What You Need to Know to Validate on AVAX

GoGoPool + Savvy DeFi hosted a space to talk about the innovations happening with AVAX Subnets with the experts helping them get built.

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Transcript

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I would like to welcome everybody to the Avax ecosystem space. I am one of your lovely hosts, Brey. I am joined here by my amazing co-host, uh, Savage Sav Defi, I believe. Yes. Alex Lumley. On the Alex Rumley. On the head. On the helm. Yo Yo. Yo, yo yo, Alex. So happy to have you also joined by Nathan of Landslide. Go ahead, give yourself an applause, my friend. Yes, we are in the bunker today. Deep, deep in the Shire. Deep in the Shire. I'm also joined by Roman, the founder of s Defi. Say, what's up? My. Gm, gm, gm, gm. And last, but of course not least, we got my main man, Devin of the c e o of Nevada Labs. Say, what's up my friend? How's it going? We'll probably have, uh, Daniel, our sales lead joining here shortly, too. Excellent, excellent. We'll get him popped up on up here as soon, soon as he pops on in. Appreciate you so much for sliding out today, for everyone out there who's Wonderland, what are these guys even gonna talk about here? Well, we got Devin here, c e o of Nirvana Labs. He's building, he's helping build some crucial, crucial infrastructure and helping folks build subnets and, um, build projects on avalanche. So we're definitely gonna go, we're gonna dive pretty deep into everything that he's got going on. I see Daniel's coming in as well as get Danny up on up here. I'm pretty sure Daniel's up here. What's up, Daniel? How's it going guys? Everything's going well, my friend. Happy to have you, my friend. We, we we're gonna have some, uh, interesting things to talk about. Uh, the world is currently imploding and subnets are still looking beautiful. So we got an interesting little conundrum here on our hands. Um, sounds like an interesting hump day to me. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Uh, so everybody, today on the agenda, uh, we're going to, one, we're gonna go over like, what is Nirvana? Who they're working with. Uh, but we're also gonna talk about, uh, what kind of projects that they're excited about and that the, that the crew, the rest of the team is excited about as well. I'm gonna give their thoughts on hyper sdk. Uh, then we're gonna go get some closing remarks from our amazing panel out here. And we're of course, don't worry, Nathan, we're of course gonna talk about what's going on the banking industry right now. I'm sure, uh, Nathan and Roman have some things to say about the Silicon Valley Bank collapse. Um, so we're for sure gonna be talking about that. Uh, but I'm gonna go ahead and kick everything off with a very, very easy, easy question for you, Devin. And then we're gonna start getting deep. Uh, can you just give an overview to the people out there who don't know what Nirvana Labs is? Can you just give'em an overview of what you folks do out there? Yeah, it's pretty basic. I mean, if you're building any sort of blockchain application and you need to send or receive blockchain data, you need to have access to a node and you can run a node yourself, or you can have a third party company run a node for you. And, um, what that does in terms of value for our customers is it allows them to spend a lot less time and money and resources on managing nodes and use those resources towards building their products and, you know, making their, their ecosystems better. Um, so that, that, that's basically our value add. How we're a little different from existing providers out there is, instead of using existing off-the-shelf technologies and hyperscaler clouds out there, like a AWS and g c. Uh, what we did was we built our own cloud and our own, uh, cdn, uh, so that we can control more of what happens and the performance and the cost of all of our services. And, uh, we passed all of these benefits on to our customers. So Devin, you said a lot there and we're gonna have to dive a, a very, very deep. Um, as a person that's curious about, um, operating a node myself, can you kind of go over the typical way that you would kind of spin up a node and like how much that would cost versus the, uh, versus going through Nirvana Labs? Yeah, typically, I mean, you have two options. You can go with like an alchemy or like an existing provider, um, a competitor of ours, and that's probably the most expensive option. But, um, you get a similar, you know, white glove service that you get at Nirvana. I, I'd argue that ours is much better. But, um, the other option is, uh, hiring a DevOps engineer, network engineer and Linux system engineer. Somebody essentially that can do all those things and have them run nodes on AWS or GCP for you full-time. Where Nirvana Labs is different is not only are we cheaper and faster than Alchemy and the existing competitors out there, but um, we're also cheaper and faster than AWS and G C P. um, by, by cheaper and faster. I mean in terms of RPC latency and in terms of cost for compute storage, and the most importantly, networking and bandwidth. So AWS charges 8 cents per gigabyte for outbound data transfer fees. And that's a cost that like all of the other RPC competitors have to pay aws. And that's the reason why they have those API credit systems. But, um, with us, you actually pay eight times less 1 cent per gigabyte. And we even get it down to 0 cents per gigabyte if we do some networking, man, Jake, with our enterprise customers. Um, but we essentially built something that's way more optimized to run these nodes plus. You get web three support. So, um, let's say something goes wrong with your node running on aws. You make an AWS support ticket, you're like, Hey, my avalanche node is all messed up. Can you help me with the configuration on the flags? They're gonna be like, I don't know what that is. Um, you gotta do that yourself. Doesn't our aws, um, versus us, one of our engineers will be like, yeah, sure. Let me just look into it right now, fix it for you, and we get you on your way. I think may, maybe I can shed some, um, pricing. Um, I can share our pricing. So we, we signed, uh, like a one year contract with, um, AWS for like$1,600. And we have a DevOps engineer, but that's just for one node. Maybe you can, like, just, just for one main net validator, can you, can you talk what pricing looks like in terms of, maybe you could clarify that. Yeah. Uh, I don't know how to pin things up top, but Danny, could you figure out how to get our pricing calculator on here so like people can just directly compare with aws, GCP and LA Node? Absolutely. One, one quick question on that though, landslide is, is you said$1,600 for a year, and does that include outbound data transfer fees or what's kind of included in that quote? Is it just the, you know, here you, you have access to the platform and then there's, you know, 40 other things that you're gonna encourage charges on? Or what's kind of the structure of that deal? That's a gr that's a good question. I'm, I'm not sure the specifics. Um, I thought it was based on like the previous month of data use. Um, so I, I, I don't know. I'm, I'm happy to, happy to figure it out and work with you guys offline about it. Yeah, I would love to, to learn a little more about that cuz AWS is, um, let's just say they, they'll, they'll typically charge you if they have any reason to charge you for anything. Like, I've created an account just to play around and all of a sudden you wake up and your credit card's charged a hundred dollars for something new for nothing. Um, so would love to see the details of that. Yeah, sure. I don't even have an account and I still get a bill for$2 every month. That also happens to me. What that is interesting. um, from, from the perspective of someone who, cause I, I, at some point in time I do wanna become an Ava validator. I, I'm, I'm pretty hundred percent sure about it. Um, can you kind of just kind of walk me through, walk me through it, like how I should one, contact you and then two, how much just a regular person like me would pay, not necessarily like I'm an enterprise or business. Yes, I mean, soon we're gonna have no code support for validating on Avalanche since Ava Avalanche allows you to do it externally. But not only that, uh, we're building a subnet validator marketplace. So any enterprise customers that launch the subnet on Nirvana Labs, and let's say it's a permission list subnet, we're just gonna do those at first. Um, anybody can then come also validate to that subnet, no code necessary to set it up. We just spin the mode and you just get going and you start. Uh, so essentially it's, it's a win-win win for everyone because the subnet creators don't have to run as many nodes themselves. And then the, they're also able to share with users in their ecosystem by letting them, you know, validate to that sub. For, for everyone out there who's not privy to the typical process of Val and the subnet, can you kind of give them what that's like and then how that's gonna change once the marketplace gets, uh, launched? Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll let Danny go into it. And Danny, you wanna kind of explain how we're partnering with like Ben Key and Ignite for this stuff? Great. I'm in. Take my money can you just repeat the, the question real quick? My, my headphones fell out actually when you were talking Yeah. He's asking about, um, the, uh, the typical, uh, requirements to launching the subnet and how we're like helping lower the infrastructure cause, but also we're helping lower that validator, you know, staking requirement cost of then key. