Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn
The Year of Menopause Session 2: Cultural Manifestations of Menopause
The Year of Menopause returns with Dr. Toni Otway as she joins the Besties to explore different cultural ideologies of menopause.
• Western societies often frame menopause as women being "put out to pasture" after serving their reproductive purpose
• Many cultures including the Japanese, African, and Mayan societies celebrate menopause as a time for gaining wisdom and elevated social status
• Medical training historically provided minimal education about menopause, focusing only on biological aspects
• Western medicalization often creates anxiety that may worsen menopausal symptoms compared to cultures that embrace the transition
• The Year of Menopause series will continue breaking down menopause topics throughout 2025
Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause
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Hey Ange.
Speaker 2:Hey Les, how are you? We were laughing so you guys got the tail end of me trying to sing. I was trying to sing the monkeys song. Is it the monkeys? I?
Speaker 1:guess, then it's on her face yes, now.
Speaker 2:I'm a believer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Welcome. It's before my time. How about that?
Speaker 2:I'd like you to believe that lie. Such a bold-faced lie. Such a bold-faced lie.
Speaker 1:Hi everybody, Welcome to another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 2:I'm Anjala and that's Leslie, my best friend of almost 50 years. My best friend of almost 50 years. We are two free-thinking 60-something-year-olds and our podcast just takes you on topics that are of interest to us. We go deep, we're not surface people and we are back with Dr Toni Otway. If you remember, she was with us a few weeks ago to introduce the year of the menopause, which is a program that an organization that she is one of, the um I believe she's a founding member.
Speaker 3:Yes, not a founding, no just just one of the people, just one of the people that joined in after Dr Bruce Got you.
Speaker 2:Okay, Well, she's back and we're going to go really deep on a specific area of menopause and I'm going to let the two doctors take lead and, as usual, I will poke at them from the lay person's perspective, you know, because sometimes they get into their lingo and all the things and I'm like no, no, no no, but have no fear, because this is going to be informative.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you're going to come away knowing more about menopause and this specific area of menopause than you knew coming in. So before I start talking about our jump into the topic, I just want to reintroduce our guest. So let me just pull up a bio real quick. So, dr Toni Otway is a board certified obstetrician and gynecologist and she's currently residing and practicing in New Jersey. And she's currently residing and practicing in New Jersey. Dr Tony received her undergraduate degree in Florida and she received her medical degree at the University of Miami, where she did her training in Staten Island. So now that she's come closer to home, she has been practicing here in New Jersey and serving mostly underprivileged women of color in all of their needs in terms of obstetrician and gynecology. Dr Otway currently is a Senior Medical Director for Horizon, blue Cross, blue Shield of New Jersey. I welcome you to Dr Otway, and this lovely lady is Dr Otway.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you for the introduction. Just one correction. I actually do not practice anymore. I'm just the medical director at Horizon, so I gave up a few years ago. Notice how she says I'm just, I'm just Like at Horizon, so I gave up a few years ago.
Speaker 1:Notice how she says I'm just.
Speaker 3:I'm just Like oh, this old thing I heard the just, but we get it.
Speaker 2:This is an overachiever. I heard the just.
Speaker 1:Just like you, I heard it too, just like you did.
Speaker 2:Oh, my Listen not on our watch will women get minimized Not on our watch where women get minimized, not on our watch, I got you. I hear you yes, okay, got it.
Speaker 1:Because your impact has moved necessarily from the clinical arena, but you're really impacting our healthcare. For Blue Cross, blue Shield. Right, trying they absolutely need your voice in that regard, so we thank you for that, and it is not just what you do. We appreciate you.
Speaker 2:And wait a minute. Remember the last time that she was here. She mentioned that she had a talk for her colleagues and like 200 people showed up. Yes, you make an impact wherever you are, and we just want to just just nip that in the bud.
