A Brand New AVAX Validator Business Model is Here and Has Changed Everything

GoGoPool talked to B Tanyeri an Avalanche validator about his experience using a brand new business model for node operators.

Social Links:
GoGoPool Twitter: https://twitter.com/GoGoPool_
Savvy DeFi Twitter: https://twitter.com/SavvyDeFi
Landslide Twitter: https://twitter.com/CosmosAVAX

Transcript

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Welcome to the Ava Eco System Space. Um, today I am joined by a lovely panel of people. Here. We got Steven Gates here, founder of Gogo Pool. Say, what's up my friend? Howdy, howdy. Howdy, howdy. And I'm also joined by, and now this, now this person right here, he wears quite a few hats, so I might have to, I'm gonna sip a little T before I go. Go into what he does. B 10 Yeari of Daybreak Digital. He is the founder slash He is an AVA validator slash He is a Gogo pool mini pool operator. How you doing today? B? Hey baby. What's going on man? How you doing? B, you did not match the energy given to you. I'm sorry, dude. I'm not. He's got enough energy for you. I'm just kidding. Now to everyone up here, this is very, very unfortunate. This happens to anyone who is, uh, who is a fan of the AVAs ecosystem space. Twitter space has rugged the audio on my end for B, but the good thing is, is that Steven can still hear you B So I'm gonna be listening in on the desktop and I'm gonna be, I'm gonna have like a five second delay. So whenever you finish up talking, be if you can just mute yourself so that way. Uh, I know on my end. Um, perfect. Now just to kind of go over the agenda for today. What's up Matt? How you feeling today? Rander, Wynn, nice to see you. Uh, just going over the agenda. So first up, we're gonna start off with Steven here. He is gonna do an intro to G G P after that. We'll head on over to Bees World. He is gonna talk about his thoughts on validating with G G P. Also gonna talk about thoughts on the future of G G P. Where can this go? We are literally a brand new business model for validators. This is gonna be completely u unique and I'm so excited to talk about it today. And we of course are gonna talk about what opportunity opportunities for validators and delegators that there are. Uh, so first up, Steven. I gotta pick on you my friend. Can you just give us a quick overview of what we at G G P are building? Yeah, so hi everybody. My name is Steven. Um, helped start the Google Pool project and then also working on a couple other things all related towards helping Subnets launch faster. Our mission is to help. Builders bring blockchain technology to the world and I chose a vehicle for that is by making Summit. That's easy. Not cuz we're like Avalanche Max's, but we're just decentralization Maxs. And we think that Summit as a vehicle for that is pretty much how Web two developers expect it to work. Like it just makes a ton of sense. Um, Google Pool itself is a sticking protocol built for, um, avalanche validators to lower their sticking requirement down to 1000. Ava. By staking the GDP token as well as liquid staking. Um, and again, this is kind of customized to become maximally useful for subnets and for subnet projects to be able to prototype their subnet quickly, prove out the value of the technology, and then actually launch and increase the economic security of their subnet by engaging, um, value net operators to join the subnet and pull resources together for that. Yeah, for anyone out there, super, super long-term vision over here with Gogo Pool. I mean very, very excited to continue building on Avalanche and continue to build out the, uh, the subnet landscape. We for sure think that this is going to be the absolute new frontier, and it is going to be the thing that helps solve web three scaling issues. Um, Steven, can you kind of go into, um, uh, mini pool setup and then what kind of benefits are there for people who operate Mini pools Actually define mini pool too as well. Yeah, so a mini pool is a new valor node that is made up of 1000 AVAs by the node operator. Um, they stake at least 100 AVAs worth of G G P tokens and they get mashed with 1000 AVAs from liquid stakers. So what we call a mini pool is just the val node that has, that the AVA stake for that valor node is pulled together and kind of bound together by using G G P token as the common incentive layer between the two parties. Um, what was the second part of the question? Briefly? It was what are mini pools and then kind of go into some of the benefits of starting. Yeah, so a couple benefits to start on the mini pool. One is that you're staking for, on the node operator side, you're staking avax, and now you're earning avax in terms of the, uh, avax or the staking yield based off of your principle, a 15% commission off of the yield being generated by the liquid staking funds that are matched to you. And so now you're earning Aax, but you're also earning G G P tokens as well from the val node. So depending on what your collateralization ratio is, between 10% and 150%, uh, you'll earn G G P rewards as well, which come out every month on a monthly cycle. Um, and the basic token on a game of the G G P token is that. As we increase more mini pools, the value token goes up because there's more buying pressure on the um, G G P token and then more mini pools actually get launched. More value nodes are we decentralize and make the, uh, set of value nodes more robust for the avalanche network, while also trivializing the cost for new subnet projects that want to launch and need access to other people's hardware because they're looking to boost the economic security of the subnet as well as. Get different people, a decentralized setup, node operators to join the subnet. What's the current process like? Say I wanted to spin up a subnet and I wanted, and I needed validators. What's that current process look like? So it takes about three, maybe four clicks. First you need to have a node ID that's already boot stopped to