July 2024: To a Better 2045!

Host Bill McGeeney is joined by Ken Walczak of Dark Sky International, Lya Osborn of Light Justice, and the award winning landscape astrophotographer, Josh Dury.

See Full Show Notes, Lighting Tips and more at LightPollutionNews.com. Like this episode, share it with a friend!

Bill's Picks:

• Florida won't light bridges in rainbow colors. So Jacksonville's LGBTQ community did., David Bauerlein, Jacksonville Florida Times-Union. 
• Giant, mysterious laser beam appears over San Francisco, Ariana Bindman, SFGate. 
• Scientists Say Light Pollution Could Interfere with Coral Spawning, TaiwanPlus News. 
• Diurnal predators in dim light: the ability of mantids to prey for supper, Environmental Entomology. 
• A LIGHT FOR TOMORROW, Chris Herring, Portland Winter Light Festival. 

Transcript

Bill McGeeney: 0:02

light pollution news july 2024 to a better 2045 illumination, luminance, tomato, tomato. What a show we have for you today. Conflict over bridge lighting in jacksonville, it's not what you think. Is there a street lighting level most people feel comfortable with? And have you seen a positive representation of night in cinema recently, this month? Month from Light Justice Leah Osborne, photographer extraordinaire Josh Dury, and from Dark Sky International and the Adler Planetarium, mr Cam Walchak.

Bill McGeeney: 0:51

All this and much more coming up to another Light Pollution News, the monthly podcast where we talk about news as it pertains to the wide field of light pollution. Light pollution is, first and foremost, a discussion where we aim not just to keep you up to date on the things that are going on, but also to facilitate conversations around the topics driving light pollution. You can find all of the links that we talk about today over at our website, lightpollutionnewscom, where you can also comment or email us directly. If you're listening to the podcast on a podcast player, be sure to hit that subscribe button so that way you can always receive future shows here. So I'm your host, bill McGeady, and this month we are going to do something a little different. You at home probably aren't aware of this, but I routinely poll my guests. I can hear he's aware of it. But one thing that I kept hearing loud and clear is that they want to see the show trimmed down some. So it's a little easier said than done because the way the shows are built each month, but starting this month I'm actually going to split these shows. So you're going to receive the first half early in July and then mid-July you're going to receive the second half of the show, hoping to make that more bite-sized for a lot of people, so more people can enjoy the show.

Bill McGeeney: 1:56

Also, before we begin, I want to make you at home aware of our mailing list. Each month we send out one email, that's right, just one for which you will receive access to both monthly shows right away. It's a straightforward emailer. Includes three of our top stories of the month, a listener poll, little blurb that I usually include. That may include anything from like, say, books I'm reading or who knows what. It's usually based around topics of the show.

Bill McGeeney: 2:19

Actually, this month, I think, leah, you said you're going to shoot over some links. So month, I think, leah, you said you're going to shoot over some links, so we'll have some links from one of our guests here that you can take a look at, and last month we actually included stuff from another one of our guests, so it's a good little mailer. It only goes out once a month. I'll use your email for anything else but that mailer and you can sign up for that over at lightpollutionnewscom. And lastly, before we begin, you can find all the links of this show over at light pollution newscom simply by clicking on the individual show link, which is also going to include the script that we're using for the show as details on today's guests. So this july I'm thrilled to have two new faces with us and one familiar face. We are stretched far and wide this month from. I believe. Leah, you're out in seattle, right? Is that where you're? That's right.

Josh Dury: 3:04

Yeah, so you're already out on the right. Is that where you're at? That's?

Bill McGeeney: 3:04

right? Yeah, yeah. So you're all the way out on the West Coast. Let me try and do the best I can to introduce you. So you have a deep background in lighting, right? You went to, you have a fine arts degree in lighting and you are a lighting designer by trade, right?

Lya Osborn: 3:18

Yeah, that's correct. And funny thing, I actually came to lighting design because I'd had a terrible experience with lighting in the workplace, kind of my first career in public diplomacy. But I went back to school, I got an MFA, a double MFA in architectural lighting design and in interior design at Parsons. Wow, I really wanted to build my toolkit for problem solving around lighting.

Bill McGeeney: 3:40

Right? Was it kind of like a factory that you were in when the bad experience? What was it like inside, I guess?

Lya Osborn: 3:46

It was a workplace which I'm sure a lot of your listeners can empathize with. A lot of the spaces that we spend a lot of time in, you know, as humans in this day and age aren't really designed for our visual comfort. You know, lighting is there typically and then sort of the checkmark, but it's not really thoughtful or considered. So I was actually in a giant brutalist building down in Washington DC in the department of state, my first job out of college.

Bill McGeeney: 4:11

Wow, that sounds like a fun job. I assume that the lighting probably was a little stressful. So a couple of months back we showcased an article I want to pull this article up, since you're here that had a ferry terminal done by dark light design. Did you know about this guy? Did you know about this one?

Lya Osborn: 4:25

Yeah, yeah, darklight is a wonderful lighting design firm here in Seattle Really thoughtful practitioners of lighting design. I haven't actually been to the new fairy terminal yet, but I have seen photos and there's really thoughtful use of lighting for wayfinding. You know, lighting design is often brought into an architectural project to augment the architecture, but a good lighting designer is constantly thinking about who's in the space, who's using the space, what's outside of the space, who's being impacted, and dark light design has absolutely done a spectacular job there.

Bill McGeeney: 5:00

Yeah, this, this looked like a pretty amazing setup they had out in Seattle and and for a ferry terminal, right Like you look at it and, first off, there's nothing abrasive about this setup. The light is very ambient and it still draws the eye to where it needs to go. It seems to be very uniform. Obviously it's very artistic. I guess it's kind of sad that we have to say it's artistic if there's thought behind it, but it's very impressive and I don't know if Ken, you or Josh had actually seen this, but it's a very, very cool setup, especially for being I don't know about the rest of you and Leah, you know you've grown up in New York city like transit hubs are kind of like just filled up with as much light as possible in every crevice and you know that's, that's how you do it. Everything is kind of to the max, I guess, right, and this is very neat.

Lya Osborn: 5:47

Yeah, they did a great job. I'm aware that they worked very closely with the architects and the you know and the engineers to make sure that they're also lighting was contributing to their sustainability goals. I think it's a LEED Silver project. So that's something that you know lighting design is able to do is really consider where light needs to be. Like you know, you can look at photos. There's lighting pointing down on steps, for instance, where you know you need to not have too much contrast or shadow to have this sense of you know, knowing where you're going to step. And, as you said, you know, transit hubs are places where, generally, when we're there, we're mission focused, right, we're trying to get from one place to another. Maybe we're rushing, maybe we have kids with us and we, you know, we're trying to manage a lot. So lighting design ideally is serving, you know, is serving people in that space, allowing them to move quickly to where they need to go. You know, not creating it, maybe. Maybe also, as you said, like creating a sense of place and joy, ideally as well.

Bill McGeeney: 6:48

I think I would really enjoy being in that transit hub.

Lya Osborn: 6:50

I mean usually I'm trying to get out as fast as possible but, something

Bill McGeeney: 6:54

like that where you don't feel stressed, I wouldn't feel stressed, maybe others would, but I wouldn't feel stressed with that. That's pretty great. Well, since we're still talking on this, the lighting design, I was actually invited to a local Philadelphia IES chapter for their award ceremony and they had some incredible examples of what thoughtful, really deliberate lighting can produce. And there's some awards that they gave out for designing groups that did stuff over in Duluth setting up a hospital out there, I believe, which is a phenomenal setup and even some of the work they did outside trying to maintain a dark sky, awareness and friendliness. And yeah, it is pretty astounding, when we come at it with a deliberate, thoughtful approach, what you can make and it's very pleasing on the eye.

