78: Listening for God with More Than Your Ears with Pastor Heather Mandala

Ever wondered what "listening for God" really means? On this episode we explore this often-used but rarely defined phrase. Pastor Heather Mandala shares with us insights and personal experiences of how God's nudges can urge us out of our comfort zones to grow in unexpected ways. Discover how vulnerability, effort, and trust in God can transform your spiritual journey, pushing you to embrace challenges that foster true growth.

Thanks for being a part of the HOPE community as we continue conversations about faith and hope! You can learn more at meethope.org or find us on socials @meethopechurch. Join in for worship on Sundays at meethope.live! Have a question? Contact us at podcast@meethope.org.

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Transcript

Intro: 0:03

Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast, where we have conversations about faith and hope. Hope is one church made of people living out their faith through two expressions in person and online. We believe a hybrid faith experience can lead to a growing influence in our community and our world for the sake of others.

Ashley Black: 0:22

Welcome to Hope hey everyone, Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast. My name is Ashley Black and I'm going to be your host today. I'm excited to be here today. I am here with fellow staff member Heather Mandela. Hey Heather, hi Ashley, how are you doing Good? Thank you, glad to be here. Yeah, so most of the first quarter half we're halfway through the year almost Most of the first half of this year on the podcast we've been talking with a lot of guests who are members of our Hope community and that's been really exciting.

Heather Mandala: 1:00

I've really enjoyed it.

Ashley Black: 1:01

And we also thought it would be good to loop some of our staff back in just to hear from all of your perspectives on different things that have to do with faith and hope, and so one thing you and I were talking about recently is different phrases that we like say all the time, like we almost say them.

Intro: 1:21

Christianese.

Ashley Black: 1:23

Yeah, like we say it and we don't actually think deeply about what it means, because we hear it so much and it's just things we assume we should be doing. And then sometimes it like I know for me, sometimes if I'm like leading a small group, I'll say it and someone will be like but what does that mean?

Intro: 1:37

what does that?

Ashley Black: 1:38

or like they am I doing that right? And um, I really love any chance to kind of break down that like myth or narrative about something like that.

Heather Mandala: 1:46

Yes, it's like one of those words when you've said something so many times you don't even know what it means anymore. And as Christians, we do that right, we say things and we're like, oh well, you should be praying in the spirit or listening to God or whatever it is, and we don't even really know what that means anymore.

Ashley Black: 2:02

Yeah, it becomes like so much part of our language that we don't maybe define it. So we're going to talk about one of those concepts today and that's the idea of listening for God. So that's a phrase I feel like I hear a lot, especially in like a small group context or on a Sunday morning if we're like praying or we're in worship, or really just in like Christian culture in general. It'll be like how are you listening for God? What are you hearing God saying? Um, and we just are like we know, like being in relationship with God, that we're always supposed to be like listening for God, um, but so when you hear that phrase, what does that mean for you?

Heather Mandala: 2:37

So I think it probably does some degree, depends on who's saying it.

Ashley Black: 2:40

Right.

Heather Mandala: 2:40

So, um it. So when I hear it in the global context so it was a big mega church speaker talking about it it might have less of a personal impact than when I'm actually talking one-on-one in a small group with someone and I'm saying what have you heard? Or are you listening for God? And for me personally, listening for God is complex. Yeah, and one of the last things that it involves is my actual ears.

Ashley Black: 3:10

Wait, wait, that's so important, like what you just said, because it does feel like it does. It feels like a phrase that it sounds like it should just be simple, yeah, and it's complex, like you said?

Heather Mandala: 3:21

Yeah, it's not, and we say listening, but the reality is it has very little to do with hearing actual words necessarily, and more to do with intuiting.

Ashley Black: 3:31

Yeah, like sensing or perceiving or noticing. Noticing, I love that.

Heather Mandala: 3:38

And when we first started Tomorrow's Hope, we would talk about it in terms of um nudges, and so you know, I had a teacher back there he was Barbara, and she would always talk about it got the holy nudge like a God nudge, and so I feel like that's one of the ways that I've leaned into um talking about it. Vacation Bible school with our kiddos we talk about God's sightings.

Ashley Black: 4:04

Oh, I love that connection. I've never put that together Right and.

Heather Mandala: 4:07

I do love that we're talking about it in terms of our senses, because it's the only concrete way we, as people, know how to describe it. But the reality is it's not necessarily a five sense driven thing. So for me, listening to God often has to do with what is that driving, burning thing that's going on inside of? Me right now, and so where am I feeling? Like I have got to do something about this.

