Bringing Multiswaps to Avalanche

GoGoPool, Landslide + Savvy Defi talked to Cavalre about how the'r bringing Multiswaps to Avalanche and their roadmap for the future.

Social Links:
GoGoPool Twitter: https://twitter.com/GoGoPool_
Savvy DeFi Twitter: https://twitter.com/SavvyDeFi
Landslide Twitter: https://twitter.com/CosmosAVAX

Transcript

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I would like to welcome everyone to the AVAX ecosystem space. My name is Brevi. I do both things with GoGoPool and I am joining, and just in case you didn't know what GoGoPool is, We are permissionless liquid staking protocol with the specific vision of expanding the subnet economy. And we do that through a myriad of different ways. And one of those ways is by helping validators lost to half cost and helping out with subnet infrastructure. I am joined here by my lovely co host. We have Nathan Windsor at the helm of landslide. They're bringing the cosmos to avalanche. Say what's up, my friend pushups. We're doing push ups. Let's go. We're doing multi swap with Cavalry. I'm stoked. Let's go. Push ups, baby. Push ups. All the crowd. Everybody in the crowd, I need you to do one push up right now real quick. Just drop down and give me one. Much love, man. Thank you so much for joining us today, Nathan. I am also joined here. Bye. A lovely, lovely, well, two lovely people from Calgary. We have Eric Borgie, as well as Julie, as well. How are you folks doing? Hey, hey, Bravey, thank you so much. We're excited to be here. What a, what a, what a way to pump up the crowd there. We're very excited. Hey, hey, everyone. Hope you guys are doing well today. Thanks for joining. Hey, really, really appreciate y'all. And yeah, you already know I'm going to, I got to come with a lot of hype, man, because Calvary is bringing multi swap to avalanche. Let me rephrase that has brought multi swap to avalanche. So make sure you go ahead and check them out. I'm going to be going ahead. And, uh, as we continue on, I'll go ahead and put a post up. So that way you guys can go ahead and check out cavalry for yourselves. Um, but let's go over the agenda for the day. Really quick. First thing we're going to do. We're going to go ahead and do a quick overview of Calvary. We're going to understand what like an AMM is, you know, just in case people out there don't really know what it is. We're going to talk about how Calvary rebalances portfolios. We're going to talk about Calvary's Three principles their mission features and benefits and then of course how all of that affects avalanche And then we'll open everything up for closing remarks from our lovely panel of speakers out there. Oh my goodness We just got our other lovely co host just got in the building here. It's savvy Defi we got alex lumley at the helm and just for you folks who don't know what savvy defy is they're doing Non liquidating lines of credit. That's right. Y'all non liquidating lines of credit. They go ahead Let me go ahead and get you folks on up here. Savvy D5, what's up, my friend? Hello, hello, good to speak to you guys. Hey, it's great to talk to you, my friend. I know that we've been banging out these AVAX ecosystem spaces, man, but it's been great to just, you know, be able to talk to my lovely co hosts, basically like every other day. laughs But really, really appreciate everyone for coming out. Shout out JCRB. I see you, baby. I see you, baby. Shout out kids. Sturgeon. I see you. I see you. Hidalgo. Welcome back, my friend. I love to see people coming back to the show. I hope that that means we're doing a pretty good job here. Um, and I hope that you guys continue to come back and that you're ready for the knowledge that we're about to drop today about Calvary, my friends. So. Just to get this thing kicked off, Eric, can you give people just a brief overview of what Calvary is and then go a little bit over the origin story of Calvary? How did you get inspired to create this amazing product? Yeah, sure. So, like, going back quite some time, I started life as a physicist, PhD, UIUC, doing computational physics and some hardcore stuff like that. Then, like several other mathematicians and physicists, I heeded the call to Wall Street. So like, I've, I've been kind of like a Wall Street quant for, for, uh, quite a while now. Like I, I started as a Wall Street quant, but then like, you know, global financial crisis hit a lot of fun working in finance at that time, kind of bounce around Wall Street and got into traditional asset management, uh, both kind of traditional asset management and then some quant hedge funds. And then, uh, through some, almost by accident, I landed in insurance of, for a couple of years. And like, one, one of the things we always say at Calvary is like Trad5 is broken. You know, and like, I, I was looking back at, uh, there was, uh, Avalanche Creates event in Berkeley. I think it was back in December around then. And, uh, you know, so I got a video up. So if anybody's interested in hearing on why I think TradFi is broken, that could be a, like a whole other call. So I don't want to get too deep into that, but there's a video on the Avalabs, uh, uh, YouTube channel from the Avalanche Creates. And, but basically TradFi is broken and, you know, blockchain is the solution. And so like I got into insurance and of all the financial services out there, there's no. There's no financial service that's more broken than insurance. So Calvary's Calvary roots are kind of in insurance and reinsurance. In fact, the re in the word Calvary itself is means reinsurance. So we started out kind of like doing securitization of insurance risks, which is kind of like one of the most complex corners of the capital markets. And like, it's, it's. It's completely obvious, like if you're doing this on blockchain, then the securitization means tokenization. So you're tokenizing, uh, real world assets or off chain assets, uh, and to do that for like something like reinsurance, it's not quite. Straightforward, you know, like there's a lot of primitives you need insurances in the fixed income asset class. So like fixed income means like bonds and future cash flows and contingent future cash flows and yield curves and all that fun stuff from the capital markets. And to do that properly on chain, you just need these primitives. And when I looked out, I just didn't see. The primitives that needed to do real capital market stuff on chain. So, so the, kind of the origin story of Calvary is like building these primitives that we need to do real kind of grownup capital market stuff, where you're talking about trillions of dollars of daily activity, you know, trillions of dollars of. TVL, you know, that kind of stuff is coming. So like, it's kind of fun to think about that. We're just, we're so early in the game that we're just getting started with, uh, on chain capital markets. But that's, that's kind of like in a nutshell where Calvary is coming from. The first product that we launched is just really the first in a series of exciting. A very exciting roadmap that involves all those things, like right now, multi swap the product we just released is for spot markets, but then we're going to get into futures markets. We're going to get into derivatives and, and all these are primitives that like, if you kind of layer them together, the beautiful thing about DeFi is composability. So once you start composing these DeFi primitives together, yeah, you can start building some, some beautiful, purely native on chain, uh, capital markets stuff. So yeah, spot market, spot market multi swap is the first of many. That's, that's where it came from. That's where we're headed. And yeah, it's exciting to actually be launched. You know, like we, I've been in a couple of spaces and I feel, I feel like a hoser. Like I'm, I'm kind of like a fake, uh, I just, this guy talking, but like, at least now we got something deployed. So I feel like, okay, maybe I might, I might get an actual seat at the table now that we actually launched something. Exciting. So there's like a bunch of different ways that we can go, um, with, with what you were saying. And, um, one, one thing that I'm very, very curious about is, you know, I know you said that you want to get, you don't want to get too deep in the weeds, but I do got to ask you, why do you, why do you believe TradFi is broken? Well, I mean, I mean, look at, look, it's working. I think it's just working fine for everybody who's, you know, I think it's a feature, not a bug. Don't you think? I