D.I.I.verse Podcast: Will it make the boat go faster?
Join Adam Vasco & Julian Gwinnett as they explore a range of topics under the umbrella of Diversity, Inclusion & Intersectionality through interviews with special guests. D.I.I.verse is a centre of excellence for Diversity, Inclusion & Intersectional approaches brought to you by The University of Wolverhampton. D.I.I.verse aims to lead a strategic vision for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion in the region and nationally. Through a team of academics, practitioners, and activists we aim to support colleagues in working towards a more equitable society. The podcast explores some of the themes, challenges and approaches in achieving these goals.
D.I.I.verse Podcast: Will it make the boat go faster?
Courageous Conversations: Insights from Adam Vasco, Julian Gwinnett and Kerensa Hodge
What happens when you bring together experts in, diversity, inclusion and intersectionality in academia to discuss the power of courageous conversations? Join us as we dive into an eye-opening discussion recorded at Wolverhampton University's Alan Turing building. With insightful contributions from Adam Vasco, Director of Diversity and Inclusion in Professional Practice, we uncover the true essence of creating safe spaces for authentic dialogue. Adam shares his personal journey, including the profound friendship with Julian and his experiences with neurodivergence, shedding light on the continuous effort of unlearning and relearning biases.
Our exploration doesn't stop there; we transition into the academic realm, where we tackle the critical role universities play in addressing societal issues. From the barriers faced by global majority postgraduate researchers to the underrepresentation of Black professionals in academia, we highlight the importance of inclusive and diverse discussions. The episode delves into how societal polarisation, from Brexit to the situation in Gaza, affects our willingness to engage in meaningful conversations. Universities, we argue, have a unique position in influencing broader societal narratives and fostering progressive change.
Finally, we confront the challenges and rewards of embracing discomfort during these courageous conversations. Julian and our guests emphasize the necessity of valuing diverse perspectives and finding common ground through active listening. By challenging our preconceptions, we can foster progress and build environments where everyone feels a sense of belonging. We wrap up with reflections on gratitude for the enriching dialogue and the collaborative efforts that made this episode possible. Don't miss this profound discussion that promises to leave you thinking deeply about the power of courageous conversations in both journalism and academia.
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We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's Multimedia Journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour, to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the journalism undergraduate degree, just email the course leader, gareth Owen.
Speaker 2:His address is gowen3 at wlvacuk hello and welcome everyone to another episode of the diverse podcast, where today we're going to be talking about courageous conversations. And to help me discuss this subject, I'm joined in the studio by Anna Vasco and Corenza Hodge, and, corenza, I'm going to hand right over to you to begin this conversation and help us to explore this topic further.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you so much, julian, and I'm so excited to be here today because I think it's going to be one of my favorite subjects and I know that I'm with adam and julian here today and we've looked, we've got a bit of history together, um, in regards to these podcasts. But what really excites me is the idea that, without really realising the podcast going back to the idea of what makes the boat go faster with this podcast has been courageous conversations that we've been listening to on the portal, so to speak. So today we're going to have an up and personal conversation with Adam I'm one of his oldest friends and I will still maintain, because he said that at the university just to discuss this concept of courageous conversations and really the idea to demystify or to retake away the fear of when we talk about the idea of having courageous conversations courageous conversations, so welcome.
Speaker 4:Adam. I don't know if I've ever fully introduced myself, so my name is Adam and I'm the Director of Diversity and Inclusion in Professional Practice here at the university, and I'm dual heritage, but I feel that I am part of the black community. That's really important to me. I've gone on my own journey about my sense of identity, but, yeah, dual heritage, I think, for me, me, when we're thinking about this idea of of courageous conversations, um, what we're really talking about, I think, is, um, there is some vulnerability, therefore, in having a conversation, um, and it's about maybe speaking with honesty, authenticity, which I think if we asked any leader, member of a community family member, anyone we spoke, to do we want people to have honest, authentic conversations uh, we would say yes, the almost by default from that. I think it does mean that there is a vulnerability to it.
Speaker 4:As we spoke about that, that power imbalance before, um I. I think that you are right that intersectional lens. I think we would be wrong not to acknowledge that if you maybe come from any type of minoritized group, and I include um sort of polar quintile data, socioeconomics and all those things in there, so it takes a broad group of people in there that that's partly where the vulnerability comes. It's harder to to voice some of the um, some of that, but I think what we're specifically talking about today is that, through that lens of diversity, inclusion, intersectionality, the sort of the dive or diverse um, it's because we're talking about promoting the understanding, uh, fostering or addressing biases and it's about recognizing some of those things.