Heather Mandala: 4:35

Whether it's a conversation with a person I need to have, or an area where I see a need that it's just eating away at me. So those, those tend to be the ways that God works in my life and starts to nudge me.

Ashley Black: 4:52

Yeah, yeah, I know for me. I try to pay attention to those two and I often have found over time that usually it is something like that that I necessarily wouldn't choose first.

Heather Mandala: 5:06

Yeah.

Ashley Black: 5:07

So, like I wouldn't choose to think about or talk to a specific person that is coming up a lot in my brain, or like a specific theme in my life or an event or something like that, I'm like this isn't my default to do this thing, yes, and it's hard Usually. Yeah, yeah, usually I'm like no, thank you.

Heather Mandala: 5:27

Yeah, yeah, it's like oh that's gonna be a lot of work you know like that's gonna be a challenging conversation or that's gonna require me to really be vulnerable, or that's gonna require me to whatever, fill in the blank, um. So, yeah, it's usually stretching, it's usually um gonna require me to to give of myself, yeah, and to trust god in that process.

Ashley Black: 5:50

Um, yeah, I like that stretching, giving of yourself, all things that like, as humans, are not maybe our first like instinct to do like we want to like often want to like kind of make sure that we take care of ourselves, because that's kind of human instinct and it's often like pushing you outward from yourself.

Heather Mandala: 6:10

Yes, and the reality is, I find so often that it does meet my personal needs too, in the sense of I am blessed and I do feel full and I do find peace and I do find joy in doing those things that God's calling me to do.

Heather Mandala: 6:27

But I usually have to get past myself for that to happen, if that makes sense. So I have to be willing to take the risk, take the chance, take the plunge. And then I'm like, oh, this is amazing. God had these new relationships for me that have been such a blessing to my heart, or God has brought me into a situation now where I am understanding myself and those around me in such a deeper way, because he invited me to be vulnerable. Um and so it is. It ultimately often does care for my soul.

Ashley Black: 6:58

Yeah, no, I love that.

Heather Mandala: 7:00

But at the front end of it.

Ashley Black: 7:01

It may not look like what we think it should be.

Heather Mandala: 7:04

Yeah.

Ashley Black: 7:04

Yeah, I love that. Is there anything you can think of in your like recent day-to-day life where you've had this experience of like you felt nudged on something and it was like not your instinct, but then it filled you up like you just said yeah. So I mean it you up like you just said yeah.

Heather Mandala: 7:25

So I mean it's pretty much the story of my life.

Ashley Black: 7:29

That's why I asked you to talk about this.

Heather Mandala: 7:31

Yeah, it is, it is, it is. So I mean I feel like the one that was the most, that's been the most glaring, where I was like no, no, Actually there's been a few, but even just moving back down. No, actually there's been a few, but even just moving back down. So when Kevin and I first got married, we were living up in North Jersey. I was working up in North Jersey at a school and then moved into a church up in North Jersey where I was working and moving down here was not in my game plan and Kevin had mentioned that.

Heather Mandala: 7:58

he said I really think we're supposed to be moving back down towards your family and all that kind of stuff.

Heather Mandala: 8:02

And I'm like no, we're good, Thanks. And moving back down towards your family and all that kind of stuff, and I'm like no, we're good, Thanks, Um. And you know, over time, as Kevin kept saying like no, I really think this is where God's leading, and I kept going like Nope, Nope, Nope. Well, I mean, finally we said let's just try it out, send out some feelers, whatever, um, put the house up, see what happens. The house sold in three days. Kevin had like five job opportunity.

Heather Mandala: 8:21

Like it was like, clearly what God was doing Right. So, so that you know, goes back 20 years now, 20, 22 years now, but, um, recently I think it's been grad school and, um, I had not. I knew that God was pushing me to take the next step, um, and I still don't know exactly what he wants me to do with it. Is that hard? Yes, yes, yes. How many different ways can?

Ashley Black: 8:54

I say the word. So you were in graduate school? For what?

Heather Mandala: 8:57

I'm in graduate school for clinical mental health counseling. So, um, what that means is, when I graduate, I take the NCE. It's part of my graduate requirements and that is the national counselors exam. So I will become a licensed associate counselor upon the completion of this degree, which will be in about two years, and will still then have about 3000 clinical hours to put in before I become an LPC, which is a licensed professional counselor. Basically, it's the difference between working with someone and working independently.

