90. THE FORGE: How to Argue With Your Wife

“The mess of wrong timing is nearly always better than holding it [in].” Has it been a struggle wondering how to bring up certain issues with your wife? Do you ever wonder whether you should let an issue go or really hash it out? Today the four of us in THE FORGE explore how different couples manage difficult conversations, highlighting the importance of timing, patience, and humor in maintaining a healthy relationship.

Key Takeaways:

• How to communicate effectively with your personality type
• How to make up after an argument
• When do you "let go" of an issue or when do you address it? 
• The culprit that starts an argument

Ever wondered how addressing conflicts head-on can transform your marriage? Join us in this enlightening episode of View From the Top, as we equip you with essential strategies for navigating difficult conversations in your relationship. Discover how to effectively talk with your wife through real-life examples and expert advice from Anthony Witt and Brian Lawrence. 

Connect with Anthony Witt:
witthouse.com or anthonywitt.com
Anthony Witt is a professional licensed counselor and a business owner with a deep understanding of how entrepreneurship impacts personal health and those around them. Having bought, sold, and started multiple businesses, he has gained valuable
experience at the intersection of personal health and business. His belief that "a healthy business owner creates a healthy business" underscores his approach to helping entrepreneurs thrive.

Connect with Brian Lawrence:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianelawrence/
https://www.winsightmasterminds.com/
Brian is the owner and founder of Winsight Masterminds. Leading a business can be overwhelming. "As an entrepreneur with a family, I know how important it is to surround yourself with others who understand what you're going through. Since 2016 I've led over 2,500+ mastermind calls and worked with hundreds of business owners who don't want to leave their success up to chance."

Connect with Big A and Wally:
View From The Top Website: https://www.viewfromthetop.com/
The Climb Newsletter: https://www.viewfromthetop.com/climb
Big A’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronwalkerviewfromthetop/
Wally’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwallenbeck/
Iron Sharpens Iron Community: viewfromthetop.com/community

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to View From the Top podcast, where we help growth-minded men who desire momentum in their business, their family and their finance get through the valleys and up the mountain to their very own view from the top. Thank you all for being back with us today, and for today's episode we're going to turn it up a notch. We've invited a couple of seasoned married guys running businesses to join us as we get into the always colorful topic of having difficult conversations in our marriages. Matt, as married business owners, leaders and entrepreneurs, there are definitely normal challenges in communication, and there's also some really unique challenges I think we face as forward-thinking, growth-minded men. So join the convo today as we dive in. Let's welcome in Anthony Witt, brian Lawrence and, of course, the host with the most big A Welcome men, wally. What's?

Speaker 2: 0:57

up. Good to see you guys. Anthony, brian, how are we doing? Good to be here, excited to be here.

Speaker 2: 1:03

Yeah, yeah, hey, it's pretty cool. We're all like local folks, like we got middle tennessee covered right now, the north and the south side, so, uh, pretty far. Brian, you know, if you guys in the south side of nashville had the lake, y'all wouldn't even speak to anybody. But because we have the lake up here with kevin and anthony, like, uh, people from brentwood and you know, south nashville, they have to come up here with Kevin and Anthony, like people from Brentwood and South Nashville, they have to come up here to enjoy the lake.

Speaker 3: 1:28

That's the only reason we're friends.

Speaker 2: 1:29

You're right, just because you guys have a lake and we got to get up there sometime, yeah, and you don't have it. Man, it is so good to see you guys today. Is this not incredible weather that we're having? This is like San Diego landed in Nashville, tennessee. This is so, so awesome, hey, I'm excited about today.

Speaker 2: 1:50

We do this normally We'll bring on a guest and mask them and, you know, mask their voice and we'll have a conversation, but periodically we'll do topical discussions and today, on the Forge, it's going to be a topic. We're going to discuss something that, out of a necessity, quite honestly and I'll explain here just in a few minutes but we're going to be discussing how to have difficult conversations in your marriage, or those that are listening to this, that are not married yet. Just prepare, because you'll need this information in later years, and so, but before we do and I'm saying this selfishly I need to know what each of you's strategy is for how to make up with your wife after an argument Like what do you do, brian? We're going to start with you. What do you do when you have this argument with your spouse?

Speaker 3: 2:43

So what's funny is that we actually just got twisted a little sideways this morning about something.

Speaker 2: 2:48

This is good. This is good, it's fresh.

Speaker 3: 2:51

It's fresh. There was something last night or this morning and I either got bigger or I was moving a chair. She said to do something. I moved a chair and I moved it a little bit more, like I was trying to make a point and I wasn't, and I could just feel the air got tense and I'm like, ah, geez, there it was. I did something like and I knew what it was.

Speaker 3: 3:09

And one of the biggest things I've actually taken, I listened to a guy he's like a friend and mentor, Steven Mansfield, a couple of years ago, and we've adopted this idea of just tiny explosions intentionally made keep bigger explosions from happening. So I, just as much as I don't like it, I try to hit it head on and just go directly while it's still happening or right after given a minute to breathe, and say, hey, this thing just happened. I didn't intend for this to happen, but I know that this came across that way and I'm sorry. Like I just try to own it as fast as it can, Cause the longer it festers, I find that in our home like the worse it gets. So I just try to hit it head on.

Speaker 2: 3:50

Well. So the question, though, was how do you make up? Like you just owned it? What do you do to make up is what I want to know. Well, first of all, I got a question. For the question, though, like do you own it regardless? What if it's her fault?

Speaker 3: 4:12

You own. For the question, though, like do you own it regardless? What if?

Speaker 1: 4:13

it's her fault, you own it anyway. There's a handful of different strategies in that, at least in our home. But like, did you just wait, wait, wait. Did you just use the word strategy in front of like how you're making up with your wife?

Speaker 3: 4:18

like to me. Owning it, like usually is the making up, like a lot of the times is, when we own, it's like it de-escalates and we're able to say like hey, I'm sorry, I own it like okay, and at that point we've moved on, like there's not really so.

