Our interview with Clinical Psychologist, Dr Kathy Nickerson - The Courage to Stay: How to Heal From an Affair and Save Your Marriage

In this episode, we are honored to interview Dr Kathy Nickerson, one of the worlds leading Clinical Psychologists, and an expert in relationships, affairs and how to heal after betrayal in a relationship.
 She answers questions, such as;
-What do you believe are the keys to a healthy relationship?
-Do you believe "once a cheater, always a cheater"?
-What advice would you give an individual who has been cheated on?
This podcast episode is full of great wisdom and insights, a must listen for anyone who has been in a relationship where there has been infidelity, or anyone who is supporting someone dealing with the pain of an affair.

Kathy Nickerson, Ph.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist, award winning author, and nationally recognized relationship expert who has helped thousands of couples. Over the past 23 years, Dr. Kathy has presented marriage and relationship advice at more than 70 conferences, while authoring more than 85 professional articles and books. These days, you can find Kathy giving affair recovery advice and teaching couples how to heal from infidelity on social media sites, like TikTok.

Dr. Kathy's latest book, The Courage to Stay: How to Heal From an Affair and Save Your Marriage, was released to critical acclaim in October 2022 and has since won six independent book awards. Kathy is also a frequent contributor to CNBC and regularly featured in USA Today, Reader's Digest, Good Housekeeping, Bustle, Medium, UpJourney, Fatherly, Zoe Report, Bridal Guide, CNN, Forbes, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, LA Times, Newsweek and many more.

Dr. Kathy radiates a sincere, familiar warmth that makes everyone she talks to feel comforted. She captivates readers and listeners with her vibrant and humorous style of communication. Kathy’s approachable and transparent style makes her feel like an "open book," and she is beloved by her clients for intuitively understanding their ideas and feelings.

Dr. Kathy earned her Ph.D. and M.S. in psychology, following her undergraduate work at UC Irvine in Chemistry. Kathy began her career teaching and counseling at-risk youth with the Orange County Health Care Agency. Kathy then led a distinguished program for the United States Department of Justice, where she and her team trained people how to recognize and respond to domestic violence and child abuse. During these years, Kathy discovered the critical importance of healthy relationships on individuals and families.

Dr. Kathy found that strong, healthy marriages greatly influenced the mental health of everyone in a family. A happy marriage made both people feel and act better, which in turn made children and other family members feel safer and more secure. From that point on, Kathy dedicated her career exclusively to helping couples strengthen and repair their relationships.

While Kathy was helping couples reconnect, she developed a particular interest in affair recovery. So many couples were affected by infidelity and many of these couples were struggling to heal because they had been told, by other therapists or family members, that healing from an affair was impossible. Dr. Kathy found that by blending trauma therapy techniques with solid relationship repair techniques (such as those promoted by the Gottman Method, attachment theory, and family systems theory), that she could help these couples recover from betrayal trauma and recover. Since that time, her primary focus has been on helping couples heal from affairs.

Got a question for our podcast or do you need to contact Simon and the Down Under Investigations team? Simply email info@downunderinvestigations.com or call 1300849007 or check out www.downunderinvestigations.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi. Welcome to the latest podcast episode of Down Under Investigations The Truth. We discuss all things private investigation, process, serving , skip tracing and surveillance. You'll hear all about legal issues, cutting edge techniques, latest news and accurate information about our exciting industry. Let's join our host, Simon.