Speaker 4:I I talk about cultural competence a lot and there's a journey of um unle, relearning and those things, and I think these types of conversations are about that really. I think part of it is about creating a safe space, julian. So I think would you agree that probably step one really is that as an institution, as a society, as in our friendship groups, in the community and we say these things flippantly, don't we? So we create safe spaces. That sounds great. I think everyone will agree we create safe spaces. But if there is a vulnerability to these types of conversations, then that might be easier said than done perhaps.
Speaker 2:Yes, because I mean that. You say vulnerability, but I mean from my, my perspective already begins with yourself first and foremost, and it begins with understanding that we all of us we're all like a product of our collective experiences. Yeah, but within that, we're also, to a degree, a product of our collective biases.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's about interrogating that yeah and actually being aware of them, but being comfortable with the idea that a lot of what we know and and think about the world is a product of that. You know of those biases and how we actually have to identify them before we can actually move on beyond them. So there's a lot of preparation that goes into having courageous conversations, because it starts with an interrogation of yourself. It starts with an interrogation of how you understand and experience the world and how that might in some way be influenced by factors that you're not necessarily aware of or conscious of I totally agree and I think it is.
Speaker 4:This is probably where it's really important to to demonstrate some of that vulnerability. So, obviously, um, my job is now I live and breathe this space of you know, the edi space, and that's a really privileged position to be in, um, and I am constantly on that journey of unlearning and relearning all the time. And if I, if I'm honest, so, um, julian, if you don't mind, my friendship with you being is a really good example, so, um, my understanding, um of some aspects of the neurodivergent community, because, julian, you are only one person, you are not representative of the whole neurodivergent community and anyone listening.
Speaker 4:Please don't think that I am yes absolutely and we, we know that, um, but I'm fortunate in that I, I my circle of friends, by definition, continues to diversify more and more and more, and so I hear lots of different experiences which challenge my thinking. So an example of, I guess I'll frame maybe some of the courageous conversations. I know that maybe Julian has, and this will sound like that's not courageous conversation. This is just working through something, but I think these are some of the ways that we start off. So when I worked in the faculty, we piloted that we wanted to send interview questions out in advance because we thought that was a more inclusive thing to do and we spent some time, um evaluating that and, of course, because we, we did it, I was leading it, the the your own bias wants to go. We've done a good thing there and pat yourself on the back.
Speaker 4:We're looking for that affinity bias of yes, we've done the right thing, um, and the attention was good and there was some good outcomes from that. But then, as we started to evaluate more, I was working more with colleagues in the disabled staff network and you get the the correct type of pushback well of. Well, it's okay to send the questions in advance, but your questions are dreadful and actually actually is interviewing the most inclusive way to even find the best person for the job? And, let's be honest, that's what we are doing. We are trying to remove barriers to find the best person for the job and Julian and colleagues in the Disabled Staff Network I think we're really good at being able to. They're really good examples of um, courageous conversations. I think all our staff networks are. Actually I've been able to push back and say, yeah, intention, good. If I think about the offstead thing and I know no one likes talking about offstead but the intent, the implementation and the impact, the intent to create a more inclusive recruitment system.
Speaker 2:Good.
Speaker 1:Most of us agree that's important.
Speaker 4:Implementation. Some of that might be valid. So sending questions in advance may be valid, but it needs more work. So the challenge that came back from the Disabled Staff Network, I'll push it back to saying but those questions just the not only are they not really neurodivergent friendly, but what particularly are you trying to get out from? That is a really good example of um. I think, the types of courageous conversations we need.
Speaker 4:I don't think we need to think all of a sudden that courageous conversations are suddenly debating the most philosophical questions in in in life. It's about, for us as a team of people who are working about the betterment of and progression of, our student community, our staff community, our whole university community and beyond, how do we achieve those, those common goals, um, and that was one way we were looking to, and so it's facilitating conversations around that. So I think, coming back to you, carenza, I think there's a really it's really important to not frame this that courageous conversations oh sorry you, julian, that courageous conversations aren't this thing to have about huge. They might be about philosophical things, but actually it's just about intent, implementation, impact and the push back on about huge. They might be about philosophical things, but actually it's just about. You know intent, implementation, impact and the push back on things when we are trying. All of us are trying to do the right thing, but actually sometimes we're we're wider than mark we just, I mean to say, state the obvious.
