Here's How Balancer Launching Has Effected Avalanche LSDeFi

GoGoPool, Landslide + Savvy Defi talked to Balancer about how their launch has effected the Avalanche LSDeFi space for the better

Social Links:
GoGoPool Twitter: https://twitter.com/GoGoPool_
Savvy DeFi Twitter: https://twitter.com/SavvyDeFi
Landslide Twitter: https://twitter.com/CosmosAVAX

Transcript

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I would like to welcome everyone to. The avac ecosystem space. I am one of your lovely hosts. My name is Brey. I do I'm Growth lead for Go-Go Pool. We are a permissionless liquid staking protocol with the specific vision of helping to expand the subnet and avalanche economy. I am joined here by my lovely co-host. We got Nathan here of Landslide and they bringing the cosmos to avalanche. Say, what's up my friend? Wow. We're here to blow up bags. N F A N F A. Good God, n f a. No promises of bags blowing up. Nfa. Yeah. Let's lose some money together. What? See, I would much rather you say that I'm here to lose money with a bunch of people. Yeah. I would much rather say that I'm joined here by my lovely guest. We got solar curve and he is a balancer. Maxie say, what's up my friend? Hey. Yes, quite the intro, sir. Very good, dude. I like to come with a lot of energy, man. We gotta get this space back popping, man. We're not gonna get to the bull run without giving some energy, man. So we gotta get it, my friend. But I'm super happy to have you on today. Oh, and lovely. Savvy Defi is in the building. That is my other co-host as well. Let's get them on up here. Let's get them on up here. I'm joined by Alex Lumley of Savvy Defi. They're doing non liquidating lines of credit on Arbitrary. Say, what's up my friend? Yo, what's What is up? How are you doing? Revy? Dude, I am doing amazing right now. I'm slightly, you doing pushups yet? I'm sweaty, slightly sweaty. Not gonna lie to you. Yo. We gotta, I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna switch it up. I'm gonna give Revi a free shoutout. Uh, I'm running, uh, Gogo Pool Unos. Uh, node, let's go. Highly recommend it. It's very easy to set up. If you wanna validate, um, with like a thousand avac instead of 2000 avac, it's super easy to do. Um, it's all non-custodial. You don't have to store your keys with cz. Um, highly recommend it. Hey, I really appreciate you for the love, man. I really, really do, man. And for anyone out there, if you're interested in running a validator through Gogo Pool called a mini pool, please feel free to hit up the Gogo Pool account. Hit up my personal account, hit up Steven Gates, hit up somebody.'cause you really need to get your hands on this, my friend. But hey Nathan, I really, really appreciate you for that, my friend. Um, but we are joined here by Solar Curve, so we gotta get this thing on the balancer. So let me go over the agenda really quick, everybody. So first thing what we're gonna do here, we're gonna start with the interview of Solar Curve. That's our special guest, the balancer Maxi himself. He gonna tell us a little bit about his crypto story, how he got to the game, overview of Balancer, gonna go over, how does Balancer work, why they decide to, you know, launch on Avalanche and how that has affected Avalanche, uh, avalanche Avalanche, uh, since they went ahead and launched. And then after that, we gonna start closing things up. We can get some closing remarks from the panel up here. We're gonna let Alex Lumby tell us about, tell us the liquidity parts that they got going on over there. So we definitely gotta hear what's going on. Um, but just to kind of kick everything off, solar Curve, can you give us a crypto story, man? How did you, how did you land here in this beautiful space? Yeah, sure. So, uh, Five, six years ago now, I guess back in the glory days of 2017, everything was going up and people were making a lot of money, and I saw that and I decided I wanted some money for myself. So I came in and bought ETH and Bitcoin and started reading and being part of the community, like was on Reddit a lot back then. And then, uh, moved on from those to buying the smaller tokens. Uh, back then I was in like Xer X and O M G and type of stuff that did pretty good in 17. And then of course the bear market hit, but uh, I was already like interested at that point in the technology and the, the rest of it, you know, making money was always nice, but uh, it was also. I think a community and just like a, something I could believe in, I guess that would be, you know, for the future. And we're kind of in the, the, just the beginning of it. And I found that very interesting. Uh, so I spent the bear market, you know, staying engaged and did a lot of on chain stuff with like Uni V one and Uni V two and Curve when it first deployed. And when Defi summer hit in 2020, I was like well positioned because I was already an on chain native effectively at that point. Uh, so I got, you know, some fatty airdrops and made pretty good money during that little run as well. And that's when balancer entered the picture. I found the early balancer stuff very interesting, like they generalized unis Wap V two effectively, and I was already a big fan of Unis Wap V one. But just the limitation that I could only have two tokens and I had to have eth as one of them. Uh, the balancer like made it so I could have eight tokens in liquidity pool and they could do whatever I wanted. Uh, so I found that very interesting. And yeah, I started hanging out then the balancer community and contributing, like, I made a website for Balancer V one so you could explore the pools and get information on them that their official UI wasn't showing back then. So that kind of got me in with the team a little bit. And yeah, I just kinda stuck around at Balancer ever since. Slowly starting to do more and more stuff. So, and then, uh, yeah, that leads us to today, I guess, solid curve. I really gotta highlight you really quick because I always have to highlight, you know, community members who, who kind of step up. They decide to create tooling or, you know, content or, you know, really just kind of help the community out. Uh, what, what made you decide to spin up that website for the balancer community? Yeah, you know, back then Balancer was printing b a l just like they are today. But the rules were a little bit different. Uh, they just like, well, I mean, they iterated a lot, but in the beginning it was just indiscriminate. Like you could make a pool with whatever tokens and you would get b a l rewards based on the T B L that you were providing. But there was no way to know what that t like what that a p R was for b a l, because it wasn't, it was airdropped like every week back then, so you weren't like staking a gauge and there wasn't a way to read it on chains. Like back then, you know, you had food farms and you could get like a VFA tools spun up and people see the APRs and it's like all super easy. But bouncer V one. All the rewards were handled off chain, so somebody had to make like a website to see the rewards, a p r, but the balance team, you know, didn't want to do that. Um, for whatever reason, I wasn't privy to their reasoning back then, but there were two guys, me and Mika Honk, who like worked for uh, the block for a while. I think he does his own thing now. But he's a super smart guy. Like he, he made the first one and then I made one very similar to his, but with a little bit more because I was really interested in the fee side of it because these bouncer