How History Class Shapes Your Understanding of the World

Have you ever been in an argument or debate with someone and realize you don't actually know everything about the issue you're discussing? Have you ever heard details about a historical event you already know about and learn new information? That's what Mike Khorshidianzadeh helps his students navigate in class and online that everyone can learn from. Everything you know up to this point in your life has formed the knowledge base that allows you to understand the world the way you do, and any new piece of information can change that.

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Oh, it's being woke. I don't even know what that word means, to be honest., uh, I ask people to define it for me, and they, they give me all kinds of things and I go, so does woke mean you actually just care about people? Because if that's true, then okay. Yeah. I don't know what your problem is. Yeah. Welcome to Reconsider everything, a podcast that dives into the impact of how American history is and isn't taught in the us. The lack of multicultural history taught in schools has been brought up more and more the past few years in mainstream conversations, but have you ever thought about what that means for those whose history has not been told or celebrated for centuries This season, every week, you will hear stories from people of various backgrounds who answer that question and gain insight from those working in education. I'm your host, Marissa Nichol, and this is just the beginning of what I call the American History Project. Hopefully you'll learn a lot of new history that will make you reconsider everything you know and the empathy you have for the people around you. Something that has always been frustrating to me when it comes to discussing any sort of social or political issue is when people give opinions without doing the research that is necessary to build the opinion they stand on, especially when it comes to topics that have never impacted them personally. Something I struggle with, and I think most people struggle with today is subconsciously forming opinions on really important topics that impact people's livelihood based on what is fed to them through social media algorithms. I don't even think we realize it's happening most of the time. The average person sees 4,000 to 10,000 ads a day, and 48% of adults under 30 get their political news from social media. This relates to how we are taught and understand history. It's the same type of idea on social media. We are fed the information, social media, websites, and platforms want us to see, which makes up our subconscious perception of different topics. With history, our perception of people of different backgrounds in the present day is built on our knowledge base. Every time we were fed a new piece of information about a culture that completed picture in our minds starts to rearrange and look different. I imagine it like filling in a puzzle piece, except we weren't conscious of the whole signifying that a piece was missing in the first place. And it's only until after we have that knowledge that we realize that that's what Mike Kza helps his students navigate online and in the classroom. He helps them form solid opinions and have respectful debates. Mike has a way of breaking down historical and current topics in a straightforward and digestible way without all of the noise created by fear and politics in our society. In the two hours we sat down together in May, he reminded me of the purpose of knowing history in the first place and how to ask the right questions about it. Mike teaches grades nine, 10, and 12 at the Victor School in Acton, Massachusetts. Which is a specialized school for students who are intellectually gifted and have social and emotional challenges. He teaches world history, US history and civics. And he also uses the history on a race curriculum in his lessons. I was introduced to him by Deborah Fowler, who I spoke to in last week's episode. First. Can you pronounce your last name for me?? Yes. I get asked this question a lot. Yes. Uh, my last name is Khi Zaa and, um, people usually they'll say like, KHI Zeta or whatever it means born of the Radiant Son in Farsi. So usually when I teach class, that's the first thing that students will ask. When I write it all out on the board, that's usually the first lesson where I will talk to them about my last name, where my father came from, and a little bit of my own experience. So that always kinds of set class in, in a different footing than it might if you had a class where someone was like, my name's Mr. Anderson, and no one really starts to think about it. Mm-hmm., because that leads these questions like, , you know, where were you born? Well, I was born here. And a lot of preconceived notions or assumptions that they make just based upon my last name, where a lot of them are not even spot on. Like Right. They just assume that they know. And then I'm like, no, that's not, no, that's true. Yeah. And that prompts 'em to wanna learn more. Right. And understand, uh, more about different things. So, yeah. Do you feel like that helps them kind of connect to you more and also maybe share about themselves? It does. It's usually, it's a good icebreaker. Mm-hmm.. And also it's a good way, cause I teach world history, US history and civics. Okay. So that's always a good way to get into any one of those things because we'll talk about the immigrant experience. Mm-hmm., or we'll talk about becoming a citizen because my father had to become a citizen. Or multiculturalism, what it's like to, because my mother is, my dad's Iranian, but my mother was born in the US and basically was white. So European mix. So having that conversation with students, and that's something that I kind of weave in. Into lessons throughout the year. Right. Just cause So can you tell me about where you grew up? I grew up in Brockton, Massachusetts. Uh, Brockton, Massachusetts is a predominantly black city. Um, the high school I absolutely love and it's got 5,000 students in it. And my graduating class had close to a thousand. Mm-hmm.. And it is very multicultural. And that is something that I absolutely adore and love about Rockton public schools. It is not something that is normal everywhere else. Mm-hmm.. And so when I see schools that are predominantly one culture, you know, they're kind of monochromatic and you have a predominant white community, I'm like, I, I get that idea of like that Brockton bubble. And we're so used to hearing multiple languages being spoken. We're so used to seeing all kinds of different people that. That is normal for us and for a lot of communities outside of Brockton, that's abnormal. So when I navigate the rest of the world, I am sort of used to this. Now, it's not to say that there wasn't racism that was happening in Brockton and things like that, but it's not, it, it's, it's somewhat surprising to me when I see other people in other communities and other places that they don't know how to respond around people of color. They don't understand. They, they, they get weirded out if they, if not everyone there speaks the same language. It makes them uncomfortable. And I'm like, it it, it's uncomfortable to not know what someone's saying if they're talking directly to you. Mm-hmm.. But it, it should be. An element of curiosity. You know, I grew up in a bilingual household, so my father would speak Farsi to my grandmother and to my uncle and to, you know, relatives on the phone and stuff. So to me that infinite diversity and infinite combination, that's normal. Mm-hmm.. And for a lot of the country and for a lot of other people that's not, as someone who is very focused on the information the education system leaves out, I have this expectation to always be disappointed by school curriculums and frameworks. But I also realize I'm never actually in a classroom anymore and have never worked in the education system. So I asked Mike