The Inner Wise Woman with Tania Elfersy

Welcome to an insightful episode of "Wild + (Finally F**king) Free": The Inner Wise Woman with Tania Elfersy. Tania is an educator, certified transformative coach, author of a new book on perimenopause and menopause, and co-author of an award-winning book on motherhood.

She created The Wiser Woman project to support women as they journey through midlife change. She is passionate about raising awareness about midlife women's health and shining a light on the brilliance of our bodies. She believes our bodies aren't stupid, and they don't become stupid when our estrogen drops either!

Tania shares her personal experience with perimenopause and menopause, initially feeling overwhelmed by symptoms like mood swings and migraines. However, a transformative healing experience led her to recognize her body's innate wisdom. She challenges societal narratives around menopause, promoting self-acceptance and emphasizing menopause as a natural phase of personal growth.

Throughout the conversation, we explore reframing menopause as a positive rite of passage, urging women to trust their bodies and embrace this transformative journey. Tania's insights offer practical guidance and encourage women to approach menopause with a mindset of empowerment and self-discovery.

Find Tania online at https://www.thewiserwoman.com/ and her books at https://www.thewiserwoman.com/books

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Transcript

Kylie  00:02

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another edition of the podcast today I'm with the beautiful Tania Elfersy. How are you? Tania?

Tania  00:20

 I'm fine, although I have a strange voice. So I you know, I wait this wrong.

Kylie  00:27

I think that this is it's the perfect around what we're going to be talking about and the wisdom of how potty because you're just saying, yes. You feel like you should say something about something. But there isn't actually any point. But yes, your voice is going to be cracking. So for those people in the podcast audience that don't know, you're ready, could you give us a little intro to who you are and what you're about in the world?

Tania  00:51

Yes.So I have been in this metaphor, space, perimenopause and menopause space since 2015, when I had a spontaneous healing experience of my symptoms, and, and since then, I've been supporting women through encouraging them to really tap into the existing wisdom in their body, which just because our hormones go in flux, and you know, leads us down to a sensitive time in life, then wisdom never leaves us. And I've really seen that, when we do that, and we really regain trust in our body. Healing just happens, and we move back into a much more peaceful state. And we can move through life with a lot more harmony. And so this has been my passion. Since I realized what happened to me was quite strange. And it could be helpful to others. And I'm about, you know, busting those myths, and, and supporting women at this time. And amen. Really, yeah. Trying to bring a change at this time of change, the

Kylie  02:01

change the change, the change. Now, I want to ask so many questions. But let's start at the very obvious point of what do you mean by spontaneously healed for menopausal symptoms? Because when, as soon as I read spontaneous, I was like, an angel came down from heaven and wrapped her up and she was like, I'm sure that sounds bad. But what do you actually mean by spontaneous healing?

Tania  02:24

Yeah, so at the time, I had been experiencing perimenopause symptoms since about the age of 43. I'm now 54. So and I'm just coming, just coming out of the menopause. Just like in the year when my periods have disappeared, and who knows, you know, might be another one or two. Yeah, yeah. So it's been going on for a while. And it took me a while to understand what was going on. The first few years, I was just like, Oh, God, I feel like I'm falling apart what's going on? I was getting sick a lot. And, and this is really unusual that I have a voice like that. But yeah, I was just it seemed like the kids were giving me lots of stuff. I don't think they were given me lots of stuff. I think, you know, I was just in a, in a currency that I was just feeling low, and I had mood swings. And that wasn't like me and frequent migraines and some hair loss and, and I was just running around acupuncture and herbs and I was always on a more natural path through health and, and I had no idea what was going on literally just felt like I was falling apart, couldn't understand it. And then I heard Dr. Christiane Northrup, actually talk on a webinar and say, lots of women in their 40s have like PMs on steroids. And I was like, That's me. That's, that's exactly how I feel

Kylie  03:48

PMs on steroids. And for Lyme again, then then PMS would be you know, oh,

Tania  03:54

I was having PMS for two weeks. Yeah. Of every month. And I was tracking it. It was like physically and emotionally. There were two weeks of every month where I felt absolutely, you know, quite normal. And then two weeks when I felt very, very rough. Yeah. And, and so that was like, wow, this is so interesting, perimenopause. Who knew? So I started asking all my 40 Something friends. Do you know, do you know we're going through the chain? Nobody knew nobody knew. And I also thought at that time, menopause, I think that's when I'm 51. And I don't know why I thought it would be like, in a car. Yes.

Kylie  04:32

I just I kind of vaguely thought it happened in my 50s. And my periods would stop that was pretty much the only two thoughts that I had. And it was called the change by js that had come before.

