Using AVAX Liquid Staking to Expand the AppChain Economy

GoGoPool, Landslide + Savvy DeFi brought Steven Gates Founder/CEO of GoGoPool on to talk about how his decentralized liquid staking protocol will help expand the AVAX Subnet economy.

Social Links:
GoGoPool Twitter: https://twitter.com/GoGoPool_
Savvy DeFi Twitter: https://twitter.com/SavvyDeFi
Landslide Twitter: https://twitter.com/CosmosAVAX

Transcript

0:00

I would like to welcome everyone to the Avax ecosystem space. I am one of your hosts. My name is Brey. I am go. I'm on the Gogo Pools marketing team. We already centralized liquid staking protocol with the specific vision of expanding the subnet economy. And, and, and the moment that you all have been waiting for has arrived. For one thing, our lovely speaker, Steven Gates, has arrived and. The Go Pool Id has arrived as well. Nathan, let me get a, lemme get a applause for that man. We need an applause and you can, yeah, yeah. Not investment advice for no US people, not an investment contract. Get the heck out. Yes, yes. N f a everybody n f a. But if you would like to register, um, we would go ahead and I'll throw up that link as soon as I get done with my spiel here. Um, I'm also joined by my lovely co-host that is Alex Lumley of s Defi. Say, what's up my friend? What's up? What's up? What's up? I've been looking forward to this day for so long, so excited to have be here with you guys. Y'all excited to be here with you as well. And SAVI Defi is actually announced some very, very big things as well. We gonna talk about it a little bit later, but I'm gonna just mention it and not say what it is to keep you in suspense. I'm also joined by my other lovely co-host, Nathan Windsor of Landslide. Say, what's up my friend? Hey guys. Dubnet Summit was a great success. We're gonna pivot into, in, in, into a regular channel. We've got a hundred thousand views on the move vm, uh, since Monday. It was crazy. So congrats to everyone for free marketing. Let's get it. And I'm also joined here by Roman of Savvy D five. Say, what's up Roman? Hey, what's everybody? Gm. Gm. Really excited to be here with you guys. Really excited for the idea. O two and second to last, and not second to least. I'm also joined by my lovely friend here, Mike King. Cough of Go, go Pool. Say What's up my friend? What's up everybody? Happy to be here. Really excited about all the updates everyone's got today. It's, uh, it's gonna be a good one. Oh yeah. And last, but of course, nowhere near the least. We have the man, the myth, the legend, Stephen Gates, founder and c e o of Gogo Pool. Say, what's up my friend? Hello. Hello. Thanks, Lee. Awesome. Red carpet intro there. Uh, yeah. Great to be here. I think today is freaking awesome. Yesterday's awesome. Tomorrow's gonna be even better. Aios been announced just having tons of calls with people, uh, making sure everyone's, you know, kind of thinking and kind of aligned the same way, but super exciting stuff. Yeah, man. Everything. Yeah, this is, this is huge, man. To everyone's out there, man. Gogo Pool, i d registration has started. Um, this is an absolutely huge moment and we're gonna be going ahead and putting the fire, the gas that's gonna start the fire for the subnet economy. Um, so yeah, landslide, you know what it is. So we're gonna start everything today. Just gonna give everybody the agenda. First things first, we're gonna start off with an interview with Steven about Gogo Pool, everything that we're doing. We're gonna give a project overview why we chose subnet. We're gonna go over the id, um, information as well. And then we're gonna talk about landslide. They had a huge release recently in their core, so we're gonna go ahead and talk to'em about that a little bit later. And then, of course, we're gonna talk to s Defi about that announcement that they just announced as well. Um, but first things first, to kind of start everything off, Steven. For everyone out here who somehow does not know about Google Pool, can you just give us a quick overview? Yeah, absolutely. So our mission is to help builders bring blockchain technology to the world. And we've chosen making Sumits easy be our vehicle for that. You know, the first generation of blockchains, people may have heard, already heard this avalanche pitch before, but first generation of blockchains literally can't support how much demand there is for web three, especially going for the next 2, 3, 4 years in the next 2, 3, 4 years. You know, these humongous bands brands will be deploying huge user experiences with the web three components to them. Um, and by process elimination, their only choice really is subnets, but subnets have a couple barriers to them. And Google Pool is a permissionless staking protocol that helps subnets ship and launch faster by using liquid staking on the G G P token. So today, or yesterday, I guess the registration opened for the I D O, um, and. Pretty great. It's like we're starting off with very long-term aligned investors and now we wanna rope in the community. And then over the next 12 months, I think are gonna be a critical inflection point for both the avalanche ecosystem. Um, obviously also for Gogo Poll, but also for subnets. And I think the next 12 months if we really kind of play our cards right as a community, we really nailed this thing. Then that'll set us up for when permissionless subnets start really zooming, really taking off. That's what's gonna kick off the 24 months after that, where we think that in the future, three years from now, vast majority, 80% plus of blockchain networks will actually be run as a subnet on Avalanche and hopefully Google Pool is instrumental to that success by providing subnet, tooling, community support, and also the staking. First off, you gotta love the vision coming from Steven, right? Because he's, he's not just thinking, you know, right now in the present, you know, he's talking to you about three years down the line. You know, he's not trying, we're not fill, fulfilling some roadmap that we're, we're, we're gonna be done by q2. And that's it. You know, we're talking about three years down the line building until we kind of reach this WordPress moment for Web three. And actually since, since I kind of mentioned that, can Steven, can you talk about that vision, about that, that WordPress moment that we're trying to create? Totally. And real quick to double tap into what you're saying, Bre, I think that's something that overall needs to change about the Avalanche community. I think this like the, if you look at the best networks in crypto, they're the very diamond hands community. Cuz everyone is aligned to the same end point, right? And then it's just the question of, okay, we all want the same thing. How do we work backwards from there and reverse engineer our way to that point. And I think with that comes maintaining a really high standard quality in the ecosystem. And I'm really excited about how Google pull, you know, I'm really, this whole thing is to create a vehicle for the community to inject kind of energy, enthusiasm into the whole space, especially around the future of web three. Um, so that we can all kind of work together on this thing. And that naturally results in a lot of diamond enhancing. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to clear that up cause I feel like that's something I've been getting more and more obsessed about. The more I talk to the community and I'm kind of like meeting everybody, um, is this, this idea of very high standard quality, all mission oriented. Um, what was the question? Revie? Uh, a slight, oh yes, there it is. No, it came back to me. Um, can you talk a little bit about your, your future vision, that WordPress moment for web three? Yeah, so I think, okay, like in 2008 onwards, we lived in a world where the internet was new. Infrastructure was getting figured out, but we lived in the world where people like Airbnb and Uber, the most common sarp advice was, Hey, if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a builder, throw up a landing page. Spend 500 bucks on like Facebook ads to drive traffic to it, and it just works. If the page gets really popular, you don't have to go dig in deep into the infrastructure and kind of help it grow, help it scale. Like no, the infrastructure was there for people, which really enabled builders to then create the Ubers and the Airbnbs of the world. Fast forward to today in blockchain technology and with web three like blockchain so far, people think of crypto as cryptocurrency, but it's also cryptocurrency plus blockchain, and we're really focused on this blockchain side, like how can we provide such an easy blockchain experience for people so that they can get that same sort of. WordPress, like the same sort of landing page experience that people have in web two so that a builder can launch a subnet, have it get managed by professionals. They don't need to worry about the infrastructure as much anymore, and now they get to play with the core blockchain technology and create like, God. It's hard to explain, but they need to bring, builders are natural creative people and they'll be creating totally new user experiences, like things that we haven't even thought of before, but be, and that's all enabled by this blockchain technology. But the big friction point is right now, just getting something that can work and can scale is really, really tough. And that's what Global Post focus on. And that's why we say that our chosen vehicle for the mission statement is by making some, it's easy because we think by, you know, process elimination only subnets really can scale out from having a hundred transactions a month up to millions of transactions per month. So you brought up a great issue and that's about, you know, scaling, uh, web three. Steven, can you talk about, you know, some of the pain points we're currently experiencing in Web three as far as it's, it's scaling issues, and then how, uh, subnets alleviate those pain points? Totally. I think the, and Nate, Nathan, I'm gonna loop you in here cause I think you have a really interesting perspective as well, right? Looking at Tender Mint, working on working with Tender Mint and all that. Um, but from my perspective, like the most obvious thing is the first generation blockchains things that got really big, big Bitcoin, Ethereum. As soon as anything non-trivial launched on Ethereum, it's like, all right, gasbys now 20 bucks to$200, right? It's like every time I talk about credit card, I have a$50 processing fee and I take six minutes for it to settle. That's ridiculous. You know, it's like if you're call duty or if you're World Warcraft and you want to implement some sort of empty marketplace, Well, you know, you, you can't have six minute wait times and have any transaction that is happening inside of the game in real time. You can't have that with really low late, or you can't have super high latency for that and how to be very costly. But Nathan, what do you think, what's your perspective on how are the other tech kind of working right now and what makes Hub Nets different? Um, it's the consensus Anan. It's the consensus. They built Avalanche as like, it's a multi chain system. There's no way to scale layer ones, which is why layer twos exist. There's no way to scale layer twos, which is why layer threes exist. It's like waiting for Gado, like waiting for the consensus to get fixed. It doesn't fix the underlying issues. I'm gonna crawl back into my bunker, you know? No, I mean, I think it's true. So the consensus, super scalable, extremely fast. Yeah, it doesn't create reorgs, you know, every 15 minutes. Like it just works. And as a web two person, for me, as in my previous builder life, running a web two startup looking to, okay, how can I bolt on web three experience to all this stuff? It's like the average consensus is basically what you want. It's like, I don't have you think about it, it works, it can scale. And it's kind of like my website. The website just scales by itself. Um, like I don't have to like, worry about this, the guts and yeah, how consensus, totally unique. And then coupled that by powering, letting anybody create their own blockchain and just have it be powered by this consensus instantly. Um, now that's, that's transformative in my opinion. Yeah, I, I think when, um, you know, when, when me and you first talked last year, ooh, crazy. It's, it was last year anyway, uh, when me and you first talked, what, when maybe you just, you know, really, really, you know, love your vision, you know, for Gogo Pool was that, you know, kind of notion where you're, you're kind of thinking about everyone, right? Like, you know, some people kind of come out with projects and they kind of more so just think of defi and, you know, how Defi is, you know, currently. But, you know, Steven really had a vision for the future, you know, when it comes to subnets, you know, he's thinking of subnets from a perspective that, you know, I, I think that everyone should kind of think of from like a very like Web West perspective from that, you know, that website kind of perspective where, you know, hell. WordPress, you have to do plug-ins, but you know, it's a site called Wicks where you can drag and drop. You know, who knows? Like everything can kind of grow to even, maybe even be drag and drop and you can eventually start up a blockchain. You know, who knows where this can grow to, but it's just really kind of amazing to see like, you know, your, your to hear about your vision. Steven, my bad. You? What's up bro? It's gonna be chat. G b t. We're running good to a world where chat gt generating subnets, create their own blockchain experiences. It's gonna happen. Yo, you're gonna build that. Who's building that? I feel like that's a binger idea I'm in. I will fund it, dude, that the future, we gotta understand. Everyone here has to understand the future of interface is voice. The future of interface is Scarlet Johansen talking to you on your phone, telling you about, asking you about what the subnet is that you wanna create, and then you just giving her money and it runs. That's the