Heather Mandala: 9:28

So, um, but I knew that taking these course, these courses, that pursuing this was only going to make me better at what I'm already doing. So I felt like, okay, god, god is clearly leading me in this direction, to make me better at what I'm already doing. So I felt like, okay, god, god is clearly leading me in this direction to make me better at what I already do. But I also know he's got other things in store and, um, that he wants to use this in the larger community and in our community, and I don't know exactly what that looks like, um, but it's one of those voice things. You know, god was very clear with me. I'm not telling you until you trust me and take that first step.

Intro: 10:08

Yeah.

Heather Mandala: 10:08

You know, and I think I am too old for this have I said that recently. I am too old for that.

Ashley Black: 10:15

I think that's really important because I'm sure, like when we are trying to practice this practice of listening for God, it's really easy for us to come up with lots of reasons why not to do something.

Heather Mandala: 10:26

Gosh, yes, I don't want to go this in debt for graduate school at this age. That's craziness. You know it's not, this was not in our plan, but I know it's where God's leading and I know he's going to be faithful. And how do I know that? So, yeah, that's what I was going to ask you next. So it starts for me personally and again, it's going to be different for different people but for me personally, it starts with that niggle in the back of my brain, that idea, that thought, that desire, and then it grows to the point where it's like this is what I want, Like his will somehow then morphs into yeah, this is what I want, even if I don't know exactly what it is or how to get there. And then I take it to other people. And I take it to other people and I start asking them what do you think?

Heather Mandala: 11:13

Does this make sense, does it feel like it could possibly be what God's calling? And you know? So I take it to people who know me, who know my situation, who know the church. I took it to my financial guy. Yeah, I mean, that's right, that world advice, like practical advice. Like we took it, we kind of did the tour of like hey, what do you think about this? And everyone was a resounding yes. This feels like the right step for you, this feels like the right choice for you, this feels like the right next thing across the board.

Ashley Black: 11:48

Yeah, which matters, because there's like, listening for God doesn't happen in isolation. No, I think there's like this weird concept that we think it happens like only when we're by ourselves in the woods, which is possible and is beautiful, and also like we can hear from God through other people.

Heather Mandala: 12:03

Some of them, yeah, and often it is through other people, you know, or it's that we get that niggle, that idea, that hint, and someone confirms it for us, sometimes even before we knew it was something we needed, confirmed, you know.

Ashley Black: 12:19

I mean, I tell people all the time that's how I am our communications director, cause I said hey. I said to Heather for those who are listening hey, this thing has been bothering me, I think I'm supposed to do this job. And Heather immediately went. I've been thinking the same thing and I went okay, there's God. So because you were a trusted confidant in listening to God, so yeah, I'm just here thinking like I should be interviewing you because this is yes, We'll do that next.

Heather Mandala: 12:42

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's that yes, that confirmation from people who know you and trust you and know where your heart is too Like your heart is to please God, right. And so when your desire is to please God and you ask people to speak into that, it allows them to say, yeah, I see this in you, I people to speak into that it allows them to say yeah, I see this in you, um, I see this gifting in you, and that's huge.

Ashley Black: 13:07

That's huge. No, I love that, Um. Is there anything else that, then, like, leads you to take that next step?

Heather Mandala: 13:18

Um. So I think that I tend to go into information gathering mode once I feel like, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to go. So for me. Once I felt like, all right, I'm supposed to go into clinical mental health counseling, this is what's supposed to get my degree in. Then it was let me gather as much information about the trainings, the places, the opportunities post-graduation as possible.

Heather Mandala: 13:40

So I spent probably three or four months just going down that rabbit hole and trying to determine, um yeah, and how God could use it within the context of, which is ironic because really, God's going to do whatever he wants and he doesn't need me to plan, I mean that's really good.

Ashley Black: 13:55

So you just said two things I think are really important One, god's going to use it and how God has a plan for it, and sometimes it's good that we don't know right. We can plan to the best of our abilities. And also but I really love that you just shared that that next process took you three to four months. I think like there's something so true about remembering that like just because we're listening for God doesn't mean we're going to always know something right away.

Heather Mandala: 14:20

No.

Ashley Black: 14:20

Like there have been things in my life that I've been listening or paying attention to. Hey, that thing keeps coming up over there for years before I know what, how to use it, how to make it happen God wants with it.