Speaker 2: 4:35

That is your strategy. But what if it wasn't your fault? What? What if you didn't? What if it wasn't you?

Speaker 3: 4:41

so a lot of the times, that would then bring up the conversation, or at least the thing of like hey, when this happened, I received it this way. When this happened, I perceived like it's more of like how it came across, like trying to use that language without accusing, but still saying like hey, something's not okay, um, and then that allows us to engage in the conversation that way. But it's either a hey, I blew it, sorry or a. This is what Help me understand this, because I think this I know you didn't intend for it to be this way, but this- is how it's coming across, okay.

Speaker 3: 5:15

I could totally. I just got to call it what it is Brian.

Speaker 2: 5:17

You're straddling the fence on me here. That's what I'm saying. You're being politically correct, and so, anthony, we're going to move you. We're going to come back to Brian in a minute.

Speaker 4: 5:26

Maybe I don't understand the question, but my answer was X-rated. Like we go to the bedroom.

Speaker 2: 5:33

Okay, that's a good place to end up Straight to the bedroom You're like okay. Well, sometimes Okay, that's pretty good. I need to learn a little bit more from your strategy, well.

Speaker 4: 5:45

I have the effects of straight to the bedroom as well.

Speaker 2: 5:48

Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean, I think that's what you're no romance, no letter, no flowers, no kiss, no, nothing. It's just like, hey, we just got in a fight.

Speaker 4: 5:59

We're going into the bedroom. Yeah, so are actually overcoming it for both of us. Is some type of physical touch probably? Oh cool, like holding each other or something like that. Does that happen all the time? No, are we both?

Speaker 2: 6:14

Anthony, you're a blessed man. This is something that I'm just learning about you after 10 years Like this is pretty cool. Why did you bring this out 10 years ago?

Speaker 1: 6:21

Where is this information being? I guess in the mastermind he could bring that out, this out 10 years ago, like where's this information? I guess in the mastermind he could bring that out.

Speaker 4: 6:26

I'm saying like it's like I wasn't hiding like yeah, yeah, I'm just saying like that's probably our we, we, one of the big, the biggest thing with with marriages is is application of connection, right. So if we can use that application of connection is not necessarily physical. It's. It is physical, it can be, but it's not for us. It just happens to be so when we make up, if I hold my wife, if we hug, if we sit next to each other with my arm, you know that that is an application of connection for us. If we make up and I sit on the chair and she sits on the bed, we didn't make up.

Speaker 3: 7:02

Well this feels like it's love languages, like gary chapman kind of stuff, like are you guys both physical touch and she's not, oh, which is interesting, but yeah, it does sound like chapman type stuff, right.

Speaker 4: 7:15

So, but that's our, our actual approach. If we actually work all the way through it, which doesn't't always happen. If we don't move towards physical connection in some form, we probably didn't work through it, we probably didn't solve it Right. So if I don't and most I mean I'll be honest I'm the one that puts my foot in the mouth, and you know, I've got an amazing wife that I do it the most. So it's it's my move to make, and so I have to make the move. And it's quite often because and I think we might get into this she's the chaser and I'm typically the runner in our family, and when it comes to I'd rather not talk about I'm like, forget it, and she would, she will chase me down like a dog. Um, it's my responsibility to turn. She gives me the space I desire. It's my responsibility to come back and that's how I come back leadership.

Speaker 2: 8:12

I like it wally what about you?

Speaker 1: 8:19

uh well, I'm like brian. It wasn't this morning, it was more tangible things Not that they don't matter today, like a note, flowers, things like that, I think. But the older we've gotten, the more mature in our relationship. Our makeup is more about like, how do I make up with my wife? Whether there's in conflict, okay, I don't know my wife.

Speaker 1: 8:43

Whether there's in conflict, okay, I don't know whether it's my fault, her fault, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, right, like we both come to a place where we're want to move things forward and that's just like communication with her that she feels solid and affirmed and who she is, and that I'm not going to carry this, I'm not going to drag this out anymore. Um, and that usually is like maintaining a calmness, like in my voice and, uh, definitely not any little innuendos about, you know, intentional jokes about what just happened or whatever, like kind of trying to kid your way out of it. You know it's not, it doesn't work with us, with her. So, yeah, just really that like making up is just that affirmation for us, that that communication piece at the end. Not that there isn't fireworks sometimes, and sometimes they're not.

Speaker 2: 9:41

We're getting old, so yeah, you know, that's a good thing that you just said uh, 31 years marriage right yeah, just last week. Yeah, last wednesday yeah anthony, and you're how many?

Speaker 2: 9:53

we're at 19 19 and brian will be 13 in about two weeks 13, okay, and uh, for me it's 44 next week, and so, yeah, that's a lot of marriage years on here. Well, praise God for that I know we got. What is that? 78, 90, 102 years roughly, or something like that, my math's not exactly right, that was fast math, over 100 years. Over 100 years. Let's see, that's 75, and yeah, yeah, so yeah yeah it was pretty good.

Speaker 3: 10:25

That was fast Matt, so I'll share mine. He just gets close, I'll share mine, Well, I got close anyway.

Speaker 2: 10:31

I didn't take the time, but I'll share mine how we make up. And, Wally, I just learned something else Me and you are 180 degrees polar opposites. It is funny stuff for us is how we work through it, and I learned this when we were dating. We got into a terrible argument and I went in the gas station and there was this pencil and it had this little fuzzy headed guy on top of it and you could hold it in your hands and do it real fast back and forth. Its hair would just get crazy. And so got in the car and we were in the middle of this fight and I just pulled it out of the bag, just rubbed it between my hands and the hair just went everywhere.

Speaker 2: 11:06

Robin cracked up, she just died laughing. She still got it. 44 years later, 45 years now, she still got that little thing. And so we laugh about it and little things like that even now if we can find something to kind of break the seriousness, and I'll even go to her and I'll go. You know it was all your fault anyway. So just something catty or just some sarcastic remark.