the network. You go to app like Google pull.com, you go to the node operator tab, you paste in your node id. You stake the G G P token and then you stake 1000 avac. Then it us, depending on how much liquidity is in the deposit pool, it'll take between like a minute to maybe up to a day to match that mini pool with the liquid staking funds. And then that mini pool gets launched and then you start earning yield. Um, we cycle the mini pools on 15 days. So let's say you sign up for three months. Uh, every 15 days we sign you up for 15 day validation periods. That way, um, yield can get paid out to liquid stickers. And then again, every month the G G P token reward cycle goes. And actually, um, here I would pass it off to be like, B how would you describe what a mini pool is and what was your experience of setting one up? Yeah, I mean, you described it perfectly. It's a valve that's run by someone who has a thousand abex on their own, and they're borrowing a thousand abex from the Gogo pool platform by staking a hundred abex worth of G G P. I think that that description was perfect. Um, You know, like, to be honest, it was super easy. Like I think you guys launched, I mean, has it even been a month since you launched? And I, you know, I was one of the earlier mini pools. You know, usually when you try a protocol like this, at first you expect to be some hiccups and some bumps in the road. It worked for me the first time I had a mini pool set up in less than five minutes. It was super easy, especially if you're used to already running the the validator hardware. You know, you just provide the note ID for your validator. You stake a thousand AVAs, you deposit a hundred AVAs worth of G G P, and in less than five minutes, my validator was up and running and I could see it on the dashboard. It was, it was really, it was really super easy. Yeah, it was very good. I'll pass the mic back to Brey. Brey. Can you hear him? Okay. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. A little bit delayed. Got a little five second delay here. Um, yeah. Yeah. Appreciate you for kind of sounding your experience. B um, It, it's interesting that you kind of spotlighted that fact that, you know, in a lot of protocols when they kind of first initially released, you kind of expect some bugs and everything, but I, I'm very happy to hear that you had a very easy time kind of setting up your mini pool. Um, I, I gotta ask you why specifically did you, what kind of interested you in Gogo pool specifically and why'd you decide to be like one of the early mini pool um, uh, validators? Yeah, great question. So, um, So, I mean, when you guys launched in, in, you know, what type was like summer or fall of last year? Um, to me, Gogo Pool, the idea just immediately made sense. Um, Okay, so fir like, first I'm very excited about the platform. I think it has so much potential, you know, meeting you guys, Bree, you and Steven at, at, uh, Barcelona was incredible and some of the other people on your team was just awesome. So first, like, just meeting the team, um, you know, you guys are super professional and you kind of, you're very plugged into what's happening in Avalanche and like the broader crypto community. So first just meeting the people behind the protocol just made me very bullish. That's, that's one thing. Um, the second thing is like the whole idea, like the way I look at Gogo pool is it's, You know, to oversimplify it a bit, to me it's like a liquid staking derivative, but on steroids, you know, if we look, and we can talk about this a little later, but the way I think about it is once subnets come online, uh, G G P and the whole platform is basically a liquid staking derivative that has some nice optionality properties embedded into it that can really perform well, you know, let's say in, in a year from now. So, you know, like last August or September when you guys launched, You know, that was, you know, that was a few months after the, the la the previous Barcelona conference. You know, we came home from that and basically there were tons of these phone calls and, and Google meets and telegram conversations happening behind the scenes because everyone was so excited to launch subnets. Um, to be honest, last year, like last summer, it was a bit too early, but everyone was really excited. So all the conversations were happening. You know, people were launching subnets, but they were permission subnets, um, not permissionless ones, but I mean, behind the scenes we were having all these conversations. I would talk to a team and then that team would put me in contact with another team that wants to launch a subnet, and then those people would want to talk to validators that I know. And it was just like this communication process that really didn't make any sense because. You know, you have maybe a hundred teams that are trying to launch subnets and you have, you know, a thousand plus validators and all. I mean, ideally you want all of them to talk to all. And you know, that type of communication is just very inefficient. It doesn't work. So when you guys launched the idea in August, September of last year, I was like, this, this idea just makes sense. Like, we need something like this today. You know? Um, in reality we didn't really need it. Back then, because subnets weren't really live in a permissionless sense yet. But it, but after this conference, you know, we're getting there. You know, elastic subnets are, I think, you know, live and Amazon, or sorry, um, avalanche warp messaging is, is live. So yeah, I think we're very close to having a bunch of permissionless subnets launch. And, you know, I'm talking to some of these teams today and it's basically having the same conversations over and over again. You know, these subnets, uh, team that wants to launch these blockchains, they, they are going into an area of expertise that they don't necessarily have themselves. You know, they're may like a gaming company and that's what they wanna