Speaker 2: 0:24

And we're back in 2024. This is the first episode of the season. We're so excited. We've got so many great things planned, and today you're gonna hear from one of the most amazing minds and hearts in the relationship sphere. See, the thing is, most of us have either known someone or are close to someone who's been a victim of cheating, or maybe they've cheated themselves. And I promise you that today's interview is going to be sensational and helpful for everybody, whether you are a victim or whether you're a perpetrator of affairs. I believe that this podcast is gonna be just for you. So stay tuned. Check it out. Here we go. Dr. Kathy Nickerson is a licensed clinical psychologist. She's also an award-winning author, nationally recognized and I guess internationally recognized relationship expert who has helped thousands of couples over the past 23 years. Dr. Kathy has presented marriage and relationship advice at more than 70 conferences. She's authored more than 85 professional articles and books these days. You can find Dr . Kathy giving her fair advice and teaching couples how to deal with infidelity on social media sites like TikTok. That's where we found her. Dr. Kathy has been happily married for 25 years. She brings great real life experiences to all aspects of her work. She spent thousands of hours studying relationships, writing books and articles , also creating relationship repair content, and researching couples in all stages of their relationships, particularly those affected by infidelity and affairs. When she's away from the office, she loves being a wife, a sister, and auntie and a daughter. She and her husband enjoy traveling, digging for fossils and volunteering. She's from Southern California and works, you know, as a volunteer in Southern California, bulldog Rescue. Kathy loves to read work in her garden, experiment in the kitchen, and make homemade gifts for friends when she relaxes. It's usually on the couch with her dogs and a great glass of wine watching a true crime show. What we love about Dr . Cathy <laugh> is her wisdom, empathy regarding those who have been subject to a relationship involving an affair. Because what we've found is most media, movies, news, et cetera , will show you that if a partner cheats on you, you must immediately cut them off and seek revenge. And whilst in an abusive relationship, this is certainly fair. Dr. Kathy has a unique and beautiful perspective on working hard to restore relationships after an affair . I believe that wisdom and passion is best summed up in the title of a brilliant book, the Courage to Stay, how to Heal From An Affair and Save Your Marriage. So Dr . Kathy , welcome. Welcome, welcome. Hi.

Speaker 3: 3:13

Hi. So nice to see you, Simon. Ah ,

Speaker 2: 3:16

Lovely to see you. See , we'd love to, I know I've given a little bit of , uh, background on you, but please tell us a little bit about yourself and your training and your experience.

Speaker 3: 3:26

Oh, sure. Well, I first should say I tried Vegemite for the first time the other day, <laugh> , and that was quite a victory. Oh, good . So I, I love , um, I love Australia. I am dying to see a kookaburra in real life. So this is important experience 'cause you never know when I'm gonna relate kookaburra to affairs. But , um, I, I started my career , uh, quite a while ago , uh, about 25, 24 years ago , really ago . Um, and I started , uh, with some teaching and also working with kids who were on probation. And I realized that these kids were acting out because their home was very unstable for the most part. There were other factors, but the kids were really unhappy, and it's because the family as a whole was not doing well. So then I thought, all right, so I have to start helping some of these, you know, adults and some of these relationships heal and get a little bit better. And once I started going down that path, I realized, oh my gosh, you know, we really don't have a scientifically validated method of helping these couples. Um, and that's when I stumbled across the Gottman's research. And then from there I started specializing a little bit further in couples who had affairs, because that was the most , um, prevalent group that kept calling me. And that's when I also started to learn about trauma. And so I realized if we can combine what we know about trauma with what we know about relationships, we can powerfully help these couples to heal. Because affairs come from trauma for the most part, and they cause trauma. So , um, that's how I ended up getting into this specialty of helping people heal from affairs.

Speaker 2: 5:11

Oh , it's brilliant. It's brilliant. So what do you believe are the keys to a healthy relationship? Let's start on a positive. You know, if you're building a healthy relationship, what are some of the steps and keys you should put into place or practice early on?

Speaker 3: 5:26

You know, the most important key to a healthy relationship is communication. And it's something that we all struggle with from time to time. Um, but if you are not talking to your partner regularly about your feelings, your relationship is gonna go off the rails really quickly. And it's, it's not just talking and listening , uh, to transmit information. It is really about sharing feelings and feeling like your partner cares about you. So what I encourage people to do to really keep their relationships healthy is chat every day about, you know, life, the business of life, what's going on. But at least once a week, sit down and really have a good conversation where you're focused on feelings, listening to feelings, validating feelings and reassuring feelings. If you do that, that's gonna go a long way towards keeping your relationship healthy and helping you avoid, you know, getting on this a fair track.

Speaker 2: 6:25

Oh , that's some brilliant advice there. And you've done a lot of research and, and studies and surveys, and so you've, you've got the background on all of this and you've got the facts and figures to back it up. Um, in regards to cheating, do you find more males or females are inclined to cheat? And why do you think this is so?

