D.I.I.verse Podcast: Will it make the boat go faster?
Join Adam Vasco & Julian Gwinnett as they explore a range of topics under the umbrella of Diversity, Inclusion & Intersectionality through interviews with special guests. D.I.I.verse is a centre of excellence for Diversity, Inclusion & Intersectional approaches brought to you by The University of Wolverhampton. D.I.I.verse aims to lead a strategic vision for Equality, Diversity and Inclusion in the region and nationally. Through a team of academics, practitioners, and activists we aim to support colleagues in working towards a more equitable society. The podcast explores some of the themes, challenges and approaches in achieving these goals.
D.I.I.verse Podcast: Will it make the boat go faster?
Disability History Month: Disability, Livelihood and Employment
Join us as we uncover the stories and insights of Dr. Eun Sun Godwin and Katy Deacon, two trailblazers in the realm of accessibility and inclusion. They shine a light on the barriers faced by the UK’s 24% disabled population and explore how technology can be a game-changer for individuals with disabilities. From Wolverhampton University's advanced Alan Turing building, we envision a world where digital tools empower people like Josie, a young woman with cerebral palsy, enabling them to work and communicate effectively. This conversation aims to shift the narrative from limitations to potential, highlighting the vital contributions of disabled individuals in the workforce.
Explore the real challenges and triumphs linked to the UK’s Access to Work scheme, a government initiative that often stumbles over bureaucratic hurdles. We share personal experiences that illustrate the delay-ridden path to receiving necessary support, despite the program's promise. Our discussion underscores the pressing need for employer awareness regarding accommodations and legislation, like the Equality Act's reasonable adjustments. We tackle misconceptions head-on, urging a focus on the remarkable problem-solving skills and contributions of disabled individuals, and how these can transform workplaces into bastions of inclusivity.
Imagine the future where technological advancements like assistive robots, self-driving cars, and alternative communication systems rewrite the rules of employment. With a forward-thinking lens, we delve into projects that ignite inclusivity in industries like manufacturing, ensuring that disabled voices shape innovative paths. Dr. Godwin and Katy Deacon discuss how embracing diversity is more than just a societal obligation—it's an investment in untapped talent and economic growth. As we dream of an inclusive 2040, we encourage societal change that embraces disabled individuals as invaluable assets, fostering a world where everyone stands to benefit. Listen in and be inspired to embrace an accessible future.
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We are recording this podcast at the home of Wolverhampton University's Multimedia Journalism degree in the Alan Turing building on City Campus. The radio studio we are sitting in is kitted out to the same standards as places like BBC Radio 4 and 5 Live. It was installed alongside two studios as part of the new Wolverhampton Screen School. If you want to pop in for a guided tour to discuss booking the studios or to chat about the the diverse hub podcast here at the university, of wolverhampton, where today we're going to be talking about how to create an accessible world.
Speaker 2:Now, before I introduce our wonderful guests for today's discussion, I'm going to do something unusual for a change. I'm going to read out a vision of what the near future might hopefully look like for people with disabilities. So bear with me as I consult my notes. So Josie is a 28 year old who and has cerebral palsy. She mainly communicates via augmentative and alternative communication, known as ACC for short, which is built into her digital devices. This allows her to communicate via her smartphone or tablet. This technology also allows her to control her devices with her eyes via dwell control, meaning her device is fully accessible to her.
Speaker 2:She works in a local manufacturing SME. She entered the industry through a digital technology training program for disabled people. She learned how to operate machines, including co-bots, through VR metaverse and 3D printing. She learned how to operate machines, including co-bots, through VR Metaverse and 3D printing. She uses eye gaze instead of touch or voice sensors. However, getting a job after the training was not straightforward. She still lives at her parents' home. As it is almost fully digitalized and most appliances and lights being controlled by sensors that track movements through interconnected artificial intelligence. It is difficult for Josie to find a similar accommodation if she leaves the family home. Personal robots are now fully automated and controlled through the owner's wristwatch, which means they can assist in or into a wheelchair, or in walking or carrying up on stairs. However, some tasks require dexterity, such as helping the owner owners to get dressed, and need to be purchased by add-ons which are still very expensive. However, both she and her parents think it's not yet time for her to leave her parents' home, where she's grown up, and appropriate infrastructure upgrades have been developed for Josie as new technologies appear. These upgrades were done as a result of a government scheme government support schemes but also through her parents' own investment. Such customised living space means Josie needs to find a job which is either local to her parents' home or offers her complete home working, although VR technology can enable manufacturing employees to do complete home working. Although vr technology can enable manufacturing employees to do complete home working, it is still not common practice in most manufacturing organizations. This is partly because the financial cost involved in setting up a technology for home working, particularly for manufacturing smes. Hence, it took a while for Josie to find her current job, which is only 10 minutes by car from her parents and has equipment such as Cobots, vr and 3D printing, familiar to Josie from her digital technology training.
Speaker 2:The director of Josie's workspace, chris, is herself paralysed from the waist down since childhood and uses an exoskeleton which is part wearable and part implanted. Although she is not using a wheelchair anymore, chris understands Josie's needs for a wheelchair accessible workplace from her personal experience before the exoskeleton was available. Before the exoskeleton was available, josie's PR assists her to get in and out of a family self-driving vehicle which her parents upgraded when Josie working for the manufacturing SE. Via the UK government's mobility scheme, which now supports the lease of self-driving vehicles, the PR comes to work with her as it can fold itself into the back seat of the vehicle. Josie uses a power wheelchair which is operated through advanced sensors which respond to the body movements and light touch without grip. The wheelchair is highly maneuverable and it can navigate difficult terrain, including a steep incline. Nonetheless, she still needs the assistance of PR in clearing obstacles in a way or lifting her on stairs. This means the workplace adjustment has become relatively easier than in the past, when wheelchairs had limited capability for manoeuvrability or PR was not available. Due to the current fixed workstation design of the factory had limited capability for maneuverability or a PR was not available. Due to the current fixed workstation design of the factory, the PR is usually following her around with a sensory control for the wheelchair and stays next to her when she works at her workstation. Chris understands this challenge of fixed workstations and is currently seeking investment to change the factory layout to provide more reconfigurable and flexible and flexible workstations.
