Plant Based Curious
Plant Powered Proteins: What You Need to Know with Brenda Davis RD
In this episode of Plant Based Curious, I had the privilege of sitting down with the legendary Brenda Davis, RD, an internationally renowned dietitian who's a trailblazer in the world of plant-based nutrition. Together, we journeyed through the captivating landscape of plant-based proteins. Brenda enlightened me on the actual protein requirements of our bodies and debunked some widely-held myths, especially concerning athletes. One of the most profound moments was hearing about her time in the Marshall Islands and a heartwarming story about her son’s epiphany on food. If you’ve ever wondered about the global perspective on protein or the link between plant-based diets and athletic performance, this conversation is for you. And trust me, after our chat, her book "Plant-Powered Protein" is now on my must-read list!
Brenda's Website:
https://brendadavisrd.com/us-books
Check out our resources:
In this episode of Plant Based Curious, I had the privilege of sitting down with the legendary Brenda Davis, RD, an internationally renowned dietitian who's a trailblazer in the world of plant-based nutrition. Together, we journeyed through the captivating landscape of plant-based proteins. Brenda enlightened me on the actual protein requirements of our bodies and debunked some widely-held myths, especially concerning athletes. One of the most profound moments was hearing about her time in the Marshall Islands and a heartwarming story about her son’s epiphany on food. If you’ve ever wondered about the global perspective on protein or the link between plant-based diets and athletic performance, this conversation is for you. And trust me, after our chat, her book "Plant-Powered Protein" is now on my must-read list!
Brenda's Website:
https://brendadavisrd.com/us-books
Check out our resources:
human beings need about 10 to 15% of calories from protein, and almost all whole plant foods exceed that 10%. The only sort of category of foods that would average below the 10% is fruit.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Plant-Based Curious podcast, a place to explore and discover the plant-based and vegan lifestyle. Each week, we'll talk about our own stories and real discoveries, alongside our experts and experienced guests, about changing behaviors, whole food, living, nutrition and the amazing facts and positive curiosities about veganism. We're here for you as a guide and a place to gather resources, but with the simple click of our subscribe button, you're allowing yourself a little time and good energy to listen, laugh and indulge in the lifestyle you may love. Please welcome your host, a certified holistic coach and plant-based lifestyle believer, diane Randall.
Speaker 3:Hello and welcome everyone. Today we're diving deep into the world of plant-based protein. Our guest today is Brenda Davis, the author of the recently published book Plant-Powered Protein. Brenda is a plant-based nutrition pioneer, a registered dietitian and internationally acclaimed speaker, and she is the perfect person to answer the question where do plant-based people get their protein? Ha, ha, ha ha.
Speaker 1:You know it's so funny because that's why we wrote this book. Our publisher said every time I'm at an exhibit hall, he said I just get asked this question over and over again. It's so frustrating. And he said I think you guys need to write a book about it. So we said why not?
Speaker 1:There's a lot of controversy around protein and there are changing needs throughout the life cycle and there's questions with athletes and with the environment and all of these things, and we thought why not? It seems to be a very reasonable topic. You know, when somebody asks me where I get my protein, I generally just say I get it from plants and I say beans and lentils and tofu and seeds and a lot of other plant foods. But if they're sort of willing to carry on the discussion a little more, I explain to them that people, human beings, need about 10% to 15% of calories from protein and almost all whole plant foods exceed that 10%. The only sort of category of foods that would average below the 10% is fruit, and a lot of people don't realize that legumes have about 20% to 40% of calories from protein.
Speaker 1:If you include veggie meats they can have up to 60% or 70% of calories from protein, and but even non-starchy vegetables are about 10% to 40% of calories from protein. Most nuts and seeds and grains are 10% to 25% or so, and so if you eat a mix of plant foods, it's actually challenging not to get enough protein, unless you dilute your food with a lot of sugar and oil, both of which don't have any protein at all. If you have a lot of those and you're eating a really junky plant-based diet, where you're generally going to get enough protein and what's interesting is in North America, most people eating plant-based diets get about 50% more protein than their biological requirements, and so it's not as challenging as many people think. The thing is, we were raised to think that meat is the main source of protein.
