In Episode #76 of the "Coaching Conversations" podcast, I have the opportunity to engage, once again, with Dr. Floyd Cobb and John Krownapple, to discuss the crucial role of dignity in creating equitable and inclusive school environments.
Dr. Floyd Cobb and John Krownapple, co-authors of Belonging Through a Culture of Dignity: The Keys to Successful Equity Implementation, bring their extensive expertise to the table. They explore the current state of equitable instruction in schools across the U.S. and provide actionable insights on how educators and school leaders can foster environments where every student feels respected and valued.
In this episode, you'll hear about:
The episode wraps up with a sneak peek into what John and Floyd will be presenting at this year's TLC conference in New Orleans, Louisiana.
Learn more about the Impact Cycle workshop and register today!
Purchase your Instructional Coaching Planner and get ready for the 2024-2025 school year!
In Episode #76 of the "Coaching Conversations" podcast, I have the opportunity to engage, once again, with Dr. Floyd Cobb and John Krownapple, to discuss the crucial role of dignity in creating equitable and inclusive school environments.
Dr. Floyd Cobb and John Krownapple, co-authors of Belonging Through a Culture of Dignity: The Keys to Successful Equity Implementation, bring their extensive expertise to the table. They explore the current state of equitable instruction in schools across the U.S. and provide actionable insights on how educators and school leaders can foster environments where every student feels respected and valued.
In this episode, you'll hear about:
The episode wraps up with a sneak peek into what John and Floyd will be presenting at this year's TLC conference in New Orleans, Louisiana.
Learn more about the Impact Cycle workshop and register today!
Purchase your Instructional Coaching Planner and get ready for the 2024-2025 school year!
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Unknown
Hi, everyone. It's Jessica Wyse, host of the Coaching Questions on the Coaching Conversations podcast with Jim Knight. As a teacher and a coach, I am here to say that there are many challenges that we face on a daily basis. You might be wondering how to address these challenges. One way is to join the instructional coaching group team in the impact cycle.
00:01:08:12 - 00:01:32:01
Unknown
Virtual Workshop, where we talk about tools instructional coaches can use to support teaching and learning. This course is the product of over 20 years of research that provides a framework for any coaching scenario. Join us in this two day workshop to learn about the complexities of helping adults distinguish among different types of coaching approaches. Dive into the three stages of the impact cycle.
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Unknown
Learn about the power of getting a clear picture of current reality and how peers goals can dramatically change the impact teachers have on student engagement and achievement. To learn more, visit Instructional Coaching Econ.
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Unknown
Well, gentlemen, I'm super happy to have you here. I have enjoyed our conversations over the years. in many ways, you're my go to people. When I think about the importance of dignity in schools and how we can create environments where every student feels respected and treated like a human being, and that they have dignity. And you've changed my thinking.
00:02:07:06 - 00:02:22:00
Unknown
I don't see the world differently. I just seem worn out because of my opportunity to learn from both of you. So I'm grateful for you making the time. I'm truly grateful for you come to TLC to share your ideas. I'm wondering if you would mind, since you know each bit better, each other better than I know you.
00:02:22:00 - 00:02:29:03
Unknown
If you would mind introducing each other. So Floyd, if you want to introduce John and John introduce Floyd, I'd be super grateful.
00:02:29:03 - 00:02:57:14
Unknown
Yeah. No. Well, thank you for having us. because I had the pleasure of introducing, John Cronin bl, friend, and coauthor. I would say that, one of the things that is fascinating about, our relationship is that, we went to college, about the same time in the in about the same city, broadly speaking, but didn't know each other, at the time.
00:02:57:16 - 00:03:27:22
Unknown
but, John has, been a great friend and a great, thought partner, and colleague and, I always, we always have these unique connection around, the sport of baseball, in a, in a unique and different way. And John tells us in some of the presentations, but for those listening who may not have known, John was, the Baltimore oriole bird, for a little while.
00:03:27:22 - 00:03:32:17
Unknown
And, so he tells plenty of stories, about that particular experience.
00:03:32:17 - 00:03:58:02
Unknown
Well, it's my honor and privilege to introduce, Floyd Cobb. Doctor Floyd Cobb. I would say, some of the words that come to mind when I think of Floyd is is thoughtful, deliberate. and in caring, he has a big heart. and for me, he's the the best thought partner I could ever hope for.
00:03:58:02 - 00:04:17:12
Unknown
Wish for. We've developed an incredible friendship over the years, over the last decade and a half. but like Floyd said, there's some interesting connections. You know, he was right down the road from me in college, right around the same time. he was at Howard University. I was at University of Maryland. you just have to drive down route one a little further into the heart of DC.
00:04:17:14 - 00:04:38:13
Unknown
And we figured out somewhere along the line because, like Floyd just divulged that I was, a professional mascot moonlighting as a professional mascot as I started my career as an elementary teacher. Floyd was a college baseball player, and we figured out somewhere along the line that there was one game where he was at College Park.
00:04:38:14 - 00:04:59:02
Unknown
Howard was playing, University of Maryland, and I was also the mascot in college. So I was the mascot at University of Maryland, and they sent me to one baseball game. one out of my whole time there. And I can't say with absolute certainty, but it was the same year and it was around the same time, and it just may have been that game.