pools like were earning swap fees of course. And I was very interested to know which pools were earning the most swap fees so I could like see what tokens they had in them and like maybe I was gonna buy those tokens and put'em in my pool so I could earn all those fees. So my website like lets you sort by fees earned and it had like volume andt v l and also had b a L rewards. A p r as well. And I think it was like, it was pretty much the only website of, its kind for like the second half of Bouncer V one's life. So I think it became pretty popular and I just taught myself how to do that. Like just taking some Udemy classes on JavaScript and React. So that was like at the depths of the, like just after the Covid crash in March, I think. Yeah, black Thursday in 2020 lost like all my money in that and I was like, I may need some marketable skills now that I'd have no money left. So I was like, maybe I should learn to code. So I did some online like Udemy, JavaScript, and React and like by the time I get through that, The market was already picking back up and I was like in with bouncer and I knew I wanted to make this bouncer website, so I just like learned the little bit that I needed to make the website. That was the motivation. And it was just, yeah, special time because I was really, really motivated and you can like accomplish a lot of really cool stuff when you are super, super motivated. But after I finished it, I never could get that motivation back. Like I tried to code a few other times, like tried to work on some other projects, but that fire just wasn't there anymore, you know? And I haven't really done anything ever since with it. Hey, I could completely understand that my friend, um, I, I used to code pretty heavy back in the day, but I, I definitely got some coding burnout just from making a bunch of websites and stuff. Um, and it sounds like the, the site that you specifically created was, you know, way more complicated than just the, the, the plug and churn like websites that I was just kind of putting out there. Like you're making a full dashboard basically. So yeah, it was pretty comprehensive. It took data from the balancer sub graph. It was, it was pretty cool. Yeah, definitely. I look back on that time period with a lot of fond memories for sure. Yeah. It's, and it is so interesting, you know, like, I gotta highlight this'cause we're in the crypto space, right? Like, it's so interesting when you're like saying like, back then, right. And it's only like two years ago, but you know, in crypto that's like decades. Yeah. Crypto. Moves far quicker than real life, right? Like, just think about what we've seen since March, 2020 until now. Right? I mean, that would, you could probably fit like 10 or 15 years of traditional finance market cycles in that time period. It's pretty crazy. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, it's pretty insane. And so, so you built that website, you know, that kind of got, you know, on the radar of like the balancer team. So what, what do you do for balancer now? Well, balancer is like as close, it's one of the more pure DAOs out there. So there's various teams that contribute to the bouncer protocol and uh, the team I work with is called the Bouncer Maxes. And we do like a lot of operational stuff and business development and integrations. And we also work with all of the other teams that. We work on balancer, so we're, uh, yeah, and that just came about just, you know, from the community. Everybody that's on the balancer, maxi was a, just a community member who was interested in balancer and they found ways to do useful things. And, you know, we came together and yeah, we do now we, we fulfill some very important roles. Absolutely. So we've, we're very important to balancer and, but that's because we're all very passionate about balancer. That's where it all started for us. So it's pretty cool. I really love that. I, I really, really love that, that, you know, you kind of, you, you started off just kind of like as more of a community member, almost more so like a DGen, uh, more so like just, you know, getting, grabbing fees and then from there you decided I'm gonna build this dashboard. You know,'cause the community really needs it. And then from there you took your passion even further heights to now also, um, running with the, uh, balancer maxes as well. And, you know, really helping with BD integration. So then, because I know we've been talking to you as well, so, you know, hats off to you, my friend, and you know, now we really kind of let's profile balancer a little bit. Right. Can you kind of give folks just, you know, who don't know, just a quick overview of balancer. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I said balancer V one was kind of a generalization of Uni Swap V two, which I, I imagine everyone's familiar with. Uh, so yeah, that, that's what we now call a weighted pool. So like a weighted pool is just a generalized version of Uni B two. You could have up to eight tokens and whatever waiting. You wanna have, you know, 25, 25, 25, 25 or whatever. But now balancer V two, which is either, you know, was released over two years ago now, so we're all getting old. But, uh, it's like a platform for Amms. So a weighted pool is just one kind of a m m. Now I say a m m, that's like automated market makers. So like a weighted pool is one type of a&m that you can have on balancer V two. Another type we have is Stable swap, which is a fork of the original curve style pool. So like, ideal for like kind assets like two U s d stable coins, you would put them in a stable pool. Uh, and we also have some projects who have built their own custom pools on bouncer, you know, taking advantage of the fact that we are a platform for developers. So we have a project that's built, concentrate, liquidity. We have a project that's built for X pools, which is actually on avalanche. See the U S D C, Euro C pool. That's with save finance, that's how you pronounce it. But, uh, they've, yeah, developed on balancer for quite a long time and their pool is actually doing pretty well, which is exciting to see. But, uh, yeah, you know, balancer is a. You know, decks just like the others, uh, you know, we're in that business, but we're also in the business of empowering developers to like build on top of balancer and kind of leverage our platform to get their ideas out there. You know, I think this four x pool is a perfect example of that. Like, if they build their own a m m, they wouldn't like be part of this launch with us, right? They wouldn't have nearly the reach that they have, but because they built on balancer, they can leverage like our resources and that makes'em a lot more successful. So it's, it's pretty cool. Yeah, I really love this. All right, so let's talk a little bit about,'cause you know, you guys just launched on Avalanche. Can you talk a little bit about, um, you know, where you, where you came from, and then why you decided to then also launch on Avalanche as well? Yeah, definitely. So, uh, You know, as things have evolved during the bear market and you know, more and more D is popping up and the rise of concentrate liquidity on like Uni V three style, you know, balancer has to recognize that we operate very well in certain sectors of the market and not so well in other sectors. And one of those sectors that we do really well in is, uh, stable swaps. So like U s d, stable swaps, and in particular, uh, LSTs like state deep e you know, those kind of