Speaker 1: 11:29

It really helps us.

Speaker 2: 11:31

Yeah, it really helps us kind of get over it. Yeah, or just something. Just some kind of like are you serious? Like we're arguing about this? All right, so I'm almost at the stage. So here's the reason we're even doing this Forge episode. All right, so I'm almost at the stage. So here's the reason we're even doing this Forge episode. Two weeks ago, of course, we recorded this a few weeks ago, but two weeks ago just for this application.

Speaker 2: 11:52

Two weeks ago, robin and I went out to dinner with some friends of ours. It was actually lunch. We went out to lunch and had a great time. Things were going amazing. We get in the car, we leave and we're driving down the road and we made a comment about our granddaughter getting married and some of the transportation things that we're going to be doing and how we're going to get there and this kind of thing. And I went Robin, that is not what we said. And she goes yeah, because my daughter Brooke and her husband Bill were here and we were discussing what we were going to do. Well, here's where I really messed up. Guys, I'm just going to own it. Okay, right here I said were you even in the conversation? Well, that was not the right thing to say, okay? And then Robin lost it. She goes what do you mean? So we get into it about that.

Speaker 2: 12:41

Well, that wasn't the worst of it. It was like we get home and I just like had enough, and there were some things that had been a burr under my saddle for a couple of years, like a couple of years, and the more I thought about it, the madder I got. And so one thing led to another and I said listen, you do this and you say this and I don't know why you do this. Listen, you do this and you say this and I don't know why you do this. And she goes well, the only time you do this is when this and I mean it got heated, it got bad. I even told Wally the next day. I said we probably have one of the worst arguments we've had in 20, 25 years. We don't argue much, we don't.

Speaker 2: 13:24

These past few months we have, we've been under a lot of pressure about some things I did. I did and that's the reason I want to have this discussion is like 44 years is a long time. I want to be happily married for the remainder of my marriage, and I know Robin does as well. But there's some real distinct differences in us. Personally, there's some mindsets that we have that are drastically different. There's some preferences that we have, and I'm like you know what? I'm just going to get it all out in the open right now.

Speaker 2: 13:55

Well, she did too. She found that was an opportune time for her as well, and so it morphed into a six-hour argument on a Sunday afternoon. And so I go outside, I spend the next six hours pressure washing my driveway, my patios, just to stay away. I cooled down, I was able to think through it, prayed about, it, went in. We were able to resolve these issues. So number of topics here. One of them that I want to cover is kind of timing and patience. So how do you guys deal with that? Do y'all wait two years? Are you very patient?

Speaker 1: 14:32

Can I ask a question before we go to that? Ask all you want, wally? All right, can we? Can we back up and set the stage a little bit? Like what, what types of hard, difficult conversations are we are we talking like? Are they just? Are they any difficult, hard conversations are they like? Like, what types of difficult conversations have we had, I guess, with our wives? Like that would be a great place to start yeah, yeah, okay, fair, fair enough.

Speaker 2: 14:56

yeah, I guess you it's good cover a broad spectrum of things and I guess, after 44 years, what might not be important to me may be real important to Brian and his wife right 13 years, and so I think that it's going to be hard to classify what's important and not important. Anthony, you were going to jump in.

Speaker 4: 15:18

Well, I don't want to derail our conversation, but I want to ask you you always do this Every time we have these calls and he's like I don't want to do this, but it's usually pretty good, but I'm going to talk what conversations are you not having with your wife?

Speaker 2: 15:33

yeah, I'm having like all conversations with my wife but I'm accepting a lot of things over time. That is like personal preference, like it's who she is as an individual. But I'm like I'm tired of hearing this or dealing with this or talking about this, and why do we keep on talking about whatever it is Like? That's not the way I operate. I'm like, do it, get it over with man up, let's go and forget it. Well, she needs a lot more compassion and empathy, sympathy, you know, all those things which I'm not real good at. And so we're having the conversation, but not to this level. That's my whole point. Should I just let it go? That's the reason I wanted to do this podcast is because, like you're saying, no Big A, you should just let her be who she is, Don't confront anything, Just let it go.

Speaker 4: 16:29

I mean, in your scenario, no, like, no. I don't think that's the right option. I would argue, I think this goes here, which is when we're talking about I know we're going to talk about communication a little bit, but I really do. My premise really is, kevin, when you asked your question, I say what conversations are you not having? Because if you're not having conversations, you're not, you're not opening a part of your life or part of who you are to your spouse. Is there timing for conversation? Sure, Is there applications of certain things? Yeah, but if you're not having conversations with your spouse on certain things, yeah, maybe details they don't care about. I mean, in our mastermind group we've talked about that, right, they don't care about those details. But if you're not having conversations with them about a topic, because of whatever reason, you're probably hiding or putting a mask on yourself.

Speaker 4: 17:22

Back to what I was going to say to you. Big A would be, when it comes to communication, though, because your question was timing. You know, timing, patience, patience, right, right, but I think that all the questions we're going to talk about today really come to communication, communication style and personality, Right. So Robin hears a certain way, you hear a certain way, robin speaks a certain way and you speak a certain way. That's four separate elements and none of them match. So now what do we do? Somebody, or everybody, has to change or move towards something, or we're not going to be able to have communication. Which means who cares if it's timing, who cares what conversation we're having? Because we're probably fighting in some respects, in everything that we're saying or in all of our things, because we're not matching. It's, you know, it's the. I don't like this scenario or this analogy, but it's, it's the, you know, it's the. Uh, it's the. You know, it's the pink tube and the blue tube. They're different things. Different things come out.