about the good and the bad and how Massachusetts State standards supports him in incorporating multicultural history into his lessons.. So we stick to the mass curriculum framework, which I like. A lot of times people are like, I don't like frameworks. And I'm like, how? It's a good, it's actually a really good, I don't know if you ever had a chance to look at the mass curriculum framework, but it's really good, and they changed it a few years ago to include more things from a wider net. So you have stuff about LGBTQI plus history, you have things from um, women's history or from non-white people history or things like that, which I like. And usually it is grade bound. But in reality, like honestly, you know, a US one, class a US two class, a World History two class, you can have that in eighth grade and cover completely different stuff in. You can have that as a undergraduate student and then you can have it again as a graduate student. Right. When I was a graduate student, I took a course on Roman history and I said to my professor, I was like, This is like my third time taking Roman history. Mm-hmm. in some capacity. And he goes, and don't you think it's interesting that you always learn something new? And I'm like, yeah, I do. And I've been teaching us one for 16 years. Every year I find something out that I didn't know before. Because as your knowledge base grows, there's a whole lot of stuff that you're aware of that you, that you're like, well, I don't know about that, or I don't know about this. Yeah. And the beauty of having students is they'll ask you a question about something you've never considered or you never thought about, or you just take for granted and you go, okay, well now we need to figure this out. Mm-hmm., now we need to look at what this is or what that is. Right. And that's, I, I think that's the best part about teaching history. So can you explain a little bit where exactly that you get that curriculum? Like are you getting the basis of it from the textbooks that are provided to the schools? Like how does that work? So the curriculum framework is like a list of stuff that I have to cover, and the textbooks are really not that helpful., the textbooks I always like to think of as. A really good foundational platform for what I want to do in terms of pulling like words they should know or giving a general structure as to an outline of what something is. But then what I'll do is, is I will go to a primary source or several primary sources, and a lot of what I like to do is world building. So what was it like living in Haiti? You know, when Napoleon takes over and there's an opportunity to liberate yourself? Mm-hmm., what is it like living in China during the box of rebellion? Um, those sorts of things. And that doesn't, you can't find that in a textbook nice and neat and easy. That requires you to go out and find sources online that are legitimate. And half of what I do with my students is how do you find legitimate resources? Because a lot of people will go online and they'll try and craft some sort of argument, , and they'll pull from all kinds of things. Some of them reputable, some of them not. And that is the real job of a historian. Mm-hmm. in, in the modern era is not teaching route memorization. You know, you don't need to remember specific dates and like, you can reference that. Mm-hmm., what you need to know is how to find valid information. Really go through it and say, is this, is this good? Is this bad? Is this helpful? Um, is this useful? Is this, um, something that can support my arguments? Mm-hmm. and my analysis of it. So that's sort of how I, how I do my whole framework. Do you have any, this is making me think like, if people. Are listening and maybe they are just having conversations about something like at home. At home. If they're like, I'm interested in this topic, how can I make sure I know what I'm talking about? Yes. What are like little tips that you have for people? So, um, the first thing is, is . You can look on Wikipedia. That's not like people will go, anyone can edit Wikipedia. Don't, don't go there. No, go there. Go ahead. Okay. This is new for me. Go ahead and look on Wikipedia. There's no, every time I see Wikipedia, I'm like, no. And you go. But the thing is, if, if that's your first, second and last destination, then you've done something wrong. You can go on Britannica, go on Wikipedia, go on Britannica, see what they have to say. Then do more what's called lateral reading. Reading across multiple sources. Mm-hmm., if it's something about the government, like if it's a bill that's being proposed or there's a bill that's out there., you need to know how to find that bill and actually know how to read it. Mm-hmm.. And so when I have a, like my course in civics, we do that like, you know, some politicians talking about some law or some proposed bill or something that they're against, therefore, and you see all sorts of opinion articles and I go, those are all really great, but where is the actual bill? What does it say? Um, is this bill just a, a bunch of garbage? Or is it something that can actually do something? What government websites can you go to Library of Congress, Congress' actual website and read that? So the wiki will give you kind of a. Uh, quick and dirty, you know, this is sort of what it is. Yeah. And then when you drill down on it, you gotta know where to look. Library of Congress. Mm-hmm. an AP news article. Can you search an archive? Can you back up what you say? Because history is a social science. Mm-hmm., which means you treat it like a science. If you have a hypothesis, you need valid data to back it up. If you don't have valid data, then you don't have an argument. You have nothing to stand on. It's just what you think, which is not that great. You know, like, it's like a court. I always tell my students like a history classroom is like a courtroom. You are crafting an argument for a jury and a judge. Mm-hmm., and you have all this evidence. And if your evidence is crappy, then you're not gonna win your case. You need hard evidence. And in addition to that, you need to be comfortable not knowing things you need to be comfortable with. I don't know what that person said. I don't know what happened on that particular day. Mm-hmm.. And until I do, I can't say anything one way or the other about it.. That's like the, the, the, the core essence of history is being comfortable with the unknown. Mm-hmm., but willing to explore. Yeah. I think that's great that you teach students that. Cuz it has made me wonder with the amount of information even I will get from like Twitter or TikTok and then I have to like check myself and be like, well, wait a second, what was I actually looking at? Was that like a random person's. Account, you know? And so I, it makes me, it has made me wonder with like, if I grew, even grew up with that from like middle school or something. So I think that that's really important that you're teaching young people that, oh, it's like the old joke where the news reporter says, uh, someone said that their mother loves them. Well, go check the source., go ask them off. Don't, don't take their word for it. Yeah. Uh, and that's how he, it funny should always be funny. You have this knee-jerk reaction on Twitter. Yeah. It's an, it's a very fast, I have this urge to respond. I wanna argue with you. And on my Twitter, a lot of times I'll ask a question rather than make an accusatory remark or mm-hmm. make a statement. I tell my students this all the time. I said, if you get into an argument with someone that's trying to gaslight you, that's trying to put forward propaganda or something that isn't,. The best way that you can do it is you go back and you ask them a question. What law are you talking about specifically? How do you define that word specifically? You use this word, what does that word mean to you? Mm-hmm., don't ask me. I don't know what you're talking about. You use this word and if they can't