Speaker 2:We don't know what, we don't know absolutely. Um part of feeding off of that conversation we were just having. Actually, for me, the the one thing that I I remember most intently was is that how institutions end up sort of like, literally, however much we try not to, we end up embracing, like institutional group, think yeah, even when we're consciously trying not to yeah, I think and so much of what.
Speaker 2:How we you know, employment processes are always really, really interesting because, they always focus very, very narrowly on my individuals and individual skill set.
Speaker 2:They're never really sort of like broad-based, and if you ever really wanted to sort of like think about how you might actually improve, increase diversity, increase inclusivity, and if you only ever focused on people answering interview questions related to what they'd done previously throughout their careers, that naturally puts a limit on what they can actually talk about, and I think if all of us as individuals ever sat down and thought to us well, what are we really proud of during our lives? What experiences have we done? What are the things that we've done that we can sit down and say like I'm really, really pleased that I was involved with, I was really proud of that? I think most people, um, would probably say that the the things they're most proud of, pleased with their lives, come from outside their work environments, and I think for me, it's. We don't focus enough on on the whole person. We focus on the narrow, the narrow snapshot of somebody that we see within our office environments and I guess.
Speaker 4:So, I suppose, what we're only talking about. So that's one type of courageous conversation, but they the other types of courageous conversations yeah, thank you, do require us.
Speaker 4:It's about having the facilitation skills. So yesterday I filled in for Vindarar, associate Director for EDI, related to HR. They're rolling out some Ei training, from organizational development to our line managers, um, and part of that, as we were saying, is, you know, we, we want to create an environment where, uh, staff and students feel comfortable enough to essentially have what we're talking about here, corinne's, you know, courageous conversations, um, but it takes. This is where the vulnerability comes in, isn't it? And your staff will talk about and students will talk about the vulnerability, I think, when you're in an institution probably comes from that.
Speaker 4:We might not always like to admit it, but that power imbalance sticking your head above that proverbial parapet and saying something which maybe is, as I say, against the prevailing wind, speaking out in some way, um, often where it's highlighting uh, some type of maybe prejudice, uh, yeah, maybe discrimination or something around that uh is is tricky and therefore the skills that are needed to be able to to facilitate that conversation. So the thing is about facilitating. It's about being empathetic and showing compassion, but, by default, one of the biggest things about it is handling discomfort and going back to that radical candor point of view. That's the thing I think that we all find and, by the way, I absolutely as well.
Speaker 4:I, I physically, now, when I'm having a difficult conversation have to. Really, I don't quite think aloud, but I have to. I have to, I have to acknowledge the feelings that are coming in. It's like inside out, you know, when it shows you the different feelings that, um, that are happening and it's going through. That step isn't it of going right, actually like let's not react to the, the challenge, because the challenge isn't the point. Have to not center myself in this a minute and knowledge, and and that's the, the handling, the discomfort, I think is the bit that takes um, training and actually, uh, really thinking through that type of process. I don't think it's just something that we can say flippantly Our jobs are to handle courageous conversations Okay then, but it takes some real conscious thought to how to do that.
Speaker 3:I think that's quite interesting and I'd like to kind of throw something out there. Many moons before I started university, I had the notion that universities were a place of critical thinkers and people were allowed to, you know, say what they want, in a sense, in their, in environment, which would have been fed by evidence. So it wouldn't have just been conversations that hurt, it would have been conversations and what we're talking about today courageous conversations, and I think over years I've kind of been in shock at the reluctance within educational institutes not naming any particular one where they're reluctant to discuss issues that outside the university are discussing, but we're kind of shying away from it. So I'm not sure if this is lost within university walls and if that calls going back to what you both kind of like I spoke about.
Speaker 3:The idea of being courageous again is to be critical but to kind of like change the framework that we're working from to be able to start that reintroducing people and, as you know, students are encouraged to be critical in their work, and that is obviously like the conversations that we're talking about. But within academia, do you feel I'm throwing it out to both of you? If it's time that we may need to don't know start a movement in the sense where we try to bring back this as a form of framework with a diverse lens.
