In this episode of Coaching Conversations I'm excited to learn from my guest James Marshall, professor at San Diego State University—ranked as the top education school in California—and author of Right from the Start: The Essential Guide to Implementing School Initiatives.
James draws a clear distinction between programs and initiatives, emphasizing that initiatives are what truly drive systemic change. They are embedded in the culture of an organization, fostering meaningful change. Initiatives are designed to make a real impact.
Tune in as James shares a comprehensive, evidence-based approach to successfully implementing school initiatives. He covers key aspects of this well-structured process, including:
- The importance of conducting needs assessments
- Essential factors to consider when designing and launching initiatives
- An introduction to the "logic model" and its role in initiative planning
- The significance of a program director and what makes an effective one
- Fundamental principles for monitoring the impact of an initiative
- And more!
High quality implementation is essential. We have great ideas, but they aren't great if they aren't implemented effectively. I'm grateful James Marshall gives us ways to do it.
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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:00
Unknown
Once we understand what's going on, what are the forces at play? What are the strengths that we see there? Then to me, Kochi oftentimes and be relevant and become part of a solution. Typically it's going to be more than just coaching. There's going to be other supports in place and connections to things going on in the school or district, again, to provide that foundation and that home so that it exists within the larger work and priorities of the organization.
00:00:32:02 - 00:00:59:03
Unknown
But but again, at the very start, when we're just getting our feet wet and trying to see the situation with fresh eyes, we do. I will acknowledge, at least in my own practice, I try, even though if I know coaching is likely part of my solution, I try to take a step back for a second and see the situation of rest without a solution in mind.
00:00:59:05 - 00:01:16:11
Unknown
And then that's just the first step. And then as we understand more and more, we go, okay, well let's think about coaching in this situation. How would it work? Would it have the support? Would it have that impact that that matches the need that we've been covered? We've heard from the people we're working.
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Unknown
Hello, listeners. It's ICG consultant Jessica Wise. And I want to invite you to join Jim Knight and the instructional coaching group team at this year's Teaching Learning Coaching conference in New Orleans. If you are looking to learn, practice, reflect and grow your craft, the TLC conference is the place to be. Whether you join us in-person or online, you'll experience meaningful keynotes, powerful breakouts, and time to network and invest in human connection with like minded educators.
00:02:03:10 - 00:02:20:05
Unknown
Join us October 27th through the 29th as we gather to empower passionate educators to keep kids first busy. Instructional Coaching Hawken Forward slash TLC Dash to 0 to 4. I hope to see you there.
00:02:20:21 - 00:02:35:12
Unknown
so I'm sitting down with James Marshall, the author of this book right from the start. And I'm going to ask Jim to tell us a bit about himself, professor at the University of San Diego State University.
00:02:35:12 - 00:02:49:02
Unknown
The number one education school in the state of California, which has a population of about three times Australia. So it's huge. You've published over 200 articles, 250 program evaluations,
00:02:49:02 - 00:02:55:11
Unknown
And I think you can make the case that he's the world's leading expert on implementing programs in schools. So I'm super. And I have to tell you,
00:02:55:11 - 00:03:05:16
Unknown
I picked you to come to this interview for selfish reasons because I'm very interested in implementing coaching in schools. I feel it's a it's an area we have to get much better at.
00:03:05:16 - 00:03:25:19
Unknown
I think we're we're developing what we call impact coaching system, which is about creating a system within schools to provide support. We see coaching implemented. All of the play of Fact just wrote an article on that called Nominal Implementation for Added Leadership. And so I'm super thrilled you're here and grateful for the time. So I'm excited to learn from you today.
00:03:25:19 - 00:03:26:07
Unknown
Jim,
00:03:26:07 - 00:03:33:02
Unknown
thanks so much. I'm happy to be here. Excited for the conversation. You also have a whole bunch of my friends are your friends. So
00:03:33:02 - 00:03:51:06
Unknown
Doug Fisher I've been had the pleasure of hanging out with him quite a bit. And then John Addy, I wrote an article with John. Well, for John on structural coaching, Invisible Learning. Peter DeWitt used to actually be a consultant sharing our ideas, and I was actually a little offended that I didn't get to read a little blurb inside your book.
00:03:51:06 - 00:03:53:23
Unknown
I thought, How did I get missed with all these friends of mine in here? So
00:04:06:09 - 00:04:08:13
Unknown
right? Right. Well, I'm excited.
00:04:08:13 - 00:04:11:21
Unknown
So first off, just to set the stage,
00:04:17:13 - 00:04:24:02
Unknown
and and write so much about the idea of implementation? What's the journey you took to get here?
00:05:55:20 - 00:06:01:13
Unknown
Well, I love the title. It's a nice little pun, you know, it's right from the start, but we have to do it right.