Speaker 2:And, very helpfully, the joint authors of this scenario are conveniently my guests for today's discussion and they can help us to, sort of like, delve into this, this scenario, and talk about it in more detail later during the conversation.
Speaker 2:So I'm delighted to be joined by dr eonson godwin, who is a senior lecturer in international business here at the university of wolverhampton within the faculty of arts, businesses and social sciences, and our very, very special guest for this this discussion, katie deacon, who is an award-winning and wheelchair using engineer and founder of towards belonging an organization who are committed to helping the engineering world understand the needs of the disabled community. Now I think it's only, before we start to go, delve deeper into what the future might look like and how we actually realise that brilliant vision of what the future might look like for people with disabilities. I think we need to acknowledge what the state of the world is today for people with disabilities, particularly in terms of employment opportunities, but, more specifically, the many barriers and challenges people with disabilities face in the world today. So, katie, would you like to help us understand what those barriers and challenges are?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, Julian, and thank you so much today. So in the UK we've got 24% of the population is disabled. Currently we have 11% of people are born with a disability or have a disability as they are children, so under 16s, Then disability is acquired. I don't really like that word, but it's the word that's used. Disability is acquired during their working life. So 23% of people develop a disability, just like I did.
Speaker 3:I developed my disability at 32. I was walking mountains, I was having a wonderful time and then I stopped being able to walk. But by the time people reach the state pension age whatever the age that is, depending on how old they are now 45% of people have developed a disability. And then by the time they are aged 80, because we are an aging population, now more people get to 80. And around that time we've got up to about 60% of people have a disability by the time they are 80 years old. And that is something which is seriously difficult because our built environment and our online environment are absolutely not accessible or inclusive, and that is something that we need to help engineers understand and try and help them to work towards a better built and online environment, and that's what we do at Towards Belonging towards a better built and online environment, and that's what we do at Towards Belonging.
Speaker 2:Now, am I right in thinking that there's a significant sort of employability gap between people with disabilities and people who do not have disabilities?
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. The current employment rate for people with disabilities is 54.2%, which compared to the people who do not have a disability, that's 82 percent um. So actually that's a massive gap and we need to look at why we've got that gap, and I think we'll do that throughout this conversation so what are the issues that people with disabilities face in terms of gaining employment?
Speaker 3:So there's an awful lot and you've got a disability. You say you've got a disability. That could be a number of different things. Not everybody uses a wheelchair like I do. Not everybody needs to use assistive technology to use a computer like I do. Some people are blind, some people are deaf, some people have a range of different conditions or they were in an accident and they had damage to their body. So you can't just look at disability as one thing. It could be a range of different things, different symptoms. It could be a range of different things, different symptoms. And so actually employers need to speak to the individual and understand and empath. Difficult to understand what people with disabilities need and actually, to be brutally honest, they feel that it's a bit too much trouble to actually consider what people with disabilities need, which means that they're being really short-sighted and they are not actually understanding the massive benefit their teams and their products could achieve because they have a diverse workforce.
Speaker 2:So in a way it's like a paradox, because employers are fearful about employing a person with a disability because they're worried they won't fit into their existing team yeah which then creates a sort of perpetual cycle of because there aren't people with disabilities in employment currently, they there's less reason, less rationale for actually reorganizing organizations that they're actually able to in encourage, enable people with disabilities to actually fit into the workplace, which makes the problem continue on and on and on it absolutely does.
Speaker 3:That's right and actually, though, if you're in the manufacturing or the engineering industry, for example, if you are designing a product, um, without somebody with a disability in your team, you are not going to have the perspective of someone with a disability, so your product is going to be quite short-sighted and will not achieve the requirements for 100% of the population. But if you do have someone in your team, then it will, because there's only 76% of the population that doesn't have a disability, so actually 24% of the population does, and we've got such a gap because teams are not including disabled people.
Speaker 2:Therefore, the products that are produced do not have that wide ranging take up from the disabled community Now, if I can bring you into this conversation now, I imagine there are some very particular and specific challenges for people with disabilities with regards to employment within the manufacturing industry. Are you able to actually tell us a little bit about what those specific challenges and barriers are?
Speaker 4:So I have been engaged with manufacturing industry practitioners and industry partners and I think the challenge is going both directions.
Speaker 4:So disabled people don't see manufacturing industries where they can work because the image of the machineries and kind of heavy, operational kind of site in their mind so they don't see necessarily manufacturing industry where they can enter into. But at the same time I think because of this imagery kind of barrier, manufacturing industry itself has got challenges to attract talent, particularly from minority groups, including women but also disabled people. And they are kind of saying we've got now challenges to attract young people to coming into the industry. Hence I think this discussion about including disabled people into design side and diversify the product and diversify the businesses is important because they are struggling to attract new influx of the workforce, kind of new influx of the workforce. Hence they need to kind of make their open their industry to not just to kind of typical traditional labor force but also other groups which has been hasn't been untapped, such as disabled people. Yeah, that's kind of the main challenges industry facing and that's, I think, also blocking or setting the barriers against disabled people.