focus on. Or they're an NFT company or a defi company, and that's really what they wanna focus on. And the subnet piece is gonna be the same work for everyone. And the whole process of finding the validator set is gonna be the same for everyone. So why not have one place where everyone can go to kind of accomplish that? So to me it just makes sense and, um, you know, I think Gogo Pool has a, as a good a shot as anybody to be the place where that gets accomplished. That's how I kind of got involved in the first place. And, and so when you guys decided to launch mini pools, um, I won't jump the gun here, but, um, you know, Forget about, forget about all that stuff that, you know, the whole, like the whole platform to me makes sense and I'm very bullish about it. But also the process of just running a mini pool itself is so easy. And to be honest, at this moment in time at least, it's very lucrative. So just that in and of itself, I think is a, a big draw to be able to run, to want to run a mini pool today. Yeah, I love that. That makes sense. So what I'm hearing from you is that the unmet need that even you discovered just from like last year's summit and kind of, you know, months after that summit, the unmet need was that these subnets needed to talk to a ton of different value notes to start hashing out, like, okay, who do I work with? How do I work with them? What do they need? How do I run iron for, like, all this type of stuff. Um, but. These subnet projects really want some sort of common interface. And then on the flip side of that marketplace is that the value net also n need an excuse basically to organize it around this idea of helping subnets and more being able to get into the more of the tactics of helping subnets launch. Um, Is that right? Did I summarize this unmet need be correctly? Or how would you summarize even better? Yeah, no, that, that's really good. I mean, look, you know people who are launching teams like, you know, a subnet, that's a team that's launching a subnet. They want reliable validators. Who they can. If there's any problem, they can go talk to them. You know, they want people to commit to running the chain, not, you know, like every two weeks. But you know, they'd rather have someone to validate for a long period of time. You know, ideally, they'd like someone who is gonna commit some amount of capital to the, you know, because if they're launching their own elastic subnet, I think you have to, I think it's the case that you have to buy some amount of their token. So, you know, they, they want, they basically want people, and rightfully so, they want validators who are kind of committed to their vision of making it work. And ideally what they want is someone who actually cares about their original vision in the first place. So, I'll give you an example. You know, some of the gaming subjects that I talked to, they, um, they were really looking for gaming guilds to run a subnet like to, to, to, uh, to run with some of their validator nodes. Why? Because it's just the more interests that are aligned between the people who are validating and the people who are actually building the product, the better you know, because they both want the long-term health of the product to be good. So, you know, from the validator side, it's, you know, you're, you're gonna be complicating your process because you're running a more complicated code underneath, like, running an avalanche validator is definitely easy, but if you start running a subnet VM on there, then you're worried like, is it gonna mess up my regular validating process or not? Like, what are the compute resources gonna be like? Should I split into multiple validators? How long am I gonna have to commit for, you know, how much capital do I have to invest to buy their token? If any, like, there's just all these questions that. All of a sudden people were just asking as they were trying to, you know, feel our way out into this new space. And the thing is, everyone, those conversations just happening, kept happening again and again. And actually, I think there's a third potential party here that. That isn't even there. That should be, which is like, who actually wants to hold the subnet token? Like I think there's a case where, you know, their validators don't mind validating these, uh, subnets, but they don't necessarily wanna hold a huge ton of the token. Now I'll, I'll give you an example. So I talked to, um, I won't name it, but I'll, I talked to one subnet. At the 2022 Barcelona conference that was looking for validators and they ended up, you know, choosing some folks to run their, their nodes. But if I had decided to be a part of their, you know, their, uh, node subset, I would've had to have invested, you know, more than a hundred thousand dollars to buy the token to stake. And you know, obviously in the last year, that's just every coin has done incredibly poorly. So. I don't think every validator wants to go own a bunch of subnet tokens necessarily, but they're the people who have the expertise to run the hardware. So, you know, there's like a third potential group, like who wants to actually house the risk of the token aside from the team that's building, you know? And so I kinda, Google pulls this nice place where you kind of put all three of these people together, you know, the people who wanna hold the token, the people who wanna validate, and the people who want to build, you know, and you can kind of bring'em all in this one place. Yeah, I love that there's, so then what we're seeing emerge is from your perspective, Google Pool has potentially to become this root primitive for subnets that allow people to build business models on top. What I'm hearing from you is like Summit Project obviously has their own business model, the validator for you as a hardware operator. Now you get to start playing around with what business model or be able to experiment with different business models of. Create my portfolio of subnets. How