Speaker 3: 6:44

Well, there's some pretty significant gender differences there. For the most part, more men do stray than women. And this says nothing about their character. It says a lot about their coping mechanisms and how men, I think are socialized. Men are not brought up to really, or have not been really brought up to talk about their feelings. They're often taught to just shove things down, bury it, don't deal with it, avoid it, don't talk about it. The problem is you still actually feel things, right. And you're still suffering and nobody, you know, nobody teaches you coping strategies if that's the model of your family. That's

Speaker 2: 7:23

Right. So

Speaker 3: 7:24

A lot of men are just walking around in a lot of pain and they don't know what to do to feel better. So they are a little bit more likely than women based on this to go outside the marriage. But women do too. The the last study that I saw on this that was collecting, you know, widespread data was about 20% of men report straying in their marriages and about 13% of women. So there's a difference, but it's not as far apart as you might think.

Speaker 2: 7:53

Uh , there you go. And I think we find the same thing with the majority of our clients. It's, it's often that females suspecting the males, but it's definitely both sides of the , uh, the gender divide. And , um, yeah. So do you believe the saying , once a cheater, always a cheater, you know, a leopard can't change its spots. Is that something that you believe? I think I know the answer. 'cause I've seen your TikTok on this <laugh>.

Speaker 3: 8:17

I totally do not believe that. You know, there was a research study done about six years ago called Once a Cheater, always a cheater. And that study was done on about 484 people. And it found if you cheat in one relationship, you're three times more likely, actually 3.4 times more likely to cheat in the next relationship. And when everybody saw this, there was a big stir because people thought, oh my gosh, this proves it once a cheater always a cheater. But that is absolutely not true. Just like once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, once a drug addict, always a drug addict, whatever you use to cope with your pain, you can heal at any point once you realize, oh, this is not really the problem. The problem is something underneath this, and usually it's some kind of trauma. So, no, I wholeheartedly do not believe once a cheater, always a cheater. Um, once something is in your repertoire, it's, you know, more likely that you will do it again . Unless you realize, oh my gosh, this is in so incredibly destructive, I cannot do this anymore. I have to learn a new way because this way is gonna destroy my life, destroy my family, destroy my partner. And once people do realize that they absolutely can't change.

Speaker 2: 9:31

Yeah . And I guess just on that, so you really believe about getting to the core on why this has happened and Yeah . Just getting to the root cause of why someone's behaved in a certain way.

Speaker 3: 9:44

Absolutely. Right. Because, you know, cheating is not a solution to a problem. Cheating is, is a painkiller, right? People have affairs to feel like a different person, to become a different person, not to really be with someone else. They just want an escape from whatever pain is happening in their life. And I'm not justifying it or excusing it, but affairs are absolutely a painkiller. And so until you figure out, well, what is that pain you're in and what's going on with you that's causing you to wanna reach out to someone else to solve this problem , um, you know, you are at high risk for cheating again. So we have to get to the root of the problem.

Speaker 2: 10:26

Yeah, that's great. And I mean, without going into too much detail , um, what are some of the things that would be the advice you'd give someone , um, as an individual who has been cheated on

Speaker 3: 10:40

My book will definitely help you. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 10:43

Absolutely. Um ,

Speaker 3: 10:43

It , it's, you know, I wrote this book to really help both people heal because it's very traumatizing to both people. And , um, you know, when somebody discovers an affair , um, their whole world is destroyed. You know, they feel like everything they knew, everything they trusted, everything that they counted on has been destroyed. And they don't know where to step in their world. Nothing feels safe anymore. So at first there's so much shock and surprise and horror and just , um, it feels like this incredible gut punch. It's very much like losing, you know, a family member. Suddenly you just feel like, oh my God, the whole world is different right now. And it just happened a second ago. Yeah. So the first thing is sort of getting through that shock and it's a lot of self care and just, you know, surrounding yourself with people and, and things that comfort you. And then it's a lot of talking and starting to process some of the feelings. You know, people that have been betrayed feel , um, very hurt, very shocked. They're experiencing a lot of grief, they're experiencing a lot of anger. And it's complicated because the person who hurts you the most is also the person that you love the most. So while you'd want to lean into that comfort and that love, you don't trust it. So there's work to be done to kind of repair the trust, trust yourself, cope with the grief. There's lots of work to be done there, but it can absolutely be done.

Speaker 2: 12:19

That's brilliant. And what are some of the signs that you'd say, if someone is trying to consider whether they're going to try and work through this work through an affair, what are some of the signs a person who has been cheating on should look for in the betrayer?

