View From The Top
69. THE FORGE: Crossroads at the Family Firm and How to Honor a 50 Year Legacy
"I could write a book on anxiety... I'm fighting for reconciliation within the family and the business because there's brokenness." Mystery business owner David is holding on to the threads of a 50 year legacy. Should he go with his gut or listen to the other family members about what to do with the business?
How do you build a legacy for your kids and grandkids without the risk of them becoming entitled? Or do you make them work for everything they ever own?
These challenges and more are the foundation of a 50 year legacy that David is facing with his siblings and his wife and his wife's siblings... yes, lots of family members AND lots of opinions at a family firm.
Key Takeaways:
- The dangers of building your future on a handshake
- The best way forward when family problems leak into the business
- How do you honor the family legacy without compromising on dreams and values?
- How to set boundaries and at what cost
The narrative weaves through tales of divine calling, the importance of preserving personal relationships above business dealings, and the wisdom of legacy planning. It's a candid look at the sacrifices and decisions made at the crossroads of personal aspirations and familial obligations.
Win a Free Ticket for ISI Event: http://viewfromthetop.com/win
Connect with Anthony Witt: witthouse.com or anthonywitt.com
Anthony Witt is a professional licensed counselor and a business owner with a deep understanding of how entrepreneurship impacts personal health and those around them. Having bought, sold, and started multiple businesses, he has gained valuable
experience at the intersection of personal health and business. His belief that "a healthy business owner creates a healthy business" underscores his approach to helping entrepreneurs thrive.
Connect with Bret Barnhart:
Barnhartexcavating.com
Bret’s Calendar Link
Bret’s Linkedin
Bret Barnhart, Jr. is the fourth generation in his family to start his own excavation company. He began Bret Barnhart Excavating (BBE) in 2002 with $1,500, a single backhoe and truck, and a trailer. Since then, BBE has grown to an entire fleet of heavy machinery and trucks, averages just under 20 employees, and grosses $4mil annually. Bret started out with the family business knowledge and expanded it. In the beginning, his work mainly consisted of general earthwork, utility installation, and excavating pools and storm shelters. As his company grew, Bret saw the need for being more specialized and began pursuing certifications for government contracts and local municipal work. Being specialized, along with having a personal mentor and joining a mastermind, has helped shape not only Bret's company but also himself as well. Bret and his wife Crystal have been married for 16 years and have two children, Cole and Adelyn.
Connect with Big A and Wally:
View From The Top Website: https://www.viewfromthetop.com/
Big A’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronwalkerviewfromthetop/
Wally’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwallenbeck/
What Do I Want Challenge: https://go.viewfromthetop.com/whatdoiwantchallenge
"I could write a book on anxiety... I'm fighting for reconciliation within the family and the business because there's brokenness." Mystery business owner David is holding on to the threads of a 50 year legacy. Should he go with his gut or listen to the other family members about what to do with the business?
How do you build a legacy for your kids and grandkids without the risk of them becoming entitled? Or do you make them work for everything they ever own?
These challenges and more are the foundation of a 50 year legacy that David is facing with his siblings and his wife and his wife's siblings... yes, lots of family members AND lots of opinions at a family firm.
Key Takeaways:
- The dangers of building your future on a handshake
- The best way forward when family problems leak into the business
- How do you honor the family legacy without compromising on dreams and values?
- How to set boundaries and at what cost
The narrative weaves through tales of divine calling, the importance of preserving personal relationships above business dealings, and the wisdom of legacy planning. It's a candid look at the sacrifices and decisions made at the crossroads of personal aspirations and familial obligations.
Win a Free Ticket for ISI Event: http://viewfromthetop.com/win
Connect with Anthony Witt: witthouse.com or anthonywitt.com
Anthony Witt is a professional licensed counselor and a business owner with a deep understanding of how entrepreneurship impacts personal health and those around them. Having bought, sold, and started multiple businesses, he has gained valuable
experience at the intersection of personal health and business. His belief that "a healthy business owner creates a healthy business" underscores his approach to helping entrepreneurs thrive.
Connect with Bret Barnhart:
Barnhartexcavating.com
Bret’s Calendar Link
Bret’s Linkedin
Bret Barnhart, Jr. is the fourth generation in his family to start his own excavation company. He began Bret Barnhart Excavating (BBE) in 2002 with $1,500, a single backhoe and truck, and a trailer. Since then, BBE has grown to an entire fleet of heavy machinery and trucks, averages just under 20 employees, and grosses $4mil annually. Bret started out with the family business knowledge and expanded it. In the beginning, his work mainly consisted of general earthwork, utility installation, and excavating pools and storm shelters. As his company grew, Bret saw the need for being more specialized and began pursuing certifications for government contracts and local municipal work. Being specialized, along with having a personal mentor and joining a mastermind, has helped shape not only Bret's company but also himself as well. Bret and his wife Crystal have been married for 16 years and have two children, Cole and Adelyn.
Connect with Big A and Wally:
View From The Top Website: https://www.viewfromthetop.com/
Big A’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronwalkerviewfromthetop/
Wally’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwallenbeck/
What Do I Want Challenge: https://go.viewfromthetop.com/whatdoiwantchallenge
You're banking your whole family's future on a handshake Exactly, which is very dangerous. I would not do that. I would seek tomorrow to resolve this, even if it cost me the family relationship.
Speaker 3:Hey everybody, we are back to another awesome, fantastic episode of View from the Top where we help growth-minded men who desire momentum and their business, their family and their finances get through the valleys and up the mountains into their very own view from the top. I am glad you're listening today. Hey, we have another awesome Forge special edition episode today and man, we have David on the line with us today as a guest and you know he's going to be masked his voice and all that and Big A is going to explain that, how that's all going to work to us in just a minute. But listen to David today as we work through the struggle that he's having in his family business and man does it get deep and he's got some real struggles he's working through and I know that you all listen out there today. Maybe have some as well. So let's get Big A in the studio. Big A welcome.
Speaker 1:Man, it's so good to see you guys today. Brett, thank you for being here with us. Anthony, thank you for being a co-host again, once again in the Forge, and you guys are awesome, so you always bring a lot of good insights. So I just want to tell you thank you for being here today with Wally and I. I want to ask a quick question before we get started, because this is a little bit of a segue into today's topic. Have either of you ever experienced a challenge? I sounded like my brother-in-law when I said challenge. I sound like I was from Michigan, like my brother-in-law, but have any of you ever experienced a challenge within a family business?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I have been in a four generation of essentially a business. It's just challenging working around family and then we all have the same name, so you're consistently dealing with customers that maybe they worked for and keeping those boundaries, because if we start working for one of the other family members customers then we're likely going to hear about it the Christmas party or something. So it's just challenging overall, especially when we build a business and our name has been around so long, when we use that business name to keep family first above business and everything else. So, yeah, it's challenging, still challenging today.