Tania  04:43

I guess maybe we would turn to hot flashes or something. Yeah, but I had no idea. So I thought, well, this is really interesting, because I thought I was educated on women's health, but I know nothing about it. So how is that? And of course these days, there's a lot more talk about perimenopause and menopause. And then there was back then. But I think at that time, what had happened is, menopause had been pushed to be this point in time. And, and the population wasn't that educated that actually it takes time. And it can take up to 10 years or more for the change to happen. And if I look back, I have a old copy of the book our bodies ourselves. Yeah, sort of like women's health Bible. Yeah. And they're from like, I think it was 1991, my edition. And in there it talks about menopause as a long time of change, and perimenopause isn't mentioned. And then if you I went through and checked on what happened in, you know, in addition, five years later, and 10 years later, yeah. And it changed and perimenopause, you know, was was put in, and then it became a chapter and then you know, so, but back then, when we're in our 40s, we had no idea. So I thought, well, this is interesting, because it's a framework, okay, I don't feel so crazy. But then I went in and started looking. And all this discussion is about your hormones, your hormones, your hormones. And I thought, Why would my hormones beginning at Rock, because I've had pretty, you know, amazing relationship with my hormones. Actually, I've had three natural pregnancies, three natural births, and it's just like, Well, my body got all that right. And now it's gone stupid. So why would that make sense? So I was like, asking all these questions. And I just was, you know, when I, I was lucky enough, during my birth and postpartum to have this experience of my body is really incredible. I mean, just, you know, I really sat in the miracle of it all and appreciated it. And I, and I couldn't sort of suddenly block that out and say, Oh, well, that was then. But now miracles don't apply. So I was like, looking at, well, what is it? What is it? What is it? And then what was going on at the time was, I had published a self published a book on motherhood, and it, the whole creative process had been amazing, it just float. And then, before then, before becoming a mum, I had left the corporate world. And in the corporate world, I'd been working in marketing and tech companies, etc. And it was just at the time when the whole sort of like internet marketing changed in social media, like when I was in tech, that we didn't use social media, and we barely use blogs or anything. Yeah. I remember those days. Right. So I came with my, you know, my gorgeous book, I worked with a friend, we co co authored it, and, but then I was taking on as the, the edit the publishing project, this was like my little baby coming to the world, coming back into work after having my kids. And, you know, they were all in, you know, nursery school and stuff in school. So I took it on, but I felt, Oh, I don't know anything about how to market this takes. I mean, I used to be top of my game, but I don't know anything is like, I need to ask everyone else, like what to do. So the creative process came from within, but then, like, the business bit, I was like, oh, I need to sell this number of books. And, and I need all this help, because I know nothing about marketing these days. So that was a struggle strange, because I wasn't listening to anything. That was just like, you know, really, you know, working really hard and not feeling like I was getting very far. Yeah. And then my kids were still, you know, reasonably young. So I was juggling both worlds, and not feeling really great in it and feeling like, I was not enough, which so many women had this feeling and for different reasons. So, you know, we were like, Oh, well, that was the only little business and you know, motherhood, but I, and they, you know, could be big reasons why women don't feel enough. And they could say, I've never had, you know, the relationships I you know, I wanted or I made a work, I made a mistake staying in corporate and I should have left corporate or, or I didn't become a mother or an or I did become a mother and I don't want to put on my mother never loved me. You know, that could be all these reasons. And if it comes down to this, I'm not enough. And so when I heard this, no one was, no one else was telling me. I heard it in myself. And I took it seriously. And I believed it. And I felt really bad. And then I would do lots of things to try and feel enough. Right. So yeah, lots of right, yeah. And going to yoga and affirmations and etc, etc. And although I did do them well, or I didn't do them well, but nothing changed. So. So then I felt like even more, really not enough, because I'm trying really

Kylie  09:50

hard to be enough and feel enough and I'm still not enough.

Tania  09:55

So there was a struggle but deep down I think I knew that couldn't be true. Dude, like, why would I not be enough? Like, why? Why would that be true, but it certainly like there was a lot of noise. And then I came across an understanding of our psychological and spiritual experience in life, called the Three Principles of innate health. And I just like heard it. I heard someone talking about I thought, that's interesting. And I bought a book. And I had an insight suddenly, which was, oh, I don't have to take my thinking seriously. Yeah. And in fact, if I don't, life will be easier. And it's so simple. But for me, it was like, Oh, wow, that's such freedom. I didn't know that if a thought came into my head, and it made me feel bad. Yeah, I didn't have to believe it. I just thought, well, I feel really bad. So there's something I need to do. And there's something really serious going on. Yeah. Because, wow, you know, it feels so uncomfortable. I didn't know I could have a different relationship with my thinking. And it didn't matter what thought it was, like, I didn't need to take it seriously. Yeah. So like, realizing I had this choice. Oh, wow. Why didn't anyone tell me this? But it was like, suddenly, something felt like it landed. And I thought, Oh, I think I'm not gonna have PMS anymore. Because it felt like that was, you know, my PMS was about me, you know, taking my thinking seriously about not being enough and believing it. And then I saw Oh, I don't have to believe it. That's an option. And life will be easier if I don't, oh, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna have PMS. Yeah. And within a few days, all my symptoms cleared up. So by then I was having night sweats, and the migraines and the two weeks of PMS, and lots of skin problems, like eczema, you know, and all kinds of other things. And they all just disappeared. And at first I was like, oh, okay, this is interesting. But I thought, you know, suddenly they're gonna come back. But they didn't, they stayed away. And it was just nine months later, actually, again, about school. At my kids school, and, and there was like, you know, we there was this teacher shouldn't be in a classroom. And for some reason, the head teacher was, you know, defending her, and my husband and I were like, Okay, this needs to change. And all the parents were with us to begin with, and then they were all dropping out. And so I had a lot of thinking about all the parents like being too scared to come from the head teacher. And, and so there was a lot of emails and lots of emotion. And my symptoms slowly started coming back. And I was like, Oh, I am a failure. I forgot up against. And then I saw I had another insight. And I was like, oh, default is my joy. My default is Joy. Joy is my default. Yeah. Joy is my default. And and all the symptoms went away again,

Kylie  13:19

feeling your body when you had the thought of joy is my default.