Heather Mandala: 14:31

Yeah, oh yeah. I mean I think about the preschool. So you know, going back 15 years. We sat I sat in Jeff's office 19 years ago and we laughed about how badly preschools and churches go and how we would never. And we were so glad that we didn't have a preschool, because it can go so wrong.

Ashley Black: 14:50

As a preschool mom, I'm so glad we have one, yeah, three years after that.

Heather Mandala: 14:55

So you know, fast forward. And about 15 years ago now, I sat there and said Jeff, we're supposed to have a preschool, like God's been putting the niggle in my brain. And then everybody around me we had a mops program. At that point in time we had a lot of young families and everybody was asking where can I send my kids for a Christian preschool? Where can I send my kids for a Christian preschool? And there just wasn't a place that I felt like I could endorse. And so I walked into Jeff's office and said Jeff, I think we're supposed to open a preschool, but that took a year of planning.

Intro: 15:22

Right and it didn't just happen.

Heather Mandala: 15:24

No, it was a year of him saying, all right, find places that are doing it well, figure out what we do and don't want to do, get, make a plan, get educated again. Is that fact gathering? And yeah, it really was. It was a year, a year-long process of figuring out what the demographics were and presenting it to lead team and going back and saying why is there a need? How can we make this work? Yeah, um, talking with preschool directors all around the area, um, learning, going to the preschool director school and I I mean legit, like through the state. There was a ton, there was a ton of stuff that went into that before it happened. And then he's transformed it every year since to look like what God wants it to look like, far beyond where I could have possibly taken it.

Ashley Black: 16:06

I love that because so Jeff recently was on the podcast and was talking a little bit about what's going on for him in his role and in his life as he looks towards retirement, and he used this phrase actively waiting.

Ashley Black: 16:18

And when you were just talking right now. I think that might be a good place to kind of start, to end up with this conversation is that there's this component of listening for God, that, like we don't just sit still for God, that like we don't just sit still Like we should, we should be taking time in our life to be still with God and remember that, like God, we can't do more than God can, but, um, but also we can't just like freeze and not do our day to day life. Yes, so what? What does that look like?

Heather Mandala: 16:49

I guess like so I think, if I was going to talk to someone about, what does that mean in your own life, right? So I think there are a couple of things that I would encourage. I would encourage them to reach out to people close to them and ask them to start praying alongside you.

Ashley Black: 17:08

Yeah.

Heather Mandala: 17:08

Right.

Intro: 17:09

That's so important.

Heather Mandala: 17:09

So say, hey, I'm really wrestling with what's next, or here's where I think God's leaving, but I'm not sure. Here's what I think. I have this burning desire and I'm trying to determine if it's God or me. So these are the things that are going in your head. I want to say like, hey, bring three, four, five, six trusted people. You have a small group. Bring it to your small group. Ask them to start praying into it. Just start praying about it. Start asking them to ask God to make it clear if this is something you're supposed to be doing and see what happens as you start talking about it. Do people start getting excited and galvanized around this idea, or are you meeting with some resistance, you know? Or are they saying like, yeah, but don't you think God's leading here first, or whatever? Like you've got to feel that out and then start looking in scripture? Is there stuff that we can glean from the way Jesus did ministry? How did Jesus interact with people? Were these things in line with what we feel like God is leading us towards?

Heather Mandala: 18:06

So, it's got to be. He's not going to lead us away from his nature right, which is to love him and love others, and so we've got to keep that in check. So keep checking with scripture how did God do his ministry, and is what you're being called to do in line with that, and then start looking for him to speak into your situation? So what I mean by that is bringing people in that might give you a little nugget of information that you're like oh my gosh, that plays exactly into what I was just thinking.

Heather Mandala: 18:37

You know these coincidences, that I don't believe in coincidences, but these coincidences that keep happening, that are all pointing in one direction, like okay so let's, let's take all of these things and start to like write it, journal it, look at it, talk to other people about it and see where it's pointing.

Ashley Black: 18:55

Yeah yeah, I love that, especially because I think in doing that not only do we have people who support us, we get to support others too, because normally, naturally, that conversation turns into well. And also here can you pray for this for me?

Ashley Black: 19:08

too, like here's where I've been wondering, or dreaming or or trying to pay attention and or feeling like God's asking me to do something, and then it becomes this like supportive community and and sometimes sometimes you're never you're surprised by what comes up like that oh, this person is also hearing this, a similar thing, and now we're doing this together or you know, I don't know, I've had those instances it is.