Speaker 3:Do you guys use the last? That's exactly the same Barnhart excavating like it's the same.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you know, after my great-grandpaul, two generations, two brothers did it, and then that was my grandpa, my uncle, and then my dad and my uncle have separate businesses and everybody uses the name because that's what people know. Wow, right, wow. So not only with customers, but vendors. So you get random invoices from other people because it's all the same now, yeah, yeah, I never heard that one before.
Speaker 1:Send all checks to this PO box and any invoices.
Speaker 3:All the expenses go there, yeah.
Speaker 4:My dad's got the same name, so I'm like send me the checks, I can cash them. Yeah, yeah, and they send their bills to him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. Give those two PO boxes. Yeah, that's great, anthony, you've been in family business for a long, long time. Yeah.
Speaker 5:We're slightly different. We have I would be technically the fourth generation in family business, but we don't use the same names and never have, I think, the. What was the original question? Um, just conflict, or yeah?
Speaker 1:any experience to any challenge within a family business.
Speaker 5:We didn't or haven't experienced the same types of issues that Brett has. Our issues were when we started a family, everybody came together business which we started, a residential commercial house flipping or flipping business back when 08 hit, that's when we started to get conflict, because now everybody's working inside of the bit and we were working in three different, actually three different states, three different locations, but it was one family business. And the lack of clarity Definitely, hey, I'm going to do my thing over here. Okay, great, I'm going to do my thing over here. Okay, now we got to figure out who's doing what, when and where, who's managing this, who's in charge, who's doing the finances, like you know, all the business stuff. Sure, and that's when we started to hey, I'm going to take the money, I'm going to use it on my, my job. No, I want to take the money, use it on my job, you know.
Speaker 1:So that's where we had the conflict.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's where we had to start working through the conflicts.
Speaker 1:Mine was a little different. For me, I've always owned my own company for 45 years now, been a small business owner but the family dynamics have been ever present in my companies because I had family working for me. So it wasn't about making decisions related to vision. You know where we were headed. It was all around people working for me in the business. And how did I treat them fair? You know? Not treating them as good as other employees. You know when I'd let them go, I teased the other day. I told Robin I said all of your sisters have worked for me and I fired them all. And a lot of my nephews and nieces have worked for me and fired the majority of them, and the longest tenure is my oldest daughter. She's still with me, you know, after a decade plus, and so it's been amazing, but it's been challenging. Wally, I don't know for sure if you've had family dynamics in a business or not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I hired my. I heard my brother-in-law. He worked with me about three years and then got kind of dicey with what he wanted to do, what I wanted him to do, and so it was a combination of me saying it was time for him to go and him wanting to go somewhere else. Funny thing was four years later he called me back up and said hey, I'm looking to make a change. You got anything. So we hired him back and he's been there ever since and he did a good job. But that actually worked out pretty well, like it didn't create. You know, you keep those lines of communication open and he had set expectations up front and make it very clear what's expected, and it usually worked out okay. I did hire my wife. She came onto the business as an accounting bookkeeping role for about two and a half years and I think she quit about 30 times and I finally fired her and we're still married today, 31 years. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Well, that leads in really to what we're going to talk about today. We've got a friend of mine David is with us, and I've named this episode Crossroads at the family firm, navigating a 50 year legacy. And before we get into introducing David to you, I just wanted to give you a little bit more explanation on why we're even doing the forge and what it is.
Speaker 1:It's out of the norm of what we've done in the past over a year, year and a half now but the reason we're doing the forage is because at iron sharpens, iron mastermind, we do something called man in the middle, and we do this every single week in every group. And in this episode, though, we're going to protect the identity of David by masking him, literally masking him as the man in the middle, and we're going to distort his voice, even a little bit, because, you know, I mean we wanted real data, but for confidentiality purposes, we've really are distorting the voice and masking him so that he'll give us all the goods, so that we can help make good decisions. But when you're involved in a mastermind group, confidentiality is really expected, and in our groups, it's honored, you know, it stays. What happens in the group stays in the group, and we wanted to show you kind of what that looks like in doing the forge. The reason for us even to do this is to demonstrate the real need to have trusted advisors in our life. And you know, I spent the first 20 years not having trusted advisors in my life and I can't even begin to tell you how I got into trouble by not having trusted advisors in my life, and so hopefully that will demonstrate this to you today. But when you have other competent, unbiased professionals giving you their perspective, it just really may provide for you that missing piece, that consult, that major roadblock that you're up against.
Speaker 1:And so, as we get in this today, I want to introduce a friend of mine, david. David's got a unique situation. The four of us besides David have had opportunity to look over David's situation. He shared with us very detailed information about what he's going through. But I want you to know that none of this is scripted. There's no questions being given out to the host. It's not preplanned. You're hearing it for the first time, just like we're hearing it for the first time. David's got a unique problem and what we're trying to solve for today for David is how does David stay in the family business and stay true to his personal desires and convictions for his personal family? So, david, hey, welcome to the forge. Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. Well, man, give us a little more insight, kind of start out, give us context, give us an overview, just go as deep as you would like so that we all can help you, maybe solve this problem.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate you guys and, for the listeners, I'll try to keep this high level and start at the beginning and then we can dive in specific questions and dig a little deeper. A little background I my family growing up was very kingdom driven. My parents and my siblings were all fully invested and kind of leaving it all in the field with ministry. And growing up I always wrestled with this idea because I had a passion for business and I just enjoyed the marketplace and I'm going to talk to you real quick.
Speaker 5:Go ahead Clearly sake they were in ministry or they did ministry in full time ministry.
Speaker 2:Okay, both my parents and my sister became a missionary as a young teenager and so the with that, my DNA growing up was a very kingdom. It's a very giving kingdom type culture and almost a detriment, and I'll explain that here in a minute. And then, but growing up I had this passion for business and God really gifted me with mentors probably a couple dozen mentors over about a 15 year period, starting at my early teens and they took me under their wing, they disciple me spiritually and in business and I'm forever grateful for those relationships and that they know who they are. And through that journey I really wrestled with this idea of you know how, how do I make a kingdom impact for the, for the gospel and for helping others and lead and grow a profitable company? And so I wrestled with that for years, and one of the things that God connected me with was a C12 group and that was a big catalyst to help forge the belief that the marketplace is really my ministry platform and so we can have just as much, if not more, impact in the marketplace than we can, you know, vocationally, within the church or otherwise. So that kind of set me on this journey of like. What does that look like? So you build a big company and what do you do? Just write checks to you know if your gift is business right, besides discipling your team and leading your team and serving your team well and, of course, your family, your health and your walk with Christ. From outreach standpoint, what does that look like? And so I met Alan Barnhart so that's why I said I was using Barnhart's name over a decade ago and he told me his testimony and it really kind of messed me up because it is, you know, his testimony and yet it's public, you can see it on YouTube is essentially that God convicted him to set a lifestyle limit and then give everything past that away.