Speaker 4:I think there's a, I think there's almost two things at play there. So I I still would like to believe and still see a really good examples within the university that actually maybe, when in in the format of lectures, talking about something that might be, uh, contentious or of interest, that it is possible to facilitate those more contentious conversations when we are talking about bringing through those different, like you say, the criticality, so bringing in different viewpoints, um, yeah, you know, sort of creating your own lines of inquiry with those different viewpoints. Absolutely, that's what higher education, you know, is partly all about, and I still think that probably in lectures, that's where we do have staff who are doing a really good job of navigating. That I like to think that's still the case in higher education. Navigating that I, I like to think that's still the case in higher education.
Speaker 4:I think the, the, the difficulty is that what we're talking about sometimes and by the nature of our work. So obviously, karenza, in your role as the um leader of the community of practice in the that's me project, which is seeking to eliminate barriers for global majority postgraduate researchers, by definition, then that's an acknowledgement of there are therefore barriers for that group of people. We know the percentage of, say, black professors in the UK is still shocking. In my line of work and my previous background education the number of black teachers, head teachers etc is is incredibly poor.
Speaker 4:I just draw those as some examples, um, I think they tend to be the the more tricky conversations. I think it is. It is easier when it's framed in a subject, so we are trying to pull something apart in a subject. I do think that, um, we've we've come off the back of a long period of time as a society, um, I won't say anything too political, but 14 years in, essentially, where I think the, the flames of, I'm going to say, faux culture wars have been fans, we have very dichotomized positions and I think we've lost some of the nuance as a society, brexit being a very key example to here. So we stupidly, in my view, labeled people who might have wanted to leave as being bigoted. I think the other side did that. They made lots of judgments about people who wanted to, who voted leave, rather than having a nuanced conversation and pick. Why have that courageous conversation? On the other side of things, those people who wanted to remain are labeled as woke and you know that's become some type of pejorative, and so we and, and even if we look at at politics, everything's framed in left, right and it's these dichotomized positions. And so, therefore, the nuanced conversations perhaps, which I think also is about courageous conversations, because I don't think when we have courageous conversations, that we should expect there's going to be a single answer to that. I think it's about trying to understand at least where the other person is coming from, while still obviously keeping your viewpoint.
Speaker 4:But to go back to your point, I think that's the difference in that Higher education, great in the subject, if I'm studying education or whether it's in the arts, I can tackle some of the bigger issues within that, because I can really start to unpick so in uh education about the different uh takes on um behavior, management, behaviorism, and see that there's this side of playing, this side of it, maybe unpick this nuance and really play with it.
Speaker 4:But if we start to talk about bigger societal issues, then they they perhaps become um political hot potatoes that people are um a little bit concerned to talk about um and I'm not going to take the podcast down this route.
Speaker 4:But if we look at the current situation in gaza, that's a really good example where we have too many people probably who are fearful of talking because they're they don't want to be islamophobic, anti-semitic and maybe not quite knowing how to navigate that when absolutely we should be empowered to be able to, to speak out about a situation where there are lots of people dying. I'm not trying to take the podcast in that direction, but I think it's another example maybe of those types of conversations and maybe the subtle difference between what a university and academia allows us as conversations. And, by the way, I should point out, I saw an amazing academic, barnaby Rain, talk about this. So, in their context again, the framing of academia he was able to have a conversation, um, I guess, a courageous conversation around that um and again, maybe being framed because he was a historian, he was much. It was much easier to frame the conversation around an issue like gaza in an academic way. So, yeah, um, I think it's a long-winded version of the answer in your question, sally Cleanser.
Speaker 2:I'm going to try and come up with a shorter response. I think it's interesting because it cuts to the heart of what is a university. And I mean that in all seriousness, because my understanding is that universities aren't just factories for learning. They're more than just simply educational institutions that focus on literally, um, providing an individual with the, the learning experience in order to actually succeed in whatever chosen profession they they want to actually sort of go into. They are so much more than that. They are beacons within the communities they actually serve. They're sort of like literally focal points that actually sort of like are really important, if, if, if, in most cases, the most important part in actually sort of like changing the narrative in terms of actually creating a more progressive, more inclusive, more diverse world and actually helping us to actually understand what that actually means in practice and how we can actually achieve it.
