The P.I.E.S. Approach to Perimenopause with Sally Bartlett

Welcome to an insightful episode of "Wild + (Finally F**king) Free": The P.I.E.S. Approach to Perimenopause with Sally Bartlett. Sally Bartlett is a speaker, workplace menopause educator, behaviour change & mental health coach,  and an award-winning author. She's here to walk beside you and empower you to discover who this new woman is, and what works for you in this exciting new chapter of life.

Sally chronicled her own ageing journey because she has always known that someday she would share it with other women so that they too could cultivate their own plan to embrace their change and flourish, just like she has.

In this enlightening and empowering show, Sally shares her own personal journey of aging and discovery, offering invaluable insights and practical strategies to help women navigate this exciting yet often challenging chapter of life. With warmth and wisdom, Sally walks beside her audience, empowering them to embrace the changes happening within themselves and discover the keys to flourishing in this new phase.

Through candid conversations, expert interviews, and evidence-based advice, Sally equips her listeners with the tools they need to cultivate their own customized plan for embracing perimenopause with grace and confidence. Whether you're experiencing hormonal fluctuations, mood swings, or simply seeking guidance on how to thrive during this transition, Sally Bartlett is here to support you every step of the way.

Find Sally online at https://www.sallybartlett.com

or dive into her Meno Feelings Quiz here https://bit.ly/MenoFeelingsQuiz

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Transcript

Kylie: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I have the beautiful Sally Bartlett with me today. Hello, Sally. How are you? Hello, Kylie. How are you? I'm so well, I'm very tired, but we'll get to that before we get well, no, actually, maybe we will start with that because it actually introduces your beautiful book and some of the work you do in the world.

So I was just explaining to you before we started recording that I have, I love my sleep. Went through a period last year where my sleep went out the window with [00:01:00] perimenopause and with a lot of different lifestyle and layers of support in place I've gotten back to decent sleep and last night I went to bed at 10 30 no 10 And I woke up at 12 30 and I stayed awake until 5 a.m. This morning The blessing is that I actually find that I'm quite creative in the middle of the night. So that's one weird thing, but I have been, I've had your book, which is called damn. What this first book, or is it second that I've got first. Yeah. It's called dammit. It is menopause meditations for women to achieve clarity and confidence beyond their wildest dreams.

I am loving on this book so hard. I've had it for about six weeks now. And what I love about it is that you have included in it, Peace. I call them self care snacks or journaling prompts or whatever. And they're just little things. And so every night when I go to bed, I pick a couple and I just randomly pick.

And today I did the same thing. Cause I was like, I can't wait to speak to Sally. Cause I feel like I know you [00:02:00] and guess which one I picked the one about being. Oh, so tired. And I was like, this is the magic of Sally Bartlett. So welcome welcome. 

Sally: That's exactly how I intended it. You could just pick it up anywhere and just trust the universe that it was going to be fitting 

Kylie: for you today.

I love it. I love it. Now that I've told the story, please tell everybody about you and the work that you do in the world. And then I want to start at the very beginning, but 

Sally: introduce me. All right. All right. I'm so happy to be here, Kylie, and get to talk to you. I am Sally Bartlett. I am a health coach slash personal fitness trainer for decades, a menopause educator.

And author of the award winning book, dammit. It is menopause meditations for women to achieve clarity and confidence beyond their wildest dreams. Yes. So that's who I am. 

Kylie: Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. I love your entire approach to this. And I love the fact that. I'm going to make [00:03:00] this podcast all about me, but there's so many things that you write about.

Like when you actually guess for those in the community guests, fill out a few questions when they book in and Sally and I've been talking backwards and forwards. It's taken us quite a while to get a date. Cause then I wasn't recording over Christmas, whatever. And so I hadn't read your questions for quite a long time.

And, but I did, I read. Growing up in a family where emotional regulation dysfunction was the norm resulted in my using food and alcohol as coping tools. And I was just like, parallel lives, my friend. Can we start there? Because I really would love I love getting to know why people do the work they do in the world, but I feel like when you grow up in a family like that, you can form some protective mechanisms, which are coping mechanisms, but aren't healthy ones.

So please tell us a little bit more about what that was like for [00:04:00] you. 

Sally: That resulted in a lot of faulty problem solving bad relationships. You think of it as that's going to result in overweight and yes, it can. When you have a disjointed or a strange relationship with food and alcohol and, but it, people focus on the weight always, but it's also was about, I wasn't able to form good relationships both with men and with just friends and employers and.

So that was one of the first things that stood out to me. And I thought, and I didn't really know what I wanted to major in because all I thought about was dieting back in those days. And I thought I do have to come up with a major here of study. And I thought I need to figure out why I'm doing the things, the weird behaviors I'm doing around food.

And so I majored in psychology. And from there, I started to read about evidence based journaling and [00:05:00] that it had, this was back in the eighties and it was just starting. And back then the whole expressive writing thing, and they were doing studies on how this can journaling can influence.