Speaker 1:OK, ok, ok, so the besties, Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn. We are privileged to collaborate with two organizations the New Jersey Black Women Physicians Association, of which I am also a member, and the New Jersey Medical Association also I am a member, and these two organizations are important. We bring important voices to healthcare and medicine, not only locally here in New Jersey but throughout the country. We are leading Black physicians and we bring our voice, our hearts and our expertise to medical care across the country and especially to people whose voices are not always heard and who are underserved. So with that, we have collaborated with these organizations to speak about menopause, and the program is entitled the Year of Menopause. Our intention is to bring you information monthly on different topics of menopause and, as I said previously I know you are going to leave here changed why? Because I bet you didn't know that menopause affects men, women and those who love, those people who knew, who knew you know, who knew this lady knew, and others so.
Speaker 1:I'm going to stop speaking and I bring to you Dr Toni Atway.
Speaker 3:Thank you for that introduction, and so what we would like to in our lead up to all the other things that we're going to do, you know, for the coming podcast, is we want to just talk about the cultural differences and attitudes about menopause that run throughout the world. So you know, I think there's a huge difference, you know, between Western and Eastern and the other societies, as well as within our own diaspora of black women, american black women.
Speaker 2:West Indian black women, African black women.
Speaker 1:West Indian black women, African black women, as well as all the other cultures that are out there.
Speaker 3:So there's huge difference, I mean, and menopause affects everybody differently. But one of the things that I would like to just, you know, explore a little today is just how we perceive it culturally, racially, the differences that we have, and also on the aspects of the care that we get, the disparities in care that we get, based on the fact that you know, racially, culturally, all those differences also. So I think, as a Western thing, menopause is really seen as women. You've served your purpose, so now, please, you know, step aside.
Speaker 2:Putting you out to pasture.
Speaker 3:Putting you out to pasture. Putting you out to pasture, absolutely. That's how it's seen in the Western society and it's seen as something that's something to be scared of, something to fear. It's this taboo that you know, after you go through menopause, you're no longer significant and that's how it's really seen within this Western society. And, unfortunately, black women within the society have lost, you know, the cultural aspects of it that they would have had if they were still in Africa or South America or whatever. They've lost all of that, which is a huge shame, but this really should be seen as a profoundly useful and spiritual time. That's how a lot of the cultures around the world see this, and it should be seen as a transformative time from your old self to a new, more powerful person, a powerful version of yourself. That's what should be seen as, because now you're freer to do a lot of the things that you probably weren't free to do before. It's one less thing that you have to worry about every single month.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:For a lot of reasons there, for a lot of reasons.
Speaker 3:A lot, a lot of reasons. I'll try to control what's. Yeah, try to control.
Speaker 1:But I'll just tell you a funny story. I entered menopause rather late later than most of my peers, and I was. I think 60 and still having my monthly cycle and I knew that I did not want to buy the large pack of sanitary napkins and every time I would buy like 12, like a travel size I'm like. As God is my witness, this will be the last package.
Speaker 3:I purchase.
Speaker 1:And now, the beauty, though, of those extra sanitary napkins is when I have urine leaks there they are there, you go there you go Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You switched it. Yes, exactly, you just switched it up a little bit, they're multi-purpose.
Speaker 3:There you go. Absolutely, you switched it. Yes, exactly, you just switched it up a little bit Multi-purpose.
Speaker 2:Multi-purpose hey, reuse, recycle, upcycle I thought you were going to say that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, you always have packages that you give to the other house. So I thought you would say that you kind of packaged them up.
Speaker 1:I need them now, when I laugh too much.
Speaker 3:Right Alright, I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I think within this Western patriarchal society it's seen as a medical condition. But's it's not. It's not a medical condition it's a natural process that we go through, just like when, um, you know, we go through puberty and we're, we're, we start up here is this is just a natural process. It should not be seen as just a medical condition one, because it it, it affects all of our bodies. So are you, you're telling me you've got to treat everything?
Speaker 1:so it's it's.