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So first off, it, it depends whether it's Tesla or Mainten net, right? I mean, if you're just starting with test. um, it's definitely lower requirements. You're able to just spin up with one validator. Um, you know, one of our standard nodes, I just commented in the space I was working on pinning it. Um, but you could just deploy a standard node, um, and you'll be able to spin a subnet with that. Uh, when you get the main net, um, you'll need at least, uh, four validators and what? Five? Yep. Five, sorry. And what, uh, ignite Banking and Ignite they're doing is they're essentially going to, they're trying to make running subnets just extremely easy and way more feasible for your average, you know, application. And someone who doesn't necessarily have, you know, 10 K AVAs is sitting around, right? I, I don't have 10 K AVAs, so maybe you guys are, you know, way smarter than me. But, um, essentially they're gonna be able to front up to 90% of the AVAs required, uh, to get your. Subnet up and up and running. So you have to front Leo 10% and you'll be able to kind of borrow 90% of the AVAs acquired, um, per validator. And this will just make it way more accessible for the roast applications and users to, to spin up subnets and hopefully kind of help the, try the adoption of subnets, um, and bring more and more people into the avalanche ecosystem. I'm super curious about that. How does, how does the economic security, like what, what's the economic security trade off of, of lending versus having something, um, staked? You're talking about from like bank's perspective? Yeah, from bank's perspective. So I am not a part of the Benke team, so I cannot comment on their true motives. I could tell you my opinion on that. And my opinion is that, you know, Benke is that, are some of the OG. um, people in the avalanche ecosystem. Um, they are very, you know, we spoke, we spoken with our founders and a core team and they're very much, uh, bullish on avalanche long term. Um, and there may be some financial motives here, but, um, I think they're really doing this because they want to help drive adoption of subnets and they think that subnets is the future. And by them kind of putting out this, this loan system where they can kind of help drive adoption of, um, more subnets and bring more people into the ecosystem that's just gonna benefit them in the long term. And obviously their, their major holders of the avalanche token, so that will help them long term. Um, but you know, any further comment, you know, would have to come from their team, from them. Now I'm also very, very interested about the, the subnet marketplace as well. Um, and like the specific question is, um, like what is it like for a validator who wants to validate a subnet right now? Like what does that process look like for me to find a, find a sub that wants a validator and to then, um, go ahead and connect myself so that I can actually validate that subnet. And then how does the Subnet marketplace make that process a little bit more seamless? Yeah, I mean, I guess that's where Go Go Pool also comes in with those like SDK tools and making it, um, like a more seamless process. We're gonna be using Gogo Pools, um, tools to make our, uh, subnet deployments a bit easier. As well as, you know that there's also the Gogo pool option. If you guys wanna stay Gogo, G G P tokens, and that'll be an option through that. The UI to do so. So, um, we want to give everybody, you know, the freedom of to launch a subnet how they want to, um, and, uh, just, you know, basically make the barriers to entry as low as possible for everyone to, to make this avalanche space bigger. Well, I, here's a, here's a, I mean, the fact that you guys have a marketplace where emerging subnets can either bid or find other validators, that's great because AWS doesn't offer that, right? So Brey, if you're, if you start a a, a main net node, you have to pay for your own DevOps engineer or do it yourself. And then after you have the node set up, you have to set up monitoring on something like Grafana or, or some monitoring tool in Slack to give you general updates. Then you have to update all the avalanche go packages, every release. So it sounds like Nirvana's just offering that as a service. Yeah, we have monitoring as well as alerting to, uh, slack or Jira builtin. Y'all are making this real, real seamless man. I, I love this. I absolutely love Nirvana. So now, now I have to ask the question. It kind of just seems like, as you know, if I come to you folks with the AVAs and then what is, what do I do after that? Am I just kind of chilling or What else do I do? Yeah, I mean, pretty much just pay the server bill and, um, you know, that's a flat rate. Uh, you can get a discount for a year lease subscription. That's pretty much it. Oh yeah, that's fire. Devin for sure gonna be talking to you. very, very, very, very interested in that. Cause I definitely don't wanna run a, run a note in any sort of way. Nathan, what's up man? I saw you, uh, on mute. Do you do, do you guys take transaction fees or, or was it just like a flat server? Server fee rental. Yeah, we're, we're not interested in like, taking stay game rewards cuz then we have to get into things like slashing insurance and et cetera. Um, we're just here to provide infrastructure. Ding, ding, ding my friend. Um, now, now, Devin, I'm, I'm very curious on your, your thoughts too, of the, the current landscape of summits. I think, um, I'm, and I'm gonna put out this video. Very, very soon about this talk, actually, the Town Hall full videos out. But a promo video specifically is what I'm talking about, where Steven was, was, was saying that Ethereum's only processing 1 million transactions, uh, daily, and Avalanche is currently processing 1.7 million transactions daily. Um, Devin, I I just want to get your, your thoughts about the, the current landscape of subnets and then where you think that landscape can go in the future, man, because the future's kind of looking bright with stats like that. Yeah, I mean, I'm about to head to, uh, G D C next week game developers conference in San Francisco, and everybody's talking about avalanche subnets over there. Gaming is one of the biggest use cases for subnets that I've been hearing about this quarter and last quarter. Um, and that's just because, you know, it's, it's simple. You can do more on chain gaming logic when you have a faster t ps capability. and uh, that just lets game devs be a little bit more flexible with how they want to build games. Like if, if they really wanted to like put every single, like kill in a, like a first person shooter, real time, multi-player game on chain, you know, we're much closer to being able to do that. The thing that prevents games from, um, you know, having a lot of on chain gaming logic is actually those networking fees, that 8 cents per gigabyte. So, um, that's where we, we came in and we were like, we really want to help solve that and decrease the actual unit cost of on chain gaming logic. So, um, that, that's what we did. Um, I don't know, I think, you know, the TPSs capabilities, uh, not only in gaming but like in a bunch of different use cases, It, it just keeps expanding. But, uh, as, as per usual, gaming is the first sector to kind of adopt things and move, move forward with the technology. Uh, I've seen a few sneak pre like sneak previews of something like games coming out and it's, it's really interesting cuz like, they're not like some of the like light web app metaverse games that we saw like the last five years, they're actually like real like AAA title looking games with on chain features and capabilities. And it's, uh, it's like stuff I would play. Yeah, I think that's why, you know, games like Shrapnel, um, those AAA raid had rated, uh, games, like they're gonna be absolutely huge. Um, because, you know, not only have they done an amazing job at creating just an actual fun game, um, but you know, that fun game uses Web three kind of underneath the helm within its infrastructure and, and even diving deeper into the infrastructure it's using, it's built on a subnet, um, which is, um, absolutely amazing. So it's gonna be, it, it's really kind of building in, it's bringing in this new frontier of, of games. I feel like a lot of web two based games and, um, a lot of these older type games gonna eventually, uh, start building, uh, subnets based off, strictly off of seeing Shrapnel built. Um, because, you know, up until shrapnel. Most of these games have been, you know, gamified Xes or, you know, just like little flash games or, you know, like, you know, nothing, no, nothing to really, uh, to gawk at really to be honest with what'll sweat the graphics card at all. Yeah, yeah. No sweat on the graphics card whatsoever. I mean, you can run these things on, uh, windows 95, uh, sort of games is what's coming out. But, you know, shrapnel is kind of bringing in that next evolution, that next step that is a huge step, um, in, in the industry. And it, it, it's great that you're kind of, um, that you kind of noticed that and that you're profiling them. Uh, now I do wanna just, for the people out there who may not kind of know, like why is this notion of having this high transaction and this and this high final finality and this low latency, like why are these things actually important? So, I mean, they're important for, for many