Bill McGeeney: 7:41

So I'm still kind of new to understanding the lighting industry pleasing on the eye. So I'm still kind of new to understanding lighting industry. What share of the industry that uses or sets up lighting actually uses lighting engineers, or are lighting engineers always used? And it's not. You know, obviously there's places which people don't want artistic, like a gas station does not want to be art. Well, I, I think I will go to a gas station that has some aesthetic to it, but most gas stations do not want to be artsy, so do you understand what I'm asking? Like what part of the industry, what percentage uses that kind of lighting.

Lya Osborn: 8:12

Yeah, and I, you know, I think it might be helpful to think of it this way. You know, you have architects oriented towards daylight. What's the HVAC system like? How is it put together? Is it earthquakes? So there are so many considerations and ideally, if you have a great building that's built by an architect, it's hitting all those marks.

Lya Osborn: 8:48

Well, as we know, most buildings in the world are not designed by architects, right, a lot of them go up. They have to go up quickly. There may be a developer or a contractor driven, and these folks also have a lot of skill. They know what they're doing and they are usually relying more on code, right, they're, they're making sure that they meet codes, they meet standards. Sometimes, you know, they have connections to, you know, to an architect. I mean, you need certain stamps and so forth.

Lya Osborn: 9:18

But I just offer this example, you know, because for lighting as well, I would say to even larger degree, most spaces don't benefit from a dedicated lighting designer's thinking and background, and that's something that I personally, you know, have, I find to be a problem, because, you know, going back and getting this training as a lighting designer, you know, for me it was really to start getting the language and the tools around. How do I describe what I'm seeing and how do I understand what it's actually doing to the human eye and how do I really understand what the impact is to the world around us? And from there, with that understanding, how do I begin to make decisions and help other people make decisions? So that, I think, is the role of a lighting designer. It's kind of a shame, I think, that a lot of lighting design goes to where these big budgets are right and often we're brought on by an architect you know who, you know who has gotten the okay from the client to say, okay, great, we have this budget for lighting design.

Lya Osborn: 10:17

Maybe you know it's a retail space or hospitality space or or a ferry terminal, right when this there's an emphasis on the human experience. But you know my personal, my personal mission and some work that I've been doing with light justice, which is really exciting, is just to make lighting design thinking and this toolkit and these resources more accessible to all people, whether they're advocates for you know, for you know our night sky, whether they are simply homeowners making a decision on light bulb. You know, I think everybody should be given a little bit more language around light so that they can feel like they can make the decisions that help them and and feel good for them.

Bill McGeeney: 10:58

Yeah, well said, and that'll help you out, probably too, cause then you have a basis for understanding what you're trying to sell them, right? That's yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's. Part of the problem is that people don't have a paradigm for that, probably.

Lya Osborn: 11:11

Right and you know you. You know, once you identify your needs, your own needs, then you kind of have a sense of who you want to go to support from Right. If I'm, if I'm feeling like you know I could really use the advice of a nutritionist, for example, but you know I've never met with one. It might feel a little daunting. So you know, there's so many examples of you know skills and toolkits and backgrounds that are highly specified. But you know, if there's a sense of, oh, I know who to go and ask to bring in on this project, or you know to get advice from, then that channel becomes clear and I'd love to see more lighting designers working on smaller projects and also just supporting advocates around protecting our night skies.

Bill McGeeney: 11:56

Okay, well, also with us today is a photographer of all stripes, not just astrophotography, someone who won big through landscape astrophotography, right, josh. Josh Dury is over here. You may have seen some of his work on previous publications, such as NASA, bbc, cnn. There's multiple others in there that I did not include, but, josh, so you kind of promote that conservation through your photography. Why don't you tell us about that? What got you inspired to do what you do?

Josh Dury: 12:26

Oh gosh, it has to start off when I was at the age of seven years old, bill. So I remember the days when the biker mice from Mars used to be on the television when I was a youngster and it was always for me that sort of curiosity of life on other worlds. So it started off. You know that typical journey of any astronomer you get your first basic telescope and you look up to the planets of our solar system Jupiter, saturn and what have you and that journey I wanted to somehow document it. So it was taking photographs, taking this photo album into school with me every day, showing my friends, and it then sort of spiraled into an education. They then sort of spiraled into an education. So I went on to study photography during a degree and I was awarded with first class honors with astrophotography.

Josh Dury: 13:11

And where I am based in the southwest of england, which is near to a city called bristol, is otherwise known as the uk's climate capital now. So you guys might be aware of BBC documentaries such as Blue Planet 2 by Sir David Attenborough. Of course the documentaries are life changing, environmentally as well. So when we saw these classic, iconic shots of albatrosses eating plastic bottles, it kind of made me think, well, we have got an impact here of the environmental impacts on the ground. But I thought, hang on a minute, nobody is looking up.

Josh Dury: 13:50

And this was especially during a time when I was introduced to some lovely delegates from the International Dark Skies Association, that I'd become a delegate here for Bristol and the South West of England and I thought you know what I really need to make a film. So having that opportunity to engage with the BBC here in the UK to say, look, we have got a problem here with lighting and you know, like, not just for the UK, for you guys, it's just a global issue. So to have that situation then being presented to public highways and, even further afield, to local charities as well, it's sort of escalated now into so many multiple projects as to how photography can be used as a visual platform to generate an emotional response.

Bill McGeeney: 14:37

So from those early days of taking innocent photographs of the planets to now carefully choreographing images that demonstrate this impact that light pollution has to the environment has had a very interesting outlook in terms of astrophotography well said, and I think a prior guest was on that said you know, hey, we never get bored of looking at the stars, never get bored of looking at the stars, never get bored of looking at birds, never get bored of looking at turtles and fireflies, and that's. This is a good segue. Over to Ken Again. Welcome back First, ken Walczak, welcome back from the Adler Planetarium, a man of many talents, man who does many things, board member for Dark Sky International and like you, joshosh, I like doing photography.

Bill McGeeney: 15:23

I don't have any award-winning photos, but I I've been lucky enough this year to be in areas that have just had incredible lightning, bug, firefly shows, like I don't know how it's happened, but I've just been in the right spot, the right time and I've been able to take some. And one of them actually was here in the city, in a wooded area that's that really has no, that's pretty much left to its own and there's really no abutting lights or anything to it. And it just happened one day that the whole sky kind of like we're not sky, but like the whole forest just lit up a couple weeks ago. And so I get it, josh, and it's always spectacular. We have an unpredictable nature doing something versus a man-made, which is not saying like we can't make nice things. But it's not the same, like when you see something that you can't control, that you know someone's not controlling, that is doing something that makes your eye and your brain just marvel at. What's going on is masterful. But, ken, let's talk about you, man. How you been, how's life?

Ken Walczak: 16:26

Busy, but in a good way.

Bill McGeeney: 16:29

Yeah, that's good. So I know you did last time we talked. You're doing work on Light Radiance and you have an article that we're going to talk about this month on that very topic, I believe. Is there anything else going on that's new out in your way, Ken?

Ken Walczak: 16:45

Nielsen. Well, I think you. Is there anything else going on that's new out in your way? Well, I think you've covered it a couple of times. You mentioned the. It's actually been less than a year now. We started a process that we got the ear of a state Senator here in Illinois and one of the dark sky Chicago chapter members was just happened to be talking to her while she was campaigning, she on his door and well, the rest is history, because she named senator laura ellman and she became the sponsor. She reached out to us and said write me a bill and let's get this thing passed.

Bill McGeeney: 17:13

And wow, I didn't know that's how it happened. I didn't realize it was. She was that enthusiastic and I got to sense she was enthusiastic about it. But you know, I I don't politicians right, you don't know what game they're playing.

Ken Walczak: 17:32

Well, I mean, yeah, I mean. So I say that the last year has been a really deep learning experience for myself. It's like I'd never been involved in legislation and government and policy and stuff in this way before, but I've so appreciated every step of the way and we actually got so. The initial bill was supposed to cover all. It would be a dark sky friendly policy. So any future lighting or retrofits in Illinois that would be under Illinois, you know, ownership or you know state ownership, would have to comply to specifics of a dark sky compliant. You know lighting.