Speaker 3:Meat is the main source of protein Brennan. I've even had doctors over the years. I've had a handful of doctors that when I tell them I don't eat meat or dairy, they run all these tests, all these tests to check my blood, my B12. They suffer from protein. So how do you explain to people the difference between the animal protein and the plant-based protein and why plant-based is better?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what I generally say is we make proteins in our bodies. Protein is super important because it's what our body tissues are made of. It's what we use to build hormones and neurotransmitters and all antibodies. And we just need protein for a lot of things, and we need 20 different amino acids which are the building blocks of protein. Nine of those are considered essential, and essential just means that we can't actually make them. We have to get them from food.
Speaker 1:And what a lot of people don't know is all 20 of those amino acids are present in every single plant food. As a matter of fact, they're kind of the original source. They are responsible for producing those essential amino acids because we can't make them. They're made generally by plants and so we get them either directly or indirectly from plants. And the big concern about plants is a lot of people think well, aren't plants lacking one or more of these essential amino acids? And in fact they have all of these essential amino acids.
Speaker 1:However, some plants if you look at a preschooler's need they need a certain number of milligrams of each essential amino acid per gram of protein consumed, and let's say they need 20 grams of protein For each one of those grams. They would need as 58 milligrams of lysine, for example. And so if all they ate was 20 grams of protein and all of that protein came from rice, they wouldn't get enough lysine. Okay, but we tend not to eat just one food, we tend to eat a variety of foods, and so, yes, it's true that rice is a little low in lysine, but legumes are quite high in lysine, and so when we're eating this sort of mix of foods, if we get enough calories and we eat a variety of plant foods throughout the day, we generally don't have to worry about the individual amino acids. We will get plenty of all of those that we require.
Speaker 3:So, brenda, let me ask you, because this is really an international show how does the global idea of protein stack up against what we think in the US? Is it the same or does it differ?
Speaker 1:Well, it differs in a sense because there are many parts of the world where getting enough food is still an issue, and so the thinking in many of those countries is that, well, when children eat meat and milk, they tend to be less malnourished than the children that are just eating rice. But for those children, the reality is they would be healthier long term if, instead of adding meat and milk, they actually added beans and vegetables, which are way less expensive than meat and milk. And so one of the things that I think we've gotten wrong is we have, over many, many decades, defined protein quality based solely on the amino acid profile of the food, but we've got to, I think, widen our definition, to start to consider the ecological and the ethical impacts of our protein sources, and not only that. We need to think about the long term health consequences of our protein choices, and what we know is, in terms of mortality, for example, people actually do much better getting their protein from plants than from animals. I'm not just throwing this out there.
Speaker 1:This has been shown in study after study. There was actually a huge NIH study it was from 2020 and it was over 400,000 individuals and they found that replacing just 3% of calories, which is 60 calories in a 2,000 calorie diet. That's less than one egg. It's about an ounce of meat. So if we replace, you know, that small amount of animal protein with plant protein, we could reduce mortality by 10%. And again, to put this in even greater perspective, because they looked at individual animal foods and they found eggs had the biggest negative impact. I mean, processed meat has a tremendous negative impact. Right Red meat has a pretty big negative impact. But if we did the math and we replaced one large egg, two ounces of meat and a cup of milk we with plant protein sources, we could reduce risk of mortality above 54%. That's huge.
Speaker 1:And we see the same kind of data for cancer and diabetes and heart disease. We consistently see better outcomes when people get their protein from plants than when they get them from animals. We even see this for sarcopenia and frailty in the elderly. Because quality of protein matters, because we need to keep our levels of inflammation down. We need to keep our saturated fat intake down so we can have a good blood flow. We need to have low levels of oxidative stress. We need to have a good, healthy gut microbiome to maintain long-term health. Plant protein actually helps with all of those, animal protein does the exact opposite.
Speaker 3:It does the exact opposite. And, brenda, how do you encourage everyday people who are so deeply impacted in a way where they don't believe it?
Speaker 1:And most people don't believe it, but according to our culture it's so important to our connections to our friends, and we don't want to have to do something that would make us not belong anymore. It's scary.
Speaker 3:I know it is scary and I can remember 20 years ago, that emotional part of this. But I teach a plant-based class and I tell my students it literally takes courage to become plant-based in a society where meat and processed food runs everything. So in surface of optimal health, like you talked about, is that a portal into encouraging people or getting people to open their eyes and so?