different reasons. I mean, take, take a look at, look at game of call duty. Like if you're going. if you're playing a game of call duty multiplayer, like you could be killing, you know, five, 10 people in, in a minute. Um, so you need high transaction throughput if you want to be able to, you know, kind of record that all in chain as opposed to just necessarily waiting until a chain's done and then posting it to the ch the results stitching, right? Um, so it kind of depends on how you wanna structure, um, your game and how much information you actually want to be on chain. And that's actually one of the, I think the really cool things about Shrapnel is they're essentially kind of creating two different modes, right? I mean, obviously we've all seen the, the trailers, they're sick, they're awesome, looks super fun. Um, but they're gonna have like, kind of like a web two version of. And then also Web three version. And the web three version will be the one with all the NFTs and everything. You'll be able to trade the assets and then they'll just have a regular kind of, you know, web two version where, um, you'll be able to track in like an offline database, you know, you'll be able to unlock, you know, perks and everything else, but they won't be recorded as NFTs in the blockchain. So I think I, I'm honestly pretty bullish on this long term because I think it gives companies and people kind of an opportunity to try the game out. Like the game, earn some like, you know, skins, assets, whatever the NFTs are, and then wait, like, take a look and be like, wait, if I just did this with the nft, I could sell this to make money off of it. And I think that perspective will help like gamers and, you know, not necessarily crypto people get into it and see the value of NFTs and want to put, you know, want to get more of the on chain data and start getting into the web three there. Um, so then they'll start to put more and more on. they allow people that are doing like the non blockchain version, like if they decide later on they wanna offer, and I think they can redeem all of their, you know, progress, progress for the NFTs. They can, there's just a risk associated with it. So they haven't released the mechanics of how that's gonna work yet. But there will be an opportunity for you to cross over from the web two version to the web three version with some risk associated with it. Yeah. Yeah. It'll probably, it'll probably mimic the way that Castle Crush did their, did their work. Probably, uh, I'm not actually familiar with that. Um, the, to touch on something that G G P and the Nirvana Labs team have been working on too is like GRE is a giant web two, you know, gaming. Uh, conglomerate and they're looking to get on these subnets for a while. So we've been working with those guys for a while. And, uh, their background is entirely, you know, Japanese web two games, and they're looking for ways to, you know, create natural integrations into Web three for those existing games. You know, what we, and as, as, it's great that you brought up GRE too. Um, we had Defi Mons in here, uh, last week and they brought up, you know, how they kind of circumvented, you know, the app store cuz you know, for those who aren't privy, the app store for each transaction that you process is a 30% fee. Um, which is ridiculous. And, and not plaus. in like a Shrapnel game or like really any web three based game, cuz there's just gonna be millions of transactions going through constantly. Um, so it's really kind of cool to see these, uh, blockchain development companies circumvent these things by making this hybrid web two web three model. Um, I think moving forward, I think we're gonna see a lot of these hybrids come out this, this web. Like I can play web two wise if I feel like it, but then I can also switch over to web three if I'm, you know, feeling, feeling a little frisky. Um, so I, I think, think teams like Shrapnel, defi, mon, shout out, go pool, shout out, um, Nirvana Labs. We're, we're really, really building that, that new frontier that I think are gonna really change the landscape of the entire gaming industry. And I think that we can actually talk a little bit about that. Um, for anyone out there. if you remember all the hours that you put in on Pokemon, right? Like think, just think about how many hours you spent just training, not even beating the game, but just training, sitting around fighting, uh, Pokemon, just to gain experience levels and you didn't get paid a single thing for that. There's really no, um, financial incentive for that as well. Devin, I, I really kinda wanna ask you and Danny, uh, what do you think, how do you think Web Three is gonna change the landscape of gaming? Um, you know, given, uh, all the things we just talked about it, it's gonna be revolutionary. I don't think there's another word to, to describe it really. Like, like you said, like Pokemon, like Roone scape, world of Warcraft, all these games. I mean, I personally sunk days of my life into weeks, months. Um, you know, they're just, the transaction volume that occurs on those games on a daily basis is ridiculous and people are just playing it for fun, right? I think, you know, we saw the shift, you know, a year ago from play to earn to, you know, no one really cares, cares about those mechanisms, and no one wants to, you know, farm some shitty SLP token, but people want to play the game and earn the, the NFTs, right? Those, those top level skins as rare guns, those rare swords, you know, Pokemon, whatever, whatever the game is, and the ability to then profit off of that when you decide, hey, you're doing this for, for money purposes, or you're doing this because you don't have time to play the game anymore, whatever it is, but there's so much more incentive to play the game. If there is the potential to, to profit at some point in the game, whether that's be a N F T or you know, or tokens, what, whatever the mechanism is. I'm not saying one way is right way or the wrong way, um, but the potential to turn games into from something jets just purely fun to something more is I I i I think the word revolutionary. Danny, I love that you said revolutionary. Um, I, I gotta ask you, uh, which one of those games that you named were, was the game that you sunk, you know, days of your life into? Was it Pokemon? Was it Rosk? Which one? It's, yo, it's, it's probably 50 50 between Ro Scape and, and Pokemon. Um, I don't know if I could quantify one over the other, but, uh, God damn did I love those games. Still do. I just don't have the time to play'em as much. was your favorite Pokemon Day. Hmm. I mean, I think I gotta go blast horse, right? I think I have to. There's just so many. I mean, but yeah, I gotta go blast horse. I mean, you could go blast toys, so you could go the real og and that's Charar baby. You guys ever that picture of like the old man with like the 50 iPhones playing like Pokemon Go on a bicycle? What? No. A year That happened like a year or two ago. It was a Pokemon Go. This is like old guy in Japan. He, uh, he strapped up like 50 phones until like, you know, uh, some like rag he made and just walked around Japan playing Pokemon Go, just collecting everything. Now how crazy is that like in. You know, we're, we're talking about it now. It's, it's funny, me and my, me and my friend were kind of talking about some similar stuff, uh, like this, and he gave a great analogy in the sense that, man, we're, we're standing at the bottom of a mountain. Look up, looking up and getting excited about it. Right? But you know what, what happens when we're traversing the mountain, when we've reached the peak to the mountain? Like, what, what, what happens, you know, five years from now to this, to this gaming industry? And, um, I, I, you know, I think that we could try to perseverate on it here, but it's, uh, I think it's gonna change in ways that we can't really even fathom right now, man. Like when I, when I think of the example, you, you, you just gave Devin of a old man, Custom building a rig to have like 50 iPhones and, and they're walking around playing Pokemon Gold and they're doing it just for the fun of it, obviously. Um, you know, I, I can't fathom, you know, what that's gonna look like when a kid is literally properly motivated in the sense that, uh, some of these games you're getting early enough, you may even be able to live off of the income that you, that you, uh, generate from the game and, and, and games like Shrapnel. That happened with Axi, except Axi just exploded because they, for a couple reasons, but yeah. That, that was happening with Axi. Exactly, yeah. That was happening with, with Axi where people were just living off of the income. Now, now, no. Now we've all learned, hopefully from, from the ax axis situation, and we, and we realize, I hope that a, a token has to actually have some sort of utility in order for that, you know, kind of, uh, situation to continue. But it is, it is, it is great to kind of see these. Uh, see these examples of the future that, um, that we're seeing right now. Devin, I saw you on on pause, man. You got the front. Yeah, I just wanna say I also see massive utility and not, not just the games, but the game marketplaces. So like the Web three Steam and the Web three Xbox store. And we've been talking to companies that are, are building, you know, those solutions and seeing interoperability in terms of like credits for in-game credits or even eventually, like in-game items is gonna be really, really cool. And avalanche and subnets and warp messaging kind of