Ken Walczak: 18:03

And as always with politics, it was sort of took a lot of whittling down, a lot of negotiation and you know I testified for the first time I ever have in front of the state Senate in support of the bill. But eventually what happened was just out of negotiations and all was that. It got whittled down to just applying the Department of Natural Resources lands, which you know what is, as the senator told us, that you know, just to get it this far, this soon, this quickly is is it's baby steps. You start somewhere and then you know, you show how it didn't. The sky didn't fall when you and it's a natural that the Department of Natural Resources would be those who are going to be using these dark side principles, because obviously they're working with natural lands, they appreciate the environmental and the Don't some of them in Illinois already do that?

Bill McGeeney: 18:51

I remember having some articles come through that you had some outside of Chicago, some I want to say suburbs, that way.

Ken Walczak: 18:58

We actually have two dark sky communities in the Chicago area, suburbs of Chicago. So you know that's like on a municipal level yeah, I mean this is on a larger level and also, you know, there's a lot of it's kind of what Leo was saying there's a lot of need for people to be kind of aware of what they need or what they want or what would be beneficial before you can even, you know, make a change. And that's what we've been working hard at doing. Dark Sky Chicago, our chapter, is educating people. You know, here wait just to give you an example here's the list of the talks I've given this year.

Bill McGeeney: 19:31

They got about 15 there. Is that 15, 20? I don't know? 18. 18. I was close, yeah there you go.

Ken Walczak: 19:36

So it's that outreach, you got it.

Ken Walczak: 19:37

You got to get into the minds of people and I see the awareness is growing of this issue. And just, I think, another thing, laius, you said that, leah, that you said was you know, sometimes maybe it's not even on your radar until someone shows you a good example and you say oh, I didn't realize that you didn't need spotlights in my eyes. I want that, that staircase. You know it's about good design and there are alternatives out there, and I think that's where you know you got to give a alternative and so that's what we're hoping to do.

Ken Walczak: 20:11

When this bill got passed unanimously in the state Senate, it passed pretty much along party lines but, but definitely with a majority in the statehouse. It's sitting at the governor's desk right now. If it gets signed in the next month, we're hoping it will actually go into effect and then we can start showing in the future that, like I said, the sky's not falling. You actually can have good lighting that not only achieves a purpose and achieves what it's intended to, but it actually can be environmentally, health and ecologically and, you know, friendly.

Bill McGeeney: 20:43

I suspect a lot of the resistance was on the cost side.

Ken Walczak: 20:47

You know. I'm glad you brought that up because one of the you know lessons I've learned over the last few years is that you know you need to gather support not only just from people being interested in, but also information. And that was the fact when I testified in front of the state Senate. That was one of the questions I got from one of the senators was well, how much is it going to cost the state? And I said it's actually going to save the state.

Ken Walczak: 21:11

Because if you have poorly used lighting or poorly, you know, implemented design, you're actually wasting a lot of energy. You're wasting a lot of energy and you're not filling the purpose it's for. You know well-shielded lights. You know conforming to the five principles responsible for lighting. They're literally other than the fifth principle with about color, at least the fourth. Four for sure are literally an energy savings plan. You know you're not using a light if you don't need to. It's only as bright as it needs to be. It's only shining where it needs to be. Those photons are being wasted. And then also, you know, with modern lighting controls, be it. You know dimming, motion sensing, timing, you know everything else that you're not using that light when it's not. So you know, that was my pitch to the senator who was asking the question. In fact, he got on board after.

Bill McGeeney: 22:01

I answered those questions. It worked in All right Need to get you over here in Pennsylvania. Well, this is a good segue into something that I saw recently. So before we get started today, I know we're about to hear listeners in the U? S are about to celebrate independence day and I had to pick up Apple TV this year because the Philadelphia Phillies are our baseball team here has like a game a week on Apple TV for some ungodly reason. So when you do it, you know you check out what else is on Apple TV, and one of the series was this mini series on Ben Franklin on Apple TV. Being a history nerd, I said heck, what the heck? We'll give it a spin and I really liked it, minus a couple of filler episodes.

Bill McGeeney: 22:45

One of the things I found on it was the way they treat it in night, and this was really interesting. The show portrayed night as being in my mind and I'm no expert on this, but in my mind as it portrayed people's interaction with night in a realistic way from 40, 18th century night Wasn't? They had oil lamps? They had, well, you know, probably CGI, but oil lamps that burn mildly are all the light was very modest. There are plenty of scenes when darkness actually played a supporting role. There was areas where there was no washout from production lighting, there were no light towers you light towers trying to set the scene. Night scenes weren't portrayed as scary or nefarious or bad. Rather, night was just simply portrayed as night. And I don't know if you at home have seen the series. If you have, I'd be curious to what your thoughts were on how to show portrayed night. It's bill at lightpollutionnewscom. But in the meantime, how about any of you, any of my guests have? Have you guys seen any good examples of the way night has been portrayed in cinema?

Lya Osborn: 23:49

I mean I'd love to this. Maybe isn't what everybody's mind would jump to, but my mom's from taiwan and I grew up spending a lot of time with my grandparents and in taipei and as a kid I remember watching a lot of Kung Fu movies and some of my favorite scenes for the night, scenes right, where where there's really just illumination coming from the moon and the moon's usually really big for some reason in these, like the moon's always full, but but you know there's. There's this sense of. You know, it wasn't always creepy, right, it wasn't like an ominous scene, but there was just a sense of like the night isn't totally dark.

Lya Osborn: 24:25

Right, you can, you can sneak around, you can also just stroll around. Right, you can hold a little lantern and that is plenty right to to get from, you know, one building to another to take a little stroll. But I remember just the, this really lovely kind of sense of mystery and beauty in the natural world, you know, moonlight kind of filtering through trees and leaves. It made an impression on me and it's a funny thing. I haven't actually thought about that since I was a kid. But yeah, you're talking about that. Just thought that to me, glad.

Bill McGeeney: 24:57

I could help this show. It does the same thing. Leah does the same thing. Where? Where people are walking around with their oil lamps or they walk around at night without light how about that?

Lya Osborn: 25:10

and they don't trip and fall and, you know, get murdered, which is always a good thing, yeah, and you know, when you think about the classic, like noir film, right, you know you've got music, it's moody. You know there's a person in the shadows, right, and it's because you can't see their face that there's this air of danger. That is all about contrast. That's not about night, right, that's actually about light, creating the sharper contrast between light and shadow. And because the muscles in our eye take time to adjust, like that's where the sense of danger is not the muscles in our eye take time to adjust, like that's where the sense of danger is not the darkness. Because we're so adaptable, right, give us like five minutes in a pitch black room and we're going to start to orient ourselves. But it is like those films, and you know, it's all about the inability to distinguish between what's in the light and what's in the dark.

Ken Walczak: 26:03

That's an excellent point, funny you should mention that, actually, I went to film school, that's what I was studying.

Ken Walczak: 26:09

And there's a thing called day for night. For example, if you want to shoot, to simulate like you don't have the budget or whatever to shoot in nighttime, you can do what's called day for night, and that's exactly what you do. People say like, oh, don't you have to dim down or or smooth out. They're like no, actually, when you shoot day for night, what you do is you just put a dark blue filter on it and you use the same contrast you'd have in daytime and you get that film noir quality. So you're just, you're just underexposing a little bit. So you're right, it is actually about, like the noir thing, for example, is is about contrast. It's's not about you know, you know just what you're saying about Franklin. You know where people's eyes can easily adjust. If you gave them the chance to. You know, moonlight would be more than enough to navigate and they had to right.

Bill McGeeney: 26:52

I mean, that's what you had. You had little oil lamp that's not giving out much light and the moon is, you know, it's going to be the brightest thing out there. Josh, you, you experienced any of this. I feel like, as a photographer, you have to have an input here yes, mine the vote, I tell you.