mean, I think it's supposed to launder money. Yeah, if you, if you want to launder money, that's, that's a, that's a good way to do it. If you want to, you know, all that, uh, hidden centralization is great for that activity. Like blockchain is totally transparent. It's a lot harder to do that kind of stuff on chain, but I know more seriously, like, yeah, I think you look at the market. Like, I don't, like I said, I don't want to repeat everything I said in that Avalanche Creates video. Go, go check it out. But yeah, I mean the first block mined on the Bitcoin network, what did it say? It said, you know, second round of bailout for the banks. It's a protest against financial system and all the bailouts that go into it. So yeah, I mean, if you work in finance, finance is great because you're milking everybody else who doesn't work in finance. So basically, yeah, the Fed's printing money to kind of bail out the banks who should have died anyway. One of the things I said in the Berkeley event was, you know, If Goldman Sachs dies tomorrow and we have blockchain, who really cares? Like, back in 2008, if, if these big, uh, banks failed, maybe they would have been pretty bad for the world. But now we have an alternative with blockchain. So like, all these things, all these guys can and should fail because, you know, we have an alternative. We shouldn't be bailing out these banks anymore. So that, that's one big reason. It's just, uh, you know, I just hate seeing that because that just creates, uh, inflation. It hurts everybody. It hurts my family, probably hurts your family. You know, and it's great for the, the CEOs of these banks are making record profits and, you know, record bonuses where, why everybody else is kind of struggling. So that's one big reason that TriadFi is broken. Another is just legacy technology. I mean, like, people are still trying to find, like, Cobalt programmers so they can maintain the systems. It's like, who's going to update this Cobalt program that was written 30 years ago? You know, so just, you know, traditional legacy technology is broken. And, you know, another thing is, like, they're making so much money that there's no real reason for them to even want to change. Like, if you're a traditional financial institution, why would you change? You're printing money. With horrible technology, with horrible services. So why would you change? There's really no motivation to change. So it just has to be rebuilt from scratch and more of a grassroots. Way. And so that, that's like, that's, that's where I am. That's where my head is at. Like, I don't, nobody's ever going to bail out Calvary. Okay. Like it's a smart contract. It's going to be working through good times. It's going to be working through bad times. And just like we see, like with a lot of banks that failed recently, DeFi protocols come along just exactly as they intended, right? That that's, that's the way the world should work. Now I'm, I'm also curious cause, uh, I know you had said something about like insurance and like reinsurance earlier. Can you go a little bit into detail about that? Like what is reinsurance and how do you kind of securitize this? Uh, I think it's securitizing the risk of insurance, something like that. Uh huh. Help, help me out, help me out. Yeah, sure. This, this is a little complicated. Like, like during the financial crisis, one of the things that kind of blew up was, was something called a mortgage backed securities. So they're taking a bunch of loans. like pretty poor quality loans, and then they pull it together into a pool of loans. And now the idea of like pulling stuff together is that like, Oh, if one of these loans fails to pay a payment, then not all of them are going to fail. So like, there's going to be some cash flows going into the pool, even if some of them are poor credit. And so because we know that some of the cash flow is going into the pool, if we trench these cash flows together, Then we can kind of combine bad securities and create a good security by kind of siphoning off that top level of cash flow. I know that's a little complicated for people who might not be so familiar with like some of these financial instruments and stuff, but that was kind of like what broke the back of the financial system back in the global financial crisis. Like people were just like shoving crappy mortgages into a pool and then creating AAA securities from the top tranche of the cash flows and then selling those to pension funds. Uh, because pension funds were starving for yields and then, uh, they get the yield, but then they end up blowing up. So now a lot of pension funds went under because, uh, because of these kind of crazy securities. So like, but the concept itself, like that, that kind of happened because people went crazy. Whenever there's a good idea, people tend to go overboard with it. So like they were making mortgage backed securities of mortgage backed securities or CDO squared or, or these, these kinds of things where you kind of take these monstrosities, Pull them together and make new monstrosities out of old monstrosities. And, you know, DeFi is not immune to that problem. I think we're already kind of seeing that kind of stuff happening, even in DeFi already. You know, so like people will want to make money and people want to boost yields, but all that means is you're adding leverage to the system and leverage is just not good for, for anybody. So, so like in, when it comes to insurance, insurance is similar. Like if you think about it, it generates a lot of cash flows. Like if an insurance company, they sell a lot of insurance policies. Each policy, you're going to be making premium payments for like regular premium payments. So you have cash flows going into the insurance company. So, you know, as a quant from Wall Street myself, when I got into insurance and I saw all these cash flows flowing into the company, I said like, why are we not securitizing these cash flows? Because You know, the best way to manage your risk is to get it off your balance sheet, you know, that's that works great for loans, like a mortgage companies, uh, you know, it's actually great to replenish your balance sheet by securitizing this stuff, at least in a sane way with the pass through, there's certain safe ways to do that, and the way we want to do it is also a safe way to do that, we're not going to like it. Create securitizations of securitizations of securitizations. That's a little nonsense, but like straight pass throughs are pretty clean. So like, if you take these cash flows from insurance premiums, create a security out of that, and then you transfer that to the capital markets. Then you basically transferred risk from an insurance company to the capital markets where the capital markets wants the risk, you know, they can handle the risk. And so like, that's just a very clean and efficient way to manage an insurance balance sheet is to securitize the risk. And there's examples of that today, like in the form of catastrophe bonds, you might've heard something called cat bonds. These are like reinsurance instruments where like a government, like in the Philippines, for example, they might be susceptible to typhoons. So like they'll get a, they'll issue a bond where, you know, if there's no typhoon, then people earn interest on this bond. But if there's a typhoon, then the payment will come out of the notional of that bond. And so like, I've been kind of on a mission to bring that model of securitizing insurance risks to all insurance. Uh, not just catastrophe bonds, but like, I think every form of insurance can in some way be securitized. And that was kind of like the, the mission for what I call Calvary 1. 0, like Calvary 1. 