Speaker 3:It's not, I mean, even like a japanese culture. They didn't. They never even had a word for hot flashes. It was really always to be hot. To be hot from wearing too many clothes or drinking alcohol is it was always. It's just recently, in a few years, that the Japanese women have actually had a word for hot flashes was never actually seen. Condition yeah, okay. Now if we look at some of the, some of the African cultures, it it's seen when women go through menopause, there's actually cultural, there's actually rituals that they actually have when women have gone through menopause.
Speaker 3:These women are now becoming what they call elders and they are senior members and they are influential and it's not actually seen as a negative light um so and and same with the caribbean cultures. They also do um, they don't talk about it as much, but it's not seen as uh, as a negative um. So but when you come to the Western culture, it's just seen as something that you have to prepare the worst for.
Speaker 3:It's something that we are led to feel that we're no longer useful, we could no longer produce children. Everything changes. Our hair changes, our skin changes, we just start to look old and frumpy and and we, you know, we get this into our head. That is such a bad, bad thing yeah, so can I?
Speaker 1:just interrupt you for one second, because what I'm thinking of is how you mentioned that in other cultures there are rituals around um, around women who are entering this phase, and here in the Western cultures we have rituals for people who are entering puberty. You know we have rituals, like you know, there's bar mitzvahs and bas mitzvahs, and different societies and different cultures and religions welcome people going from one stage life stage to another stage. It would be wonderful, I would say, if here we can adopt, you know, some such thing like okay, this is, you're entering into your age of wisdom you know, perhaps, you know associated with this change.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely yes Do you think that that has to do with I'm not a fan of the term like melting pot right. I like to think of us as a salad right, where we don't become this mush of each other but we're distinct within something that's yummy melting pot of America, unless they stay really rooted in communities of where they're from, whether that is a part of kind of what in a sense erases what they had in their original culture. I'm wondering if that's a part of the assimilation that happens is kind of letting go of some of these ideas, some of these more positive ideas about menopause, just wondering.
Speaker 3:I think it absolutely does, because I think, with American women here it was, you know, being a Black woman and having a rich, rich cultural history, a rich african cultural history, was literally beaten out of us. Um, so, and we had to, it was literally beaten out of us. And I think the difference in um caribbean women is because, you know, they, they always kept their identity and that's what they fought for. And then when they, when slavery was abolished and they started to run their own countries and see these people, black people, run their countries and then eventually they got rid of, you know, british rule and oversight, oversight, um, they start to really embrace their old cultures, but they never really lost it, or it's here, right? I think it was.
Speaker 3:It's literally beaten out of you um and then you had to adopt something else to just to survive it's really a survival right now um I, I'm, I'm hoping, and I think there is a more of awareness of um that this is not such a taboo thing anymore.
Speaker 3:And I think more and more of us are becoming more and more educated on the fact that this is something that can be viewed as a rite of passage. It's not so much in a negative light. It shouldn't be just a clinical thing. It's a natural process that we all have to go through. Um, in some southern, south american um countries, the mayan women the few that are, you know, still still around they actually look forward to menopause because it's a freedom, it's a status, it's a.
Speaker 3:it's a new, it's a new status and the way they look at it, and the same with Japanese women. The way they look at menopause is something that's not thinnable. They take it as a whole holistic view and they do things like diet and exercise, and we find that a lot of these women in other countries don't have as much of the effects that menopause can bring on, because they're embracing it that we are feeling so many, you know our symptoms are so much more intense because we're actually going into it with a fear.
Speaker 1:Right and we're adding anxiety to the whole picture and we're adding anxiety to it.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Sure or embarrassment.
Speaker 3:Right. So I, like you know, when I used to do a lot of deliveries, I would, you know, say to people they would come in with their birthing plans because if they researched it and could control it, then it would turn out better. I would always tell them please do not come to me with a birthing plan, tear it up. Tear up your birthing plan, understand what the process is. It's a natural process process.
Speaker 3:Your body is going to do what it needs to do to push this baby out and whatever you write down on a piece of paper, it's not going to happen, and it invariably didn't happen the way they wanted it to happen, because you cannot control something.
Speaker 2:That's a natural process the body I have to mention. A friend of ours had a whole birth. I mean she was. She was gonna play yanni, she was gonna have candles in the room. It it did not pan out. It never does birth it.