00:06:01:15 - 00:06:14:04
Unknown
It's right from the start as well. So and I'm excited too. I'm already thinking I've got to be careful to start right in the right way, right at the start as we work on this idea of impact coaching systems. But
00:07:56:06 - 00:08:01:11
Unknown
So coaching would more likely be referred to as an initiative than a program.
00:08:12:07 - 00:08:20:10
Unknown
So you organize the book in three sections, needs assessment, designing and launching the initiative and then implementation to action.
00:08:20:10 - 00:08:28:11
Unknown
And I thought I'd organize our conversation around those three areas. Tell me a bit about first why you think needs assessments are important.
00:10:01:10 - 00:10:06:20
Unknown
And I hear you saying it's not just this is what we're not doing, but it's also these are the things we're doing.
00:10:06:20 - 00:10:07:09
Unknown
Well,
00:10:48:21 - 00:10:53:14
Unknown
So what would I'm going to just say this now, but I can say it at the start of every question.
00:10:53:14 - 00:11:03:09
Unknown
There's so much in your book about this that we're only going to be able to touch on the surface. But what would you say? These are some essential things that has to be in place for an effective needs assessment.
00:13:26:01 - 00:13:52:15
Unknown
you're making me think of two things. First. First off, I've never heard that term actionable data. I know Chris Arduous addresses ideas about actionable knowledge, and I use that term frequently to talk about taking books and taking the ideas and making them ones we can use, translating concepts into behavior. But what's actionable data? I can come up with my own definition, but I love the term and I love to hear what you think it is.
00:14:41:00 - 00:14:48:10
Unknown
Well, it's useful because it can help you see things you wouldn't ordinarily see when you bring a particular interpretive lens to whatever it is you're looking at.
00:14:48:12 - 00:15:13:08
Unknown
Let's say a simple thing like praise versus corrections in the classroom, that simple form of data. When you look for that, you'll see things you don't otherwise see. And it's the same thing, the same way you interpret a text or whatever it might be. The other thing that I want to get at, I might as well do it now, is in my opinion, and this is kind of my article for as clear a nominal implementation in my opinion, in education, particularly in the United States.
00:15:13:10 - 00:15:18:14
Unknown
I'm not to say it's not elsewhere, but I don't know it to be true elsewhere. I don't know it as well as the rest of the world. But
00:15:18:14 - 00:15:31:05
Unknown
we're suffering a plague of nominal implementation. People say we're doing policies, but they're not structured. People are trained to do it. We're doing coaching, but the coaches aren't actually doing any coaching.
00:15:31:07 - 00:15:47:15
Unknown
We're doing positive behavior supports, but it's only sort of partially implemented and they get started and it kind of goes off the wayside. Is that your read of how things are happening in the in the world of education in the U.S., too? Am I missing the boat or do you think that's an accurate picture?
00:15:47:15 - 00:16:05:04
Unknown
I do not disagree with your tip, but the case and acknowledging it is obviously I think you would to a generalization, I can find pockets of excellence out there where things truly are being implemented both with rigor and success.
00:16:05:06 - 00:16:31:12
Unknown
But I do agree with you. I think in part that's one of the reasons why I advocate use of word initiative, because to me that's more rigorous, more defined it as we both know, if things aren't defined, people will quickly rise to the occasion, which do whatever happens happens. And so I do agree also the lack of outcomes being defined.
00:16:31:12 - 00:17:02:17
Unknown
So we all have something unifying us towards in a direction towards a destination, I think again creates this space for very well. I like your term nominal implementation. I wrote an article back in the early 2000 called The Unimplemented Program Yields due Results. And that and it actually is untrue when you think about it, it just yields all the results basically of a needs assessment why the program is not working well.
00:17:02:19 - 00:17:32:04
Unknown
And so I do agree that when things go wrong in implementation and I think part of going wrong is either inconsistent implementation or implementation that falls short of what's needed. It's often do either to lack of good definition on the front end or all those systemic elements that support an initiative light within a school or a district.
00:17:32:04 - 00:17:59:19
Unknown
Hi everyone. It's ICG consultant Jessica Wise, host of the Coaching Questions on the Coaching Conversations podcast with Jimmy right here to talk about our virtual workshop titled System Support What Administrators Need to Know. We know that the impact coaches have is directly related to how effectively they are supported or not supported by their administrators. For that reason, it is crucial that administrators participate in professional development.
00:18:00:01 - 00:18:24:01
Unknown
That clarifies what coaches do and how they can be supported. Our virtual workshop system support will provide administrators with everything they need to know about instructional coaching. Join us to learn about the partnership principles that guide coaches interactions with teachers. The six specific actions administrators can take to support coaches effectively. The five Simple Truths of Helping and more.
00:18:24:03 - 00:18:27:14
Unknown
Join us or learn more by visiting Instructional Coaching icon.