Speaker 2:So a lot of the way that we overcome these barriers is through legislation, and in the last 30 years, especially throughout the course of my life, there's been a lot of legislation that's been designed to actually encourage organizations to be, sort of like, better providing for the needs of people with disabilities but also enabling, sort of like people with disabilities themselves to actually become more present in workforces. Um, but do you, do you feel, for instance, that, um, that all that legislation, um, you know? So I'm thinking specifically about things such as the Equalities Act of 2010. Do they adequately protect people with disabilities?
Speaker 4:So the project I am involved in which is about the inclusive digitalisation for disabled people in manufacturing industry inclusive digitalization for disabled people in manufacturing industry Our project didn't look into specific legislation so I can't really make specific comments about Equality Act 2010,. But we've done some evidence and literature review and based on that review we found one study which we critically reviewed the Black Review in 2008 and the Marmot Review in 2010, which changed the policy direction on disabled people's employment in the UK was very much segregated through sheltered employment or even sheltered placement. But this review kind of encouraged disabled people needs to be integrated in normal labor market, which can be kind of contribution from that review and that can be done through disabled people kind of reporting what needs they have to be accommodated in workplace. So, depending on their disability, some might be just staying on benefits but some might be able to work in normal labor market.
Speaker 4:But the study which critically reviewed this the Black Review and the Obama Review highlights the problem of that policy direction is making the responsibility of disabled people to reporting their needs for their employment more individualized, without recognizing there is still existing societal and structural barrier so when they are reporting their disability and they try to look for jobs in labor market there can be discrimination, maybe kind of sneakily and hidden way in recruitment stage and there were empirical studies which actually looked at and that can be the case.
Speaker 4:And also when they are employed many disabled people are reluctant to report their own disability because they know they might not be positively considered by their employer. And also that kind of policy direction can strengthen existing bias and the stereotypes against disabled people by their managers or their colleagues thinking these people who need adjustment of workplace actually less able, less capable, which is not the case. Just they need additional adjustment rather than they can't do things as much or as well as other colleagues. So I can't make the specific comments about the legislation but there is a kind of tendency of these different palace directions can strengthen certain existing bias in the structural level.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:You've actually illustrated quite a few points that I'd like to draw upon later on, but first of all I want to go back to katie and say, uh, and ask well, good, because we were, we the listeners this podcast don't get to hear the wonderful conversations that we had before we actually did in the studio and we were talking quite at length actually about um, about the access to work scheme, which is a government scheme that is designed to sort of help people with disabilities to actually overcome the costs, or at least some of the costs, of actually being employed, whether that actually is the cost of actually getting to and from work or the cost of some of the specialist equipment they might actually need when they're actually in post in order to be able to do their jobs, actually need when they're actually in post in order to be able to do their jobs. Um, but do you feel, katie, that that this scheme is, is, is adequate, and and and what? What are some of the issues that people experience with it?
Speaker 3:thanks, julian um. Access to work is a brilliant scheme to get disabled people the support that they actually need, so it is great. However, it's incredibly difficult to start, so let me give you my example because it's very current. I have a disability which means that I can only work a short number of hours per week, which is why I need to be working as part of a team, why I need to be working as part of a team. I submitted an Access to Work application on the 30th of January 2024.
Speaker 3:I got a response to say that I would be called within 12 weeks, which I was quite shocked at because I needed to work when I actually submitted the application and I'm a vice president of the Institute of Engineering and Technology and I chair the Equality, diversity and Inclusion Board and I've been part of the work to actually have a disabled engineers network and we have this wonderful network of disabled engineers meeting and one of the engineers in this group was talking about their access to work and they'd been taken on at the same time as another group of engineers and they needed access to work to support them and it meant that they had to wait more than 12 weeks to get the access to work scheme to support them. But it meant that their employer was measuring them directly against the other people that were employed at the same time. But because they didn't have those things that they needed to make sure that they could do a good job, they were measured in the same way but they couldn't do the job. So that was putting the engineer at a real disadvantage.
Speaker 3:For me it took 32 weeks for access to work to actually call me. When they called me I had COVID so I couldn't even speak to them. So it took another two weeks to actually have the conversation. So 34 weeks. But you know, the two weeks extra was my fault really because I was poorly. But essentially between the call on the Tuesday I'd already planned the, the work or the items I needed the support with, and it meant that by the Friday because access to work, access to work, are so efficient, they know exactly what they're doing, they know how to help, they were great in the conversation and it only took 20 minutes. And then by the Friday I'd had then a further two minute conversation to say that everything I'd asked for we could do, and I was going to get a letter to confirm that. But it would take two weeks because they send everything out by second class post. So that is the state of play. Access to work themselves are fantastic.
Speaker 2:The staff at the access to work they're just under such a restrictive way of being able to work so they can't answer the calls that are coming in because there are so many of them, because there are so many disabled people wanting to work, but they need help to be able to do it and building on the conversation earlier, um, particularly what some of the points that you raising and son um, I'm wondering, wondering if there is another issue here that I'm picking up on that employers aren't necessarily aware or as maybe aware as they should do, and this possibly also covers employees as well, because I think part of the problem is actually accessing information as well as actually sort of getting the help and support that you need. But do you feel, for instance, that there is a lack of knowledge amongst employers about employment accommodations I mean, specifically, you know the legislation surrounding reasonable adjustments in the equalities act but and also accessing you know, as we previously mentioned, access to work or other schemes that are designed to help and support people with disabilities into employment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and it gets right back to there. Are people who have physical disabilities and actually, if your building has steps and you do not have a way to get into that building like everyone else gets into the building that is accessible, then you are not allowing that member of staff to work effectively. But just have a think about that, because actually you may end up with a customer who has a physical disability and needs to get in through the accessible route. Do you really want that customer, who might be bringing an awful lot of money to your company, to be having to go via the accessible route, which is via the bins, because that is often the way that I have to go in um, because otherwise it's. You know the steps and we can't, in a wheelchair, can't get up the steps.