Your health, like your blood pressure and things like that in a positive way. And that just fascinated me because I had always, kept a diary when I was a younger girl. And so I thought, wow, this can really be a powerful thing. And so that was how it all started. And then I began journaling and I'm going to really shorten the story, but I.

Basically took the took this and ran with it and developed my own journaling techniques, which through the help of connecting with other women as well. I was able to lose for clothing sizes without dieting at all and have remained in that size body for like over three decades and continued to use these journaling techniques and [00:06:00] they've evolved.

And then I began using them with women that I coached. And they have also had, they also have had the same, great results. So 

Kylie: amazing. I just, I want to come back to what you said about, because my coping mechanism. And I always, when I talk about this on the podcast, I always frame it in.

I used a soothing tool that was available to me as a very young child, which was food. So alcohol's never been my thing. I have a parent that's alcoholic. And drugs have never interested me cause I don't want to be out of control. I'm using air quotes, but that was always how I felt. But for me, food was that.

Soothing thing. And you are so right. That is the surface issue. But underneath, and I'm speaking from my personal experience now, underneath it all was this deep sense of not feeling safe, not feeling supported, not wanting to be in my body because it wasn't a safe place to be because I often felt unsafe in my childhood home not forming real [00:07:00] relationships.

And also a big thing for me was this caretaking role that I was conditioned to be in that I have only just started dismantling in the last couple of years since perimenopause bitch slapped me. And I had to really look at how I was. Spending my energy and my time and my attention and my love, because I just couldn't do it all anymore.

Which is the blessing of perimenopause. Let's put that right out there. But I love that when you're saying evidence based journaling to me, I'm like, when I journal or when I have quiet time or whatever, I get much more. Connected to what my internal I'm going to use parts language, cause that's something that I'm familiar with, but that internal authentic self, it could be higher self.

The last lady that I just didn't interview with was. With was saying the voice of the Holy Spirit. So that's more of a kind of a religious connotation to that. But journaling has [00:08:00] always helped me separate between that authentic self and this voice of conditioning and fear and unsafety that has driven.

Body and the weight issues that actually was not the, the root cause. That's a very long summary of what you just said, but I really appreciate how growing up in that environment actually helps you to understand probably quicker than a lot of other people do because you're in a lot of. So you're seeking a solution for it when you say evidence based journaling, just to make sure that I'm understanding you and also our listeners, what does evidence based journaling versus journaling mean?

What's the kind of definition of how, what defines it? 

Sally: Journaling as a whole. Yeah, and I say evidence based journaling because it makes itself sound a little bit more credible. It's not. I think there are when I say evidence based journaling. I [00:09:00] also mean journaling that has had a study like research parameters put around it very carefully and very by the book following a specific protocol.

My background is not in research per se. So I, that's my general description of it. But one of the pioneers, I have a book right here is James Pennebaker. And this book is called, I'll read it opening up by writing it down, how expressive writing improves health and eases emotional pain.

So this is one book that I love in this person. James Pennebaker is still alive. And he was the one that I heard about when I was way back. So when I say evidence based journaling, it's mostly so that you don't think I'm talking about like dear diary. And what it means to me what I've done with journaling, just because you journal, it, people will just roll there.

I might've lost you already when I said journaling, cause you're like, Oh, I was rolling. [00:10:00] But what I do is I do a very it's got a framework to it and I ease you into it painlessly. So like the first thing I do is the self care pies, which we 

Kylie: may, I want to go, that's exactly my next question.

So roll on. 

Sally: It's got specific parameters. So when I say journaling, I say it's going to have some very specific parameters. It's not just going to be like, Oh, I'm just writing out there to the universe. It's going to have what you just said, somebody write, I write a letter and the letter, I may think of.

About that letter is coming from, I call it the critical voice. And then that letter is always going to be fought. If I write myself a letter from the critical voice and I just let myself have it, like you shouldn't have said that your hair's bad, whatever, all the mean things we say to ourselves, then that letter is going to always have a structure.

It's always going to be followed. And I covered this in the book over and over. It's always going to be followed by a letter from the compassionate.

Your hair is [00:11:00] perfect. I don't care if your nose is running right now. And you're have boxes unpacked right behind you that are just below the camera, because I moved three months ago, like things like that, like the voice says I love you no matter what you ate today, whether it's a whole sleeve of Ritz crackers.

I love you no matter what, you weigh, I love you. All the time. And that's so there's that structure to it is what is different for me. 

Kylie: This is actually the perfect, and it will actually be that the episode I just recorded will come out the week before this one. But yeah, we talk to the person that I interviewed was is a teacher of the course in miracles.

And so the way that she's describing. What you are, and it's all the same, is this voice of love. Voice of fear. Voice of love, voice of fear. And to me I it the identification of the fact that the critical voice was just a protective mechanism from my ego trying to keep me safe and all those mean things were just.

[00:12:00] To that end, then it actually makes it much more easy to then open up to the what would the compassionate part of me. And again, coming back to the parts work. That was the concept of, excuse me, ourselves having different parts. So critical and compassionate or whatever. And that all parts are there for our highest good because they're just trying to protect these little wounded, wounded parts of ourselves.