00:18:28:00 - 00:18:43:23
Unknown
Yeah, we'll come back to that when we talk about someone who leads the program and how the system supports or inhibits that. But I do want to ask you one last question. Since this is coaching we're talking about what would be some elements of an effective needs assessment for coaching.
00:18:43:23 - 00:18:50:01
Unknown
I love this question And and I was thinking about it just the other day.
00:18:50:03 - 00:19:17:21
Unknown
Coaching is such a powerful solution, but it is the solution. Just like, say, propose sending people to a time and place down professional learning sort of opportunity. So from my perspective in in the work I do, the needs assessment for coaching really wouldn't start off any differently. We'd take a giant step back and really examine the opportunity or the challenge we're facing.
00:19:18:01 - 00:19:22:06
Unknown
And as I've said earlier, dedicate time to getting smart about that.
00:19:22:06 - 00:19:54:06
Unknown
Once we understand what's going on, what are the forces at play? What are the strengths that we see there? Then to me, Kochi oftentimes and be relevant and become part of a solution. Typically it's going to be more than just coaching. There's going to be other supports in place and connections to things going on in the school or district, again, to provide that foundation and that home so that it exists within the larger work and priorities of the organization.
00:19:54:08 - 00:20:21:09
Unknown
But but again, at the very start, when we're just getting our feet wet and trying to see the situation with fresh eyes, we do. I will acknowledge, at least in my own practice, I try, even though if I know coaching is likely part of my solution, I try to take a step back for a second and see the situation of rest without a solution in mind.
00:20:21:11 - 00:20:38:17
Unknown
And then that's just the first step. And then as we understand more and more, we go, okay, well let's think about coaching in this situation. How would it work? Would it have the support? Would it have that impact that that matches the need that we've been covered? We've heard from the people we're working.
00:20:38:17 - 00:20:45:01
Unknown
So it's kind of where are we now taking account of the positive resources that exists, but also the needs?
00:20:45:05 - 00:20:54:00
Unknown
Where do we want to get to and how are we going to get there and how how does coaching help us get there? I have to put it in kind of a pinhead way, but that seems like the the idea
00:21:38:14 - 00:21:50:15
Unknown
So the second part of your book is designing and launching the initiative, not the program, the initiative. So what are some crucial elements to consider when you are launching an initiative?
00:23:16:12 - 00:23:23:06
Unknown
thinking about further faster. I think that's a good name for the next book. I like that as a as a book title.
00:23:23:08 - 00:23:32:01
Unknown
So you talk about a logic model and it's a term I've heard a lot. I wonder if you could tell me what we mean by a logic model and how that fits into the whole idea of planning an initiative.
00:25:48:22 - 00:25:58:09
Unknown
I want to come back to that when we get into the third section of the book. But you talk about the importance of a program director, which is something I really believe in.
00:25:58:09 - 00:26:10:11
Unknown
And with respect to coaching, if someone doesn't own the initiative, I'm not confident it's going to happen. Tell us about why you think that's important and kind of what a program director might be responsible for.
00:28:02:22 - 00:28:12:11
Unknown
I couldn't agree more. That is exactly what we've seen with our work for reasons we're going to in a second. But what would you say would be the characteristics of an effective program director?
00:29:46:09 - 00:29:52:04
Unknown
Now, as I was reading about this, I was reminded of Jim Collins, his idea of ambition and humility.
00:29:52:06 - 00:30:19:12
Unknown
They're driven for change, sort of relentless in pursuit of change, but deeply responsive to the people of others. When things go wrong, they take the blame. When things go well, they share the wealth. They they shine the light on other people. So I think those and we found in looking at leaders of coaching programs, even their own coaches, is that if the coach is ambitious for change but not responsive and not humble, that pushy, it turns people off.
00:30:19:12 - 00:30:35:05
Unknown
And if they're humble and responsive, but they're not ambitious for change, not much happens. You really need the two things that sort of drive reliability, intent, focus on and moving forward and that respectful response to people you work with.
00:31:19:10 - 00:31:43:06
Unknown
Not so. What I'd like to tell you sort of how I see a program director for coaching work and then you tell me what I've missed. So fantastic because our focus is primer. Well, I'll just lay it all that. So we we see seven success factors for instructional coaching. Three of them are about who you are, what are my beliefs, you know, what are the principles that guide my action, my theory of action?
00:31:43:06 - 00:32:00:13
Unknown
I guess you could say my way of being is really how we would put it. How to what are my skills? How do I communicate? How do I listen, ask questions? And then thirdly, how do I lead lead myself and lead others? And that ambition and humility would be one part of leadership. But also I'm clear on my purpose.
00:32:00:13 - 00:32:22:01
Unknown
I use my time effectively. Those would be who I am. Second part is what do I do? Well, you need some kind of coaching cycle, a conversational framework to help you move from from getting a clear picture of reality, which would be your needs assessment to setting a goal. And in fact, I think are what we call the impact cycle applies for initiative change too.
