO, the school resource officer, to make sure that child got back safely.
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Unknown
They're constantly putting out fires. You're right. And then that second challenge of psychological. So as you talk about these systemic challenges, what are some ways that people can get out of the nominal change cycle? Now? I just want to talk about that cycle a little bit first. So the idea is that
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Unknown
we latch on to something new, maybe it's maybe it's understanding by design or it's differentiated instruction or it's formative assessment or whatever it might be.
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Unknown
We latch onto this thing we want to do and then we're kind of poor on resources. And so it's there isn't really coaching or something to follow up. There isn't really a plan, there isn't somebody in charge. And so it gets implemented poorly and then it doesn't show results. And so, well, that didn't work. Let's pick something else new.
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Unknown
And so we go back and we come back with some other new thing. All things that were implemented effectively would make a big difference. But we're constantly in this cycle so that so the teachers just say this too shall pass. In
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Unknown
Hello, listeners. It's ICG consultant Jessica Wise. And I want to invite you to join Jim Knight and the instructional coaching group team at this year's Teaching Learning Coaching conference in New Orleans. If you are looking to learn, practice, reflect and grow your craft, the TLC conference is the place to be. Whether you join us in-person or online, you'll experience meaningful keynotes, powerful breakouts, and time to network and invest in human connection with like minded educators.
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Unknown
Join us October 27th through the 29th as we gather to empower passionate educators to keep kids first busy. Instructional Coaching Hawken Forward slash TLC Dash to 0 to 4. I hope to see you there.
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Unknown
fact, I work with a coach in Lander, Wyoming, and she wasn't from Lander. I don't think she was just from another part of Wyoming.
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Unknown
But she came up to me and she said, she said, you wouldn't believe what this teacher said to me. I said, What's that? She said, You too shall pass. Which is kind of a bummer thing to say, but nonetheless. But people just the more you go through the cycle of trying something new and implementing it poorly, rejecting it and trying it something new, every time you go through that cycle, people get less and less enthusiastic about change.
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Unknown
So to address it, I came up with these seven things. So one of them is the old idea to begin with, the end in mind. I just talked to Jim Marshall about he's really a world's leading one of the world's leading experts on implementation science, and he's one of our podcasts coming up. But he said, you have to get clear on what it is you want to see happen.
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Unknown
What's your success criteria? As John Hattie would say. So if things go the way we want them to do, what would it be looking like? Another thing that I learned from Jim, which was kind of validating because I'd written this article before I talked to him, is to have a champion, have someone who's in charge of the initiative.
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Unknown
Someone needs to be the person who makes it happen, who evaluates what happens and helps with organizational learning about what's working and what's not working. Someone who's got the energy and the emotional intelligence to make it happen without a champion, it, it's not going to likely happen.
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Unknown
So let's say coaching, for example, if you don't have a champion for coaching, who is going to be responsible for making sure the coaches learn the knowledge, skills, beliefs and coaching cycle they need to learn, it's just not going to happen.
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Unknown
You have to have someone who's driven and who has the support they need to be able to make it happen.
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Unknown
And then this is something I learned from you. I call it adding by subtracting, but I thought one of the wisest things you've taught me in these conversations is the idea of how when you are trying to decide that you should do a dissertation, you set aside certain time in your day, which was your dissertation time.
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Unknown
And so I think it was 3 hours twice or three times a week. And this is my dissertation time. And I think if we if we're really wise in how we use our time, we would do a YouTube and we would say, okay, if this initiative is going to happen, here's the timing and a set outside to do that.
00:11:42:05 - 00:11:57:08
Unknown
But to create that time, I have to kick other things off my plate, which means I have to go back if I'm the principal, I have to go back to whomever it is a report to and say, Look, here's what I want to do. Here's the time it's going to take. Do I really have to come to these meetings or can I skip these meetings?
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Unknown
And can you just send me an email that describes it or can I can I take this part of what I'm doing out of what I'm doing and focus on this? Or can I give my responsibilities? If you happen to have an assistant principal to an assistant principal so I can focus on this, or how can I make it happen?
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Unknown
But it's a big part of making it happen, I think is to add by subtraction, cut it, cutting things out for thing is to ensure people have deep knowledge. And you can see this in all kinds of ways, but sometimes it's there in the curriculum when you when you're bringing together the curriculum with with teachers, they don't have the time to do the depth, the deep work of figuring it out.