future of the interface, dude. Totally. Yeah, that's, yeah, that, that's a man. Can you, can you applause or give me like a sound, gimme something on the sound there. It's, oh, I need something on the soundboard for hours. That is amazing, my friend. Now Steven, we gotta, we gotta talk a little bit about, you know, what Go Pool. Because Go Pool is, has, has been doing things, you know, um, in the infrastructure realm, in the background for, for a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about like, hunting party, like what we did with hunting party and just a quick overview of like, you know, what that was. Yeah. So hunting party was stepping or putting, dipping our toe into the pool of, all right, here we are. The smart contract protocol at this point has been fully audited, so it's like, now it's just getting the legal stuff and whatever to get to launch. Um, it's like, okay, now let's start helping. So, We met the OPAs team fairly early on, and they're building out their own kind of video game experience, kind of like an animal crossing experience. They wanted to set up a tournament for the first mini game, and they wanted it to run on subnet so they could prove that it could, but also create a gases experience to their, uh, to their community. So then the question was, all right, they want a subnet now. They need to customize it. Someone needs to run the subnet. It's like, you know, where's the avac come from? Where's the hardware come from? Um, so that's where we started working with, uh, the APAs team or the UPA team around, okay, how can we design experience in experience for their community? That feels like web two, it's gas less, but everything that's dropped and everything that's picked up, et cetera, everything that's won was as an N F T and saved on the subnet. Um, and then that will, it's like the, their first proof of concept that, okay, we can create this type experience and then we can scale it from there. Um, so yeah, we were just, it was awesome working with the team and you know, I, I think really it feels to me like they did 90% of the work. Like they're so incredibly hardworking. Um, but yeah, we do, we could and kind of helped accelerate their launch timelines and helped them ship a lot faster because we were able to be a good partner on the subject side of things. Uh, another cool thing that, you know, I personally loved about the, the hunting party experience is, you know, during a time in the bear market where, you know, the market was down a lot of, you know, negative things were kind of happening around the space. And I, I just think the overall kind of morale was a little bit low at the time. You know, this hunting party event was kind of a way for the Ava community to come together and, you know, just simply have fun. And what, what I really also loved about it was the fact that it was working on a sub. But it was one of those things to where if you were just a player, you might not even know that, you know, you're, you're coming in and you're just connecting your meta mask and then you just hit play. There's no, there's gas is transaction, so you're not worrying about that at all. Um, and, you know, I just thought it was, it was a really nice kind of, uh, example of what the future can be, right? With this, uh, that hunting party event showed us, um, probably it, it created the playbook. Now the playbook can get run, right? It starts like, here's a reasonable subnet, pretty cheap, pretty cost effective. Like, let's just set up and get going. Um, I think we're building on top of this and stay tuned for another announcement around this, especially at the summit. But yeah, very exciting. Remember guys, stay tuned for the announcement, and I'm gonna be teasing the announcement up until Summit, so I'm gonna just keep messing around with your heads until then. But just letting you know, like that announcement that we're, that we're gonna be doing at SU at Summit is going to be absolutely huge and it is really gonna put gas on the summit fire for sure. Uh, now Steven, I really, really wanna talk to you about, you know, what's going on with the I D O. Can you talk a little bit about how people can participate or landslide? Did you have a question real quick before we go into that? No. No. Nope. Okay. Well, yes, uh, ID, how can people participate? So, audio is happening on Ava launch. Um, go to their website, click on the sales page, and then you'll see Google Pool being featured and you can read all about the project, TGE, Technomics, all that type of stuff. Uh, if you wanna run a valor node. So you need the G G P token to run a valid node. If you wanna run a valor node, hit me up in a Twitter dm. And we can set something up. Um, but yeah, overall it's awesome working with Avalanche. And they're amazing partners. Like their crushing quality is extremely high. This is, uh, I'm a little bit nervous, but also pretty excited. Cause I know this is a very different type of launch than what people are used to, right? Like, this isn't a game, this isn't a Defi project. This is very much infrastructure, like longer term. This is like a 1236 month play. Um, so very curious to see, you know, so far the reception's been incredible. Like the number keeps doubling for our signups. Um, plus everyone keeps telling me like the community says, you know, I'm, I'm signing up on the very last day. I was like, okay. Um, so we'll see how it goes. It's, it's really fun. And the vibe has been phenomenal. I think we're doing an ama later today, actually. Oh, that's dope. Where's that? Where can people, is that gonna be on Twitter space? The ama, I think it's in their tug game chat. Um, people should follow me on Twitter and follow Hey, for launching Twitter and then. A little bit close to announcements about it. Sfa your hands raise. What's up? Yeah, I was, I was just starting to look into the article. I just wanna know, kind of, can, can you explain a little bit about how the ID process works? I know there's like a signup, but what does the signup for, what does that get me? And I know there's like, it seems like there's a cap at three end K. Um, can you just explain a little bit more about how how it'll actually work? Yeah. So the sizing is food ink. 50,000 of that is you serve for valor nodes. So two 50,000 is for the broader community. And then the way it works is when you sign up, go through the registration process, you have to K YC to prove that you're non-us. This is for non-US entities only. Um, no US people allowed no handlers get outta here. N F A n. F A n F A. Um, but yeah, so this is for non-us. You would k y C through their registration process takes like two minutes. Um, and then once you sign up they're, they have like a valued around a staking round, maybe there's some gold stickers round as well first. And then there's a boost around at the end. And, um, basically just follow their process. It's pretty simple. Registrations are from yesterday to, I believe it's Friday and then the sale, I believe happens on the 25th and the 26th. So validators, um, validators are getting