Speaker 3: 18:28

So I believe, but I believe there's something to be like. It's. It's more fundamental. The question is really like when we entered marriage, do we really believe that we are two that have become one, or are we just two existing next to each other? Because to the extent that I'm really believing that, hey, my wife and I are now two, become one, her personality is now part of my. You know, I say this lightly. Her personality is now my problem, my personality is now her problem and I value and care about the extent of getting to understand her more as we continue to grow alongside each other. And if there's things that I don't understand, the big thing that you said, big A that leads me to believe that, yeah, you do is, to the extent that there's a resentment, that means that there is an unmet longing, there is an expectation or something that you want to be different, and to the extent that we don't communicate it about it like, that means you care about it.

Speaker 2: 19:29

And to just shut up about it would mean that, like I'm, just going to get more and more frustrated until it bubbles over. So, like to me, you become apathetic at that point and when you have apathy, what really gets bad.

Speaker 3: 19:33

Well, and it's you and me rather than us, at that point like, yeah, well, it's you're saying that I don't like about it, I've got my stuff that you don't enjoy either. That's not partnership. So timing and patience to me like there's. So we're in the little kid stage of life. We've got four boys under the age of nine and the.

Speaker 3: 19:52

If you're around our house at all or if you're in the within the block of our home, there's always somebody yelling. Like it's, it's just happening. Like there's somebody shrieking or yelling, whether it's appropriate or not. Like somebody is always angry at something and oftentimes something can happen and I've made the mistake of bringing up the right thing at the wrong time. And she looks at me and she's like I'm being screamed at and hit right now. Now is not the right time for this conversation, as much as I want resolution. So for us like I completely understand timing that says I want to dog ear this I'd love for us to talk about this when we have more opportunity to. It's important to me to understand you, it's important for me to feel understood, but I realized that now is not the best time for it. Uh, otherwise I'm going to get like a what are you doing? This is not the right time, so I think timing's huge.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Brian, you may or may not know this. Uh, no, you you know, anthony, but you're about three or four kids behind because they have like caution tape up around their outside perimeter. The neighbors put it up. You know seven or eight kids there still there, it's like. So he can feel your pain. I'm sure completely so, anthony. So do you look at this, the timing and patience thing with Sarah? You're like, yeah, you've got her dialed in. You know when to be patient. The timing is not right, or when is the timing right for you and her?

Speaker 4: 21:14

Yeah, we have the curse and the beauty of having the jobs that we have both of us, and so we were both therapists. We both sit with other people's problems. We both learn from other couples making mistakes all the time, um, which is really helpful and really painful sometimes, but it's really helpful. For us it's twofold. She wants me to talk all the time. I never talk enough, like never, ever, right, we're never talking enough. So if I'm ready to talk, she's going to do everything she can to be ready to talk. Now, if she's like Brian was describing his wife, you know, if our two year olds, you know, whatever he's doing I don't know what he's doing, you know, trying to cut a sister's finger off or something bizarre, like she'd be like this is not the time, but she will circle that back as quickly as possible because she cause I mean her, you know, as a female, her deepest desire is for connection and be so. She yearns for that.

Speaker 4: 24:39

One of the things we've learned on personality I really push on personality a bit, not as an excuse, but just as a knowledge base is that she's the chaser and I'm typically. I want more time. I let me process that or whatever you want to call it Honestly, I just want to go on a run, like I want to go out, like you said, the pressure washer driveway, like I just want to like let me go do my thing. We have learned, even in our sometimes we've learned where I've come home and we'll start a discussion. She'll say, hey, you should just go for a run, like I found we. I'll say we found my coping mechanism together which is like, and I'm guys, I'm not a fit person Like she's, like we found out that it's like just go out and go for a run or pick something up and throw it Like, go physically, use your body. But we found that as COVID magazines for me.

Speaker 4: 25:30

So patience and timing for us sometimes means Anthony leave, and she knows that like she can call that out on me, um, and at the same time, sometimes she has to be patient for me to come back. And I see that a lot in the couples. I see, yeah, sometimes I get, I get two, two chasers which they have a lot of explosion. They can make it happen, but they have a lot of explosion. But it is almost man, it's. It's definitely on the bell curve that 98% of the couples that I see, one of them's a runner and one of them's a chaser, one of them's a freezer and one of them's a fighter, and each one of them wounds the other person. Based on those things, and so just the recognition that that exists for us has been huge, I'm not sure if that answers your question.

Speaker 2: 26:18

What about patience? Yeah, it does. It's good Patience for you. Timing.

Speaker 1: 26:23

I'm going to come back to my question. I asked you a while ago. It was like what type of difficult?

Speaker 3: 26:32

conversations. Are we having Right?

Speaker 1: 26:32

So, like Brian, to your point About your future, to your point, like, Brian and Anthony like their difficult conversations are probably going to be more in the moment because they still have kids at home, right? I'm not saying their problems are less or more, or they're just different, different Right. So Similar challenges, for sure, because we're still humans. But they're Go ahead, anthony.

Speaker 4: 26:59

I was just going to say. I think one of the differences is at least for me, I can't speak for Brian because I'm not going to be in his marriage. At least for me, I can't speak for Brian because I'm not going to be in his marriage is I have the ability. We both, my wife and I, have the ability to escape because we have so many things happening. So our defense mechanism, or excuse mechanism, if you will, are plenty so we can decide very quickly I can't have this conversation right now. That can be the catalyst for never having the conversation, and it's really easy to make that happen. Because why? Well, because tomorrow morning is a whole nother set of problems that is layered with multiple different personalities and humans and people in my house that, well, I have to help her. Right, we can. It's very easy to layer at this stage, at least for me, for us I'd say for both of us, because we both do this at times use it as an excuse mechanism.

Speaker 2: 28:00

I think this forge is valuable to the listeners, because we have empty nesters, we have, you know, co-host with multiple children and then co-host with ridiculous amounts of children. So we're covering everybody here in regards to the challenges.

Speaker 1: 28:17

But, wally, let me kind of answer your question. So timing and patience for me. I put off, I've put off a lot of hard conversations. I mean you just mentioned that you know you waited two years on some things right.