help accelerate that to the next level even quicker. All right, so now we gotta talk a little bit about. How subnets kind of compare right. In this whole, in this whole future. Um, and I, I wanna talk to you folks specifically like Danny, Devin and, and, and Nathan just because, um, you guys are, you guys are really, really deep as far as your knowledge is concerned on the subject. Um, I I, I wanna ask, I guess I could start off with Nathan, because this is kind of a comparison. Like, why would someone choose Subnets over like a Adam Zones or like a, was it Polygon Super Nets, which is a funny name, but why would anybody choose these over like a subnet y you know, great question, man. I, I, uh, commend you for being so involved in the space from a Go-Go perspective and like still coming up with questions that you enjoy asking. So so good. Good on you, sir. Um, so, uh, polygon Mad has, uh, is capped at a hundred. Validators, they're D p O S. They're delegated proof of stake, which means, uh, you can't expand the validator set. Um, it's essentially like a beauty pageant. Do you know the foundation? Do you know the people who, it's like a old boys network, right? Um, so Polygon itself is structured around that. It's structured, you know, and sometimes corporations like that. So you can see, uh, Reddit is using them, um, Starbucks. So they're clearly their BizDev team is, you know, excelling at, uh, sales. Um, and as far as as Adam zones, because this is recorded and obviously we like, have to tell the truth here, right? Um, the, the app chain thesis in Cosmos holds. in the subnet thesis, right? The, the, the thematic thesis of SuperNet holds true. So it's the same reason that people do it. It's just that the reasons are, uh, like when you, when you dig into the fine print, you'll find that the reasons kind of diverge, right? So in Cosmos, cosmos is run on tenement consensus, which is, uh, for, like, to get nerdy in a rabbit hole, like it basically takes six to seven seconds to achieve finality. So you cannot run these games. You cannot run Trap or a AAA game on a Cosmos app chain. You can't do it. Um, even if you have optimistic Rollups, that's a whole other, you know, tmu discussion, but you, you, you can't do it. Um, and, uh, same can be said for, for, um, madic. It's run on a consensus algorithm called Nakamoto Consensus, which is just a. you know, um, a, a a different consensus algorithm. And doesn't matter how many sequencers you attach to, it doesn't matter how many layer twos you attach to it, it centralizes. Uh, you know, the trade-offs you make are, are centralization. And for people who are like, you know, screaming to the high hills and running for their bunkers and clutching their pearls in the moment of the banking collapse, you really want something that's decentralized. So that's kind of the, the, the, the thing, right? That's, that everyone's looking for is, is a decentralized validator set. So in, in Cosmos, their validator set is constrained to 175 validators on main net, Adam. Um, of course there's a long list of reasons why. It's, it again, it has to do with, um, the assumptions about tender, the assumptions about, um, their interchange, security, and some of the other, uh, assumptions about cosmos. So I hope, hope that is clear. Uh, happy to go through it a little bit more. I mean, we can for sure dive deeper. We can always dive deeper. Um, I think you gave the, the excellent, um, synopsis of it. Devin, I saw you, uh, unmute. You got it. Yeah. Um, I guess since we, we just launched support for Polygon, so I, um, I have to be agnostic in terms that we also support them, but to, in terms of facts, like it took us much less time to integrate and support Avalanche than it took for Polygon. And the Polygon Super Nets product is just a little less mature than the subnets product, in my opinion. In terms of like, Getting live on it, um, and being publicly accessible, documentation that's, you know, mature. Um, so yeah, I mean they, they both do essentially the same thing. They take the load off of the main net into its own subnet or nets. Um, and it's an app chain. But, uh, in terms of our experience on building with both, we definitely have more experience building on Avalanche. And, um, yeah. Well I, I'm sure we'll, we'll, we'll get into Polygon more in the next couple months, but, uh, that's where we're at right now. I have a question, and this is genuine question. Are there any actual live games on Super Nets or any other, um, app chain besides subnets right now? For, for Cosmos, I can say no, none That, none that I know of for Super Nets. I, I don't know, I don't know how they would possibly do it, right? Like how, you know, polygon uses a central centralized sequencer in a hundred validators. There's no way that they could possibly push tps. Yeah, I mean that, that just, I mean, simple as that, you know, maybe the dumb, dumb business guy, but you know, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't suggest that. No, I'm just saying like super nets. I mean, that's subnets work. Like it's proven they're many games and applications using them. Um, and there's been no issues so far. So, I mean, that's my personal opinion on that. Yeah. And so, so is, so Nathan with the only thing that's bottlenecking a polygon would be their validators. Their validators set. They can only have a hundred that's bottlenecking them from having games. Um, and then there was one other reason that you gave, oh, that's their TPSs, is their, their TPSs isn't enough to handle it. It's a consensus, right? They're, they're still using Nakamoto consensus. And, and Nakamoto is the one where each, um, each query has to be 100%, right? It can't be like 99.9 or Oh, that, that you're talking about probabilistic versus deterministic, not nakamoto. Uh, Nakamoto consensus is what's used in, in like basically, uh, Bitcoin and, and uh, eth. Okay. And, and most, most other layer ones like, you know, Coinbase is new base is is a layer. Any, any of these layer twos, they're all sort of using, um, that as a consensus. So, uh, arro optimism right base, those are all sort of, those are all cl basically clones. And the same thing is based in L one in and of itself, or is it being built on Ethereum? No, it's an L two. Oh, it's an L two. Okay. Yeah. It's built on top of the optimistic stack. Right. Nakamoto consensus is, is a synchronous consensus protocol, so it assumes propagation for a certain like, amount of time. Right. So you, with, with Nakamoto, you have to have at least 50% of the nodes downloaded in Bitcoin within a 10 minute block time. Right. That's, that's the, that's the max Bitcoin maxi, you know, wrap. And wait, can you explain that one more time? I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. It's just like the, the specifics of what Nakamoto consensus is, is that it's, it's a synchronous consensus protocol, which means that all of the, um, all of the nodes have to be talking synchronously at the same time. And it, and it, it has, it has assumptions that are built into it, right? It, it assumes, uh, a propagation of, of a data set for within a certain amount of time. So, and just, just to make sure my mind is wrapped around it, if I wanna send$5 out to John and I ha and there's 25 validaters on the chain in Nakamoto, uh, that one transaction gets sent out to every single validator on chain to be verifi. Uh, yeah, that, that's right. It, they all get sent out generally, um, like it, it, when you're, you're talking about sending the transaction to all validators? Yes. That, that's how that, that works. Okay, got you. And, and the probabilistic way it gets sent out to one, then, then that one talks to, uh, a bunch of ones that are like adjacent to it, and then they all kind of come on an agreement. Uh, yeah, I should, you know, I should write a rap song about this just so we remember it. It's like a mnemonic device or something. So, so Synchron, uh, um, probabilistic and deterministic are, are safety guarantee. S Right. So you, you either want, uh, so, um, tender Mint fan, tender mint consensus. Deterministic, which is what you referred to earlier in the call about like, is it a zero or a one? And probabilistic is, is between that, which is where you're saying, I don't really need one, uh, like a hundred percent guarantee I need 99.99. Nine nine 9%. And that's so, uh, snow consensus, which is what Avalanche consensus is built on. Uh, that fits into the probabilistic. Right. You're probably safe. Got you. And then that probabilistic consensus is the reason why we're, we are able to achieve such a high transaction output. Right. Because Right. Because we're not, we're not constrained by the, um, the assumptions of Nakamoto consensus. Right, right. Got you, got you. So, So L two. So like what you see right, is like L two s have a bunch of marketing, but at the bottom of it, they have, they have the same type of nakamoto consensus. So they're not solving the issue. They're, they're just offloading the load. And so they're like those hundred validators in Polygon. Those are the ones who are, that's where, uh, compute power and uh, uh, like finalization of transactions. That's where that's centralized in those hundred validators. And if you don't know them, or you, you can't get into the validator set. It's hard for you to, uh, um, you can't, it's, it's a lot harder to spin up a node, right? It's a lot harder to get your own security assumptions. And this is, this is where like the cosmos maxis kind of go off, right? Because they want to have their own