00:04:59:02 - 00:05:16:04
Unknown
So there's a there's a strong chance, I would say, over 75% chance that we were there. And in that little stadium in College Park. Floyd was, were you playing second base? I was playing I was actually playing outfield. And then I wound up going to first base. That was the only game in college I actually played first base.
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Unknown
I think he had two hits. My picture was in the paper that day. I actually still have the clip. Ooh, I just can't imagine you at first base. That's cool. No, it was, it was it was a weird sort of switch. It it literally was the only game I've ever played first base when I was in college. Yeah.
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Unknown
Well, Anyway, Floyd is someone I care about immensely, and, just, an incredible source of wisdom and guidance. And, just like I said, one of the most thoughtful people that I know.
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Unknown
Wonderful. Well, I feel that way about both of you. And I just want to say, I've talked to some really great people in this podcast.
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Unknown
I've been fortunate. Michael Fallen, a mentor of mine. Dan Pink, Mike bungee, Stan your songwriter. Hammond. But to talk to the Baltimore oriole bird I mean, that is that is going to a whole nother level on terms of fame. So I'm super, super grateful to have to have you here. And,
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Unknown
now, I thought I'd start now. We have some other podcasts where we've gone into quite a bit of detail into your work, and I thought it might be fun to have kind of a more free flowing conversation just about the state of equitable instruction in schools across the United States right now.
00:06:23:19 - 00:06:38:03
Unknown
But, in case people haven't heard, the other ones could would you both be so kind as to share if a school district, if you're working with a school district, providing support for the school district, what's kind of the range of things you might do to help them create more equitable schools?
00:06:38:03 - 00:07:05:15
Unknown
Yeah. I think, for the most part, we partner in comprehensive ways, multi year type of partnerships for, for school districts who where the, the positional leaders see the problems that that, that they're facing and realize that there's a need for cultural shift in a way where they see our work is as a helpful solution.
00:07:05:16 - 00:07:33:16
Unknown
So so we do I mean, there are multiple phases and this might come up later in the talk too. But but the first part is really learning about the concept of dignity. then it's all about, using, you know, whatever power you have conferred to you through your position, to create a system of accountability. and as a part of that, there's a real need to develop clarity for how people will treat each other.
00:07:33:18 - 00:07:54:12
Unknown
And so that takes time in order to, you know, to work through and get multiple groups oriented and then, get people working through inquiry processes in order to, you know, to kind of make the changes they need to make in their immediate environment. And, so we do some, some things like keynote speaking and that type of thing.
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Unknown
But for the most part, nowadays we really, we don't say yes to everything, which I guess is a good problem to have. But we're really interested in and, partnering with, with organizations that, that see the need for a commitment to the concept of beginning.
00:08:13:00 - 00:08:14:13
Unknown
Floyd. Anything to add to that?
00:08:14:13 - 00:08:34:07
Unknown
No, I think you very much covered it. I think the the most important thing is just being able to, support, those in their ability to be able to, to solve their way out of their own problems. I think that is our ultimate goal. Every time we, we provide support.
00:08:34:07 - 00:08:37:01
Unknown
So, so maybe before we move on to the the other topics.
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Unknown
So when you use the word dignity, which is probably your core concept, what do we mean by dignity? I mean I have a definition in my, my mind. I know Bob Dylan's song about dignity, but, what's what's it mean to to the two of you?
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Unknown
Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, we are real clear in terms of staying as true as possible to, where we kind of really kind of developed a deep appreciation for the concept.
00:09:05:00 - 00:09:36:04
Unknown
And that was, through, Donna Hicks, who is, professor at Harvard who actually works more in conflict management than she does, in education, per se. And, and what she refers to, dignity as being is just recognition of the inherent value and worth, and vulnerability. Truthfully, in, in all living things. And, when we think about it, we kind of continue to go back to that concept, as much as possible.
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Unknown
John and I have been having a number of conversations of late, just in terms of of the importance of this idea and concept. and, just sort of it's, it's absence, of prominence, in so many conversations, related education these days.
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Unknown
Piling to see if you wanted to add something, John. But I think the pause suggests you feel that Floyd's nailed it perfectly. There's nothing to add.
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Unknown
No, I want to I think I want to keep it simple and straightforward, because I think that captures part of the the issue right now is, is things get overly complicated. So yes, Floyd nailed it.
00:10:16:07 - 00:10:36:11
Unknown
So, we've talked a few times, as I said, if people want to go back to those podcast, they can learn more about the work you do. But I want to kind of talk about now, the times right now, and I'm wondering if you feel things are getting better or things are getting worse. Maybe that's too simplistic of a question, but we're keeping things simple.
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Unknown
So I'll ask my simple question what do you what do you think about that?
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Unknown
You know, I, I think that I don't know if it's a matter of better or worse, but rather just an evolution. where things are going. And, you know, John and I both have this habit of looking at things through, a much longer trajectory than I think.