Speaker 2:And so I really wrestled with that and my wife's family, their DNA also very kingdom driven, you know, sold out believers, a strong walk with the Lord, but the business side of their, you know, culture is more build a large company or larger company and then use that company to help other people, and so the business we're in is very capital intensive. And so my struggle where I wrestle with, and one of my underlying issues, even within the family, business and just personally, is how to reconcile this and I guess the best way to explain is I'll give you two extremes, and I think both of them are kind of wrong, but this is kind of the to paint the picture, make it real clear. One extreme is you build this Multi hundred billion dollar, you know, company Dynasty sort of speak, where you've got room for your great great-grandkids to have opportunity In, in growing, and so you retain all your earnings within this, or most all your earnings, to continue to grow the Infrastructure of the company. That's one extreme. And then the other extreme is you give it all away and you stay broke and you die broke and You're, you know, you, you purposely set out to say my kids are gonna get zero and I'm gonna leave it all on the field. I'm gonna give it all away and I'm gonna teach my kids, through Discipleship, the power to struggle and teach them how to come up and and make their own way. So those are the two extremes and I know people personally in both those camps and neither one of them set well with me. And so Finding that balance because that kind of dictates the finish line financially right, it's like that that dictates the why why are you building this business outside of just being obedient and providing for your family and you know what's, what's the real underlying root Driver.
Speaker 2:So that's something I've been wrestling with and and through this process it's it's raised a lot of questions within the family business a lot of difficult conversations over many months, hundreds of hours of you know, just digesting and and I think that's that underlines A question of like security and and and generationals.
Speaker 2:You look to, you know this is a third generation business that we're in and we're looking to onboard the next generation. How do we steward that transition and and how do we impart, you know, this principle within our kids and our grandkids? So those are the type of things I've been wrestling with and that's created anxiety in the process, obviously, and and that's been a battle you know I've got I can write a book on on my journey with anxiety and and just the idea of full surrender, you know, to to what God's wanting to do In our hearts and their lives, even when we don't understand it, when it doesn't really make logical sense or reconcile. So I think the things I really want to touch on today was around giving anxiety and full surrender. What does that look like and how to wrestle with that.
Speaker 4:So so this is your wife's family business? Yes, and how many years you've been involved with it? About 13. So has it been a challenge the entire time, from day one? Based off your past, would you say?
Speaker 2:There's been ups and downs. I mean, there's been seasons where it's been really. There's been good, good months, good years and more difficult ones. But what's interesting is my wife and I both set out when we you know we originally got married. I I mean, I can unpack a lot of history, but essentially I had my us, you know very established construction company and we were fully independent and we both kind of told ourselves like we would never be part of the family business because that's just wasn't. We don't want to, you know, we don't want to mess up the relationship. Right to us, the relationships are far more important than the business side and we didn't want to taint that. And Through a series of many events, god made it very clear that he had called us to be in the family business, and that was ten years ago. And so essentially we merged all of our efforts and assets together and we've been together ever since. So everything we do, we do it together, you know. So it's, it's an all-in Everybody's, all in all the time you know.
Speaker 4:So if you have that much conviction and and you feel that God's calling you to this, then why are you letting a family business getting in the way of what you could do individually? Why don't you do it? Why don't, why don't you build a business that does exactly what you want to do, and you can have both.
Speaker 2:That's essentially. Well, it's kind of complicated but To answer your question, yeah, but essentially that's the only path forward that I, that I see and that's essentially the only thing I propose that may work. And I'm, you know, still working that out. What that looks like to, essentially, where we each have our own companies, kind of like your family, you each have your own companies, but you're doing the same, you're in the same industry doing the same type of thing, but you each have your own pots. You know and you kill what you eat, and everybody's working together but they're all eating out of their own pots you know, yeah, so my family, I will tell you, even leaving everybody says leave your kids.
Speaker 4:Kids, that inherent and it's going back scriptually and and I've always thought about that and they left an inheritance to me which was a core value and a way of living in the way of doing business that would excel me further than anything. They could have given me a value, because that's how I do business and that's how we take care of people, so you can still instill that in your children and they can go and be as successful as they want to right, I won't give my kids a business, whatever with this business, whatever we do with it. But I, just as I read through this, I thought why, why like and and? Honestly Give big a credit. He's always asked me I get in this either or and and, and you're somewhat in either or and it can't be both. Why can't it be both? Why can't you do both? Why can't you do that for your kids and why can't you do that for the kingdom, right? And then I have to ask myself are you chasing what you want instead of what they want? There's other people involved.
Speaker 4:I even read through this. I'm grateful for all the hard things that I had to go through of not getting something and and having to live with family because we all have our own. Well, what? How do you respect what maybe God's called them to do? You know, we look at Chick-fil-A or Hobby Lobby and if they just gave it all the way and they didn't continue to build, could they invest in the Bible Museum and that they just built? So there may be something bigger that God's gonna do through one of those kids that you can't see, by building this Empire, to go and make a huge difference in the world.
Speaker 3:David, you said that. You said that you're looking at that as as not the only option, but the sounds like that's the direction that you're going as far as having the business but doing your own thing as well, and not merging them, but but keeping them separate so you have your own, your own path, if you will. What are, what are some of the obstacles that you're that you've come across, that you're facing right now, or anticipate facing, in pursuit of that?
Speaker 2:I think for me it's the inner it's having. And I told big a, you know, you asked me what's the takeaway? And I think for me it's the inner peace, it's knowing that I'm doing God's will, god's way, and I'm not trying to, you know, manufacture or chase something that's not of him. And so for me, it's just this idea of just waiting on God and that being at peace with his pace. Because my tendency as a entrepreneur, as a type a, you know, executive, you know I like to just execute right is to just create a plan. I see the logical steps you need to take, create my behag and and and just go off to the races, you know, and, and that's that's my tendency. And so learning to just be patient and wait on God is, I think, is the biggest thing I'm learning. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's where I'm at.
Speaker 3:So so that's where you're at currently. That you wouldn't consider that to be an obstacle, though you consider that right now to be part of the process. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Anthony, you're gonna say something.