security. Uh, uh, they want their own validator set. In some cases, they maybe want shared security. So like optionality is the thing for, for Cosmos Maxis, right? Unfortunately, they're, they, they happen to be locked into Tender min consensus, which is, which is what we've kind of fixed it landslide, right? We take all of the Cosmos, sdk, all of the zones, all the I B C stuff, all of that, um, great tech that works, and we're just bringing it into avalanche to communicate, right? So we're just kind of expanding the I B C, uh, neighborhood, and that's the, the thing I, I love so much about, um, landslide and I, I do this every week where I say I love landslide. If any, if any. If anything, you guys need to start a drinking game. like drinking. Take a shot anytime Brey says he loves Lands We'll log toe up to the, I'll take a shot every time Brey says he love subnets, please. Oh my goodness. Don't do that my friend. Look, I don't kill anybody in here. Like, what I'd love to see from Nirvana, honestly, like I'd love to see you guys run i b c relays. I'd love to see you guys run cosmo zone nodes, uh, because like there's so much of an overlap in your enterprise model, right? Like we're, we're gonna be setting up I IB C relays and, and, and also main that cosmos zones. And we would like, I would rather do it through your infrastructure than give AWS more. I think we should, uh, we should have a follow up conversation for one day, uh, later this week or next week. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And then also, um, we're straight up gunning for AWS market share. Like, um, in terms of, uh, yeah, how do you do that? Like how do you actually compete with aws? Well, uh, I'll, I'll get to that, but, um, in terms of like Nirvana cloud, it's, that's what we use to build the nodes, the storage, the subnets. So instead of using aws, we use our cloud and we built that off of bare metal. So we're just leasing bare metal machines from 35 different data centers, uh, data center locations around the world. And, um, essentially we're our only concern is delivering the best blockchain infrastructure possible versus Amazon. Um, they have a streaming business. They have a shipping business, like online marketplace. You know what you name it, what? They're not in, they like Amazon Go stores now. So when you pay like 8 cents per gigabyte for networking fees, they're, AWS is the most profitable wing of Amazon. So they're offsetting a lot of their loss leaders with the process. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're burying supermarkets because the supermarkets are, it's just a loss leader for them. Yeah. That and because they're making all their money on aws, so they're, they're like, you know, whole Foods is can, can go really low and put everybody outta business because they don't need to make any money. Yeah, yeah. And we also, we also don't have, uh, you know, billions of dollars of legacy infrastructure that we would need to rip out to upgrade. Um, we spent two years, you know, building and planning and we deployed officially like four or five months ago. Um, avalanche. We've actually just straight up seen on avalanche main net, just like straight up a hundred percent uptime. It's not even like 99.99999 or anything like that. It's just straight up a hundred and, um, I don't know. It's, it's great. I, I, we don't, you know, we don't advertise a hundred, but, um, that's, that's what we've been seeing so far. Um, it's probably the most stable blockchain we, we've been supporting. Um, but where I was going with this is we'll have basically all the same tools in terms of launching an abuntu or CentOS machine in any of our locations. Uh, and we're, we're also launching our Terraform provider within the next, like, month or two. Um, our first location for Nirvana Cloud will go up in London for, you know, self-service public use in like two weeks. And, um, That's basically like, you could use it the same as aws. You know, you could host a post grad scale database on it or run a JavaScript API on it, or host a Cosmos relayer on it, and you'd pay the same prices that we charge for, you know, RPC or for anything else. We don't really charge on top of, uh, on that, on top of that for just like installing a binary basically. So, um, yeah, it's gonna run a cloud. It will be really competitive to run whatever you want on it. Is it possible to take out like insurance on the uptime somehow? Like for like corporate clients? Like, if we have to maintain like, I don't know, some level of. Yeah. Uh, so we do, uh, uptime sla. So if we go below a certain number of points in, in, uh, uptime, we will, we'll give you guys refunds. And we do that with plenty of our clients and we're really confident that we can withhold our, or uphold our uptime. So, um, not really an issue for us. Great. But have never had a refund yet. Just one of the out. Um, first off, hats off to you folks for, you know, launching your cloud services. That's absolutely, absolutely huge. Devin and Danny. Um, yeah, that's, yeah. Congrats. Yeah, congrats to that, man. It's fucking huge. Uh, now I, I do wanna pick on Roman, so I'm saying your name up front so you can know you're about to be picked on Roman. Roman. Um, just to let you know, Roman, you're about to get picked on. Um, so Silicone Valley Bank, we got some big news that just came in. The Silicone Valley Bank, uh, collapsed, um, along with another bank, signature bank as well. Um, one, my first question to the panel up here is, one is that all the banks is that Silicone Valley Bank and Signature Bank are the only ones that have crashed so far. And then two, what other banks could possibly be exposed to this. Do you folks think, are we, are we gonna, are we gonna dive in the rabbit? Let's fucking go man. Let's do this. We're like actually gonna get into this. Now. Are, are we everyone here prepared to put on their tinfoil hat? I, I'm prepared. My, my tinfoil hat is properly placed over myro right now. I'll, I got a 10 bandana Okay. Okay. Roman, you, you wanna, you wanna, you wanna do it? Um, I also brought average Andy up here, average. Andy, if you got something to say as well about this, uh, subject, feel free. Oh yeah, dude. Uh, you forgot bank suis, uh, also made some very bearish announcements today. Something like 565 billion in liabilities or something like that. five. You said 565 billion with a b. Well, sir, we're not dealing with thousands here. We're talking about Well, shit, man, I didn't, you know, one Bankman has, uh, like the, the entire market cap of the crypto market. So I'm just, I'm just outta loss here for words. What, what did they say? I'm curious. That's the Swiss though. They, they literally bunch it. Um, wow. What, what, what did, what a what a tumultuous time do we have on our hands, uh, for folks out there who. May have a little bit more knowledge about like, why this is happening. Could you, I mean, I don't know if average, Andy, if you got more knowledge on why this is happening or if Nathan does, or, um, if one, if one of you folks could kind of talk about what, why this is happening. I, I was gonna let Roman crack into it, but o otherwise we can, we can start digging into what Apologi is sharing on Twitter. A lot of that stuff is very accurate. Ro Roman, Roman Romans fled the scene. Yeah, he got run. Okay. Um, uh, worse than, worse than any depositors. So, so, so why don't you go ahead and, and, and go with it. So, so B is one of the famous, you know, uh, um, brains in the space. And, and, and surprisingly I think, um, you know, people, people really kind of can disagree about, uh, about politics and like that general realm of things. But surprisingly, this is one area where most of the left and most of the right kind of agrees on, on the same thing. And, um, one, one of his tweets is that the Fed caused the banking crisis, right? So surprise rate hikes devastated the balance sheets of hundreds of banks, not just Silicon Valley. Um, because all them follow the same guidance. They bought the same assets from the same vendor who devalued them in the same way at the same time. And their mistake was that they thought buying long dated US treasuries and similar bonds from the government was the safest bet you could make. It turned out to be the riskiest, but what essentially just happened is it's. it's, it's a bailout without the name of the bailout. Without a bailout in name. Because, you know, once it gets out that the banks got bailed out again, people would just, you know, grab the pitchforks. So what, what's, I think the, the end result is the, the worst of both worlds, right? So we've, now, the F D I C has just bailed out the banks, but the public doesn't own equity. Uh, I mean, other people are welcome to respond. That's, that's sort of the way I'm seeing it. And now the banking system is just like officially nationalized. So, I guess the downside of the debt, but not the upside of like, potentially being invested in all these startups. I'm, I'm just saying like, the way that the bailout, like the way a bailout should work, right? If like, if we're gonna bail out, if we're gonna bail out, let's say avalanche, right? If we bail out something on avalanche, like we take equity in the thing that we're bailing out. Right? If we're, if, if, yeah. And that, that isn't the same thing they said in the All In podcast. You know, they, they're recommended. Like, it would be a great upside for the US taxpayer if they had a, you know, equity essentially in all these companies that had exposure in svb, I guess. Yeah. I mean, this