Speaker 3: 12:37

What they should really look for is remorse. Is the person who strayed, do they feel badly about what they've done? Do they take responsibility for what they've done? Do they think that this was a horrible thing that they did? If so, very, very good. The other thing to look for is changed behavior. Are they doing different things now? Are they struggling a little bit? Are they talking more about feelings? Are they opening up? Are they sharing more? If so , those are really good signs that change is happening and that you're in new territory and that things are gonna be better for the two of you if you keep working through it.

Speaker 2: 13:15

Ah , brilliant. Because I guess you'd say that the , the , the true sign that someone's changing in their heart would be that the outward actions and words and expression is changing as well . Is that correct?

Speaker 3: 13:29

Yeah, absolutely. Right. I mean, after an affair, it's so hard to trust what somebody says, right? 'cause trust has been obliterated. But what you can trust is their behavior. So what are they doing that's different? Are they becoming completely transparent? Are they showing you their emails? Um, are they leaving their phone out on the counter so you can see it look for changed behavior and remorse, and that will help kind of help you see that things are actually shifting.

Speaker 2: 13:59

Oh , that's brilliant. Some brilliant advice there. And what are the key signs you'd say that a relationship should be completely cut off and done away with?

Speaker 3: 14:10

Well, as you mentioned earlier, I think if there's abuse, that's an important time to, at a minimum, take a break. I never wanna be telling somebody they should stay in the relationship or not stay, I wanna support what they're wanting to do. But if somebody is abusing you, it's very hard to heal in an unsafe environment. So the relationship doesn't have to be over. But I would love for you to take a break, get to safety and reevaluate. But assuming it's not abuse, I think I would really pay attention to emotional disconnection. Sure . If you feel like you aren't in love with your partner anymore, you can't talk to them. You don't even wanna try to talk to them . You don't feel respected by them, you don't have respect for them. If you don't even like them anymore and you just feel like, I really want nothing to do with this person, and that lasts for more than, you know, a couple of days , uh, because right after an affair, you're probably gonna feel that for sure.

Speaker 2: 15:09

Absolutely. Yes.

Speaker 3: 15:10

But if that keeps lingering and you think there's nothing here anymore, then that's a time to probably say it ran its course, and the right thing is for both of us to move on to the next thing.

Speaker 2: 15:21

Yeah. Yeah. Have you got any examples of that where someone has sort of initially felt like there's no way this is done, this is over with, but then things have changed? The, the , uh, the emotions, the hearts changed and they've been able to work through things like that and, and, and get things back on track?

Speaker 3: 15:43

You know, so many people , um, in fact, I believe the number is 78% , um, 78% of people told us their relationships were better after the affair. And I was shocked when I saw that number because I thought, how , how could this possibly be? But the truth is, before the affair, a lot of people who were, you know, the people who strayed, they were not sharing how they were feeling. They were doing what I described earlier. They were shoving stuff down, pretending that it didn't matter. And they were suffering a lot. And again, not an excuse, but they were in pain. And so they looked for a way to cope with that pain, and they chose a very unhealthy way to do it. So when the affair happens , you realize , well, I can't do that anymore. Or this is completely over. And they start to realize, oh, I've gotta start talking. We've gotta figure this out. And then the relationship can become so much deeper and richer 'cause you're actually sharing what you're thinking, what you're feeling, what's hurting you. And more often than not, your partner wants to lean into that and cares about you. Right? So relationships can absolutely get better on the other side of , of an affair. It's not the right choice for everybody. But I think if you wanna give it a go, you should absolutely try. And you might be very pleasantly surprised by the , um, by the outcome.

Speaker 2: 17:01

Absolutely. That's , uh, that's some brilliant hope there. Um, and what are the , uh, best ways a cheetah, someone who's been unfaithful can show their partner that, Hey, I'm working through this, I'm really trying hard. What are, what are some of the, the , um, practical things they can do? And also, what are some of the thing ways they can express that they do wanna continue in this relationship and, and make things work?

Speaker 3: 17:29

Oh , that's a , that's a great, great question. I love to talk about those specifics. So there are several things that the strang partner can do. The first thing is to have a, you know, breakup conversation with the affair partner, right? Your hurt partner, your original partner, the person at home doesn't know what was said, doesn't know how things wrapped up. So it's very helpful for them. If there can be an email or a text or a letter or some communication from the person who strayed and the affair partner that says, Hey, I am not doing this anymore. I've made a mistake. My partner knows about it. Let's not talk again. Right? In my book, I have a more detailed example, but you can do whatever's right for you. The key point is to just say, this is done. And then once that, you know, breakup has happened and the hurt partner has visibility into that, then I think you need to sit down and have a bunch of conversations. You need to come clean, tell all the details, except for intimate, you know, sexual details,

Speaker 2: 18:34

<crosstalk> . Yeah . So I was gonna , I was gonna mention that that was something that you're very clear on in, in what I've heard you say. It's great to get all the details, but not the specific sexual Yeah . Affair details. Why would you say that? Can you, can you explain why you don't believe that's that's a good option?