much of these tokens do I wanna hold? How much do I want just to have delegated to me, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But also like how am I actually managing the info side of my value notes? And then this third party is people who don't have the expertise to run the hardware. Maybe they don't even care about the whole hardware part, but they want the subnet token either for defi purposes or deja purposes, or cuz they're a evangelist or they're a missionary. Um, and then Google Pull can become this Comp Nexus or this primitive, very, very base layer primitive that helps people build out their own business models, or these three parties build out their own business models on top. Yeah, I, I think, I think all of that makes sense. I, I, I think I can, you know, in the not too distant future, I can easily see. You know, okay, someone wants to launch a subnet. So they go to Gogo pool and they say, okay, here's our new token. This is the project that we're building. Who wants to validate for us? And then validators can kind of like look at all the projects that are doing that. They're saying, you know, this is the type of validators that we're looking for. These are the hardware requirements. And then you kind of choose which one you wanna validate for. But then like, where are you gonna get the token to do that? Well, maybe on the third, you know, the third leg of this is anyone like you were saying, Any, anyone who doesn't want to get involved in the whole validating process, they just deposit their token and you know, maybe the validators borrow it using G G P S collateral and then they can kind of share in the rewards of validating the subnet. Maybe that gets, I mean, I don't know. You know, obviously you guys are, Better to speak on this, but maybe then the rewards get shared somewhat between whoever's validating and whoever's taking the subnet token. You know? I think it just kind of makes sense to me. Yeah, I agree. I think that's an open question as well, where for us, we want to build out the info that lets people play with that however they would like. Right. So I think the most idealized version is that hardware operators kind of define like, here's what I've got. Um, here's what the, here's the principle of the summit token that I have as well, and here's what the, you know, almost like a delegation fee, but here's what portion of the rewards I think I deserve, type of thing. And they'll let that be an open marketplace where people who just have a summit token, um, I wanna support a subnet, boost the economic security of a subnet. Now they can choose which piece of hardware do they vote on, or like, or, or where, where should I, you know, vote with their dollars, right? Like, where, who should I vote on, um, and delegate my son of tokens to. So that then we can create a compelling offer for the subnet project. Cause all the subnet project, at least from my experience, the subnets really care about, um, setting the infra and then forgetting about it. You know, like they're not gonna like, I think big reason of why polka dot the model just doesn't really scale the power chain side is like subnet nodes, or I guess app chain projects. Don't want to go on an election cycle every 30 days or every year. Right, like what you saying is that they want someone who's hopefully committed to the long term, they can validate for a 6, 12, 24, 36 months type of thing. Because realistically, for almost every action that we've talked to, um, it's gonna take one to three years. I mean, there's just another startup. It's gonna take another one to three years to figure out which one of these actions will really pop off. And as they look for product market fit on their application side. So then that filters down to the info side. Where they have this requirement of like, look, I don't wanna be convincing people every month to like validate or to like keep their, um, to like keep their TV all locked basically. Yeah. That yeah. Totally makes, I mean, from your side, right? As a CEO of a startup who's in some, like, you'd have to devote at least one, maybe two people who just manage the process of making sure there's enough out theres on the subnet. Like it's just Yeah. And that's, if that's two people who would really know what they're doing. Rather than, Hey, like, you know, you as a project, you can run a handful yourself. You make sure you kind of have like this baseline, you know, uh, security. But then by plugging into Gogo pool, Or, and maybe providing some incentives to anyone who wants to validate the subnet. You can kind of see you have this stable of people who are always constantly just rolling and validating. And I think what's what's actually really interesting is then you can also observe what other people who are successfully managing this process are actually doing. Right. You can see Oh, okay. Like, You know, hey, there's this other subnet, then they're, they're doing great. Like they have, you know, 50 people who are validating the subnet aside from their base and what are they doing to do that? Okay, so let's match that. Or maybe let's beat that a little bit. And all of a sudden you have like this competitive marketplace. It kind of shines a bit of sunlight onto this whole process. Yeah. It's right now happening behind the scenes, you know, um, but I think as, as permission is something that's come online, we'll kind of, we'll see it develop and maybe normalize. But it's gonna, it's gonna be a really, honestly, it's gonna be a really fascinating process of discovery, you know, and, and to be honest, just to be a part of that, just to see that happen is enough for me to want be involved in Gogo pool. Well, it's super fun and I think like the one sentence push on that, or like something that I keeps me up at night in a good way of just stage dreaming about it is like, how cool would it be if subnet projects could fork another subnets, infras setup? Along with their token omics and kind