is, of course, this is, of course, this is standard American, uh, finance playbook, which is, uh, privatize the gains and socialize the losses and, and the, the ba you know, you know, and the ba bizarre thing is to see, um, you know, trai lose, you know, with its hair set on fire, like wondering if all of their startup money is like insured. I mean, they, they sound like, you know, crypto degen. Yeah, it, it, it does sound de Jenny, but the thing is, is they, they thought they were putting their money into something that would be stable, but I don't know like how they could have that outlook on the treasury bonds, knowing that 25% of our money supply got printed the year prior, like at like, at some point in time that was gonna have to have some sort of effect. Roman, what's up man? I see you. And then average Andy, I see you got your hand up too. My phone. Sorry. My phone rugged me so I, uh, didn't get half of what you guys were talking about. Uh, treasury bonds have proven to be the most, the single most stable and safest investment in the history of modern investing. The United States has never once defaulted on any single payment in the history of its entirety, and it does not look like it plans on doing that anytime soon. Um, I would not hesitate. To put money into a treasury, a US treasury bond. If I'm a business, the, the real issue we're seeing here, I think, you know, that you guys were touching upon is that a lot of your money that the custodians, quote unquote, are supposed to, uh, have isn't really there when you need it. Right? So the problem is, uh, you're not quite sure the problem is you're not quite sure where your money goes when you deposit it. You just know you have access to it possibly. Uh, then, you know, the real, the real problem as we see it is, uh, because the, the obfuscation of funds and the way that the modern stratify system works, you end up having this kind of, uh, quote unquote, you know, chasm between the actual user. Uh, whereas it be the business, and I mean by end user, the, the actual person using banking services or entities and the, the nationalized system that has been created before us. So you kind of. More or less, uh, trust the US because the dollar is working everywhere at all times and it's the global currency still and will be for the foreseeable future. But as a user on the, uh, in the system, you don't have much, uh, real say, and you can't really control it, right? So like you can be cut out of the monetary system, you can cut, be cut out of the banking system if you're smart enough. Uh, and clever enough, you can obviously follow all the rules that, uh, will ensure your money, but, uh, you know, clearly a business cannot run, uh, profitably or well if it has to have like 900 bank accounts. Uh, so there's, you know, there's a whole problem, uh, that that needs to be fixed. And, and I would not say the treasury bonds are part of it though. That, that product. So this is the sort of time of year when I hop into Bitcoin maxi, like Twitter spaces, just to see like what drug they're pushing. And they're like very into the idea that institutions are gonna buy Bitcoin. I'm not sure that's accurate, but that's like, cuz that's kind of what they've been saying for years. I would love for that to happen. I still don't think it's gonna beat the bonds anytime soon. The the real, the real question is, why the fuck would you want to keep money in the bank? Because, you know, you're, you're not really earning much. And uh, if you go the T Bond way, the way they keep raising rates, you're guaranteed, you know, money, but now you're probably gonna suck it out of the actual money supply Well, my, my question is, my question is, where do you even keep your money then at this point? Right? Because if you can't, you can't trust the banks. And then on the crypto side thing, U S D C, deep pegged like. Almost 10 what? 10% or so? Um, so your money wasn't really even safe there. Um, and they also have, uh, exposure to, um, silicone Valley Bank as well. So it's like, where do you put your money, man? The shoebox under your mattress seems like the safest bet right now. Well, this is why the farmers, like, you've gotta hand it to the farmers back in the day, like during the depression, they, they like this type of behavior like has been repeating itself throughout generations. Right? This is not something new. This is the colonialist, you know, steel as much as you can mentality. And the farmers knew it. So like, yeah, stacking your, your stacks under your bed like actually had a lot of like validity to it. Cause it wasn't F D I C insured. It was insured by your gun in your house when mattress, like as a farmer, I, I wanna know, this is a question directly for Andy When mattress dow. Ooh. You know, it might pair well with the NPA data that we're starting for the nude upa. So, you know, naked UPA is in bed, does make quite a bit of sense. Um, so we'll have to look into Theos of, of said mattress token. Uh, but yeah, it's definitely high up on the radar things that I need to be looking at. Well, so where this get, like, why is this relevant to subnets and why is this relevant to Avalanche? They just, the CFTC just tapped, uh, goon, who's the C e O of AVA lab. They tapped him to be on the CFTC board of advisors, which is great news for Avalanche because it means they know that he knows what he's talking about. Right. Cftc, the, the guy, the, the head of the CFTC went to bat against Gensler recently and hammered for the third time that ETH is a commodity. Like that's really big news because Genzler is trying like, For all of the, you know, the red pillars out there. Like, it, it certainly appears like operation choke point is like, has some validity to it when you look at it, right? Like, e even you know, myself as a leftist, like I'm looking at that, that theory, and you're like, well, it's kind of hard to disprove that. So, like, the fact that goons on the CFTC board, like, that's really good. That's good for subnets, that's good for the space. Like we need someone sober who understands the fundamental science behind it to be advising these regulatory bodies. So that's, that's great news. Like we, as it relates to, uh, the, the, the, the macro that we're talking about now, like Tencent, Alibaba, and AW w s are involved in the subnet infrastructure. There's a reason for that, right? That's very good news. They're not in the polygon. SuperNet. They're not in cosmos, they're specifically in avalanche. Just also wanna give folks some quick stats on that. Those three partnerships are 42% of the market share of the, uh, of cloud services. Um, if, if we wanna know where the new internet's gonna be, I think we may have had Exactly. That's, that's the thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. And if, you know, if, if people want decentralization, like support nirvana, like by all means, or spin up your own paranoid bunker bare metal server. Yep. Ex Ex. Exactly. My friend also, I brought up Nick up here a while ago. Yeah. His hand up I've never called on him. Jump. Jump on in my friend Water's fine. Gentlemen, I've been kind of like a, a student the last few days trying to get this thing figured out in my head. So I guess if you take like a, a bit of a backstep here, so the fallout of what happened is you start with, uh, silver Gate Exchange, right? So in the crypto space, when I used to work for the custodian, uh, silver Gate and Signature Bank were the two big, very crypto friendly banks. They used to do a lot of banking for these two, like essentially everybody, like if you look at fire blocks, they partnered with the Silver Gate Exchange Network, the Send s e n they call it. So essentially what happened at Silver Gate and why this applies to U S D C, um, silver Gate essentially had bought a bunch of these bonds last year when, you know, the interest rates were very low. What happened is now you're fighting against the treasury bond. And I may not be using the right terminology here, but essentially the new bonds, let's say you bought them at 1.6%. And now they're 3.6%. You have to mark down that whatever, 2% gap, and that could be billions of dollars. And so these smaller regional banks in the US it's a very interesting banking system. In Canada, we don't have that so much. We have more of these, you know, big central banks or big national banks. But in the US there's thousands upon thousands of these community, regional banks, credit unions, those kinds of things. They just don't have trillions of dollars on the, on the asset, on their balance sheets, right? So when they had to mark down the bonds this year, it essentially caused disruption and panic within their investors. And what happened is Silver Gate was striking deals with, uh, VCs, with crypto companies for exclusivity. So what Roman was talking about is the future's gonna be, is distribution across a bunch of different banks, or most of the focus on these big national banks. But essentially when they marked all that down, uh, essentially they said, you know, it was on Sunday or whatever it happened, and then they had Monday was the big announcement that they would give 250 K to all their insured creditors. there's a shit ton of people that were uninsured creditors. And so how this worked with Circle and U S D C is they ended up getting their, whatever it was, 3 billion back, and now the peg is back up. So that was kind of a blip on the radar. But what happened is from, based on what they saw at Silver Gate, uh, the s e C then went after Signature Bank without