pools balancer can excel in. Uh, so avalanche was interesting because you have like the underlying infrastructure for LSTs, right? You can stake avalanche, uh, earn rewards, and you can put that in a derivative token and trade it around, right? Same way you can do it with e. Uh, the difference is avalanche is very early, I think, in the lifecycle of building out the LSTs and the ecosystem around them. Uh, you know, you only have one big one and I put big and air quotes, which you can't see, but, uh, it's not even that big right? State Dave Ax from Benke. So, uh, we also have a couple small ones like Go-Go Pool, which you know, is growing pretty quick, so maybe it won't be small much longer. Uh, and yield act ax as well. So we have all three on balancer, on Avalanche. And, uh, that was one thing that attracted me to like advocate for the deployment, is that there was this beginning of an ecosystem and by bouncer arriving, like we're, we're starting to supercharge that ecosystem and I hope that. This was kind of just the first spark that will ignite a bigger fire in this sector on avalanche. So we'll see. But that's my hope. You know what we, we will see like how the effect will be over time. For sure. I can say, you know, personally with, uh, being growth for Gogo Pool, you know, you guys launching has just been actually huge for us, right? Um, at like 10 Xing the amount of liquidity that we've, that we've had. Um, not only that, since we've been able to gather that much liquidity now, then we can approach other defi protocols and then, um, ask for integrations with G G A VX so that we can then have more things for our users at, at the end of the day to actually use G G A VX for. Um, so really, really just need to highlight that. Uh, Nathan, I saw you on, on mute. What's up my friend? Yeah. So, um, Brey, um, can you explain why it 10 x. Like how, how did Balancer directly impact the liquidity of Gogo pool? Oh, for sure, for sure. So our pool is directly on balancer, so since the balancer pool is, I think it's somewhere, I think it's at around like 2 million or something like that. I mean, I'm sorry, around 3 million or something like that. Uh, since it's around that, we have about$3 million worth of liquidity in g g Avac since it's a g g Avac pool. So we're then able to take that liquidity and then talk to other defi protocols, because most Defi protocols who want to integrate with a project, they're gonna have some sort of liquidity requirement that you need to have in order to integrate with them. So it's, so, yeah, keep going. My bad. I I wanna give me the Mr. Rogers version of it though, because you guys also, Gogo Pool itself has a liquid staking token called G G avac. So, Like back, back the truck up and give, give people the Mr. Rogers version. What, what do you do with gig G Vacs on balancer. Got you. Okay. So you, you want the whole, you want the whole spiel. I got you my friend. Yeah, man. Set the table. Give me, gimme some wine. Gimme some silverware. I. I got you. And then, uh, Conrad, I just, uh, just pulled you up. I will get to your question in one second. Uh, so, so if you have Avalanche, what you can do is you can pop onto Gogo pool and you can stake your avalanche with us. And then receive, obviously rewards a staking fee for that. And then in return, you'll receive what's called G G A vxx. You can then take that G g a vxx, that is your, that's the liquid representation of the avalanche that you have staked with us. You can take that and then put it into the balancer pool, and then you can actually stake that one side with them. And then I believe the a p R for that pool somewhere around 20% right now. Um, fluctuating obviously. Um, okay, but paid in balancer tokens on Avalanche, right? That 20%. So it's paid. Oh, so that's, so yeah, so there's multiple incentives in that pool. So there is one, avac is getting paid out, two U S D C is getting paid out. And then three, our token, the G G P token is getting paid out. So it's really, really cool because, um, specifically with our token, the G G P token, you're able to come in with a, with g g avac, um, put up that g g avac grab G G P, and then now you have some sort of, uh, so our, our token is basically, you know, correlated with subnets, obviously that's our whole mission. So now you have some sort of, uh, vibe into subnet. I'm messing up on the word here. You have some sort of correlation with subnets happening, and then you can build up your G G P, and then the hope is that one day that you'll be able to start spin up a mini pool using that G G P, and then you'll be validating the network eventually. So, um, the U S D C is provided by balancer in this case, right? Yes, sir. Yes sir. And solar curve, correct me if I'm wrong, are there other assets? I'm sorry. Are there other, sorry. Are there other assets that are provided by balancer in this equation? Just the U SS D C for now, but b a o emissions will start probably in three to four weeks or so. So the, the balancer emissions, is that, uh, how is that, uh, governed or emitted? Is it, can you dive into that? Yeah, so this gets to the heart of why a bouncer. Cares about L ss t liquidity, right? Because most Ds don't care about L S T liquidity, and the reason for that is they don't earn much money on it. Uh, so balancer has a unique innovation where we can apply a protocol fee to the yield of these LSTs. So like you may have noticed, the A P R displayed on the site for LSTs is about half of what you would expect to see, and that the reason for that protocol fee on the yield. So in exchange for you paying that protocol fee balancer will, uh, take a portion of those fees and return them as voting incentives for pools on avalanche. Like in fact, all the protocol fees we earn on avalanche. Are directed back as voting incentives and sent like to our treasury. There's like a split. It's 50% go to voting incentives and 50% go other places. But, uh, that's how the b a l emissions are going to arrive because of the fees that we're earning now will be used as incentives for voters to vote for these pools. And that's how our emission system is controlled. We have vbo, which is locked, b a l liquidity. The people that lock that liquidity can vote for particular pools, and based on that voting, that's where the emissions are sent. So in order to get people to vote for avalanche pools, we have to, you know, pay them money. That's generally how the system works. So where do we get that money from? Well, the protocol fees that we're earning on Avalanche, and that fee on yield is a significant driver of not only revenue on Avalanche, but globally. All the balance is revenue. I would estimate. Probably at least 75% is from this yield fee. So it is significant. Okay, got it. So, um, and can I ask a, a specific question about the bridge strategy? Sure, absolutely. Can you, can you talk, uh, so the background is land landslide is connecting i b c to avalanche. So I'm, we're, we're, our specialty is the trust assumptions that are built into i, you know, i b, c and the other bridges. So maybe you can chat a little bit about how the e native protocol is bridging to avalanche. Yeah. So, uh, in the beginning we were using multi chain, but let's just be thankful. Well, I'm sure, I'm glad you're not anymore. Yeah, well, we're both thankful that we weren't starting emissions before, but uh, yeah, luckily we just kind of laid the infrastructure and then like the deployment took much longer, so we didn't actually use it. And then multi