Speaker 3:But you also need to consider the people with hidden disabilities, so the people who are neurodivergent, the people who are blind and deaf, the people who can physically get into the building but actually they need additional help within their workplace. This isn't. This is a complicated and complex situation and employers benefit because they actually understand it and they benefit because they are considering the needs of all of their employees and all of their potential customers as well so there's a way, an awareness issue here because, yes, I think so much of the conversation around disability is sort of like defined in terms of what people with disabilities can't do, rather than what we actually can do.
Speaker 2:Uh, as you know, very, very capable people that we are absolutely because actually disabled people are constantly finding solutions.
Speaker 3:We are all solution focused. We find ways to complete a task, complete a project. It might be a different way than somebody without a disability finds, but actually we achieve the solution and we can find a much more innovative way potentially to solve it.
Speaker 2:With that said, do you feel that there are amongst employers and maybe in the world at large really is a continuing sort of like sense that people still have many misconceptions about what people with disabilities can actually do?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, because people, I'm in a wheelchair and I have my wonderful Andrea who comes with me to everything, because there are certain things I don't have dexterity in my hands, so I have no use of my legs and I have very little use of my hands, but I have an awful lot of use of my mouth and my brain and I can get on very well. But I need help with the physical stuff and so Andrea comes with me all the time and people talk to Andrea. I come, like, for example, I go to Tesco's and I pay for my groceries and the money goes back when I'm in Tesco's to my child because she obviously can take that money rather than me. She's 11. That's wrong. Because I'm in a wheelchair, people have an assumption that I am not competent, which is incredibly wrong.
Speaker 2:but it's something that the majority of the population that I've come to um assumes, which is very sad but do you also feel, though I mean I don't that we don't talk enough about the actual costs of disability? So, for instance, we talk about the costs in terms of the cost to making the reasonable adjustments, make it, reconfiguring environments whether that be infrastructure, whether that be transport, whether that be offices that might actually enable people with disabilities to actually access those spaces, but we don't talk enough about the actual costs of not empowering and enabling people with disabilities to be present in the world, ie the actual cost of well, if we're not actually in work, then we're not actually able to contribute exactly, and there must be some extraordinary costs involved with actually sort of like by by not.
Speaker 2:you know, in other words, that the the actual costs of actually not providing us with the ability to actually be present in workplaces is significantly more than actually sort of providing us with the ability to do so, to be able to do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and as well. There are additional costs for people with disabilities. It's an extra 950 pounds a month that we have to pay out for things, because as soon as you put a disabled badge on things, it the the price goes up tenfold. It's insane and I don't really understand why, but that's just the way it is. Um, and so we understand that and we want to work because we need to be able to pay for these more increased prices, and so actually having a job is a real benefit.
Speaker 3:But it's really difficult sometimes and I appreciate that employers might consider it costly to have somebody with a disability working for them, but actually if they've got that attitude, they would essentially be cutting out a quarter of their workforce because you know, we've got 24% of people have a disability. And if you've got that attitude of, oh, I don't want anybody disabled in my workspace because it's you know the costly, somebody with a disability who might work for that company would feel very afraid of actually sharing that they have a disability. But people who have a disability, a hidden disability, who actually share that, they need that extra help. They're incredibly brave and they can bring incredible talents, but we need to nurture them and we need to celebrate them and just to build on that is.
Speaker 2:That is it we need to be better at actually sort of like making a positive case, because, as people with disabilities, we we go for a life of overcoming barriers and challenges and we develop so many skills, so many abilities, so much knowledge, so much experience from overcoming those barriers and challenges that we develop an enormous amount of transferable skills in the process, feed into organisations who are willing to give us opportunities that might enable them to actually grow and develop in ways that they previously wouldn't be able to.
Speaker 3:Absolutely and as we've found, these different solutions, these different ways to achieve something, that extra perspective really enhances the solutions that businesses might be able to provide, and actually that might mean that the business can provide a better solution for their customer, and their customer would really benefit from that.
Speaker 2:Now we were talking about the future, and we have a very interesting project that I'm going to let Ian Sun is going to actually talk a little bit about, which is, as I understand it and you know, join in if I've got this wrong which is a pioneering research project which is focused on actually helping to sort of like literally identify and create solutions for overcoming the problems that people with disabilities face in terms of actually entering into employment within the manufacturing industry.
Speaker 4:The project is funded by Interact, which is ESRC, one of the UK Research Council-led hub, and also funded by Made Smarter. And also funded by Made Smarter, the hub itself has got the aim of increasing digitalization in SMEs in manufacturing industry and any project which can help the digitalization in SMEs will be funded. So our project I will just introduce in very formal way, which included in our proposal. So the aim of the project is to investigate how the use of digital tools can enable a more inclusive workforce in manufacturing. Our project is to shed light on the experience of digital minorities, in our case disabled people, and also to explore how disabled people interact with digital technologies and examine how the technology can be adapted to address any design challenges from their own experience. So that was kind of our official the aim and the rationale of the project. But in terms of why or how we started the project was through Sandpit event. So Sandpit event is usually funder gather, relevant researchers and sometimes like industry or stakeholder partners and we just be there under kind of umbrella, common theme, and then kind of make the project themes and meet like-minded people and our project lead, who is the leader in Strathclyde University? She herself had a disabled child and also she was an engineer and now working in business school as a scholar.