Josh Dury: 27:06

When you mentioned that bill, the first film that come to mind was a documentary film I studied during my degree and it was called una noche con las estrellas by patricio guzman and it was based over in the atacama desert in chile and it was just seeing this beautiful narrative constructed of these, as we can all imagine as astronomers these beautiful dark sky, time lapses, the connection between culture, history and science, with ambient string music, that kind of mystery again, as Leah said just now, that that connection, that emotional response, and you know, just seeing how that links up with especially projects out there like Alma and Paranal, just to name a couple, and it inspired me watching that documentary. I know like some parts went more deeper into the Pinochet case and the connection of the lands there, but for me it was just understanding that established connection with science in such a beautiful part of the world for observation.

Bill McGeeney: 28:08

Yeah, well put. Well, let's veer away from the fun stuff and get into a very interesting article, and this one has to be the best one of the month. So for a couple of years, the Acosta Bridge in Jacksonville, florida, has utilized themed coloring lighting for different holidays or days of significance. As you will see, politics has apparently spilled over into the realm of intense aesthetic light pollution, even creating a bit of a gamemanship. Governor Ron DeSantis the same governor that brought you such high-minded legislation like HB 837, a law which eliminated an avenue of lawsuits against apartment complexes provided that they have all-night lighting to their parking lots, porches and walkway areas DeSantis preempted Jacksonville's lighting of its bridges to celebrate any kind of minority activism, and that would also include events such as, say, pride Month or lighting up for the new holiday of Juneteenth. Juneteenth, for those of you not in the US, is a holiday celebrating the end to slavery. Rather, per the Florida Department of Transportation, the decorative lighting on state bridges for 2024, for the summer, beginning from Memorial Day all the way out through Labor Day, will be red, white and blue. So we're not going to have any other decorative lighting on there, it's just going to be red, white and blue, otherwise known and, honestly, you can't make this up as freedom lighting for the freedom summer in Florida. For you at home who have never seen bridges in Jacksonville, like myself, the Main Street Bridge appears bathed in blue light and the adjacent Acosta Bridge, the one that this story really focuses on, has bright programmable LEDs that strive to create symmetrical shimmer off of the St John's River.

Bill McGeeney: 29:52

But the story doesn't end there. Some people didn't just sit on their hands. A man named Matt McAllister, while on a honeymoon in Germany with his husband, got wind of the news. He reached out to a CEO friend who offered up $1,500 to purchase high-intensity flashlights. Mcallister phone theater production friends to obtain specialized lighting gels to color coordinate pride colors. And then McAllister ended up rallying 70 people to walk to key points of the Main Street Bridge, which, among other things, enabled the light beam to enter and reflect off of the water more prominently. The end result of the protest left the Acosta Bridge lit up in bands of red, white and blue, while the already lit blue Main Street Bridge was now striped with the colors of the rainbow on its railings to the water. This was topped off by and I love this quote that McAllister gave to advocate, I would think the DeSantis administration ought to be handing us an award for the first mass example of freedom in Freedom Summer. This is not the first time the state of Florida has attempted to shut down the bridge's color scheme. The state put the kibosh on Jacksonville's attempt in 2021 to utilize rainbow lighting, allowing the lights to burn for only one day.

Bill McGeeney: 31:01

And before I open this one up, I also want to touch on this other one, and this has been in past episodes, but Ben Davis of Illuminate San Francisco, a nonprofit, has done amazing things like install art displays made up of very bright all-night lights in parks and blasting giant all-night laser beams above Market Street in San Francisco. He is sitting at $10.5 million of the 11 million donations he's looking to gather to fix up and modernize the bridge lighting for the Bay Bridge in early 2025. If you haven't seen that, it's going to be much brighter and much more, I guess contrasty that's probably the best way to put it. And, of course, another great quote. We got two really good quotes here Per Ben Davis. I feel like there's a hole in a night sky, and there has been for the past year. Some might say the opposite, ben, but what do we make of these stories. I'm not going to debate whether the media got it right and how they covered the Jacksonville story, but I am curious about thoughts and perspectives on these stories.

Ken Walczak: 32:00

I'd be happy to start jumping in. Yeah, jump in, ken. Oh yeah, I just find that bridge lighting is one of those things that I think what happens is it's a, it's a natural go-to for for people trying to do a display of lighting because you think about a bridge is going to spam something that is unlit. So if you have a gaudy display of lights on a building, it's within a skyline or other buildings are around it. Bridges, by their nature, are obviously separated from everything else. So you know, you can make a flashy display and unfortunately, that's also the reason why they are that it's going to cause the most maybe environmentalist impacts, because you light a bridge and it's usually over a waterway and those waterways are ecosystems and those ecosystems are dependent on, on darkness. When it comes to you know their, their natural, you know habitat and it's it's just sort of gives. It says, hey, we're the ones who are saying we need to do something to. You know, have a showy display where it's like well, maybe that's not the right place to do it. And I just want to give one example.

Ken Walczak: 33:06

So the the last artificial light at night conference was in calgary in the last august and I'd never been to calgary before, and one of you know, we were taking a walk downtown at night and it was beautiful, and we crossed the peace bridge, which is an amazing design. It's a san diego yeah, calatrava bridge that they obviously wanted to invest a lot of money in, and because it's it's, it's a gem and and but the the lighting in it was disastrous. It was so bright and over lit. And here's the thing you're crossing a bridge. You have this beautiful view of downtown because you know the bridge itself. If you've ever seen it as as a quite open and kind of mesh, like you know, you know you can see that, but you can't see a single thing because you're so blinded by the light when, when you're in the bridge, that you can't see the skyline. So it obviously defeats the purpose of you know what is that?

Bill McGeeney: 33:52

that's my and it's, it's a, it's a great part too. It's in if I'm thinking of the right bridge, right, and they even have a natural area. Not too, because of course, that's where you put natural areas. It's right around the brightest lights. I digress, leah, this is something that, like the story we have for the San Francisco, for Ben Davis, he's been trying to do this for a while and he does these ostentatious displays of light under the guise of art, and I guess what's to say what is and what isn't art?

Bill McGeeney: 34:19

I'm not an arbiter on that, but in my mind just putting up light doesn't feel like it's art, Although the way they're looking at doing a Bay bridge does look pretty interesting. It looks a lot more thought out than, say, like the Acosta bridge here, which literally has like a programmable led strip that you would get at like Walmart, maybe a little little bigger than that. But you know they didn't put a lot of time and effort in the thinking on that one. I guess is there a happy medium here between lights are on a bridge or expression, so is there a happy medium in how we have these and also protect everything that lives around it?

Lya Osborn: 34:54

I'd like to think so. I mean, I, I've thought about this, you know, actually, bridges specifically, quite a bit since graduating, because I worked on a little project proposing a lighting for a bridge in Paris. But you know, as Ken said, bridges are kind of irresistible to municipalities, I think, sometimes, who are hoping to, you know, revitalize the space, so, you know, kind of draw attention. I think it's just true that people enjoy spectacle, right, we and, and there's a sense of like, we, we gather together as community around spectacle, right, whether it's, I remember, as a kid, like when these, like you know, the, the giant water fountains that you'd see with, like the choreographed, you know, water, you have, anything that kind of catches you maybe a little bit by surprise, draws your attention. There's this sense of like, oh well, we want to create this because we're giving something to people, right, we're giving something to them to experience. And so, you know, I think lighting a bridge, as Ken said, can be irresistible, not only because it's a space that maybe to some feels empty or, you know, wasted opportunity, but also you've got this beautiful surface right of water to bounce light off of. And so, you know, on the one hand, like I, I personally, you know, don't? I think I've I've always felt like you know, especially when color LEDs started coming out.

