Leaders with Leverage: Adopting a Negotiator Mindset

Unleashing Your Worth with Maki Moussavi

• Susie Tomenchok • Episode 101

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Ever felt the struggle of asserting your self-worth? Mindset coach and team facilitator Maki Moussavi joins me to dive deep into unleashing your true value. We explore how high achievers can break free from self-imposed limitations and embrace their full potential. Discover powerful strategies to boost your self-worth, overcome fear, and make decisions with confidence. Learn how to recognize and address the internal fears that can hinder your personal and professional growth, and begin advocating for yourself more effectively in negotiations and beyond.

In this episode, we talk about the following:
1. Mindset and self-worth for high achievers.
2. Overcoming self-limiting beliefs and behaviors.
3. Tips for developing a stronger mindset.

Connect with Maki:
https://www.makimoussavi.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maki-moussavi/

The Negotiator's Toolbox is now available!
Get $100 off when you use code TOOLBOX at www.negotiationlove.com

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Speaker 1:

What is the most powerful question?

Speaker 2:

you can ask yourself Keep listening, and we'll tell you in a minute.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Leaders with Leverage podcast. I'm your host and negotiation expert, suzy Tomichuk. It's time to be your own advocate and confidently navigate what you want out of your career, not simply the next role or additional compensation. I wanna show you that negotiation happens every day in plain sight, so you need to be ready to opt in and say yes with confidence. This happens by adopting a negotiator's mindset, and I'll show you how, together with other business leaders, you'll learn the essential skills and shifts in mindset you need to know. You will be empowered to naturally advocate for yourself and grow your professional skills, and while you're practicing along the way, you'll increase your confidence and gain respect, all while you're growing into that future leader you're poised to be, and when you face a high stakes situation, you're ready, no matter how high those stakes are.

Speaker 1:

So let's do it. Let's lead with leverage. Hey, welcome, I'm so glad you're here. I am so excited today because I have a really good friend of mine, mackie, who is a. Well, I'm going to let you tell us you're a mindset coach and team facilitator. Tell us a little bit about what that means before we get into the content.

Speaker 2:

Sure, yeah, so I. My specialty is if you are a high achieving type, a sort of personality that's very productive and achievement oriented. There's a lot of baggage that comes with that. You're very conditioned to think about success. A certain way you can become obsessed with proving your value. You can put the wrong things kind of at the top of your list to be concerned about and it's really hard to actually take a step back from that when it's been the way you've operated for years and years and it's getting you results professionally. But you know sometimes the things that get you those results professionally. You're not really tuned into what they're doing to personally, and my specialty area is helping people basically decondition from these outdated paradigms that drive you and help you redefine the way that you view your life, success, what it means to be successful and to bring in that balance of you know who are you as a human being in the midst of that, not just always sacrificing at the professional altar at any cost to have that, you know, shiny gold object, I guess.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh my gosh. It's so interesting because I want to talk about deadlocks in negotiation and how you can get in like the other person doesn't want to move, doesn't want to budge, but when you are talking I'm like that can start here in our heads and we can get in our own way. When I say deadlocks for you, what does that mean?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, 100%. That happens right. So I think one of the easiest places for people to grasp this concept is I've worked quite a bit in like the real estate industry, for instance, and people in real estate are fed a pretty steady diet of like this is how you're successful. These are the things you need to do, and the agents who are struggling will say you know, I know what I need to do, but I can't seem to make myself do it Right, and so that that's a deadlock, because it's not that the path is not laid out before them, but there's some internal resistance or reason why they can't just do that thing. And I believe that that's actually a core thing that we miss a lot in when we are talking to people about trying something different or trying something that feels uncomfortable, like you know, in your world. That's negotiation and being an advocate for yourself. You may know what you need to do and feel completely unable to do it, and mindset is such a critical piece of that and getting out of your own way.

Speaker 1:

All right. So to me, this is negotiating with yourself. It's agreeing that you're going to move forward, like you said. But yet in the moment, like right before this happens to me, right before you think, well, this isn't the right time or I need to not push so hard. Or even in the moment going, oh, they already gave me that, so I'm not going to push for this other thing that I want. Right, it's these things in our head, right? Am I tracking with you?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. That's exactly what it is, and we don't necessarily understand when we make those excuses because they sound logical. Yeah, that really what's driving them is fear, and it's fear of some kind of outcome. And often people who are really success-oriented and achievement-oriented are very catastrophic thinkers, so they believe that if they say something wrong it's the end of everything, like I'm going to ruin my chances in this role. I'm not going to get promoted, no one. You know people are going to see me a certain way and that fear is so powerful that they use logic to overcome what they know they need to do, but it's in a way that basically keeps them stagnant and they're not really registering that the underlying factor is fear. It sounds like it makes sense to you, but it's actually fear that's in the driver's seat.