It's such a beautiful thing to understand because then you don't have to believe the voice, right? If the critical voice has gone nuts and you talk about this in the book as well. That was actually the one that I picked last night when I opened it about the critical voice is having its way with me today.

And I just thought the way. That you capture your inner dialogue is so beautiful because it reminds me again and again, that I don't have to believe goosebumps. I don't have to believe the critical voice when it turns up. And something that's been happening to [00:13:00] me in perimenopause is my critical voice has gotten so much louder.

And particularly when I'm not sleeping well, if I let it, it can go to town on these days when I haven't slept well. And I actually wrote a post about it. Probably about this time last year about mental health, sleep, and my sense of self are like a three legged stool. And anytime one of them is impacted, the other two, you fall off the stool.

So yeah, I love the concept of being able to journal backwards and forwards. And I love that you call yourself Sally girl, because when I do this kind of stuff, my dad used to call me pumpkin pie and that's how he emotional. Yeah, because that is that, I don't know. I can imagine how he would talk to me and he's been gone for a long time, but yeah, it opens up that sort of yeah, if you were talking to yourself like someone who deeply loved and cared about yourself, what would that voice say?

So powerful. Can we talk more about the pies? Because [00:14:00] I love first of all, the scientists in me loves the fact that when you talk about evidence, because I do think there's a lot of tools out there that people go, this will change your life, but there isn't actually. Any specific kind of proof or evidence behind it.

So I appreciate that from a science perspective. Let's talk about the pies as a framework. If it, or is it too big a concept to break down in a podcast? Cause I don't actually know. Oh, 

Sally: I think we can touch on it for sure. And I just wanted to add one thing to what you were just saying, Kylie, which is that.

The main benefit I derive from that, from journaling, is that it stops the rumination in my head just going around and around, and then I'm free to live my big amazing life and connect with the people that are important to me in my life, no matter big or small importance, just, the significant people in my life.

So so that said, the self care pies, I wanted to think of [00:15:00] something that was Easy to remember. And since I love pies just worked out, so it stands for physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. And so every day there's a therapist that I loved growing, into my young adulthood named Patricia Allen.

And she says, I know how much I love myself by the contracts I'm willing to make and keep. So I make A daily contract with myself and I do one thing for physical one for intellectual one for emotional one for spiritual, and it depending, you know when I began this I would write them down so that is in and of itself is very small form of journaling to if you're just a beginner and journaling is just to write the four things down.

So for example, today for physical, I brought the trash barrels in for intellectual. I did some reading about something that interested me for emotional. I [00:16:00] pet my dog and threw him the ball. So that was two things. And for spiritual, I Put lotion on my legs. So all four things are interchangeable.

They don't have to be like, you could say I put lotion on my legs for my physical or for my spiritual, they all can, it's just four things little things that I do for myself. And then if I don't keep the contract, this is where connection comes in. I will usually tell it to somebody else. So there's that connection and that accountability factor.

Then the next day I'll tell that friend. I kept the contract or I didn't keep the contract not to beat myself up, but to realize if I didn't keep any one of those contract items, it's because they were too hard. A huge overachiever perfect recovering perfectionist, all the things. So I have to keep it.

It's really simple. 

Kylie: I love this. I love this. I love this. I actually want to just ask you to repeat. So when you said about the surf contracts from Patricia Allen, can you say that again? [00:17:00] So 

Sally: I know how much I love myself by the contracts I'm willing to make and keep. So you got to keep them, but only if you don't keep them, it's just because they were too much.

And it means you need to make them easier. It doesn't mean like you blew it and you're a loser. You just need to make them. You're making it too hard. I have a 

Kylie: Go ahead. No. Go. You 

Sally: finish yours. I was going to say, if I have a scary phone call to make, like to a, like an attorney or some scary person, and I don't want to make it and I'm scared, I'll put it that I'm going to write their phone number down on part of my contract for one day.

And then the next day I can finally, hopefully get my nerve up to call the person. That's how little these are. We're talking little. Yep. Yep. 

Kylie: Yep. But the power of the little, and this is the power of the small. I will actually give a really great example of this. I have been wanting to, because I like I'm a copywriter mainly, and I spend a lot of time sitting at a computer and when I'm on holidays, [00:18:00] I will get.

10, 11, 12, 000 steps daily, no problem at all because I'm, I'm doing stuff. Whereas on a work day, I was getting about 1500 steps some days, which is so bad for your health, mentally, physically, emotionally, all of those things. And so I said to my friend, I really want to work this year on improving my step count.

And so I made 7, 000 my daily aim. And the way that I went about that was I just am going to go for a walk with the dogs every day. It doesn't matter if the walk is two minutes long, as long as I do it every day. And I tell you what, I don't do it every day anymore, but this is how I started this habit.

That has actually transformed into, I generally only take them for two or three kilometers a day, but over a week, Compared to the amount of incidental activity that I was, like I still go to the gym and the stuff that I do for formal exercise and the mental health change. But I have always like a recovering perfectionist like [00:19:00] you set the bar way too hard.

