20 - Aliza Shatzman
[00:00:00] we've changed the conversation and that's a very important thing.
Welcome to Life Leaps podcast. Hear inspiring stories of ordinary people who made extraordinary life changes, what drove them, what almost held them back. Insights for the rest of us considering life leaps big or small, because hearing someone else do it reminds us that we can too.
Happy Wednesday, everyone today. We're with Elisa. founder of the legal accountability project. So Elisa initially wanted to be a prosecutor, but when her first boss. A federally appointed judge started telling her he was more comfortable with her male law clerks. She realized she'd need to navigate an entirely different set of challenges.
Today, we'll hear how Elisa number one. Decided to come out about harassment at work, including through congressional testimony. Number two realized anti-discrimination laws didn't [00:01:00] cover her particular situation. And so she founded a nonprofit, the legal accountability project to help change that. And number three.
She now works to protect others in a way that no other organization's really doing. Elisa's writing on judicial accountability has been featured in the Harvard journal on legislation, Yale law and policy review. She's been in Ms. Magazine slate and much more. But today Elisa shares her leap, which was both deeply personal and professional into this world of advocacy.
So, okay, you went to law school, intended to be a prosecutor, and your life drastically changed at the beginning, really, of that process.
Before we even jump into that world, can you tell me why you went to law school? I went to law school because I wanted to be a reproductive rights litigator.
I've always had a strong sense of moral outrage, especially on injustices affecting women. So I went to law school [00:02:00] thinking that's what I wanted to do. Okay. And after law school, your first job was clerking with a judge, which for non-lawyer folks, i e, most of us blessedly, it's a very prestigious thing that a lot of lawyers do right after law school in their first year.
It's sort of like an extended training opportunity you can get where you're supposed to have this beautiful mentor relationship. You work for a judge, you help the judge decide her or his cases, and you did that
Where were you? in the DC area, right? Yes, DC Superior Courts. That is a local trial court in the District of Columbia.
and yeah, I mean, I decided to clerk because I thought I'd get a crash course in trial lawyer. Learning from the attorneys who appeared before the court. and when I was in law school at Wash U Law, the messaging, like you mentioned, uniformly positive, lifelong mentor mentee relationship,
So that's kind of the expectation I went in with, or at the very least, that it would be a good learning experience.
Yes. Okay. So [00:03:00] you started working for that judge and it sounded like almost right away. Things were not quite what you would hope they would be. So I started clerking in August of 2019, and unfortunately beginning just weeks into this clerkship, The judge began to kick me outta the courtroom and tell me that I made him uncomfortable and that he just felt more comfortable with my male co clerk.
He told me I was aggressive. Nasty that I had personality issues. The day I found out that I passed a DC bar exam. So big day in any young attorney's life, he called me into his chambers, got in my face and said, you're bossy. And I know bossy cuz my wife is bossy. And I just remember being devastated. I mean, this was my first legal job.
I was a couple months outta law school. This judge just seemed to be singling me out for mistreatment. I would cry in the courthouse bathroom every day. I cried myself to sleep at night. I wished I could be [00:04:00] reassigned to a different judge for the rest of the clerkship, which was scheduled to last a year.
My workplace in the DC courts did not even have an employee dispute resolution or E D R plan in place. Might have enabled me to be reassigned. I confided in some attorney mentors who advised me to stick it out,
So I tried to, we eventually transitioned to remote work during the pandemic in March of 2020, I moved back to Philadelphia to stay with my parents and worked remotely, and the judge pretty much ignored me for six weeks before he called me up and told me in late April of 2020 that he was ending my clerkship early because I made him uncomfortable and lacked respect for him, but he didn't wanna get into it, and then he hung up on me.
So I called DC Court's HR and they told me there was nothing they could do that HR doesn't regulate judges, that judges and law clerks have a unique relationship. Then they asked me whether I knew that I was an at-will [00:05:00] employee. So then I reached out to my law school to Wash U Law for, I dunno, advice, support.
Found out the judge had a history of harassing his clerks and that law school officials, including several professors, and the clerkships director, who still works at Wash U to this day, knew about this at the time I'd accepted the clerkship, but decided to withhold that information from me, I guess, because they wanted another student to clerk.