ready for the 25th. And then on the 26th is when, um, non-value participate, anything not sold on the value ground gets rolled over to the sticking round. And then on the 27th is like a rest day for our team to double check everything. And then on the 28th is going to be tge and it's like, okay, protocols, permissionless, liquidity, pool is on Cheddar Joe. Like, you know, let's fucking go. You mean less fucking go, go L fg, G. Oh, I just got that. That makes so much more sense. I get it. We, we've been just tweeting it out, but like we never actually told anybody what it means. I honestly, I honestly just assumed you couldn't spell, um, case, but, uh, you know, yeah. This still does not prove that I can spell just one. Put that out there. Um, Steven, uh, I know, I know you gotta head out very, very soon. Um, but could you briefly just kind of go over the G g P token? Well actually can you briefly go over g g Avax? Cause I know that you're, that it's been created in a new token standard and kind of wanna have you talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So new standard, my brain is kind of fried, 45, 46, 26, I believe. Um, new token, it's not an ERC 20, it's a vault. So mechanically what that means is that it's, The redemption rewards based off of the ownership share of how much of you, how much do you own in the vault? So rewards are streamed back to liquid steak and token, and people can withdraw the rewards as they want in real time. Um, it's being streamed. Other protocols do it like every two weeks. Rewards are returned back to Liquid Steak Token. For us, it's being streamed out over time. So it's a nice linear increase. There's no weird jumps. Um, and then because we're using this new token standard, uh, it's gonna make it a lot easier for other people to create integrations on top of the liquids. Taking token, and I think that's something we'll be focusing on pretty heavily post summit is how can we make this token maximally useful to both subnets as well as the defi? I think so far one thing unique to us, everybody focuses on liquid sticking as a defi tool. I think for us, we're approaching this fundamentally differently. Like, no, this is an infrastructure tool and this can be used as a powerful way to help subnets launch faster. So definitely expect us to. You know, we'll be leaning on the community and working heavily with the community to design the future of the token and how can make it excellent, useful for some that, to help them launch faster. Um, but yeah, that's g g Avax in a nutshell. It's swap avax for the liquids, taking token. Uh, and then now this g G Avax can be used and spent in any way that Apex can be just spent. You can hold it, you can spend it, you can put it in D five protocols. Um, and then as time goes on, we'll be opening up some subject use cases. Is there, is there like a, um, a, a sort of a risk assessment, um, like content piece? Like, cause I, I think the most conservative position you could take in the space right now is just to validate and delegate. And so I'm curious to understand like, as a totally as a degenerate what that risk profile looks like by moving into this ecosystem. So the good news is that on avalanche there's a lot less risk than on say, Ethereum. Cuz Ethereum had their withdrawals locked and because withdrawals were locked, it created enormous pressure onto s steth with the Leidos stake teeth token, their liquid stick token. And that's how you saw it start getting deep pegged cuz it's like people can't withdraw, but people will need to exit their position. You know, it starts getting weird, um, on avalanche that doesn't exist because withdrawals can happen every two weeks essentially. Um, so it's a much more free form token for sure. And then in terms of other risks, I should also say, you know, I'm probably like the worst salesperson ever because I heavily disqualify things, uh, like disqualify people. Like if you're worried about smart contract risk or if you have a large amount of AVAs, but you just want to like, stay on the p chain, the legal state token's, probably not for you, you know, for, for these people to stay tuned. We're. Working on a more direct way that doesn't involve defi. It seems right now that liquid staking is like, if you're interested in defi or interested in defi with subnets, that's what liquid staking seems to be really, really good for. But if you wanna directly help subnets without having to expose yourself to smart contract risk, you know, stay tuned. There's some cool stuff kind of being cooked up on and being ideated. Yeah, that's interesting. I'm not sure, like, I'm not concerned about smart contract risk. Um, I don't, I think that's rather low. Um, I'm just trying to understand like general, I, I guess general performance metrics, like if the, if the lowest, the lowest risk is, let's say, let's say just staking, right? Just let, let's say delegating. What, what I'm, I'm just trying to like get what's the decision tree outside of that. Like, okay, next is Gogo port. What, how do, what are my risk tree? What's the risk tree look like? Yeah. Smart contract risk. Okay. I get that. I, I, I don't think, I don't think that's that big of a risk. What do you think, Nathan? What else? We can go onto that tree and sadly I've got, this is probably worth its own space, which we probably should do, but I Yeah, I'd be glad to do it. I, I think there's a, there is some regulatory risk that is, you know, Gensler True, whatever. Okay. So there's that. Yeah. If you're a US based, yeah. Yeah. Another one is probably taxes. It can make taxes more annoying depending on where you live. Yeah. But you could, yeah, you could automate that with like a, a, a, you know, token tax account. Um, well, more depends. Um, more like what I've seen, especially on if, depending on where you live, it's a big question of. Is it a tax event when you swap my Ava? Oh yeah, right. Swap avax for the, um, Sava, right? Like, is that a tax event question mark? Nobody really knows. So depending on, you know, I think that's a fair risk to say. It's like the accounting of all this. Yeah, I, I would, um, I would love to do just a regulatory, like, you know, put on my spaghetti strainer and, and talk about regulatory scrutiny as a, as a investment strategy. Totally. I'm done for it. I've gotta hop now guys, but this was awesome. Glad I was able to talk to everybody. Like, good questions Nathan. I think we should definitely set something up to talk more about it. Yeah. Overall super fucking exciting. And I know next up is talking about landslide and your guys big open source moment. Oh, of course. Congratulations to, to the Gogo team. Thanks. No, absolutely guys. Thanks everybody. Chat soon. And now we turn our attention to landslide. You, you care about that. We but you, we don't wanna, you don't wanna give some props to Arrow. I mean, arrow's going live, man. Like our, our repo's out. But I would, if you wanna talk about Arrow, we can show them some love. I'm down to give props to anybody in ecosystem. This is the ecosystem space. My