Lya Osborn: 36:26

It was like people just went crazy. They're like, oh my God, we get every color now. We only had green and red to start out with. So there was this, you know, there is this, I think, kind of like initial running a little too far with it. Let's make everything multicolored and let's have them change all the time. I think we are coming down. We're coming now to the point where we're understanding that just because we can light it doesn't mean we should. Just because it can be color changing LEDs doesn't mean it has to be.

Lya Osborn: 36:54

I think, in this particular case, I was actually just chatting with this wonderful lighting designer named Nancy Clanton who I believe has spoken, you know, with dark sky folks quite a bit. So you know her work is work that I follow closely, but she has worked on bridges and she said that they will not light waterways because of the negative effects it has on, you know, the local ecology. But the fish, I believe. Let's see.

Lya Osborn: 37:21

Yeah, the rule really is you can light a bridge, but the light has to be contained on the bridge surface, right? So you're not pointing light into the water and honestly, there's no reason to right Like that surface of water is going to bounce light off. You don't need to point directly to it, right? That's just sort of the way that the eye works and I believe let's see it's in Colorado. I believe both Boulder and Denver have prohibited lighting waterways. Florida has lighting ordinances for areas where sea turtles are nesting that call for reduced trespass and sky glow along the beachfront. So there is more attention now, I think, to the impact of lighting that goes into the water.

Lya Osborn: 38:03

But what you were asking like a sweet spot. I think it might be too much to say we won't ever light a bridge, ever again, right? But if we're going to, we have to do it right. And you know, this proposal for you know, by Ben, you know, I think, again, it's coming from a good place, likely, right, it's trying to offer something to people. But I kind of like this contrast here. You know, $11 million to light a bridge versus what was it like? $1,500 to, like you know, do something scrappy. I kind of, I kind of like that contrast, because you can do a lot with light. It doesn't have to cost a ton of money to bring people together, right? And if that's the point, if ultimately that's the point, the question is how are we going about it?

Bill McGeeney: 38:50

Yeah, I really feel like bridge lighting is kind of like glass buildings. You know, everyone's build their glass towers. We all think they're nice because we like the symmetry and such, but I mean it's just this like a death trap for birds and we're killing birds off in incredible numbers. And you know, leah, what you're saying about the bridges. We had an article on here, dublin, with a mermation for the starlings, and it's because they're lighting the underside of the bridge. Once they turn that off, you know, the starlings start coming back. They started actually being deliberate on how they lit the bridge and the storming started to come back.

Bill McGeeney: 39:25

And I look here in Philly we have Boathouse Row, which is the iconic scene along the Schuylkill whenever you look up the city, and they just changed all lights over and they're very proud of the fact it was going to be on all night. I didn't understand who the hell's up at three in the morning that cares about it. Right, like, most people are out traveling, you know they're out going to where they need to go at. You know, like, up until like what? 1230, one, two, okay, but why do we have all night? You know, it just feels kind of I don't know excessive or pointless, or maybe there's no lighting control, maybe that's it. There's. Like it costs more money to have a control switch that says goes off at a time I don't know. It costs more money to have a control switch that says goes off at a time I don't know. But yeah, that's that's. They're very proud of that all night.

Bill McGeeney: 40:05

Well, I want to stay on this topic just a little bit, because we had a study come in from the journal of limnology which specifically set out to chart how much polarized light pollution occurred in a river spree's surface. In other words, the study set out to gauge how artificial light and light reflected off the river, with hopes to lay the foundation for future studies that could assess any ecological impacts that may occur. Per the study, if alum reaches the water's surface, this can induce polarized light that can mask natural polarization cues, which probably can become an ecological hazard for flying aquatic insects and other organisms sensitive to changes in polarized light. There's this other article from San Francisco. San Francisco always has good articles, this one staying in kind of in the art realm.

Bill McGeeney: 40:54

Did you guys hear about this laser beam in the sky? So apparently it was visible for upwards of 12 miles away from the source and it collected more than just insects. It collected the attention of a random biker who biked across the Golden Gate Bridge to actually investigate the laser. Per Mega Laser CEO Barrett Lyon. The company was testing a 400-watt laser to nowhere for use in an upcoming conference. So it's not just lights.

Lya Osborn: 41:21

Good to have laser beams, high-powered laser beams, going up into the sky I mean, if nothing else, that seems like something the faa might have been kind of upset about right well, they cleared it.

Bill McGeeney: 41:30

They cleared it at the faa yeah, there you go yeah, that was all clear, but you know it's. It's. The sacramento kings did that the year prior, when they actually made the playoffs. They had this purple light beam in the sky every time they won a game or something.

Bill McGeeney: 41:47

I don't know I guess it's been so long since the Kings have made the playoffs that they have to put light beams in the sky. And then, lastly, we have Chris Herring, the creative director for Portland Winter Light Festival. He has a vision for the future, and Herring asks where will we be in 2045? This came through on one of my emails and I just had to take a look at it because this was too much not to grasp. Per Portland Winter Light Festival's 2025 theme page, my mind sees pillars, that sense of presence, and guides them down pathways with a colorful, pulsing glow. Buildings, shimmering and dazzling pastels, videos and images. Constructed artworks skinned in shiny metallics over leds that look as beautiful in a daytime as night. Wayfinding towers that can be seen block to block. That's just a little inspiration for dark sky advocates out there. Does any of your vision include for 2024, buildings, shimmering and dazzling pastels? Anyone?

Josh Dury: 42:46

I've got one comment in relation to the recent aurora storm that we had on may 10th. It's really interesting. Here in the uk we have hotels which are called premier in hotels and they so happen to have like purple lighting as some of their exterior lighting, and so you see these images coming in on bbc news of so-called like enthusiasts wanting to see the northern lights. It's completely overcast but the sky glare of this purple glow from these premier in hotels is mistaken, other people thinking it's the aurora, when in fact it's not. So it's very misleading information how that's communicated. It might be worth making a comment as well in relation to bridges. A comment I thought about just then is again, like you know, as ken and leah said, about the impacts to local ecology around. You know the beauty of like tourism attractions, but also, again, looking at you know the wavelengths of these colors of light and how that impacts various examples of nocturnal but also marine species.

Josh Dury: 43:49

Here in the city of bristol, near to where I'm based, is a particular bridge which is known as the clifton suspension bridge. So it's built by ss barbara brunel back in the day and what is done now what I think is great is, if you walk along this bridge the lighting is shielded and you know it's when I was talking to bob mizen back in the day from campaign for dark skies cfds that you know to see a really good example of lighting installation where you know what the change from halogen to led lighting less light was being used, but it was being directed in the purpose for which it was needed. So to see that in action and, you know, at night to see it as an attraction, but being used with minimal lighting I thought, wow, that was really cool to see that and which bridge was that again?

Josh Dury: 44:38

this is called the clifton suspension bridge bill. So it's in bristol and it's like it's one of the leading attractions really here in bristol the adopted lighting practice. You know. Each of the lights is shielded for its intended purpose. So when bob was telling me this, you know, coming into dark sky advocacy, I thought that's a really leading project for you know that is.

Bill McGeeney: 45:00

That is great, that is really good. It's good to have good examples. I mean, that's what Leo was saying earlier. I have good examples and you know you can point to, and Ken was trying to get that in one of their. How many natural lands do you guys have in Illinois? Not for me to be snide here, ken, but I mean like is Illinois really that royal of a state?

Ken Walczak: 45:21

oh yeah, when you get out of chicago, yeah, but actually we don't have many natural. Oh, you said natural or national, or natural natural, but yeah, actually we have quite a lot of holdings for the illinois uh department natural resources, rivers, a lot of rivers, a lot of uh forests. The bottom quarter of the state is almost all shawnee national forests. Oh, wow, wow, yeah, very cool. I I actually just learned from a friend who quarter of the state is almost all Shawnee National Forests. Oh, wow, wow, very cool.

Lya Osborn: 45:39

And Ken I actually just learned from a friend who lives in Illinois the other day about remnant prairies, which are prairie lands that have been unchanged for thousands and thousands of years, that are still preserved. I mean, they sound magnificent. That was the first time I'd learned about this. I was like, all right, I got to get to Illinois and that was the first time I'd learned about this.