Speaker 4:And during that Sandpit event we looked around really fascinating sophisticated advanced technology manufacturing center and she was pointing out all these amazing robotic research centers and co-votes and 3D printings.
Speaker 4:They don't have any consideration of disabled people. So even the height of the co-vote workstation was not suitable for some wheelchair users because it was too high. It was too high and because she's got a family member who has disability, she was saying what about we look into whether there is possibility of the technology digitalization can enable these disabled people coming into the manufacturing industry. And that was very relevant for industry itself because industry is struggling to attract and find new flux of the talents or workforce. So that was kind of our rationale, the real inspiration of the project and, yeah, we developed the idea into more formal application and how we started this project and one of the key output was the scenario Julian read at the beginning of this podcast and that will be contributing to the Interact own scenario about 2040, the vision about manufacturing industry in the UK. And we kind of wanted to add additional elements about inclusivity, how digitalization can help, not just about productivity but also inclusivity of the industry.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was the behind the story of the project.
Speaker 2:So, is there an ultimate goal to this project or, you know, to put it another way, do you have a desired outcome in mind in terms of something that you're building towards?
Speaker 4:I think our main purpose was there has been a lot of technology development and maybe some of the technology might be even targeting disabled people, but what we found was there is still lack of input from disabled people's own experience and kind of own perception of the technology. And by including their own voice into that technology or digitalization process we might be able to kind of tell people, raise awareness of the society about disabled people's experience, what they actually really need or how they view technology, and that can also help. So without knowing, without being aware of the issues, people wouldn't be able to change their mindset. So hopefully we can raise the awareness and gradually change the mindset of society misconception or stereotypes about disabled people.
Speaker 2:So you mentioned just now actually the need for this project to be informed directly by the experiences of people with disabilities themselves. So, with that in mind, are people with disabilities involved with this in some way or other? I mean either as co-producers or through sharing their lived experience in some way that might help shape and develop the project.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so from the beginning we kind of formed advisory board so initially started with the disabled staff network in the lead principal investigators university which is Strathclyde, and they have, you know, helped us to kind of design the questions for interviews with disabled people and also we took one of the advocate group of the disabled people's employment. Again they helped us to review our research questions and some plans for, for example, like the experiment the day in National Institute for Manufacturing in Scotland. So yeah, they were from the very beginning help for our project design, research, question design, interview and the scenario. And in that process I met amazing additional advisors such as Julian who is co-chair of our own University of Overhampton Disabled Staff Network and I met Katie through another you know contact in the industry and yeah, katie and Julian has been really brilliant advisor for the scenario development and I thank you so much for your help.
Speaker 2:So you're in the process of gathering a lot of invaluable information that's going to actually help you to sort of like you know, properly inform this project in terms of, like, helping to shape and develop that outcome. You were talking about earlier. Shape and develop that outcome you were talking about earlier. But, um, do you have any processes that you're currently relying on in terms of being?
Speaker 4:able to like measure the impacts. So, um, from very kind of research terminology, impact is something kind of long-term goal, so we can't really say what kind of impact we will have. But our our impact goal itself was about really changing the mindset and perception, particularly that of the employers and small and medium enterprises in manufacturing industry. As Katie mentioned, many employers are even maybe a bit afraid of the potential cost having disabled people in their workplace, but through this project we found out there are government support which they can turn to, but just they don't have capacity or they don't have expertise who can tell them. You know there is this kind of government scheme available that is not really difficult or costly process. So hopefully you know our project and kind of our engagement with the relevant stakeholders can change mindset and give more information about including disabled people in their employment.
Speaker 2:Yes, so this project is very, very focused on helping to identify the technological needs for people with disabilities in the future, but also helping to shape people's minds in terms of through the scenario that I read out earlier, giving people a viewpoint, a sense into what it might actually look like and how it might actually enable people, hopefully in the very near future. We don't have to wait too long for this. But one of the obviously one of the problems is with any form of technological development, as we know, is that it's prohibitively expensive in its first initiation, in its first incarnation. So, um, particularly, you know, assistive technology, uh, and because it's aimed specifically at people with disabilities, there's kind of like a limited market for that, even though we should never think about it in those terms. Um, so I'm wondering how can we, you know perhaps, how can we overcome this?
Speaker 3:Well, I think there are so many ways in which, if we consider assistive technology, and then we can use it. Text messaging that was done originally to help deaf people be able to message, but actually we've just developed it and we all use text messages now. I don't think the world would actually work properly if we didn't be able to text folk. So you know, I use assistive technology every day. I cannot use a PC as a normal able-bodied person would, because I can't use my hands to move a mouse. I can't use my hands to move a mouse, I can't use my fingers to type. I mean, I used to be a touch typist. I used to be able to be the person that wrote the notes of the meeting as the meeting was happening. Now I can't. I don't have the facility to be able to do that with my fingers.
Speaker 3:So I use assistive technology with a metal dot that's stuck on my glasses and then a very magic camera that sits on the top of my monitor and that then tracks where the dot is looking. And then I've programmed a block which I've connected to the computer so that's left click, double left click, right click and backspace. And so I programmed that block and then it is a case of I move my head as the cursor to hover over the icon, then I press the button on my block so that it actually does what I need it to, and then I use voice to text technology or the dictate function on my word processing on my spreadsheets so that I can actually get what I want onto the screen. And that is absolutely brilliant. But I couldn't do anything with a computer if I didn't have assistive technology. And the more that we can develop AT and the more that we can actually be encompassing that within our normal world, the cheaper and the better it will be for everyone.