Tania  13:25

Yeah, I just felt like it's just like this relaxation and realization, that just because there is this, these issues playing out, I can be angry in a school meeting, I can write an email, however I want. But I That doesn't mean that I move away from my potential to always tap into my joy. Yes. And so I can have, you know, a moment in a meeting, and then I can return to joy. Because that's my default and all of us are born with that. We all as kids, we come out with curious you know, if as long as we're like, we're not hungry, or we need an you know, nappy change or something like that, then we're just happy and curious and light. And so that is our default, but we've got so used to not being in that state, that we think if it comes along, then that's the exception when actually it's somebody's fault. So we can move out and be in rage or upset or or any feeling like that. It's fine. And the body knows how to bring us back into joy into calm, and there actually is our truth. Yeah.

Kylie  14:39

That's the truth. Everything else is just learned. Conditioning, addiction to drama, whatever, like, you know, getting that hit from being Yeah, yeah, that's why I'm interested to hear what that feels like to you because I don't have the insight that joy is my default. What I We have been living into more and more and more, which is a big shift for me coming from an environment as, as a kid living in chaos and believing that chaos was my birthright. Pretty much like that really was what I used to think. And over the last couple of years, and this has been a gift of perimenopause for me of, because when I had no more in the tank to actually be everything for everybody, or try to be everything for everybody, which was ridiculous anyway, I could so clearly see that it was actually me playing out like that hero, and they're getting the dopamine hit from being the fixer and the caretaker and whatever. And my I had this awareness of my default being, it just actually feels, I've got it on my bedside table at the moment, it's like peaceful, quiet, calm. So it's not so much joy. And that's where I'm at, at the moment, I don't know whether that will shift. But even that awareness of when I hear my thinking, and my, you know, very well conditioned, I always talk about the tracks in my head that have learned chaos as a kid are like those yellow slides that at McDonald's, it's like you can't see it without gotten down, like very irresistible and well worn. But I'm getting much better and much better and much better. Like, I feel like every day I'm getting better at standing there and going, Ah, I can see that I'm about to step on the irresistible yellow slide of going and fixing something or, you know, stepping into the staying angry after the fact and getting all that emotional, blahdy blahdy, blah, but just realize it's so much frickin nicer to live and simpler and more spacious, and also give space for people to have their own responsibility for their own life experience. And, you know, all of those things. So yeah, I wonder if everyone has a different sort of sense of what there. I do think that karma and peace and joy, our birth rights in terms of or our nature is what I want to say, is their nature. And yes, other stuff can murky up the windscreen a bit sometimes. But yeah, the more awareness you have, the better I think. Yeah. Interesting that you notice a difference in symptoms when you when you were tempted to kind of be away from that central default?

Tania  17:41

Yeah, yeah. And what you were just sharing there reminds me of a quote from someone called Jack pranskey, who says, you know, we're all peace, love and understanding. And we all have the ability to convince ourselves that we're not, yes, yeah, that's not an exact quote, but more or less what he says. And it's like, and that's, that's our freewill. But we, we operate within that freewill without consciousness. So often, just because it's not part of our culture, to tell us, Oh, here's your default. Like, there's that peace, love and joy. You know, there's

Kylie  18:17

money and having that default, like, there's no commercial success and telling people that you're perfectly fine the way you are. A must teach them that they're broken, and there's something needs fixing and whatever, like, you know, fill in the blank there.

Tania  18:31

Yeah, yeah. And you know, and so in our culture, I'm sure it's different in other cultures, but in our culture, there is like, the default then becomes, oh, you can be stressed, and you can be angry, and you can be anxious. And you begin to believe that that is your default, when actually no, we were all born into that joyful, curious restful light state. And then as we got older, and we started taking our thinking seriously about things that began to shift, so you know, a kid who tries to walk and falls over, doesn't then say, that's really not trying for the rest of the day. Because I'm such a failure. Yeah. Or, you know, they try and draw a house and it turns out like an elephant, you know, and they don't say, That's it. I'm never gonna draw again, because I am failure, right? No, kids don't do that. They just take everything lightly. We grew up with the idea of who was supposed to be, what things are supposed to look like, and that stress is normal. And

Kylie  19:35

it's normal. Yeah. And we can hang out in

Tania  19:39

all of those emotions. That's our human experience. But when we come into sort of a higher state of consciousness, we can be aware that there's always an option to fall back to our default and more joyful and more peaceful default. And the body knows how to do that automatically. It's like ball underwater. The If it takes a lot of time, you know, pressure to put to keep the ball underwater, let your hands go, it bounces back to the surface. And that's exactly the way our psychological immune system if you like works, we let it go, and it will come back because it wants to and this what I've really seen about the body that it cannot act from a place that isn't love, right, every symptom that we experienced, is either an attempt to overcome some kind of chaos that we in our innocence has created. So, for example, let's take it to a very different physical level, we've eaten something that's not good for us. The body like goes into this enormous Yeah. Physical like emotion to get that out of the body. And we don't think at that time. Oh, this is my body being stupid is malfunctioning. No, we understand, okay, I had something that needs to come out. Let's let it come out. And it's done. But for some reason, we think, Oh, well, those symptoms could be intelligent. But the symptoms I experienced at midlife, huh? That's malfunction, crazy. It's all intelligent, intelligent, and it's an attempt, you know, what I've seen in my life and work with clients. It's an attempt to wake us up so often. And to bring us back to a path of good health. It's not about malfunction, it's not about that we're somehow broken, it's not about their hormones suddenly become stupid. It's none of that. But why would that make any sense? It's all about the body acting from love, trying to bring us back into balance. And it expresses that love in many different ways, depending on it seems our sensitivities. For example, not every woman has severe eczema, I've always had sensitive skin. So that's where it came out for me, you know, like, literally, you know, I would go to people's houses or restaurants. And it was like, I was using acid to wash my hands. I had this inside. Believe me, the bathroom soaps in the world did not change. Yeah, but I no longer had that reaction to it. Because I had removed that chaos, that internal chaos that I had innocently created through stress. And suddenly my body can just, you know, get get along with, you know, whatever's out there. And it meets a soap, that's not so great. It knows how to detox it. So, you know, that's like a really physical symptom. How did that work? But that's just the power of what's going on. And the creative. We're creative partners in our health, right? And we can use that creative freewill for