Speaker 5:I would say I want to answer for him. I think it is part of the obstacle, like it appears to be part of the obstacles even in, you know, in the contents Content that we have, or the way that he even just described it. That is part of the obstacle. So when I was, I kind of was taking some very short I got my three sentences notes here and one of the things that popped out to me was you said something pretty profound which most people miss, especially in the church, which is my ministry. Is my work Right, that's my ministry, an application of that as my work? But then you went on to you started to talk about this concept of why. What I didn't hear from you is a clear understanding of your why and your purpose. So in my work, one of the, we got the four areas of health biological, psychological, relational and spiritual health and so we're always focused and when a client comes in, I'm working through all of those areas Spiritual health being why am I here and what am I doing to fulfill that purpose. To me it sounds like there's lack of clarity on that or Understanding of that. You understand the importance of it and you have glimpses of some of the things that those are, and I would even argue that most people don't and they don't. It has to be something that's continually being refined. But if that's clear, then the direction becomes clear and and the peace, the pieces associated with that.
Speaker 5:Because one of the things I had, the first thing I wrote down was is there a right answer here? I Don't think there. There isn't, like. I think that most of us, like we could probably sit on this call without you and argue, hey, do the first one, no, do the second one. And I think I think we could even be forced on either side Probably a lot of us here on this call and we could push you the direction. I don't think there's a right answer. I do think there's a best answer for you based on that first part, which is why are you here and what are you doing? Fulfill that mission.
Speaker 5:And if that's clear, it's not, it doesn't matter. If it's to do a hobby lobby so you can go buy the, build the you know creation museum or whatever you know the Bible Museum, or if it's to serve the people that are right in front of you right now With that, so to speak, cash, I don't think it matters. But if you're living into that purpose, I think that matters, because that also goes into one of your things that you you Tacted on at the end. You set it in our pre-recording, you set it in your paper, which is this anxiety concept, and that's where I kind of grabbed onto that. So okay, where's that coming from? What is it doing? And I think it's that discomfort is where that's coming from.
Speaker 2:That's all. That's all right. On what specific questions do you have to help dig a little deeper? I think you were saying, anthony, about having a clear understanding of the why or what. Where would you like guys like to take this? I?
Speaker 4:Would Where's your Wi-Fi? I know we talked about family, but where's your Wi-Fi in this situation?
Speaker 2:She's stuck in the middle. She sees the three people, three people that she loves dearly, that are hurting, because she sees her father and her brother and her husband. But it's taken a lot of time and energy and therapy to get on the same page and stay on the same page. Yeah, between her and I we're strong. I mean, I feel like we're. Our marriage is very healthy. It's where we're very much, you know, intimately united. There are areas that we're still working through, like trying to really when it comes to like long-term future plans and goals and desires and dreams. You know, that's where we start to have some misalignment and we're and that's one of the things that's, I think, drives back to the anxiety piece, right? So, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.
Speaker 4:So, on a scale from one to 10 grade, you know 10 being great, one being horrible in regards to this situation within your marriage, where would you say that's a?
Speaker 2:Well, I wish she was here to answer that, because my answer and hers are probably totally different. But I mean, I would say some days it's a three and some days it's a nine. I think it's overall probably a six or seven, is that?
Speaker 1:because of her fluctuation or your fluctuation?
Speaker 2:I think it's more the circumstance or the topic or how you know yeah.
Speaker 2:And one other thing I'll insert here is this will help give some context and, I think, help the listeners. You know I'm very anti-medicine. I'm very much a purist at heart and kind of holistic, you know, in my approach of just the body, the human body, and so I was really against the idea of taking any kind of medicine to help, you know, with mental, with anxiety, with sleep, and so I was really anti that for a long time and hindsight being 2020, I would encourage, you know and this is kind of a rabbit trail, but this is a piece in the story I would encourage, you know, listeners to really take a second look at that if that's something to wrestling with. You know, for me it may have been pride, like I was big on counseling, like I met with my first counselor therapist about 11 years ago, and so I kind of swallowed that you know pride pill, so to speak, or took my slice of humble pie, but with the medicine it took me a while and it took really my therapist and my wife really pushing me to really look at that.
Speaker 2:And so with that I've tried three different meds for anxiety and the first two did not work and this last one is just now, you know helping. But the transition between those two meds, whenever you switch from one to the other, it's brutal, you know, for a week or two, and those times it really, you know it put a hard. It took us through some hard times within our marriage and within the family business, right Cause I'm mentally dealing with this stuff and have a chemical issue going on in my brain. But yeah, we can talk more, we can talk again for an hour about that, but so I think it's depends on the week or the month. You know what's going on.
Speaker 4:I just want to say this kudos to you for fighting for your marriage. Like we could sit and talk about the issues, but like it takes a real man to fight for that and to go through what you went through and I think not to miss that and what you've done. So back to my question with you and your wife. I even went back through some notes earlier just looking at some stuff and serving God, serving our wife, and then serving outside of that. And if we get too caught up in serving outside of that and miss serving our wife and hearing our wives, I think that can be very, very challenging. Right, you're serving a mission before you serve what God called you to serve first outside of him, which is her right.
Speaker 4:So that's why I asked the question of like, where are you out with this, where is she at with this? And you're fighting for an outside belief. At what cost? And at what cost are you willing to go to get what you want for an outside mission, right? So you're fighting to give all this away and at what cost is it costing you and your wife? So is it a pride issue? Is it? Is it because God wouldn't? I don't want to get it too much into this saying what God would or wouldn't do, because that's getting in a I don't know, as long as you're in court of verse, you're fine.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, don't be presumptuous, yeah, yeah so just I don't know, and I'm thinking out loud, so just letting that mission get in the way of hearing your wife and walking this journey with your wife and coming together and both of you working together and going back to that, either or in fighting for something you believe to get her. I heard it and I used to argue with people like crazy still sometimes today get into this and when they say you're right, you lost. And if she gets to that point to say, well, you're right, we should just give it all away. You didn't win, she just got sick of hearing you right. And then that's where death by a thousand cuts starts. And then whatever happens in your marriage, would you regret it that you won this and lost something on the other side?
Speaker 1:David, let me give you a little hypothetical scenario. If you were to become the CEO of this company today, what are the three things that you would change to make it in perfect alignment with what you desire?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I don't even know, I don't think I'm prepared to answer that question and I don't think and that's not a cop out, that's a I just haven't given it thought.
Speaker 2:From that regard, I think the big again, the big thing that's centered around me is the giving piece and I just I'm wrestling with that and I don't know from a as an investor I mean, we are investors, right how do you have a kind of a triple line, a triple bottom line, right, where you're having a financial return that makes logical financial sense on the investments and the stewardship that you're developing and investing in?