Speaker 3:I was 32 when I became disabled and I was 32 and that is that's. I've got so much more of my life to live, but my my condition meant that I couldn't actually live how I'd assumed I was going to before. So I've had to create and like we were talking about before, different solutions to an issue so that actually I can still live and I can still be a functioning person. I just take an awful lot longer to do things. I can only work 12 hours a week, so I found different ways to be able to do it.
Speaker 4:I think, kind of developing on what Katie said, what we found from both evidence and literature review and our interview with the industry organizations and scientists who actually developing those technology, technology development itself has been really progressed a lot and many scientists would agree a lot of the technology we imagined in our scenario probably will happen very soon or already happening.
Speaker 4:The problem is that technology is not widely used because it's still very expensive. But I think one of the ways to get over that technology will be expensive for specific needs is don't develop technology to target specific needs, more kind of wider group of people that can help existing needs, rather than try to find, like based on medical model, this impairment will need this technology. Then the technology development will be expensive and because that's targeting very narrow market, the technology adaptation will be expensive and that will be rather exclusive than inclusive and that will be rather exclusive than inclusive. So I think our goal or our direction of the project, which will be now moving on to more kind of technology side, is let's think about how we can develop technology in a more inclusive way rather than try to fix the problem and that way, that way trying to increase inclusivity. That doesn't work. It's just too expensive. We are living in the real world, so, yeah, that would be my addition.
Speaker 3:Absolutely and you're not going to. If you think about disability as broken people, you're not going to get a positive solution, whereas actually disabled people have some brilliant strengths. As broken people you're not going to get a positive solution, whereas actually disabled people have some brilliant strengths and because of our disability it's actually made us find ways to be more effective and more efficient. And so why on earth wouldn't you want us to be working with you? Because actually it can help everyone. It can bring different solutions into different perspectives and actually we can get things done much quicker.
Speaker 3:For example, voice to text on the computer. People can talk a lot quicker than they can type. So why on earth wouldn't we use voice to text all the time? It just doesn't make sense to and and I completely appreciate that, oh well, we can't have very noisy offices. No, that's fair enough, but so many people work from home now, so actually it really lends itself to the work from home, um, people who actually they're in their own environment, they can talk all the time and they can tell the computer what they need it to be saying it. It just makes sense. And so I need talk to text because of my disability. But actually it's something that, as we develop it, it can be a real benefit for everyone well, that's so much the story about disability.
Speaker 2:Is that the the, the adaptations we make to the world in terms of changing the physical environment that enables accessibility for people with disabilities has so many additional sort of like benefits to the rest of society? Absolutely, you know we can think in terms of how, for instance, ramps into buildings not only enables people wheelchairs, but it also also enables people with toddlers in pushchairs as well.
Speaker 3:It enables people who are deaf, who are blind, who are deaf, who are talking with their hands. It's better for them to be able to go up a ramp than try to navigate steps. It helps people who are carrying lots of things so they don't have to be tripping over steps. It helps all sorts of things just from a ramp point of view. There are all sorts of different technologies that will benefit everyone, and the more that we can adapt and envelop those technologies within to our normal life, the more it can benefit the whole of society but we were talking just earlier.
Speaker 2:To draw this conversation back a little bit to we're talking about the costs of developing technology, that to enable people with disabilities, because those costs aren't just about the manufacturing of the technology they're not just about actually sort of like bringing that technology to the market.
Speaker 2:It's also the costs of actually buying it and actually using it. As a person with a disability yourself, one of the things I know I got from reading through the scenario was that it isn't just about what a wonderful world will look like in the future, where people with disabilities are actually presented with a variety of technological means to actually enable them within the world they're living in whether that be in terms of actually being at home or whether that might be actually being at work but it's also about the very difficult choices that we have to make because we can't actually have everything, choices that we have to make because we can't actually have everything.
Speaker 2:We have to make very difficult choices about which technology we can and which which technology we need.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and a lot of the time the cost comes into that that as well.
Speaker 3:But we've just got to try and embrace these things and, like the scenario was talking about somebody using AAC to be able to control the manufacturing line. Having somebody in a wheelchair being able to manufacture things and control things through AAC is absolutely fantastic. I know a number of people who use AAC and I think I've spoken to them about this and it really gets them excited because they feel like they're included in this thought process, which is wonderful, because otherwise I'm sure that there are plenty of people listening to this who don't even know what AAC is. But as everybody's seen Rob Burrow, for example, everybody's seen Stephen Hawking, these wonderful people used AAC to be able to communicate, used AAC to be able to communicate, and so actually it's out there and it's been used by people and it gets some fantastic results, yeah, and I think one of the powerful or influential let's say kind of the stakeholder which can make changes more significantly and perhaps a bit fast is government, and policy has got really significant influence.
Speaker 4:So I think government policymakers need to consider the real cost and real benefit.
Speaker 4:So, if you are just looking at the financial cost, okay, if we want to support this I don't know mobility scheme, that will cost in terms of finance X, y, z. But when they are thinking about actual benefit out of that cost, so you can think about that cost as investment, this untapped workforce, untapped talents, into the manufacturing industry or any employment, what kind of value added will be created? Absolutely, if that's considered into policy cost-benefit analysis, the picture will be very different and the government policy will be different.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely that will change the notion of the employers and industries, and perhaps you know people working in that environment as colleagues or managers. Yeah, and that will create more inclusive society.
Speaker 3:The more that we can accept disability as part of life and actually as part of what we're all having to live with, rather than feeling that it's a negative thing. Feel that actually, if we were all very inclusive and we all understood how we could be more inclusive, everything would become cheaper because we would absorb it and it would be part of our daily life. But at the moment, disability is considered something separate to normal life and it can't be because it just is. It's part of the human condition.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this is really interesting. Amongst all the protected characteristics in Equality Act, the disability is the only category where everybody can potentially fall in and people somehow are not aware of other minority characteristics. Researches have been done, people have been advocating their rights, but not much discussion on disability, which is really Absolutely.