Speaker 3: 18:53

Yeah, it's just because it, it really creates very strong visuals in your head. And if you are ever in that situation with your partner again, right? When you are engaged in those activities, you're gonna have those pictures. And it's, it's better to not know for the , for the most part, than it is to know those details. I recommend to people, you know, wait six months, if you still feel it's really important to go down that path and know all of those intimate details after six months, sit down with a therapist and talk about it. It's okay to have broad strokes, right? Like <laugh> , you can ask like, how many times were you intimate and get an answer four or whatever it is . But we don't really wanna go through, well, what happened and then what happened? And then what about this that's gonna be really painful for you both.

Speaker 2: 19:43

That's brilliant. And what's the best advice you'd give someone who has left a relationship due to infidelity Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> as they look at the future, as they look potentially at another partner, at another relationship, or even just to start dating and, and , uh, getting out into the world again?

Speaker 3: 20:01

Yeah. Oh, great question. Well, I think, you know, look for really good communication skills and look for somebody that doesn't avoid conflict and avoid hard , hard conversations. Because if we believe that a lot of straying behavior is connected to avoiding and shutting down and denying feelings, you kind of want the opposite of that. Now, that doesn't mean that somebody who does avoid topics can't develop better communication, but if you have your choice, pick somebody that has, you know, good communication skills and really work on talking about difficult things as a couple , couple . And then, you know, if you were asking , um, I would also ask and kind of look for, you know, is has there been infidelity in the past? Was there infidelity in the family? Because we know that infidelity has a genetic basis, so it's something to be on the lookout for and think if you find something that's concerning, talk about it, right? Just say, Hey, like, this is, I know this is a risk factor for our relationship because this happened in your last relationship. So how are we going to make sure that never happens to us? 'cause I don't think either one of us wants to go through that, something like that.

Speaker 2: 21:13

Sure . Yeah. And if you are that person who's come out of a relationship where you've been cheated on, would you say there's a timeframe or how would you know that you are ready for that to get back into the , the dating world or to start looking for a , a new partner?

Speaker 3: 21:29

Great question. Also, I, I would encourage somebody who had been cheated on to do a little bit of self, you know, self work to make sure they've healed from that , right? It's really shocking. It's very upsetting. Nearly all of the people we surveyed , um, and , you know, it was over 3,600 people told us they had, they felt they had post infidelity stress disorder, which is like a version of post-traumatic stress disorder, but just the trauma is the affair. So if you feel traumatized by the affair, make sure to get some, you know, trauma help before and trauma healing help before you get into your next relationship. So it could be that you're, you know , you're ready to get into your next relationship six months or eight months later because you've done some great trauma healing, and now you feel comfortable and safe and fine . Um, let your healing be the guide rather than the calendar , be the guide.

Speaker 2: 22:25

And so, tell us a little bit about your book. Your book is brilliant, the Courage to Stay, how to Heal From An Affair And Save Your Marriage. What , what , how do , how do we get the book , um, how to and what, what's the, what's the basic themes throughout that book? What, what would you like to share about ? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 22:44

You know , um, the book is really me guiding both of you over a fair mountain, right? When an affair happens, you know, like I said, your world feels blown to smithereens. And then you're looking at this incredibly daunting task of trying to heal. And what makes it worse is that society is telling you, oh, you can't heal. That's ridiculous. Just dump that person. And a lot of times when you open up to other people, they say, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're even considering staying together. But the truth is, most people do stay together after an affair, and the people that heal don't talk about it because it's embarrassing, right? So the people that haven't healed from an affair are often very vocal. And that's mostly what we hear in our society, right? You can't heal, it's impossible. So this book is everything I know about how to heal from an affair in kind of a step-by-step manual. I wanted to teach you how to do all of it, recover, you know, recover from the shock, understand trauma, understand triggers, what to do about those things, how to have conversations. Um, so it's a book for both the person who, who's stray and the person who's hurt. And I hope that it will help keep more families together, thinking back to my original days working with those kids on probation, if I can heal, help heal the families, I can, he keep the families together, prevent more trauma and stop this, you know, intergenerational trauma from happening.