Heather Mandala: 19:34

And that's the other thing, like if, if whatever you think you're hearing is making you isolated.

Intro: 19:39

Nah no, isolation is not from God.

Heather Mandala: 19:43

We are meant to be in community. So like that for me is a big key. Is this going to bring me deeper into community with others and with God and keep pushing into that? Like make sure that you've got people around you, that's key, yeah.

Ashley Black: 19:56

No, I love that. I love all of that. I feel like we could keep talking about this for a really very long time, but just like to kind of sum up a little bit of what we talked about. That I think is so important is one this idea that when you hear the words listening for God, it's not really listening with your ears, it's sensing with your mind or your body and your heart, and it's looking for God with your eyes and it's talking to people with your mouth and it's living your day-to-day life and just trying to pay attention. And I think that is so important.

Heather Mandala: 20:27

Yeah, and it's not necessarily going to come Now. Look, quietness, stillness. This is vital, right, because our brains, our lives are crazy. But it's not necessarily in the stillness that I hear it, but it's in the stillness that I start to let go of my agenda.

Ashley Black: 20:44

Yeah. So you can like sift out what's mine and what's God and you can practice like the trust piece. Yeah.

Heather Mandala: 20:50

The trust piece and the letting go of. Okay, I just need to if none of this comes to fruition. Lord God, you are still good and I trust you. So how do I let go of that all so that I can be ready to receive what he has for me, right? Because so often it's not exactly what I anticipate?

Ashley Black: 21:07

Yeah, I love that. So if someone's listening right now and there's something they are maybe wrestling with or they want to share it with somebody else, I mean I'm happy. I know either you or I would say sure, email me and I'm happy to pray with you or talk with you about it or point you towards other people in this community that would also do the same thing with you and I know you always would say join a small group, because that's another place to just work out not only like what's going on for you and God, but also just to get to know God better.

Ashley Black: 21:42

I really believe that the more we know like the character of God, the more we're able to see God in our lives and then it's easier to trust him. I think, Agreed yes. Do you have any other, like last things you would throw in there for someone? Yeah, Community.

Heather Mandala: 21:59

Get in, get plugged in with people, be regularly touching base with them, be pushing yourself.

Ashley Black: 22:06

Yeah.

Heather Mandala: 22:07

It can be really easy to to get worried about our own limitations and to think that our own um, that we have to know the skills that we have now aren't enough, right.

Heather Mandala: 22:22

And so we say there's no way I could do this, cause I just don't know enough, or I'm not smart enough or I don't you know, it's just too big Um. You don't have to know it all right now. You don't have to do it all right now. What is one next thing that helps you learn more, know more, grow more closer to others, closer to God?

Ashley Black: 22:42

Yeah, and I would say too, just to throw this in there if we're in a place where we feel like we're not quote unquote hearing from God, or having a hard time seeing God. Sometimes it's like that ordinary everyday, just like taking, just like stepping out anyway.

Heather Mandala: 23:00

Yeah.

Ashley Black: 23:02

And still looking.

Heather Mandala: 23:03

You just keep moving and you keep looking.

Ashley Black: 23:04

And trusting that one. God is, I believe, already with us. It's just sometimes harder to see him. But also in that practice I found God always shows up.

Heather Mandala: 23:16

Yes, and I also believe that when we ask people to do that with us, he uses them to show us where God is when we are not able to see ourselves. Yeah for sure, yeah for sure. So again community, community, community. A broken record? Yeah, no, I love that, I like. Yeah, again community, community, community.

Ashley Black: 23:31

Broken record. Yeah, no, I love that. I'm like, yeah, so, yeah, we could keep talking about this. We probably will. Another time, I'd love to explore with you, maybe over the summer, another phrase or two that we say so simply and yet there is so much complexity to it. So if anyone listening has a phrase like that, and you're like what does that actually?

Intro: 23:48

mean.

Ashley Black: 23:54

Please email us at podcast at meethopeorg, and we will. Maybe we'll talk about it For those of you listening. Thank you for being a listener. We would love it if you would go on Apple iTunes and give us five stars and subscribe to the podcast. That's how we help other people find the podcast too, or you can also share it with a friend, heather. Thanks for having this conversation with us today, anytime. And for having me we look forward to on socials at meethopechurch.