So this was all really devastating. This was during the pandemic. I was with my parents. I had to break the news to them. I connected with some DC courts judges who directed me to the regulatory body for DC judges, where I ultimately filed a complaint against the judge.
I drafted it in May of 2020, but I wanted to wait to file it till I had a new job because I was already worried the judge would retaliate against me. Took me about a year to get back on my feet. I secured my dream job in the DC u s attorney's office as a prosecutor and moved [00:06:00] back to DC in the summer of 2021, intending to launch my career and put this behind me, and I was two weeks into training at the US Attorney's Office in July of 2021 when I received some really devastating news that altered the course of my life.
I was told the judge had made negative statements about me during my background investigation that I wouldn't be able to obtain a security clearance, and that my job offer was being revoked. Then the U S A O offered me the opportunity to interview for a different job. They revoked that offer to based on this same negative reference, which I had not even seen at that point.
I filed a judicial complaint, hired attorneys in the summer and fall of 2021. Participated in the investigation into the now former judge.
And we were partway through the investigation when some other attorneys reached out to me privately to tell me the judge was on administrative leave, pending an [00:07:00] investigation into other misconduct. At the time, he filed a negative reference about me. U S A O was really never alerted to the circumstances surrounding that negative reference
The former judge issued a clarifying statement addressing some, but not all of his outrageous claims about me. But by then, the damage had been done. It had been way too long, and I was pretty much blackballed from what I thought was my dream job.
And in the work I'm doing now, I share my experience publicly a lot. And what I always try to convey is that my experience, while not rare, is one that is rarely shared publicly due to the culture of silence and fear surrounding the judiciary. One of Deifying judges and disbelieving law clerks. Wow. I think we just need to collectively pause for a minute.
thank you for sharing that. I remember in reading your congressional testimony, cuz you have given congressional testimony on this issue, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a minute. One thing that [00:08:00] struck me, was, well first you initially did seek help and there was no one there effectively to help you.
Yes. Okay. And even. Your clerkship was ended even when it was over. You still landed your dream job. You still, even then weren't really trying to come out so loudly about this story, which you would've had every right to, but you even then weren't ready. I mean, I'm calling this a leap. Coming out, out on this issue is a part of your leap, right?
And then how you turned it into what is now, you know, your current really impactful work. But even then it was like you were pushing on, you were like, Fine clerkships ended. This is extremely difficult, but I found my dreamed up. I'm still getting to where I wanna go, which I think is pretty extraordinary in and of itself.
And then it comes back to haunt you even then. At that point, Alisa, when you found out that the judge had given this negative reference[00:09:00] what were you thinking? What were you feeling?
I remember walking down Connecticut Ave in DC crying on the phone with another judge, crying on the phone with the US attorney's office crying on the phone with the EEO office for the DC courts. All these entities in DC are really set up to protect misbehaving judges, not mistreated law clerks.
You know, it was several days. Sobbing and drafting this judicial complaint through my tears. You know, I had drafted this complaint a year earlier, always intending to file it. But if the former judge had just gone away and I was working as an A U S A, I have no idea what would've happened.
I mean, my complaints I've shared publicly a couple times more recently was. I don't know if I would've pursued it any further. It was really devastating. I don't talk that much about the immediate aftermath of finding that out.
I didn't tell my parents. They kind of learned about this when I spoke publicly, when I submitted written [00:10:00] testimony many months later.
I can't imagine it was a really painful time. It was a painful and isolating time, and then the months after it were this judicial investigation. Where the only people I really interacted with were my attorneys. There was the process of doing the FOIA request for the reference and the request being denied.
I just realized that all these systems are set up to protect judges no matter how much misconduct they commit, that there is really a lack of accountability within the judiciary, and yeah. So Eliza, what do you do next? So I file this complaint. The judge is eventually involuntarily retired from the bench.