Speaker 3:Birth is a whole process that your body, your mind, everything is in tune with each other and nothing you think in your head about what can happen with a birth is going to happen Because your body is going to do what it needs to do to get that baby out, your body will do it. So I always used to. Just every time people would come with a birth implant I would just want to throw up. I would always say, just leave it alone.
Speaker 2:This is what doctors are.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, we go in the break room and it's like pssst those people, oh, my God. She has a birthing plan.
Speaker 3:It's a whole template.
Speaker 1:It's a whole yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:So I think that the more and more I look into menopause and what's going on, I think we are setting ourselves up for failure when it comes to trying to deal with this, because we are putting pressure on ourselves that we don't want what is naturally going to happen to happen, and it's inevitable.
Speaker 3:You can't fight it to happen to happen, and it's an it's inevitable. You can't fight it, so you need to try and do the best for you, what you can do to help yourself get through it, and that would mean exercising, that would mean eating right, that would mean making sure you take care of any other chronic illnesses that you have, um, so I think that's really, really, really important, really important.
Speaker 1:I have so many questions based on what you've just said, so what I almost think needs to happen is we need to tear down the buildings that are there around menopause and rebuild new ideas and paradigms around it.
Speaker 3:Right, it's not even building new ideas. It's looking outside of where we're at to see how they are doing it, because there are cultures that are doing it a lot better than us.
Speaker 1:We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 3:Women have been going through this for years and years you know, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 1:We don't need to reinvent the wheel. This has been. Women have been going through this for, yeah, years, and years, you know forever.
Speaker 3:So there's, there are people that are out there, or cultures that are out there that are doing it right or doing it with less um fear that we, that you know, that we have, um, you know there's some, some cultures, that believe menstrual blood is is the power to create life. You know giving birth and then when you lose, when you stop bleeding, they see it as retaining wise blood.
Speaker 3:You're crushing the threshold into wise women and you keep that blood within you and now you're healers of the community. So if you're looking forward, to this oh. I love that. That's great. I know I'm kidding. That's a beautiful way to think of it, right? If you're looking forward to this stage in your life, then you're going to embrace it and you're going to go into it with a different mindset.
Speaker 3:Now I am retaining an element that is increasing right absolutely yeah, yeah, so I think we have to really change how we see it, um, and we have to change also how we talk about it I was just gonna say yes there's cultural differences in how we talk about it.
Speaker 3:um, you know some women, you know those ones that embrace it. They talk about it more and I think this society, we keep it very hush hush, but I'm glad to see that in the past few years it's now been talked about more. We're researching it more.
Speaker 3:Women are demanding that they get help or they get a better understanding of what's going on, and even coming down to being treated for some of the symptoms I think we need. You know, doctors perceive different women differently, whether it be racial or cultural. They perceive us differently. I mean, they perceive us differently on all kinds of level. So why would menopause be any different?
Speaker 3:So that has to change also and we have to get across this, you know break down the barrier of actually trying to educate people on what it is to go through menopause. So, yeah, there's a lot to do, there's a lot to talk about. I think it's just the talking uh needs to really step up, Um, and I think we will eventually get to a point where it won't be such a taboo anymore, it won't be such a fearful thing that that we're going through, and it's something we should, we should embrace.
Speaker 2:I have a couple of questions, if I may, um what is discussed in your medical training. Um, I know les you do anesthesia, um, but um, what is what is taught in your medical training about menopause? And I'm thinking because there are OB-GYNs who are not women and I'd love to kind of understand what is the perception they come in with around how to treat women who are going through um menopause. What, yeah, what is the training like?
Speaker 3:well, when I was going through, there was barely any training and it was really more um, in the context of the biology of it, the science of it, what's happening to your body, um. But they're not talking about too much. You know other things that go on with it, how to treat it.
Speaker 3:It was really more about the science of it, um okay and you know, the only times I would really get or really have teaching on it was when I was in the clinics. It wasn't like we had classes on how to teach or how to treat. It was more when we were in the clinic. So now all we're just getting is well, this woman has this and this one.