Speaker 3:

Oh my gosh, I have the perfect story about me and how I totally got in my way and then I'll bring something more rational to the table.

Speaker 1:

But I definitely want to tell you this story because it sounds so silly, but it really was a belief that I believe. So when we come back, I want you to think of Mackie's story of how you've gotten in your way, or somebody that you work with does so that people can kind of bring this concept to really understand it so they can see the application of it. So when we come back, we're going to share some stories. We'll be right back. Hey, susie, here, thought I'd pop in. I wanted to let you know I've been an executive coach for over a decade. I work with executives and they call me their silent partner because I help them increase their confidence when they're facing really difficult decisions. If you'd like to see if we're a good fit, head over to suzytomachukcom and fill out an application. I'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 1:

Okay, we're back, and I'm just laughing at myself, because this was a real story for me where I got in my own way and when I was in corporate and I was an executive, I was given a big office and my peer got the office. That was basically in the corner and mine wasn't in the corner and it was a big office that overlooked the mountains and it had a conference table and all the things and it was on executive row, so it was really an important and prestigious office. But my executive coach told me that I had to ask for the corner because, out of principle, like ask for the corner, because out of principle, like ask for the corner office, you know, because they didn't give it to you because I was the path of least resistance. But what's funny about this story for me is so I challenged myself, I didn't really care that it wasn't in the corner, but I knew my executive coach was right I had to ask for the corner office because they always gave it to Dan, they always would pass over Susie and so I had to go to my boss, who knew me so well that she was kind of like are you serious, this is something you're like really Because she'd known me for so long and I remember it took her a couple of days to come back, and all the things that went in my head this is my point was they were going to fire me for asking for a bigger office.

Speaker 1:

They're going to be mad at me, me for asking for a bigger office. They're going to be mad at me. They're going to think I am just so. They gave me an office and now she's asking for more. She's so selfish, so self-centered, and I just thought this was going to change their entire perception of me and that's all I could think about. And I was so worried that they were like you know what? This is the final straw. I'm just going to get rid of her. And it had nothing to do with that. You know, like they had just given this to me because they were investing in me. They wanted to show me that I was doing well, but I was able to make it feel like my last day could be tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

There's that catastrophic thinking, absolutely Like that's exactly what happens. That is how very I don't know why you know, otherwise very successful people tend to have like this very intense fear that they could lose everything at any given time. And even when it's, you know, reasonable to say like, hey, why is it like this? Or what's the situation? We don't expect to be valued appropriately. It's like not an expectation of ours to be valued appropriately, it's like not an expectation of ours to be valued appropriately.

Speaker 2:

And that's because you know I'll just make this point very quickly, because I don't think it's something people think about is there's a huge difference between being confident and having self-worth, and most really successful people have self-confidence but they don't actually have a solid foundation of self-worth, and so that is where all that fear comes from. It's like I'm going to say something and I could lose everything. It's a house of cards, whereas if you had a real solid foundation of self-worth, you'd be like they better step up. You know they better, they better be ready to recognize that we need to have this conversation and to approach it with more power than from a standpoint of being afraid of what the outcome might be.

Speaker 1:

Gosh, I know we're going to go through tips and I can't wait because I think I really need to understand how I shift this in me, but can you talk a little bit more about how do we build this up in us? Why is this?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So really, you know, the thing about self-confidence to think about is that we learn through repetition what we're really good at. So we start to feel more and more solid in what we're doing. And then we get feedback from other people that tell us hey, you're so good at this, and they start to pick you for that thing that you know you're good at. And so there's this outside validation loop. That's a part of confidence. It's not just about what you know. It's also about what other people are telling you.

Speaker 2:

Right, self-worth is more about having the conviction that when you say this thing, even if nobody else agrees with you, it doesn't move you at all, you're not concerned, you said it.

Speaker 2:

You're like I still believe in this, this is the thing, and you can't just flip a switch. So I want people to be gentle with themselves if they realize this is a challenge they have, but over time it's around how you process and manage the fear of saying something and the way that you talk to yourself when you're getting ready to say that thing, so that you aren't thinking I can't say that it's going to ruin everything, and instead you are shifting your perspective to say I have a right to say this and they have a right to respond how they're going to. But I have conviction that this is the right step to take and it really does take that kind of you got to flip the script in your head, you know, because the things that are happening in the background in your mind are running the show in ways that we don't even think about, because we're on autopilot most of the time.