While I was in the process of going through the judicial investigation in the summer of 2021, I became aware of the Judiciary Accountability Act or j a, that is proposed legislation that would extend Title VII protections to judiciary employees. Currently law clerks and federal public defenders are exempt from Title seven, [00:11:00] meaning that folks like me cannot sue our harassers and seek damages for harms done to our lives.
and I should say real quick, so
title VII of the Civil Rights Act is what protects us most of us in employment from discrimination based on our race, based on our religion, gender, you know, national origin. now sexual orient. Disability.
And you learned the hard way only through this process. It sounds like you weren't covered, if you had been working in the same experience had happened to you in another building down the street, working for someone, almost anyone who wasn't a judge, you would have those legal rights or protections, but because of who you worked for, You didn't have thoserights and it sounds like, needless to say, that was really jarring and eye-opening for.
Yes,
I was not protected by these laws. So yes, it was jarring, but it made me wanna do something about. So what did you do?[00:12:00] So reached out to House and Senate offices involved with drafting that bill to advocate for the bill to advocate for an amendment to cover the DC Court.
The House Judiciary Court subcommitteeinvited me to submit written testimony, So I shared a condensed version of my experience and the response was very positive, which I appreciated.
I know that previous law clerks who've spoken publicly, the response has not been so positive, and I began thinking through some ideas for further advocacy. To address the lack of accountability in the judiciary, the lack of workplace protections, and also the lack of transparency in the clerkship application process.
An issue that I personally experienced at my law school, one that is not unique to Wash U, but is an issue on many law school campuses, which is a real dearth of information about great judges to apply to and misbehaving judges to avoid. Which ultimately led me to found the [00:13:00] legal accountability project in June, 2022, which is aimed at ensuring that law clerks have a positive clerkship experience and then extend support and resources to the folks who don't.
Folks like me. So Eliza, during the time between when you were told you could no longer continue at the prosecutor's office, at the US Attorney's office, and when you did found this organization in June of 2022, what are you doing?
I mean, how do you get from being that person who finds out that they no longer have a job twice to now founding an organization where you're doing all this work and what is going on in the middle there?
So the judicial investigations span several months throughout the summer and fall during which I was also job searching.
I eventually started working as a family law attorney In October. Somebody hired me, who I met through my clerk. Worked there for about six months and then [00:14:00] in March, in conjunction with my written testimony, was already starting to think, this is not the type of work I wanna do. Perhaps law is not the type of work I wanna do.
Quit my job working at the law firm in mid-April to launch a legal accountability project. At the time I quit, I didn't really have a good sense of whether there would be a nonprofit or something else. Certainly not what it would look like, but I needed some time to figure it out. So I started having informal conversations, starting with my own alma mater, Wasi law, and then branching out there ultimately to more than 70 law schools
To find out about their existing clerkship resources, particularly those aimed at avoiding judges who mistreat their clerks. Learned that a small handful of law schools conduct a post clerkship survey of their alumni. Some keep those in searchable databases, realize those really do not capture the scope of the problem for a variety of reasons, and then eventually realize the best way to [00:15:00] centralize my advocacy work would be through this nonprofit.
And decided that law schools seem to be the ideal vectors for change. They have historically been part of the problem sometimes. Funneling students into clerkships they know or suspect are bad because of rankings and focusing on prestige of clerkship or a number of clerkships period over positive experience.
But that also makes them the ideal vectors for change on this issue. So was when you submitted congressional testimony, That wasn't the first time you spoke publicly about the issue, or It was, that was the first time I spoke publicly. which I appreciated because I mean, every clerkship application cycle, there's some dialogue on social media, Twitter, and other places about clerk.
And it is uniformly positive. And while I was going through the judicial misconduct investigation and seeing the uniformly positive messaging around clerkships on Twitter, it just made me so [00:16:00] angry and like, who is I to? I couldn't just start tweeting random stuff. I mean, I was nobody, like, what do I know on this issue now?
And I tweet, some people are interested in what I have to say, and that is great to have a platform to advocate on these issues. But I needed a good foundation and the written testimony provided that, okay, so the first big public thing that you did, you know some people, the first time they speak publicly on an issue.