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Unknown
It's not that they don't want to know. It is kind of hard work. It is kind of unpleasant to stretch up your brain and say, okay, if we answer that guiding question, what would it actually look like? But but we would say you have to do the hard work of going deep. And when it comes to curriculum, for example, we think you have to develop guiding questions and what we call specific proficiencies and formative assessments.
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Unknown
So you you as a teacher really understand what you're doing and you understand what's most important in the content and you have the time. It might take you five days to go through a curriculum it really deeply and understand it, and then you're grading formative assessment to see if the kids are actually learning it. And so time has to be set aside to develop deep knowledge.
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Unknown
A coach has to understand the beliefs, skills, the coaching cycle, the knowledge around gathering data and teaching practices. And, you know, if a coach doesn't know what their strategies are, if they don't have a if they don't have a clear coaching cycle, and then they really have to practice those skills over and over again
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Unknown
to get good at any one skill, asking questions, listening, having dialogical conversations about strategies, you probably have to practice it at least ten times.
00:13:52:13 - 00:14:12:15
Unknown
You know, you wouldn't have a sports team where they have a workshop on how to make the plays happen or how to how to how to shoot free throws or what the breakout players for hockey, you would practice it over and over again so you can do it without thinking. But we seem to think, well, we can just tell people what to do and they can do it.
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Unknown
So those are some of the some some of the things I've got a few others, but those are some of the things that I talked about.
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Unknown
Thank you, Jim. I, I think back to when I started coaching, Jim and I thought I was coaching. If you had asked me what am I doing, I am coaching. But I think that I was living through this nominal change cycle of I got a little bit of information on coaching and I thought I was doing it now.
00:14:34:07 - 00:14:55:07
Unknown
I was just walking up and down hallways, just telling people what to do. So I was doing parts of coaching, meeting with teachers, being a part of their classrooms, but I really wasn't committing time to have deep knowledge, to have a champion that could support me through it and help guide me. So I'm thinking back to all those times when maybe I was in the nominal change cycle.
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Unknown
And one particular idea that you shared in your article that struck me was the ensured deep knowledge. It made me think of learning communities within schools, how schools are. Teams can spend time learning together during meetings and then and that without learning there's a risk of loss, clarity. So if you were to suggest, Jim, a way to invest in building deep knowledge or on an initiative or something else that educators are implementing, what would it be?
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Unknown
Well, I think the first thing is you need to get clear on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. So if we take instructional coaches, so I was mentioning there are certain skills coaches need to have and there's their beliefs. What are the beliefs that guide your actions? And so I would want to go into those beliefs.
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Unknown
I want to explore them. I want to talk about what's the behaviors that they look like. I want to give people a lot of time to reflect on them and discuss them in different contexts. But when it comes to skills, I would want them to watch themselves practice a skill over and over again,
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Unknown
just like a hockey team working the breakout play, where to get to a point where the kids know exactly where to be when they do the play.
00:16:06:05 - 00:16:25:10
Unknown
When we're learning skills, we have to practice that over and over again. It's not going to happen quickly. And and then there's other things too, like knowledge and skill. So you need to understand how to gather data. So I would have plenty of opportunities for the coaches to practice watching teachers teach and gathering data and sharing their results so that they really feel competent and fluent.
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Unknown
They're not just guessing at what the goal should be. They can see clearly what it is and then in terms of strategies, that's what we call an instructional playbook, creating a playbook
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Unknown
to create that deep knowledge. We at the instructional coaching group, we've started working on this thing we call an see system. So that's impact coaching system, but it's also an instructional coaching system so that we work more with districts not so much on, let us come and do a workshop course.
00:16:51:08 - 00:17:10:05
Unknown
We'll do that to give people awareness, but it's helping districts develop the system so they can have that deep knowledge. As a coach, that is an ask questions effectively, who doesn't listen, who doesn't understand their strategies, who isn't helpful in setting goals because they don't have the coaching cycle, doesn't manage their time well if they don't, they don't do the things coaches need to do.