chain collapsed. Uh, so we pivoted and now we're layer zero. Uh, our b a l token on avalanche is an O F T powered by layer zero. But, uh, all of our other networks are bridged with the official bridges, so they're not LFTs on the only O F T we have is on avalanche. So avalanche is a bit of a unique case of course.'cause it's a alternate layer one and not a layer two of it there. I'm so, so you, when you say official bridges, would you just, I, I'm not sure which you are referring to. Like the canonical bridges, like the optimism bridge, like you bridge, and then in order to bridge back it's a seven day wait time. And arbitrary is the same thing and base is the same thing. That's what I would, that's what I'm saying is the official bridge. And polygon also has like an official bridge in there. Their wallet, uh, I don't know the mechanics of exactly how their bridge works, but, uh, seven day wait time. That sounds like a c h. Yeah, it's painful. But, uh, actually interestingly enough, there is a protocol called across, which is, uh, like maybe a smaller bridging protocol, but uh, they have a unique system where they can allow users to bridge b a l, like. And like b a l is still on the official bridge, but across has like a network of relays that will shoot b a l back to main net like very quickly, as long as the amounts are small enough because they don't have that much liquidity. But, uh, there is a way to get around the seven days for like the, all the people that are farming and all that. So it is not the end of the world. But, uh, yeah, well we're, we're happy to provide a I B C relayer from Avalanche to other chains like Cosmos, so we could deploy balance or natively to Cosmos and there's no weight period. Question is what you do with B a L when you get it to Cosmos, but, uh, yes. Well the question is what we do when we get to Mars as well, but we get there. What could be interesting is Cosmos assets on Avalanche though because, uh, there are like staked. Versions of Adam, if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know. Yeah, that's, that's dried. So I don't know what kind of assets you're bringing to Avalanche, but we'd definitely Yeah. Be interested in thinking about staked atom, atom liquidity type situation. That could be interesting. Oh yeah. Well there, uh, balancer is sort of like an index of LSTs, right? Well, it's all about the pools that you design, right? You can design whatever kind of pools you want. Like our pools on avalanche are focused on LSTs, but, uh, we can do Adam Avac. But the, the, the ideal thing would be staked a Adam and then another pool that's like Adam Avax. So like you can link to the rest of the ecosystem, but you have that staked atom atom for people to just want exposure to the yield. And then that could potentially enable a. Downstream integrations like a lending market could list stake to atom on avalanche, right? That's kind of the goal. When you're building liquidity for these things, you're not just building liquidity for the sake of building liquidity. You're, uh, that liquidity enables other things to be done with the assets. Like that would be the goal. Now, maybe there's not a place for that on avalanche, you know, that's just me spitballing. But that's the general strategy here. Well, uh, you know, our, our general thought on it is that the, the users are somehow tied to the chain versus the app. And in the future, when, when all these chains are talking to each other, the users aren't gonna be tied to the, to the blockchain itself. They're gonna, they're not gonna be that chain version of a maxi, right? They're gonna be protocol maxis. So if, if you have, um, you know, just, just as a, just circling back on, on the multi chain collapse, the reason that that collapse and, and the keys are in the hands of the CCPs because. It was built on a trust assumption of multi SIGs, right? So if you have, if you have a bridge that that uses some threshold of multi SIGs, you have like a$5 wrench attack problem. Um, and so like the reason we built I b C on on I BBC is because it has a different set of trust assumptions, which is just that the target and the source chain are safe. Um, so like, yeah, layer, layer zero is now relaying between unis swap on e and unis, SWP on avalanche and, and now balancer, um, uh, and balancer on, on avalanche. So con congrats, like they, they seem to be a pretty safe bridge so far. So well done. Um, well done sir. I'll pass the mic back to, to Bre and I just caught the mic. And now I'm speaking into the mic. What's up? Now? I'm back. Um, so I do have a, I do have a question myself, but Comrade has been on waiting patiently. Uh, comrade. You got the floor, my friend. Thank you. Uh, question for solar is there seems to be like a, a general animosity from like each community to to, to avalanche. And it's great that unis, SWP, and balancer has deployed to Amax, you know, because they see the potential in the chain. But I just wanted to like, get your insight or, or feedback as to why we have this kind of like, uh, animosity between both chains. And then the second part is, um, like I, I know for a fact like li like liquidity, right? Like they, they, I, I know that they denied deploying the vacs. They were like, oh, we're gonna, we're gonna stick to e and l twos. And that's it. Like there's, there's like a lot of like e maximalism here. So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on how, what we could do to like, Uh, reduce that like animosity intention, um, that, uh, that I see across both chains. Well, you know, it's interesting because you'll see many e protocols on Avalanche, right? A lot of'em deployed during the last bull run, and then, you know, more recently unis swapping balancer. So you say there's a lot of animosity, you know, that can be true. I think when you are scrolling Twitter and I, I've seen that too, but I think at the end of the day, you, you all these, these protocols on avalanche tell the real story, right? That it's just a question of going, like, where there's potential, where there's users and there's clearly potential in users on Avalanche. Like, I don't think there's any question about that. Uh, it's just, you know, The bear market has hit everybody and we're all recovering, but I don't, you know, avalanche is far from dead, and that's clear from unis swapping balancer coming, like, we wouldn't be coming if, uh, we didn't view the potential here. But I think it, you know, it's just Twitter stuff, you know, people need stuff to talk about on Twitter and baiting other communities. It's a good way to bait engagement. Uh, I don't think it's much more, I mean, there's always the people that are diehards, but, uh, there's a, a large group of people who are also just pragmatic and want the technology to succeed. And Avalanche has a particular approach. He has a, maybe another approach, maybe they're similar, maybe they're different. I'm not a technical expert, but you can read the Twitter threads. But the goal is, you know, everybody is trying to onboard users. That's what we're all working on. So I think the most productive use of our time is to just. Onboard users versus fight with each other over the current users we have. Right? Like, it just doesn't make sense for e to try to steal avalanche users, avalanche to try to steal E users. Right? You should be trying to build, like grow the pie, get more users here. Like that's how this is all gonna succeed. Yeah. I think we're, I think we're trending in the right direction, you know, when you see balancer and, and uni launching. Um, and I think, you know, spaces like this, right, where we have a, a balancer maxi coming into an AVAC ecosystem space, I think, you know, things like this are extremely important to where, you know, balancer can come in a, amongst all of the avalanche community in Comrad, you can have the ability to talk to, you, know them directly about, you know, the situation at hand and then. This is also creating a, a, a great network effect as well. Right. You know, we're all becoming more familiar with balancer and more familiar with other change together and, you know, so I think that we're definitely striving towards the right direction. And now kind of looping in with, uh, this, this question I had'cause so I I I've been reading up a lot on balancer and one of the things it talked about was the, the self. It's as like a self rebalancing, um, kind of function. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, so I mean there's, there's definitely a few aspects to this, but I would say the most basic aspect is just the idea of like a weighted pool that has fixed weightings. Uh, so I think on avalanche, maybe we don't have many good examples, but there is a new like B T C B. Uh, boosted Ave V three U s D, which is effectively just like Bitcoin, 50% Bitcoin 50% U s D, right? So that's a fixed percentage. Uh, but obviously Bitcoin is going up and down in u s d value all the time. So, uh, arbitrage bots will rebalance this pool's liquidity to ensure that it's always 50% Bitcoin, 50% U s d fee, or, you know, stable, whatever it is. And you earn fees on this, right? So this is just the Unity two innovation. Uh, and it of course in Tradify, like you have this idea of ETFs, uh, that rebalance quarterly, and you pay the manager of that E T f, like a fee for that, right? An I balancer just turns that on its head. Like if you wanted to make a. Pool of AVAC tokens like G G P and Q and you know, whatever, and throw all those in a balancer pool and just let the market rebalance it for you as they all go up and down and you're just earning swap fees that entire time. Like you can do that. And that's what I did three years ago. That's how I was first using balancer, just making my own little index from tokens. Uh, but of course there are some other more novel uses that we've come up with. One is called a liquidity bootstrapping pool. And this is popular for token launches, at least it was back in the day where, uh, you could launch a new token. And the weights would shift over time. So instead of the weights being fixed, maybe it starts 99% token and goes all the way down to 50% token. So that means the pool is slowly selling token, uh, you know, into the market. Now, of course, with a, a new token, there is no market really. So you're just, the price of the token is just going down, down, down until. People wanna buy it, right? Until it gets to the price people wanna buy. So then they would buy into the pool. And in this way, you avoid the FOMO of a new token launch because there's no rush to buy quickly because the price is only gonna go down for the next, like two to three days or however long the launch lasts. So it was a, it was a novel mechanism that was really popular in the bull market when people were launching tokens and raising tons of money and you wanted, you know, a fair launch, as fair as you could. Uh, this was a really good mechanism to do that. Of course, this can also be used for other things like, uh, if you wanted to divest, say e for stable coins. Uh, but. Maybe you have like a hundred billion dollars of E and you can't just market sell. Uh, so maybe you're gonna use a liquidity bootstrapping pool. I mean, you should call it, it's not a good name for this, but it works the same way, right?'cause you can start like 90% E, 10% U S D C and tell it to go. Maybe you want to end at like 10% E and 90% U S D C, and maybe you wanna do that like over the next month. So over the next month, the weights will slowly trickle in that direction and in that entire time you're selling E for U S D C. So it's like a, you know, very smooth mechanism to change from one asset to the other. And we've seen many uses of this, uh, on e f, like, uh, Bitcoin was given a bunch of dog tokens by Vitalik, right during the dog money craze of the last bull market. And they wondered like, oh, how do we get rid of these? So if they sold them, they would just, you know, send the coin to zero. Uh, and there was a, an lb, they actually chose to do an L B P and it was a, a very big one that lasted a very long time. And they finished like a while ago now. But, uh, they raised a bunch of e and without sending the token to zero because they just sold a little bit of it all the time for like a, I think it was a year or two or something. So, definitely interesting. A lot of use cases, but, uh, yeah, that's extremely interesting. And I, I wish I didn't have one more question'cause that would've been like a perfect segue into Alex and, uh, savvy Defi who are currently doing the L B P, but I can just mention you really quick. So it's kind of a segue, but it's really not. But they are doing an L B P, so like it all works out Anyway, I'm just being weird. Uh, so we, no, no. Let's, let's, let's dive into it, man. Give it, give it, give it some airtime. Here we go. Well, on, hold on, hold on. I, I got, I got, I got a, I got a question too, and then I, we, we brought Eric for you up here. Eric's got a question, but then we can, we can head on to, into the, uh, L B P party that Savvy's got going on. So, real, real quick, because I know you, you were talking about that you made your own index fund utilizing balancer. Can you kinda walk through that process? Yeah, sure. It's really easy. Uh, anybody can use Balancer's UI to do this. Uh, you can just. Uh, choose what tokens you want. Uh, so in my case, I used to have eight tokens in the pool and they were all like eef, uh, defi stuff when Defi was really popular. So I had like comp and ave and synthetics and uni and wifi in there and that kind of thing. But, uh, yeah, you just, you get the tokens. It could be up to eight. That's the maximum our weighted pool support right now. Uh, and then you can just set the percentages you want. In my case, I just made them all equal, so like 12.5%. Uh, and then, yeah, you just put them in the pool and arbitrages rebalance even one inch will route you some trades if you happen to put useful liquidity in there. It really depends on what tokens, right? Because if you put a bunch of exotic tokens, probably no one's gonna be trading exotic token to exotic token. But if you put like, Avac in there, or you put U S D C in there, then we might see some trade routes from, uh, the aggregators. But, uh, yeah, anybody can spin up their own little avalanche index fund. I mean, we used to incentivize those kind of pools back in the day. But, uh, yeah, the fact of the matter is, you know, it's a tough market for tokens. People just aren't gonna invest in a pool with a bunch of weird tokens, uh, is what it's, so it's more of a hobbyist thing nowadays. But if somebody's got like tokens on Avalanche, they're bullish on and they wanna earn a little bit of swap fees on them, then I think this is a great option to consider. Of course, you have the trade off of impermanent loss, right? Because those swap fees aren't for free. They are to cover your impermanent loss. So like if you have eight tokens in a bouncer pool and one of those tokens, 