even them having the issue yet, they kind of preemptively shut that down. And then the contagions spread across all of these regional community banks. So I was looking at a, a screenshot. It's like, um, you know, first West or First Republic, which has just got destroyed. Huntington Western Alliance, KeyBank, Zion's Regions, east West Bank, all of these sort of like regional or community banks, they just don't have the strength in their balance sheet. But they're all in the same boat as they were buying bonds when they were on the cheap, you know, a year and a half ago. And now, you know, the treasury rate, hiking the interest rates, they've gotta write this stuff. And the problem is, is this thing like a bank run, obviously, which was a new term for me. I had thought this stuff only happened in like, you know, developing countries. But essentially you guys saw the videos is as soon as panic unfolds, they halt all deposits. People show up at the door trying to bang on the glass to get their money out. So it's just kind of crazy how that happened. So what, what they're telling people is that essentially, you know, the big national banks are not going to fail or will never fail, quote unquote. Right? So, you know, for Brady's concept of where do you store your money, you're probably pretty safe with like a US Bank or a, a Bank of America or something like that. Same thing for meat in Canada, probably the top four big banks aren't going anywhere. They still have this risk. The problem, the thing is they have access to a ton of like the trillions and trillions of dollars on their sheet. Uh, so they can actually cover the deposit. But essentially what, what, uh, what landslide is saying is this nationalization of the banking system is you are now not gonna see a bunch of these regional banks survive in the US or at least, you know, international here. Um, anymore there's gonna be this kind of dropdown of everybody going to these big national banks and centralizing their funds there, uh, which is not great, right? So that's why you saw Bitcoin and a lot of that stuff bump over the weekend and over the last few days because of this like constant, like, where do I put my money? Where is it safe? Uh, but anyways, like I just wanted to, you know, share that. Cause I've been kind of following the story. It's super interesting to watch. Um, but yeah, like I, I don't think that U S TC or U S D C is a place to be scared of either that PEG or that DEG happened because they had assets tied up with S P B. Now their statement is that they have a bunch of backing, they've got a bunch of decentralization in terms of where they're holding their funds. So there's probably a little bit more safety there. But, uh, anyways, I know like Romans more on the banking side and you know, landslide as well. But I don't know if that description makes sense based on how I understood it. Yeah, that was, yeah, that's accurate. That's totally accurate. That was excellent, Nick. Thank you so much for that, that wrap up right there. Man, that was amazing. actually, Nick, you fucking killed it. Uh, you know what's even crazy that all of this was started by the very same VCs that like people look towards, uh, like helping shape the space. So the, the bank, oh yeah, dude, the ban one was Oh yeah. Off by the same people that put the money there in the first place. Well, what's so, what's so weird about this is like, we're here in a crypto like Twitter space, but like, remember big Bitcoin was started for this reason, right? In the Genesis block of Bitcoin, there's a code, there's like, you know, reverse text that says Chancellor on the brink of second bailouts for banks. And like, we've somehow like stupidly associated ourselves with stablecoin that would like back by Goldman and the very people that created the problem in the first place. right? Like, I mean, so, so U SDCs blowing up and Friday night were like, unless you have the information, which by the way, they had, and they didn't release until the following day, right? On Circle's website that they had to backstop. They could have just said it point blank when they, when it was going through the, through the floor, Hey guys we're backed up by X, Y, Z, but they didn't issue that for another 24 hours and follow the money on that. Like, it's not even a, a tin foil hat thing. It's like they could have obviously said that. Um, uh, right. So like then we're thinking, okay, is U S D C unbacked, like who's gonna step in? And then you think, Well, do I go with Tether? Well, tether was, was kicked out of New York State by Leticia James for fraud. Like, do they have the backing? Like they haven't provided any on, on chain attestations or like regular attestations. It's been years. Like people, you know, assuming that Tether is gonna explode, is this the time that it's at? You know? And like, you know, as a, as a degen, you're like, am I like, what's the safe asset here? Is it just sitting and validating and delegating? Like where, you know, it's like a, a complete, um, like unraveling of the general, like logic of the space. So here's a another couple of comments that if I can jump in here. So I heard Kevin O'Leary talk, and again, people love him, hate him, you, you name it, right? I'm not, I'm not gonna put an attitude around him, but the guy said yesterday, I know Brey, you said like, is big institutional money coming into Bitcoin? uh, the, the answer is yes, but not yet. Right? So we're all kind of sitting there waiting on the edge of our seats for regulation in the us and what O'Leary was exp uh, was explaining is he manages all sorts of sovereign wealth funds and pension funds. And he's like, that's the big dogs. That's the trillion dollar funds. That's the multi-billion dollar funds. They are not going to touch this stuff cuz they are stuck to play nice with the s e c. So essentially the way that we see this is it's just kinda like a waiting game until you see the big. So you guys can still hear me here? Yeah. Yeah. Got it. So, yeah, so until they like, sorry, until the s e c kind of like actually puts some regulation around or some ruling, you're never gonna see that big influx. So for the time being, it's probably gonna be a bunch of retail investors. So he says that he sees this thing bouncing between 17 and 25 K on Bitcoin for the next six to 12 months until regulation steps in. So, you know, he's like, if you like volatility, you like trading, this is the place to be. And that's always been where a lot of crypto folks have, have enjoyed their time is, you know, trading on both ups and downs. The other cool thing is, if you guys think about it, the bold case on this is, hey, you know, F O M C meeting is what next Wednesday, March 20th by Jerome, uh, Jerome Powell. So with this in mind, there's a lot of kind of people thinking that, Hey, wait a minute, maybe this guy finally sees. This like fallout has actually impacted people. I've read a lot of interviews and I don't know if you guys watched the YouTube videos of him. He seems to believe that they still have some work to do and like these things collapsing is part of the work they need to do. It's not gonna be pretty, it's not gonna be fun for everybody. It's just a bit of a shakeout. And like I said, so next week on Wednesday or whatever that is, just keep an eye out for what he comes up with as either a hawkish or a dovish statement. Whether he comes up with like a 0.25 or a 0.5 basis rate hike or a no hike. If he comes out and says, you know what? We fucked the system enough. We're gonna go with no rate hikes, man, I'm telling you, crypto's gonna explode. Everybody's gonna be jumping for joy. It doesn't mean good things cuz essentially it means that we didn't achieve the goal and we had to stop short because of the fallout. So I just wanted to say that out. Like for us in Canada they, the Bank of Canada just announced no rate hikes and so you had this like mixed market reaction of people kind of getting excited about it. Cuz you know, variable morg mortgage rates and the cost of lending is gonna essentially kind of plateau. But the reason is it's not good news, right? Like we haven't achieved the goal of dropping inflation down. Um, so they're just kind of playing around with that. So I'd say like anybody interested keeping out for like next Wednesday's session, I think it's the last Wednesday of the quarter. Um, and so he's gonna have that next week. And I think you'll see before, like the night prior to people kind of who have some of the news, you'll see some of the activity happening. And then day of at like, I think 2:00 PM Eastern, you'll see what kind of unfolds and then that'll determine how the whole next quarter looks. So it, it's kind of crazy to think that next Wednesday is, is that important as a pinnacle date, for example? Yeah. Just gotta, sorry, just gotta pop in real quick folks. I, I really apologize cause the convo is so great. I want to keep. But we are, unfortunately, uh, we have, we have run out of time, unfortunately, folks. Um, so I will, yeah, I'm sorry. Averaging, I'm really sorry, I, dude, I wanna start talking. I wanna keep talking about it too, man. But Crypto world, we got meetings and shit, man. It's all sorts of things going down Doug. Um, but really, really appreciate this, this panel discussion that has kind of, that has evolved, man. Uh, I wanna say I really appreciate Devin and Danny, uh, of Nirvana Labs for sliding out today. It's been, um, really, really great having you folks, and we, and we really learned a lot about, uh, subnets and