answer, do you even know what you're talking about? Right. Because then, you know, just as a little rewind background, I have my bachelor's degree in history, but I also have my bachelor's degree in philosophy. Okay. And I have my master's in, uh, education history. Education. Okay. But that bachelor's in philosophy always taught me to be questioning and to ask a question. And a lot of historians sometimes are doing, you know, their audition for some cable news network, you know, they want to have commentary and it. don't comment question and then go and plumb the depths of that stuff. Mm-hmm.. Uh, so that's what I want my students to take away from in classes. Before you jump off and start arguing with someone, you might be arguing over a word that neither of you agree what the definition of it is. So why did you become a history teacher? I decided to become a history teacher because I don't understand the world. And there was a moment where I was in, where I was in high school and I really enjoyed, uh, there was a constitutional law class that I had and there was a world history class that I had and I really enjoyed both of those classes. And I was like, this is great. Like you can literally be paid to learn about the world and then talk about what you're learning about. Mm-hmm. and That's awesome . And the more I like looked at the world, the more I wanted to talk about and share it., but I had this, and I still have this great technical ability, so I went to college for computer programming and like electronics and stuff like that. And, um, I decided not to do it because nine 11 happened. Mm-hmm., like literally, this is one of those, like September 11th happens, I'm at school and I start people, I start hearing people talking about we should bomb the Middle East. We should nuke them into the stone age. Everyone that is Muslim is a terrorist. Everyone from the Middle East is a terrorist. And I was like, well, I'm half Uranian. I'm half Middle Eastern. I'm not Muslim, but half my family is, they're not terrorists. And then they'll say, they, they people would start making all these comments about, well, you know, um, so what, it doesn't matter. They're all, all this conversation about. Essentially getting history wrong, getting the facts wrong, and then getting into this fervor where they're like, we should go to war, we should kill. And I'm like, that's crazy. You should like learn about the world. Like understand that there is not, we should not be killing each other. There is a lot more there to this story. Mm-hmm. and your knee jerk reaction as horrible as nine 11 was, your knee jerk reaction should not be murder every., you know? Yeah. Defend yourself, you know, take appropriate action. But don't c don't, don't be like, genocide is okay now because I'm angry. Mm-hmm., because that's not right. And the more you understand about a people, the more you can empathize with them, the more you can reach some sort of non-violent common ground resolution. And that goes not just for us, but for the rest of the world as well. Because the way that history is taught in other countries and the way that people frame their understanding of, of the world is not even in universal. And so there are people that will learn a particular history or will learn a particular, uh, what they believe to be a subset of facts to justify why they're doing what they're. Mm-hmm.. And as a result, it promotes and prompts more war, it promotes and prompts more death. Mm-hmm.. And I'm a pacifist. So when my friends were, you know, some of them were going off to war and I get a call from the Army and they'd, you should join. They said, I don't want to. And they're like, well, how are you gonna serve your country? And I said, I'm gonna serve my country by helping to educate people mm-hmm. by learning about the world that I live in, because I don't understand the world that I live in sometimes. And when I say that to people, they go, but you like know a lot. And I say, yeah, but I don't understand. Like, I don't get it. Like, why do you do that when you have all these other options? And so exploring that, um, is part of why I enjoy teaching history. Mm-hmm.. Yeah. I feel like I notice that with anything that goes on, whether it's like an epidemic, a crisis, a tragedy, there's always people like blaming other groups of people, however they associate them. I think that's, A theme with anything really that happens, which is really unfortunate. So generally speaking, when it comes to history that is left out, let's say like left out of curriculum Yeah. Um, what impact do you think that that has then when people aren't getting like the full picture of what happens? Cuz we always hear, you know, you have to know history, so history doesn't repeat itself, but you know what I mean. It's like, what do you think about all that? My biggest bugaboo is people will say, you learn history so that it doesn't repeat itself. And I tell 'em, I go, Rome is never coming back. Mm-hmm., the Persian empire shall not return. Um, as much as I love Dwight d Eisenhower, he's not rising from the grave. So history does not repeat itself. History rhymes with itself. Um, history remixes itself and how do we get a song that we like versus a song that is not that great . And when you don't include a person into that, it distorts. of view of history. It distorts the pres, the the actual, the the actual events. So this is why like movie history is bad because it makes everything nice and neat and tidy and clean to have any historical events where you are excluding people. It makes those people feel as if they have never contributed anything. Mm-hmm. or they don't, they like, they're not part of a story. And when I have students where I tell them, you know, for example, we go back and we talk about, uh, tur and we say, you know, turn was gay and Wait what? Yeah. And they're like, and this is a guy that helped, you know, unlock the secrets of of, of the Nazi code machines. This is a guy that you can with, with no, like bragging or being, you know, like overstating it. This is a guy that helps save the worlds from the tyranny of fascism. Mm-hmm., that guy's amazing. and he's gay. And the fact of the matter is, is that when push came to shove, they were okay with what he could do to help the war effort, but they weren't okay with who he was as a human being. And people need to know that. Mm-hmm.. Um, when you look at black inventors or you look at women in electronics, you know, when a lot of times people say, well, well, women aren't a lot in electronics. Okay. Or programming, and we're trying to get girls into stem. Okay. We'll talk about Margaret Hamilton, who lives in Massachusetts, you know, Um, talk about how people that helped get us to the moon, talk about people that help design, uh, all the electronics that we use today. There are people that were part of that story. When I talk about us literally going to the moon. The women that helped make the spacesuit, the spacesuit was made by. Playtex is made by a bra company because they knew how to make things that could fit, and they knew how to make things that were flexible and breathable and all that other stuff. And when we landed on the moon, it's all about, you know, three guys, two guys that land on the moon and as men on the moon. Yeah. They, they wouldn't have gotten there if it weren't for women. Mm-hmm., they wouldn't have been able to, to program the nav computer. They wouldn't have had clothes to wear. That would've protected them from the vacuum of. And yet that's very much missing from the coverage that we get in 1969. And so if that coverage was there more out there, it would've changed the perception of, of where people are. Mm-hmm.. And that's why we have to talk about it now, because if we don't talk about it now, then again it's as if those people didn't exist. Mm-hmm.. And it's as if those events occurred in this distorted, weird way. Like if, you know, it's just bizarre to me to