Speaker 2: 28:32

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:33

I've. I've done that as well, like numerous times where I just and some of it, some of it's timing right, like it and we're going to the next one is going to be like letting go versus addressing them Right. So that's, that's part of it. But on the timing thing itself, like there's seasons of life, depending on what those things are, and one of the hardest conversations, most difficult conversations I've ever had with my wife and it's still with Sonia and it still came up in our loud moments yesterday afternoon was roles and responsibilities within the home. Afternoon was roles and responsibilities within the home and that was a very difficult conversation to have.

Speaker 1: 29:13

To Anthony's point, we're different people, we grew up differently, we have different, even being married 31 years. Like some things I've never addressed in our marriage, I've never. The timing I didn't feel was going to be for multiple reasons. It could be just overall maturity. I'm not saying that we should withhold having conversations with our wives, but there are moments where it's like is this, is this really like the right time or should I wait? And there's things that or is the juice worth the squeeze.

Speaker 1: 29:43

Yeah, there's things that like you know there's things I'm sure that she's not withholding but but maybe haven't brought up with me at certain times because it's like, well, yeah, I'm going to wait for him to get there first, the timing on that and being patient. But that roles and responsibilities conversation around you know me working. Our kids aren't out of the house anymore. She doesn't have a J-O-B outside the house and so it's like there was some responsibilities and things I was doing in the house where I was like, wait a second, not because I I'm getting some real, real I'm sure a lot, I'm sure there's. I talked to a guy this morning, had coffee with a guy this morning. It has a very similar situation in his life, like empty nester and like just a wife at home and like trying to work through these roles, responsibilities. It's really tough. We're still working through that but it's still a challenge. But at some point I had to address it and I think the timing and patience part of it is knowing our spouse and there's probably one takeaway I've learned from other guys that I've invested time with over the years in the mastermind and other places is that making the right spaces for the right timing Right. If we do that proactively, then we're much better. We're approaching it proactively than we are just waiting until the heat of the moment. But do we create those spaces? Do we actually have a quarterly getaway with our wife and take a day, take some hours? Do we have a date night where, yes, there's time to have a date night, relax and enjoy ourselves? But is there also a time when we're intentional about our communication or relationship, versus just kind of in the throes we're just? There's seasons where it's like we just got to make it till next week or next month or whatever, like that's just reality. But there are, if we're not ever intentional about it, if we ever don't create the space.

Speaker 1: 31:42

My, my parents did something growing up which I thought was silly until now. Of course, parents get so much wiser as we get older. As long as I can remember, they got a babysitter for us or we went with my grandma or whatever over a weekend. It was usually like 48 hours Friday night and they came to church on Sunday morning, so two nights away. They literally went 16 miles away to a hotel and stayed the night for two nights and I was like, well, that's kind of really silly, usually once every six months that they had time together to reconnect, to be, make it meaningful to talk about. You know their challenges and things they, and so I think we can create spaces for good timing, for sure.

Speaker 2: 32:39

Well, in retrospect, do you think you would have been better off, it would have served your marriage better, had you addressed those issues when they arose?

Speaker 1: 32:47

Man, I'd love to put on 20-20 lenses. I really would. That would be great. That would be a fantastic thing to have. These are 20-20, but I can't go backward, so I don't.

Speaker 2: 32:59

I want to say yes. What would you tell somebody listening right now?

Speaker 1: 33:01

I don't know the answer to that. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 33:04

Anthony, do you think you're better off to having addressed it earlier?

Speaker 4: 33:09

So this is like the what is it? The pot calling the kettle black, or whatever the words are.

Speaker 1: 33:15

This is Anthony's clinical correct answer versus like what happens sometimes.

Speaker 4: 33:21

I told Sarah. She's like what are you thinking Just the other about an hour ago. I'm like, well, I was thinking about the podcast and she's like podcast, what is it? I'm like that's this. She's like, why are you on it? I'm like I don't know why. I'm like we're not doing this. Um, but it was a really good conversation actually, um, and now I lost my train of thought or where I was headed with that.

Speaker 4: 33:42

Oh, again, I have the privilege and the curse of sitting with other people that work through these things and then also applying it or doing it in my marriage. I have yet to see. Well, no, I'll say it, I'll say it differently. The mess of wrong timing is nearly always better than holding it in my experience and watching. Better than holding it in my experience and watching, because part of the mess of messing up the timing creates connection. Right, if you're turning towards each other, the mess and the hurt, even the hurt of the wrong timing, is a growth opportunity. So perfect timing and relationship.

Speaker 4: 34:26

We are all broken and we all are trying to push back towards this thing called being fully human, which is really this movement towards this thing called holiness, and we're all trying to get there, we're all going to hurt each other in the process, and I think that that's an important concept in marriage. It's what happens with those hurts If we try to like somebody one of you said it. I don't remember who said it, maybe it was happens with those hurts If we try to like somebody one of you said it. I don't remember who said it, maybe it was you big A, and I don't know who it was.

Speaker 4: 34:53

If a couple comes into my room and sits on my couch and say we don't fight at all, I say your marriage is horrible. I literally tell them that they're like we think it's great. I'm like you don't ever fight. Which one of you is lying to the other one, or both of you lying to each other? Because you're just hiding who you are, because you're different people. If we never and fight maybe is not the right word, maybe that's too strong of a word for some of us, but like, if you're never fighting, like you have a problem, a big problem.

Speaker 1: 35:21

If there's not any conflict, right Conflict.

Speaker 4: 35:23

We'll use the word conflict. I like that better. Right, like you're clearly not doing so. I'm my, my. I'll say my opinion. I mean that's what I do when I'm sitting in my room. Right, I said my opinion is, put it out there, like, let it out, even if it's the wrong timing. Now can we maybe work on some of the creation of correct timing. Like I look at you, kevin, I think of what I know about you and your personality, I say you shouldn't probably just blurt it out. It's probably not right like you, but you probably shouldn't wait as long as you do. That's just based on what I know about you. Right, like, because we're in a group together, so I know I know more things than the other people.