Speaker 2:But then also, how do you have a spiritual and social impact? And that's the big to me. That's the thing that I'm wrestling with, because, again, the track that we're currently on is very much a build bigger barns, and I don't see, I'm having a hard time seeing the kingdom advancing gospel. I'm having a hard time reconciling the Great Commission with the Hobby Lobby business model let's put it that way and the Hobby Lobby business model, at least in that regard you can say, okay, well, they're giving it's very evident, or at least they may use it as marketing, right, but they have an outward focus to what they're doing and I don't see that within our family business.
Speaker 5:David, how come you're in business and it's not in ministry?
Speaker 2:Well, I think my primary ministry is my family right and so how come you're not vocationally in ministry?
Speaker 2:Because God hasn't called me there. He's clearly called me Because well, if you really wanna know, it's a really long story but he almost took me to bankruptcy about 10 years ago and made it to where my only option was to work within the family business. That's number one. And then I spent the last year and a half really digging deep into is this where God has us and is this where God has us? And the answer has been yes. He's placed us here and he's placed me in the hot seat for a reason.
Speaker 5:So is the only reason you're thinking about changing, because you're discomfort.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not thinking about changing. I know God's placed me here, and here's the other kicker is that I'm not expecting my partners to change either. I'm not expecting them to change. This is something that's gotta be a change of heart within me. It's gotta be God doing something miraculous within the family business, and potentially it's the both and not either or. So potentially it's starting a similar type overlapping business outside of the family business that complements it, where we could pull in tandem alongside each other. But we have two different entities and that's what I foresee happening in the next one to three years. David, you're an equity partner?
Speaker 1:currently correct, you're an equity partner. Why can't you and your wife take whatever that percentage is and do whatever you want to related to ministry? Leave the remaining equity into the business, continue to operate, but it's and it's not either or Like we can do this. Do you feel like you have to be in control of all of the equity in order for it to be that, or do you feel like that you and your wife can just say this is our portion of the pie and we're gonna distribute it the way we?
Speaker 2:feel like to do. That's a great question and again I don't really know how to answer that. I think that would be really clean, nice and easy in some regard. But it's the DNA of the family. Businesses is a certain way, where we do everything together and we do it for the family. We're not building a company just.
Speaker 3:What does that mean? Yeah, if you're, here's the thing, man, I don't understand. Like, if you're called to this, why aren't you all in an alignment? Why are you anxious and there's no peace If you're called to this thing.
Speaker 5:Well, so here's the I'm not. I'm gonna throw more on this without getting any answers. What I thought was interesting and not big as a hey, what are these three? What are the three things you would do if you're CEO and you're like I'm not, I can't answer that question? I could have probably said that for you. I'm like I don't think he can answer that question, but why? Why can you? Or how come you can start your own thing and know what to do or know what the right direction answer calling all of that is. I think I'm with Kevin, I think I'm just speaking now, but like how is that gonna help?
Speaker 2:Right. So two different things. Yeah, back to Wally's question. You said if I'm called, why can't I just be at peace with it?
Speaker 2:I think the issue for me is is there's no, there's no logical, legal or long-term financial security. So the arrangement is it's grace in, grace out, it's you know, you came in naked, you leave naked. So it's a honor system, handshake. You know you're part of the family. When you're in, you're all in and everything we do together. It's kind of like the early church, right, everybody sold everything, they put everything together and anything that anybody needed they had, they had it, because we all take care of each other. But if God calls you out and you're out, then you know God's gonna provide a way for you and and he's got you know, and then that'll be okay. And so my thing is that doesn't give me, you know, long-term financial security for my kids and my grandkids. You know now it's okay, but what about 10, 20 years, if God you know where could that put my family down the road? And so that uneasiness, I think, is where the anxiety comes from.
Speaker 1:Sounds like that. You're all in if you can see a pathway for financial security. Correct, but they're all in, but. But you're not all in and trusting God implicitly if you can't see that sense of security for the family long-term, correct. It doesn't sound like all in.
Speaker 3:Help me understand like I feel like I'm missing something here. I get the sense of you know the due diligence that you did leading up to this call. So you put a lot of effort into answering a whole bunch of questions for us and I feel like some of those questions are good to the end is, like you had mentioned, that between you and your wife she's more of a saver, like long-term right, and you're more like get it done, get it out right, kind of thing, and I sense that's what you're talking about here as well, of like giving, I'm not giving, I'm not giving. And now you've switched to security. How do you reconcile those two thought processes?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great. I'm glad you asked that all the way. This is where it gets good. I think I've come to a place in my walk, in my journey with Christ, where he's the only security. Right. There is no security, and if you find your security in your business or your bank account or your even your relationships right, your marriage, whatever I mean that's all one phone call away from disappearing. And so this is something that I've been learning is fighting my security in Christ right. With that being said, as I'm investing my life into building something you know I want to build something I believe in. You know I want to build something that has a purpose, that I feel like aligns with my convictions and with you know where God's kingdom and what he's doing, and it's going to provide a future for my kids and my grandkids. So it's a common, it's a both and Future.
Speaker 3:in what way?
Speaker 2:A future, of a way to give them a starting.
Speaker 2:You know, the only reason I am where I am is because my grandparents, both my wife's side and my parent's side, were immigrants from overseas. They came over and they risked it all to come to the US and start, you know. And then all of our parents are strong believers and they've laid their life down and they spent 50 plus years, you know, investing to give me and my siblings and my wife and her siblings the life that we have. You know the opportunities that we have to be able to help others and to be able to have this foundation, and so I want to continue to build on that and I want my kids and grandkids to have that foundation where they can start on my shoulders and go up, you know. And so I know that's really vague and broad, but it's a combination of having a business structure where they have a platform to be able to build off of and have resources to build off of, but do it in a way that is aligning with scripture, in a way that I can agree with and believe in.
Speaker 1:So how's that? Contrary to the way that you described earlier, that the family was wanting to do, they're building bigger barns, but it sounds like there's more revenue, giving more opportunity to the children, the grandchildren, the great grandchildren. It sounds like it's very similar to what you just described.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is, and I think again in a previous conversation we had. We have the same or similar values, but our personal preferences are very different and so how we go about doing that looks very different and that creates tension and friction.
Speaker 3:Sounds like the autonomy Sounds like autonomy. Sounds like you desire more autonomy for the future of your family versus the autonomy. That's the key factor. Of course, you have anxiety, david.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:I was just saying, like of course you have anxiety, like how do you see a future? How could you see a future without, yeah, going against your own, what I'm assuming you would describe as your own conviction?
Speaker 2:Right. My wife has used the analogy of Jonah. There's times where I feel like Jonah and there's times I feel like Daniel, if you know the story in scripture. But there's this sense of like when you look at it from the outside, like, well, why don't you just go do this? It seems really simple, right, but it's almost like this is somewhere where God's placed me.