not include those people because they're there. Right. They exist. Yeah. And you don't get those events without them. Yeah. And their story is so interesting. Mm-hmm.. Because if we are gonna take the same history classes like over and over and over again, and we're gonna learn about it over a series of years, why not talk about them? Right? Why not flesh the story out? So what are students responses usually? Like if they're learning something like do they ever say, you know, I've learned this topic before, but this is the first time I'm hearing about this person. Yeah. More often than not, they don't know. More often than not, adults don't know. There are people that I talk to that are the same age as me. Um, there are people that I talk to that are also historians. They don't know. There are students that they come in and they, they think they know everything about an event , cuz I already took that. I already know. We already talked about it. And then I go, yeah, but did you talk about this? Yeah. You know, I already know about George Washington. Well, did you Oh, did you, did you, did you know about Mount Vernon and, and, and the people that he enslaved? Yeah. And the qual, their quality of life, who they were. Sure. You know about George Washington, but what all the people that were around him. Right. What about Thomas Jefferson? What about Ben Franklin? Now, who are these people that we consider to be the founders of our nation? Who are they as human beings? Mm-hmm. as real, living, breathing people. Mm-hmm., that's not what I call mythical America. The mythical, mythical people are fantastic. They're like superheroes. They're amazing. Um, and they're also two dimensional, you know, cardboard caricatures. Mm-hmm., they're not real. And when you start talking about who they were as real human beings, then students could really get into it. And you, they start to see historical events differently. And it also helps prevent this idea of inevitability. This idea that something is destined to happen. Nothing is destined to happen. There's no such thing as inevitability. There's, there's no such thing as a slam dunk until it happens. There's no such thing as the outcome of election until it happens. Or a his, you know, someone said, well, they were destined to go to war. Okay. Really? Like, uh, no one, no one's destined to go to war. No one's, this is, there's no forces of history forced this all to happen. No, it's just a bunch of stuff that lined up and it zigged one way it easily could have zagged another. and the only thing that made it zig one way or the other were the actions of people that were doing things for whatever reason that they thought was a good idea at the time. Mm-hmm. Mike met Deborah Fowler when he attended a teacher training about how to teach L G B T Q history. The training included information on laws that allow same sex marriage, how difficult it was to get that passed into the Supreme Court, and how terrifying it is to sit and wait to see what nine people are going to decide. When I met Deb Fowler, it was really funny because I had walked up to her and I said, you know, this is really great. Everything that you're doing and the new mass curriculum included things like Stonewall and included things like L g LGBTQ plus rights and talking about their. and I thought that was great because I've always been doing that in my classroom, adding that in as extra stuff. Mm-hmm. to see it formally codified in the frameworks was great. And she goes, yeah, I'm the reason that that's there. And I was like, oh, snap . That's great. You know, like this is fantastic. Yeah. So that's how I got involved. Okay. With them. So you said you started teaching that curriculum in 2019, right? I started teaching the curriculum in 2019. Uh, that isn't when I started talking about that stuff. I've been talking about that stuff since I started teaching in 2007. What I like about history on race is it's a lot of curriculum and a lot of resources that's already done for me. So I don't, I don't have to like pull Right. Sometimes the worst thing is, is even having taught for so many years, I still have to pull resources. I still have to pull stuff, um, because I wanna flesh things out more just as a professional development, um, and outside my classroom. On the bulletin board, I have a thing talking about how to address pronouns, how to be respectful towards that. And my pronouns are he, him. Um, these are things that are important to have a discussion with and how to not be crass or callous towards another human being. Mm-hmm.. Cause at the end of the day, that's what it is. Mm-hmm., these are people that deserve to be treated with respect. Yeah. So how do you see this being important for both people who are part of the LGBTQ community and also who are not? For people that are not, it's important because it shows to them that their experience is not the only experience. For example, I'm a big Trekk and William Ware THS is the guy that designed the Star Trek look, the, you know, star Fleet uniforms and things like that. And he's from Medford, mass. And, um, he died of aids. And he is culturally significant. You don't get the look of Star Trek without William wear. Th as we talk about him, you know, I do a little Unitron trek and that's the point is, is that there are people that you would go, you might scoff at them and be, oh my God. I, I don't, I don't agree with that lifestyle. Yeah. But you know, you like their work, you like the stuff that they did. You do have to recognize'em as a human being. Mm-hmm.. And you don't need to be disrespectful towards them because how would you like it if someone looked at, ugh, gross, you know, you, you're heterosexual. Ah, like, what, what is that? How does that impact you or affect you in any way at all? Um, and that kind of bigotry, I, I really want my students to understand that's what it is. Mm-hmm., it's bigotry based out of ignorance. It's bigotry based out of stereotypes and caricatures. It's bigotry that doesn't do anything to improve the human condition. And at the end of the day, we study history because we do want a better tomorrow. Do you think that because of like so much stigma and I feel like there's so many complex arguments that about something that shouldn't be complex at all, do you think there can be maybe an intimidation for someone who's not LGBTQ identifying to teach this curriculum and maybe worry about going the right or wrong way about it? Like what would you suggest for teachers? I suggest that you approach it as you would anything in history that you weren't there for or you didn't personally experience. I've never been in war, I have never been shot at. I have taught about several wars. Uh, and you go and you start doing what any good historian would do, get outta the way and introduce these people as they were and as they are. Mm-hmm.. , hi, I'd like you to meet this person. They're gonna talk about their life. We're gonna look at the world that they lived in. We're gonna read the stuff that they wrote. You know, when I tell my students, we go over the fda, we go over food that is safe to eat. And I go, you don't realize a hundred years ago you didn't need to put a label on a bottle. You could put whatever you wanted in something. And as a result, you're ingesting all kinds of gross stuff. And I like to do a lot of like literal meat and potatoes. You know, what are we eating? It gives you an appreciation for the fact that today I can open up, uh, soda, soda can, or I can get milk and I don't have to worry about that. And you say, well, what does that have to do with gay people? What does that have to, because things change over time. Things are not static. We need to look at, after, for example, gay people were able to get married. Did the earth crack in too? Did everything go to hell in a hand basket? No, it did not. What happened? We got more people getting married. We got more weddings happening, we actually got a benefit in