So I've been like, I'm going to go to yoga two times and I'm going to play ball and I'm going to do strength training. And then, and if I don't do all of that, I failed. And so the power of the small is where it's in the hubbub that comes from the power of the small. I love that. I really love that.

And when women, and when you introduce this concept to clients, what do they get as a result of these tiny little shifts? Because this is something else that I talk about in self care as well. Tiny things add up to quantum shifts over time. So when you actually are working with your clients, what's their response when you say, this is what you need to do.

And if it's not getting done, then you need to downgrade your expectations. What do people say? I'm very interested. 

Sally: They they're dubious. But I think it all it takes is like one day of going through the whole cycle where they're accountable and they [00:20:00] say they see and they get it and it gives them so much clarity because they will say I there's, my hormones are saying one thing and life is saying that I have to demanding that I do XYZ and how do I, how am I going to do this?

And I say can you commit to go to the grocery store today? They named the things, not me. And I say, can you do that today? And then just by the next day, they're like, they don't, you don't have to say anything. They get the feeling of Whoa, self 

Kylie: esteem. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're having an experience of perimenopause where your, ability to juggle or ability to whatever is diminished.

I think we've got this beautiful window of opportunity where we're answering an invitation to potentially need to change the ways that we're relating to ourselves. And, juggling which again, I think is a big blessing, which, painful at the time. I feel like I've been pushed through the eye of a needle [00:21:00] in the last few years, I have to say, but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel, which is good.

When you were talking about the physical, like the pies themselves, like the bits, what do you find happens once people start committing to all of those areas? Because do you find that some people are really Great at focusing on one thing. Like you might work with a client. That's always been an over exerciser type of person, but they're not doing anything for their spiritual health.

Haven't even thought about that because what the hell is spiritual health? Is that what you find? 

Sally: I do. I think that people will, first of all, just in general. People aren't really clear on what is spiritual self care? What is emotional self care, intellectual self care. And so just defining those things for them and helping them to see that there's a lot of overlap among all of those things.

And then if you couple that with perimenopause, we. For me, [00:22:00] perimenopause was like, I prided myself on my efficiency and all these things. And then it like, it went down, my efficiency went down and it just killed me. And I had to, right there, 

Kylie: Sally, right there. 

Sally: Yeah. 

Kylie: Are you? Yep. Yeah, I am. And like you're saying, identity wise, that's always been something I've really prided myself on being able to be efficient and really productive and all of those things.

And then all of a sudden I'm not. And I'm like who the F am I now what do I. Yeah. How do I hold on? Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Please continue. 

Sally: No. And so yes, people are tend to think why would I, why would it matter if I put lotion on my legs or why would it matter if I touched my stomach and put lotion on my stomach?

I'm like, Oh, try it. And they're like, Oh yeah, no way. I'm not going to touch my stomach. And then they do. And they. They really don't have words to describe it. They're just like, Oh, okay. [00:23:00] Does you mean I have, this is really important. I'm like, yes, it's very 

Kylie: important. Of connection, self connection, self care, self compassion, allowing yourself some grace, yeah, all of those things.

What do you reckon has made all of this not. Our default, like how have we been so pulled away from, this is a huge question because we could start with the patriarchy and work our way down. But what do you see when you're working with a client and you're suggesting these things, what do you reckon have been the barriers to this type of connection and care of self before?

I think 

Sally: Just like I was saying, like whatever, however, a woman has grown up And learn behavior that keeps you from connecting with people. And so it's going the opposite direction to try to connect with yourself. And then that's going to connect you to your [00:24:00] fellow humans. And I think some, for some of the clients I've worked with, it's a religious upbringing that You know, not to knock any religion, but just, that's one of the things, or like in my case, it was substance abuse in the family that just led to wanting to be perfect, look perfect, be perfect, do everything perfectly.

And that just separates us from our fellows instead of connects us with them. 

Kylie: And it's the process for me, true nature too, because. That perfectionism, it's a drive to try and control things so that, you can keep yourself safe or that at least is the way that I see my tendency for that. But it's separating us from ourselves because we then we have a lens of to be a, and again, air quoting good person or a good mother or a good wife or whatever the story [00:25:00] is that we've given ourselves the perfect sort of.

Yeah. Standard of reality is none of us are perfect. And so by definition, every time we are in our whole, complete authentic self, which is flawed and not going to get it right all the time. And all of those things we're saying bad, not good with, good is perfect and bad as authentic. And so we, we have that.

I don't know. I feel like particularly when it happens from a childhood perspective, it's like a plane going like one degree off course. One degree is not that much, but by the time we hit our forties and fifties, we can be so far away from understanding who we actually are. Like beautiful, love, higher self, whatever, however you want to language it.

Yeah. And it's that connection. I feel like perimenopause has also forced me to look at that gap. Like here's who I. If I'm really honest with myself [00:26:00] who I know that I am deep down the authentic self, the, and comes from a voice of love versus here's the persona that I've created over decades of conditioning.