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Unknown
Sometimes other folks, might look at it. And by that is, is we we work really hard to kind of look back, to make sense of how we work, why we are in the moments that we're in, and then kind of use that as a way to be able to, to anticipate or predict, where we might be going and it might be the social studies teachers, you know, kind of in both of us, so to speak.
00:11:30:11 - 00:11:56:17
Unknown
And so, you know, when you think about, where we are right now, I think I was asked actually this question earlier this week and, and, I, I, I reflect back, to this, to when we were in 20, 20 and it was this unique time because, our book had just gone to publication in, the fall of 2019.
00:11:56:17 - 00:12:50:17
Unknown
And, you know, we were talking and just had this general sense that things were, about to move in a direction that, over the long term was going to lead to the place that we're at right now. and, and part of that was just, you know, from our own experiences, more at the local level in terms of, how people experienced, so when, when broad attention, winds up being being brought, to certain issues and so one of the things that, we've really kind of tried to pay attention to is just sort of the, the, the, the, the secondary and sort of tertiary effects of things.
00:12:50:17 - 00:13:03:05
Unknown
And we work really hard to be able to try and anticipate those and then be able to, prevent those from happening, as best as we possibly can. And so that's sort of a long winded way of saying that,
00:13:03:05 - 00:13:29:06
Unknown
you know, when we are starting to look at this moment that we're in right now where there's a significant amount of, not only attention, but laws, that are, being put in place to constrain, you know, the, the larger, diversity, equity, inclusion umbrella.
00:13:29:08 - 00:13:45:12
Unknown
we, we see this as kind of very much a sort of normal, and natural, on a, on a national scale from what we actually were seeing, just at a local level. And,
00:13:45:12 - 00:13:53:15
Unknown
I don't believe that that this will be a place that we will stay as a, as a country forever.
00:13:53:17 - 00:14:10:18
Unknown
however, we have to be able to do is pay attention to the pathway that that or offer, rather a pathway forward. that, allows for, for people to be able to, to find progress, and, and feel an equal participant in the, in the experience all together.
00:14:10:18 - 00:14:37:18
Unknown
Hi everyone. It's ICG consultant Jessica Wise here to talk to you about a resource inspired by instructional coaches or instructional coaches, and that's the instructional coaching planner. Are you interested in getting more organized, having resources and reflection pages catered to the needs of instructional coaches? Then check out this planner. It offers checklists monthly, weekly and daily pages forms to use in coaching.
00:14:37:18 - 00:14:57:23
Unknown
And my personal favorite questions you can ask and each stage of the impact cycle, this downloadable tool comes in two forms calendar or school year, ready to help you manage your time and coach with success. There's instructional coaching dot com. Click on resources and then store happy coaching everyone.
00:14:57:23 - 00:15:14:18
Unknown
I think we're in kind of weird times because Dei can be a trigger word that leads to all kinds of anger and frustration. So, I think if people are angry about diversity, equity and inclusion, I think it's because they don't understand it.
00:15:14:19 - 00:15:25:02
Unknown
This would be my theory. They actually have a different definition than the one that we would hope. So how would you define that? Or do you even think that's the thing to define? It's something else we're trying to strive for. So what are your thoughts. Go ahead Floyd.
00:15:25:02 - 00:15:30:22
Unknown
Well, I don't think that people are actually angry at diversity, equity, inclusion per se.
00:15:31:00 - 00:15:49:10
Unknown
I think that people are actually upset at some of the experiences that they may have had. when it comes to training in professional development, not and I think under the, in the, in the, under the guises or under the name of diversity, equity, inclusion
00:15:49:10 - 00:16:10:05
Unknown
and and I think that, I think what's, what can happen sometimes is, is that, people are sometimes required, to undergo experiences.
00:16:10:05 - 00:16:50:20
Unknown
And in those experiences, they walk away feeling we're in the middle of it, wind up feeling uncomfortable. and one might even go as far as saying that they, feel like that their dignity is under assault or that their dignity is under attack. and the, the what, what winds up happening is that they give it this name or have it fall under this acronym because or euphemism, because there's no real way to be able to talk about it in ways that, other people will be able to understand.
00:16:50:20 - 00:17:16:06
Unknown
And so, in a lot of ways it's become this sort of unique and time movement. and you know, John and I kind of caution against this in our book, this is why I believe that this isn't going to last forever, which is because anti movements tend not to be able to last for very long because they don't necessarily give an affirmative vision of actually what they want.
00:17:16:08 - 00:17:36:13
Unknown
and so if you look at some of the ways even some of these laws are structured, they talk a lot about what they don't want you to do, but they don't say what they want you to do. And so that leaves a lot of weird and gray space for what it is that their hoping for in terms of, you know, the broader legislative declarations, that need to happen.
00:17:36:13 - 00:17:57:09
Unknown
And so, so I think in a lot of respect, in a lot of ways, that's what we're, what we're seeing. And, you know, the short version of it is, is that people are saying that we don't, feel we need to be required to undergo experiences in such a way that that that makes us feel uncomfortable.
00:17:57:14 - 00:18:00:04
Unknown
John, your thoughts on this?