terms of developing an economy around that. Mm-hmm. whole industry's popped up around that. And if you're a divorce lawyer, duh. Look at this more work. You know, . So it depends. It goes all the way around. Um, it's beneficial to everybody. Yeah. And that's how I like to present it. I dunno if that was too long ago an answer. Oh, no, no, no. That was great. Well, it sounds like it's important to give, like you're saying, context around historical events. You're even saying just when with gay marriage, what was the result of it or what was happening, you know? Yeah. There was nothing insanely bad that happened after that. So, because I feel like a lot of times, at least in my memory of learning history, we would be like, okay, in this year this was passed. Okay, move on. You know, I wasn't getting a full like picture. Yeah. And you need to context build. You need to look at it and go like, why are people worried about this? You know, what's going on? And then at the same time, , you need to con, you need to, when you're building a context around it, you need to say like, why is this still a problem? Um, when you look at, for example, punk rock music in the nineties, and you look at girl punk, rock music, love that stuff mm-hmm.. And you go back and you read stuff like feminist manifesto and you say, okay, well why is this still relevant 30 years later? Yeah. And then you jump back and you say, okay, let's go back to the 1970s. I have a, um, a World History two class that I'm doing right now. And we looked at television in the 1970s and the, uh, you know, was it Mary Tyler Moore show and she's working and she's like, I want the same pay as a man. And this is 1970 something. And it's almost 50 years later and you still hear women going, I want the same pay as man. Mm-hmm.. And I tell, ask my students. Why is this still a problem? Why haven't we dealt with it? And that's the importance of history is not just saying, this thing happened, that thing happened moving on. That's why to me, history is just as important as stem. There's so much influence people, so many people looking, talking about stem, and I'm going, yeah, but what about civics? What about understanding where we are in history? That's super important because if we don't look at that, we don't understand what we have, and then we can be easily duped into doing something that is really stupid. Mm-hmm., we can be easily fooled as a society into giving away rights and freedoms in the name of something that we, again, we don't fully understand. So do you think that there's misconceptions about. An LGBTQ inclusive curriculum actually is. Yes. What would those be? I think the misperception is, is that there are people that are afraid that by teaching it, you're trying to convert people to becoming gay or becoming trans, which is very bizarre because gay kids see straight stuff all the time and remain gay. Mm-hmm., they see thousands of instances of, of, you know, that's why it's called heteronormative. It's not called like hetero one-off. It's and, and they see it every day. They see it in movies, they see it in cartoons. They see it in books everywhere, and they continue to be gay. Mm-hmm., you mean? It's telling me that the straightness of someone is so fragile that in the second they see a man kiss a man, they go, well, that's it. Yeah. Ah, women, I'm done with that. Or men, I'm done with that. I'm going to become gay. Now if it was that damn easy, my God. The movement, you know, , yeah, gay people would be like, shoot, that's all we needed to do is put out one book.. Um, and I think that that's the, it's ludicrous. Yeah. And it's rooted in fear. Yeah. Over a hundred years ago there were, there were women that were like, women shouldn't vote. You know, students, people, they laugh at that. They go, that's crazy. And I go, yeah. But that happened. That existed. Yeah. And that doesn't bother you as much as people that advocated for slavery or people that advocated for excluding Chinese and Asians or for people that were bigoted towards Middle Eastern people. Like when I was talking about nine 11, after nine 11, I experienced a lot of racism and I saw a lot of it. Yeah. And I thought that it was absolutely fascinating because I was like, how can you believe this for an entire group of people? And why are you comfortable with it? And when you ask that question, that brings up a lot of people up short, and they don't have a good answer. And their answer usually revolves around fear. Mm-hmm. more you can. Illuminate these things, the less fear exists, the more I get to know you, the less I'm afraid of you. Mm-hmm., I might not like you, but I'm not really afraid of you anymore. Mm-hmm., you know, which I think you're a lovely person, so don't worry about that. I was like, I hope that's not personal. Yeah. No, that is not. You know, you look down in Florida and they, I have students that they say it's heartbreaking to hear that. Don't, don't say gay bill, because kids can't know about homosexuality. To be told that a man and a man or a woman and a woman can love each other and have families and can be part of a community. What's so bad about that? Well, we don't want them asking questions about sex. Well, what do you think heterosexual people do? Mm-hmm.. You ever get a kid ask you, where do babies come from?? How do you answer that question? Because that one's pretty, you know, that one comes up all the time and we kind of looked at as a society more or less. We all answer it in our own way. Yeah. But it's actually less an easy, normalized, Hey, those two guys, uh, how do they have kids? They adopt. Don't worry about it. You know? Yeah. They have a surrogate. It's fine. You don't have to worry about it. But why do you, what do you think the don't say gay bill is really about power. It has nothing to do with gay people. Really. It has everything to do with acquiring power at the expense of a marginalized, small group. They use it. They don't care about these people. They're, to them, they're collateral damage. Mm-hmm. to acquiring and holding onto power, because if it was truly an issue, it would've been an issue 10 years ago, it would've been an issue. 20 years ago, it would've been an issue when gay marriage was seen as a constitutional right. It wasn't brought up then. Mm-hmm.. So why, and again, that's the job of the historian. Why are you bringing this up now? Because at the end of the day, if you wanna consolidate power, you wanna make sure, oh, states kind of turn a little purple. I gotta get some of them blue people out. Well, I'll pass a couple of laws that'll piss 'em off and they'll leave and I'll retain power or all gerrymandered, my district so that I can kind of make a weird shape and I can retain power. And that's what's terrifying because if you have a group of people, you ask them, what's so dangerous about it? What harm does it do? What evidence do you have as a historian, I said, show me the evidence. Show me the track record of gay people taking violence against straight people. Show me the opposite of mm-hmm. straight people taking violence against gay people or trans people. How many trans people are actually a threat to society versus the other way around? Because you'll find that it's very asymmetrical. Mm-hmm., um, you know, when this podcast comes out or whatever it is, we're talking about school shootings. You had a terrible school shooting this past week and I stopped and I thought about it and I said, okay, how many students, staff, and teachers have died this year compared to active military service members or police officers? And so I did a little bit of research. There have been more students that have died. There have been more staff members and teachers combined that have died due to gun violence than soldiers and police officers. My job is. By, uh, it's gonna be emotional, but my job is by definition, more dangerous than a police officers. Mm-hmm. if we're just doing body count. Right. And prior to this, they