10 Xs and the others like, go down a little bit, then your pool is always selling that winner, the one that's 10 x-ing for all the other ones that are going down. Right. So that's the problem. Like that's the thing that you have to carefully consider when you're in a raging bull market where something might go up 20% and the next day it's gonna go down 10 and then something else is gonna go up 20 and it's. Too much work to chase stuff. Then you just wanna like have maybe 4, 5, 6 tokens that you just wanna hold and let'em all gyrate. Then that's like a good case for a weighted pool or something. But in this kind of a market where it's like really specific, maybe one token has like a narrative and people are gonna wanna invest in that one, but they're not gonna care about the others. That's dangerous because you could see a lot of impermanent loss while of course you are earning a lot of swap fees. So it can be a little complex and I'm sure I got wrecked by impermanent loss back in the day. I might've been way richer if I had never discovered a balancer pool in the first place. You could say that potentially. I think so. That's good marketing, bro. Wow. Luckily there's not that many people here, so nobody heard that. I love that. Um, uh, I appreciate you for, uh, like going through all that, man,'cause all that definitely sounds extremely interesting. Um, Eric, I brought you up here, my friend. You got the floor. Hey, thanks man. I really appreciate it. Uh, I'm glad to be up here. Like, uh, you know, we're, we're building a, a, uh, avalanche native protocol that is actually, you can say almost like a cousin of balancer. So it's quite exciting to see you guys, uh, come to Avalanche. I, I know we're, we're actually like, we're gonna launch on the same day you guys did, but Avalara's like, oh, we're gonna make a pretty big announcement. You might not wanna launch on that date. So, like, we're, we're kinda waiting a little bit, but like, uh, it's, it's all pretty exciting to see what's happening on, on Avalanche. And just wanna say a bit to introduce myself since you're here and, you know, the Gogo Pool and Landslide two, you know, we're talking about some cool stuff. You mentioned index funds, so, you know, avalanche is a big drive for a big fan of cavalry over here. Just, just to give you some, some introduction. I'm gonna, I'm gonna interrupt you and be your hype man. Dude, I'm like so stoked about Cavalry. It's like multis swap. In a single transaction. It's like, it's like you're swapping an index fund in a transaction. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So like w you know, avalanche, they're big on off chain assets. And I, I come from a Triad five background. It used to be a Wall Street quants, et cetera, physicists, all that good stuff. And, and so we developed this new protocol and, you know, we've got a, right now on Testnet, you know, we've got a, a pool with over 500 tokens in it. So we, we, we've got a pool that represents, uh, index fund of the s and p 500. So just think about tokenizing equities and, uh, you know, 500 stocks in a pool. How many trading pairs is that? That's over 125,000, uh, trading pairs in a single pool. So, yeah, it's pretty exciting. And we, we've done swaps like we've, we've, uh, challenged our, our Discord community and one guy did a swap with 340 uh, tokens in a single interaction with the A M M pool. So just think about rebalancing a, a portfolio like any global asset manager. Man, I, I gotta have, I don't have dump in the pool. Yeah, it, it's, it's pretty exciting. Like, yeah, we wanna work with all you guys, so, so welcome to Avalanche. Looking forward to, like, finding synergies with you guys and, uh, yeah, so like s and p 500, that's, that's like, we're gonna see that in a couple years on avalanche with, with pools, with index funds, basically with, with over 500 tokens in it, bringing FX equities, all the capital markets on chain. And so, yeah. So, we'll, we'll, we'll hopefully be making some big announcements soon. Like this is a semi announcement, I'm just gonna telling you, we're right around the corner. We were gonna punch when you guys came and said, well, let's let, let's let them, uh, let's, let's, so we're, we're quite ready and we're excited and I, I see lots of opportunity for synergy, you know, and, and it turns out like I, I didn't quite realize how close we were to balancer. But, uh, I did some math the other day and it's like, if you assume a multis swap can trade continuously, then the mathematics actually we, we can drive a balancer in like six lines of, of math. It's pretty cool. So, so I think we're actually tied more at the hip than I originally thought. We're more discreet in nature because we're, we're discreet and rather than continuous then, uh, that's why we can do, you know, I've done tests with 10,000 tokens in a single pool, you know, so like pretty much every digital asset you can imagine, we, we can stuff into a pool if we want it, but, uh, yeah. But Eric, are you running a centralized sequencer? That's the secret. You're not supposed to tell anybody. No, of course not. This is a hundred percent on, uh, avalanche sea chain. We're gonna put, we're gonna create a, we're gonna do a subnet soon, you know, kind of the, the roadmap is typically launched on sea chain and then do go for, for the subnet, uh, later, you know, so yeah, a hundred percent decentralized, permissionless. We are doing some kind of stuff that I, I think some DJs won't like too much.'cause, you know, we are kind of worried about a M L and OFAC and, and that kinda stuff. So we we're gonna have some slight, uh, permission stuff, like if you're on the OFAC list, you can't trade, you know, basically so blacklist. But, uh, other than that, uh, we're, we're permissionless and yeah, just excited. Great to meet you guys. Looking forward to, you know, I've been talking about this for a while and it's kind of like you can only talk so long. Yeah, I wanna see that at the table. So, so Eric, we're gonna be launching soon, Eric, how, how, how, how can I swap G G A VX. And and balancer on cavalry. Yeah, for sure. That, that would probably, so right now we're, we're launching a single pool with 10 tokens in it. And this is pure crypto, it's blue chip is like a, we've got obviously Rap Ax, we've got Rap Ethereum, we've got, uh, rep B T C, we've got B T C B, then we've got a bunch of stable. So it's a, the initial pool is pure Crypto 10 tokens, kind of a, um, a, we call it like a blue chip, large cap crypto. But, uh, yeah, probably the number two pool we launch. I'd like to do something like the liquid staking tokens in a pool for sure. We can do that. We could put a balancer token together with all, you know, we could put all the staking tokens together in the pool. That, that makes a lot of sense. We, we probably do need some coordination'cause there's not really standards. And what about that and what about savvy on arbitrary? I'm gonna loop in our, our cohost here, how do we get them involved? I'd love to talk to them. I don't, I don't know, like maybe off chain, like offline. I'd love to talk to those guys and and figure it out. Yeah, I dunno. Well, we could one, I mean probably the, the simple solution right now is because, because they're on arb, uh, use a canonical ARB Bridge, uhhuh, otherwise we can, we can launch an I BBC like client there. Yeah, I'd love to talk to you guys. Yeah, I think we've exchanged a couple messages and stuff, but I've just been so busy trying to get