00:32:22:03 - 00:32:42:01
Unknown
But then if you're going to set a goal, you need to be able to gather data. You need to know we will look at it as student engagement, student achievement, maybe wellbeing measures as well. But you set goals and then you get to those goals. You have to have a pathway to take you there. And so that's what we call an instructional playbook, a set of teaching practices to take you there.
00:32:42:01 - 00:32:59:17
Unknown
And for the record, I did the first instructional playbook ideas, but, but now I think but it's caught on pretty widely. So first part is who I am. Second part is what I do. The third part is where I work and I need to have time to be a coach. There has to be widespread understanding of a coach's do.
00:32:59:17 - 00:33:21:03
Unknown
This has to be admin support. So I would see a coaching director being behind the implementation of all seven of those things. They're helping people reflect on their behavior and setting up learning opportunities for them to think about their beliefs, their engaged in what we call real play activities because something dies inside of you. When you hear role play a real play, we can get away with that.
00:33:21:05 - 00:33:40:00
Unknown
So role play to practice the way you ask questions, the way you listen. And then they're there. They're meeting with people to discuss how they're moving through the cycle. They're building playbooks collectively with the coaches. They're helping them practice and gather data, and then they're meeting with the leaders in the schools to make sure the system is supporting coaching.
00:33:40:02 - 00:33:45:00
Unknown
Now, what else would you add to that list? I'm sure there are things you put on there. In addition to that,
00:35:17:11 - 00:35:27:20
Unknown
Well, that brings me to the last part, which is from implementation to action. And so the first thing I think just to set the stage is the logic model is not carved in stone.
00:35:27:20 - 00:35:29:02
Unknown
Is that fair to say?
00:36:07:20 - 00:36:26:09
Unknown
what's that Mike Tyson quote. Everything is going great until you get punched in the face or whatever. Looks like that's kind of the deal. So how would you suggest schools go about monitoring impact? And maybe that question can only be answered if you know what the actual initiative is, but are there sort of general principles to keep in mind?
00:38:28:19 - 00:38:37:02
Unknown
so much of what you're saying is the way we would approach coaching, so we talk about the power of we use quick wins, but early wins what is probably a nicer term.
00:38:37:02 - 00:38:53:21
Unknown
But we feel that you and I don't know if we're explicit enough about this as I'm talking to you, I think we may need to be a little more precise about exactly what will the first wins be, because those early wins, as you call them, what they show is, you know, actually my actions are making a difference. It builds agency.
00:38:53:23 - 00:39:13:07
Unknown
I'm not helpless because I'm doing things and it's changing things. And then once you've got that going, Rosa Beth Moss Kanter would talk about building momentum. Well, one change happened. Let's build some more. I suppose it even extends out to students. Students have some successes and they start to build some confidence and it grows and it grows and grows and you move forward.
00:39:13:09 - 00:39:17:20
Unknown
Anything else you'd like to say about the elements of a successful evaluation plan?
00:41:38:04 - 00:42:07:14
Unknown
Well, it's organizational learning, you know, as a team, as a group, as a community, we're coming together, we're learning. And learning is, you know, fundamental to fulfilling life. So so the work of you're describing of high quality implementation of initiatives or programs, it really cuts to the heart of why we do this. Where it doesn't work is when you feel you're not heard or when you're bullied by the data or it's poorly implemented and you're blamed for the lack of implementation or the system.
00:42:07:15 - 00:42:22:10
Unknown
That support doesn't support quality implementation. It's all kinds of reasons why it might not work, but when it's done well, it should actually build efficacy. It should help people feel better about what they do because because they're learning as a team and they're learning as individuals.
00:42:22:10 - 00:42:27:19
Unknown
So I'm thrilled. I've learned so much from the conversation. But what's this other project I'm going to hear about?
00:42:27:19 - 00:42:29:01
Unknown
You said you had another project.
00:44:12:06 - 00:44:22:23
Unknown
Hey, I think Denise, right from the start, if you ask me, I think they need that one right from the start, too. But sign me up. I want to be involved. If I can read or say anything about it, I'm I've learned so much.
00:44:22:23 - 00:44:41:05
Unknown
This has been exactly the conversation I was hoping for. So I'm very grateful, Jim, And good luck with the new book. But I hope people read right from the start. I think it's it's essential. It's essential for us to have high quality implementation. We have great ideas, but they are not great if they aren't implemented effectively. And you give us the ways, do it.
00:44:41:05 - 00:44:42:08
Unknown
So I'm grateful.
00:45:03:05 - 00:45:06:08
Unknown
Great. Well, hopefully the first of many conversations.
00:45:06:10 - 00:45:08:05
Unknown
Wonderful. Thanks.