And it's the persona that's causing me the suffering in the perimenopause particularly. And, like I said before, one of the personas that I definitely learned as a kid was the caretaker. So I had a hero's cape and I would sweep on in and, rescue people. , which has lost me so much peace of mind and autonomy and truth.

But I feel like when you are introducing these concepts, it's in, excuse me Sally's not well. So she's doing very well to be able to even speak to us. I must say too, Sally, just by the bye. Your glasses are awesome. I love, thank you. Who's that shape? Is it horn ripped? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. I love them and I want to buy them every time I go to get [00:27:00] new glasses and they suit my face, but I'm very cool. Oh my God. Thank you. I'm wondering what are some of the big things that you learned through your journey through perimenopause? So when you had that identity of. Being the efficient one, and then that got wobbly during menopause.

What did it invite you to evolve into, or what changed for you in the way that you see yourself in the world? Let's see. 

Sally: I always, I think my fear was being, unlovable if I wasn't perfect enough or whatever. And I've, let go of that all, year after year. It's been a work in progress.

And then too, Nowadays menopause is getting its day in the sun, but it's through prescriptions and over the counter and you got to get rid of the hot flashes and do this special diet and all these things and that kind of perpetuated the thought that gosh, when I As I age, I'm definitely not going to be lovable anymore if I'm having hot flashes or you know if I'm [00:28:00] sweaty or if I'm whatever and so I had to really, I had to give myself a lot of talking to about just that I am precious just the way I am.

And, whether I use Whether I'm having hot flashes or not, whatever, and really look at the emotional regulation or the emotional intelligence, the EQ, instead of the products or the diet or the specific exercise plan, all those things I'm very knowledgeable about and It's more about that emotional regulation piece for me.

And how do I, my my emotional agility, I like to think of it as too. And so I really have worked to develop those components of who I am emotional intelligence meaning like, can I identify a feeling when it comes, do I, and then do I know how to express it in healthy, normal and appropriate ways so just because [00:29:00] I've gotten older, and you know maybe wiser or whatever it doesn't mean I automatically.

Know how to express feelings in healthy, normal, and appropriate ways. I can't just vomit on you because you me off, I need to learn how to temper that and how to get so journaling again is where I go with that stuff and I talk about that in the book as well. But those are, I've really just had to strengthen my resolve and reassure myself.

Time and time again through perimenopause. And now I'm postmenopausal. 64 that this is what's right for me, despite what's going on out there in the world, all the noise that's telling me all the Super Bowl commercials about, products, what's my face looks like, how many wrinkles I have, all the things and to just tune it out and be true to me.

Kylie: Yeah. So much gold in what you're saying. I love that we're having more menopause conversations. I think that's good. I do [00:30:00] not love that it is automatically turned into a commercial. What can we sell to women? I think there is a huge danger in the existing narrative about hormone deficiency and a very medicalized way of looking at menopause, because I think it is again, reinforcing the gender and age bias against.

older women that they're somehow deficient. We are not deficient. We're undergoing a natural, normal transition. And I'm not anti HRT by any stretch of the imagination of a multi layered approach that I personally use, but I think there's a danger in people being sold. There is some sort of magic pill that will make this easier without the inner work and the self concept and identity shifts that you're talking about.

I am. Absolutely blessed at the moment as a copywriter to be working with someone who specializes in the psychology of midlife. And so as a result of that work, I've been doing [00:31:00] a lot of reading around the social and cultural lens of menopause versus the medical lens of menopause. And I have always talked about, I feel like perimenopause is a rite of passage.

I feel like there's. We've got an invitation to shed a lot of skins and really look at the way that we want to be in the world and what is no longer sustainable for us. I think that's a very powerful part of it. But in the reading that I've been doing and also in this particular person's body of work that she's developed over years, she's talking about these big shifts that similar to the shifts that we undergo in adolescence, which is very interesting.

So it's the other end of the reproductive. Years shift, but things like our sense of identity, our need for autonomy sexual sexual, I don't want to say healings, not the right word, but as the identity of being a sexual being and our ability to have intimacy with other people and also with ourselves.

So all of these huge concepts, and I think that. [00:32:00] What you're saying about emotional agility. I really love that term because I, emotional resilience is where my mind goes to, but agility is great. It makes me think of those agility dogs responding to their environment and being able to, yeah, very cool.

Can you tell us more about, because When you're talking about can I have a feeling, can I develop in myself to have a feeling, and this can include, the deep rage that some of us have in perimenopause. I definitely did. And I believe that's from any, many decades of suppressing my anger. Any who we can, that's a whole other episode.

But when you say I can have a feeling and I use journaling to help me, it sounds like journaling is part of your processing before you get to act. Which may definitely come from the conditioned part of ourselves that grew up in a dysfunctional household where people did vomit their feelings on other people.

Tell us a bit more about how you approach that [00:33:00] from a journaling perspective, because yeah, I feel like again, personal episode 

Sally: in 

Kylie: my therapy session, people, 

Sally: If I were to just, erupt on a person it's perfectly acceptable to have feelings of anger and disappointment and rage and all the things.