Speaker 1:

Wow, that is so frightening in a way. And it's almost like you're also anticipating the response that you're going to get. It's almost like you get out of your head really quickly into the head of the other person to look at what you're about to say or the opinion you're going to have, and you don't have any right to do that. You need to just stay in your own head.

Speaker 2:

You need to just stay in your own head. That's right. You've got to give the other person the opportunity to respond without trying to manufacture the outcome, which is so hard for us, because we want the outcome to be a certain thing and we don't have a lot of trust in the unknown and we aren't comfortable. We don't have resilience around. Being uncertain and that's a part of this mindset process is how do you build that resilience and how do you say what needs to be said and how do you let that person be responsible for themselves? It's not easy work, but it's really worthwhile.

Speaker 1:

Can you, do you have an example, or do you have a kind of a case study to help bring this home for people?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. Kind of to your point about the corner office and how that made you feel, you know, misvalued. I think that one of the things that comes up frequently for me as a person who's thinking like I can't seem to get promoted to the next level you know why can't I get this VP opportunity, what's going on? And they see that as a natural progression. It's the next rung on the ladder, it's the thing that's going to prove that I'm valuable and that I'm seen. And so it becomes this really heavy burden.

Speaker 2:

And what we discover as we go through it is often they don't really want the thing that they're trying to get. It's a compulsion because they think that getting it proves something about them, even though it's going to make their life harder. It's not necessarily going to be what they want it to be. They're aware of that, but they feel like if they don't get it, it's saying something about their potential and where it's possible for them to go. And so it's like it's the almost reverse of what you were talking about, where the fear becomes like it's catastrophic.

Speaker 2:

If I don't get it. That means they think I suck and I can't do this and I have no future here. And that is where that you know your self-worth is so shaky, because it's really based on what other people are showing you versus what you know to be true. And that is such a frequent issue. And if you can get people to that point where they have that recognition, it's really freeing for them because they're like I don't even want that and it feels so unburdening for me to not chase that anymore and to really consider what would be the thing that would actually energize me anymore and to really consider what would be the thing that would actually energize me.

Speaker 1:

So that's part of the process that you help people work through is really identifying what is at the core is going to make them happy, instead of this thing that they believe is going to make them happy. Is that?

Speaker 2:

right. That's right, because they've been taught to think in that very linear way, and when all you do is meet other people's expectations and do what you've been taught, there's no space in your head for what you want. And so people will say, like well, I don't know what I want, and I'm like well, of course, you don't know what you want. All you ever do is what you don't want to do or what you've been told you should do, and so you have to create that space to get that clarity that space to get that clarity.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh, it's like that was a rewind moment to think that when you are just so focused on what you believe everybody needs to know about you or believe about you, you don't make any space for you to decide what's really important to you.

Speaker 2:

Did I say that right?

Speaker 1:

That's exactly right. Wow, I, that space is so important because it's that self-awareness I talk about that when I work with teams. It's that self-awareness and taking that time for you that we don't. We put the people around us before us, not just the people that we live with or that we love, but also our team. We think that that shows us as better leaders. But we need to make that space for us, and part of that is to figure out our worth.

Speaker 1:

Oh, this is so good, mackie, I am like you have me on auto, like not auto, but like move, like thinking so fast, but you're going to give us some tips, right, give us some tips to think about. Okay, so we'll do that when we come back. Mackie is going to set us up for success and give us three tips that we can start using right now to shift this mindset for us. So stay right here. You're not going to want to miss it. Hi, susie, here. You know, one of the things that I love is I facilitate team conversations, whether it's talking about high stakes, how to advocate for one another. So if you're a leader and you want to bring your team together, you want to level them up, help them really bond together and increase their confidence as a whole. Contact me, go to susietomachukcom, Tell me a little bit about your team and I'll be in touch. All right, so this is where you're going to give. You're going to teach me. What are three ways, what are your tips for us that we can really start using today?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, these are really simple tips. The first one is you have to be conscious. You know so much of what we do is on autopilot. There's so much happening in the background. We're so accustomed to the way we operate we don't think about it. So the first thing I really encourage is you got to tune in. You got to pay attention to what your brain is saying to you. When you get into a certain situation, like we were talking about around, you know what's the mental chatter that pops up or where you tell yourself things aren't possible, or what's kind of the background of what's going on in your mind. You've got to tune into that. It's very uncomfortable, but it's where all the information lies that you need in order to make the changes that we're going to continue to talk about with the other tips.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so for me, when I think about this and I think about like a high stakes situation or a situation that makes you nervous, it's being really intentional about how you're going to move into that, so you can have that clarity that you know that you're going to do it and not get in your own way. Do you think that that's tied to? Do you think I'm tying that well to what you just said?