Speaker 4: 36:00

Right, I, literally, but with big a I would say, I would maybe say this just slightly opposite kind of a type of a thing. Right Again, I'm not trying to harp on personality, but I'm saying you know my personality is to hold it, so I know I need to say it, and then when you turn it loose, it's ugly, right, yeah, it's like.

Speaker 2: 36:22

I'm the one that said earlier we don't fight that much, and after 44 years you kind of figure each other out. You don't fight that much and after 44 years you kind of figure each other out. You don't fight as much historically. But when we do, it's a good one, like we could sell tickets to it. It's really good and so yeah. So, brian, let's switch gears for a second. So how do you and your wife, or how do you? You can't answer for her. How do you make the wife, or how do you? You can't answer for her. How do you make the determination? Or what is an example of something that you've really just let go? You just don't deal with it. Uh, or what is something that you might address? How do you figure out what to let go and what to address?

Speaker 3: 37:02

well. So when you say let go, it almost sounds like there's a you know we're we're sweeping it under the rug versus actually hitting it head on. And does everything matter though?

Speaker 1: 37:13

maybe it's does everything matter yeah, right, does everything matter?

Speaker 2: 37:16

right?

Speaker 3: 37:16

it's a good way to put it well I sometimes feel that unless you talk about it, it's hard to know if it really does like. We take the approach of like whenever there there's this whole like hey, well, we swept it under. There's some things that have shown up in conversations years later for us and we didn't know that it was an either unmet expectation or it was a pain or friction point until it bubbled over and somebody was like hey, uh, I haven't communicated this to you, this happened. Just I was telling you about this big hey. This happened a week or two ago where we got twisted in something and she looked at me and she's like, because I she's like this is something that I experienced four years ago and I realize it hasn't been fair because I've been holding this and I never told you about it. And this response is that and that's not fair to you, because you've had no idea about it, she didn't know that it was there until it was, and when it was there, we addressed it, we looked at it.

Speaker 3: 38:13

Personality being what it is, we are not the type of people that if something is there, we can't pretend like it is. Like it shows up in everything in our conversation. Our communication is short, our body language is harsh, our connection is off. Like for us to just bury it, um, it really actually isn't an option because it would impact everything else in our marriage. So if it's something's been buried, at least for us it's been unintentionally done so. So when it shows up for us, we're usually like, okay, that needs to be discussed. And I mean, if you guys looked at some of our conversations, you'd probably look at it and be like that was a useless conversation that wasn't valuable for them to have at all. But for us it was continuing to say the farther that we stray from level set and ground zero with one another. You know, that opens up chinks in the armor in so many different ways for us, and if we can keep that thing as tight as we can, it helps us to be able to be united in everything else.

Speaker 2: 39:15

There's other ways of looking at that.

Speaker 1: 39:17

Yeah, Well, yeah somebody said I don't know who said it, I've heard somebody say before there's a lot of clarity on the other side of a 10 minute conversation and you know if, and you know if I think back about the times that you said something Brian was interesting Like, and somebody asked me earlier, like if you hadn't waited to say that right, like I don't know if I knew to say, I knew it was an issue, I didn't know I needed to say it right until I did, and then I, then I was faced with really doing something about it. But, man, every time that we've, my wife and I have discussed, like there's guys listening right now that you guys do not, you don't talk about hardly anything, but let alone you don't talk about like deep things, like hard things, right, you don't want to bring it up because you know, you know what history tells you, which is that this is going to be terrible.

Speaker 1: 40:06

Yeah, and so I just avoid it. And therefore you lose to Anthony's point, like you lose meaningful connection when we don't approach conflict. I don't even want to say just hard things, but we don't. To Brian's point we don't approach things when we don't talk. We don't share our express, like our unfiltered thoughts and opinions in an appropriate way, and every time I've done that with my bride we've grown like leaps and bounds in our relationship every time if I think about it. But yet making that a habit like super hard.

Speaker 3: 40:50

I think we're afraid of conflict Like the word, even like when people say like, hey, well, conflict, or this idea of conflict, people automatically, without even like thinking about it, probably be like I don't want that and I can only imagine, anthony, from your side, like you're in the clinical space, where you're like dude, conflict is probably one of the healthiest things if you can do it well, to be able to unite and bring people close and actually establish deep trust. And yet I think that there's this whole like well, if we're at all at odds with one another, well, I'd rather say that we don't fight rather than say no, no, no, like we've learned how to fight well or we've learned how to have it in a healthy way. I think that we just we don't want to touch it at all and again, I'm not a therapist, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 41:37

We'll correct you if you say something out of school. So just so you know. I do want to give kind of a caveat to this though, and I think this needs to be stated If we're selfish in nature and it's all about our desires, there's going to be eternal consequences and difficulties probably never resolved. I think it's really important that we take on the role of being a servant leader to our wife and that's a new terminology to a lot of you, possibly listening, possibly some of you it's not. Once, I know Robin's heart is in the right spot. It makes those conversations much easier. But she's selfish in nature, she's carnal. I'm selfish in nature, we're carnal, everybody on this call is, and we've got to really check that and determine what is it that we're trying to accomplish? Is it to win? I've told this little story countless times.

Speaker 2: 42:43

Robin went on a trip and by the end of the evening I was kind of sulking. She goes what are you doing? What's wrong? What did I say? Nothing, nothing. And finally she goes hey, what did I do? I said it's what you didn't do. She goes well, what didn't I do? And I said well, look at the house. I said it looks like a museum, like everything is perfect. She said well, I have a question. And I said oh, what is it? She said did you do that so I would recognize you, or did you do that because I needed the help? I said I wanted you to recognize me. And she said if you would do it because I needed the help, I probably would have recognized it. But I knew you did it so that I would recognize you.