But it's what I do with those feelings. So typically what I'll do if I have those feelings that are those feelings, none of those feelings were allowed when I was growing up. So I just I ate them all. I stuffed them down. But so what I'll do is I will actually write the person a letter that the person is never going to receive.

Never. And that's where I get out. All I put all the stuff into the garbage disposal is one way of thinking about it. And then I will actually read the writing to a safe person who is not the person that it's about. And then that's like flipping the switch [00:34:00] and turning on the garbage disposal.

So that gets rid of all the feelings. But what that does also is from there, I'm able to separate out. There may be something that needs to be said to that person. But not all the things need to be said to the person So that's my way of sorting through in a safe manner where nobody gets hurt What is actually appropriate or healthy normal and appropriate to say to the person whether it's a boundary or You know I appreciate that this, you know You felt that way and that hurt my feelings when you said this or whatever, you know the thing Because if you, we want to, we're always going back to trying to connect with our fellows that.

That way you want to be heard if you want to connect with someone. If you say something that's venomous, you are not going to be heard. The person will go on the defensive. So this is a way that I sort through my thoughts and feelings and figure out the part that's [00:35:00] appropriate to say that can cultivate a an enhanced relationship with that person or help me decide that person's not for me.

And I don't want that person in my life anymore, but I don't. Put them in the friend's graveyard without thinking about it first. I don't make hasty decisions that are based on rash, nothing, not 

Kylie: logic, emotion, high emotion. That is often not a response necessarily to what happened right in front of you, but is triggering something that has happened multiple times in the past.

Yes. I'm just thinking about all of the relationships that have ended up in my friend's graveyard because I haven't had the emotional capacity to do what you're talking about in my younger years, where I just found it very difficult to communicate clearly what my needs were and what my boundaries were because my boundaries were, I didn't have any boundaries.

I didn't have any boundaries because my relationship with this parent is so colored the way that All of my relationships flowed. And so what would [00:36:00] happen is someone would do something that yeah, either did hurt me or did trigger that big ball of emotion. And I didn't have the skill to sort it out, like you're saying.

And so I would just be like, I'm not speaking to you ever again, because I need to protect myself, but I don't have any better way of doing it than just going, I'm not going to deal with you. And it makes me very sad for my younger self. Because I've lost friendships that I didn't need to. I just could have had a proper conversation and yeah, anyway.

You can't fix things going backwards, but I'm very grateful that I have developed the skill to do that a little bit more. I'm interested to hear, because you keep on coming back to the concept of connecting with our fellows. And you said something before, which I really loved. It's like connecting to yourself is a gateway to learning how to connect with other people or having the experience of that connection.

What do you reckon? When you were going through perimenopause, what shifted in your ability [00:37:00] to connect as a result of like the emotional agility you were just talking about, but also was there other layers of, I don't know, like barriers or things that, that caused you to keep people at arm's distance?

Like what other things have you found in that sort of transition stage or since whichever. Now it's 

Sally: my therapy. I think. I think pain from a marriage that hadn't been working and that I'd been trying to decide whether to stay or go for basically about 10 years. That wait, this is so emotional.

Say the question again. 

Kylie: Thank you for your grace. And you don't have to answer if you don't want to. No, I will. I'm just interested because when you're saying connection to self as a gateway to connection to others and As through this like midlife transition, we go through a lot of, learning different ways of being, I'm just interested what [00:38:00] else contributed to holding people at arm's length, rather than having that connection that you keep on talking about with your fellows.

I feel like 

Sally: I. Needed to gain more humility and as in like teachability, because I tend to, don't, who I am. I'm intelligent. I've kept this weight off all these years through, a lifestyle change. I've done amazing things in my life, as I'm sure you have too. And a lot of your listeners have.

And then to say, okay, at that point I was like in my mid forties Am I going to have to like, learn some more new stuff? I don't want to learn more new stuff. I thought I was done. 

Kylie: So exhausting. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I totally relate to that, particularly when you've done amazing things and they become part of the way that you identify yourself, because it's this is my outward expression of proving [00:39:00] my self to the world type of thing.

And then it's Whoa, hang on a minute. I can be an intelligent person. And my husband loves to say this about me. We are the exact opposite. Like I'm super book smart, like academic and that sort of smart, but I cannot. Like I have no spatial or manual intelligence at all. Like I reckon I'm in the negative.

Like I can bump into a couch behind me. Like I just do not have the ability. And this has been shown in we've renovated a lot before. And he'll be like, Oh, just move this wall and whatever. I'm like, no. I've got nothing. There's nothing going on in my head. And I feel like one of the ways I identified myself was like the achievement of like academic success and that sort of stuff.

But then it's really confronting to be forced to realize that your emotional intelligence just may not be at the stage you would like it to be, or that would allow that true connection. And yeah, it's confronting. Really confronting and I 

Sally: did just [00:40:00] for the record. I did decide eventually to leave that marriage and there was a huge fear of what's that gonna be like, can I make it can I and I'm here to say like I am making it.