Kylie  22:42

good Oh.

Tania  22:45

Get us on the train, have you no disruption and chaos and innocently because I don't believe anyone wants to suffer. Or we can see that we have a choice. And even if we go on the train to fear and anxiety, we can say, Oh, I know. I do have the option at any time to come off and say, Yes, that's my thinking. And it's not true. And where is where is the peace? Where's the light? Because there's my truth. Yeah, what

Kylie  23:14

feels? What feels Yeah, as you're talking about the so but I, what is coming to my mind is

Tania  23:26

actually, it's kind of similar to what I was reading the work of faith,

Kylie  23:31

I can never remember her last name. She's a psychologist, she works with somatic healing. But she basically her point of view is all of the things that we are seeing or noticing much more of like irritable bowel and skin issues, and by pretty much anything, but you know, high anxiety states, etc. She's just like, part of the problem is we believing we have a problem. So then you get inside of the, it's like, was the problem that my skin reacted to the soap or was a problem that my skin reacted to the soap. And then I had a story about what that meant. And the drama that I added to it, there was actually a prop. Because one is just a reaction, but then the story is kind of like coloring what energy you've feel into it with or something. That is, yeah, really cool. I've got someone in my family that's got, like, really, really bad arthritis, and I have grown up with this person continually saying to me, you're going to end up with arthritis. And my my answer to that has always been that's not my story. And it's funny how, with some things I absolutely 100% I'm just like, that's just not my story. It's not gonna happen to me. That's not how I am choosing to have this experience. But then other things. Yeah, you kind of go down the rabbit hole of I think perimenopause, though too.

Tania  24:57

It's almost the same as the soap

Kylie  25:01

example. Let me just, I should say to everybody, I've had very little sleep. So if I'm not making much sense, please bear with me. But where I was going with that is, is it the symptom that we're experiencing? Or is it the fact that a lot of us is still trying to be at the, you know, the spring time of our lives, or the summer of our lives where we've got endless energy, and we're able to juggle really easily and stress resilience is a given and whatever? And so is it the symptom itself that is causing the pain? Or is it the fact that we are not allowing for change and being in different cycles and seasons, and just going with it, rather than saying, that's actually a problem? Like, that's something I have to fix? Or I have to like that kind of I heard someone say, the other day, my body's betraying me, and I was like, Whoa, be really careful. What you speak into reality, because yeah, I don't want to be saying that. Would you agree with that? That's something

Tania  26:01

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a bit of both what you said, because there is, it seems to me that if we look at the whole menopausal transition as a rite of passage, and that's,