0 was going to build that. And then, then I started getting into DeFi and like I said, Calvary kind of like a, a shift to building the primitives that will ultimately make that possible on chain, but we just don't have the primitives yet to make that reality natively, at least on, on chain. Like you can do that kind of a hybrid. I hear you talking a lot about insurance, but, but, but, uh, but Cavalry seems to be focused on multi swap assets. Yep. So the orange origin story is like, we, that's where our North star, that's where we're going, but like to do that, we don't have the primitives. So multi swap is the very first primitive that will enable that North star for us. So multi swap is focused on spot markets. Like you can't really do contingent future cashflow. That word itself is quite loaded contingent. Cash, future cashflow contingent means, you know, it may or may not happen. Like there's some cashflow that may or may not happen in the future. Future obviously just means like it's happening in the future. You don't know when it might happen, but it's happening sometime in the future. And then a cashflow just means kind of spot market. So like, how do you. Model contingent future cashflow in a blockchain native way. And that's what we're building. And the first thing you need for that is a spot market. So multi stop is really, you know, I didn't, I didn't wake up, but we, but we have a lot of spot markets already out there. So what, what in particular is the, yeah. Well, we, we do, but I was already, I would argue that actually we don't, so like, I would say like, so right now, I don't even think we're doing swaps correctly, so like, like, I don't even think that you can do it, but the issue is that we are already doing swaps, right? So what's the. Like what, you know, Uniswap is the massive player, right? So why, but even if people are taking impermanent loss and no one's making any money, it's that that's still where they're swapping that there and on, on centralized exchanges. But what you just said is exactly the reason why Uniswap is broken. I mean, you just said LPs are not making money. Like why are they not making money? But everyone thinks that it works. Yeah, but it doesn't. So like we, we need a better solution. So. We're not going to build the future of capital markets on a Uniswap. I'm sorry, Uniswap. I mean, I love Uniswap. I love Hayden Adams, the whole story. I wouldn't be here without Uniswap. I wouldn't be here without Balancer, but these guys are just not. Sufficient for building actually true grown up capital markets where multi swap is like multi swap was designed to handle true scalable trillion dollar capital markets. You're not going to put a trillion dollars of TVL into a Uniswap pool because that's just going to get splintered. Like think about, you know, wrapped Ethereum is in over 400 pools and that's growing. So that's just, you know, I used to say fragmented liquidity, but like with the UFE4 and stuff like that, I don't even say fragmented liquidity anymore because it's just splintered. So, so with these kind of two token pools, et cetera, liquidity just gets splintered to the point where it's not even useful anymore. So yeah, you can swap, but like the, it's just not efficient. There's no, you know, you, the LPs are getting hit with impermanent loss. You know, so, so these are stuff that need to be solved in order for true capital markets to be born. And that's like where multi swap comes in, because we solve these problems. And in Trapify, there's, and I'm going to ask this very... Do you want to, do you want to dive into it and how it's related to the self financing, uh, primitive? There you go. Yeah, so, so I think like self financing is kind of like an obvious thing. Like it's not really even very... Special to talk about self financing. Like the black shows, the derivation of black shows. Like that's one of the steps. I don't even know if they mentioned it because it's just so obvious because there's a, there's a big overlap between what Savvy is doing. Okay. It could be, I'm not so familiar with what Savvy is doing. Honestly. Like I had this idea coming from a trad side background and then I've just been so heads down building multi swap. So that's one thing like, like I want to talk to you guys. I want to talk to Savvy. I want to definitely like talk with Nathan. It's long, long, long overdue. We've been like trying to get something going on through DMs for a long time. So like, now that we've launched, like I definitely want to start talking to, to different protocols about this, but like everything is in a way is self financing. It just means how is it self financing and what does that even mean? What it means is like value is not created or destroyed. So, so in a nutshell, it's almost like a physics law, whatever value you're putting into a pool should equal to the value coming out of the pool. And that's a very basic concept. I would say, like, some of these other, like, the way people handle fees, that kind of breaks it a little bit. The way Uniswap handles fees, the way Balancer handles fees, they kind of break that a little bit, but the basic premise is all the same. And you, we can actually derive Balancer. It's kind of funny, I did this recently. If you take the limit of, like, let's say you have a 10 of op swap or something, and then you want to kind of split it up into infinitesimal little swaps, And then kind of like add up those like infinitesimal little swaps, you can actually direct that would actually be equivalent to balancer. So we, we can derive balancer from Uniswap by chopping a swaps up into little tiny pieces and then integrating them back up. Again, which is actually pretty interesting. So like all these guys, they're doing the math, right? But like, I would say like, what's more important than the self financing? And this is something that I started focusing on recently is, is it's not so much about self financing. It's more about how you treat time. And how, you know, I, I did my PhD in, in something called discrete differential geometry, which didn't even exist at the time. So, like, it's almost like I created a new branch of mathematics during my PhD because I wasn't very happy with the way numerical methods work. Like, numerical analysis seemed very... Kind of arbitrary to me. It wasn't scientific. You have to make certain decisions at different points. And when you're building a compute, uh, computational simulation, some physical process, and it seemed like there should be some right way. There should be some true way to do so. So I've been working on some kind of kind of hardcore deep foundational stuff on building discrete mathematics. And so the key differentiator between say like a balancer and multiswap, I would say multiswap is a cousin, close cousin of, of, of balancer. But the key difference is the way we treat time. Like balancer assumes like time is a continuum, like between trades, there's like an infinitesimal time you can actually break things up into smaller things and, you know, trades actually happen on a continuum, like you're actually integrating infinitesimally small, but we're, we're actually based on discrete time, so like we assume like blockchain is discrete. There's a state. It's a state machine. You have state transitions in state. And for us, time is measured by that, like by the transitions that happen on the AMM. So really, this is a little technical. It's quite technical. And I don't know if we should spend too much time on it. Because like, I can imagine people's eyes glossing over. But like, it really comes down to how you handle time and, and trades. And like, So multiswap is based on discrete time. So like the trace happened discreetly and that is actually, it sounds like a trivial difference, but it's actually quite, uh, it's, it's quite fundamental and it really does lead to the difference. Like if you, if you treat time continuously, then you're stuck with like an eight token pool. Because the way the mathematics work out, like you have this like one hundredth, if you try to do a hundred token pool on balance, you're going to take like a hundredth square root or something. Hey Eric, question, uh, Eric, uh, we, we met previously at the Avalanche, uh, at the Avalanche Creates event. Uh, first of all, major shout out to that event. You did, you did an awesome talk at the event. And honestly, I went back and watched the talk again and it still holds up super well, so. So, so shout out to Avalanche for, for, for hosting an awesome event. And I believe we also, side note, we met Kitsch Sturgeon there. But, um, one of the things, um, Multiswap is, is very, very, um, like GigaBrain for me, to be honest. So for me as a potential user, uh, like a, like a DeFi, DGEM, but a little bit more of a newbie, and I don't have the Trad5 background. What is, what is, mm-hmm. why would I use Multis Swap today? Yeah. So it depends. So there's two users. So one as a user, as a lp, so as I, I can kind of answer in two ways. One is an LP as if you want to like LP then, and that means you're earning interest, you're as an lp, what do you get as an lp? You get exposure to the underlying assets. So right now, the pool we have, we have 10 underlying assets. It's a mix. We call it like, uh, with Brevi, I was joking. We call it Switzerland pool