Speaker 3:We didn't have like a whole holistic approach to it. And you know, in this society you know it's not so much now but um, it was really, you know, a lot of men were doing this and didn't really, you know, affect them, so they weren't really interested in teaching too much of it, they weren't really interested in treating it. Um, they would just kind of like blow a lot of women off. So it was difficult and I didn't know, you know, back then I didn't know that I needed to know about this stuff I really, really needed to know, so it's you know there's a.
Speaker 3:You know, as women also coming out of training, we didn't do ourselves any favors either by just ignoring this. But again, it's a patriarchal society. They're the ones that are controlling it. But more and more these days, women in medical school are catching up. I think it's almost like 50-50 now. And maybe just a little bit over 50%, so hopefully with that this subject will also.
Speaker 1:The approach to this subject will also change, I know I can speak about my training just through my OB rotation in medical school. Just through my OB rotation in medical school, you know we concentrated more obviously on the mechanical components of the birthing process per se. You know that was a medical student's role, let's say, to understand what epidurals are and to understand the physical part of the birthing process or women, gynecological issues, peripherally Obviously. I was just a student at the time. But as you said, dr Tony, we absolutely did not talk about the entire, what they call the psycho, biopsychosocial component, the totality of the woman through every stage of her lifespan and what happens after Mency stops. So I too, you know, didn't understand really about this part. That's when my non-physician part comes in and out. I just have to be just like any person in society. What?
Speaker 1:have you heard from your mother? What have you heard from your friends? And again, we don't talk that much. The things that we do hear are the whispers about it and the hot flashes and the sweating right, and there's a whole other constellation of things that have just been left out, and the problem is we've accepted it right, right and because when you don't know what to ask, you don't know, you don't know yeah, I, I hear you, I hear you and I you know.
Speaker 3:I think that um know there's a lot of barriers to you know overcome, even within the healthcare field, in terms of you know the language, that you, how you speak to people and what kind of language you use and how much are they educated and socioeconomic status Can they even come to?
Speaker 3:just you know, some people are just trying to barely survive day to day and this is the last thing on their mind, when really this should really be one of the first things on their mind, because going through menopause leads to a whole constellation of issues if it's not taken care of and treated right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's a lot approach people where they are and in the language that they understand, Right. And that speaks to different educational levels. That speaks to different cultural beliefs. That also speaks to different religious beliefs. So the more that we are aware of the differences among different populations of people going through these processes, the better we are able to help people through it without that anxiety and fear that you're talking about, right Well, I think it's awareness, but it's also respect, because sometimes people are aware of differences but it's like ah yeah, especially that's all wives, whatever that's.
Speaker 2:BS or you know, it's kind of a really judgy. It's not ignorance, it's judgment, right, and so I think that's the part of it too, that we're not kind of the center of the universe and everything that we do in Western society is the way that it ought to be done and everything else is looked at with suspicion and, um, you know, in a kind of uncivilized, um bent you know, I mean um, I want to give a shout out to, um, uh, omishade, bernie scott.
Speaker 2:She has started this program. I mean, it's been many years now that she's been her multi-generational it's such a mix of. She has a podcast. She has zines that she creates.
Speaker 2:She's been working across the board, but her organization is called Black Women's Guide to Surviving Menopause and they do a lot of work to break down some of what we're talking about here the stigmas around menopause, seeing it in a very positive way, seeing it, as you know, a movement through life, bringing younger people into the conversation around menopause, so it doesn't't become this or continue to be this silence and maybe even ridicule sometimes around women who are experiencing or are post-menopausal.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, she's got a really amazing organization. We'll definitely put links to it here, along with the work that the two organizations that Leslie mentioned are a part of it. You know, I can just imagine that some of you listening, as Leslie said, are being informed. But to really think deeply about how you have been, deeply about how you have been, perhaps, if I might say, brainwashed about menopause, right, and even if you come from a culture that sees menopause more positively positively, what Tony is talking about here is that there's so many different cultural lenses around menopause, right, and so you might be interested in how other people look at it right, and there are other ways to kind of go through the experience.