Speaker 2: 24:16

So yeah . So perpetual cycle, isn't it? Sometimes. Yeah . It's almost like hurting people hurt people . So someone who's been hurt for sure is likely to hurt someone else unless they deal with that pain and that trauma.

Speaker 3: 24:28

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 24:29

Yeah. No, that's brilliant. And you've got some coaching clients and some, some relationship clients here in Australia, I believe.

Speaker 3: 24:37

I do. I love my wonderful Aussie clients, <laugh> . Uh ,

Speaker 2: 24:42

And we love you. You are , you're absolutely brilliant. So how would <laugh> , how would, how would someone who has been through this, or from either side, whether they've been cheated on or they're a cheater trying to recover their relationship, how would they get in touch with you and how would they, do you do , um, appointments online or is there a , how do they get your brilliant wisdom? Yes.

Speaker 3: 25:06

Oh , well, everybody can come check me out on TikTok for free. That's where I give a lot of , um, a lot of wis , I hope, a lot of wisdom, sometimes some ridiculousness , um, but a lot of wisdom , uh, that way. And then my book is available on Amazon, and it's available in any English speaking country right now. We haven't had it translated yet, we will one of these days. But you can go to Amazon , um, in your country and you should be able to , um, order that. It's also available through Audible, so you can get it there. But if you wanna talk to me, I am available. I do , um, consultations and so people can come to my website and learn more and book a session if they want. And let's see. Let's see who we can help in Australia feel better.

Speaker 2: 25:52

Oh , absolutely. You brilliant. And we really do appreciate you what you do, your, your perspective, your passion for helping relationships be healed. Often in our role, we come across these situations where someone's been cheated on, and then we're talking to the betrayed partner and they're like, I dunno what to do now, what do I do now? And oh, yeah, we almost feel very inadequate. Um, we've done our part of the job, but , um, and we've got the results, and sadly , um, we come with a box of tissues for them to have a cry, and we try the , to make sure that they're safe. But having someone like yourself to talk to and your wisdom is, I guess, something that I'm definitely gonna be recommending from now into the future with any of these clients that we have that really need someone to talk to and need that , um, that wisdom, that encouragement, that empathy, and someone who can really give , point them in the right direction and support them .

Speaker 3: 26:50

Oh , well, thank you for the work that you do. And, you know , um, I can imagine that it's very hard for you because you are the person who's delivering this life shattering news. And so then you see this person who's sitting there just devastated. So

Speaker 2: 27:06

That'ss gotta be hard . And we see all sorts, we definitely see all sorts, all sorts of reactions where the , sometimes it's relief. It's like, I knew it, I knew this was going on. Yeah , sometimes it's sadness, sometimes it's anger. It's, I guess it's the stages of grief that different people are at. Mm-Hmm . Depending on mm-hmm . How early they have been suspecting this, or sometimes it's a complete shock. There's been jobs where we've, we've followed someone and there has been no cheating, but the , the good , the person is adamant there's something going on. So I guess helping them work through, well, maybe you need to communicate and talk to your partner and actually, yeah , have some more open communication about that sort of thing. But , um, that's, that's something I can talk about on a, on a future episode. But thank you so much Dr . Kathy . Pleasure . Your pleasure . Um , this has , uh, been such an insight and we're glad we've met. Um, look forward to me too, you working with some of our clients in the future. Thanks so much for your time.

Speaker 3: 28:03

Thank you, Simon. Take good care.

Speaker 2: 28:05

You too. Take care.

Speaker 4: 28:07

If you wanna learn more about Dr. Kathy Nickerson , make sure you check out all her social media, particularly her TikTok , where she gives some great advice to , uh, people who are close to or have been involved in a affair in a relationship. Make sure you get on her website and you'll find a contact page there to get in touch with her if you do need to take things further. And don't forget, download her book. Go, go buy her book, jump on the Amazon website and you'll find it there. Um, and as she mentioned, it's also available in audio form on Audible.

Speaker 1: 28:43

Thanks for listening. To get in touch with the team at Down Under Investigation, check out our website@downunderinvestigations.com or call 1 308 4 9 0 0 7 or email info@downunderinvestigations.com.