were talking about people, you know, getting tos, challenging them to attack teachers, to beat them up, to do all this. And we're the ones that are responsible for our constructing society. Mm-hmm., and that, well, here's how we'll protect them. We'll have single entry points, we'll put more guards, we'll arm the teachers, or we could make it harder to get a gun. Mm-hmm., what's more important to society? Why are you more willing to. Take that extra effort to make school into a prison. Mm-hmm., which is what some students say. They always those places like a prison. No, it's not. Prison is very different. Yeah. Well, once you start having kids going through metal detectors and single entry points and pat downs and wandering them with metal, I would've a hard time arguing. Well, it's kind of, yeah, it kinda is like a prison. Yeah. I walk around not in fear of my students. My students are not in fear of me. Mm-hmm.. If I start walking around with a gun on my whole, on my hip, because I go, at any moment one of you could snap and kill me. That changes the dynamic of the relationship in the classroom. Mm-hmm.. And that's weird because again, historians are data driven. We are a science. We look at the world and we analyze it. It's not a problem in any western civilization except ours. So what's the difference? How many bills have been passed to try and combat this problem? Who is the group of people that is consistently voting it down? Why are they doing it and where are they getting the benefit? In my civics class, in all my classes, I ask my students, what is the purpose of government? Why do we have a government, no cynical answers? And they ruminate and they think, and some go, I don't know. And I go, the point of government is very simple to ensure the flourishing of the population. Now what flourishing means, we can debate about all day, but that's the only reason we have government. That's it. They work for us. So what are they doing to protect us at the end of the day? Mm-hmm., you have Governor Abbott come out and say, well, we've only had school shootings the last 20.. Uh, it's not ar fifteen's fault. Well, it kind of is. Access to these weapons kind of makes a problem. Historian will point that out without baton an eye. Mm-hmm. And we're not being political. We're being actual factual. When you had a bill that prevented people to have access to these kinds of weapons, we didn't have those kinds of shootings. Because if you just say, uh, we have a Second Amendment Right. And it's an absolute Right. Guns are a fundamental human right. No, they're not. The second Amendment was created for a very specific purpose. Colonial America didn't have police. If you lived out in the sticks, you had to worry about someone invading you. Mm-hmm.. And you needed to be armed. It wasn't for a tyrannical government that was gonna come down and crush. No, that's not what I was there for. It was there for domestic protection. Cause you didn't have a police force. Mm-hmm.. That's why the word militia is in. Militias were a big thing. When you uncouple that from it and you just say, everyone has a right to a gun because like America, freedom of speech. Yeah. Guns. No, that's crazy. Land militia's purpose was to protect the population. This is obviously not happening. Mm-hmm., we have higher gun deaths than anyone else, and that's something that we have to talk about in a classroom in a meaningful way. There have been more than 300 mass shootings in America since I spoke to Mike in May. I wanna go back to what you said too about people bringing up, well, teachers should be armed and Yeah. And like you're, I think you're the first person I talked to who put it into the perspective of that like breaches trust between teacher and a student. How you're saying it's putting you against your own students. Yeah. And when you're talking about maybe sensitive topics where a student should be able to trust you and learn from you, I mean, I think that would totally change the dynamic of that classroom is a relationship. It's a hybrid of you and them. One time I had a, a student, they were just joking cause I, I like to have fun in class. One student said, ah, this class sucks. And I was like, well, you know, it takes half. And then they were like, what? And I was like, yeah, it's, it sucks. It's, you're part of this class, man. It sucks cuz of you. And they, they're like, what? And I was like, ah, I'm just kidding. And we were joking around. Yeah. Um, obviously we're in serious, but I, you know, in the morning I get in, I'm my big cup of coffee. I like log in. I'm, you know, you, you gotta get everything going. And you mean to tell me you're gonna give a teacher a gun? That's like one more extra thing that I need to worry about. Mm-hmm. one more extra thing that I need to manage and I screw that up. Somebody can die. Super easy. Mm-hmm.. So how does that help? Learning American history isn't just about learning what happened in America. It also involves learning about America's relationship with other countries. The Iran hostage crisis took place from 1979 to 1981, in which students in Iran ceased American citizens at the US Embassy and held 52 of them hostage for more than a year. This took place during the aftermath of Iran's Islamic Revolution that culminated in the overthrow of the Pami dynasty altering the relationship between Iran and the United States. The people held hostage were released after negotiations were held, involving frozen Iranian assets and lifting the trade embargo on oil. A lot of times when you'll hear, and I'm always curious about this, for history teachers and for the way that it is presented, a lot of times it's presented in an asymmetric way. It's presented as the United States and its relationship with Iran and how we interact, you know, the hostage situation and how it was resolved, and then what went on. There's not, there's a book that was put out and it's about the relationship between Iran and America, and it was written by Iranian and he does his research in Iran and he does his research in the United States, and he talks about how a lot of people start in 1979 as their starting point. Not a lot of historians and not a lot of classrooms will go back to 1953 with what the CIA did. Not a lot of people will go even further. To this sort of back and forth between the US and Iran being in a very, in a very positive reciprocity in the 19th century before it kind of spun out the events of 1953. Mike is referring to is the CIA's involvement in the KU deta against Iran's elected Prime Minister Mohamed Masek, which the agency has publicly admitted to NPR reported in an article and in their podcast through line that over the course of four days in August, 1953, senior officer Kermit Roosevelt Jr. Orchestrated two attempts to destabilize the government of Iran. Mossad introduced a range of social and economic policies, including the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry. He broke off negotiations and denied the British of any further involvement in Iran's oil industry. Which resulted in Britain going to the United States for help. Roosevelt seized control of the Iranian press by buying them off with bribes and circulating anti masad egg propaganda. He also recruited allies among the Islamic clergy and convinced the Shaw that Masad egg was a threat. The last step was an attempt to apprehend Masad at his house, but the CU Deja failed because he learned of it and fought back, announcing his victory over the radio. The next day when Roosevelt orchestrated a second coup, he succeeded. Mossad was placed on trial and spent his life under house arrest. The cha returned to power and ruled for another 25 years until the 1979 Iranian revolution. I think if people understood this history between Iran and America more in depth, they would look at the female led protests occurring in Iran right now differently. This powerful wave of protests following the murder of Masa Amini after she