Tania  26:17

that was odd,

Tania  26:19

is happening sometimes. If we understand it as a rite of passage, the menopausal transition, then it's not designed to be necessarily a walk in the park, right? Because we're supposed to change. Yes. So we go through, it seems like this is, as opposed to the dominant narrative, which will say your hormones are going crazy. And it's, it seems that there's this beautiful and brilliant dance of the hormones to bring us into a sensitive time. And it's not unlike when a woman is pregnant, and also postpartum, that the body like moves into a different level of sensitivity for a good purpose. So it's really obvious when we're pregnant, that if you're working too hard, and to stress and you're not eating, well, the products can really quickly Yes, to protect you and the baby. And doctors know this. So they won't say to a woman, oh, you've got all these symptoms? What that must be your crazy hormones. Yes. You know, are you working too hard? How are you eating you taking vitamins or whatever. And they'll say, you know, he's had two weeks off of work. So we see that for a pregnant woman. But when it comes to menopause, we were like, in the thick of life, yes, so many things going on, we have no understanding of this spiritual time of change, that we're supposed to go through this rite of passage, this graduation to becoming an elder, this is a time of transformation. So you know, if we're off balance in any way, and for so many women, you know, as I see it, it's the emotional side that we're so caught up in the I'm not enough and other things. But it also could be, you know, you're you don't have a clean diet, or you're not moving. But I think if the emotional side is in, its, you know, imbalance, then you'll sort of like tune into your intuition more about, oh, yeah, this would be good for me, you know, I can move a bit, I can eat like a bit more fruit veggies, or whatever. So there's, there's this purpose that is so often ignored about this beautiful time, it really is. And women I know, for women, if, if they're experiencing symptoms, like I've been there, I know what it is. And I think obviously, your symptoms are a gift, like, Oh, they're not get that awful. So I know that. And so here's the other piece, right? Not only is this part of the design to wake us up, but we can have a different experience of symptoms. So for example, after I had that, you know, I talked about being at school, and then having symptoms and then and then then going away. So then there was another time that was that I remember of there was some online bullying, around my work, whatever. And so I was having a certain experience of it, and feeling very offended that I had been censored, actually. And, and, and so I started having night sweats. Now, by that stage, I knew what that meant. It meant that I was off balance, it meant that I was having some like stormy thinking going on. And there was nothing I needed to do. So instead of like, lying in bed at 3am, you know, sweating, thinking, this is terrible. Oh, I teach the story. Yeah, what's going on? You know, and, and how am I going to cope tomorrow? I don't know. It was just like, oh, this is so interesting. And so, you know, I still have a lot of thinking going on about what's going on with this online stuff. And I was like, Okay, I'll just, you know, I'm just waiting for a new insight to come up around what to do, and it took a few days and then I was like Oh, it's really clear. I'm just gonna write an email and I'm gonna and I'm gonna let it go. And that was it. Night sweats finished. Yeah. So, you know, even, you know, the symptoms are intelligent. And even when they come, we can have a variety of experiences of them. And if we learn to trust our body, and leave that betrayal story, that crazy hormone story to the side, this journey becomes easier. And we have new expectations, and we have new love and respect for our body. And that transforms our journey through midlife change. And, and it's, and we were supposed to learn this stuff. This is why I really truly believe, you know, it's, it's like in our 20s and 30s. Our divine system allows us to muck around and see what we learn, right. And then it comes to midlife. And it's like, Oh, you want to age well, and happiness and joy in good health. Like, you need to learn something about health now. And some people make. So many of us it happens at this time. And it's brilliant. Wow. And then when we come through this trend, you know, this time of transition, and we move towards that elder status, we're actually going to have something to contribute to the world, because we're going to be wiser, because we've changed. So this whole idea of no change, don't change. We don't want to change. No, we do need to change, just like when we were teenagers, we don't want to be stuck in our childhood, you know, maturity of being a 10 year old, you know, graduate and understand what we love and our passions and our responsibilities in our life. You know, take it into our hands. And the same thing is going on at midlife. It's it's, it's not a malfunction. It's a brilliant design. Yeah,

Kylie  31:53

I so agree. We were just talking before we started recording about the beautiful Claudia Davidson, who was on the week before this episode will come out. And I really loved how what she was saying she was just she was saying the same thing as what we're saying here. Slightly different language. But her thing is, you know, the narrative of the journey. So we can say this is like gloom and doom. And it's horrible, because I'm sweaty, and I'm this and I'm that or whatever. And like I woke up at three o'clock last night, and I was like I did, I was tempted by the yellow slippery slide that's like, Oh my God, I've got such a big data mer. And instead, I was like, to what I'm going to do, I'm gonna get up and make myself a cup of cinnamon tea. And I'm going to very quietly move into my office, put my reading light on and just color in for a couple of hours. Oh, my God, I was so in need of time by myself, yes, maybe not in the middle of the night would have been nice. But that is actually what I needed. Rather than the sleeping time it was just to be awake. But quiet. Because I've had a lot of outward stuff happening lots of balls in the air. And I hadn't really connected the dots around that until waking up. And I'm like, Ah, of course I haven't been. I haven't been nourishing, I have a very high need for solo time just to just be like not to not to be doing anything in particular just to be in my own space, particularly quiet. And I've got these awesome earplugs that are amazing, like completely noise cancelling. So put them in and I'm just like, it's like I'm underwater. I love that feeling. And I was like, ah, that is so much better. So much better than I could have been, which would have been even this time last year waking up at three o'clock going, oh my god, go back to sleep, right. And they're just adding so much more pain and suffering to myself for no reason. Because I was still not going to be able to get back to sleep, you know, like it was the same end result. But I would have poured on the drama and the horror about not sleeping. So I do love to sleep. Yeah, and I'm just like, there's a purpose to that. And if we frame it, and as you're saying about the pregnancy and postpartum, I feel the same about puberty. Like we don't expect our kids to go through puberty without having space to process and you know, have a chance to kind of, you know, transition to a different a different phase of themselves and do this developmental thing, which is really messy when it's happening at the time, potentially. But it is all for it's the grand plan, like you know, and I don't think that we have to argue about it. And that's why I'm so irritated at the moment by and I think maybe I need to just remove myself from the menopause space for a little bit. But the medicalized like the hormone deficiency approach to menopause, and like, how is your body deficient when it is doing what is actually designed to do or don't understand that like it doesn't Got it together, at least in my view of the universe. But I also think that that is setting up more of the narrative, like you were saying, we don't want to be changing. And it's like, so what we're going to try and stay exactly the same as what we are in our 40s and early 50s, for the rest of our lives. So who wants to be like, where's the evolution or the next step, or whatever to step into? And, yeah, I just think it kind of goes hand in hand. It's like, if you're saying, I'm hormone deficient, you're almost saying, aging is a problem. And you know, the cycle of nature is a problem. And it's like, well, do we say to nature don't have a spring after winter? Like, I just don't, I don't get it. Don't get it, and it irritates me, which probably just means I need to just be a little bit more. What's that word discerning with where I'm putting my attention?