friend. Can, can Arrow. Can Arrow come up here? And is that li If, if it's true, I'd love to hear it. Arrow. Arrow has been invited. Okay. Uh, arrow speak now, or for Heather hold you a piece. Yes. I just, I just, uh, I just pinged Dro, uh, and let me know. Okay. Um, but in the, but in, in the meantime, I, I, I did wanna ask something. Na Nathan and, um, Nathan Andrey, there's someone on Google Pool, put out an amazing blog post. So long, all about the comparison of, uh, interoperability, subnets, pair chains, et cetera. And I was just like plugging it into like, it's so long. You have to, you have to plug it into chat bt seven times. Um, if, if at some point, if, if, if, if, if you guys want give the, uh, explain it to me around five. Are we gonna wrap about it? Yes. Oh, even better. Please, Mr. Rogers on it. I would love that. Uh, it's, it's, it's called a comparative analysis on interoperability, subnets para change in zones. Yeah. Yo, I'm, I'm always down to, to rap about that. Um, look, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna give my opinion and Oh man, arrow's actually up here now. Great. So I, so we could take this conversation in so many different ways, cuz I was about to go hard on polka dot. Oh, okay. So the thing, okay, so here's the thing on polka dot, here's the alpha. The alpha on polka.is before we get arrow and, and uh, just, you know, drop arrow right there. The thing on polka.is polka dot basically next week or like. In the next two weeks, we'll start talking to I b, C and, and, uh, composable built with Strangelove. Uh, they built the polka.like client, so it's not just so once, once the avalanche, like client goes live. All of these, the, the, the, the, the para chain analysis, the competitive analysis that, that Gogo pool wrote, all of those will take place on avalanche subnets, right? So near Ripple, there's even gonna be an eth I b C bridge. Um, but, but polka.as a like polka dot vm, which is, they, they, they also built a repo composable built a repo called excess vm, which allows polka dot para chains to run their VMs on avalanche without the grandpa consensus. That's literally what their consensus is called, among other things, which is covered in the, in this medium article. Okay, let me make sure I am processing all of this. Um, it's, it's gonna be possible for polka dot, um, para change to build applications on subjects. Yes. Thank you. Okay. And near and near as well. And ripple all of these, because it, it's right. If you think about I b c expanding, its sort of tendrils into other chains via these light clients, you're gonna see, you know, people basically shipping data packets across I b C to run their apps on other, uh, relays. Is, is so it's flowing. So it's polka.to I b C two subjects. That's right, that's right. Okay. That's right. Is that going to affect like transaction finality at all for it to go through all those? Yep. Yeah. It, it, it, you'll, you'll see the transaction finality create an arbitrage. Right. Mm. Okay. So there's gonna be like a new basically industry of arbitrage created cause of this. Oh, yeah, yeah. Where people are basically arbitrage between chains. Yeah. Totally interesting. There's gonna be like skip money. If you take a look@skip.money, they're gonna be sort of critical in this because their, their protocol basically takes some of these MEV trades and, and hands them back to users, uh, token holders I should say. So they, they execute those MEV trades to prevent MEV from happening. So MEV will be a thing as it is for a little while, but, but that, that will kind of go away depending on how, uh, how the protocols implement this sort of MEV bot. Anyway. Got you, got you. Okay. We're this, this entire conversation, it seems like is very, very deep and one that should probably have its own space. Um, yeah, yeah. Let's give it to Arrow Man. I wanna hear from them. Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's give it to Arrow. Um, so Arrow, I'm, I'm not very familiar with, uh, arrow. Can you just give like a quick overview for everyone else? Hey guys. Yeah. Um, so we are an options protocol and for a long time we've been building an options a m m, but there are a lot of challenges involved in this process and, you know, most of them are to do with pricing and hedging. So, We realized that to get to market, like we can build products that will help us get to this, uh, goal of an options am. M why options? Um, because options can be the building blocks of like, like financial markets. With options, you can replicate pretty much any payoff you want. You could replicate with a series of options. You could replicate like futures or perps. Um, you can go long volatility, short volatility. You can go, you can be super bullish, uh, around a certain range. You can be super bearish or, um, you can earn yield by selling call options. If you believe avalanche will be range-bound for a certain period of time. And that's exactly what our first product is. It's a CS o v. Call credit spread, like call credit spread option vault. And what these vault allow you to do is deposit funds into a warp where, where there's a strike price specified. So, you know, right, right now if you go to Walt dot Arrow Markets and you click on launch beta, you know, you'll see that E is at 1981 and you could deposit funds into a call credit spread where the strikes are 27 40 and 2318. Real, real quick, what's a strike? Yes. Uh, yeah, please ask me questions. I'm not, I was like, I need to know the strike is he's gonna be, uh, yeah. So for a call option. The strike price is the price at which the option payoff starts to kick in. So the definition of a call option is, it's the right, but not the obligation to buy an asset at price X. So if E is at 1981 right now, and you think that maybe in like a few months it's gonna go to 2100, what you could do is you could, you could find a seller of an option to sell you an option for E at say like strike price of 2000. Um, when you are buying a call option, you're only buying this contract. You're not actually buying the asset, you're buying the right to buy the asset at that price. So let's say I'm, I'm just gonna pull out some random numbers. So let's say for$20, you can buy an e call option, um, that at strike price 2000, if e were to go to 2100 like in a month, what you could do is you could buy, eat at the$2,000 strike price when the contract's expiring, and, and then sell it on the open market for$2,100. And for this privilege, you would pay$20 right now, like just some random numbers to make, to help you make sense of this. The idea is you pay a small premium upfront today in return for the right, but not the obligation to buy the asset. At that strike price in the future. Um, but usually what happens are is you don't actually go physically like buy these assets in in many markets. Not always. There's like cash in mo in a lot of markets. There's cash settlement and arrow is cash settle in, in. And I guess one, uh, one question for you d Raj, is uh, why did you guys end up choosing Avalanche? Yes. Um, you