00:17:10:05 - 00:17:25:22
Unknown
They're not going to succeed and then they're going to feel bad about it. And it's not their fault. If they haven't had an opportunity to learn those skills, they might feel really disappointed in themselves. And that's not fair because they haven't had the chance to learn. We have to give people the chance to succeed, and that means we have to go deep.
00:17:26:02 - 00:17:45:03
Unknown
So in a way I see it. And then if they if they do give it a go and they don't have the right conditions in place, they get stuck in that that cycle that you're talking about and then maybe they'll quit and that initiative or that instructional coaching program may not be successful. That's really important. I want to highlight something you said that
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Unknown
for all of our listeners, I think you've been myself and you generally talked about this many times, is conditions are so important.
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Unknown
So you mentioned it a few times. Knowing when you're going to meet and learn, knowing who you'll meet and learn with having that community and that community of practice that you and I have talked about. It's so important to have people that you'll meet with to develop that deep knowledge so that you can go out and implement it the way it's meant to be.
00:18:09:14 - 00:18:11:10
Unknown
It's really good. Thank you so much.
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Unknown
All right. Once our question and answer session has come to a close, we'll have an epilog or a final note at the end of the show where I ask Jim two questions to wrap up our discussion before we sign off. Today's questions are,
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Unknown
what advice or guidance do you have about nominal change for our administrators who are listening?
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Unknown
Well, I've got two things. One of them is I think that it's wise to go to people and ask them, How can you help me create a system that's going to lead to deep implementation and to quality implementation. And if people are only offering workshops and they're not working with you as a partner and helping you figure out what are your goals you're trying to accomplish, how can we build in systems of support?
00:18:52:06 - 00:19:11:21
Unknown
And actually, in the case of coaching, there are seven factors, seven success factors that have to be in place for a coach to succeed, in our opinion. I mean, they need to be going after whatever might be. It's differentiated instruction. There's sort of five core ideas that are really essential for differentiated instruction. They need to be working with people who help you identify those.
00:19:11:22 - 00:19:32:06
Unknown
Carol, Tom Tomlinson and I have talked about what that would look like. So I think when you set up professional development or professional learning for your setting to take a systemic perspective and ask the people that you're working with, you're bringing people in from outside, are you going to help me create a system that makes sure this really happens?
00:19:32:08 - 00:19:52:14
Unknown
Second thing is your idea. I think they need to block off time to do the most important things that have to be done, and that means they have to say no to other things so they can say yes to the most important things. And so near, I'll call it time blocking and you walk up certain periods of time to work on it.
00:19:52:14 - 00:20:12:15
Unknown
But I think that's that's a really, really important thing too. You got to make the time to do it. There's a question. I love that if you say yes to this, what will you say no to? Right. So you're right. If you say yes to yeah, one more thing to add to an agenda. If you say yes to trying one more thing, what are you saying no to?
00:20:12:15 - 00:20:33:11
Unknown
And perhaps it's that deep knowledge time to invest in learning with your team. That's really important. Well, thank you. Establishing conditions is so essential to making change. I'm so glad you said that. Okay, I'm very curious, Jim. This must have some personal implications for you. So what experience do you have with the nominal change cycle and how did you get out of it?
00:20:33:13 - 00:20:58:01
Unknown
Well, when I started to do professional development, I was training people on this approach called the Strategic Instruction model. I went to Kansas for five days from Toronto. I got a Mountain View overheads and and then people would invite me in periodically to do presentations. And I had so many slides it was like death by overhead, you know.
00:20:58:01 - 00:21:17:01
Unknown
And you can literally I could watch people sort of shrink in their chairs. One time I presented and it was free. I was just doing this because my colleague asked me to present and and they got so worn out by all my content that they, the leaders said, you know, giving us a lot to think about. And I think we need to keep thinking about it.
00:21:17:01 - 00:21:43:20
Unknown
And it's like basically shut me down. It's embarrassing to look back. And but what I realized that is that even if I did the workshop extremely well, the workshop by itself wasn't going to make it work. And we had to we had to keep going deeper and more effective. So coaching really grew out of a recognition that it's not really talk that happens is action, and if the knowledge isn't actionable, if we can't use it, then we have to keep going.