Bill McGeeney: 46:00

I was like, all right, I got to get to Illinois, and is that because they used to have it used to be a forested prairie, right? Or is it all grassy at that point, all prairie?

Lya Osborn: 46:07

grasslands, but extremely complex biodiversity.

Bill McGeeney: 46:13

I have to add that to the list.

Lya Osborn: 46:15

Yeah, all these species kind of integrated at the root level. Yeah, this beautiful relationship.

Bill McGeeney: 46:20

Wow, things I didn't know. This is great. I love it. Thank you, leah.

Lya Osborn: 46:25

If you don't mind, I did want to say because I'd love to hear Ken's vision for 2045 as well. But when I heard this vision the colorful, pulsing glows, building, shimmering, you know, artworks, all shiny and I was like this is basically somebody's vision for lighting in 2024. And they kind of realized it right, like this, we're already seeing this. I don't see how you know this. This takes us any further and I will say, you know, something that I've really come to appreciate being in dialogue around with, you know, my colleagues at light justice and lighting designers, and just talking with community members who are, and you know, at the adler planetarium, for instance, these teams and the yolo program, who are like looking at the way that light attacks them and their families. I gotta say, like I think my vision for light in 2045 is one where we just, like people, have this sense of what their relationship to light is like, go all the way back to just that fundamental level, like we're so good at adapting to things, right, and there's so much about vision and light and darkness that feels really immaterial and therefore kind of hard to understand. But just as we've made so much headway in understanding nutrition, for instance, understanding air quality understanding. You know the importance of clean water.

Lya Osborn: 47:47

I would love I have an almost six-year-old right now. I would love for him to grow up with the sense of what is light. How do I feel about it? You know where is it coming from? What is, you know what? What is a source of awe and inspiration from lighting at night that I see in the dark? You know in the sky, what brings me that same sense of joy and awe during the day, sunrise or sunset? You know, I think just going back and and kind of reframing even our relationship with light as humans is where I want to see us in 2045. And I think from there, you know the technology, how we apply it. All of that, I think, will be informed in a totally different way.

Bill McGeeney: 48:29

Yeah, you don't want to extinguish it, you want to have it actually enhance it, right?

Lya Osborn: 48:34

Right, yeah, know how to use it.

Ken Walczak: 48:35

Right, yeah, know how to use it. I think that quite often a new technology, when it's introduced in a society, the first impulse is for more, more, more. And then it takes some time. And, by the way, I'm saying lighting is a relatively new technology.

Ken Walczak: 48:49

It's only been less than a century and a half or so We've actually really been using light at night in the way that we do, and it's we're still, I think, in that phase of saying like, oh well, kind of like what this statement is saying about 2045, it's like that is like if we just have more of this, then you know. But I think it takes a kind of maturing of understanding that, oh, not all technology is endless and needed endlessly. It's about how you do it, you know. So I think I think you're right, leah. I'm sorry I keep saying that, you know it's. We look for a better future where we see the possibilities, not the just endless use.

Bill McGeeney: 49:31

Well, we have this next set of articles here which kind of hit on that topic we're talking about right now. We know street lighting has a psychological effect on everyone who's out there using street lighting right, regardless of how effective it can do certain things that it claims to do. I'm not sure if many of you have been following this, but we've talked about this on the show plenty of times. The parts of Europe that are actually dimming their lights due to the energy crisis from Russia's ongoing war in the Ukraine. It's like communities like Bordeaux, which turn off about 57% of their street lights between 1 to 5 am. Gateshead, britain, which the council dims their light 75% from 12 to 5.30. And that actually prompted concern from residents that petitioned the council in hopes of bringing back the lights. For comparison, there's Newcastle City, say, reduces their street brightness by 25%. Cumberland reduces by 50%. Conversely, there's another article on the BBC that the city of Dorset, which actually brought up something that's not uncommon either, where people rebel against the new LED lights because they're both too bright and it creates too much trespass. It's just too harsh.

Bill McGeeney: 50:43

Before I open this one up to you guys, I'm throwing in an additional piece, which is a study from Urban Design that looked at how individuals felt comfortable at night, and I'm definitely not going to vouch for the methodology of study.

Bill McGeeney: 50:57

The end result though I think it's probably unsurprising Now, the end result is that being, if night really didn't exist, people simply wouldn't experience discomfort. The study looked at luminance, which and please, anyone who wants to correct me here, correct me is the emitting brightness of a light source versus the luminance which is the end target of that light source. So, to take it one step further, light shines with luminance, whereby a sidewalk will collect the luminance. I'm not going to win a prize for that one, but you guys kind of get the idea. So the study suggested to enhance ambient surfaces and surroundings to reflect more light from the light source in order to enhance the luminance, not the illuminance of the area which, per the study, brings the overall perceived lighting levels closest to daytime. This could be done by utilizing, say, reflectors or bright color wall paint stuff like that, to gauge optimal pedestrian comfort while walking the streets at night.

Bill McGeeney: 51:56

So, leah, I'm going to bounce over you Cause you have the most you you have like light. Justice works with this. Is there like a sweet spot for streetlight brightness? Is everyone absolutely different on it? Or should we just turn like just eliminate nighttime in cities and just make it all daytime, because that's how we feel most comfortable walking the streets?

Lya Osborn: 52:16

Yes, let's spend night. It's not safe. No, I, you know it's okay. I want to just start by saying, you know, the illumination of streets is an area that is not my, it's not my expertise, but there is this long history and really rigorous. But there is this long history and really rigorous, rigorous background research around safe and good roadway lighting. In fact, there is this year's street and area lighting conferences coming up in Atlanta in September. Yeah, I mean you know, but so there are, there are standards, Right, and and this is technology I would say that this is an area that I'm not worried that there's like some lag right when we're falling behind in a study.

Lya Osborn: 53:06

I think what this story kind of brings up is more the impact on pedestrians, right, and on perceived safety and the perception of safety, and that is a lot more complicated right, and on perceived safety and the perception of safety, and that is a lot more complicated right, Because that's something you can't just whip out. You know this spectrometer or something and just measure like, how safe does a person feel while walking here? And again, that's where you know, as Ken also said, people often don't have the language to describe what they're feeling and what's impacting them. One project that I really love to bring up when it comes to the sense of safety at night and on the streets is Signal Station North in Baltimore, which Flux Studio, a lighting design firm, worked on, and they collaborated with a local nonprofit and local community group and organizers to bring in a community in the signal station north area to do these light walks, these night walks, where, you know, they handed people like pamphlets, informational pamphlets, gave them a sense of like, oh, as you're walking through from this road to that road, you're crossing this intersection or you're entering into this part of the neighborhood, how do you give language to what you're feeling? Right, and it's not just like a lighting designer coming in and saying like this is what you see, but like, how do you actually feel? And you know what, what a lot of these people seem to have been expressing, you know, in response to the dim lights, is this is not what we're used to, Right? I'm not sure, Is this good? How? How is this impact?

Lya Osborn: 54:43

And you know, rather than saying like, oh, you know, this is unsafe, there's just sense of maybe unsubtle unsettlement and a lack of, maybe, control over the decisions that are being made. So you know, Signal Station North, for instance, giving people the chance to walk around at night, you know, being given language and then given opportunities to talk with each other and feel like they were informing some of the decisions in these spaces. I mean that really ends up going far, you know, just having you know in response to maybe these concerns having some night walks. You know having some community forums giving people language, for maybe there are certain intersections where actually there could be more light and that's that could be prioritized right, Because maybe there's more traffic there or some nature of the intersection makes it makes it maybe feel more disorienting if people are crossing at night. So I think there are solutions here, right, but I'm not really in camp. Let's eradicate night.

Bill McGeeney: 55:44

Ken, I see you over there chomping at the bit.