of like the reward setup, um, the incentivization scheme. And then just quickly deploy that, test it out, and then fine tune and tweak it. And then on the flip side as well, for valor nodes, like how cool would it be for, to have this ecosystem of nodes that can fork their fellow valor nodes business model in terms of here's how much hardware I have, like here's the infrastructure I wanna run with, here's how I manage it. Um, here's my bids on the different subnets. And then I think that would just create this, like, it just open sources, basically, um, what people are doing, which, like you said, right now it's a bunch of, you know, handshake deals. And frankly, it's a lot of manual brokering. Like I'm a part of so many group chats where I'm just trying to hook up soup projects with partners. And I know like Ava's doing the same exact thing. You know, everyone else who. Everyone who's in this space is doing this same exact thing. I mean, it's would be, I think such a huge win for the ecosystem and also something that other ecosystems frankly don't have at all. It's like not even a concept right now on Cosmos that I can like run, like for Chorus one to be able to look at someone else's val on on Cosmos, and then we would like Fark back, just experiment. The incentivization layer of all this stuff like that just simply doesn't happen right now, but if it did happen, Seems like that would greatly boost up the rate of iteration and the, which I think for crypto overall, the main problem is like what's, what are the solid business models for crypto and for blockchain? And it'll speed up the rate of kind of discovery of being able to settle on, Hey, these business models work. Yeah, I'm, I'm really excited to see the first couple subnets come online, um, and, and get some, I mean, you know, the first permissionless ones come online and, and have it flow through some sort of protocol like this. And, interesting. So the one that you think is really exciting is people basically copy pasting subnets and then providing it with the appropriate capital just to get it running. Just to see that proliferate really fast. You, you think that's gonna, you think that'll happen relatively soon? Cause it kind of makes sense because as soon as someone. Gets the subnet model correct for the first time. Everyone's gonna like, okay, that worked. Like, let's do that. Right. That's, that kind of makes sense. Yeah. There, so the concrete example is most games that I talk to, um, somewhere along the conversation they say, yeah, Steven, is there a way to find out what Dfk does? It was like, oh, what do you mean? It was like, yeah, like how are they incentivizing their val node? What would those agreements look like? Like what does the technomics look like? What's the walled experience look like? What's the bridge experience look like? Is there a way we can just get a checklist of everything Dfk does and then we can just start figuring out like, how quickly can we implement that checklist? Alex has a starting point, you know, like it's definitely ask for, but it's a really hairy problem. Yeah, cuz it's so many different ways to kinda approach that. Yeah, another reason why it would just make so much sense to have it all on a platform where everyone can observe. Um, but, um, I, I would be remiss if I don't mention, do, do you want me to walk through some of the numbers for like what's happening with mini pools right now? Do you think that that would be useful? Yeah, a absolutely. So can you set up the context or I guess maybe I can set the context and I'll pass over to you. So the, the current situation on Google Pool, again, Google Pool is a way for, to launch with just 1000 Ava by getting matched with a thousand through staking the G G P token. They are rewarded both in Ava in terms of commission, their principal yield, plus also in g p rewards for the, um, monthly cycles. And the way it's kind of designed is that people who get in early. Because like the, the, the amount of reward that's being paid out in g p tokens every month is fixed and increases a little bit every single month. Um, so the raw asset number is fixed, so that means with a very low amount of mini pools, they would get the most amount of tokens. Um, and then the game that gets played out over time is, alright, more people join, everyone gets less token like the raw number of tokens, but now the price of the tokens are higher cause of the buying pressure and people staking and, you know, demand for running a valor node basically. Um, so for this, like we're in the first one of the protocol, like b, what's the situation that you're seeing? Like what's the play by play that you're seeing right now? Since the protocol started 23 days ago, I believe, or 26, 23 31 days ago or something like that. Yeah. Is it 31 days already? Okay. Um, Okay, look, this, this is not financial advice. Please do your own research. You know, I generally, I just assume that every dollar I'm gonna put into crypto has a decent chance of going to zero. And then if it doesn't, I'm pleasantly surprised. So this is not financial advice, please, but do your own research. Nfa nfa. Yeah. Um, but look, right now the yields for running a Google pool mini, uh, mini pool are insane. They're, they're really insane. So I'm just gonna walk through some numbers real quick. So, Let's say you have a a thousand avac. Um, I know it's a lot. Our current price is about 14,$14,000. But let's say you have a thousand avac sitting around. Maybe you have it on earning, you know, about 3% or something where you have it liquid staking as g g Avac earning about 7%. Uh, what you can do instead is take that 1000 avac deposited into Gogo pool. You start a, um, avalanche validator, which you can. You know, look up how to do that with the avalanche docs. Or you can use something like all nodes, you know, all nodes. It takes about five minutes. So you, you deposit your thousand AVAs, you have, uh, a hardware node. You, you have a