Speaker 3:One billion people in the world are declared disabled. That's a huge minority, and it's disability shouldn't be feared, it should be accepted, and we need to make sure that our environment, whether that's online or physical environment, are accessible and inclusive, because then everybody will feel like they belong yeah, and also as well, to go back on that point about, uh, disability in relation to the quality, that it's the only, it's the only protected characteristic in the equalities act, in which equality is not actually the goal it's more about, you know, leveling the playing field.
Speaker 2:I suppose you could define it more as being sort of like equity rather than equality absolutely yeah, and the more we can get, the nearer we can get to equity, the nearer that things will improve but also I go in a very strong sense going back to the scenario, because this is where this whole conversation revolves around that that wonderful vision of the future, that both of you being very instrumental in helping to sort of like, uh, put together, it's that you know.
Speaker 2:It also demonstrates my reading of it, at least, anyway that we know with how, with the aid of assistive technology, both josie and chris have gained a level of autonomy and independence absolutely and you know how this has enabled them further to to have careers, to enjoy social life and they're both like fully sort of like present in the economy of the future which, sadly, not many, many disabled people aren't at present.
Speaker 3:Well, it's not something that we feel is within our grasp, and I was speaking with another disabled friend the other day and he was talking about the fact that people disabled people have lost their ability to believe that they can be included, and that's really sad and we need to make this better, because actually we should be including disabled people because they can add massive value, and so actually what we need to be doing is encouraging disabled people and not telling them. Like at the moment, the feeling within the disabled community is that the government and the public look down on people who are disabled and see that they are a drain on society. Well, actually, we're only a drain on society because society is not accessible. If society actually was accessible, we could go work, we could be part of things, we could get into pubs.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm about to do a piece of work, going around my local environment, like my local towns, with a camera to demonstrate that, oh, I can't get into that shop, I can't get into that shop. I can't get into that shop. I can't get into that shop because they've all got steps. You know, it's just simple, but actually, the more that we can make things accessible, the more that we can actually get disabled people to spend their money. £274 billion a year is not spent because disabled people can't access where they need to be spending that money 274 billion pounds. Why does the purple pound not get spent? Because it's not an accessible website. It's not an accessible store um, thank you everyone.
Speaker 2:Um, and we just had a bit of a quick pause there for a bit of a a toilet break, which we don't normally talk about in these podcasts, but I think in the context of this conversation, I feel like we should. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:But just to explain, um part of my disability I have a spinal cord injury, um, and it's a high spinal cord injury, which is my.
Speaker 3:I don't have the use of my legs and I have limited use of my arms and hands.
Speaker 3:But also, because I have a spinal cord injury, it means that I have no control of my bladder and my bowel and I can't really, my brain doesn't really talk to the rest of my body, so I have what is called a suprapubic catheter, just for people who don't know what that is. It's a pipe that comes directly out of my tummy, um in, and the pipe goes into my bladder and so my bladder has a catheter in it and the catheter comes down my leg, attaches to a bag and the bag goes down my leg and down my trousers. If I want to wear a skirt, I change my bag into a shorter bag so that I can wear a skirt. So it's a really enlivening. It's brilliant. It makes me be able to live the life I want to live and it takes away the difficulty of the disability, because it means I'm not in a wet pad all day, I'm not having to be washed all the time. It means that I can actually live the life I want to, which is fantastic, so back to where we were.
Speaker 2:Um, because we've got to that stage now they're wonderful, to my fate point in the conversation where we actually begin to sort of like imagine and think about the future, um, so we can go back a little bit towards scenario and build on that, so just to get you both thinking around this. So, um, what, what do you feel like the, the world of employment, the future employment landscape, might look like for people with disabilities, and what do you what I mean not only what do you think it might look like, how, how do you think your vision will be compared with how it might actually look? That sounded like a very jumbled sentence, didn't it?
Speaker 3:No, but I think we know what you mean. I'm glad you do. Well, I'd love to go back to the scenario, because when I first read the scenario and then we worked on it, didn't we? And the idea that somebody was thinking that actually a disabled person could work is a whole different world than the world that I live in, whereas people look at me as if, oh you, oh you, poor thing. No, I'm not a poor thing, I'm absolutely fine.
Speaker 3:I go around on my wheelchair. I've got powered wheels. I'm so fast going downhill. I'm faster than you and it's just brilliant. Don't feel sorry for me, include me and talk, talk to me, but having the scenario that had disabled people using an assistive robot and using a self-driving car and using AAC to be able to tell the line what they wanted the line to do was just tremendous. And that is something that I would love to have as an ambition for the uk in the future, because actually, yes, it might require investment, um, but actually a lot of that stuff will really help the whole population. It'll really help everyone if we can develop this wonderful technology and really as engineers and technologists, because they are the only people who will understand what actually needs to happen.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and in the scenario I wanted to be a little bit practical as well. 2014 is not hugely ahead future, and I kind of intentionally chose the age of the main character, who is kind of school age now, which means they have experienced a little bit segregated education because of their disability. So, although technology might be developed and even maybe education system might be different in 2040, those who are in kind of workforce age might have had already this, you know, biased kind of education system. And I think, if we really want to achieve this really amazing, desirable future, that social and societal norms and perceptions need to be changed, and that's quite a slow process.