know, when this was, uh, over a year ago, a big reason why we chose Avalanche was the consensus mechanism. And it's, you know, like, uh, like front running resistance. And also a big portion of our team went to Cornell and we got to see the early white paper for Avalanche. And, uh, I was in goon sitters, like one and only, uh, blockchain and cryptocurrencies class. And we were really impressed with the, with the design. And something else that's very relevant to us is down the line, we may want to have these heavy scientific computations on chain. And for that we may need a custom virtual machine running on a custom subnet with its own custom validator set that would help Arrow have its options pricing engine on chain, which, you know, unfortunately is currently off chain. But fortunately it allows us to do. Uh, a lot more than we could if it was just like an EVM based, you know, di Raj. I actually know somebody who could help you out with that. He's a pretty cool dude. Um, I believe his name is Brey. Oh yeah. Would love that too. Um, but, uh, Mike, Mike is actually a, a fan of you folks. Uh, Mike kink off of Google Pool, and he has a, a question for you folks for sure. If I could actually quickly finish up like our vault product. It won't take Oh, yeah, yeah. So if you, so today like this, uh, the way it currently works, and this can change in the next few weeks, is users deposit funds for the first few days of this epoch, I think it's, uh, Like Friday, Saturday or like Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Um, like Monday and then like the buying period starts like sometime around Tuesday. But if you wanted to deposit funds into our current credit spread, Walt, it would be, if you believe that E will not go up to 27, uh, sorry. Eat will not go up to$2,300. If you think EAT Will stay below$2,300 by April 28th, you can earn yield on your E. And what's unique about Arrow compared to like Ribbon and all these other like walk protocols is that we are using credit spreads, which allows us to designate like a band, like a width of. Of these strikes to sell multiple, like credit spreads per eth that you deposit. So in some sense, these are like leveraged walls. So if you truly believe that equal stable or 2300, you could make like maybe six times the amount of yield that you could on like ribbon or some other wall product. So that's what's very unique about our first uh, product. But if it also means that, uh, there's that much more risk, if it does go about 2300, like you would lose more funds, like more of your funds would be liquidated to fund the payoffs of the option buyers on the trading tab. So right now, any of you could go and if you think that E will go, By a lot. You could buy a call debit spread for super cheap and get like, leveraged upside exposure to eat. Uh, yeah. So that's our first product. But yeah, happy to take any questions. Yeah, I was just quickly gonna ask, um, kind of like historically when these kinds of financial primitives like options come online in a system, like what, what tends to happen? My, my intuition says that this is mostly used by pretty sophisticated traders for hedging and stuff like that, but could you maybe speak to kind of like, why, why is it necessary to have a Thriving Options market in the first place? Yeah, great, great question. I, in Trai, options markets are definitely dominated by institutions. Looking to hedge institutions looking to speculate like pension plans, looking to earn yield on some of their assets. Um, so and or pension pension plans. Pension funds, looking to hedge some of their holdings when it comes time to like, have these regular like payout. And, um, yeah, so there's options are so wide, like of they have like, their use cases are so wide in variety that like you could use them for like so many different cases. And in traditional, in traditional markets, Robinhood actually kickstarted an entire revolution for retail options trading. Everybody got wrecked. You know, yes. If you've looked at Wall Street Vets, there's a lot of people who lose a lot of money, but there's also a lot of people who've made a ton of money and some, usually, by the way, the disclaimer is Robinhood makes most of its money with, with a technique called Poff, which is, do you wanna, do you want me to do the, the deep dive is, the reason they can provide such cheap trades is cuz they're front running your orders. So Citadel has Citadel who invested in Robinhood and who owns them and their daddy when Robinhood needed to get bailed out for all the GameStop nonsense, the Citadel gets all your orders and trades against you. Boop, there you go. That's right. And yeah, they, yeah, they like for like with PFA revenue like Q3 of 2021, uh, Sorry, 2022, like half of Robin Hood's revenue was like completely just options tearing killer face off. Yeah. Yeah. Like with, you know, you know, everyone complains that Robinhood, you get like bad, you get bad fills for your orders with options. It's like another level. Um, you and in, in other like bigger exchanges, uh, sorry, bigger brokerages. You, there's a lot of these discounts you get called price improvements and Robinhood rarely gets you any price improvements. And, um, the, and it's like a very shady kind of business cuz you're supposed to have, uh, you're supposed to totally legal, but totally legal. You're supposed to meet, uh, what is that called? The. Best bid N B B O, the national best bid or ask like there's some rules to try to ensure that everyone across different brokerages get the best prices for their options or their stock trades. Um, but these market makers and like these brokerages play a lot of games to, uh, legally get away with as much, uh, front running as they can. I guess a quick follow up too, cuz obviously the web three version of options is a bit different than Robinhood that kind of has that, uh, has that layer of abstraction through their regulators and everything like that, where. Do that front running. I assume protocols like yours are a bit more transparent, and I wonder if you could maybe draw any comparison or any kind of conclusions about whether or not this will be, uh, more dominated by institutional players, or you expect to have a lot of, like defi d gens as your users, um, or if you've put any, put any thought into that kind of, uh, divide and difference between the traditional options markets versus web three. Absolutely. Uh, so most option volume on crypto right now is on the centralized exchange called dbi. And, uh, dbis are limited. Yep. All their API keys got leaked. Oh, when was this? Google that? Yeah. All of dabs API keys got leaked. So you can do with that. What you will, you can take that to the bank. Oh, wait, when did this happen? I did not, no, like a couple months ago. All of their API keys just got totally effed. Oh my God. Yeah. So there you go. Ok. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, I wish it was as simple as that. There's a lot of reasons why dabby currently makes sense for all the institutions to trade on. It's actually like a big settlement venue. A lot of trading right now happens via this OTC portal called Paradigm, because, uh, they like it. It's in, in a lot of these institutions like to place large block orders for their options. On paradigm, like to the market maker, to a set of market makers or desks that they may know and then like, yep. Yeah. So if you, if you Google it, Crip lost 28 million in a hack in November. Yep, yep. I see that. Uh, but, and, and these institutions, which make up the bulk of the crypto options volume right now, just prefer data bit because it, you know, gives them this APIs that they're used to, like the margining systems that they're used to. And, um, you know, everything's like faster I, I guess for now. Um, so, and there isn't that much retail, like options demand right now. It's, you know, for one, it's like fairly complicated. Um, to the, but you, if you guys automated it with, with like, for normal, normal people with like, like a, like a complicated strategy, like an iron condor. If you could automate that, you'd get a ton of users. And that's our goal. That's our goal. Like, yeah. To have these strategies be automated. We've built like a whole recommendation engine and, uh, uh, it, it like abstracts away a lot of the details of like your option, like off the strike prices of your, uh, like profit and loss. And we try to make it as simple as possible to pick the option that will maximize your payoff, like given a forecast. That was pretty awesome. Also, if you guys white label and permission it's, and you have a permissioned version, I can, I can make a ton of sales for you. There are, there are, there are plenty of institutional clients that don't want to build this themselves. If, if, if there's a white label version of Arrow that has a permissioned counterparty so that they know who they're trading with and it's a dark pool or whatever, dude, you guys will make, we can, we take, would love that introduction. What kind of would that be on like a subnet you're thinking? Well, no, I'm, I'm thinking about putting it on Bitcoin and Yes, it's a subject, yeah, the Avax ecosystem, uh, Twitter space where business happens. I love it. Yeah, dude, that's the kinda crazy part about ecosystem space. Like to the audience out there, we have conducted a lot of business on this space in front of everybody. It's, it's so dope. Um, specifically with, uh, arrow, also wanted to ask you folks, cause I know we can dive so, so deep into the, into, into you, into your protocol. Do you, are you folks available like around same time next week? Can we just do a whole space on you folks? Uh, I believe so, yes. Yep. Perfect. I'll, I'll reach out after this is over and send you a cow in invite and all that good stuff and yeah, we'll just, we'll do a whole space on you folks cause Yeah, you guys, Bitcoin, Miami or something. I'm actually a Bitcoin maxey. I just, I just act like I'm at avac Maxey, so, yeah. Uh, take that. By the way, uh, if any of you guys are going to the, who live in New York or who are going to the Cornell Blockchain conference, um, d Raj from, from Arrow Markets will be speaking there. Um, and it's a, it's, it's an awesome conference. There's, there'll be a lot of interesting people there. Um, and it's ob obviously, uh, avalanche heavy because, uh, a avalanche kind of came out of, of Cornell, so it'll be in New York City on Friday. If you need any more information, let me know. D Raj. D Raj as well. Um, hopefully could see you guys, so some of you guys there. Yep. We're very excited. Um, and awe, who's on the call right now is actually doing a ton of great work, organizing this great conference for Friday. So excited. Yep. That's love, love, love to love to see folks. Going back to the roots of avac, back to where everything is started. Um, really appreciate Arrow also for sliding on impromptu as well. I know I'm sounding like I'm in the space, but I'm not in the space. I swear to y'all. Uh, uh cause I do wanna talk to, uh, Nathan at Landslide about, uh, what you folks have just, uh, announced. You know, cuz you guys got a big, big, big announcement today. So Yeah. Floor is yours, friend. Yeah, sure. We, we open. So part of the open source, uh, ethos is, is, is building an open, so we open source landslide. Core landslide is like tender min, like basically the tender man client without the tender mint consensus. So if you, if you imagine like, uh, you know, cosmos as, as an Oreo, it's one of the, it's basically like the cream, right? There's the, there's a VM. And there's, uh, the app, but in between all these things is this, uh, tender minute cream. Um, so yeah, what, what that means for us is people can see what we're doing in the open. Um, we're gonna have some, some docs up real soon, um, most likely G P T generated. Um, and then, um, we're, we're, we're gonna open source, uh, open our incentivized testnet, so when people start reporting bugs, that that will be part of it. Uh, we're gonna, and then sort of next steps are, uh, collaborating with, uh, Dora Hacks, the, the largest hackathon platform out ecosystem out there, um, to build and, um, port over, uh, with the, the, um, support of the cosmos, uh, app chains, as much of the app chains as we can so that, that will start taking place in test. Um, yeah. And I, b c like client comes out, uh, where our, our devs are gonna be done with the work in about three and a half months. Um, so that means we'll be in Tesla for a while. So happy to answer questions about it and, and encourage people to apply. Alright. For anyone out there in the audience, feel free to go ahead and request to speak if you got a question for Nathan. Um, but I for sure have a question. What is a light client? Yeah. Um, a light client is a representation of a source chain, so it's, it's, you could, I imagine instead of running like a full node, like, and like having a giant archive of everything that's happened, it's just a certain threshold of live transactions and like a short history of them. Right. So it's the history book of transactions of a validator, right? Right. So, so the light, the avalanche light client means that other i b c channels will be able to verify state on avalanche. The only way to do that right now is basically through, through a p chain in the subnet. Oh, wow. My mind finally connected what that means. Yep. That was so, and, and here's, and here's a, a, you know, a piece of, just a further piece of nerd thing for you. So your question might be a, after that, well, Nathan, what happens if an avalanche validator signs two different blocks at the same height? So, which is called a double sign in cosmos terminology, which is treated as an attack. Okay, so current, according to Steven at AVO Labs, currently nothing happens, right? So in avalanche, the only, the only block signing happens by the block proposer not during the validation process for what it's worth. So don't validators still have to sign a vote for that block, like a yes no on whether it's a valid block or not? The answer is no, because validators do not sign a vote for a block during the consensus process. So what this means in a normal speak is that we're, we're creating a secure method for blocks proposed in Cosmos to talk to blocks proposed in Avalanche and, and, and, and it's these light clients on the target and the source chain, basically like you know where you're going and where you are. That talked to one another about, about state changes at the time that you're executing them. Nathan, I wanna say, you know, thank you so much for saying that last portion where you summed everything up, because I had absolutely no idea what was happening up until that very point right there. So I really, really appreciate you, man. I want you to know that. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. So I'll, I'll wrap it to you next time. Nathan is always trying to rap to me, y'all. I'll give you, dude, I'll like Biggie. I'll give you the 10 consensus commanders. It's so, I was just listening to that song literally yesterday. So, Yeah, it's my song. Alright. Anyway. Alright, y'all we're coming up at the top of the hour here. I wanna definitely give Alex Lonely, a savvy defi some space to talk about their announcement as well. Um, Alex Lonely, you got the floor, my friend. Well, I will not rap to you. Um, and if I didn't be in Spanish, however. Yeah. So, SA Savvy, we just announced that, uh, we are actually, uh, launching, um, launching an Arbitron in like, like soon here. And, and I know that in, sorry. Sorry. What? What a what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're launching. Pretty sure your audio got rubbed. No, that was, that was, it must have been like Avalanche calling and saying, yo, what? Yeah, yeah, we can hear you now. Oh, okay. Um, so yeah, so, so we are launching on, on, on Arbitron, which is a strange thing to announce in the middle of the, of the Avax ecosystem space. But actually it's, it's an important thing cuz um, we had a, we, we had savvy, like, believe in kind of like an omni chain future. And, and especially because all the tools that people like Landslide and Gogo Pool are creating makes it easier to eventually have that sort of omni chain future. Um, and especially because at the end of the day, we don't, we think that when the users come on, um, when a larger, when the next wave comes on, they'll be more chain agnostic and they'll, they'll just be trying to do the things that they normally wanna do, um, off chain, but just doing them on chain. So for us, we are, we're, we're launching first on ar. And even though we already have our AVA test net out, um, we will, we will be going first to, to Arbitron because that's just where a lot of the defi liquidity is. And then, um, part of, part of our system will be set up on, on Avalanche, like our registry will, will be kept there, uh, and then, and then move to Avalanche pretty quickly after moved over. Trader Joe is moving over. Yeah. And, and the, and the real, real talk, you gotta do what you gotta do. Yeah. And, and the, and the truth of the matter is like, I think it makes almost, it, it makes avalanche even more important. Like, like our ecosystem, or in our belief is cuz we, we are still very bullish on, on Avalanche and I'm super bullish on the, like, where Avalanche is, is going in the long term. Um, and especially with things like landslide being built, Gogo Pool being built, um, continuing to get a lot of these, uh, bigger, bigger, um, kind of businesses on, on Avalanche. So for us it's like we're super bullish on where it is, but we have to start in a place that, that like where, where our users are and that's arbitrary now and avalanche in the future. So we're, we're, we're still, we still love and support the Avalanche community and we're still plan to be on all these spaces. So we're super excited. Yo, your, your id, your, your gentleman idm, that guy, we did a, an interview with him a couple days ago and he is like the resource on. Um, liquidity bootstrapping. So if anyone, you guys should check that, that interview out and hire him. Actually, we might hire him. He's great. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I listen to that and I, and I listen to, um, I've been, I've been listening to IDM talk about LVP for a long time, and that dude is, is so smart. We love talking to him. He, and he is, he's a, he's a i I highly, I highly recommend you guys, you, you guys, go and check out his talk, and more importantly, just there's so much good content on the subnet, uh, the subnet conference that you guys did. So, so great job with that. And thank you. Same. Thank you so much for, for hosting idm. Yeah, of course. I like muted myself. I'm sorry. Over muted. Anyway, um, yo, um, so excited for S Man, like I want you to know it's nothing but love over here from, from Avalanche. We'll be patiently awaiting your return back to us, my friend, hopefully through Global Pool. But we're past the hour mark here, my friends. Go ahead. We're gonna go ahead and start getting everything closed down. Um, we're gonna go ahead and open things up. Actually, Louis, I just saw your speaker. Louis, you got anything you wanna talk to the people about my friend? Sorry. No, no worries. Hear me? Yeah, yeah, we can hear you. Oh, I, I just joined, uh, between my desktop and my mobile, and I, when I joined my mobile to hear better, it just gave me the option to be speaker. So I was like, okay, I'll just, I just went through that with that option. I, I didn't have any particular questions. I actually had one, but I think, uh, someone already asked that question, so that was, I was fine with that. Okay. Luis Spa Lee Yolo into being a speaker today. Yeah, I just, I just lied in myself here cause I'm being seen. Well, appreciate you for sliding on as a speaker, Luis. It's always a pleasure having you for anyone out there. Uh, Luis does a lot of, a lot of amazing, uh, research and, and writing for Gogo Pool. Um, he's, he's an excellent team member. Uh, for anyone who doesn't know as well. Mike is on Google Pool's team as well, just in case you couldn't tell by the go-go and, uh, yeah man. Anyway, we're gonna go ahead and, uh, get this thing, get this thing, go ahead and end it. I'm like starving right now and need to go ahead and eat some yogurt. Uh, before I hit the lake. My friends, it is 70 some degrees and sunny in Chicago and we really don't get weather like this very often, so you gotta make the most of it when it's here. Um, really appreciate everybody for sliding on today. We talked about Gogo Pool, we talked about what's going on with landslide. We talked about Savvy Defi, we talked to Arrow. Um, don't forget, we do this weekly every Wednesday at 3:00 PM e s t. I'm gonna be working with Arrow to make sure that we can go ahead and lock them in for next week so you guys can hopefully be, hopefully be expecting to talk to them a little bit more about what's going on with their protocol. Um, but until then, I think you guys know what I'm about to say next. You don't gotta go home. But you gotta get a phone outta here, y'all. How long it takes for people to start leaving.