because it's not for maxis. If you're maxi, then you don't want to be in our pool because we have a mix of everything. We have a, we have Raptor Vox, obviously native, uh, Raptor Vox, but then we also have Bridged Raptor Ethereum. We have Bridged Rap, uh, Bitcoin. You know, we have, uh, we have, and then we have different versions of those. So like we have like native, uh, we have the bridge version of wrap BTC from Ethereum. We have BTCB. So you could swap against those two. There could be ARBs in the prices between the two versions of, of, of the Bitcoin. So like by buying the LP token, you, it's like getting shares of an, a crypto ETF. Like, we hear stuff like, oh, we need an Ethereum, like, we need a Bitcoin ETF, or we need a, we already have it. Multiswap is a Bitcoin ETF already, like you can go get exposure to a Bitcoin ETF today through Multiswap. But it's not just Bitcoin, it's a mix of Bitcoin, Wrapped Evox, and Wrapped Ethereum. So as an LP, why would you do it? If you want that kind of exposure, and who would want that kind of exposure? I would say like noobs, probably family offices. If you have a treasury, if you're managing a treasury, this is a great tool for treasury management. Like if you have cash sitting in a bank, this would actually be a great alternative just to get exposure to this. Uh, then the LP token itself can be used in other protocols as collateral and stuff like that. So, so as an LP, you get that exposure, but then it's, it's a rebalancing exposure, which if you, in TradFi, if you wanted to hire an asset manager to give you a rebalancing exposure to like an index, you'd have to pay them fees. In fact, there are some protocols out there. We actually have to pay fees to get that exposure. With multi swap, you're not paying fees. You're actually receiving fees to get that exposure. So it's like, it's like as an LP, you get fees from, you get the exposure that you probably want anyway, without having to rebalance yourself, but then you also get fees on top of that instead of paying fees, you're, you're earning fees. So, so that's why it's good to be an LP. I can pause there and then go into the trader. If you have a question on the LP. Let's kind of keep going with like the LP and then we can go down to the LP and recently I've been using like Bunny and Trader Joe a lot, right? So as like Bunny and which is built off of Uniswap, um, and those two, it's Like some of the major issues are impermanent loss or like active management. Right. But you obviously get the benefits of, of like, um, you can be more precise on trader Joe and, and, and like, and like it has a more user friendly experience, but on Uniswap it's, it's a little bit less active management. So where does, where's multi call fit or multi swap fit into this compared to, to bunny Uniswap, um, trader Joe, et cetera. Like I said, I've just been so heads down building a multi swap and the Calvary that sadly I, I've never used like Bunny and like Trader Joe. I would say like, you know, I'm super impressed by Trader Joe's liquidity book. I think that's a beautiful innovation, you know, so like, I'm very excited to see all the innovation happening on Trader Joe, but like, I'm not super familiar with it, so I can't really make. Uh, a comparison per se, but like what I, what I can say is, and this is getting a little giga brain too, is like, you know, because of the, this kind of continuum thing, like with Uniswap and most, any constant product market maker and including geometric mean market makers, which Balancer is, all of these, you know, when you assume time is continuous and you break swaps into infinitesimal little swaps, and then you integrate them back, what happens? It's the actual effective price you pay for your swap includes a contribution to the pre trade price. So, so what I, the way I describe multi swap is like an admin is basically a price machine, right? It's like a, it's a machine that produces prices. Sorry, I, I, I'll jump in. Eric, I guess what he's saying is, why should we use, why should we LP in multi swap versus any other exists? Like, can you break it down just in simple numbers? Yeah, I'll try. I mean, the answer is there's no impermanent loss on a single trade. So you're going to experience a lot less and probably no impermanent loss. But like you have to qualify that a little bit because impermanent loss is comparing to a HODL. So like if you compare like your LP token wealth versus a HODL, then, uh, you know, that's what people typically refer to as impermanent loss. That is true for us for a single, like if you provide liquidity, and then the next transaction that happens. The value of your LP wealth, exactly, precisely. Follows the value of what the whole HODL will be. So that means for that first transaction, there's zero impermanent loss. But I don't want to say there's zero impermanent loss because it's only for that first transaction. But then after that, now you're talking about two different investment strategies, right? Every portfolio has a benchmark. So impermanent loss, you're saying the benchmark is HODL. But like the better benchmark for multiswap and this is like a paper that came out of Columbia University a couple months ago is look at what's called loss versus rebalancing. So you look at the LP wealth versus a hypothetically perfect rebalancing portfolio and for that I can say we have like near perfect, uh, rebalancing. So we have near, near zero loss versus rebalancing, uh, even for, for the, um, for, for the multi token pool for multiswap. So, um, how, how do you incentivize like the pool, the LP providers to, to that create the pool composition? Well, so, so right now we just have one pool. So like the, the mechanism for how we're gonna allow permissionless, uh, token listings and permissionless creation of pools is still something we're gonna work out. It is coming, but like, we're just so focused on, on getting to market with the current pool. So right now the way it works is we just have this 10 tokens and those, those 10 tokens are fixed forever. Basically, the pools are immutable. Right, right. What I mean is, those 10 tokens, how do you incentivize people to stake those 10 tokens in the multiswap? Yeah, so, so one, like, we don't have a token at the moment. You know, when you talk about subnets, we can talk about that later, like, there could be something. But, uh, you know, we don't have a token right now, so there's no incentive in that traditional regard. But, like, I, to me, like, the biggest incentive is just a better product. Like, Do you want exposure to these 10 tokens? If yes, you LP. If no, then I'm sorry. I'm asking you how you incentivize people to make the pool composition. Like you can't buy access to the pool if the pool doesn't exist. So how do you create the pool? Oh, well, that's some at the moment. That's that is, uh, it's not permissionless. So like we could like today spin up a second pool, but that would be us doing it, you know, so it's not so like right now, like we were talking like, especially on this call, like with brevi and go go pool, like, we'd love to start talking with these guys about creating like a liquid staking token pool. I don't make 100 percent sense like we create one pool with all the liquid staking tokens in there and then, you know, we can, we can start thinking about creating many pools and there's all kinds of exciting ideas we can think about doing with multi swap now that we launched, but like the focus so far has just been launching and now that it's done, now we're having these calls and having these awesome conversations and looking for partnerships. So basically, if, if anybody has a good idea for a pool and wants to partner with, with. With us on Multis Swap, we'd love to talk to you. Like, uh, we'd, we'd love to set up the liquid sticking pool. You know, all we can think of all kinds. I think one thing that's very exciting is talking to partners about creating custom pools, and that's something we're looking forward to, avac ecosystem space. My point here was I'm glad having the calls and we're, we're totally help down to help, but especially from the Gga back side. But, um, My question is really like around incentives, like, because everyone's already incentivized and already leveraged to the hilt. So what's, how do you intend on like getting more dye in the multi swap pool? Yeah, well, I think for, for one, it's like if you, if you go to the pool and you say, Oh, I can, I can, uh, I can sell dye into the pool for this certain attractive price. Why would you not? So it the, the, the kind of, because people already get good returns in dye somewhere else. That's my, that's my point here. Uhhuh, Uhhuh, So if you're, I think Nathan's more so asking about like the, like your incentivization structure. Like, so I'm wondering incentive is. And, and how you're going to bootstrap that pool. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's a challenge. I mean, right now we're, we're, we're at the cold start. You know, we have to get over this cold start problem. Like right now, I think, I think the best, the best argument is just, it's a good product. So like, we're talking to people now and like by the end of this week, we will have more liquidity from people who are just like looking at this as a good, uh, treasury management tool. You know, it's like, I don't know, like traditionally you try to create some incentive program or something, but for us, I don't even know if it's needed because it's just a good product, you know? So like, I think having a good product is, is attracted to LPs who have a treasury to manage, you know, if you, if you aren't like a maxi and if you don't know how to trade, then this is just a very simple way to, to get broad exposure to crypto market. But then that's not all. So like, that's not definitely not the only thing like to, like you get that, but then the fees we already talked about, you get the, you get the exposure plus the fees. So that's part of being a good product, but then there's something else like we can incentivize our incentives are not really kind of traditional defy type of incentives. Our incentives are more like. Uh, Coinbase or, or Binance, like if you have a certain amount of liquidity, then, uh, one thing is special about multi swap, which I don't think I've talked about too much is we have the ability to give on a per user basis at the protocol level, we can give discounts on transaction fees. So like if you, if you provide a certain amount of liquidity, or if you're doing a certain amount of transaction volume, we can just turn your fees off completely. You know, so like that, that's another kind of passive, it's, it's not quite as sexy or exciting as some of the traditional type of, uh, DeFi, DeGen type of incentives, but I think for us, the focus, just building a good product that is kind of organic in nature. We don't want to create a lot of like short term incentives because those go away. Right. And then if, if it goes away and the people get, get disappointed, I'd rather start slow and like get, you know, get people excited about just having organically good. DeFi products that can scale. So like, I don't know, that's probably not a very satisfying answer, but that's kind of the truth. Eric, those, those, um, fees that people are paying, like, let's say the swap within the pool, are those fees going back to liquidity providers? Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's a, there's a small, there's a portion of the fee that goes to the protocol. So we do have like a protocol fee and that's to pay our bills and stuff like that. And we can reduce that fee to zero at some point. The max is, the max we can take is 50 percent of the fee, but it's reducible. So like, so we have a protocol fee, but yeah, the, at minimum 50 percent of the fee goes to liquidity providers. That's where they earn, that's, that's where they earn the yield. That's where they earn the, that's where they get the boost above the, uh, rebalancing exposure is, uh, the LPs get the transaction fees. Yeah. Got you, got you. And, uh, I see Roman, uh, just got put up and he's got a question. Uh, you go ahead with your question, Roman. Hey, um, well first of all, it's always good to, uh, speak to my homies. Go-go pool and, and Nathan from Landslide. How are you guys? Glad to see you guys are, you know, killing it with the spaces, uh, growing, so really excited for that. And, um, Eric, it's always good listening to you talk. You're one of the smartest people I know in DeFi. Um, and I really appreciate what you're building. I actually think it's very novel and interesting. Um, I do have a couple of questions. So, um, and I'm going to keep it very, like, like, high level questions because I don't want to get in the weeds, but there's a couple of things that, um, you know, these automated markets kind of, uh, make make, uh, revenue on and create value. One of them is tapping into aggregators or meta aggregators as there are price discrepancies or slippage between, you know, uh, different assets and different pools across different, uh, DEXs or money markets. And these aggregators are designed to Tap into the inefficiencies between the pools and arbitrage, um, through, you know, flash loans and other ways to essentially create price parity, um, across these assets. I think 1 of those things is going to be really important for, for your project to tap into. And I was curious what your thoughts are on that and how you plan on kind of integrating because that is a gigantic source of revenue for all the other Dexes and markets out there. And I don't see about. Without it, you guys would fare well. And the 2nd, part of that question is, um, at a high level, how, how would you incentivize someone like myself? Who is a very active LPR and I'm very comfortable with impermanent loss because effectively it allows me to dollar cost. Um, if you look at it in a different way, and permanent loss is really just me dollar cost averaging in and out of a position on any particular asset. Um, so just as a curious, uh, effect, like, how would you entice me to, let's say, leave some ridiculous, you know, APY, um, degen yields or even nominal yields and, you know, double digits beating kind of like, um, you know, treasury bonds and things like that. So I'm just, just kind of curious on your take on those two things. Yeah, sure. So absolutely, a hundred percent, we definitely want to integrate with the aggregators. I think right now, like last time I, it's kind of funny. I was excited to see like DeFi Llama already got us, uh, we're already on DeFi Llama. So you can see our TVL, but it's still tiny. Like, I think like we launched with some of our own funds, which, you know, wasn't massive because we don't have a token. So like we launched with, I'd say about 15, 000 U. S. Yeah. Which is. Tiny TVL now we're like, we're around 21, 000. So like right now, if we, if we were to go on an aggregator now, it probably might not make so much sense just because there's, there's significant price impact until we get some, some, uh, liquidity on there. So our focus right now is not so much aggregators right now. Our focus right now is getting some TVL on there with the idea that like, once we get some, then, uh, then, you know. That that boost that we're going to get from the aggregators will help right now. Like if the price impact would just be a little too, uh, severe to, to be on the aggregators now, cause we probably won't show up, uh, anyway, cause, uh, unless for very tiny trades probably, but, uh, you know, once it gets, I think by the end of this week, we're working with some partners. So by the end of this week, we'll have enough liquidity that it would make sense to get on an aggregator. And a lot of like a lot of these aggregators quite easy to integrate. So yeah, we'll, we'll be on that for sure. Just, just not right now. It's probably like in the, in the coming weeks. We'll, we'll be on the aggregators. And then, and then as far as like impermanent loss, if, if you're happy with Impermanent loss, then uh, I, the, the Good, good for you. But I, I don't know. I, I personally would not be happy with impermanent loss. So like, I think like as an LP with, uh, with Multis Swap, the, the key like kind of. I keep getting tempted to go into details, but it really comes down to this continuum versus discreet because like with, uh, with, uh, with, uh, kind of the AMMs out there today, you know, it's exclusive of liquidity book, which is kind of a very special thing, which I think is pretty cool. But, uh, you know, for, for true AMMs, I think of a liquidity book is not really an AMM. It's more like a very cool innovation on a club. So like, uh, you know, so like we can talk about AMMs versus clubs, but like in the, in the category of true AMMs, then, uh, you know, I think by having this kind of constant product market maker, for example, like I mentioned that the execution price you get is weighted towards, there's some non zero weight towards the pre trade price. So AMMs