us on, on main net that, you know, that that's the priority right now. But yeah, as soon as we're on main that, let's, let's start talking about that. Hey Eric, quick question. Like, uh, you have all these, uh, you know, 10 tokens, 50 tokens, like what happens? Like, how do you prevent like, Like a scenario where like an exploit happens and then all, all 50 tokens get like left. Yeah. So like, so, so what? Think of it like an E T F market. Like an E T F market. You can put like every single thing into one massive pool. Or you can have different, uh, pools representing different parts of the market, like utilities or blue cap stables. You can have a stable pool, blah, blah, blah. So like, yeah, there is some risk, uh, if, if there's a, a token that is kind of malicious or something, but like, uh, you know, in a way, in a way the pool can handle that.'cause it's like the value you won't necessarily be able to drain, uh, the rest of the tokens. There. There's some unique dynamics. It, it's not a constant product pool, you know, it's not a geometric mean pool. There's some difference in the mathematics that provides some inherent, uh, risk for these kind of scenarios. But yeah. We'll, we can talk about that stuff later. But yeah, I think if, if a, if a token goes to zero and its weight is 5%, that's pretty much the worst you could lose is is the 5%. So how do you feel about unis swp basically stealing cavalry's idea through the singleton contract that they, uh, implemented with the unis people? I, I don't think I, I don't think I'd say they, they stole anything. I mean, like, honestly, UV one was pretty cool. Like if, if they, if they, if unis SWP could do, uh, you know, single-sided staking, which we can, uh, natively then, uh, you know, I think, and, and I don't know why they can't, you know, but, uh, you know, the u v one was kind of unified liquidity, like what we're talking about, the singleton. I, I wouldn't say unis sop sold anything from us'cause they don't know about us. You, you know, unis like, is awesome. You know, I love balancer's. Awesome. You guys are the OGs. We have total respect for, for everything. You know, we're building on the shoulders of giants and stuff like that, so, so I don't wanna say anything bad about these guys. I think anything that we're doing, I think obviously I think we're doing something better or I wouldn't do it. But like, I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing without the work of unis swapping balancers. So that's off to everybody. Awesome. So my friend Prince over here, they've, they've been waiting pretty patiently. You got the floor, my friend. Hello. Hello. Um, thank you so much for actually having us and, and, and big shout out to Calvary and to Balancer and I, I actually was hoping to invite, um, My, my friend, my colleague, and, uh, a balancer, uh, uh, an expert in liquidity, bootstrapping pool's, i d m up to talk. Uh, do you mind, do you mind if I see the floor to him? Would you mind inviting? I've seen the rest of my time. I, I would love to see the Florida i d m me and Id m have some great conversations. Id m's probably laughing, but if you remember to say conversation. Um, so I'll just, I'll just, I'll just, I'll just give, uh, people a quick background on I D M I D M is, uh, is a, is a core contributor at Savvy. He has a PhD in like social complex systems and does all these crazy things. Suffice to say he is a unicorn and can both build Discord bots, talk about memes and create memes on Twitter. So he's a, he's a unique individual, but one of the coolest things he did is he, is, he built out a, a whole model on liquidity bootstrapping pools and basically took, there's this famous balancer, um, uh, kind of, uh, Google, like, like spreadsheet that was created to help people de determine what the parameters of an L B P should be. I D M took that and created a whole, like, ran a whole bunch of simulations around it and it actually gave a talk at the Subnet Summit, uh, with, with Nathan here about it. But I'll let, I'll, I'll let I d m tell. And, and, and specifically ask a question. Thanks guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, what's up? What's up everybody? Um, yeah. Uh, it so happens that we are running an L B P right now. Uh, savvy is doing this. And, um, uh, so we, we were thrilled actually to, to be able to, uh, uh, hop on, uh, this space with, uh, with some, uh, some balancer, uh, uh, L B p like expertise. I mean, it's, yes, exactly what you're talking about with the weights, like shifting like, uh, uh, over the course of the L B P and, and the unique, uh, properties, uh, that, that enables. Uh, we dove really deep into it. We, we knew we were gonna do an L B P for a long time, and so we wanted to learn as much as possible about it. And, uh, like Alex said, we, we took this balancer spreadsheet. Um, there's a lot of videos about this, uh, this spreadsheet, um, and, uh, uh, converted it to an agent-based model, which is a kind of computational simulation with. And lots of market participants, uh, that are, uh, interacting with, uh, uh, with, uh, well, in this case it was actually a Python model of a balancer pool. Um, but you know, like, like there are other, uh, ways that you can do this, like against actual smart contracts and so on. But, uh, we ran this bunch of times in parallel. We, we tried, like basically the full parameter space. Uh, we tried every possible starting and ending weight. Um, we, we tried accounting for, for different, like, sizes of economies and everything. And one of the things that was really cool, um, is that the spreadsheet has this one parameter called, uh, token flow or token sale rate, uh, which is basically impossible to, to estimate'cause you don't know ahead of time how fast the L V P is gonna sell. Uh, but our model actually solves this completely. We, uh, it's, it's a, our model predicts sales. We have a model of demand. Um, so anyway, um, We are such insane fans of the balancer L B P contracts. Um, uh, this is absolutely fantastic and, uh, yeah, like Alex said, uh, since we, we dove so deep, uh, there's an hour long talk now. Uh, the, that I gave at the, um, the avalanche, uh, Sunnet Summit, uh, so that it is on YouTube. Uh,'cause we shared all the findings and, um, uh, ultimately, yeah, we, uh, we're, we're, uh, absolutely thrilled, uh, uh, to, to show up in the same space, uh, uh, as, as, uh, balancer, uh, expertise, uh, like right, right there. Uh, truly a pleasure. So, yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, I, I wanna plug our, our, uh, L B P one more time and, and, and, uh, hey, uh, Alex, uh, I know that, uh, uh, that you have more to say, um, um, you wanna hop back on. And also I'll take, uh, a anyone who has any, like, any comments or questions like, uh, like I'm, I'm, I'd love talking about LBPs. Um, I can go on for for hours, you know. Alex, you there? I'm here. Um, I was gonna let you, uh, take, take the floor there, sir. Brey, I, uh, in, in I D m I I, I, I appreciate you synthesizing hundreds of hours of research. Yeah, man. Like, uh, it goes, it goes on and on and on. You know, we did tens of thousands of these simulations, uh, uh, by, by the end of it, and we're running it live. I mean, like, I, I'm, I'm watching this, uh, this market. It's on, uh, Fjord Foundry. Uh, the, which is the new Copper launch, uh, iteration, and, uh, uh, and just directly builds on top of, uh, the balancer, uh, uh, contracts. And so I'm just watching this, this market, like going on and