I I am so my life is so much better now. My, I have so many rich relationships, my existing ones got better and new amazing ones came in to my life as well. And that was probably the most scary thing I've ever done in my life. And and I did it. Kind 

Kylie: of the balance of making that decision that you wouldn't necessarily settle in a relationship.

And then it becomes like almost like the springboard to actually develop deeper relationships. Because I think when you're accepting less than what you really want to wish for in a relationship, it [00:41:00] can impact. The way that you allow all relationships to happen. It's if you downgrade expectations in one area, it by definition, I don't know whether it's, yeah.

So I wonder whether saying no, I actually am choosing something different enabled the richer relationships or were you just on that trajectory anyway, it's probably all part of that transition. I think it 

Sally: facilitated a lot more growth to do that scary thing and to just jump into the unknown and go, I don't know if I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life, but it's okay.

I'm going to do it anyways. Yeah. 

Kylie: Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. I have marked a couple of things in your book that I wanted to read out in this interview because I actually, we've talked about the first one, but I really love how you talk about the critical inner voice in this little snippet chapter.

I love these snippet chapters because when I get into bed, I do not want to read a whole chapter of anything. I just want. A couple of little [00:42:00] things. So it's been perfect. This is chapter 12 in Sally's first book. And we haven't spoken about your second book. So we need to get to that as well. Critical inner voice buys a bullhorn and works over time.

First of all, amazing picture, great storytelling. I have a critical voice inside my head that talks incessantly. No, I'm not psychotic to the best of my knowledge. It's a voice that constantly shames me or shoulds me. You should not have said that. You should have done that. You should already know that.

You should be finished already. If I had to draw a picture of what's going on in my head, I would draw a little man riding atop a big old 1970s station wagon carrying a bullhorn and screaming mean things. Would I say these things to you? No. Would I keep people in my life who spoke to me this way?

Absolutely not. Now it does go on. But that voice, which definitely can be ramped up in the perimenopause transition [00:43:00] for people to understand that it's actually, it can be part of the psychological shift that we undergo in perimenopause. You are not alone. If that is your reality, that is also my reality.

And like I said before, on the days that I'm not sleeping well, or I'm under extra stress, the bullhorn man gets even louder. It's your defenses are down or something. I just really love. The way that you make that so identifiable for people, I think that you just, yeah, your writing is beautiful.

I also love this one. This is the other end of the spectrum and I wanted to read this one out because. When you are having those days that are really tricky and trying this awareness, and particularly this often comes up when I talk to people in post menopausal years where they're like their overarching message to those of us in the messy middle is it is for a purpose and it does get better, and I hold [00:44:00] on to that on those days.

So I love this too green light days, when you're driving someplace and every light turns green, just as you approach, even the lights that usually stay red, super long, but all green. When this happens, usually everything else also seems to go well that day. It's the strangest thing. My son is easygoing and doesn't try to torture the dogs.

My hormones cooperate with my agenda. I feel on top of the world. And then this is my favorite bit. I only have a green light day about once every three months, but they are significant. And so I just want to say to anyone who's at either end of those extremes, it is all for purpose. And it is all I think necessary to this transformation that we're undergoing and thank you for your beautiful way of sharing the reality of both ends of the spectrum and everything in between.

That's just two of my favorite little bits that I've come across and I haven't [00:45:00] read every single bit because I've only been snacking so beautiful. Beautifully said. What would you say, I know this is one of those twee hypothetical questions, but if you could look back, I don't know, say to 40 year old Sally, what do you reckon the thing that you would most want her to understand about you?

This self connection as a gateway to connection in your 

Sally: life.

Love the hell out of yourself. Despite your better judgment. 

Kylie: And when the bullhorn man comes, just realize it's just one part of you and you can. You can relate to yourself through that self compassion filter. Love you. Please tell us about your second book because I haven't mentioned it and I would like you to be able to share that with our audience.

Sally: The second book. So the first book is where you figure out okay. This is perimenopause. And even [00:46:00] though I didn't give my permission, I could possibly be there. The first book and then just going okay, what's that going to look like and how am I going to embrace it? And then the second book is more about, all right.

You may actually be postmenopausal, but you don't have to be. You may just have read the first book and you're advanced now. But the second book is now that this is happening, how are you going to spread your wings and get back to the community and. Like really go with your like best talents like, you don't want to deprive the world of the wonderful you.

So how are you going to do that? How are you going to give back to the community with your special talents? 

Kylie: So good. How are you going to deliver your gifts to the world? Because if not now, when? So good. Something else I want to touch on touch on also to bring our conversation to a close is when you [00:47:00] We're talking about your pies before something that you included in your answers was the pies self care concept pies can help women make friends with their bodies as well.

And we haven't really spoken about the body end of things. So as our kind of culmination thing, like we've talked about connection to self, how can our connection and our relationship with our bodies? shift through that more self care, more connection, more awareness.

Sally: I think just doing the self care pies, you, it is going to come the making friends with your body, the improving your immune and mental health, the breaking free from the negative self talk that voice that goes on in our head that we've been talking about today, that it's just. Gonna happen.