Speaker 2:There may be other treatments and I don't know if it's, do we call it treatment? Since it's a very natural, I guess it's still called a treatment.
Speaker 1:Or therapies, or therapies. Yes, Therapies okay.
Speaker 2:Things like that Right to explore different types of therapies Because, as we've said over and over again, I know that people experience menopause in very different ways, like I. Mine was that that people experience menopause in very different ways, like I mine was very very mild. I don't recall anything more than some, you know, restless nights not being able to sleep because of the heat. I don't remember much more than that. Neither did my mom, but you know we all have very different experiences I thought leslie would never.
Speaker 1:It's like really what you again looking around. Why is that in your?
Speaker 2:bathroom already. Yes, so it's very, it's very different and, if you know, if you're not kind of feeling like what you're doing is helping see what other cultures are doing and that may be helpful also, right definitely definitely this is this is good you thought the engineer wouldn't.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just thinking about our whole talk and I'm actually anticipating, you know, the things that are coming up more, and we're going to get more into the conversations that you talked about in terms of therapeutics later on and we'll talk about oh my gosh, this is exciting.
Speaker 2:Right, we've got 2025 to do it.
Speaker 1:So, dr Tony, what is coming up in the next installment of the year of menopause? With black boomer besties from Brooklyn, what might you be bringing us?
Speaker 3:I love your name. I think coming up is what people really, really want to know. You know, what do I need to do to treat my symptoms or help my symptoms or help me go through this. So we're going to break it down into the different areas of the body. I think I mentioned last time that estrogen receptors is over 400 within the body from the top of your head to the hair on your head, all the way down to your tippy toes.
Speaker 1:Wow. Estrogen affects it all down to your tippy toes.
Speaker 3:Estrogen affects it all. So we're going to start breaking the body down and talking about the different areas, whether it's the cardiac, the bones, the brain that thing that they say brain fog is real, it's a real thing and we're going to go deeper into those things and and try and explain, uh, what it is the, the, the, the loss, or I shouldn't say the loss, because the japanese actually do not think it as a loss of estrogen. They think of it as a change in the balance of their hormones. I read that today and I was like, oh that's interesting they don't think it as a loss.
Speaker 3:It's a change it's so we're going to talk about how the changes of the hormones affect the different areas of the body and what we can do to treat them while you're going through the changes and prior to, because I think I mentioned the last time that a lot of this stuff, we need to be working on this stuff before we actually reach this listen.
Speaker 2:As soon as that call finished, as soon as you, we hung up, I went and got the central I've been taking it every day. I'm like jody was like y'all better get on you, get'all better get your Centrum 50s.
Speaker 3:Yes, your women's Centrum 50. It's been known to help with the brain and you know I can't take the tablets. Those tablets are huge.
Speaker 2:They are huge.
Speaker 3:So I have to get the gummies, but I have to buy them in bulk because they go so fast.
Speaker 1:Those gummies go really fast.
Speaker 3:I see, I see, but I can't take the pills. They're huge, they're humongous, they are. But yeah, so we're going to do a deep dive.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is going to be. I'm looking forward to this. So here's another thing that I'm going to take away from this. I'm not going to say that I'm losing my memory.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say that my memory is shifting to more important parts of my body.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, yeah, let's see how that works.
Speaker 2:We're not no, but the idea of rebalancing is really beautiful. Right, it is, it's, it's a continuum and it's yeah yeah right oh, I look forward to it.
Speaker 3:well, it, it's not a lot, I think this has been great, Right?
Speaker 1:Oh well, well, Chef Kiss, Dr Toni Otway, Thank you. I look forward to our next segment next month or in a number of weeks, but keep the comments coming everyone and we really got good feedback and people very interested in this project and I really think it's going to be helpful. So at that I'll say this has been another episode of Black Boomer Besties from Brooklyn.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