the, and, uh, everything that is, uh, going on underneath the surface. Now what I do also want to do is open this up for some closing remarks. Really quick, just from, uh, everyone up here who are, are speakers, uh, I'm gonna start off with Nick at Chain Stack. I'm gonna give you the floor of my friend. You got anything you'd like to remote? Any closing remarks for us? Oh, amen. Uh, just wanted to say again. Love you guys. Go, go pool. Super excited to be part of the infrastructure space. I'm ultra bullish on subnets. Um, you know, we're definitely pounding the pavement. You know, I've got a couple more subnets that are launching in the next few weeks, so keep an eye out for some of the cool names coming out. Um, you know, from the Nirvana LA side lab side of things, you know, Danny, Devin, big fans of yours, um, SAVI Defi launching 21st of March. Man, I can't wait. It's been a hell of a drive to get there. Um, so other than that, just, you know, wishing everybody the best. Keeping out for next week and, uh, let's go. Savvy man. You gotta, you gotta love and appreciate Nick's energy. He always come with the, with, with the vibe, man. Uh, Nick, will you be at, will you be at Summit Nick? You know what, that'll depend. I got a newborn at home brother, so I think with summits in, in April or May or something. So we'll see. It's a bit of a stretch for me, man. No, understandably so, man, you gotta, you gotta focus on the young man, but you know, if you do, if you do get the, get the chance to come out, man. Definitely gotta, definitely gotta grab a beer with you or something. Um, now next up I'm gonna have Danny, go ahead my friend. You got the floor, you got me closing remarks, anything you'd like to promote? Just, uh, you know, wanna thank you guys for, for having us on. Um, you know, I'm just so bullish on the, the build this year in the space. I think everyone here is just building amazing products, right? Landslide, Google Pool savvy. Everyone else that we've spoken to, um, we revenues really trying to push the ecosystem forward. So, um, here's support you guys any way we can, you know, partnership synergies, align. Absolutely. Let's do it. Um, you know, big fan of all the builders here in the space and looking forward to seeing Avalanche kind of become the defacto, uh, you know, ecosystem moving forward. and I appreciate you, Danny, man, I really appreciate you and Devin for, for sliding out today. Man, you, you guys got just a, a wholesome knowledge in that, in those brains there. And you know, it's always great to have some gigo brains, um, in, in the panel here. Now Roman, you're next up my friend. You got any closing remarks? Anything that you would like to remote? I already know what you should be promoting. Uh, I'm gonna leave the promoting to the logo, but, uh, you know, thank you Brey and Gogo Pool for hosting, uh, this space with us in landslide every Wednesday. You guys are pre very predictably, uh, you know, reliable, which is hard to say in blockchain sometimes, even though blocks are supposed to be reliable. Um, you know what I mean? But yeah, I wanted to say thank you guys for hosting. Uh, it's really, it's really like awesome being a, you know, part of the community with you guys. Uh, really excited for Savvy coming, you know, in five days we're about to start and, uh, it's. pretty wild. Took, took a while to get here, but we're, you know, we're, we're happy to be here. Um, on the whole like, SVB bank thing, yeah, we're, we're seeing signs of a nationalization of our banking system. But, uh, let's, let's be really clear. No taxpayer money was directly involved and, and covering anything that was missing. Uh, F D C is insured by the banks themselves and funded by the banks themselves. Um, so, you know, just to be clear, there's a lot of shenanigans happening inside the banking system right now. Uh, a lot of uncertainty and, uh, you know, I think crypto's gonna help shape that in the future, which is why we're all building here. But, uh, let's not get too hyperbolic. Uh, this is, this is not a great thing, but it, we've seen. You know, so I just wanted to leave you guys with that on the bank side. But, uh, thank you for hosting this space. I'm really excited to, uh, come back next week and the week after that and after that. So let's fucking do it. Let's do it. Savvy and 3, 2, 1. Super excited about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, so, I, so Roma wouldn't do it, but I will give you the seamless plug. Savvy is, uh, launching. We have the fair launch on 3, 2, 1, uh, on 11:00 AM e s t we're actually gonna be having, uh, what we're calling a house party. It's almost like a telethon sort of late night talk show where we're gonna have like a, a few hour space just have people come in, rotating through and, and, and come in and talk about whatever they want to talk about. So we're gonna send an invite out to all our friends out here, um, come talk about, you know, uh, svb, talk about subnet, talk about whatever you want. So we'll send the invite out to you guys. Um, we're so happy to launch. We're so happy to have you. And I wanna give a major shout out to. So you breathing to, into landslide over there. You guys, um, one of the things I really appreciate about this space is how you, how you're able to both blend the, the depth of knowledge that people like, uh, like Nathan, I believe that landslide has and, and like Roman has in the finance space, and Nick has in the finance space, and how you can blend that and still make it approachable for everyone who's sort of new to any given sector of, of Web three. Um, and, and, and I and I as a listener, uh, appreciate that and I as a, as a host, love that because it makes this such a better space for everyone. So, so thank you for doing that. And I, and it, and it just gives me like good vibes to that. So looking forward, um, hopefully talking to you guys next, next Tuesday, the 21st, and definitely talking to you guys next week for the G G P, um, the AVAC ecosystem. Yo, appreciate that love, man. Really, really do. Um, you know, I, I try to make this space as accessible for as many people as possible. Uh, the, the hope is that, and, and, and I love that you said that, man, cuz you know, it makes me feel like I'm, I'm doing a pretty good job. So, uh, really, really appreciate you for that dude. Um, uh, also, uh, Don't forget that Savvy is launching on March 21st. Everybody, we've been saying 3, 2, 1. I wanna make it explicit. March 21st, baby. Um, and I guess I'm last up here with the closing remarks. We got a lot of big things going on with Gogo Pool. Uh, we're launching soon, folks. We're doing a ab, we're doing a token offering with Avalanche, and that's coming up very soon. Can't tell you the date, but when I will, when I can, you definitely will have that date, but until now, you'll get continuously teased as I've been doing for the last three or four months. Um, but you ain't gonna have to wait too long. That's all I really have to say. Uh, so we got Avalanche Token offering coming up. Uh, this Monday we're gonna have meet the Subnets with Hubble Exchange. It's gonna be a, it's gonna be a new thing that we're gonna be doing where we're gonna bring, bring on subnet projects and interview them specifically about what it's been like building the sub. And then how validators can get involved, um, as far as validating their network. So it's, it's gonna be, um, it's gonna be a really, really fun one we are working on. Um, we have a broadcast too. It's gonna be a live broadcast, not Twitter spaces. It's Twitter spaces. Fucking sucks. Also on that very note, HARs in the chat, everybody, we're getting this thing off of fucking Twitter spaces guys, cuz Twitter spaces is horrible. And we're, and we're broadcasting this live via Twitter, right? This is, this is nine times outta 10 gonna be the last AVAs ecosystem space held on a Twitter space. Cuz Twitter space is horrible and we're gonna lot, we're gonna broadcast them live via Twitter and on YouTube, but we'll have a lot more information for you folks soon. Still doing some testing, but the idea is for it to start next week. That is the idea and that is the hope. Um, so doing some testing on that now. But, you know, really just doing whatever we can to improve this space and make this show a lot better, um, for you avac community members out there, and all you folks out there who are excited about some nets. Um, so yeah, that's all we got here for today, folks. I'm gonna say my usual thing, you already know, we do this weekly, every single Wednesday at 3:00 PM e s t. I don't know if you guys remember back in the day when people used to actually watch TV where there used to be a show that you, that would come on every single Monday at 7:00 PM and you knew that show was coming on every Monday at 7:00 PM where you need to think of that. You need to think like that for the Ava ecosystem space. Baby B, because that's what the fuck we do every single Wednesday. Woo. 3:00 PM bst. We are right here dog. Yeah. Nathan coming with the right energy man. We are right here on Twitter. We are gonna be doing this live. You're gonna have visuals. You gonna be able to see my pretty face And Nathan's pretty face and Nick's pretty face cause Nick is pretty, y'all don't know this, but Nick is pretty But really appreciate everybody for sliding out today. It has been absolutely lovey lovely, uh, having you folks as a audience. Um, really appreciate y'all. I'm gonna say my usual thing and say you don't gotta go home, but you gotta get up outta here friends. Peace.