Speaker 1:often it takes getting hit over the head with the hammer, like you've got diabetes or you've got heart disease, for people to open up to this being a possibility for them. But one of the things that I say to people is it's not all or nothing, it's just baby steps in the right direction, and so think about starting out with making your breakfast plant-based, and then maybe trying lunch, and then maybe dinner once a week or twice a week, and gradually learning some wonderfully fantastic, tasty recipes. And one of the things that I love to do is to really learn from the cultures that know how to make legumes fabulous, this herbs and spices and the recipes. And people want good food. They don't want while a brown rice with some beans on top that don't have any flavor. They want flavor. They want their food to be delicious, and so one of the best things I think we can do as plant-based eaters is to share amazing food.
Speaker 1:I remember once my husband phoned me up and asked if he could bring a couple of out-of-town guests who were at his office home for supper, and I said, sure, no problem. And so I made a really nice meal. I made these calzonis, which are bread stuffed with different things. I made a lasagna, I made a huge salad, I did a lot, and so they said the meal was just so good, they just loved everything. And the next day at work people started teasing them, saying so you guys ate vegetarian last night, eh. And then both of them my husband said the both of them at the same time said no, I didn't. What are you talking about? And then they started thinking about it and they looked at each other and they went wait a second, do we have any meat? Because they hadn't even realized the food was so good.
Speaker 3:And I think that's true for a lot of people. If they don't know, it doesn't even bother them, they don't even notice. But once you tell them, I've definitely seen that happen and experienced that, so it's really opening yourself up to something different, whether you know it or not.
Speaker 1:Right, it was so interesting. I did a bunch of research in the Marshall Islands and I don't know if you know where the Marshall Islands are, but they're halfway between Hawaii and Australia. Okay, you know, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, there's nothing within 2000 miles in any direction. So they are a very small population with one of the highest rates of diabetes on the planet and one of the highest death rates from diabetes, and I went in there as part of a research team to do a clinical intervention using lifestyle medicine to treat type two diabetes.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that I found so interesting is they didn't have any of the hangups about food that we see in North America, and if we would make tofu, there was nobody saying, oh, that's not man's food. They just loved good food, and I can remember making a bean dish. Many of them had never even tasted beans before and I can remember one lady eating it and saying stuff is as good as ice cream, and so they were just so open. They didn't have the same preconceived notions about food that we do, and I found that so refreshing.
Speaker 3:So why do you think that is Brenda?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it is because we have such a powerful marketing. You know, monster, that it's just to have a really powerful food system where we've trained kids, you know, to believe what we believe in the Marshall Islands. They're so far removed, they're not contaminated in the same way, if you will.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And so we.
Speaker 1:I think that it's our responsibility as thinking human beings to try to shift the discourse, we who recognize that our food choices have consequences both for ourselves and beyond ourselves, and we need to recognize that not only can we change the trajectory of the health of ourselves and our loved ones, but we can change the reality for the 70 billion animals that are slaughtered on this planet for food every year.
Speaker 1:We can change what's going on with our climate and all of the horrendous things that are the result of climate change. Those are things that people don't realize, that our food choices may be this among the most powerful tools we have to impact those things, and most people in their hearts don't really want to hurt animals. Most people think animals are pretty special and they think that animals, I think that they think that they're treated pretty well and they're killed. You know and don't even know what happened, and you just were so far removed from that system that were we've stepped away from the reality of what's actually happening to these wonderful creatures always say there's no such thing as a humane killing.
Speaker 3:It's killing, it's killing, it's. There's no other word for it.
Speaker 1:So that's right. And the reality, again, is that we've increased the line speeds of slaughterhouses so much that experts estimate that at least 10% of pigs are skinned and boiled alive is they're not properly stunned. These are animals that, according to studies UC Berkeley, are more intelligent than dog. You know that. I remember this one researcher saying that pigs never made a mistake at this computer game. She taught them in the computer game. They use their snout to match to things on the computer. She said they never made a mistake because they get a treat if they got it right. She said they couldn't teach dogs that game and she said monkeys, primates, took long to learn it. Then the pigs did. These are really intelligent animals and you know, if we ever did to a dog what we do to pigs, it would be considered, you know, just outrageous. And so I think people we need to recognize these are, even if they weren't intelligent, which they are. I can.