00:18:00:04 - 00:18:25:05
Unknown
Well, I think, Jim, when you were asking the question originally, you started with the, being under attack and then started basically, describing some beliefs that you have around, you know, what what the function of Di is or the purpose of it. Right? Like students being seen in schools and everyone having an opportunity, etc..
00:18:25:07 - 00:18:50:10
Unknown
And I think that that's really important to have clarity on. You know, what what it is that we are really trying to do in schools and in particularly we work a lot with public schools. I mean, we work with independent schools too. But, you know, especially with public schools, you know, it's a it's very specific, what the role of public schools is in, in our brand of democracy, you know, and,
00:18:50:10 - 00:19:06:18
Unknown
so even though currently, d e I is an acronym used to describe work that, like Floyd said earlier, has a longer trajectory than that, that acronym has been used.
00:19:06:18 - 00:19:41:13
Unknown
You know, it's just the latest evolution, in what we see as attempts to resolve this ongoing unresolved conflict and just to get back to dignity as a concept, what we're really trying to resolve is, you know, is, is the conflict of dignity, where, you know, from the origins of the United States, some groups of people were deemed in and even codified right, as, less valuable or more valuable than others.
00:19:41:13 - 00:20:09:07
Unknown
And we still have the, you know, the vestiges, as well as the real time, you know, practices where, where people are made to feel that way. so I think just to get very precise, I think what's needed is clarity around our purpose. Right? Not necessarily initiatives. that, that come and go. but what is this?
00:20:09:09 - 00:20:12:09
Unknown
what is really at the heart of what we're trying to do?
00:20:12:09 - 00:20:26:17
Unknown
So let me see if I've got with the two. You said, let me sort of play it back. Can you tell me if I've got it right? It sounds like what you're saying is. If we spend too much time worried about what those words mean, it could be.
00:20:26:22 - 00:20:51:19
Unknown
And maybe I'm putting words in your mouth. But if we spend too much time, worry about those. What those words mean, it could distract us from the real focus, which is recognizing and valuing the dignity, respecting the dignity of other people, or however you might put it. And then if we're going to talk about that concept of dignity, the way in which we share it should embody that mutually humanizing kind of interaction.
00:20:51:19 - 00:21:09:11
Unknown
So it's to to make your audience feel like they're not their dignity isn't recognized when you talk about things like race or culture or whatever it might be, or whatever it might be doesn't make sense. You should have professional development that honors the dignity of the people you work with. That
00:21:09:11 - 00:21:13:04
Unknown
I think. Absolutely, absolutely. And and I absolutely.
00:21:13:06 - 00:21:46:23
Unknown
And I think that I think it's important that if you if you really do a close study at, the language and, you know, some of these what I think probably colloquially referred to as NTD provisions, I think it's important to pay attention because the, the, the language can cut both ways. And what I mean by that is, is that,
00:21:47:03 - 00:22:26:02
Unknown
Largely there have been, at least to my knowledge, a significant number of, laws written that, related to how people feel. You know what I mean? and so, when you start to all that back a little bit and, you know, start to think about, people who have been historically been, you know, targets, or who I hope who speak, who experienced discrimination more frequently.
00:22:26:04 - 00:22:59:14
Unknown
you can start to look at some of the language in those laws and, and, you know, be used in, in probably more broader applications. and, perhaps with the lawmakers, had originally intended. And so, because at the end of the day, what the lawmakers want with these laws is to make sure that people, at the very least, that people do not feel or are not forced to endure some form of humiliation.
00:22:59:16 - 00:23:26:08
Unknown
That's at the very least what they are trying to accomplish. And what is so ironic about this whole conversation is that. The efforts to be able to educate people, on the needs that other people have, the entire purpose of that was really to be able to ensure that those people, minoritized groups, did not have to endure humiliation.
00:23:26:08 - 00:23:39:05
Unknown
So the same need is in what is, is, is, is trying to be addressed. The conversation is just happening in just sort of fundamentally different ways.
00:23:39:05 - 00:23:46:19
Unknown
a simple way to put it, is if we wanted to decrease the way in which people get bullied, we probably shouldn't bully the people we're trying to change. To be precisely.
00:23:46:19 - 00:23:49:01
Unknown
Yeah, that's exactly right.
00:23:49:03 - 00:24:08:14
Unknown
That's exactly it. And with when we were writing our book, we had this conversation about whether or not to emphasize the word equity. And at the time, you know, something I was learning from Floyd was not only, you know, what we we had already kind of drafted, which is the need to have, you know, positive vision that you were working toward.
00:24:08:14 - 00:24:15:06
Unknown
But what Floyd always kept coming back to is and it needs to be as precise as possible, needs to be as precise as possible.
00:24:15:06 - 00:24:39:13
Unknown
And so when we use words that are vague or can kind of gravitate toward, you know, ambiguity, or are defined in different ways by different people, they end up being not, not very helpful in terms of, you know, implementing and moving forward, you know, with a whole community because you have different thoughts about what those words mean.
00:24:40:22 - 00:24:59:04
Unknown
and, even with the word equity, even even now, I just saw something this week and Floyd and I have talked about this again and again. Again. You saw something this week with someone claiming to have the best definition of equity so far. And it's like, I just don't see how that's helpful because, you know, it's moving.