hardware, you have about node ready and you have a node id. And then you buy 100 AVAs worth of g p tokens, which right now is about 800 G P tokens. Okay? So keep that number in mind cuz it's important 800 G G P tokens. Let's say you deposit all three of those into Google Pool's website and you start running a validator at the end of every month, Google Pool is gonna give out a certain amount of tokens that spread prorata among all of the mini pools that are currently running, depending on how much G G P they have stake. So this month, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but the rewards date is May 28th, so I think it's happening on Sunday. On Sunday, the first batch of rewards is gonna go out and the amount of rewards that are going out to mini pool out, there's 52,500 G G P tokens, which at current prices is about$90,000. So you got$90,000 being spread pro rata among about 20 mini pools. So what this means is if you stake just the minimum amount of G G P tokens, so about 800. Right now, at the end of the month, you're gonna get roughly about 500 or so G G P tokens back. So that's about a 60% return, six 0% return for less than one month worth of staking G G P tokens. I mean, that's, that's crazy. You know, that's really, really high and you're getting that high yield, obviously, because it's crypto and prices can fluctuate a lot, but also because it's very early in the cycle of. Uh, you know, it's very early in the, in the life process of Gogo pool, but also because to be frank right now that you can't launch an infinite amount of mini pools, right? It's, um, bottlenecked by how much AVAs people have staked on the other side as as Gga Avax. So I think that there is space right now. If you wanted to launch mini pool, you can go do it and the more people that stake. Uh, the more people that run mini pools, uh, the less rewards there will be per mini pool. But as Steven is saying, like as people launch more mini pools, they have to buy more G g P tokens to do that. So there's like a little bit of this counterbalance that's happening. So as, uh, as more mini pools are launched, the G G P rewards are shared among, you know, more people. But to launch those mini pools, people are about having to buy more G G P. But you know, to, to take a step back for a second, like, the thing I really like about it is basically if you were to launch a mini pool right now and run it for a couple months, you could, frankly, you could sell enough of the G G B tokens that you get to earn back your initial capital and then all of a sudden you have this nice free option. You know, you deposit 1,008 acts, you're earning a yield on that Ava, that's not being diluted at all because you're not delegating it to anyone else. You're earning 15% commission. From the delegation beyond the other thousand aacs. So on your original a thousand abs, you're earning about 8% yield, actually a little bit higher, and you're earning a very high yield on the GDB tokens that you're staking. So to be frank, like this is what I'm doing and you know, I, I have. You know, I have mini pool and I basically have, I'm staking as much g g P token as I can, and my, my personal thought process isn't to make a quick buck. I'm not trying to do that. I really believe in the platform and I'm trying to amass as big a portion of G G P, uh, as I can. So I'm just gonna retake everything and continue launching as many mini pools as I can. But, you know, that's not what everyone has to do. You could launch a mini pool. We're in a really nice, solid yield, you know, get some money back and build your stake in G G P while also developing a track record as a, as a validator. Uh, because one thing we didn't talk about at all is, um, yeah. When we talk to these subnet teams, they, they, they typically want validators who have a track record of, of a high stability score. So those of you are listening, you may know this already, but you can go to Avalanche's, Avalanche's website and you can plug in a node ID and you can see how stable the node has been. So anyway, so you can start building this track record as a validator while earning a decent amount of yield and, you know, getting some of your initial investment back. So, to me, to me it looks, it looks like one of the best investments in avalanche right now. Wow, you really mean that? Yeah, for sure. A hundred percent. I mean, You know, it's, it's, it's a token with some real utility. It's, it's, uh, it allows you to do something that you previously couldn't do on Avalanche. You can launch a validator with, with less than 2008 bucks. You can't do that anywhere else, to my knowledge. And, uh, there's a long-term plan with a good team behind it. Yeah. I'm, I'm, yeah, a hundred percent. No, I appreciate that. That's awesome. Um, how does, does quickly double tapping into that. If there was another platform or protocol or project or whatever, like, I don't know, what do you think this compares to? Interesting. Um, I mean, look, you know, on, on the surface it does look a little bit like, uh, rocket pool or, you know, it's called Rockpool, right? The eat version of it. Um, totally, well, I guess specifically for Avalanche, like if, if I've got 2000 avac, let's say, or a thousand avac, um, Let's say, let's say have 1,300 avac, right? So then that'd be 1.1 to start the mini pole, and then another 200 to like cli eyes up on the g g P side a little bit. Um, like what other opportunities are there for me right now to put that a to work? I've gotta be honest, I, I don't think there's a better spot to put it at this moment. You know, like if, if I had 13 AVAs to, to invest right now, I would, I would launch a mini pool with a thousand of it and I would invest the 300 AVAs in a G G P and stake it, you know, at least at current prices, you never know what can happen. Yeah. Um, but I think if, if you do that like very quickly, You can earn back enough G g P to, you know, get back your initial investment and then just keep the mini