was arrested for wearing her head scarf improperly are calling for a regime change, and it is being led by fearless women who are cutting their hair and burning their hijabs. During an interview with C B S cia, a director William Burns promised support for the free flow of information inside Iran. After the Iranian government shut down internet access for its people amid ongoing protests, the Washington Post reported that Burns Did this while sidestepping questions on whether the US government would actually deploy the technical means to skirt an internet blackout. Iranian American activists Mossi AIA says the global feminist movement has abandoned women in Iran. At the Oslo Freedom Forum, she said, I am not here to ask western countries to save the Iranian people. Iranian women are brave enough to save themselves. Today I'm here to ask Western countries to stop negotiating with our murderers., they don't spend the time to look at that. Mm-hmm., um, it, it's only when it became a flashpoint in the news media that that's their starting point. And in many instances, there's not an attempt to understand the culture of Iran or the culture of the Middle East. Mm-hmm. and the, there are a lot of people that will feed into not bothering to learn about why these countries are the way that they are not bothering to learn about what the other powers that were around them, what they did to them. And I'm not saying that to justify their actions, cuz a lot of their actions are unjustifiable in my view. But it is something to look at and to say it's not, it's not unknowable. And in order to have a better relationship, in order to have a better understanding of these people, we need to be more balanced in how we explore these things. Mm-hmm., we need to listen to that other side just to understand it and to put it into context. And that's true for. Everywhere. Why? Why do some countries do the things that they do? Who's in control? And how did that happen? Uh, that's worth exploring. Mm-hmm.. And so why do you think that is important for people to know? It's important for people to know because it will allow them to have less of a knee-jerk reaction towards something. Mm-hmm., it doesn't make everyone in the world a villain. It makes everyone more three-dimensional. And that goes for the other side. You know, when we look at, uh, you know, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, why is it that those things happen? What prompted those events to occur? If we don't understand that, we can't respond in a way that will prevent that from happening again. Mm-hmm.. . So do you think if we learned more or differently about Middle Eastern people in the US and the history of that, that Middle Eastern people would be treated differently day to day? Yeah, I think the, the, the more, like for example, after nine 11, the number one group that was attacked were mostly Sikhs people that were from India because they would wear a turban and there's this like stereotype of Middle Eastern people wearing turbines and they go after the wrong people, quote unquote. Um, even today you look and you'll say, you know, you'll, you'll see people that are against Russian's, invasion of u uh, of Ukraine. And so they have Russians that live in the United States and they take their, their, their anger as to what Russia's doing to Ukraine out on Russians living in the United. as if they're the ones that are doing these atrocities. They're not. And yet they're the ones that are suffering for it. Those people are not the people that should be targeted. Mm-hmm., those are the people that we're not, they're really, we don't need to deal with those people. Those people are trying to live like anybody else. The people that require, uh, attention are the people that live in Russia. The people that are allowing this to go on, that are perpetuating this, that don't believe they have a choice. Mm-hmm. because they either fear for their lives or they have bought into whatever they've been told that makes them think that this is okay. Mm-hmm., and that that's the real danger, because once you've convinced someone that someone else is their enemy, it's very hard. Untie that knot. And so if your natural thought processes, they're a bad guy and I don't like them, and then you get movies like, how many movies do I see where a Middle Eastern person is the bad guy? How many movies do I see where they are, the terrorists, um, where they are a stereotype that is connected to that. Hmm. Uh, there are a lot of them and there are not that many where they're just sort of benign. You know, Hey, here I am just living mm-hmm., here I am. This is a supporting character. Yeah. You know, or a lead role. And, and, and my ethnicity doesn't play into anything negative. Mm-hmm., um, you don't see that. And that's why representation in media is so critical. Yeah. People say like, oh, it's being woke. I don't even know what that word. To be honest, , uh, I ask people to define it for me and they, they give me all kinds of things and I go, so does woke mean you actually just care about people? Because if that's true, then okay. Yeah. I don't know what your problem is. Yeah. Were there any specific points at any time when you went through school that you were disappointed with how something was taught in a history class? Yeah., a lot of times there are teachers, and I've been very lucky to have some great teachers, to be honest, but there have been some teachers, um, that have been way too comfortable with minimizing atrocity or rationalizing bad behavior. or presenting something as, as I said earlier, inevitable. Mm-hmm., or presenting people in very simplistic ways that you don't need to do that. Mm-hmm., um, or completely excluding entire groups of people for the sake of we don't have enough time. Mm-hmm. and I will sometimes exclude major people. Why am I gonna give you something easy to find and spend so much time on that? Mm-hmm., when I can give you something that's truly unique, meaningful, and adds to the larger context of things. Mm-hmm., even our founders, you know, they perpetuate myths about why we are a country or what we, you know, This idea that the United States can do no wrong is bizarre. This idea that the founders are essentially god's is bizarre. Mm-hmm., the idea that amendments can never be changed is not only inconsistent and illogical, but bizarre. Mm-hmm., the idea that other countries are sometimes permanent enemies mm-hmm., or that everywhere else is uncivilized or barbaric or backwards is weird. And that sort of Eurocentric Western centric mm-hmm. you know, um, when I did the Chinese Exclusion Act unit, and I was talking about some of these other acts that were put forth and some of the, the posters that were put up at the time, there was a poster that was talking about how backwards and savage the Chinese were, and the one guy was holding a gun. And I said, you know what's weird about this? This picture here, this poster here, I soon was like, what? I said, great technology of China was gunpowder, paper, compass printing, uh, block printing. Mm-hmm., this poster itself would not exist without those four Chinese inventions. Mm-hmm., because the compass allowed all those people to come here to be bigot, to be bigots. It allowed them to have the gun to shoot people with. Mm-hmm.. It allowed them to have the paper and it allowed them to have the block printing to put this out without those Chinese technologies. You can't call it Chinese savages and barbarians. Isn't that weird? You're insulting them with their very own technological creations that you never made. Mm-hmm.. That's bizarre. So to not give credit where credit is due, I've seen that happen too many times in classrooms. Mm-hmm., I've also seen an overemphasis. on glorification of war, glorification of death, and presenting war and, you know, war and death as an acceptable solution to problems. Mm-hmm., not a tragic breakdown of communication, not a destruction of civilization, not