It's a byproduct of doing that. Especially the things where where there are things that involve with maybe like looking [00:48:00] at yourself in the mirror and saying I love you. No matter what things look like, what you know, if you're wanting to grab your arm or whatever your thing is that you grab and grimace.

Things like that, those it's just going to be a byproduct and sometimes when I started doing all these things I had, I didn't believe they were going to work, and I just took direction from someone who had been there before me and I trusted them and. And I believe them that it could happen if it could happen for them, it could happen for me and a lot of faith.

I just had to believe. 

Kylie: So good. So good. So good. I have loved everything that we've chatted about. You have a really cool quiz on your website that I also wanted to talk about. So can you tell us? We'll put in the show notes where to find it, but can you tell us a little bit about the quiz and what it helps people to uncover if they're at, particularly if they're at that beginning point where they're like, I did not give my permission.

[00:49:00] This is not happening. I'm in denial. 

Sally: I was there. I think I call it. the quality of your longevity instead of I found in several years of being obsessed with menopause and helping women don't want to hear that word. So now I say longevity instead, and I think your title, I know your title of your podcast has recently changed.

I like to talk about maximizing your longevity and making the best of it. And I, it doesn't matter whether you're menopausal or where you are hormonally. It's always going to be in your best advantage to live your best life and your longest, your best quality longevity life, if you are emotionally literate.

So it, I it's like a twofer because you're saying like, what are these feelings? Could it be menopause? And it's just to educate you and maybe even if you know someone else, [00:50:00] maybe you've come to terms with the whole perimenopause transition, someone and they can't, you don't know how to have that conversation with them.

You can say Hey, I heard about this quiz, take this quiz. And the quiz is gonna just talk about feelings and gently bring you into. Feelings, identification and perimenopause and if any of this hat fits for you, you might want to wear it, and this will help you take charge of your longevity, prioritize it and maybe share it with a friend.

Kylie: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, if you do have a friend, I'm actually thinking about one particular person I was just talking to the other day and she was saying. A few things about, sleep's changed and cycles changed and her ability to manage stress has changed. And I said, do you think that she's my age in, in the window of like potential that this could be perimenopause.

And I said, do you think it might be the start of perimenopause? And her look of horror was like, no, I was like, oh okay. Just wondering. But. Actually having [00:51:00] somewhere to send someone to who is very like, nope, not happening to me. That's not my story. That happens to old people or whatever it is. Is actually very helpful. 

Sally: Yes. And you know what I also wanted to say too is I if you in my book I talk about varsity menopause like varsity being, like the best athletic people on the team and everything and So I call it the varsity longevity starter kit. So if you don't, if you take the quiz, you're going to get the access to the free varsity longevity starter kit just to jumpstart you and help you look at your longevity.

And it gives you links. To some cool podcasts that are very matter of fact. And they talk about things like, lubrication and things that are super important during menopause people don't like to say. And it's some cool links in there to, in the varsity longevity starter kit that, can give you, some books, some other things.

And then I just tell people also find an accountability partner. [00:52:00] You don't have to. Do this alone. And if you do introduce us to a friend that may open up like a whole beautiful relationship with that person where you can have that conversation and not feel alone and isolated anymore. 

Kylie: I have a friend that is exactly like that.

We keep in touch on the daily through voice noting, and then also catch up every couple of weeks we aim for, but that relationship and the level of accountability that's just brought. Like what I was saying with the walking, that's the same friend. It's been really powerful because I can promise things to myself and.

Let it not be important, but yeah, when I'm externalizing it, it makes me more clear on why I want to do things as well, because sometimes it's just like a list. But then when I'm like, I really want to walk. Like I don't care about my step count. What I care about is feeling like I'm moving my body in a way that actually makes me feel [00:53:00] good and helps me to age well, yeah I just think that accountability is super important and to be able to say I voice noted it this morning and I was like, I have had four and a quarter hours sleep. What the actual F this is ridiculous. But I guess we use each other like a journaling thing because it's okay, now I've externalized it.

And the fact is, I've got joyful things on my list. To do and not much demand at all. And I will probably have an afternoon nap and it's all so not adding the suffering on top of the story. Sally Bartlett, you have been a joy. I highly recommend if you are like me and you don't love like reading big chunks of stuff at night.

Anyway, this is my thing. I love the fact that I can just dive into this. And very often it's the perfect thing. That's what I love. It's choose your own adventure. It's Oh, that's a good reminder today. 

Sally: Like my time. 

Kylie: So thank you so much for what you do in the world [00:54:00] and sharing so generously, and we will put all the links to everything, but you can find, I can't even find your, where is your website, my love?

Please share the 

Sally: website. Sally Bartlett. com. Sally Bartlett. 

Kylie: com. Perfect. So it's B A R L E T T. 

Sally: Kind of similar to that? B A R T L E T 

Kylie: T. Oh, did I not say that far out? Okay. I can't spell people, but I am tired. Have a wonderful evening. And it's been a joy. Thank you so much for sharing. 

Sally: Thank you.