Tania  35:53

Yeah, I mean, when you see that, it's all actually a business plan. You know, it's not like, you know, we can have a different experience, but we can Well, it's their business plan. It's not mine. But so that that's what's playing out. It's a business plan. And I often, you know, when people come and say, Oh, it's the, you know, hormone deficiency disease, etc, etc. And why is that? Exactly? You know, is there a bug in our design? Is that what you're suggesting? And the only answer that's ever given is once we never used to live beyond menopause, and that's nonsense, because we've always, as far as we can see, through nurture, live beyond menopause. And the mistake that's made is with average life expectancy data, that they don't take into account, you know, yes. 16th century England, the average life expectancy was under 40. That isn't because women were dropping off at that age, you know? No, it is because there was incredibly high infant and child mortality, that brought down the average life expectancy, the age, that of life expectancy. But once you moved into adulthood, and you moved past that very sensitive, infant and child time, yes, then you had a good chance of living decades beyond menopause. And that's what we see in hunter gatherer societies today. So, but you still have these doctors making this claim that Oh, yes, you know, Victorian times, we never lived beyond menopause. Well, if they're not getting that, right, I encourage women to say, Well, what else aren't they getting? Right? Yeah. Because what is the reason that our body that does such a, you know, isn't such an abundance of miracles? Right, right there right now that we don't have to manage, I do not manage my digestion, I do not manage, you know, the, the water in my eyes to keep it moist. I do not manage like whatever's going on. I do not manage it. I did not manage my heart, my lungs. So why do I think I need to go in and manage my endocrine system and tell it what hormones it needs? And when, unless I bind to this idea that by? But you know, birth? I am? You know, I'm malformed. I'm designed to malfunction. Yeah, and I don't buy into that. And it's because that's not my experience with my body whatsoever. And, and that twist, you know, the whole business plan is to get women to, to not have the trust in their body to not believe that they can self heal, to not believe that their body knows exactly what they need, because that sells products. You know, we live, when does fear and health ever go together? Never, always worsens outcomes. And around perimenopause and menopause, it's exactly the same. You tell women to fear this time. And I've heard now women in their 30s Now fearing menopause, it's like, wow, like, can you imagine if we that's what we told girls who were 10 Oh, you're gonna get this period, and it's going to be all fun. You're going to be bleeding, complete hell of dancing have a terrible experience.

Kylie  38:58

What exactly, but don't you think we're almost doing that anyway? Because, like, my generation was, certainly as soon as you had any issues with menstrual cycle at all, you went on the pill. So even at 1516, we are giving a message to girls to say your body doesn't know what it's doing. You know, there's something that we need to do to intervene, because your body hasn't got this sorted somehow. And so I almost wonder whether we've just been I shouldn't say we, but and a lot of people who've accepted Yes, have have bought into the like the, you know, contraceptive pill is that amazing and, you know, talk about birth rates. It's like, let's go back to the beginning of why the pill was so you know, like a wish. Let's bring the patriarchy and and blah, blah, blah, anyway. But I just think that if we, if we were giving people in the 80s and 90s the message that they couldn't trust their body and that they should take sugar pills or or not sexual appeals are never bullied for years and years and years, I had friends that like literally didn't have periods for years, because it was easier. And I'm like, but it's not how we're meant to be, because nature knows what it's doing. And I think like, I always come back to when I when I used to coach, and we I was ever working around that I'm not good enough or I'm not loved. I'm not deserving whatever. I'm like, I'm a biologist by training, do you know how many amazing intricate processes are happening right now. So the very fact that you actually got here is a miracle in itself. So you can't argue any point of view about yourself and how flawed you are, but I will actually agree with it. Because it's miraculous. Like, if you look into all the biological processes, and that's, that's really the foundation of what you're saying. And I'm interested when you talking with women about the wisdom of their bodies, and and you have the kind of response of but of the bet it's horrible, and it's hard and whatever, how do you approach that with people? Because I feel like, um, yeah, I feel like when we are out of balance away from our truth, like, I've certainly had a very tricky time in the last 12 months. And it's certainly provided me with lots of ways to look at things that I'm doing that are not sustainable, or not healthy or not, whatever. So there's been a lot of learning in it. But I think that some of the people that are listening will be listening and going, Oh, it's alright, for you to talk like that, whatever. What's your approach to that when someone says, but it's

Tania  41:49

so hard? Right? Right, I appreciate that. It's so hard, and every woman will do what she feels she needs to do, you know, in the moment to reduce her experience of suffering. And, you know, she needs to tap into her guidance to see what that is. And, you know, that may involve, you know, medication or not, or herbs, or whatever it is, she'll do that. And I say that there's a place for that, too, if we're suffering so much, and you know, the mind is moving at that speed of like, this is terrible, this is terrible. Like, if there's something that can turn down the volume a little bit, then that can be really useful, because then we can just rest a bit more in silence, and wonder, right wonder about what's going on? And then the question I love to ask is, well, what does your body want you to know. So it's a process of coming back into trust in the body, it's a process of leaving those myths and those stories about the body behind. And as we see more about why it doesn't make sense that the body would betray us, or work in a sort of malfunctioning way, then we can rest more in a sort of relaxed state, and things start to come to mind. Right. So like, it's not me to tell any woman what she needs to do. But it's, I create an environment that helps her listen and listen. And allow her intuition to guide her. And it's, it's almost like, our intuition, you know, what I call the wise the woman is bumbling to the surface, on purpose. Because if we've lived lives that are out of balance, if there are passions that we know, light us up, but we've put them on the back burner, you know, since we were 14, or whatever it is, right? Like, our body wants us the divine energy in our body wants us to reconnect with that again, and to perhaps look at our relationships that aren't, you know, nourishing, and that doesn't mean blow up the relationship. It might just mean like, adjustments need to be made, because we deserve to live a more, you know, a gentler life, then, then many of us are living, but we think, Oh no, this is just this is just stress. This is just what's now there are many more opportunities that we can, you know, just through shifting consciousness, allow to appear. And we'll say, oh, yeah, you know, what, maybe once a week, I will do painting, you know, and maybe that becomes twice a week or maybe, you know, and when we start feeling things, again, that we've just put off, and like I said, the intelligence of the body wants us to connect that way. Why? Because it's healthy. The body is always trying to bring us back to a path of better health. That's what it's trying to do. So, you know, I can't say you know, for some women, it will be you know, start walking in the forest. Mm. Is that a prescription for all women? No. But for some women, it might be for some women, it might be painting for some women, it might be singing for someone, you know, but everyone needs to get more in touch with this intuition that's bubbling to the surface. And that will guide us. And again, it comes from trusting that it's there. Yeah. And moving away from that story of malfunction, coming back into the intelligence within. And sorry, yeah,