Speaker 3:Hence, I think it's quite important to start the conversation as early as possible so that societal change can be, you know, kind of in parallel with technology development which is so you know developing fast Because you think you know kind of in parallel with technology development, which is so you know developing fast, because you think you know, the young people who are in the scenario are actually going to be just starting high school today and actually so in 2040, they are going to be in the working world. And if those disabled people, or those people who have a disability today, they might not have the disability yet, they might develop that disability. And so they're thinking today they're at high school, they're thinking, oh gosh, what do I need to do for my gcses? What should I? What subjects should I be, should I be concentrating on? How can I be doing this? And then suddenly life chucks a ball at them, massive curve ball then says all right, you've got a disability now. Well, that's crazy. What am I going to do now? How am I going to do this?
Speaker 3:Um, and you know, I was speaking to an engineer. She's in her second year of engineering now. She's 31. She's in her second year because she had to retrain, because four years ago she developed a disability and suddenly she now can't do what she used to do, what she'd originally trained to do, because she's now in a wheelchair. So she's decided to retrain as a mechanical engineer to help the mechanical engineering industry understand how they work. But she's working in the water industry and working with other people in wheelchairs in the water industry to make the water industry more inclusive, which is fantastic, but we need to try and develop these things so that it benefits everyone on that.
Speaker 2:This nicely segues into it's not very often I get to use that word, segues into a question I've had burning at the back of my mind throughout all this conversation, which is basically that we're talking a lot. We have talked a lot at length about the benefits of literally enabling people with disabilities to to be more present in and active in, the workplaces yeah, not just now, but certainly into the future. But what about for people who don't have disabilities? Why do you think it's important for everyone that people with disabilities have access to the same employment opportunities that pretty much everybody else takes for granted?
Speaker 3:well, I think it's really important that people with disabilities have the same opportunities that everyone else just takes for granted, because they have a right to life and a right to live and a right to work and a right to contribute, um, and they all want to. You know, there is this feeling that disabled people don't want to contribute. They absolutely do. Everybody I've ever spoken to wants to contribute to society, but actually society doesn't let them like this, where it shows and demonstrates so clearly that people with disabilities can contribute to society and can be considered to be part of society. Because, you know, we all can contribute, but the health model of disability really shuts us out. If we've got a disability under the health model, we need to be fixed.
Speaker 3:Well, you're not going to fix my condition, so I should theoretically be shoved onto a pile in the corner and not looked at, because you know it's not nice to look at somebody with in a wheelchair, is it? And I just think, well, that's just utterly ridiculous, because Andrea and I, we go, and we I dress up in big ball gowns, I do all sorts of lovely stuff and it's absolutely fantastic. Why on earth shouldn't I be included and why on earth shouldn't I live my life, but people don't want to include people with disabilities because it's thought of as unpleasant. And disability is not unpleasant, it's part of the human condition and so actually, the more we can be celebrating people with disabilities and welcoming them and moving towards feeling like they belong, the better our society will be in the future, because actually all of these adaptations that we do for people with disabilities benefit everyone in the long term.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think about the right yes you know, human has right to work and through work, as you said, you contribute to society and also you find, probably, fulfillment about your authenticity and desire. So I think for me, disabled people should live a life maybe a bit different from different individuals. Not disabled people's life, and I think that's kind of clearly having separate image. Okay, these people are different or separate people and they live just a separate life. But no, they live a life which is different and the individual has got all different life and disability is part of certain individuals rather than kind the kind of segregated or separate type of the people.
Speaker 3:Including everyone and getting rid of the segregation. We've done that in so many different things, so why don't we do that with disability? Because it makes the whole population better.
Speaker 2:So how do we create an accessible world for everyone? So what do we need to do, whether that's as individuals, as employers or even as listeners to this podcast to make this happen?
Speaker 4:I think we had this conversation and kind of we summarized what kind of key takeaways we wish all the listeners or you know anybody who can come across with this conversation is. You know people with disabilities should be valued rather than considered as different or unpleasant things, and they should be seen as contributors rather than somebody who needs help or who needs kind of looked after. And you know technology development is important and there is huge potential. Technology can help these disabled people to be included. But technology development only wouldn't fix that problem. And I think definitely the societal kind of norms and which, can you know, help to demolish the barriers and the constraints existing in the systems. So for me that needs to be go in parallel rather than just focusing on technology development only. Or, you know, try to change kind of the social norm only. They should be in hands in hands, yeah absolutely and actually we can.
Speaker 3:As disabled people, we can actually bring more to the table, and there are a number of disabled people who technology doesn't provide a solution for because technology is not yet developed enough to be able to include them, and so actually what we need to be doing is including disabled people in the development of technology so that actually it's fully inclusive. And that's so exciting because it can provide even more solutions, even more adaptations, and it gives the engineering and technology world such a brilliant future, and I think the UK is really positive in being able to do that. We just need to ensure that our society doesn't stand in its own way because it's not helping itself, and the more that we can include disabled people in all of society, the better, because actually will benefit everyone thank you both.
Speaker 2:Um, thank you both for being such wonderful guests today and that's such a wonderful way to end the conversation, by the way.
Speaker 2:But thank you both for being such wonderful guests and for your amazing thoughts and insights that have helped make this a really informed and inspiring discussion. And it kind of feels like this the little steps that we all have to take in terms on that journey of realizing that scenario I read at the beginning have already started and we're well on the way to sort of like literally embracing a much more accessible world for everybody, sort of like literally embracing a much more accessible world for everybody. So thank you both for your again, for your, your, your input and and your thoughts and discussions into this discussion. So that's it for this episode, everybody. And just to remind you all that there are many, many, many more uh podcast episodes available on the diverse hub Hub podcast. Just search for Diverse Hub on whatever platform you choose to actually access your podcasts from. So that's it for today's session, but please look out for future episodes as they become available. Thank you.