pool running, keep earning yields, building a track record, becoming a part of the community, paying attention as subnets come online. And you know, I think this type of, um, being an early adopter, um, that you're getting right now with G G P is just gonna continue with the subnets that launched right when Subnets launched. They really wanna have a strong showing at the beginning. They wanna have a lot of outbids, they wanna have a lot of, you know, um, They, they want to incentivize more people to be involved in the network and not just in the short term, but the long term. So this, this type of really juicy yields at the beginning, I think are gonna be available to people who are already familiar with the process and comfortable with the protocol, you know? Um, yeah. Now what about like, I don't know what it's gonna look, sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, go, go for it. No, no, no. I was just gonna say, when, when Subnets launch, it's gonna be the same thing, you know? It's like on, on Google pool, it's gonna be like, The first time it's gonna be a little bit hairy. We're not gonna know exactly how it's gonna shake out, but you know, if you're careful and you, you adopt it early, I think the, the risk, the re the reward can kind of match the risk is Yeah. Is kinda how I feel about it. Yeah. So now what, uh, on the flip side of this, that's, if I had like 1300, 1400 vac, now, what if I'm already running a valid internet, let's say between 2000 and, I don't know, 20,000 or something like that. So it's not like, you know, not one of the. You know, like million dollar avac nodes that we see in like the top 10 chart. But you know, if I've already got like 10,000 AVAs and then it sticks with a node, like how do you, cause like you already run a valor node, so how did you reason through, I'm already running a node, why should I go to a new protocol that's only a 1000 AVA node? It's now there's another hardware cost plus like smart contact risk, et cetera. Like how did you reason through that? Yeah, so the, yeah, great question. The, honestly, the biggest question is really about smart contract risk. I mean, and you know, you, you guys, I, I met a lot of you guys on the team, you know, very solid, very professional, but we always know there's some smart contract risk. So, um, you know, I, I, I, I think imagine there was no smart contract risk and you could run, launch as many pools as you want. Again, at current prices. It would make sense. If you had 10,000 ab acts running one validator node, it would completely make sense to instead run 10 mini pools or, you know, nine mini pools plus a bunch of G G P sprinkled among that, like financially, at least in the short term, like the carry is very high on that. Like I, I would 100% do that if I wasn't worried about smart contract risk. So I think right now, like it. It, it makes a lot of sense to have, you know, just one. You know, I think, I think for people who are early adopters of what's happening in Avalanche, it makes a lot of sense to just run one mini pool with a minimum amount of A G G P or a little bit more just to see how it feels, you know, and just to see like, okay, do the yields actually get returned? You know, like how, how responsive is the team to issues, you know, how do they handle. You know, the claiming and selling and all that. Like, you know what? I think at first it, you probably don't want to go all in. Um, but I think it definitely makes a lot of sense to, to just be involved at the beginning. Yeah. And how would you think about, like, even for you setting up or reasoning through like, okay, I'm ready a note. So now just run one mini poll just to get started and just see how it feels and, you know, play with it a little bit. Experiment. Um, what was the biggest friction point or slowest part? Of that process for you? Biggest friction point? Um, I mean, honestly the website was just very easy to use. It was, you mean, I just remember I, I went to the page that said, you know, To, I, I forget exactly, run a note or something. It said, it asked me for my note, ID asked me to deposit the avac and the G G P I selected one month, you know, for my first trial, I think when you launch, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but right now you can choose anywhere between two weeks and, you know, 12 months. Um, I just chose one month and within five minutes they'll node was launched. I think maybe one thing people should be careful of is, um, and Steven, please correct me if I'm wrong here, but if you, when you're. Running the, when you're trying to run the node through the website, if you select six months when you're launching the node, uh, I think that AVAs is locked up for six months. So I did get some questions from a couple friends who launched mini pools. Like, if I select six months here, is there any way I can get the AVAs back early? Um, I said, I told'em, I don't think so. So they also ran just one month nodes. Um, yeah, that was the only thing, but no, the, the interface was really easy, you know, it was very straightforward. Yeah. Got it. And that actually, so yeah, you're right. Select, it's, select any amount of time if that's the validation period that you're locked in for. We do cycle under the hood every two weeks just to compound the yield, et cetera. Um, but on the veteran side, like whatever your validation period you sign up for, if that's what you're locked in for. And that to me actually feels the same. Like, it feels like if you're experienced with the protocol, you probably should go for one month. Like, I guess closer to two and three you go. The more nervous I get, like just, I'm just trying to like, like for my value to node, right? Like that's where I would start getting more nervous. Cause I feel like that goes to the same, like trust in the protocol, trust in the team building the trust in like the smart contract risk basically. Um, you know, going all in at 12 months at this point. You