Kylie  45:28

sorry, what I was going to something that came to me really clearly the other day when I was I was just sitting with my legs up the wall. And I had my eyes closed. And I was like, ah, yeah, that's another thing that that you know, WISEWOMAN has been calling me to look at is some uncomfortable truths. So truths that I've always known if I'm honest, but I've never, I've never wanted to delve into them. So there's been a sense there for at least a decade about some of the things that I'm thinking about, but I feel like perimenopause has forced, it's like, they won't be ignored anymore. Like the voice has always been there. But the voice is getting more and more crystal clear. And more and more Sure. And I feel like sometimes, like I'm going through a period where I've got more, definitely more warps in my body, I wouldn't say like, drenched in sweat or anything, but just that warmth. And I'm like, oh, okay, about 12 months ago, is really in the thick of that. And it was really that I got the sense that it was like trial by fire, like you're transforming. And fire is one of the most transformative ways of doing this. And literally, you're being called to burn away some of the things that you've allowed through to the keeper, like, you know, unbalanced relationships or whatever, where I've settled for less than what I know that I should, but I've never, I've never, you know, I've never set the boundary for myself, or I've never chosen myself, actually, when you were talking before something that also is coming to my mind is that the self rejection? You know, when you're saying not good enough, not good enough. And then we, if we do get exposed to a story of oh, your body is somehow deficient. It's almost like then we're rejecting ourselves all over again. So it's like, okay, maybe whamming. Yeah, that's, that's calling your attention. And I think too, like, I'd certainly been definitely the case for me, and for a lot of the people that I talk to, is that I always say less tolerance for bullshit, but it's just being clear about what is and isn't for you. Which I think

Tania  47:54

is such a gift. Such a

Kylie  47:57

gift. Like, I don't know, yeah, no more. Yeah. Estrogen making me accommodate, pretty much. I'm like, No, I won't be available for that. No, I won't be giving you an excuse why? I'll just be saying no. Which I think, yeah, so much easier and simpler. Like you were saying before? Yeah.

Tania  48:16

It's part of the design, I think, you know, it's part of the brilliant design. And it's an, you know, when we look at what happens to women in motherhood, right, that transition from I look after myself to, oh, my goodness, there's a subtle being that I need to put first. So I can you imagine like, the unbelievable, you know, change that needs to go on in a person's psyche to be able to do that when you know, there's a healthy attachment to the baby. And then we're moving on to a new state, and I hear from so many women, about, I just don't give a BLEEP you know, any more about what people think about me? Yeah, you know, people expect to me etc, etc, that is definitely part of the design that coming into yourself. And why? Because it's healthy. Because if we live with those stresses all the time of, oh, I just need to, you know, be a little less than myself, or just compromise or, you know, not speak my voice or not, you know, do what I'm passionate about, then, you know, it's living with stress, just, you know, put in a box inside. And the body doesn't want us to live that way because it's not healthy. So it's gonna come to the surface. And then there's this thing which is made up called the midlife crisis, right, which is a cultural major, totally, but it's the story. It's just a misunderstanding of these uncomfortable feelings that we can experience at midlife, which is the which is the brilliance coming forward. You know, it's intuition coming forward. It's the wise woman coming forward, but because we don't have the level of understanding to see what's going on, then we think, Oh, this feels terrible. Boom. I'm gonna get out. Yeah, I'm gonna just like explode it all. But no, it's like, this is, you know, something needs to shift, but it doesn't need to be explosive. Yeah, if we understand again that our default is this joy, love peace, we can operate from there. And we can say, Wow, what would be loving? For me? What would be loving for me? Wow, that's revolutionary often right what a question, right? And what would be from a point like if I'm feeling love and staying within this feeling of love? What then what feels true? Because that's where truth lies within the love. Not within the drama. Yeah, we can play in the drama. Yeah, like I said, you know that's available to us. But the love is where the truth lies. Yeah. And it's so simple when we see it. And when we work from there, like things just fall into place in amazing ways.