00:24:59:06 - 00:25:02:07
Unknown
You know, it's it's a moving target.
00:25:02:07 - 00:25:26:13
Unknown
Well, yeah. We're not move forward through polarization. So I think that's I, I'm experiencing the same thing. But that's a whole other story. so if we had professional learning experiences, professional development that honor the dignity of participants around understanding of dignity, what might be something that they would do, what would be an experience?
00:25:26:13 - 00:25:46:00
Unknown
Well, first and foremost, they would see themselves as part of, you know, part of the endeavor. They would see see that the effort is, instead of it being something done to them, it's it's something done with them. And not only that, they'd be able to see their own lived experience as a part of the focus.
00:25:46:02 - 00:26:07:13
Unknown
there's there's a frame that we use mostly with superintendents and with boards. We've actually, and really enjoyed working with boards that are really struggling with some of these issues right now. And we kind of got wind of it from, from someone named Jonathan Hite in an interview. just a couple of years ago.
00:26:07:15 - 00:26:31:21
Unknown
And, it's something we in education, a lot of times, from our experience, folks aren't really familiar with, but it's called procedural fairness or procedural justice. And it's out of out of legal studies. And basically what it represents are the things that people want from their institutions in, you know, in various forms of democracy. And there are basically four things, dignities.
00:26:31:21 - 00:26:32:22
Unknown
One, by the way.
00:26:32:22 - 00:27:00:11
Unknown
but one of the things that people want from their institutions is to know that the focus or the policy or the initiative is going to serve a common good, and they are going to benefit from it. Right. And so part just coming back to, you know, the professional development, part of your question was that people would see how this is relevant and going to benefit them and their community, whether it's their school or their students.
00:27:00:11 - 00:27:02:15
Unknown
And it wouldn't be something outside of that
00:27:02:15 - 00:27:08:05
Unknown
void. No, I don't don't have anything else to add to that.
00:27:08:05 - 00:27:27:14
Unknown
Let me ask. Thank you so much. This is really, really I think what you've given us, Floyd and John, is kind of a rubric for thinking about what do we want to do in terms of creating settings where kids experience more dignity in what you're saying is professional development should reflect the very same principles that you'd like to see others doing.
00:27:27:14 - 00:27:48:01
Unknown
That dignity should be infuse everything that we're doing in terms of what we're doing, or in an acknowledgment of respect for dignity. I would probably call it humanization, but I think I've I think I'm leaning toward using your words. I think it's better than than might. I've been reading Margaret Wheatley's new book, which is called Restoring Sanity.
00:27:48:03 - 00:28:21:12
Unknown
And, in the book she has this concept of islands of sanity. She says, we can't change the world, but we can create a space where people feel respected, and there's generosity and forgiveness and kindness towards other people. And, so I'm wondering, what thoughts do you have about a teacher who's in a school where raising concepts like equity, they're afraid to even speak about it, but they can see things that are inequitable.
00:28:21:12 - 00:28:55:22
Unknown
Like, what advice would you give to a teacher in, a school where they're nervous to even raise issues that might be perceived as woke? If you want to use the language, what thoughts do you have about that? Yeah, I mean, I it's the, the thing that comes to mind is, we all just I think that's the simple thing that comes to mind as I think about that is more about a golden rule, which is that, we, we want to treat one another in the ways, that we want to be treated the same.
00:28:55:23 - 00:29:34:16
Unknown
And the way that I think about it more simply, you know, I, I would discourage, you know, talking in euphemisms or colloquialisms, about about exactly what someone intends to do. So what I mean by that is that if there is a specific issue where someone is not being treated, humanely is not being treated with dignity to keep the conversation focused on that particular issue.
00:29:34:22 - 00:29:54:22
Unknown
I think where I see a lot of times people get themselves a little bit far afield is then they'll they'll they'll start using broader terms and broader categories and kind of using, you know, a word or term like equity. And then what that does, is it somebody else has a different definition for what that term is and what that means, what that means.
00:29:54:22 - 00:30:25:20
Unknown
And then the conversation just kind of jettisons off into, a place that, where the conversation, you know, wasn't intended to go. but I and so, you know, even particularly thinking about, you know, people who live and work in states where, there's a lot of laws that, you know, put certain constraints on, on, you know, how these conversations might occur.
00:30:25:20 - 00:30:50:04
Unknown
There's still broader federal law and protections to be able to say that, you know, again, we need to make sure that we're treating all of our students, humanely, and, you know, taking taking care of them in such a way that they're, you know, able to go to school, you know, without feeling, you know, some sense of of of of where you are, harm, you know, simply because of, of who they are.
00:30:50:04 - 00:31:09:18
Unknown
And so I think the strategy that that would need to be taken is, is just to continue to remind people that, you know, every district I know has a mission or values and, you know, they've all the ones that I've, you know, worked with throughout my years. They all pretty much say the same thing, just with different words, cobbled together.