know, I, I guess some people might do it, but, um, yeah. At least that's the way I think about it. Do you think that's an accurate mental model? Yeah, I mean the look, the only thing I would mention is that there's not that much benefit, at least in my eyes, as an outsider, to locking up any capital for something longer than a month or two months. Like if there was a reason, like if there was some benefit, okay, if you lock, if you lock it for six months or nine months or 12 months, you get some additional benefit aside. Aside from just like the regular term structure of vacs. Um, then I think I might be worth it, but to be, it's not needed, you know? Right now it's, you know, it's fine. Like, Right now, I think what's gonna happen is people are gonna observe the yields that you actually realize at the end of the month. And you know, and I'm sure you guys will do a great marketing push for, you know, people who earned a decent chunk of yield and then there's gonna be a demand for mini pools. And to be frank, I think the bottleneck right now is the more, um, people who are staking AVAs for g g AVAs, you know, I think that's the first bottleneck, um, which I'm sure you guys have some, some plans for. I'm sure, you know. Yeah, for sure. Cool. Well, I love it. B is there anything. Going towards moving towards dropping up right now, but is there anything you think we should have dove into on in terms of the concrete details that we haven't so far? Uh, I'm not gonna ask you to, to spill on the alpha, but the thing that I'm really looking forward to is the first subnet that launches. So like, uh, I, Steven, I don't know if I mentioned it to you or tore in a side chat, but like for example, on all nodes, you can go right now and you can under on. I think there's some subnet that's live on all nodes, like the, I think it's melds. I haven't tried it yet, the meld subnet, but, but I can easily see a future where, you know, you wanna launch a node, you just go to all nodes or some other service, or you do it yourself and you pick like one subnet and then you take, you borrow the steak tokens just like we borrowed, you know, we borrowed the subnet tokens just like you borrow the avac and you launch your validator. And you get, you know, a decent amount of additional yield and I'm, I'm just waiting for that first example. I'm very curious to hear what the first is gonna be, but I'm not gonna push you to reveal it. Yeah, I definitely can't, I don't think. Yeah, I definitely can't reveal anything right now. Um, question for you, what would you be most interested in gaming? Subnet, defi, subnet, institutional subnet. Like, what would, what do you think would be most interesting to you? Yeah. De defi, you know, for me it's defi, you know, I'm a, you know, I'm a tradify guy at heart. And, um, I think, I feel like that's where my expertise lies. But any of them I would love to be a part of. Like, if any of them will launch tomorrow, I would, I would certainly look at it and try to take part for sure. It could be nft subnet, I don't care, you know, anything. Yeah, good feedback. So it sounds like for the first one, maybe the first two, it's more about again, experimenting with it, testing off the tech, seeing how it feels, like what's this process actually look like while also being a part of that moment. Um, and then after that, yeah, we'll just keep lining up banger sub notes for people to join. I think that's our plan at least. Sounds good. I'm excited. Sorry I didn't match previous energy there at the beginning, but I am excited. No, it's all good. Brey back over to you. A b, it's, it's a hard energy to match, man. I, I'm, I'm not gonna lie to you, I, I, I come in a thousand every time. So, um, but really, really, really love this kind of discourse between you and Steven about, I mean, like, what's going on right now with G G P and, and many pools and what's going to be, you know, potentials for the future. Uh, there's, there's. It's, it's so interesting that we're in this like brand new, that's why I had to call this Ava ecosystem space new validator business model, right? Because, um, You know, validators originally, their utility is just validated and they get paid out rewards in what the token of whatever they're validating. But I think it's very, I think it's very, I mean, Google Pool presents a very interesting business model to where there's a triple incentive reward structure and the possibility of validating an infinite amount of subnets, uh, coming up in the future. So, uh, definitely, definitely excited to kind of see that, uh, future coming into fruition and excited for talks like. Continue talks like this to where we can kind of talk about that future and how we can get there. Um, Steven, I wanna say I appreciate you so much for sliding through today. Um, be same to you my friend. Um, you gave a, a bevy of amazing information and firsthand knowledge of using a mini pool, and we really, really appreciate you as an early adopter, but also just as a person. Man, it was great to meet you at Summit as well. Uh, to, to the audience out there, if you kind of came in a little bit late, don't worry, everything's being recorded as soon as. You in the space, you can listen to the recording. We're also gonna be putting this on Spotify and all the other major podcasting platforms as well. So you can check it out there at your leisure. Um, but other than that, man, the, the space is over. My friends. I'm gonna sign off with my usual sign off, even though this is a special, I'm gonna say this. We do AVAs ecosystem Spaces Weekly. Everybody Wednesdays at 3:00 PM e s t. So make sure you guys check us out, uh, for anyone out there. Oh, Mount Do you Chest it came in just too late. I already gave my spiel. Mount Doji, man, you came in just too late. Oh, he's gone now. But, uh, to everyone out there, I'm gonna do my usual sign off. You don't have to go home, but you gotta get up on outta here, y'all. Peace. Everyone was great chatting.