Speaker 2:And it's not that I don't. I love, or I dearly love, our family, and that's. The other thing is I'm fighting for reconciliation within the family and even other siblings that are no longer in the business. I'm fighting for them because there's brokenness in two of the other siblings that are no longer in the business because of these same issues. So I'm kind of like the last man standing, but I know that this is where God has me, and so it's this idea of like. How do you go to Nineveh and do what you don't wanna do and you do it in obedience, with a good heart and with peace? Or how do you serve the king Nebuchadnezzar and living in a land that you don't fully agree with, but and not jeopardize your beliefs and your principles?
Speaker 4:But Daniel got thrown on the lines then for having integrity and doing what God said, right, right, and everybody just looks at. He got thrown in the lines then and got saved, but it all started with integrity and doing and following what God said. So if you were Daniel and you obviously know what you need to do what are you gonna do, even if it comes at the cost of going to the lion's den?
Speaker 5:Are we talking about moral issues or are we talking about calling?
Speaker 2:Calling, not moral. Yeah, I'd say calling, I just wanted to clarify yeah, it's not ethical, it's not moral, it's calling. If you asked my wife, I think she would say the last 18 months we've been in the fiery furnace, we've been in it.
Speaker 4:So Between you and her or between you and the family.
Speaker 2:Between me and the family and then processing the burden of all this internally. We've got six figure medical bills and we've got over a team of a dozen doctors to back the claim. So, and several thousand hours invested in this conversation, so it's not. This is not a new thing, or a light thing, I guess.
Speaker 4:So so what? I don't wanna take all this time and not may personally not let you walk away from some clarity. Have you gained clarity? What question would you ask now, with what we've discussed?
Speaker 2:I think you guys have made some really good points that have brought up some other questions. I think it is calling, I think it is and it's reconciling that.
Speaker 4:Is it off the table to do your own business, to do what you want? Is that off the table Period?
Speaker 2:No, it's not, and we're actively talking about what that could look like and how I can help kind of do both, like serve in a reduced role within the family business and help them doing the things that only I can do they're non-delegatable task as a partner and then take the balance of my working time and invest in and building a similar type of business. It's non-competitive, that compliments it and it's kind of its own lane and do both. But even that creates its own mess. Right, is your wife work? She works with me, I mean she.
Speaker 4:In the family business.
Speaker 2:She homeschools several kids and she helps, not as an active no, she's not active contributor in the family business.
Speaker 4:no, If you got off this call and walked in there and sat down with her and said hey, I wanna start my own deal, I wanna protect your family, I wanna protect the relationship, I wanna protect our marriage so that we can achieve what I believe God's called me to do, what would she say?
Speaker 2:I think she would back me. But again, reconciling the fact that God's placed me, it's almost like again I'm in the belly of a whale headed to Nineveh.
Speaker 1:You know where I'm, David? How do you know that? How do you know this was God's calling on your life? What transpired and what's gotta happen for God to call you out, and how will you clearly know that?
Speaker 3:Before you answer that, I'll help the clarity here. I'm gonna align with that question and these may be one and the same, but I heard you say that 10 years ago, whatever that timeframe was that you felt a calling to, even though you said you would never be in family business. You felt a calling and you aligned with that family business and you went into that. A little later on in the conversation I heard you say he went bankrupt, which forced you to make some decisions Like help us understand an alignment with Big A's question. Was that part of the calling Was like one lead to the other, like how'd that work?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So again, that's kind of a weedy topic, but essentially they were one and the same. We did not go bankrupt, but we had the option to. Either we were already in partnership with the family business, and so we had. I had my own thing on the side, plus I was doing stuff within the family business and I learned some very valuable lessons, which we can have a whole other podcast about a lot of things of not to do, what not to do. But essentially we had the option to where either we had to screw the family and go bankrupt or we had to merge with the family and clean up the mess together. And that's what we did.
Speaker 2:And you know, god's redeemed all that and he's blessed us and we're far past all of that. But now we're kind of standing at a place where, you know, we all have kind of that financial foundation to kind of build from and we're building for our kids. You know we've kind of got our you know foundation built and we're building for our kids. And that's where the rub starts to come. It's like when we're talking about onboarding our kids and building the future of this, of our legacy, you know, for our kids, how are we gonna steward that? What does that look like? How are we gonna split it up? How are we gonna give you know?
Speaker 5:And that's where the issue is I don't think you answered Big A's question, but I'm gonna say something and then ask a totally different question, because I just want to interrupt here for a second, mostly because I'm not gonna remember what I want to say. One is change out of a need for necessity, so being cornered. I think God puts us in corner sometimes, or allows us to be in corners, however you wanna look at that and the need for change doesn't mean that it was from God. I think that, with application of prayer and seeking God tells us whether or not that's from God in an app move that we need to make, if it's the only door that opens, doesn't mean that that's the door that God wants us to open, in my opinion. Now, I'm not saying that for you, I'm just saying that out loud, kind of putting that out there, if you will. Here's my question, though, because I feel like there's something missing that I'm just not getting in this whole conversation, and so I'm gonna ask it in ways that maybe will help me.
Speaker 5:Does the company the family company currently have because we haven't asked this question? Does it currently have a VTO? Does it currently have mission, vision, values? Does it have the long-term 10-year plans? Is there establishment of that part of the operating system of the business, or is it? We're a family. This is the way that we've always done it, so we do it that way.
Speaker 2:It's the latter, and if it wasn't writing, I wouldn't agree with parts of it, which is why we're having this conversation.
Speaker 5:So this is now. I don't know all of the nuances here. That's where I would start. I would say let's figure out what it is and if you don't agree, that is your clear out. Hey guys, that's great, let's do it that way. I and you don't even have to disagree. You say that's great, that's what the we voted on. However you do, you come to your agreements.
Speaker 5:This is what we're doing. This is our 10 year target. Whatever you want to, whatever segment you want to use, this is our goal, vision, plan and our and the way we're headed, we're out, because this is our personal goal, vision, value, direction. There it gives clarity. I got off literally right before this call. I was on a call with a guy and he called just to talk about partnering with people, like some partnership questions, and they say clarity, just clarity, clarity, clarity, clarity for everybody. Know where everybody's at, know where everybody's at. And if we know where everybody's at, I can say I hope that this works out fantastically for you. My family is called to this because there's clarity on where you're at, where the company's at, where the company's going, and then you can you can have that clarity with your family and where you're going.
Speaker 1:I agree completely with Anthony's summary, and it's got to be written, it's got to be established the vision, the mission, the values, the way you do the administrative side of the business, the way you vote, et cetera. You can't run a multi, multi, seven figure business and not have that established because it leaves you in the sense of a quandary. Where you're at right now. You can.