I don't know. They might go share with a group of friends at a dinner party, but not you. You did it through congressional testimony, which got a lot of attention. It did. It did. And for many people, including my family, this was the first time they'd really heard about all. Particularly the judicial misconduct investigation, the negative reference.
Eliza, was there ever a time when you almost didn't come out about this? No. I was very certain this is what I wanted to do. Dating back till before the hearing was officially scheduled, and it had been pushed back a couple times. It was supposed to be a [00:17:00] little bit earlier. There was never any doubt in my mind this was the right thing to do.
I think some people in my network were worried. I mean, there were various female attorneys who said things to me Like the right professional decision would've been not to report speaking publicly will tarnish your reputation. I mean, those are just bad. But then there were other people who just did not know how this would be received.
Especially with the knowledge that my judicial complaint had been dismissed, and that was hard for me to share in the early days, and I had a couple great friends who were very supportive and helped me understand that most complaints are dismissed. It says nothing about me, that it was dismissed, but I thought that would make it harder for me in the early days speaking publicly.
And I think that caused me some concern. It has not deterred me in any way though. I really think that the judicial commission thought that that would stop me [00:18:00] from speaking publicly. I think the former judge and his legal team thought that would stop me from speaking publicly. You know, that has really not deterred my advocacy work in any way because look, your experience is still your experience.
And there was also never a question that, I mean, you've mentioned this judge also. Engaged in similar conduct with other law clerks. So you weren't alone. And you've already said that the law wasn't on your side on this issue, which is why you're trying to change it. And I think that, you know, look, folks don't report things for various reasons and everyone has to make their own personal choice at what's right for them.
But it sounds like you threw a lot of discouragement. Kind of just always had this strong internal compass that this is what needed to happen and you needed to come out about this issue regardless of where it landed and what happened. Absolutely. Accountability is something that's always been very important to me, is grounded in my interest in becoming a prosecutor is grounded in the [00:19:00] nonprofits.
People ask about the vision and the future of the nonprofits and it's judicial accountability. I work on other issues. Now, diversity is certainly important. Other things are important too, but it's about accountability for judges who mistreat their clerks. And so speaking of this nonprofit, because thank you, you've helped me kind of start filling in the gaps between, you know, the person who again had the rug pulled out under her twice, and the person who is sitting before me now who's formed this great organization, where did you get the idea?
It sounds like it, you started with just learning like, wait, there's gaps in the law and I had to learn the hard way that it doesn't protect me. Wait, I can submit testimony on this. I've maybe gotten a lot of attention from doing. How do you go from there to starting a nonprofit, which you're now the executive director and founder of?
You know, I think there is the great idea of launching a nonprofit and then there are like the logistical challenges of launching a nonprofit. We have great pro bono council and they help me with a lot of things, both corporate governance and like data privacy, security stuff.
[00:20:00] it takes a village and I've appreciated everybody who's pitched in to help. You know, we've only, we've been a nonprofit for less than a year, and we've already gone through several iterations of the business
I think through the messaging a lot for the nonprofit and like the competing stakeholders, law students and law clerks for whom strong statements are important because they are not fully empowered for a variety of reasons to speak publicly themselves versus keeping law school admins on board.
Strong statements might, you know, upset some of them. That doesn't make it less true that law schools have historically been part of the problem.
Look, you're part of the dance because you are both highlighting issues and trying to partner with the very groups who've helped create, or at least, continue those issues. Yes. To fix it. And so it was never not gonna be a dance. And I imagine you walk it every day. I do.
I, I definitely, whatever the, these are delicate relationships. I am so intentional about [00:21:00] fostering like relationships of trust and mutual respect. And look, not every school is going to partner with us this year. Not every stakeholder will be on board this year, but I think what has made L E P successful thus far?
Is that I'm willing to go anywhere and engage with anyone, and I think that's some of the best feedback I get is that everybody appreciates that I am open to and intentional about the dialogue,
It's challenging. I took on big potential partners law schools this year and they are not always changemakers. I think some will be this year and more will come on board later. It's challenging work, but it's enormously gratifying and it's so important. I mean, current and former clerks reach out to me every day to thank me and confide in me.