Speaker 2: 43:27

And it wasn't a servant leader's mindset, it was a selfish. My motivations were impure and I think that's the culprit to a lot of our arguments is like we want what we want, not what's best for the relationship. Anthony, so how do you and Sarah, how do you? I keep saying your wife, they're not here. We should have invited them, right, this would have been even more interesting. But do you just let things go Like you're a counselor and you know the right thing to do? Is there some things you're just like ah, it's just not worth it and you let it go? Or do you address every issue? Sounds like Brian's on the page of hey, we talk about these issues when they come up.

Speaker 4: 44:06

You do the same. No, I mean we screw up all the time and don't talk about stuff, or don't go through things, or don't let things go. We should. Whatever it is. I mean, the dirty little secrets are.

Speaker 4: 44:22

My profession is we're some of the most messed up people that there are, and it's not because of the people we see, but no, we don't. It's. What we've learned, though, is we've learned who we are, but we've also and we don't do this one right all the time we also give the person. I make this sound like this is something we always do when this happens. It's it's it's hard. We recognize that the other person has the right to change. You were always this way. I married you cause you were this way. You're no longer this way. I don't know what the change period is, but it's every so often. It's a big change, a massive change, and you're a different person, and we work through those things. Again, messy man, we're messy fighters. We're not clean fighters, we're not good fighters.

Speaker 4: 45:17

Now, I was going to bring up examples. You give your examples, big A. My wife and I have done multiple like marriage conferences, kind of across the I don't say coastal country, but in multiple different States. We've done these marriage conferences at these churches and we have a picture of the top of her dresser and the top of my dresser that we just put up there.

Speaker 4: 45:37

Like whose dresser do you think is whose? And my, my, I'm the clean, I'm the clean freak in our family by like a million and a half comparatively, and I'm not even that clean, but like a lot. Like it irritates the crud out of me when she just has stuff on top of her dresser, like it drives me nuts for why I would like I would organize the top of her dresser because I'm like this is crazy. This is one of the things. I wrote this down, cause you know, you gave us the questions beforehand. I wrote down like this is one of the. I've learned to let that go. Like you know what, it doesn't matter, like it doesn't matter, it really doesn't. It drives me crazy. She knows it drives me crazy and sometimes she cleans it just because I want her to Like that's the reason. Twice in your 20 years, yeah, twice in our 20 years, but that topic.

Speaker 2: 46:36

I would say you just let it go. You're like I'm not addressing this anymore, I'm letting it go.

Speaker 4: 46:40

I'm going to let it go and I have to constantly work on letting that go. And that topic of like picking up and cleaning I mean we have, we have an orphanage basically here. Like we have kids everywhere sleeping in every crevice and like there's stuff everywhere. I hate clutter. Like I wear the same shirt we talked about this in the pre like all the time, like I can do the five outfits for the year and be fine with it. My wife is the complete opposite in that respect and so there's given. Take on that. Sometimes I have to give and then sometimes she gives and has to give and so I I would say we let it go.

Speaker 4: 47:25

But that is one of those things, honestly, the cleanliness thing you brought it up, like with Robin, like that's one of the things. For us it's always going to be a topic, but when I'm in a healthy space, because it always has, it also has to do with me. Like Brian, you brought up something earlier. I was going to say you brought up the concept of becoming one. Right, I would say, yeah, I think that's correct. But the problem is, most people go, we become one and they lose their identity or they never become one and they only become individuals. I would argue that there's creation of a third thing and that third thing we move towards. We still have our individualness, so we are always moving towards healthier marriage, but we also have to work on being healthier individuals, which is not allowing things that bother us, that don't matter In my opinion as a Christ follower, that don't have eternal value, like, yeah, it does bother me, but I need it. It's better that she's sitting on the couch praying with my kid.

Speaker 2: 48:19

Than cleaning up her dresser. Yeah, that's good. Wally, what do you do? How do you let it go?

Speaker 1: 48:30

I think again, the older I get, I try to be very I'm not going to use strategy but tactical and kind of what Anthony was saying, like the things that have value, the things that don't. But it's hard, I mean it's, it's really difficult. Some conversations. You know, when you're talking with somebody it depends on what it is Right. So you know, if it's the fact that you know the toothpaste gets whatever, or you know like okay, like come on, are those difficult conversations? You know like okay, like come on, are those difficult conversations? And it might be for some people, depending on where they've come from in life, that may be a really big deal and hard to talk about. You know we're talking about intimacy in the bedroom. Those are really hard conversations. They can be really difficult. Some of those I think we can let go. But I think, with Brian, in the sense that Anthony mentioned, do they have eternal value?

Speaker 4: 49:33

I agree with that wholeheartedly. It's a cop-out answer sometimes, though.

Speaker 2: 49:36

That's a great spiritual answer. I love that. But practically speaking, you have to look at that dresser every day when you go in there.

Speaker 1: 49:43

Yeah, but I think I think, letting the older I get the, the things, to Anthony's point, that are just kind of selfish and like they're not going to move the needle, like I'll suppress them for a while and then I'll have a moment where I get frustrated and then you know we have a little spat and we're fine and we move on Right and, and there's something like that with me, with her, and, and those are just normal, like two people are not going to be perfect. There's no utopia. But those difficult conversations for us, like we have to address them, like it matters. When you say that they have eternal value, I think you know our, our children, whether they're in the home now or our grown kids right, like people in our life group, like they're looking at us, they're paying attention to what we're doing and how we're doing it. And I'm not we've talked about it before on the podcast Big A like I'm a pretty big proponent of being transparent Obviously we do this podcast Like I'm pretty, pretty big proponent of being transparent in our marriage to other people, including our kids, appropriately, because man, like the things that we're learning, like other people can find appropriate people can find value in that and learn from and through that Not that they won't make their own mistakes, but man, those things can have eternal value because at the end of the day, like if we're following after Christ, likeness in our marriage and we're asking for forgiveness and we're working through conflict because it's there and at the end of the day, like that has roots in the gospel and so the gospel is eternal.