Speaker 1:You can, you can, but always, always have what we're doing right now Right and I think that you're out, David. I think that's the greatest opportunity you've got as a result of coming into this man in the middle seat today is is we've got to have a baseline, We've got to understand what the rules are and we've got to have that in writing so that we all can make good decisions for our family.
Speaker 3:I assume you didn't mean out in the way that you mean out, but I think what's really important here is that gives you I'll add to what Big A was just saying out may mean different things, have definition and maybe something else, but it gives you the correct path to be able to make the best decisions for yourself and for your family and for the business 100%. So are you saying that? I don't want to pull Roger in your mouth? Are you saying that like is the? Is is legally the business? Like is there? Like documentation that you are actually equity partner, legally signed and agreed on? Or is that like a handshake word of mouth to that's more of the latter.
Speaker 2:I mean, there there's legal, but it's it's not. I wouldn't bank on anything.
Speaker 4:So you're an employee, essentially to a family business? No, I'm not employee. Okay.
Speaker 2:It's, again it's old school.
Speaker 1:You're banking your whole family's future on a handshake Exactly, which is very dangerous. I would not do that. I would seek tomorrow to resolve this, even if it cost me the family relationship, because you said on the beginning your first ministry is to your family and if you know better and don't shame on us. Well and so I think he's got to address these things to protect his family.
Speaker 5:In addition, you can't protect the other family members. You can't help his family Well, even the other family members, like if he's got his family all protected in a good spot, great, but he can't also protect sister-in-law X or brother-in-law. This if there's no clarity and there's no definition, I'm just saying his family, his wife, his children.
Speaker 5:I'm just throwing on top of that Like you can't live into protecting the rest of the family or family relationships if there's not clarity. And that clarity I literally I kid you not like an hour ago I'm like I doesn't matter who has what. Yeah, it does matter, but it doesn't just have clarity on who has it or doesn't have it, or where it goes. You know, have your owner's meeting, have your non, have your business structure meetings all that stuff needs to be put into place. Like I literally flew out just a couple of days ago and did this for did an annual meeting for a company and there was lack of clarity on ownership versus company and we just worked through that.
Speaker 5:So what I'm trying to say is even a company that's been around for a while, who has had that in the past, they had it, had it in the past, they got away from it. Just reestablishment and application of that Cause. That creates clarity and removes so much confusion as to why are you making this decision, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this to me? Well, it's no longer a personal doing it to you. This is, this is how we do it, because this is what we established. Now I'm not doing it to you anymore.
Speaker 4:Does this fix the anxiety? If you got all this solved, do you believe that that would be a huge step in your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, unfortunately, everything you guys recommended just now is unfortunately. I've known that for a long time and I've that's. That's what's brought me to where I'm at now is that I don't realistically foresee that happening, and I've that's what I've been fighting for and trying for the last year and a half, and so I've kind of had to accept this is where God has me and try to reconcile that and then build for the future with that in mind. So, yeah, I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:So you've done everything that was just recommended.
Speaker 2:I've done everything. I did that a year and a half ago, yeah. So what's next? That's the question.
Speaker 4:That's why I'm here.
Speaker 5:Could they hear what you were saying?
Speaker 2:I believe so yeah, but do they care? I believe. So yeah, I don't think they're capable of, I don't think they're capable of providing what I need in writing, legally. So so yeah, again, it's like Jonah right, it's like you know, it's not a want thing, it's a.
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Jonah had pretty clear instructions, just saying yeah, david, if it were me I'm not suggesting you did this whatsoever I would have to go back and evaluate whether that was a calling or a safety net. If it were me personally evaluating the callings in my life, I have to look at the motivation, what was behind it, what was happening at the time, and was that a clear direction from God or was that a safety net at a time I really needed it and I would have to pray through that.
Speaker 4:I could be wrong, but I get a feeling of, if I don't stay in this and maybe this is your wife, I don't know your wife but if I don't stay in this and do this and live through this, well my kids and well myself and my wife miss out on this empire that's being built by my family.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. But it's not really the empire. It's not about the money, it's about the relationships you know. It's about the.
Speaker 4:You can have relationships without being tied to the assets.
Speaker 2:Yes, but when? When everybody is doing things together and you're not? You know, when they spend 50, 80, 90% of their awake time working on a certain project together, and it's what they do.
Speaker 4:You're not doing it together, right. You're agreeing to do it how they are, point blank. You're not doing it together. You're just following them, right, and you're measurable and you have anxiety and you've spent tons of money. That's not. You're not doing that, right. That's my thought, yeah.
Speaker 1:No you're right on. So, david, is there a succession plan?
Speaker 2:That's what started this whole thing a year and a half ago. You know is looking at.
Speaker 1:Is that yes or no? No.
Speaker 2:There is yes and no. I mean there's a succession plan in what regard for for my generation?
Speaker 1:In regards to, well, I mean, who's going to be running the company once the president CEO is gone? Who's?
Speaker 2:going to lead it. He's currently leading it. When he's gone, who's going to be leaving it? Oh, I'm the only one left. It's it's really just him and I, so it's we're. It's just him and I, so I've got his back. He's got my back. You know, if I die, he's going to take care of my kids. If he dies tomorrow, I'm going to take care of his kids and his wife you know, and that's. That's a clear understanding.
Speaker 1:That's another handshake deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I do have a will and a state and all that and that's in writing. But yes, that's the handshake deal. It's family right. We take care of each other If something happens and we're going to be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been in similar family situations before.
Speaker 1:The handshake deal was good until the chips were down and all of a sudden, there was a different calling in their life and they went a different route and the money became first and foremost. Yeah, I would suggest first and foremost, as we conclude today, that you need to have these things in writing, and I can't even imagine a business person being unwilling to do that. I would need great clarity as it relates to the mission, the vision, the values, what we're going to do with the resources. I would have to be in alignment with that or I couldn't participate because you would go against your conscience and that's taking care of your wife and your children first and foremost, and you're really not doing that right now. You're not because there's nothing really in writing and all that could go away tomorrow. So I think there's some things that we have to do in order to protect our family, to substantiate what you said was important and that may come at the risk of you not being there any longer, and personally I'd be okay with that.
Speaker 5:Well, that would give clarity on your exit. That's where I'm at Like everything. Like. It sounds to me like you're like yeah, I'm not going to agree with them. Great, no, for sure that you know that you disagree with them because it's on the piece of paper that's what I was like Cause.
Speaker 5:Then you can say, hey, I disagree with this Cause. I'm kind of with kind of where Brett was going. Like what's a relationship if you're being manipulated to stay there in a way that you don't want to be there? That's not really a relationship where that's family or not. That's a manipulation of some sort, right.