Kylie  51:07

And there's no striving and I love what you're saying. Because it reminds me of something that I used to ask myself when I was first kind of becoming aware of this like heroes cake thing that I used to do, I'd be like, am I giving from a sense of generosity from like resources that I have to spend and invest like this because I choose to or am I giving because I believe it's a role that I have to play and I'm obligated to play it. So both are giving two very different energies and feel completely different. And I cannot say how much the sense of being able to give through generosity has felt. And I really only feel like I have really set from that energy in the last 12 months, around certain relationships in my life. Not with everyone, obviously, but around certain relationships, not feeling like I have to say, have to say yes, but actually choosing and it's so lovely to reform a relationship with yourself where you know, that you will actually filter the question through. Like, I always say, like, I feel like I have a lot less resources at the moment in terms of, I do have not, I don't have never ending energy, at least that's what I feel like at the moment. Whereas in my 20s, and my 30s I could go on forever in a day and, you know, use them and just sleep lab or do 24 hour shifts, and just keep bopping along and whatever, because I got a lot of I don't know, I just enjoyed it. But now I'm like, No, you want me after five in the afternoon? No, it's not gonna happen. But it's, it's, it feels quite miraculous to find a sense of that. It's not even putting yourself first it's feeling into the resources that you have at your disposal, and then being really reverent with them, rather than just throwing them around. Like, you know, I've got everything in the tank, because I don't and I think that that's the other gift as well. Yeah. And that the trial by fire and the wise woman. And as we're talking a lot of the things we're talking about, like I really love the traditional Chinese medicine way of looking at things and particularly from a five elements lens. And the feeling that they have or the beliefs of traditional Chinese medicine have is a lot around that. The perimenopause transition is like the autumn time and that is when you know the winds come and the leaves that are not meant to be there for the next season get blown to the ground. And it's about inward facing and it's about clarity, those beautiful clear autumn skies, that everything is very obvious. And I kind of yeah, there's a there's a joy in that because you just know, like you're saying like the wheel is turning. And I kind of get a bit excited sometimes when I feel like Oh, I feel like there's something else shifting. Like I definitely feel like my new thing at the moment is hair loss. I'm like shedding hair like I don't know what it's like me and the dogs with a vacuum every day. But I do feel like there's another quickening happening in myself. Where am I? Oh, I thought that I was I had sort of answered the call of a lot of things internally, but they feels like there's another. We're in the spiral again. Let's see what this one calls us to do. But it's cool. I love the feeling of Yeah, it being an evolution. And I do really feel like if we have a positive frame of reference that yes, no doubt sometimes, particularly if you've got, you know, significant symptoms. They are tricky, but they do have a message and there is a purpose and if the purpose is a portal of rebirth, then I'm in for it. But if you tell me I just have to live with night sweats. I'm like why? Right, but I'm down for the rebirth. So, yeah, it's much nicer way of feeling into it, I think.

Tania  55:05

Yeah. And I think, you know, the, the fact that we don't have many role models that we can, we can look to in the post menopausal, you know, who are living their best life in the postmenopausal years. There are plenty of women out there, but they're just not, you know, offered to us through our normal, you know, society. But, you know, I'm in touch with postmenopausal women who are living their best lives, not because they're medicated. But because they've gone through this rite of passage. They are now connected to their passions, they've got more time, they've got more energy, and they've gone through that hormonal fluctuation, which requires us to rest more requires us to go more inside, but now they're blossoming again. Yeah, they've moved through it. Exactly. And so if we heard more about that, as we move through this transition, we will be excited, we'd have something to look forward to. But instead, all we hear is that, oh, it's downhill from now on, and you're gonna, you know, diseases appear to be inevitable, and it's, no, it's not. If you live a life out of balance, for longer, you're more likely to get a disease like that all that's the max of it, right? But it's like, if you live a healthy life, your body is designed to keep on supporting you live a healthy life. Yep. If you fall off the path, your body will speak to you. It's gonna speak to you, it's louder voices. It sends you emotions, and it sends you symptoms. And then we have the freewill to interpret them, you know, but if we can step into that, wow, what is my what does my body want me to know? What is this brilliance coming?

Kylie  56:53

I really love that question it. You want me to know? Yeah. And so

Tania  56:59

women normally, like they there's an answer that normally comes through and then they don't want to know. Because like, no, surely it's not that. But it's just like listening. And the wisdom comes in quietly. It doesn't come in like the marching band. It's not like, oh, yeah, you should do Master. No, that's, you know, that's the story. It's okay, we can hang out there. But if we want wisdom, it's the quiet, calm voice that we can hear. And, like, we know, when we're when we're hearing that. And it's so beautiful, because it's it's the guidance system. It's divinity in your pocket. It's always with you. You know, we just need to get quiet, and we can start hearing it more

Kylie  57:40

divinity in your pocket like that. I really liked that. All right, cool. I have enjoyed this chat immensely. Thank you. Thank you for your grace tenure. And I have booked this three times. And we got it there time. Lucky. Yeah. Could you please tell everybody where we can find you and your books and your work in the world, please?

Tania  58:03

Thank you. So the wiser, woman.com. And I just like to say, that's not me that's in every one of us. And you know, she's waiting to be found. So it's the wiser, woman.com and you can find me on Facebook and on Twitter. And my book, The wise A Woman's Guide to perimenopause and menopause is available. Well, we

Kylie  58:26

will link everything in the show notes anyway. So we will make sure that people can easily click and find. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been a beautiful, beautiful way to spend an afternoon chatting to you and I'm sure our audience will very much enjoy and thank you for being part of yes, a different narrative around menopause. That does not say that we are in any state deficient. But actually there's some magic in process

Kylie  58:54

upgrading, recalibrating. or No to being more aligned with it. You know, it was

Tania  59:01

Yeah, yeah. And it's and it's like, it's really, when we can lean into the brilliance of it all. We have an amazing journey. So yeah, it's all all for the best.

Kylie  59:16

Thank you so much. Bye bye.