are price machines. So before you trade, there's a state of the AMM, which means that AMM has certain prices for each of the tokens. After you swap, there's a post trade state, which means post trade prices. So if you think of those two extremes, you have pre trade prices and you have post trade prices. And if you trade in a continuum manner, that means you're waiting. Say one half of the execution price to that pre trade price. And so if you wait the execution price to the pre trade price, as a trader, you'd love that, right? Like, I would love to trade on yesterday's prices. You know, so that's effectively what's happening with constant product market makers is you're allowing traders to trade pre trade prices at least 50 percent weight. And what that means is that LPs are subsidizing every single trade. So if you, if you execute at the pre trade price, then LPs are subsidizing every single trade. And that is the fundamental source of impermanent loss. And that's where multiswap differs because we execute at the post trade price, which means that the, the LP token value, exactly. It's kind of funny if you look at the formula for impermanent loss in some of these technical papers, and you look at the formula for how we do our liquidity curves, they're the same formula. So I didn't, I didn't even notice that until the other day. I was like, I was doing like a mathematical study of the impermanent loss for multiswap, and then I realized. Oh, the formula is exactly the same. So like, no wonder there's no impermanent loss because the formula we're using is the formula for impermanent loss. So, so we're going to write a blog article about that soon. I'll publish it soon, but you know, just the way the price movements and, and, you know, the way the AMM handles the execution price, it just mat, it just perfectly matches against that impermanent loss. So if you're happy with impermanent loss, then you'll probably be even more happy without impermanent loss. I think I would hope so. Well, like I know work with it. So for example, if I'm long on one asset and, uh, I see the price is going down, it would make sense for me to LP and basically dollar cost into it. Uh, and I'm the way. You know, I'm also earning fees on both sides of the trade. Uh, if this is right and the number does go up, in fact, then I basically have impermanent loss to the other side. So I get, you know, I lose more of that asset I was bullish on, but I still gain the fees on the trade up and I walk away with. Or whatever. So I think it's like impermanent loss isn't really loss. It's just a state, a state of where you are right now. But I do get your point. Yeah. I think if you're happy with that trade, then you'll be even happier without the impermanent loss. So like whatever trade you do with impermanent loss, if you do the same trade without impermanent loss, I think you'll be happier. I'll be, I'll be happy to talk to you see. I'd love to talk to you. I mean, I, I love, you know, I, you know, what little I know about what you guys are doing. It looks super cool. So, yeah, I mean, like I said, we're having these conversations. I'd love to have a conversation with you on the side or, or whatever. I'd love to learn more about what you're doing and find synergies between, between the two of us. I have a question and then, um, and then Andy, I brought you up. You can go right after that, my friend. What, uh, what specific user are you kind of focusing on? Like, what's your target market? Like, I know you're talking a lot about impermanent loss. Um, is that probably. Is that, does that matter more to, let's say like institutional level people, or can you talk a little bit about like your target market? Yeah, so I think if you go to our website, the calville. re, at the bottom we have kind of our slogan is built for institutions accessible to all. So that's the way we kind of feel about it. It's like, I'm being like, for me, I want to build like better financial services. I want to build better stock market. I think like at some point if we hit our stride, we can compete against the New York Stock Exchange. There's no reason, there's no fundamental reason we cannot compete against the New York Stock Exchange. In fact, our testnet, that's one thing that we had was we, we actually created a pool with over 500 tokens in it representing the S& P 500. It's a mockup. testnet. It's great. And so like, so like with that kind of trading, like you get 125, 000 trading pairs for free. So like we, we talked about like the LP side, but we didn't talk about why it's good for traders. And that's because there's zero fragmentation of liquidity. Like all the liquidity for any token is available for any trade against any other token. There's a zero fragmentation. So that's just a huge boost to capital efficiency. So yeah, on the LP side, you get exposure to the market, you get fees. But on the trading side, you get this, uh, what we call unified liquidity, which has absolutely zero fragmentation. Like on Uniswap, wrapped Ethereum is splintered across hundreds of pools. You know, with us, all that wrapped Ethereum liquidity will just be available for every trade against every other token. So, like, it won't take us too long before we're even more efficient. With much less, with much less TVL, we'll be more efficient than, than, uh, you know, these other guys pretty soon. We'll be glad to help. Um, happy to chat offline about it. Yeah, I'd love to. And Andy, you have been waiting patiently, my friend. Thank you for that answer, Eric. And Andy, you've been waiting patiently, my friend. We've got the floor. I had a quick question for you around the subnets. Are you guys, are you building a subnet? We want to build a subnet. And that's the reason why we're building on Avalanche is because we got excited about the subnet. But, uh, like we're, we're, I wouldn't say we're building it yet. We want to, that's like, as soon as we launch, I was telling the dev rel team at, at Avalanche, as soon as we launch, I want to immediately start talking about the subnet story, because we do have some pretty interesting ideas about how to do a subnet in kind of a new way that kind of, I like to kind of spoil a little bit about the alpha that's coming is like when you stake liquidity for proof of stake, what if that was also available as liquidity for the pool? So we want to kind of start making the economics of the AMM align with the security and the consensus of the pool itself. So, so when you start talking about subnets, we can start thinking about how to do that, where, you know, the LP token is actually the native token of the subnet. So, so there's all kinds of cool stuff we can do with that. And Eric, you are in the, you're in the right place if you're talking about subnets. Google pools actually put that forward with GGAvex. Yeah, yeah, you're in the right place, my friend. Yeah, we should definitely, yeah, we should definitely fully talk that out because, you know, we definitely can help you out with your subnet, you know, helping you launch and, you know, you know, helping you out with any validator sourcing as well as, you know. Any sort of co marketing as well. So, AVAX SIPA Systems Space, the place where business deals happen. Yay! Yay! Right on, right on. Do you want to go over, um, like, do you want to go over rebalancing and how... Real real quick, Nathan, real real quick before you go on to that. Let me get Andy, uh, let me let Andy ask his question and then we can go on from there. Yeah, thanks, man. Uh, also that softball was right up there for you where he's like talking about all the subnets and everything You're like wait for it wait for it and smash it out of the park So yeah, he just teed you up for that one. But uh, no, I was just gonna ask about the actual site itself I know that earlier on in the beta. I hadn't had a chance to go back to it recently, but it said I was IP gated Obviously I go live in dead center of America Um, is that still the case or is that, you know, are we good now? Yeah, we're good now. Yeah, we're good now. I think like we, we want to be regulator friendly. Like I kind of want, I want to make this like S& P 500 thing a reality. And you can't really do that. Without embracing regulators at some point, because you can't really pretend that, you know, tokenizing Apple is not a security. Yeah, it's a security. So we, I think there, there are places where working with securities on chain actually makes sense. So, so we do want to be kind of regulatory friendly, but