Speaker 4:I just going to say this. And you said you got your brother's back or brother in law, whoever it is family member and they got your back. If you went to heaven today and stood before God, would he say that you had his back and he had your back because he called you to this? And if you truly believe that he called you to this, was you putting something before what he truly called you to do to build that ministry? So you're going to have what God called you to do his back, or what somebody else wants out of a business. The other thing I'll tell you is reading through all those, probably, memories.
Speaker 4:Years ago I had the similar opportunity a family and, to be honest with you, thinking through and looking at what you have been through, if I would have made the decision to do what you done which is what I would have done I think it would have been detrimental to my marriage, to my family, and I would probably be in a very similar situation. I guess I say that to say, setting from the outside, looking in, very, very similar to what you're in right now. There's freedom on the other side and I've had to make some really hard decisions, even in the last couple of months in regards to this. That was very detrimental even to where we're at and we're not partners and made the hard decisions that I think that you may have to make at some point, but we have family.
Speaker 1:David in man in the middle scenarios historically, we say what is the next right step? What would you say is your next right step after your man in the middle today?
Speaker 2:I would say just honestly reviewing all this with my life, probably having to listen to it, and then just praying about the next action step. I think I've probably done everything you guys are thinking about multiple times in writing and in person as far as it relates to communicating with the family and the members. So it's just a matter of taking, you know, just praying through and fasting and that next leap of faith, that next step of faith. I don't know what it's going to look like, honestly, but there has to be closure to this soon. So I didn't answer your question, but that's talking over my life. Pray about it and there's going to be an action step that's going to come of it.
Speaker 1:Anthony. Any closing comments before we go?
Speaker 5:I was just going to go on. That is, if you've done it. It kind of like the whole parent-child concept, right? If I tell my kid not to do something but I don't punish them, when I say I was going to punish them, or whether the case may be, that sounds like what I hear here, which is you've told them but then you didn't do anything. Well, david's not going to do anything, whatever. Read this stupid thing and move on. Okay, whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's just talking. Let him talk, we'll be done with him. Whatever it is. You're standard Cause.
Speaker 5:I heard that way back at the beginning when it was I would never join my, would never join the family business. And then you join the family. Then the story keeps going you join the family business. To me that was like an automatic red flag. Now there's other places to that. We don't know, right, there's more scenario to that. But not doing what you say you're going to do is going to create their dependence on doing exactly what they're doing. They have no need to change, right? Good?
Speaker 4:work, yeah, um, I don't know.
Speaker 4:I think about what my wife and I went through in regards to a similar situation and I think my biggest failure in that was selfish desires financially or business when I should have really manned up and led and protected her from that situation and I allowed things to happen that allowed her to be hurt by the family and truly God called me in it in it allowed her to be hurt because I wasn't her protector in that situation in regards to her family and that's her family and she should love them and she should be able to go to every event, every party, and be around them and not know what you've been dealing with in the background.
Speaker 4:And if you can keep that separate and keep that protected and not put her through that, that's one thing. But I couldn't and I should have stepped up a long time ago and created separation. That's what I think about in all this Like, if she's anything like my wife, protect her at whatever cost, whatever you lose, whatever you don't get an inheritance of it, and this goes down and you're in the will and all that like protect her that she doesn't have to live through regrets and getting this stuff and it's like, well, I get all of this and all of this real estate or these businesses and I just think back of all the misery I went through and what I missed out with my family for this. So Wally.
Speaker 1:any final comments? Yeah?
Speaker 3:I want to say first of all, david, thanks for showing up today and being able to sit through this you mentioned. You've got lots of hours and you've been through the ringer and other conversations as well, so you've put time and energy into that. So, way to go, I would come back to the. I love Anthony's point about clarity. I'm making some observations here. I don't know, I don't know every little detail, we haven't had time to go through all of that but typically someone that's not willing to come to the table and even in this situation, I think, man, if the vision is longterm, generational, they should want to protect that, like this bottom line. That's the revision, that they need to protect it. And so maybe it's about that, it's not about you, it's about that. And if that's not enough, to get some type of some things written down and agreed to and legalized, so there is an actual plan of how things really work and whatnot.
Speaker 3:It's probably a control issue, right Like the back, does they have the red button and you don't? And if that's the case, you're always going to be fighting this and you've got to make a decision of like, because your anxiety I'm guessing root cause comes from your inability to move this needle and so you've got to make a tough decision. You're in or you're doing something different. I mean at the end of the day, like if you can't influence change toward an end where there's something written down and you can get clarity. Like Anthony said, you have to make that decision at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:And I'm with Brett the as hard as it is, and again, I know there's, I know there's tentacles and there's other things going on right there's. You try to unwind things. I get all that. But at the end of the day we all know, like, what is it that normally causes us that tips the scales? It's usually one decision and it's all mental, and so at some point you're going to be faced with that and my prayer for you and your family is that you know God blesses it and you're able to influence change and for the right reasons and all of that, and you get that clarity and then you're able to make good decisions. And if not, if that's not how it falls out, then you're able to be bold and courageous and borrow courage from your ISI brothers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, David, I'll end by saying thank you. It takes a lot of courage to be man in the middle, to sit there and just be plummeted with questions and try to defend yourself. Yet take heed to some of the wisdom that these guys have shared with you, and I'll leave with just two parting thoughts. First and foremost, there's no tangible possession or title worth your piece. The anxiety at some point is going to build within you, a sense of bitterness and anxiety that's going to be difficult to overcome with your family, and so I would just really evaluate, first and foremost, going against your personal convictions, because you, being a man of God, know that when we do go against our convictions at sin, and you certainly don't need to go down that path.
Speaker 1:So I would just implore you and your wife both to sit, get on your knees before the Lord and say what is it that you're calling us to? Because you're not the author of confusion. You want me to do my very best and use my skills and my talents, and right now I feel like I am in Nineveh, and you know I don't need or want to be there, and so it's been very, very good for me to see the interaction of this group and their love and concern and compassion for you and hopefully this hour episode has been beneficial and helpful to you. So, those that are listening out there today, just think through it in your own scenario. If you're contemplating going into a business, or if you're currently in a business, just think through some of the things that you need to do in order that you can be highly successful and significant, so you, too, can have that view from the top.
Speaker 3:Thank you all so much for listening in today your episode of the Forge. Hopefully you found it was pretty amazing and helpful for you guys. Hey, if you want to get involved more in the view from the top podcast and even start conversation and communication around topics like we talked about today with David, go ahead and head on over to viewfromthetopcom slash group. That's viewfromthetopcom slash group. That I'll take you to a private Facebook page where you can join that group and start joining the conversations that we're having even more in depth than we're having here today. We'll see you next week.