Ken Walczak: 55:47

I was going to comment on the Rome study, where it was a perceptive study and a perception of people's experience and that's where we get most of the and you can't discount that. You can't just say, oh, the science tells you otherwise. You have to be obviously sensitive to what people experience and in the lighting, and I so I appreciate the researchers approach because you know they even point out in their paper that there there are very few studies looking at people's perception of, as a pedestrian, versus lighting. That's based on cars. And then that's the thing that always gets me is that, um, a lot of roadway lighting is saying like, well, we have to do this for the cars, and then, when it comes to that interaction between pedestrians and cars, that's where we have to have most lighting because you know that's where these two are going to cross. So I appreciate that's the, the study on that that they're saying, well, what is the experiential, you know importance or effect of the lighting, for and they even point out, since this was done in Rome you know, tourism is a very important thing to them and so there was.

Ken Walczak: 56:50

They're asking folks like, did they see the buildings or did they?

Ken Walczak: 56:53

Could they see other people's faces or could they actually see what they're, the surface they're walking on well enough that they felt comfortable in that space. And one of the things that they did show is that the, by the way, their results were a little thin on the strength of the outcomes, but in general, and by the way they did do this all the high pressure sodium lights keep that in mind so there was a little chance for maybe tuning and well directing that light because, as we know, high pressure sodiums and this little drop le uh, drop cobra heads or so are gonna be kind of going everywhere. So this mainly, I think, what they, what they took away. One of the things was that people's, the people liked being able to see the, the sights, in a sense, the, the vision of, not as it wasn't just the face to face, you know, seeing another person's face or seeing the ground, but one of the strongest reactions was is the lighting good for actually seeing the sites, in a sense, at night? So so yeah, I think they did have some interesting takeaways in that.

Bill McGeeney: 57:54

You point out, to the high pressure sodiums, like the new LEDs that we're seeing pop up around here in a warmer lighting. In my mind they're much better. You can see a lot better with them. It's not like the high-pressure sodiums. It doesn't feel like you can make stuff out as well as you can with some of these 22, 2700 LEDs that they put in streetlights.

Ken Walczak: 58:19

But maybe that's just my perspective on, I mean, the color rendering index of modern lighting is so much better, which means you know you can distinguish colors and actually that helps you have a better sort of spatial perception as well, being able to distinguish colors. Yeah, hyper sodium has a very it's hard to sell. Tell that red you know car, or that red you know facade of a building compared to a blue one sometimes. Yeah, it has a natural we have. The technology we have today is so good, just use it right.

Bill McGeeney: 58:48

Well, you just have to educate, right? That's really what Leah is talking about. You have to give people the lexicon and the understanding to be able to framework, be able to to, you know, actually push for those a better tomorrow, right, to make it sound a little pollyannish yeah, especially in relation to crime as well.

Josh Dury: 59:08

You know I've talked to various delegates as well about the sort of public influence of what amount of lighting is associated with crime at night. And again, like you know, as we we've discussed in current examples down in Dorset, up in Newcastle, in different areas of population density as well, where you have those increased or even decreased levels of lighting, you know, suddenly to have this change of we are going to dim our lights from 12 through to 5.30am For some communities, as we've discussed, yes, that's going to be a bit of a total shock. People are surrounded by light nearly 24 7. So, you know, for communities which are in much more like lower scale, portal scale indexes, you know you're going to be much more aware of your surroundings at that time, less people about as well, and so, again, it's that sort of communication aspect, isn't it which needs to be addressed when it comes to changing levels of lighting?

Josh Dury: 1:00:02

And you know, as we've looked into with crime as well, like, does it really influence? Is it influenced by lighting? And again, you know it's just trying to look at those different strategies as to how it could be put forward like, yes, motion detection has been one example, but from the perspective as an astrophotographer, you don't want to see lights going off every you know couple of 30 minutes or so. So, yeah, it'd be an interesting way of looking at things josh you, you mentioned you mentioned lights and astrophotography.

Bill McGeeney: 1:00:32

I have to bring this up because right before the call I saw a facebook group that I'm part of. Someone posted a picture and it was they're trying to do photography. It looked like a, I guess a RV campground parking. I don't, I can't tell the difference between parking lots and campgrounds for RVs because they just park in what looks like parking lots to me. But it had had high tower lights all over the place shining down on it and I was thinking like why would you go? Like, are you voluntarily paying to camp? Quote unquote there, like what?

Bill McGeeney: 1:01:04

is that like a truck stop, like what are you doing there? And there's all these art fees.

Josh Dury: 1:01:08

But it's what. It's insane. Um, even for a branch of supermarkets over here in the uk. There's one called morrison's and locally I've been campaigning because of the brightness of the exterior logo lighting on the outside of the building and, as we've already discussed in the session today, the amount of sort of public nuisance lighting that is generated has become somewhat of a problem. So again, it's just trying to address those simple matters Is light being used, where and where needed? Is it the right amount of light? Which direction is it facing? And again, it's, you know, in relation to your story, bill, it's, like you know, inappropriate lighting being used for different causes. Uh, do you find that interesting? Especially when you're photographing at night, you just seem to have much more of an awareness when you're seeing it within the greater picture and where it's being used. It almost makes you wish you could just turn off that switch, as it were. And color differences as well.

Lya Osborn: 1:02:04

Maybe that's the vision for 2045.

Bill McGeeney: 1:02:07

There we go, there we go.

Lya Osborn: 1:02:10

I was going to just hop on Josh in bringing up light trespass, right, I think that with logos and with either the lighting of building facades, I mean, that can be a huge issue too. You know, we're not just looking at street lighting, but when you have a giant, you know what is it made of, like plexi or something, and it's just illuminated from within, omnidirectional, right. It's going everywhere. There is so much light trespass coming from there and that is one major factor. I think to like one term that's really important when we're considering what light is doing and where it's misapplied is you know how much light trespass is there is? Whatever that source of light is, is it even considering where the light's directed and you know if it isn't considering that it should be?

Josh Dury: 1:02:59

Even for billboards as well. I've noticed, and you know if it isn't considering that it should be Even for billboards as well. I've noticed that, you know, especially around the Bristol and surrounds area for me, and you just see these portable billboards outside of, whether it be hotels or, you know, residential roads, and a part of me does feel very sorry for the residents which are there which have these beaming led lights shining into their property 24 7, like you know. I know we guys respond on melatonin for our sleep cycles and I know I'm lucky where I am, but for these guys, you know, it doesn't make me think. What impact is that having for them?

Bill McGeeney: 1:03:31

that's. That's a great point. I we actually had a led board not to get too far off because I wouldn't get into our ecology segment here, but we had an LED board right down a major road that was set up by the Community Development Corporation, trying to bring business and people into the area for festivals et cetera, et cetera. At night it was the same brightness as daytime, which, going down a road into an intersection that has like a three-way intersection, it was blinding. So I emailed them and said, hey, you guys, you know, dim it down, like every other led billboard in this area has like a nighttime setting. That's very reasonable. They dimmed it down but it was kind of like still on. They dimmed it down like two notches and I was like I've been going back and forth these guys, it's not going anywhere. Like I'm not really sure what the disconnect is here, but evidently you know like it is what it is right now. But yeah, I don't know.

Ken Walczak: 1:04:23

Well, if you want, Bill, there are standards for light output for for illuminated billboards. So yeah, we'll, we'll give you those, and then you can go do them.

Bill McGeeney: 1:04:32

I didn't want to get too technical with them but I I maybe I will. But thank you, shoot those over to me, I'll take care of it. Well, let's get into ecology. I'm going to actually push through some of these ecologies and we can come back and talk about them in a second, but I want to get through these, since we're kind of running a little long in the tooth at the moment. So scientists in Taiwan.