00:31:09:18 - 00:31:18:10
Unknown
They all very much have some of the same values. And so, you know, I would encourage people to, to, reminder,
00:31:18:10 - 00:31:34:09
Unknown
send those gentle reminders of the things that the organizations have have already committed themselves to, as opposed to to trying to elevate or eliminate something that is different because, you know, as a teacher, you know, you are a part of that system.
00:31:34:10 - 00:32:02:01
Unknown
and, you know, the levers of change are, are, you know, are that it takes a lot of different things in order for, for certain types of, of changes to happen. And, you know, as an employee of that system, you know, you have obligations and responsibilities, you know, to maintain an on hold. But, certainly when it comes to the, the, the need to be able to make sure that people feel, you know, welcomed and, you know, feel validated and treated with dignity.
00:32:02:01 - 00:32:08:13
Unknown
That's something that, you know, is, is something that, that that all the institutions that we work with have continue to strive for.
00:32:09:02 - 00:32:34:23
Unknown
Now, I would say the first thing that comes to mind for me, just to add on to what Floyd's describing is, you know, the question being about a teacher staying focused in on your, your local sphere of influence, right, your students and what you're trying to do. And, within that focus, what people need to thrive, right.
00:32:34:23 - 00:32:55:14
Unknown
What do your students need to thrive? Now, there are certain things that we know people need in order to have the opportunity to be at their best. we know they need food, right? Their particular needs. We know that the starving student is not going to be available to learn. the same dynamic, you know, takes place with dignity and belonging.
00:32:55:16 - 00:33:28:22
Unknown
the student, who's experiencing indignity, is not going to be available to learn, and be at their best. And so staying focused on addressing the needs of the people that are right in front of you is really important. And on a related note, one of the things that we have become more and more clear on and continue to learn about is, how conflict escalates and not to get drawn in to the stuff that's going on on the outside in terms of being antagonized and taking the bait.
00:33:29:00 - 00:33:53:21
Unknown
Hicks describes these temptations to violate dignity, and none of us are above it. I mean, it's just we're human. We have these thing, this thing called a nervous system. We get triggered, we downshift. We're not at our best. that's why repairing harm is one of our standards of dignity. Because we will all fall short. So perfectionism is like the enemy of all of this.
00:33:53:23 - 00:34:25:02
Unknown
but if we, if we look at Donna Hicks's temptations, one of the one of the ten that she names is taking the bait and basically letting other people's bad behavior influence your behavior. So it may be really easy for us educators as we feel like we're in that the crosshairs, so to say, of of the culture wars, to, to to kind of push back on that and to, engage in that type of bad behavior with, you know, blaming and shaming and so on, and calling people out and,
00:34:25:02 - 00:34:31:09
Unknown
engaging in what we know escalates conflict and the thing about conflict escalation is it gets to a point where no one
00:34:31:09 - 00:34:53:04
Unknown
wins. State our very best to focus in on the issue, you know, and not let the issue collapse into us against them, which ends up dehumanizing, you know, the the conflict. and then it just escalates from there into the red zone, which is, you know, total annihilation where no one wins. So the issue stay focused on is my students.
00:34:53:08 - 00:34:58:18
Unknown
What do they need, in order to be available to learn, and have the opportunity to thrive.
00:34:58:18 - 00:35:21:08
Unknown
And you can get into the red zone pretty quickly. Oh, my gosh, we all can. It can happen really quickly. I want to ask two more questions. And, I'm going to ask, both of you these two questions. The first one is what's giving you hope right now when you think about, the power of all students being interacted with in ways that honor their dignity, what's giving you hope right now?
00:35:21:14 - 00:35:57:01
Unknown
well, you know, I don't think that. I don't think that works for us. you know, I, I think that, you know, I get energized when we have conversations with, communities that most people would think are not interested in meeting the needs, of kids. I think they would fall into that sort of stereotypical place of, oh, what are you doing over there?
00:35:57:01 - 00:36:25:04
Unknown
Talking, you know, to to this group. And you know, when you, when you, when you honestly sort of sit down with people. Right? And get out of the world of social media, right? Get out of the world of Instagram and Twitter and TikTok and Facebook and actually just converse with people and, and listen when you actually kind of get to the root of what these officials are trying to do.
00:36:25:06 - 00:36:53:15
Unknown
It's actually not terribly different than what somebody else is trying to do who might have a different political ideology. the way they're trying to go about it is different. but their ends largely are the same. And so, and so kind of seeing that and keeping that in mind, you know, there are these unique sort of paths forward.
00:36:53:17 - 00:37:26:23
Unknown
but staying on that path, requires a mutual commitment to treating with one another with dignity in the process. So when we don't do that right, we take bait. When we let somebody else's actions influence ours, we move ourselves away from being more solutions based into more conflict driven, right conversation. And that's hard. And John and I aren't saying that we're perfect at this all the time.
00:37:26:23 - 00:38:02:14
Unknown
It's just that we're super conscious of it when we're engaged in these types of conversations. And so seeing those efforts, seeing those successes, especially even in states where, you know, there are plenty of constraints placed upon, you know, school boards and teachers, and the like seeing that really kind of, shows that, you know, there's more of us who, who want to work together than those of us, who don't.