Speaker 2:Because the conversations that happen here go outside the walls within this institution and actually disseminate outwards into the world. People take forward ideas and actually sort of like become you know, our students, our academics Just the ideas themselves actually sort of like have a really powerful, a really powerful in terms of transforming the communities in which we we live so that we can look at the world today and see that it is. It is the, you know, the culmination of lots of other previous worlds that existed and we can see sort of like a, a form of linear progress, which might not always be be evident, but you know it clearly is there and that process will continue and that's the really important part. It will continue so that 10-15 years time it was entirely possible that people might look at the world we're living in today and ask themselves how on earth did this happen?
Speaker 2:how did people think and act and behave the way we did?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's a good thing, because that will only be possible when people maintain that critical lens. So we provide people with the means by which to develop a critical lens and also the sort of momentum to like maintain it beyond the experience they have here and they take that forward throughout their entire lives and, I think, also is within. That is weirdly, I suppose I I do wonder whether and this might be just me as a neurodivergent person here is whether, when it comes to different courageous conversations in terms of the difficulty that's sort of like you know it becomes evident when you are involved in it, particularly when you are challenged, when your views, your weight, what you think you know is challenged and you're having to act actually sort of like look at the situation, say, are we are, am I even, am I actually wrong? And that's a really difficult thing to embrace really. And I think that's because I think we focus a lot on processes and not on outcomes. I think I like to try as best I can and.
Speaker 2:I mean only try is to focus on what those outcomes are. What are the outcomes? The outcome is, ultimately, is literally creating a more diverse, inclusive world for everybody and a more accessible world as well, and that can only really happen if everybody actually feels as though they they are, they actually are present in that world, they actually are there, they belong there. So everybody's viewpoint is is valuable in that conversation. And, yes, it's really difficult, it's really easy to jump to conclusions because, think, think, when I'm interrogating, my own bias. My own bias is that I might struggle sometimes to understand people who completely disagree with me on a subject, but that, to some extent, is maybe my bias, yeah, so I think if we go back, to your question, karenza.
Speaker 4:So if what I proposed before is right, if we, if what I proposed before is right, that I still think that in academia the difficult conversations are being had within the, the framing of subjects. I think it's teasing out some of why. I think it links to what julian said. So that's that's allowing for those sessions, allow for the time and space to critically reflect, to be challenged, uh, on viewpoints, um, to use research and reading to bring those things. But and that I think is is one of the things that, if we are to have courageous conversations, as we are suggesting here, to maybe tackle some of the, the tougher things, I think things why, potentially, projects like that's Me have an impact is because, again, it gives this framing of right. This is the problem and we want to have some time to have a conversation. So, if we use the Brexit analogy, again, we got lost on sort of headlines, messages on buses and everything else, and probably someone really needed to sit down and say okay, there's a conversation that needs to be facilitated here about immigration. I have my own view on immigration and it's very liberal, as people will probably assume, but there's 50% of the population that voted, or slightly more actually that have a different view and we probably actually need to facilitate the space, not slogans, not messages, not buzzwords, not get brexit done, not 350 million to the nhs, but actually, like you said, julian, listen, listen and recognize that there is a diff. There is definitely a different viewpoint and, as uncomfortable as I might find, as I might find it, it might actually have some validation to it.
Speaker 4:Where I need to shift in thinking, you need to shift in thinking and I think that, going back to the bit that you asked, karenza, that the academia, when we hold it in subjects, does that because we have to, we're having to take in these views, really the but in sort of society in our general, sometimes we come, maybe they're not being prepared for a courageous conversation. That's not the place to have it. Suddenly walk into a room and suddenly start a courageous conversation without preparation probably isn't the place to do that. We need to come in prepared, but and I think it's prepared to be challenged because, as I said before, when I have them I have to reset myself and think about it.
Speaker 4:Julian, you were just saying then yes, I've got to think about, I've got to be challenged, but that takes a headspace to get into, doesn't it Like? Today we're going to get into a conversation and I'm going to hear some things which I am absolutely on the opposite side of. But not to dismiss that and I think that that's the, you know, some of the takeaways I think is the linking to where there are successes, perhaps in in academia, to take that space to facilitate the time for the conversation, to understand you're going to be challenged um those types of things do you do either.