Bill McGeeney: 1:04:52

They identified the light pollution from tourist side fixtures and divers could present problems for nighttime coral spawning. There's a study in scientific reports where bat species richness was plotted along an urban-rural gradient and noting a steep drop-off once you got in the urban zones. The study looked specifically at how sound and light pollution affected bats and it also utilized software to identify bat classifications based on their calls. I guess kind of like a Merlin software for birds. While most bats appear to be avoidant of light and sound, a subset was found that would utilize light to its benefit for foraging. From environmental entomology, the diurnal praying mantis may have trouble foraging in the dark and that is because they rely on detecting motion in their environment. Mantis did quite well under full lighting, but dropped down to a 50% success rate under moonlit skies and a 0% in the dark. The study attempted to provide greater insight into the insect's hunting prowess among conditions including light pollution. Quite an interesting study out of the Journal of Experimental Biology.

Bill McGeeney: 1:05:57

Many of you know mayflies to be generally the bellwethers of water quality. Here in Pennsylvania well, at least parts of central Pennsylvania at least it's not odd to see mayflies swarm at a street lamp early in the summer. And while adults may be heavily attracted to the bluer spectrums of light, larvae actually are quite avoidant, and researchers speculate that they're just trying to avoid being seen by predators, which actually forces them to move away from shallow water into deeper areas that could have less light trespass on them. So a study specifically looked at light approaching the 400 nanometer spectrum range shorter wavelength lighting sitting in a blue-violet color range and actually larvae tended to push inward where there was less of that light affecting them.

Bill McGeeney: 1:06:41

Back in Germany, a study in communications biology looked at the impact of specialized shield road lighting versus conventional 4,000 Kelvin LED light fixtures. There are a number of things to note here. First of all, they did not go into much detail on the construction and design of the shielding. It should be noted that they did test the shielding at various color temperatures, found it to collect less insects than unshielded light sources. The researchers also tested to see if simply reducing light levels of unshielded lighting would make a difference, with the result being that shielded lighting still retained a sizable advantage. The shielding in this case was specifically targeted to maintain illumination on desired path road areas, not to extend light trespass to adjacent services like fields and trees, and further to that, it was a solution targeted for ecological areas of importance.

Bill McGeeney: 1:07:31

And I just wanted to mention this real fast. North County Public Radio had a little tidbit on birds. First off, someone came up with a bird feeder that could use suction cups and attach to windows. I don't know what in God's name that person was thinking when they did that. And then, second, we had a past guest, jeff Bueller, and he hinted to this, and is that in relative dark areas, lit communities and lit areas serve kind of as calls in the night to birds. They actually have an outsized impact on attracting birds, not just cities, but say, if you're in an area that is relatively dark. So another point to why birds are just they're just kind of like magnetically attracted to light at night. Do you guys want to talk about any of these ecological pieces here.

Ken Walczak: 1:08:20

I was going to mention that, the that study that was done about the lights in Germany where they tested on the attraction of insects. Those are some researchers who approached a lighting design company you probably know Celux. Celux worked with them to design just based on the science, which is great. I mean. They said like all right, well, tell us how do we design a light that is insect friendly, doesn't impact negatively the ecosystem of these insects? And they did an amazing job.

Ken Walczak: 1:08:49

I don't think it's commercially available yet, but the initial results they had where they did it in some controlled areas and then also in, I think, three different towns really showed a huge improvement on how insects are attracted to light. And so I think it's a great idea that you're combining the research with the design, and I applaud the company that's doing this, because if more people do this and you have more things like, more products like this that are available, then people will start using them, and once we start using them, then we start getting that 2045 that we want ken, how would this translate over to how humans perceive the light?

Bill McGeeney: 1:09:29

I didn't find anything in the study about like a human impact which makes sense, because they're not really looking at people personally, just seeing seeing the way these lights are used and the way they're designed and how they they're, it's, there's.

Ken Walczak: 1:09:42

There's no Leo, no, there's no type one or type two on this they're. They're very tart, they're very literally, you cannot see the fixture, you cannot see the luminaire. Say, from your, your experience of walking down the path, all you see is the illuminated path. Your experience of walking down the path, all you see is the illuminated path. And that's the key to the bug attraction. The insect attraction is because insects will see from quite a distance the bright light and they'll be attracted to it and they'll fly toward it. For bug I forgot what they call it photo, attractive, photo insects. But since they're so shielded, the only way the insect will be attracted to it would be if they're underneath the light. So you're not pulling all the insects from around the environment, you're limiting how much it's going to affect anything beyond it. So for a pedestrian or for a human, it's great. The lighting is only illuminating what you need. And then for the ecological aspects, obviously it shows the benefit.

Bill McGeeney: 1:10:38

What you need. And then for the ecological aspects, obviously it's. It shows the benefit you have to. I have to pay attention to this as it comes forth, as it becomes more studied and you start maybe seeing an actual you know case of this out there in the wild. I would. I would just be concerned personally, cause I see certain stories come through that people want to see the light Like that seems to be a thing and correct me where I'm wrong, please. I knew you guys and maybe that's just part of leah's education piece there.

Lya Osborn: 1:11:02

Maybe that's just because they don't know any better and I don't know yeah, uh, you know it's funny hearing ken just describe the, the shielding, the very particular shielding for bugs. It's funny because you know a bug is attracted. They're not attracted to any old light, right, I mean they are, but what they're programmed to be attracted to are, you know, is light coming from the sky at night, right there for the meeting patterns and for you know their orientation, they're, they're programmed to look for these signals and light sources in the natural world, like actual sources of light, are limited to the moon, the stars, the sun. You know fire, where the lightning, and you know bioluminescent things, right, those are the actual sources. That's where you see light coming from something and you're you know what you were describing earlier, which I thought you actually did a great job. Um, the difference between luminance and illuminance, right, luminance is the amount of light coming from something and illuminance is the, the light that's hitting a surface, right? So, whether you know what, whatever creature we are, you know generally our perception of light is what the light is bouncing to our eyes from.

Lya Osborn: 1:12:17

We all know we're not supposed to look at the sun, right, like you don't look at the source, but we are programmed, I think, because the field of lighting is still relatively, or lighting technology is still relatively new.

Lya Osborn: 1:12:28

You know, we've been programmed, I think, to expect that we'll be able to see the source right. We want to find it Like where is that coming from? In actual practice, though, you know, say, if you're at a restaurant and there's like a light somewhere, like if it's, if you can see the source and it's pointing right at you and it's a source of glare, we automatically kind of like turn away, right, we shift our bodies, we adjust, so we're not getting that direct light. So I think, you know, it's this curious matter of perception. I think what we actually want is illuminated surfaces, as Ken said, you know, like seeing where we're going. But we've been really programmed by the technology that has existed until now for these cues. You know we look for these cues, and when those cues aren't there, it's not that we still need them, but we miss them because we've been, we've gotten used to them.

Bill McGeeney: 1:13:15

Oh okay, Leah, that makes perfect sense. On the cues I like the way you put that. That was a very simplistic, thoughtful approach to not just us, but like how everything relies on simple cues. I think that's a good way to end it here for the first half of the show. So let's end it here today. We'll pick up the rest of the show in two weeks and, as always, I want to thank my panel of guests today Leah Osborne, Josh Dury and Colin Walchek. Ken, when you first came on, I butchered your name and I said something like Ken Walczak or something, and your response was like so simplistic, so naturally, like, yeah, or someone say Ken Walchek.

Ken Walczak: 1:13:51

It's all right. Either way, it's all right.

Bill McGeeney: 1:13:57

As a reminder, you're at home. Home. You can find light pollution news on instagram, facebook, linkedin and, of course, you can find all of the articles in today's show over at lightpollutionnewscom. Included over at the site is a new running ecology tab that lists all the ecology related articles, like the ones we just did in aggregate from this show and past shows. Find that over at lightpollutionnewscom slash research, slash ecology. And of course, we've recorded the show one fell swoop at the end of the month this time is on June 23rd due to the Independence Day holiday coming up in the US. Once more, I'm your host, bill McGeaney. Thank you for listening. Remember to only shine the light where it's needed.