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and I think what people don't recognize when they've been in autopilot for a long time is the way they're getting in their own way, and so you've got to identify that ahead of time to understand like the excuses you're making that sound like logical reasons for not making progress are actually being driven by all of these limiting beliefs and negative self-talk and things that you've just sort of integrated to keep yourself safe and keep yourself moving forward but that really aren't going to help you get to the next level and you've just got to be listening for that and writing it down and being conscious so that you can have a different response. If that is the thing that comes up for you, you know how can you interrupt that pattern by saying something different in its stead, and we're going to talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and I'm going to say so. The way to use this intention is think about what's coming up for you that's making you maybe a little nervous or that is high stakes for you, and take a moment to think about what's going on in your head and think about how you want to move into it. Is that a fair way of saying it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so if you notice hey, I'm anxious, you know, ask yourself what am I afraid of? And then be able to identify and flag when it's that catastrophic tendency you know you're afraid of, like the absolute worst case scenario, when that's not reasonable. So how can you kind of recalibrate your response in that moment to approach it differently?

Speaker 1:

Okay, perfect, okay. So intentionality is tip one. What's tip number two? Okay, perfect.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so intentionality is tip one. What's tip number two? So tip number two is actually a question that I want people to ask themselves on a regular basis, and that question is what are you tolerating? Again, we don't think about this, but we're always tolerating something, whether it's personally or professionally, and it can be internal. It can be that you're tolerating a high level of anxiety or stress, you're not getting enough sleep, you're not taking care of yourself, you feel like crap.

Speaker 2:

Most of the time, you're tolerating a certain culture or situation at work or a dynamic with a person that you don't want to be in anymore. There's just so many different things that we kind of accept as par for the course, but they really are having this very cumulative and negative impact that ultimately make you feel very disempowered. It feels like you don't have any choice in the matter. You know this is just the way it is. I guess it's just going to be this way and you just go into this like very resigned state of neutrality and talk yourself out of doing things that would maybe rock that boat because you think it's pointless, right, but getting that sense, for what am I putting up with that? I just don't want to be putting up with. That is a really important inventory to take for yourself.

Speaker 1:

What a powerful question what are you tolerating? And that also, for me, leads to what do you need to ask for, what do you need to advocate for? Because when you realize or recognize what you're tolerating, then that begs the question of what do you need to get yourself out of that?

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's such a good question inventory and they see in black and white this is not a tenable situation, that it's going to force other decisions right. I may not be able to stay here. I may need to leave. What if this person doesn't respond the way I want them to listen? Part of this is you're never going to be without fear. The point is not to be fearless. The point is to not let the fear be the thing that decides what happens next, and so be open to the fact that you may discover that where you are isn't the right place for you, or that relationship isn't the right one for you, or this circumstance can't go on and you're going to choose to walk away from it. We've got to be willing to let things end, which is another big mindset challenge that a lot of people face that they can work through as part of this process. But remind yourself that it's going to be OK and sometimes it's going to be even better if you can let go of things that are just taking up space in your life.

Speaker 1:

Oh, so good, so good, all right. What's the third tip?

Speaker 2:

So the third tip is something I like to call ruthless recalculation. Okay, so this is where, whenever you have a decision in front of you that you understand, you could choose from fear to do what you've always done. I want you to make a different decision. Okay, that's a ruthless recalculation. I'm not going to do what I normally do. What am I going to do instead? And then do the thing instead, because it takes action to actually change the way that you think they go together. So it is a mental exercise, but it is also a behavior exercise.

Speaker 2:

So when you are in a situation where you would normally maybe choose the part that feels easier and doesn't really rock the boat and isn't really going to change anything, but that makes you feel disempowered, I want you to make a different choice or consider different options. You know you don't always have to burn everything down and blow everything up. Choose the low stakes places to make that decision first. You know, maybe you tend to never make a decision about where to eat dinner and you know next time, when you're in that conversation with your significant other or somebody, you just make the choice. You know it sounds so silly, but what you're doing is you're you're learning new muscle memory around how you respond and react to things where you're basically putting your own needs ahead of what you've always done, and that does require you to be very conscious and make the choice in that moment. I'm not going to do what I've always done. What can I do instead?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, ruthless recalibration. I love that and it's I love that you gave that example, because until you gave that example, my heart was beating, cause I know that there's there's things this is scary. So I love that you identified that it's scary and and make a shift that just feels comfortable for now and see what happens.