00:38:02:14 - 00:38:28:02
Unknown
And this isn't to suggest that there are people who, you know, aren't interested in this, in conflict for the sake of creating conflict. but from a percentage standpoint, they are, far less common than those of us who who know that we are all, mutually dependent upon one another for, for survival, you know, in this country, in this society, I think we're wired to connect.
00:38:28:04 - 00:38:48:11
Unknown
And when we connect, that is when we hear the other person, when we see their dignity as a human being, when we see their value, something happens. It's reinforcing. But when we get into the red zone, the opposite happens, and then we become so polarized we don't even see them as people anymore. no matter who I be, it's like that jerk.
00:38:48:15 - 00:39:08:18
Unknown
Yes. And once it's into or I'm right and you're wrong, there's no opportunity for learning or curiosity or anything. It's just. It's just over. And so if we can hear the person, understand them, communicate that we see them, and then say, you see it this way, here's how I see it. What can we do? And if then the other person hears us, then we have to meet that.
00:39:08:20 - 00:39:24:15
Unknown
That's at the heart of what you're saying. That's where hope. Hope and come from anyway. What are your I maybe I just said what you're going to say. And so I'm curious what you're going to say. What brings you hope now? Well, Floyd used a phrase that came to mind for me was, which is finding a path forward.
00:39:24:17 - 00:39:45:16
Unknown
and, and I have to say, it's, I'm not, you know, I don't find hope on social media to avoid that. I find hope in in, in in the people that, you know, we've been fortunate to, to work with and, even just a couple of days ago, I was in my, my hometown where I, you know, grew up from age 4 to 13, in Akron, Ohio.
00:39:45:17 - 00:40:11:13
Unknown
the assistant head of school just, mentioned, after we were using a discussion protocol, with leadership team. He said, this is just reminding me of, an opinion piece that Justice Breyer, the Supreme Court, just wrote about the time on the Supreme Court and, and it was remarkable how the protocol that the Supreme Court uses allows everyone to listen to one another and then engages people.
00:40:11:15 - 00:40:44:12
Unknown
And so they never lose sight that they're working with human beings and and I've we've heard this from multiple justices over the years. And I think probably the most notable, of course, are the stories, about, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Scalia and how they would go to the opera all the time. And so, anyway, he pointed out this article and it was, just another sign that there are lessons we can learn from, you know, from one another where there are people finding a path forward.
00:40:44:12 - 00:41:18:22
Unknown
And for Floyd and I, I mentioned we've been doing something for the past few years that ten years ago I would have never imagined, which is not only working with, boards of education, but, we've had, I found a lot of hope in working with politically splintered boards and helping them find a path forward. There are a couple notable I won't name the particular geographic areas or districts, but there are a couple that did not fly under the radar during lockdown masks, the anti CRT stuff like all of that.
00:41:18:22 - 00:41:54:09
Unknown
And, it's been really energizing to help groups like that find a path forward, what it and commit to it. And then beyond the, you know, the governing bodies that type of thing. weekly. I'm just seeing the success stories of people who are taking this concept and, and running with it and partnering, you know, whether it's teachers partnering with students or principals partnering, with, with their, their staff in ways that, you know, bring more dignity into their lives.
00:41:54:09 - 00:42:10:18
Unknown
And with that is is more opportunity, to experience the good things in life and the good things in schools and so it's it's from the work, honestly, from the work with people that, you know, brings me a lot of hope.
00:42:10:18 - 00:42:19:00
Unknown
Last question. Could you say a bit about what you're going to present to TLC and maybe I'm jumping the gun, maybe, like, well, this is the first time we've talked about it, so it's okay if we.
00:42:19:02 - 00:42:24:17
Unknown
But if you are, are you comfortable sharing a bit about what we'll see at TLC?
00:42:24:17 - 00:42:26:01
Unknown
Subject to change, right?
00:42:26:01 - 00:42:44:21
Unknown
Right. Subject to change. Yes. Well, we did submit, our title and it was, I think, Floyd, I think we can run with it. It had to do with, getting beyond the belonging buzzword. And, you know, the book that Floyd and I coauthored, Belonging Through a Culture of Dignity when we were writing.
00:42:44:21 - 00:43:09:16
Unknown
And you have to remember, we were conceptualizing it around 2016, 2017. Definitely like starting to put pen to paper in 2018. And it was released as 19. there were several things that happened during that time. Donna Hicks, you know, kind of helped us have a paradigm shift with the concept of dignity. Professor John Powell out of UC Berkeley.
00:43:09:16 - 00:43:45:08
Unknown
He runs, an institute called the Othering and Belonging Institute. He really, inspired our thinking in terms of this long trajectory of trying to live up to democratic principles in our country. And some people might call it our, you know, our journey, our social equality, you know, generational, movement. but it was the first time I know for me that I had thought about that long trajectory as an ongoing negotiation of who belongs here, you know, who really is a full member and who falls somewhere underneath that.
00:43:45:10 - 00:44:01:20
Unknown
And so the word belonging was something that we Floyd and I kind of came full circle with, because it was something we always knew was important, but we didn't think about it on the same level that we were thinking about it in 2018. But it's really interesting since then,
00:44:01:20 - 00:44:05:09
Unknown
there's no doubt about it, that belonging has become a buzzword.