Speaker 2:you feel that at the heart of this issue here is is um, is um, a decline in thinking, even outside institutions. But you know the world beyond, you know beyond that even the world is in in itself a whole is that we seem to have got ourselves into a place where being able to compromise is becoming increasingly rare and also, alongside that as well, being able to disagree agreeably is also increasingly rare, and these two things are very, very, very important to them in terms of addressing many of the issues we talked about.
Speaker 4:Do you know? I think it's really important that obviously there are some issues which are more black and white.
Speaker 1:I get that.
Speaker 4:But I think some of what we're talking about in Courageous Conversations is that it's not necessarily, and it takes some nuance and compromise to go. We're not going to change everyone's worldview and belief system and I'm not entirely sure that's either realistic or anyone's job anyway. But it is about making sure that we don't act on the prejudice, that we don't discriminate against people. We recognise where that prejudice is having an impact. That, at least, is a first step towards a more equitable um society, and I think that's some of it, and I I'm with julian. I do believe we have lost some of the as a society, some of the, the idea of, of compromise, um, and I understand it and I really I I know that um the most radical sort of thinkers and radical ideas have not shown compromise and and that's maybe where the biggest change is made.
Speaker 3:But at the same time, I do think there are plenty of other conversations where it is about a bit of give and take and finding a slightly more um common ground, whilst it not being the case all the time I think, kind of like on the final note, really, I think what we've tapped into, or the theme that I'm kind of like in from this conversation and from other podcasts that we do have done, is that concept again of safe spaces and safe space. And it's quite ironic because, physically, I feel that a lot of people don't feel in a safe space, even if you go back to gaza, which you know, believing in the kind of ecosystem when you're looking at the world not being so safe again, how does it make you feel safe, even the space that you're in and even, like you said, even it's between, like the three of us here and we've come together and we feel quite safe to share these ideas, the idea that I think you touched on previously as well, julian, in regards to belonging, and that is it. How do you feel safe to have that courageous conversations and I think that could be a conversation itself, that bringing it back into context, because all the time we've kind of bumped into it how do people feel safe to say what they're feeling and even to receive information with intent? So what is the intention of the other person? Is?
Speaker 3:We got the kind of operative term here conversations. It's never just one way. It's not talking over or projecting as if you're doing a presentation in a seminar. It's more the idea is a two way street and it's going to come back at you. So even that kind of idea of having emotional intelligence, that if you're going to give it, then how does it come back? So I think we've retouched in some really just like tender hooks of the concept of courageous conversation. So as we're finishing here and as it's come to a time we can look at the idea of maybe just sharing with each other what we believe and, based on what we've just spoken about I've just said, safe spaces is definitely something we need to do to make the boat go faster, to have these courageous conversations. I leave it to you two, gentlemen, to tell me what you think would make the boat go faster.
Speaker 4:Tell me what you think would make the boat go faster. I think you've summed that up beautifully and I think the key takeaway is definitely to make the boat go faster, exactly what Corenza said Creating the safe space and the time so it needs. The courageous conversations in the main should be planned, give people time and the space and create that space. I think the other thing is, personally, every person who's going into a courageous conversation must be ready to handle the discomfort that you're talking about and be ready to listen, to truly listen actively and acknowledge the feelings of which are likely to be from a different point, or those feelings which are from a different viewpoint, um, and maybe understand that sometimes it's good to take those on board, reflect, go away and again come back to some more courageous conversations about about those things, um. So I I think, I think, just building on what corinne said, I would just add to it that it's about creating a safe space, being open to challenge, to different opinion, and I will hand over to Julian.
Speaker 2:Wow, how do I compete with that?
Speaker 2:I think ultimately, for me, it's about recognising that not everything in life is either or and not everything is a zero-sum game in which you have to go in and win, otherwise you will lose it's not it's not that black and white that sometimes some of the greatest progresses that ever made is where people with different ways of seeing and understanding the world came together and agreed to compromise in some way or other and and through that compromise they fundamentally learned something about each other. They learned something about each other's experiences and that challenged their previous preconceptions and it sort of like enabled them to sort of like move forwards and think very differently about the world and and to an extent well, to, hopefully to a large extent learn to actually value and sort of take on board the opinions and views of other people well, I think that's a perfect note to finish on.
Speaker 3:So thank you so much for adam. It's been a privileged interview year and it's been too long and once again, thank you again, julian, for co-hosting and supporting me, as you usually do.
Speaker 2:Thank you both you.