00:21:43:20 - 00:22:20:08
Unknown
And so that's been my focus of my life's work has been how do we actually do it? And now we're looking at the system, how do we create this ICI system so that people can can really create systems where we get high quality implementation? I'm it's happened in so many other ways too. You know I'll just give you one more example is that I wrote about the partnership principles back in 2006 based on my dissertation research partnership principles are about quality and choice and voice and dialog and I wasn't really living them out even though I wrote the book.
00:22:20:10 - 00:22:44:02
Unknown
You know, equality is really about not interrupting. If I think you're just as important as me, I shouldn't interrupt. And equality is about not judging, and voice is about having the other person valuing what the other person has to say and really have an attitude of benevolence and not judging the other person. I mentioned that before. So as I thought about the partnership principles, it's not just what I think.
00:22:44:06 - 00:23:01:19
Unknown
It has to really be manifested in my actions. And so in my own work, I've been nominal even though I wrote the book. So I've had to learn about that too. And I'm still I'm still engaged in the process of learning about the partnership principle, how to be a better listener and a better questioner, and now more appreciative of the people I work with.
00:23:02:12 - 00:23:03:18
Unknown
Well, thank you, Jim.
00:23:03:18 - 00:23:13:21
Unknown
So what about you? What's your experience with nominal change? I want to take you back to when I was a classroom teacher. I was teaching fourth grade and new writing curriculum hit the streets.
00:23:13:21 - 00:23:41:09
Unknown
It was popular and the thing to do. So we got our hands on the writing curriculum. It was handed out and I started implementing it. And at that time it was a huge shift from what we were doing to this new approach. So we became very focused on getting the lesson right, getting the the lesson of the writing or the day delivered properly according to these these books that we were following.
00:23:41:11 - 00:24:04:08
Unknown
So we began to really hyper focus on the lesson. And we as in the grade level, the school, anyone who was teaching this, there were groups that would come together and create PowerPoints for the lessons. We were so focused. Not long after that is when I was invited to become an instructional coach. I left the classroom and was supporting the entire school as they all worked to implement this writing curriculum.
00:24:04:08 - 00:24:25:22
Unknown
And I realized that we were not doing the kit the way it was meant to be done, and I thought I was nailing it. I was in my classroom celebrating. We are getting to your every lesson every single day. But I had false clarity because what we weren't doing was every other piece of that program that was really essential to make the change stick for kids.
00:24:26:00 - 00:24:47:20
Unknown
So we were mastering one part, thinking, We've got this in there. We were really missing an essential part, which was everything else that came with that program. And I got out of that by sitting down. I had all six grade level kids in front of me, of this of this curriculum. And I read every book, every page in every book, multiple nights.
00:24:47:20 - 00:25:05:04
Unknown
It took me multiple weeks, I'm sure, but I read them. So I invested in that deep knowledge. And it wasn't until I read your article that I thought that's how I got out of it. That's really how I emerged from that. A better coach for the teachers that I worked with because I invested in the deep knowledge alone and until midnight most nights.
00:25:05:04 - 00:25:23:08
Unknown
But I did it. And that time really changed how we implemented that writing. Yeah, it's hard to get the results and the initiative is designed to get if you don't do it the way it's meant to be done. And that's not to say you have to do it exactly by the book the way it is. You have to do it in a way that works for that particular group of students.
00:25:23:08 - 00:25:42:11
Unknown
But if you're going to make modifications, you need to know you're modifying before you make the modifications, too. That's right. And to remember that it's always about what's best for kids, not what's most convenient for adults. Yeah, well, Jim, thank you so much for our conversation today. I can't wait to reread the article and everyone you can find it to.
00:25:42:12 - 00:26:03:22
Unknown
So thank you for giving us this new piece of information. Jim Yes, it's going to be an edited leadership and it's a column and I've got a column every other month and it's leadership. That's what this article is on nominal. The problem of nominal change, I think, is the title of the article, The Problem with Nominal change, and I really enjoyed your phrase from this, This too shall pass, but that's a good one.
00:26:04:00 - 00:26:22:09
Unknown
Well, thanks, Jim, for our conversation. Thanks, Jessica. It's a pleasure. If you found today's episode helpful, it would help us if you liked or followed the podcast. You can also leave us a rating or a comment so we can continue creating meaningful content just for you. Thank you. And until next time, go forth and lead great coaching conversations