Speaker 1:I got to tell you the story about my son because when he was three years old I thought, you know, I think it's time to tell my son. We were actually driving by mcdonald's and he said mommy, could we stop at mcdonald's for a hampf? I explained to him that the hamburgers at mcdonald's weren't the same as the burgers we make at home, and so I thought it's time to tell him he's three years old, he should know that these come from animals. So I said honey, the hamburgers made at mcdonald's are made from cows. And he looked at me like I had just gone insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he just gave me this look and he said mommy, mommy, people do not eat cows. And then I explained to him that they actually do and he started like the tears started coming and he said but, mommy? He said don't they know that cows are people too? They have eyes. He said they have babies. He said they are people too. And I thought to myself it's so amazing how little kids just they get it they get it and then they live in society and get desensitized but and I have a grandson and I'm vegan.
Speaker 3:His parents aren't. But I'm very honest, I'm very open. He knows that I don't eat animals. I don't say I don't eat meat, I say I don't eat animals so yeah, he's clear and that people are clear, so that as he grows up he will see the truth and on some level I feel if I've had that exposure when I was younger, I could make my own decision even younger. But I'm not regretting the past or anything.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just saying I want to be honest about eating animals yes, that's so good, and we do the same thing with our grandchildren. Now we have I have a son who's a very committed vegan and he was one of the authors on the book, and so he's a very strong environmental advocate. Now my daughter married an omnivore and she's sort of loosened up a bit so she can eat, consumes fish now, a little bit of dairy, and her kids they just let them consume whatever. I mean, I would say 90% of their food is plant-based at least, but there's still some animal products there, and so I do the same as what you do we let them know that we don't consume animals, and they ask questions and we're quite honest and open about why we don't eat animals. So I'm hoping it'll have an impact.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm hoping to and I think it will, because it's such an honest conversation and it gives them a choice that they otherwise wouldn't have. I almost forgot about proteins and athletes. I think that's a big deal. Do athletes believe that they can consume protein from plants or more from animals?
Speaker 1:If you've never seen the game changers, the game changers is for those that are familiar with vegan athletes. There are so many amazing vegan athletes. There's a guy named Scott Yerak. He is one of the most well-known ultra marathon runners in the world and he set a record for the 24-hour run. He ran 6.3 marathons in a day in 24 hours.
Speaker 3:He had more energy. His body wasn't trying to digest all that meat.
Speaker 1:That's right. I actually have another good friend. Her name is Sonia Looney and she won the American Ultra-Injurance Mountain Bike Race. She was the national champion four times. She was world champion once when she became plant-based I think it was 2014 or 15. She was in the top 20 in the world at that time and she was so scared that it would impact her performance negatively. She said within six months she won the world championships. She said her recovery time was so much better she couldn't believe how much more energy she had. I think there's no question that athletes need more protein. They need about 1.2 to 2 grams of protein per kilogram per day, compared to about 0.8 grams for non-athletes or active individuals. Athlete we're talking competitive athlete.
Speaker 3:Competitive athlete. You just mentioned a second ago about the active people who go to the gym and feel they need to get a protein supplement as soon as they finish working out. What do you say to those people?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just don't. I mean, if you get excess protein, guess what happens to it? Your body breaks it down, turns it into fat and stores it. We don't need more protein than what we need. I would say a very active person who's not an athlete but goes to the gym. I think aiming for one gram of protein per kilogram body weight is a really reasonable place to go. It's so easy to achieve that without having your big protein smoothie after every workout. You just don't need to do that. I've actually calculated my own protein intake and I'm at about 1.2 grams of protein per kilogram body weight. I probably eat 20 grams of protein at each meal or so. It adds up pretty quickly and lunch and dinner are very similar. I don't have a problem at all meeting that, and I just don't think very many people do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I always share with people that in 20 years I've never gone to the doctor and they said you don't have enough protein. Never had that experience. No, so it's someone's listening, brenda, and they really want to Start looking at plant-based protein. What's one thing you want to leave the audience with regarding plant-based protein?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what I would say is that two things really. Number one is that the one Demographic that I have seen fall short in protein that are plant-based are seniors, and so I've had a few senior especially senior women who are consuming 35 40 grams of protein a day because they're just not eating very much and they're not getting enough. Their skin gets thin, their hair starts to fall out, they bruise easily, their skin breaks easily. They just don't have as much energy, and I find when I get them up in their protein to a grant 1 to 1.2 grams per kilogram body weight it turns around pretty rapidly. And that's so. That's one demographic that may need to be a little more conscious. So how do we be more conscious about our protein intake? And it's really simple. You want to include a good source of protein at each meal, and if you're having snacks, you might want to think a little bit about having. You know, if you're having an apple, have a little bit of peanut butter with it or something like that, but generally, just having a good protein source at each meal is enough. So what's a good protein source? Well, it's generally, you want to think legume family. So that's our most concentrated source of protein. So it could be having soy milk instead of almond milk at breakfast. It could be sprinkling some nuts and seeds on the breakfast cereal. It could be selecting a high protein grain like a chemo berries or quinoa or something like that at breakfast time on your salad If you have a big salad at lunch, for example, it might be having.