like, we're also a startup with limited resources. So like. I would rather take a little risk on this and give us a chance to survive than just die without even having a chance because we're too conservative. So we're kind of, we're kind of like a little in the gray area, but we're so small, but like, we definitely do want to start, you know, we're going to be talking to Say Vara in Dubai, we're going to be talking to, you know, MAS in Singapore. Like we, we definitely want to be licensed and have all this be a hundred percent legit, but right now we're just so small that putting those kinds of blockers, like our lawyer, we spend like way too much. I don't want to talk about how much, I don't want to think about how much money we spend on lawyers, but like, Oh, you can't do this in the U S you have to VPN block and you know, all this stuff. And, and we did like the first couple of days and we said, well, if we keep this up, we're just going to die anyway. So like. You know, let us have a chance and then we'll, we'll, we'll do things right. We're, I mean, we're, we put up a, like, if you check it out now, we actually have a bunch of user protections. So we're very strong on user protection right now. The TV is small. So like if you, if you do, if you try to do a big trade and you're, you're not paying attention, you're going to get hosed on the price. So, and that's just a fact. So like we put some user protections on there, like there's some red flags or yellow flags, if the price impact is too severe to kind of warn you that, you know, this, you, you might not want to do this trade right now because. The price impact is too big. And that's what regulators care about anyways, like user protection. And like, we want to protect the users too. So like we want to be proactive about being protecting the users and, you know, making sure people understand what, what they're doing and, and like, that's, that's all part of education and putting up kind of safety features and warning flags. Like if. If you see like a big red flag, you might not hit the confirm transaction, but you might dig in because like we kind of have it simple, like the defaults blade. We want it to be as simple and clean as possible, but like if there is something you need to pay attention to, we have like a little alert. And then if you click it, it'll show the details. And we do go a little hardcore in the details. So you can actually see like. What's all the moving pieces there? What's the pre trade price? What's the post trade price? What's the price impact? What's the value flowing in if you exclude price impact? What's the value flowing in if you include pricing? What is the value of the price? And all these things are probably more details than a lot of people care about, but we do include them in the drop down. So like if you go to our UI now. Uh, you know, one, you can actually access it, which is nice where you couldn't the first couple of days. So, so now we, we did the, those, uh, geo fencing out for now. And then, uh, you know, we, if we launch like a, a security pool, then we might have to put it back in. Because if we're, if we're doing securities in a pool that we know are securities and we, we, Are regulated, then, you know, there might be a point and that's where I've ever labs and avalanche comes into is like we can do a like a actual properly regulated pool, but not all pools have to be like that. So, like, so that's got a question for you, Eric, actually, because I know you're talking about, like, you know, the S and P 500. And you know, securities and whatnot. Have you heard of mirror protocol? I have, I think those are more synthetic in nature if I, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. And it was like their workaround for getting around that because you don't actually own like a piece of the asset. You, you just owned like the price action of the asset. Yeah, yeah, I think, so just to give you an idea of where we're headed with that and where we want to go, we want to go more like the Circle route, the way Circle does their stablecoins, you know, we want to have, like, if we issue, say, for example, an Apple stock on chain. Then we will have an Apple stock in custody off chain, just like for every USDC on chain, there's a dollar in custody at some financial institution controlled by a circle. So like we will be fully backed, like any kind of token we issue that's a security, it'll be fully backed by having that security off chain held in custody somewhere. So our model will be a little different. So like that, that kind of stuff will be, I don't think like these kind of tricks will get around the fact that we do need these to be securities. And I don't mind dealing with securities in my whole career. I dealt with securities. They're dealing with security. It's not bad. If you have a broker account, if you have a TD Ameritrade or something, you're dealing with security. So I think Americans and most people are fine trading securities. Just if those securities happen to be on chain in a separate subnet, then, uh, I don't see issues with that. I'm not going to hide from the regulators. Basically, I like that, but you're not going to hide from regulators. You're more so kind of leaning into it because at some point in time, we will have to make this look a little bit more like traditional finance in order to get, you know, more tried five folks onto into defy. Yeah, possibly. And then I think there's, there's going to be kind of coexistence. You're going to have like fully permissionless stuff happening, but then some of it will be like permissioned on a subnet, for example. And that's exactly why we're on Avalanche because it's perfect for that. Like we can have like cchain be fully permissionless and then, or we can have a permissionless subnet and then we can have a separate. Permission subnet for certain, you know, jurisdictions, et cetera. So like, for example, we work with MAS, we can have a Singapore subnet, or if you work with, uh, Dubai, we can have a UAE subnet, you know, these, these kind of things. And if you work with Landslide, you can have a Cosmos subnet. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm definitely excited to talk to you. with Nathan really quick. Um, so, so Eric, we're coming up. I think our audio might be off. Savvy, can you hear everything? I can hear you. Can you hear me? But Brevi, Brevi, I think is MIA. I don't know, I'm here, buddy. I can definitely hear Brevi and I, and I can hear Nathan and I can hear everyone on the call. He hears all. Alex, here's all, um, but yeah, Eric, we're coming up around the hour mark here. I do want to ask you about, you know, kind of your future roadmap. Um, can you talk a little bit about like your kind of next steps? Yeah, I mean, we launched this first beta pool, which is like, get us out there, you know, get people familiar with it, but that's not the end for us. I mean, that's really just the beginning. You know, we, like we had a little chat before, like, I'd love to set up like a liquid staking token pool with a GG of Vox in there as a Vox, you know, YY Vox. And so like, we, we can totally do that. So right now we want to work with partners, like partners to set up special pools with special features, et cetera. And so like, that would be pretty awesome too. To kind of do that would not be too difficult. There's some other lower hanging fruit that we can, for example, right now we have, uh, our beta pool is 10 tokens. And why did we do 10 tokens and a beta pool? It's because we wanted to kind of show that we could like we have on test net, like a pool with over 500 tokens. And the truth is there's no limit to how many tokens we can put in the pool. The only limit is the gas. The block gas limit of the pool of the chain itself, you know, there is no inherent limit. Like I've done tests with 10, 000 tokens in one pool. There's no limit, you know, it's totally fine. So like, you know, so like that's kind of the first pool we did was 10. We kind of wanted to show that we could do 10 because, you know, most of the protocols max out at say eight, you know, so like we can do 10, we can do 20, we can do 50. We have testing with 500. So that's. We did that pool just to show that, but like, it might make sense to have like a separate just stable coin pool. And then the LP token of that is going to be like a money market fund, like a money market ETF, you know, so that would be something I could launch tonight or tomorrow. It's very easy for us to launch like a