on, and I'm thinking about the simulations and, uh, and all the possible like futures, the parallel universes, like where the, the, the market goes one way or it goes the other way. I'm just watching this. It's, it's a crazy experience. I'm, I'm feeling like this is wild right now. So this L B P is an incredible experience. So, so the la the last thing I'll just say to this is like, obviously the LBP is going on on on Pure Foundry, N f A n f A. Um, check it out, do your own thing for Savvy. Um, and, and I think, uh, I think, I think this is like similar to Gogo Pool's experience of this, you know, it's a launch. It's just the beginning. We're just getting started. We're looking at things at a six year, at a six year schedule of missions. And, and for us, it's about becoming the next blue chip. Same thing with Gogo pool, same thing with landslide. We're thinking about the long, long-term and not just the immediate short-term of these next three days. But with that, I'll also say like, yo, shout out to balancer. Like mm-hmm. You guys are OGs in this space still coming out and doing phenomenal research, and you guys also build stuff that lasts in ways that you didn't even anticipate or aren't even supporting anymore, and people are still building on top of it. So, uh, um, I'm super excited to have you guys on, on Avalanche and, and also just appreciate how you guys continue to build dope shit and still get people really excited and, and still add a lot to the community. I think, I think we're three protocols that like, hope to be in the same space, uh, a few years down the road. So, so thank you for that word. I, I would echo every single thing. Uh, thanks for saying that, Alex. Uh, I, I feel the same way. Uh, thank you balancer. You know, all hail balancer. I have thought so much about balancer for the last like year. It's, it's hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. All hail. All right, folks, we're, we're coming up at around the hour mark here, um, and we've been doing a lot of balancer fanning out too, which is lovely. I love this space so much. I'm gonna open everything up for closing remarks, you know, if there's anything that you'd like to share, anything you'd like to talk about, um, just kind of open forum. Start off with my friend Solar Curve here. Yeah, I definitely feeling the love, uh, looking forward to getting to know Yeah. The avalanche ecosystem more, and I think we've already had a really warm reception. Absolutely. And I, you know, I see the energy, we saw the energy in our discord after we launched. We had a, a bunch of new users and, you know, that was a direct, uh, result of, you know, tapping into a brand new ecosystem. So, uh, it's very exciting, you know, you know, I'm glad to hear that you guys love bouncer, like I've been loving bouncer for a long time and it's always great to hear that other people share that. So, yeah. Definitely excited and so far things have been going great, so we're super excited. Yes, man. Really, really love what you guys have been doing for the L s T space. Excited to see, you know, where things kind of go from there as well. Right. You guys have started off with a bang. Let's see, like what happens, you know, the next three, five years, like, uh, like Alex was saying, now next up on the closing remarks list. Let's go with my friend Alex. Actually, well, I already, I already kind of gave my closing remarks, but I'll just, I'll just say this. Uh, you know, it's first Abby, it's been a long time to, to, to get here for these last, uh, for, for this liquidity booting pool. And there's a lot of people I'd like to thank. There's a huge laundry list, but special shout out to, to revy, to, um, to, to Nathan, to landslide, to balance her, obviously to my friend, I D M. Um, it is actually my, my birthday today. And, uh, somebody asked me like, like, like kind of what is, what I'm happy about, what I enjoy, and, and truthfully the fact that like, even on my birthday, I'm still doing this shit and I'm excited about it. It's, uh, it's a pretty special place in a, in a, in a, in a, in like a pretty unique situation. So, so I appreciate you guys having me on my birthday. I appreciate you balancer and uh, re and Nathan, looking forward to doing many more of these with you guys. I, I also noticed that there is another lumley in the audience there is that, uh, one of the Lumley family. No, this is you guys. You, you, you, you guys, you guys are getting a chance to meet the next great, uh, defi. DGen. He is getting onboarded by yours truly. He's a retired electrical engineer and he like is trying to figure out how to hell to use all these things and he made a fricking flow chart of how to go from Kraken to Trader Joe and make the market. And he is like, why do all these things have to happen? I go, dad, it's great question. I'll get back to you in four years on that. So, um, but yes, that, that, that is my father. So, dude, that is awesome. Well, welcome to the space, Paul Lumley. We love, we love to have you, man. That's, uh, your son's pretty, pretty darn awesome, I must say. Um, now moving on to the closing remarks. You already know, we gotta talk to my friend Nathan, oh, oh, and don't also, nobody leave after Nathan goes my closing remarks. We're gonna start a love train from my friend Alex here. It's this dude's birthday. We're gonna go crazy, but Nathan, you got the floor, my friend. Happy birthday to Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Let's go. Let's go. Hey, hold on real quick. Hold on real quick for everyone out there. Everyone out there, I need you to hit the heart. I need you to hit the heart for my guy, Alex Lumley, coming in here on his birthday to share his love with all the avalanche folks and balance share. We need to see hearts in the chat right now. Everybody, this dude is here on his birthday and he is a Leo, y'all. He Leo people love Leo's. Yes, that is what I'm talking about, man. Hey Alex. Thank you so much for popping on today, my friend. Happy birthday. Let's go. Let's go. All right. All right. I'm gonna go ahead and close the space, man. Solar curve. Really, really appreciate you for popping on today, man, and talking to us about balancer. As you can see, you got a large amount of fans in the avalanche ecosystem. We love you folks out here and really appreciative of you, of you OGs coming onto the chain, my friend. You have been such a help to go-go pool and, and, and our mission of expanding the subnet economy and we're just excited to keep working with you folks for the future. Uh, Eric Forgi, we definitely have to talk my friend for sure. Uh, whenever you are ready. Actually, probably should have you on the avac ecosystem space, Eric, that would probably make the most sense. But I d m, thank you for sliding on as well. Landslide, you already know, man. Nathan, thank you, Alex again. Thank you. It was your birthday dude. That shit's crazy, man. You are online right now doing work and that is lovely man. Please take everybody, take note of that please. Please take note of that man. Um, but anyway, guys, what's my usual saying? Let's keep on going. Oh, we do this weekly every Wednesday at 3:00 PM e s t even though we've been doing it Thursdays lately, but we usually it's Wednesdays at 3:00 PM e s t, um, you know the place to be. That's with G G p savvy D and you know, a landslide baby. All righty. All right. You don't gotta go home, everybody, but you already know what I'm about to say. You gotta get up on outta here, y'all. Peace.