Speaker 1:What I often do is I have a mix of Of a grain and lentils, but I also put some tofu cubes on top. I put some seeds, pumpkin seeds or something like that. My dressing is made of tahini and hemp seeds, so it's a little more protein concentrated Dressing, and then at dinner you want to have some tofu or beans or lentils or something in that family, and that'll generally be plenty. For people Do know that seeds are a more concentrated source of protein than nuts, so pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, even sunflower seeds, will provide a little bit more than if you're eating walnuts or pecans or Tree nuts. So that's another thing.
Speaker 1:But one of the biggest things, especially for children, is If you use a non-dairy milk. There is such a discrepancy in terms of their protein content. So a lot of non-dairy milks have about one gram of protein per cup. A soy milk will have about six to eight grams. So that's six to eight times more protein. And not only that, but the soy milk is much more nutrient dense as well. So you're getting more vitamins and minerals from the soy milk than you are from the dilute almond milk.
Speaker 3:For example, certainly answered the question of where do you get your protein? As a plant-based eater and a person who Always gets that question, I mean no matter what so I am so happy that you're here today sharing this important information with all of us, because it has to be said.
Speaker 1:It has to be said and Diane, it doesn't matter if you're an infant or a child or an adult or a senior. It is absolutely possible to get plenty of protein from plants when you design the diet with care. It doesn't matter if you're an omnivore or a vegan. We all need to design our diet with care. When you think about what people in North America eat around 60% loss of calories I think it's 66% for adolescents but about 60% of calories are from processed or highly processed foods. Another big percentage is from animal products. The percent that people are getting from whole plant foods of their calories is Minuscule and that needs to shift if we're going to hope to improve the health of future generations.
Speaker 1:Almost everyone gets enough protein. Five percent of Americans get enough fiber. We need more fiber, not protein, and we need more antioxidants. We need more phytochemicals. In other words, we need more fruits and vegetables and legumes and whole grains and nuts and seeds. We don't need more meat, we don't need more of those things. And even milk, I mean milk is a very rich source of calcium and vitamin D, but so is fortified soy milk or for and you have to remember, cow's milk is only a source of vitamin D because it's fortified because it's fortified and no animals are harmed in non-dairy milk that's exactly right, and you have to think about how human beings, as a species, defy rationality to think that we, as a species, must consume the milk of another species for our survival.
Speaker 1:It makes absolutely zero sense. Every species was designed to be mammal. Species was designed to Consume the milk of their species, not another species. I mean, moose milk has twice as much calcium as cow's milk. We don't make it an essential food, so I think we just need to recognize that there are other places to get these nutrients that are much kinder and better for the environment, and I always say we need to wake up to that fact because we've all been conditioned from the time we Came to the planet as to what is food.
Speaker 3:So what I'm very excited about there's so many people that are vegan today, that are waking up and Asking themselves what is real food. So people like you who do this kind of work, it's just helping people to make more healthy choices to combat a lot of not only the chronic diseases, but the environment and everything else. That depends on us treating the planet as well as ourselves. So I really want to thank you for taking the time, brenda, to talk to us today.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for inviting me, diana. It was such a pleasure to meet you and a pleasure to be with you today.
Speaker 3:So where can people find your books?
Speaker 1:Well, our books are in major bookstores. On Amazon, the book publishing company is our publisher and they also sell the books directly.
Speaker 3:I will have Brenda's information in the description for this podcast. I want to thank you, brenda, for joining us today and sharing your wealth of knowledge on plant-based protein, and if you guys want to learn more, be sure to check out Brenda's latest book, plant-powered protein. I hope you found this episode Informative and inspiring on your plant-based journey. Again, I'll have all of her information Power protein awesome, awesome, nice looking cover. Thank you so. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're so welcome. Thank you so much for having me with.