separate pool like that. And then we can have, we can split out the volatile tokens, the native, the bridged and wrapped native tokens, uh, from other chains. We can put those into a separate pool themselves. So we kind of created this beta pool to kind of give people an idea of what. We can do and then like there's a couple low hanging fruit like create a couple separate pools. Uh, we don't want to go crazy because then we start fragmenting liquidity and this kind of like gets into the problem and I said we're solving if you have too many pools. So we want to kind of like keep a cap on how many pools there are out there but definitely strategic pools make sense. But like that's still talking about spot market and what I mentioned to do risk cap, risk transfer, reinsurance and all this stuff, you know, there's a whole road map. About that too. So like we want to get in, I'm a fixed income person. Like my, my whole career I was in fixed income. So like, we want to get fixed income on chains. That means like bonds. That means like yield curves. That means like futures markets. That means like our, like imagine like arbitraging six months of ox versus nine months of ox. That's going to happen, uh, with Calvary. So we're going to build these kinds of primitives that will let you arbor yield curve using, you know, AMM technology. And then, uh, you know, so futures, and then, like I said, contingent future cashflow, you can't do contingent future cashflows without derivatives. So we're going to get into derivatives and options too. Like with, with the way our pool works, like we can actually, one thing I like, there's so many things about the multi swap. That's pretty cool. We can't talk about everything, but like one thing that I will mention is that the weights can actually be dynamic. In fact, the first pool we launched on the, the, uh, test net, the Fuji test net had dynamic weights. So the weights don't even have to be fixed. And so that's a powerful degree of freedom that you can use to change the weights, which effectively means you're, you can embed a trading strategy into the pool. So if you can embed a trading strategy into the pool, then you can embed a hedging strategy into the pool. And if you can embed a hedging strategy into the pool, it means you can replicate derivatives. So, so we, we can, we can build pools that actually replicate derivative payoffs, just using the current technology with dynamic weights. And so we're just, all this stuff is just on the horizon and that's why I built multi swap is so we can get there. So talk about roadmap, like first there's some low hanging fruits. We can just do with spot markets. And, you know, we also want to talk to central banks and stuff about getting like, you know, FX markets. on chain using multi swap, like it doesn't make it would make what there's 188 different fiat currency. In principle, you can trade all 100 fiat currencies in one multi swap pool with no fragmentation or liquidity. So like, that's another kind of exciting partnership we'll look at is try how to do FX on chain, you know, so so that's, that's something, but then like, that's still a spot market. And then, you know, futures market is going to be super exciting, like getting fixed income. Getting bonds, being able to arbor the yield curve that that's all pretty, that's all coming. And I know there's some people working on that and it's all super cool, but I think we have something that's quite unique in that area. So like futures derivatives, and then these will all be, those are all, I would say primitives. So those three primitives are the key roadmap right now, but like once you have say the spot market and the futures. Those two primitives can be combined to create a new borrowing and lending protocol, an absolutely new kind that hasn't been seen before, type of borrowing lending protocol. So that's a pretty, also a pretty low hanging fruit that we can go after. So building these primitives is our roadmap, but then also starting to combine the primitives into different kinds of financial services. It's also what we're going to be working on. And right now we just launched. So now we're, we need to kind of strategize about what's, you know, the biggest bang for the buck for the, for the next thing to look at, but shortage of ideas is not a problem for us. We, we have so many, we have too many ideas. The challenge is to focus and execute. I love it, man. You know, like if you have a really, really heavy roadmap and a lot of different ideas for, you know, how to bring a more traditional finance world into the D five, uh, D five fine. Anyway, I'm, I'm having a hard time saying this anyway. Thank you so much, Eric, for, uh, popping on today. I'm going to open the space up for, uh, well, for one thing, actually, really quick, can you just tell people if I'm a user and I'd like to get involved with Calvary, uh, can you just tell them how they can get involved? Well, yeah, I mean, uh, you know, we're, we're pretty active on Twitter. I'm, I'm the, I think all crypto Twitter where we're unhealthy amount of time on Twitter or X, whatever you want to call it. So like, that's one way to find me, but we also have a pretty active discord. I mean, there's, it's, it's still pretty small by comparisons to others, but like we're, we're really intimate, like I'm on there all the time. So like we get people come in and asking questions. I'm super happy to walk people through questions. Uh, you know, especially if they're good, sincere questions. Like, uh, I'm happy to one on one kind of walk people through until they get it. And so like, yeah, our discord is good resource. We're not on Telegram yet because I think, uh, right now, like, I think discord kind of serves our purposes, but, uh, we, we might go on Telegram Sunday, but like right now, discord is good place to reach us directly. Our whole team is there. We, we do our internal communications and on discord actually. So like we were looking at Slack and we started on Slack and we said, well. Why do we have Slack and Discord? So, so we just, and then like doing our own internal stuff in private channels on Discord in the same server means we're close to the users too. So like, well, I always see anybody who pops in with, uh, you know, questions or issues or something. Lovely. Thank you so much for that, Eric. And, uh, so now we're going to open the space up just for some closing remarks from the, from the panel up here. I'm going to start off with, uh, Alex from, uh, Savvy DeFi. You got any closing remarks, anything you want to shill? Alex! Alex! Okay, Alex is, Alex is in my head. Alright, last slide. Nathan, do you got any closing remarks? Anything you want to show? GoGoPool, you guys are doing a great job. Looking forward to expanding out of Avalanche. Thank you, my friend. On the GoGoPool side of things, I would like to show Nathan, uh, the IBC client is officially done. So Nathan is going to be bringing the Cosmos over to Avalanche. Very excited to see with, uh, what Eric and Nathan talk about as well. I mean, like we were, me and, uh, Eric have already talked about like, uh, Ellis, uh, an avalanche LSD pool, uh, be very interesting to hear about like a, a native Cosmo asset pool on Calvary as well. That'd be pretty cool. Yeah, I've been, I've been following Eric. The, the, the, the, the white paper you guys wrote last year is brilliant. I think what you guys have is great. I'm really looking forward to help helping you guys build it. I think it's, it's totally awesome. Cool. Thank you so much. And, uh, Julie, you were, you were kind of quiet today, so I'm going to pick on you. You got any closing remarks? No, I just, I really appreciate everyone's time today, tuning in and be sure to check us out. It's beta B E T a. Dot Cavill C A V A L dot re is where our app is at. Make sure you check out the app, my friends. Make sure you provide some liquidity. NFA, NFA, NFA, please don't kill me. But, um, Eric, really, really appreciate you for popping on to the space today. And. Just letting everybody know out there in the audience really appreciate you guys for popping on as well And uh getting all the alpha that you just got you already know we do this thing weekly every wednesday at 3 p. m est So make sure you follow savvy defy gogopul landslide And of course you want to make sure you want to follow calvary to stay up to date on them and You guys already know what my usual saying is you don't have to go home But you gotta get a bone out of here y'all peace Cheers Awesome