the true horror that it is. Mm-hmm., whenever I'm in class, I don't spend a lot of time on the actual war. Mm-hmm., I spend, uh, on the aftermath. What's it like to live in a bombed out city? What's it like to go? The war is over and I don't have any food to eat. I don't have any clothes to wear. The war's over the credits have rolled, the movie's done. Everyone's in the hallways eating popcorn, talking about how great it was. Meanwhile, Europe is still starving. And to me not connecting those historical things from the past to the present, acting as if they're independent in a capsule, that is a true tragedy. I was curious, why do you think so much like in history courses or American history courses? There's an emphasis on the US relationship with European countries and not other parts of the world. Our relationship with the rest of the world is not always stellar. Our relationship with Europe is something that a lot of Americans can wrap their mind around because that's been part of the story from the beginning. My dad came here in 1977 Okay. And had the full immigrant experience. And when talking about history of Iran, From his perspective, uh, it's, it's very much living in Shiraz and living in Abbadon. And it's weird because again, I think that drives the way that I teach history. A lot of classrooms don't talk about daily, everyday life. They don't, they don't world build. Mm-hmm., they caricature build and that's dangerous. So I think there's, there's that element. Um, in terms of studying Iran, I did a lot of work in grad school and just even before that, just reading about it, reading about its culture. Um, just as an aside, like when you look at Tism, which is an ancient Persian religion, the Magi is where we get the word magic from. And yet many Europeans act as if they're the ones that invented magic. Maji is a religious group. They're the leaders of SRAs, and they're the ones that created the concept of like, for example, the magic wand. The maja wand was a piece of wood, three pieces of wood, three uh, uh, sticks that were woven together so you could take fire from one place, one fire temple to another, from one area of the fire to the other to transfer it. And yet that origin story gets lost. Mm-hmm.. It's really weird when I watch a movie and they'll be doing magical incantations in Latin as if the Romans were the ones that are connected to magic. Mm-hmm., magi, all of these things which are Persian and origin. Mm-hmm., if you're ever doing an ancient spell, you should be speaking archaic, Farsi, not Latin. Mm-hmm.. And that's, I think that's the weird thing that is subtract, it seems like a little thing. It seems like con who cares? It's magic, whatever. Yeah. But the entire religion of Tism Tian, uh, mythology, religion, belief structure doesn't get talked about yet. It's the first dualistic religion. Mm-hmm., the first religion that has all these elements that you see in Judaism, in Christianity, and in Islam. The A Abrahamic religions have a lot that connects back to Zorra. Mm-hmm.. And so it's very bizarre that people will talk about magic or talk about those sorts of things without mentioning Iran or mentioning ancient Persia or mentioning where it comes from. Even in the modern, when people talk about the story of Christ and they'll talk about the three wise men, they were Mai. And so when people talk about being against Iran and against Persians, and Well, by the way, Merry Christmas. Okay. Your origin story for your Messiah involves my people. Mm-hmm.. And you don't have a good relationship with my people right now. Maybe you might wanna fix that, and that's what I was talking about earlier, but like why you need to include people right as they were. Mm-hmm., because otherwise you start distorting history right into a weird, you know, the movie version of mes, A white guy with short blonde hair., you know? Hmm. Because it sells better. Yeah.. So you said your wife is Colombian, right? Yeah, my wife is Colombian. And you have a daughter? I do. Okay. So, um, and you mentioned that that has now opened up your perspective to how Latin people are represented in history. My daughter, who's half Colombian, a quarter Iranian and a quarter European white mix, she's all American. She was born in Boston. She's an American. And that's what the United States, that's the, that's the, uh, what is that? This the, the, the great melting pot. Mm-hmm., the great mixing stew, the whatever you want it to be. Mm-hmm. to be American is, is to be part of an ethereal idea of equality, of equity, of justice. The idea is so awesome, and when people are not living up to that, that's a, in that in the Constitution, it's to form a more perfect union., that idea that we're continually progressing to be better than, than we, we were. That's amazing to me. Mm-hmm.. And when I look at my daughter and I go, you know, you're all these different things and you're the very best, you know? Mm-hmm., you have all these wonderful, beautiful qualities that are so fantastic and how anyone could just look at you through one lens. Mm-hmm. to use that as an excuse to minimize you because you're a girl. Because you know, one day you'll be a, a young woman or you know, because you are, you know, you are brown. How anyone could use that against you to, to keep you down is disgusting. It's horrific. So how does that specifically influence how you teach US history? I tell my students sometimes I have the romanticism of the idea versus the reality of what it is. I asked Mike how he manages teaching students more multicultural history with the limited time that there is in a school year. He said, besides working in as much as he can and keeping pace, it also involves getting students into researching this information on their own and developing a curious mind about things. I think it's an attitude. Mm-hmm., I don't like it when students say I'm not smart. And I say smart is not something that, that is built in. Smart is an attitude. Mm-hmm. Smart is curious. Smart is wanting to learn. Everyone is smart. Um, you just choose to not know things. You've gotta put that in them and you've gotta also provide them with, sometimes I provide supplemental stuff where I go, I'm not, we're gonna talk a little bit about this book. Um, if I can find the full free version online, I'm gonna post it right here in classroom. Mm-hmm.. So if you wanna learn more, you can. If you don't, you don't have to. Mm-hmm.. And I think that that's the, the other thing is you've gotta provide students. the tools to like, Hey, here's a cool website you can go to. A lot of stuff that I do is web-based with primary sources, library of Congress, um, various archives, various libraries, various reputable sources to get them into the habit of going to places that they can trust. Mm-hmm., I, I think that it's important for every person to really take a critical look at, at history, particularly American history mm-hmm. and to slow down online with everyone trying to out maneuver people. And this, this almost bizarre desire to win in argument mm-hmm. rather than to plumb the depths of understanding a topic. History is not something that. happened. It's happening. Mm-hmm.. Imagine what you are doing today, how that's gonna be recounted in a history book. Where do you want to be? Do you want to be known as someone that made life more difficult for other people or made it better? What do you want to be? Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Reconsider Everything. If you enjoy the conversation today, subscribe for more episodes and leave a review. I am your host, Marissa Nichol. This interview was recorded by Tim Burdock. Narration were recorded by Lounge Studios, and this episode was edited by Jake Stevens. All music was composed by Alex Joaquin, and Cover Art was created by Olivia Nickel. Continue your education on our social media handles and at the resource list in the description below, and join us every Tuesday for another episode.