Speaker 1: 51:35

And so the older I get, the more it's. And I've leaned into some really heavy conversations. I mentioned roles and responsibilities, intimacy. Those are probably some of the harder conversations that we've started to work through and dive into and we're not going to let them go. I'm not going to let them go. They matter too much. Those things matter. My relationship with my wife matters and, and you know, eternity matters.

Speaker 2: 52:06

Last topic just for a couple of minutes effective communication Like uh, Brian, like what do you and your wife do to make sure that you're having these conversations? Like and you got a bunch of kids, Anthony's got a bunch of kids, Wally and I are empty nesters now, so it's a little easier for us. But for the people that are listening, that have kids still at home, like, what advice do you give them on effective communication?

Speaker 3: 52:32

as you guys were talking. As it relates to effective communication, I think it's important for me at least to be able to say like a lot of my motivation behind doing all this. And, uh, I've watched too many of what I would call like the old guys and the old men that don't talk and that are just crotchety and just that, just shut up and that the world is just wrong and it's everybody else's fault. And I've watched too much of that in my social circles either people in family or not and one of the biggest motivations to my communication is that I will not be that old man and I will not make everybody else's you know my problems everybody else's fault. I'm not going to make everybody fish for my compliments, you know. So to me this is an active fight against the old man who, I think unintentionally, can come our way and so, like these, this communication, this conflict we talk so much because I'm like I will not be that and I've seen it, I guess some of the strategies that we've had in there.

Speaker 3: 53:38

It actually comes from a book my wife and I read. We went to a conference a couple of years back. It's called Voice of the Heart, written by Chip Dodd, he's a therapist, he's out here in Nashville and he talks through the eight core emotions, as he writes it and how you know. I know I probably just had half of the people listening and be like, oh, emotions, I don't want to, I don't want to talk about that. But like how learning how to communicate the language of emotions and how sometimes people say, like what anger and sadness and shame, they're not bad, but they point us to different things that we're feeling and when we can communicate those effectively, we can be better understood by those near us.

Speaker 3: 54:18

And a strategy that Danielle and I have actively used has been able to say all right, what am I feeling? I'm irritated, I'm annoyed. That means I'm angry. What is anger telling me? Anger means that I want something and it's being blocked right now and it invites me to ask for what I want and it's almost like guiding through, like, all right, what am I actually? What's going on in my heart right now? Because if I'm not careful it's going to bubble over the wrong way. So for us it's really been like we've got a one-sheeter that we've got posted on the side of the refrigerator, on the bathroom wall that says all right, where is my heart right now. What does that mean? That it's going on, and how do I invite the other person into that with me? Otherwise they're not going to know.

Speaker 2: 55:02

So that's been a big resource for us Others. Anybody else got a communication strategy? That's helpful.

Speaker 1: 55:08

I'll go real quick, so I mentioned it a little bit earlier. I think, as business owners and leaders and entrepreneurs you know, guys listening to this podcast and us on this call we have some unique challenges. I also think we have some unique opportunities and that is around creating space. And I know, over my years of being a business owner yes, I worked a lot I also found that when I could leverage time, especially as you guys have, some of you guys have when I had younger kids at home, when they're all in Now, if you homeschool, then that's another unique challenge that you need to work through. But if your kids are in school and they go out of the home, like you have some flexibility where you could maybe take an hour lunch or take some time in the afternoon to be able to find space to connect with your wife and to stay close and, you know, keep that communication going.

Speaker 1: 56:07

Those, I think, being I couldn't have said this, actually, I don't think before the call, but one of the things you guys said was when I, when I reflect on the closeness that my I think Anthony said this when I reflect on the closeness that my wife and I have experienced because of conflict that we've stepped into, not in the moment, it sucked, it was terrible, but the outpouring of that, because hopefully in your marriage you guys listen to this that you both are coming from a place of goodwill and if you've got goodwill and you're willing to work through it, that just being willing to step in I don't want to say the ring be willing to step into the space and have those difficult conversations, just talking about them, getting them out there, asking to be able to talk about them, I think it's a great like, just a good tool to use. I love Brian's framework man, the emotion sheet. I love frameworks, I'm a frameworks guy but I have to steal that from you.

Speaker 3: 57:15

Oh yeah, we'll connect. We'll connect on it. It's great.

Speaker 2: 57:17

Well, hey, listen, guys. Thank you so much for being here today, brian, thank you for being a co-host, anthony, always knock it out of the park, wally. What a great time we had today. Listen, guys, your marriage is worth fighting for. Let me just tell you from all the hundred years of experience we have here at the end of the day, we'll tell you that it's worth fighting for. So learn how to have difficult conversations in marriage. Really, think through some of your timing, some of the patience that you might need in order to do it right. Think about the things that you want to let go, the things that are worth addressing, and then, more importantly than anything, the effective communication is going to help you resolve these things, and the reason that we want you to do these things is so that you, too, can have that view from the top.

Speaker 1: 58:02

Hey guys, thanks so much for listening in today we hear so often. Hey, I love your podcast. I love what you guys are talking about. Uh, how can I get more? And the way we do that actually is if you go to view from the topcom slash community that's view from the topcom slash community you can join the eyes I community.

Speaker 1: 58:23

That's iron sharpens Iron community, where every month, we deep dive into topics similar to this. We pick something out of the ISI pillars of transformation. We dive deep for about 20, 30 minutes and then we break up into small groups just like this, anywhere from four to 10 guys and we really dive into the topic. Where you're listening to us today, you get to hear what the topic. Where you're listening to us today, you get to hear what we're experiencing, what we've been through. The cool part about the community is you get to participate in that process, in that journey, and you have a voice and you get to be heard and you get to speak into somebody else. So go ahead and go to viewfromthetopcom slash community, check that out there, and I know we would love to see you in the community. We'll see you then. You guys have a great week. We'll see you next week.