00:44:05:11 - 00:44:28:03
Unknown
And, you see it everywhere, you see it on billboards, you see it on, in, stores, in the mall. employees, you know, lanyards. They have buttons like you belong here in this soap store, things like that. U.S. Marines, there's a billboards out here you'll find belonging in the Marines. Now, from what I understand, there's actually research on that, that how people develop a sense of belonging when they're part of the Marines.
00:44:28:03 - 00:44:50:15
Unknown
But obviously that's being used as a marketing tool. And I'm not suggesting that anything's bad with this necessarily, but, it's become a buzz word in, in some interesting things happen when good concepts become buzzwords. They get thrown around without. And this brings us full circle to where we started without necessarily being defined. And that's something that's going on with the word belonging right now.
00:44:50:15 - 00:45:06:20
Unknown
And as Floyd and I are, getting ready to really get into a, another writing project, it's clear in the research that's been operationalized in a number of different ways, which makes it, you know, it creates some challenges to work with.
00:45:06:20 - 00:45:13:22
Unknown
But anyway, like you mentioned, Jim, what the core concept really is, is, is dignity.
00:45:14:00 - 00:45:37:07
Unknown
and belonging at best for us would be evidence that people are indeed experiencing dignity in their lives or in their environments or in their relationships. So I think what we're going to do is then focus on getting beyond caught up in the in the buzzwords stuff and really what's at the heart of the matter, which is the vision, right?
00:45:37:07 - 00:45:59:21
Unknown
A vision for who we want to be as a community. And it has to be a vision. Clarity. What does it look like in terms of how we will treat one another? And in a classroom? The teacher is not above that right in a school, the principal is not above that. It it it it's it's beyond something like, classroom norms, right?
00:45:59:21 - 00:46:28:07
Unknown
Where sometimes that type of practice is used to manage student behavior. This is something that, you know, when there is consensus around, the vision and then clarity. And what I mean is, like very specifically, what does it look like to honor dignity? And then what are the varying degrees, almost like a rubric, you know, and then holding ourselves accountable as well as students holding themselves, accountable to their vision.
00:46:28:07 - 00:46:45:08
Unknown
And then three, developing, a system of accountability and not just treating it like a strategy or anything like that. So I think that's what we're going to get into. and I'm here speaking for both of us. So, Floyd, you may have had some wildly different thoughts about what we're going to get into in October.
00:46:45:08 - 00:46:51:12
Unknown
No, I mean, I think that that that's exactly where my my mind was going at the, at the beginning of the question then.
00:46:51:12 - 00:47:08:01
Unknown
So just really trying to, you know, well, we'll, we'll be sure to kind of fill this out. But again, I think that it's, it's it kind of goes back to I think a number of the things that we've been saying, you know, throughout this episode
00:47:08:01 - 00:47:24:02
Unknown
is making sure that you're clear on the thing that you're you're actually trying to do, and just not haphazardly using a word and think that people are going to know exactly what your intentions are, behind that word.
00:47:24:02 - 00:47:47:22
Unknown
And, I think that, you know, I think it's a, it's a cautionary tale that we want to make sure that we, we elevate because, I swear to you, I can put five people in a room and ask them to give me a definition of equity, and I will likely get five, completely different definitions. and, and I understand why.
00:47:47:23 - 00:47:56:11
Unknown
but I think that, it's just illustrative of the things that we have to be be cautious about in terms of what we're trying to be able to do.
00:47:56:11 - 00:48:15:21
Unknown
Well, I'm grateful to you both. And, inspired, actually, I've got a kind of thorny conflict I've been dealing with with respect to how people describe instructional coaching recently, you know, and you've really give me some thought, some ideas about what I could do.
00:48:16:00 - 00:48:33:16
Unknown
I've always loved the line from Leon Russell song Masquerade and The Lion as we tried to talk about it, but the words got in the way. And I'm convinced that, getting clear on what we mean, it's kind of almost a no brainer, but getting clear on what our words mean. It's an essential part of conversation and dialog, and that's especially important.
00:48:33:16 - 00:48:54:21
Unknown
What we're talking about is the wellbeing of children. So I'm grateful for your work around all this. I'm excited and grateful you're coming to TLC, and I'm grateful for all that you do for kids, which is a lot. So thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having us. And, Jim, that's, TLC is in October.
00:48:54:21 - 00:49:12:11
Unknown
Correct? October, I think it yes, it's October. That's right. I'm going to this, but I can't, I can't I don't want to say it in case I get it wrong. I guess the other thing to keep in mind is that by then, the Padres will be playing the Baltimore Orioles in the World Series, right? That's that's how it'll work that.
00:49:12:13 - 00:49:29:09
Unknown
Well, we'll see, we'll see. I'll have to perhaps pick up a bluejay just in case. That's cool. That's a we got or we won't bring up the Chiefs and the Ravens. So we'll just let that go. We'll eat that. Let's please not talk about that okay. Thank you both. Thank you so much. You gotta take care.