Speaker 2:

That's right. It's all baby steps and people make the mistake of trying to change everything all at once, and you do not need to do that. You start very small and then you naturally know your strength and when to tackle the bigger and bigger things and to move forward.

Speaker 1:

Oh, there's so much wisdom here, Mackie. So the first tip is intention. Second one is asking what are you tolerating? And the third is radical recalibration. Do I get it?

Speaker 2:

I was like, yeah, so the first step was was actually be conscious, which is like being intentional, and then ask what you're tolerating. And then the third one was the ruthless recalculation right, Making that choice in a moment Like I've got to be kind of brutal with myself here if I want anything to change. So how, how am I going to choose to do that?

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh. So good. Definitely re-listen to this and really think about these three steps and know, like Mackie said, it's not going to be easy, but it's important that you do these things and do it on a regular basis. Thanks, Mackie. All right, so we're going to talk about I got to get my bearings and we'll come back and kind of close this out and talk about what we're going to do. What are we going to be courageous to do? So we'll be right back. So we'll be right back.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I got it. Hey everybody, I'm James. I'm Susie's co-host on her other podcast, quick Take. You're enjoying this podcast. You're going to love our podcast Quick Take even better, mostly because, well, I'm there, which is infinitely more entertaining. But hey, you'll love it if you join us. Please subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1:

All right, mackie, this was a little heavy for me and you gave me a lot to think about. I know that as I think about what I'm going to do with these tips and I think about what I'm going to stop, start and continue, which I always really talk about is, I want to challenge everybody to write down these steps and look at them and decide today, how are you going to react different, or ask yourself these questions. I mean, what other advice do you give people when they first uncover these pretty powerful steps?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just know that, because it's uncomfortable. You may feel motivated in this moment to know I've got to go do all these things and that's great, but commitment is the only thing that's going to carry you through. And the other thing I would just really love to emphasize is it doesn't take that much effort. It just takes consistent effort. So if you could set aside 10 to 15 minutes a day to review your day and think about where you could make changes or where you did things the way you normally did them and would like that to be different, that's really all it takes. You just got to show up for yourself, though, every day, and not necessarily set it on the back burner because it's uncomfortable. And if you can get past that part, the exhilaration of making the changes and seeing the difference that it's making will kick in and it will carry you forward. So if you can be okay with being uncomfortable for a short period of time, that will really serve you in seeing this process through.

Speaker 1:

So even I want to just reemphasize what you said just set aside 10 minutes for yourself, even if it's once a week, and look ahead at what's coming up for you and make those decisions, to make those shifts.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I would really encourage at the beginning, try to do 10 minutes a day, you know, and maybe if you have a routine in the morning where you think about your day and what's ahead, do that. Or maybe it's in the evening you want to review your day. It's just 10 minutes, you have 10 minutes, you always have the time and do that until you get to the part where you the point where you feel stronger and maybe it is so much more kind of integrated with how you operate that you can do it less frequently but you're being more conscious and so it's kind of making up for the fact that you're not necessarily sitting down to do like 10 minutes of work.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I love that. I'm going to put a sticky on my computer screen that says 10 minutes a day and I'm going to make sure that I turn everything off. I'm going to do it, yeah.

Speaker 2:

That sounds great Okay.

Speaker 1:

Uh, okay, so what? How can people find you Tell us a little bit about what you do?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so people can find me on LinkedIn. My name is and we'll put it in the show notes, but it's Mackie Musavi. I'm on LinkedIn. That's also my website, my namecom. I have a book out there called the high achievers guide on. You can find it on Amazon and on my website If you want to do this work. It's a very complete guide to doing this work and, um, you know, I'd love to hear from you if you have questions or, you know, want to chat about anything you heard today.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Thank you, Mackie. I feel so blessed that we're friends and if you want.

Speaker 1:

I know where I'm going to have you back here again, because your wisdom is something that just always blows me away. So thank you so much for spending your time with us. Yeah, it was great. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode of Leaders with Leverage. I am so honored that you chose to spend your time with me.

Speaker 1:

If you're ready to accelerate your professional growth and invest in defining the career you want, I have more resources for you. You can join my newsletter, where your inbox will love a Monday minute. It's an easy read, where I share stories of how others are adopting a negotiator's mindset so that you can use these tips so that you can find success every week. And if you want to read my book, the Art of Everyday Negotiation Without Manipulation, I have a special offer just for my listeners. These links can be found in the show notes, and if you want to work with me, there's more information there as well. I'd love for you to be a part of this movement to adopt a negotiator's mindset, because those who do create opportunities for themselves and they believe the investment is completely worth it. Head to the links in the show notes and just remember that. I appreciate you.

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Susie Tomenchok

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