And I've just been really impressed with like the student advocacy students get it immediately and they are galvanized to go to their administrations and demand that they participate.
And at this point, we're like seven, eight months in [00:22:00] and we've changed the conversation like we have penetrated. As a friend said to me today, our message resonates broadly. I receive outreach from law students at schools we haven't visited yet. Saying, this came up at my clerkships meeting. Where are you with my administration?
I know from students, and this is coming up brought up by the clerkship directors, sometimes saying supportive things, sometimes saying Aliza wants to abolish clerkships, which is not helpful. But we've changed the conversation and that's not the only thing, but that's a very important thing.
Could you ever have looked back and known that this is where you would be several years ago, even 12 months ago? I didn't see this coming. I always kind of thought in law school that I would ultimately do some type of advocacy work
I obviously, what, when I was in law school, didn't know what that would be. I am really heartened that the nonprofit has taken off. I mean, we still have a long ways to go, but I think it's important for me to use my [00:23:00] position now to really advocate for change.
speaking of actually the J A A, the Judicial Accountability Act, the law, which would've given discrimination protection to clerks like you were, what's the status right now of that law?
you know, we'll see.
I think it has the potential for broad bipartisan support, which is something I wrote about in the Harvard Journal and legislation that both democratic and Republican judicial appointees mistreat their clerks, and both liberal and conservative clerks face mistreatment. So this should resonate broadly.
You know, judiciary leadership is a small but weirdly powerful lobby law clerks a little bit less powerful and there just aren't that many willing to speak publicly on this.
Unfortunately, I don't know that a DC Court's amendment would be included even if the J were to pass. But I am also very intentional about advocacy work vis-a-vis DC Courts, and they know that. So you remain hopeful and more than hopeful, you remain in active, [00:24:00] engagement on these issues. And regardless, in the meantime, you were doing so much other work with your organization to support law clerks and try and ensure through as many avenues as possible that there's accountability when folks are mistreated
And you're working with law schools and students That's great. Definitely it is about ensuring judicial accountability, but recognizing the lack of workplace protections in a judiciary, it is so important
Ensuring that law students have as much info about as many judges as possible before they make what is clearly a really important decision about their careers, and I'm just excited to be part of this work. Great.
I often ask folks as the last sort of interview conversation, what insight advice. Would you have to offer to someone who is maybe considering coming out about the specific issues you did or maybe considering starting an organization they care about, or maybe they're just looking to make a life change And my guess is folks will walk away.
My hope is from this conversation, regardless, feeling like, wow, [00:25:00] this person made really difficult decisions twice. Both in coming out about, mistreatment in the workplace. It's a great personal risk. And second in actually forming an organization that addressed these same issues.
what might you have to share? I would say two things. If you identify an unmet need and you have a great idea, take the leap.
Just do it. I mean, I do not regret at all quitting my job based on just a good idea and an inclination that this would resonate. So just do it. I mean, I am always concerned when I hear people say, especially in the nonprofit space, Why do we need another nonprofit? Well, my nonprofit works on issues.
Nobody works on an legal community. So I identified a need and I made it happen, and I thought of it because it's what I wish existed when I was a law student applying for clerkships. For somebody who's thinking about speaking out about their own negative experience, I would say 110% do. It is [00:26:00] enormously empowering to speak publicly, and I have felt increasingly empowered over the past year almost that I've been speaking about this.
Definitely in the early days, I dodged questions about the judicial investigation. I was less empowered to say that my complaint had been dismissed. I've been increasingly open about harder aspects of my experience, but it's empowering to see my experience resonate. I hope that by sharing my experience, I'm empowering law students to demand safer workplaces and other current former clerks to speak out about their own negative experiences.
But for people who are willing to speak openly about a less than positive workplace experience, you're really gonna help a lot of other people understand that they are not alone. I watched a former clerk testify before the House Judiciary Committee in February of 2020 when I was like deep in my clerkship, hellscape.
And her message that I was not alone really [00:27:00] resonated with me, and that's kind of what I hope to leave everybody else with. Thank you for sharing that.
Thank you.
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Till next time.
