Dirt Nap City

Who Was Andy Kaufman? (Featuring Jarret Berenstein)

• Dirt Nap City • Season 3 • Episode 62

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In this episode of Dirt Nap City, we dive into the enigma that is Andy Kaufman. This episode unravels the life and career of the comedic genius who blurred the lines between performance and reality. From his outrageous characters like Latka Gravas to his legendary wrestling battles with Jerry Lawler, we explore the tactics that made him a legend...and sometimes, a villain. Was he a brilliant provocateur or a hilarious troll? We separate fact from fiction, with a special guest, Jarret Berenstein, a writer, comedian, and producer was a featured performer on Fox television's standup show Laughs. Jarret hosted the radio show Famous Dead People on Radio Free Brooklyn.
He performed improv with the legendary Magnet Theater house team Junior Varsity for twelve years.

Find out what a real comedian thinks about the ground breaking Andy Kaufman!

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Alex:

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of about interesting dead people. I'm here with my buddy Kelly

Kelly:

Man, it got hot. I'm so bummed if you live in

Alex:

Texas. It's miserable this time of year, but who listening to this? I mean, this could be a fall episode. one still hot probably in Texas. Hey, Kelly, I want to

Kelly:

Oh, yes, pink flocks, our new Patreon supporter.

Alex:

think is a flower. Did you know that?

Kelly:

I did not know that did not know that kind

Alex:

of flower or something. Okay, Pink

Kelly:

Pink is our newest Patreon supporter. And if you or another thing you can do now is in the description you can click to send us a message immediately from your anybody do that, because we just activated this feature on works, you could be the first one if you send us a message we will send you something in the mail.

Alex:

But keep in mind the show still isn't live. So if we're saying we're not going to, in real time respond to still

Kelly:

this This isn't like a podcast booty call? No, no. podcast. So wouldn't it podcast booty call guarantee

Alex:

that's already a podcast? Hey, I want to

Kelly:

Okay, who's that? Oh, wait, there's a guy here.

Alex:

As you know, we have this podcast is about it's not the first and probably not the last podcast And it strikes me that there might be a lot of people who maybe this is their second favorite podcast about have here, the host of the podcast, famous dead people, Jarrett Berenstein Hello,

Unknown:

how's it going, guys?

Alex:

So you had a podcast from 2017 to 2020? About

Unknown:

That is correct. That is correct. So the premise of invite comedians on to pretend to be deceased people from questions, they would have to improvise funny answers to the famous people about their lives.

Alex:

And your last podcast was like a week before COVID It was

Jarret:

not. It was not a coincidence. I had nothing to was fortuitous. It was fortuitous. For months, I was needing to cut down on some projects that I was doing. And all the math of how much time and energy I was putting into lot of work for for the kind of show that it was. And we thing that's gotta go, you know. And not only was it a freed up a lot of my time. And I was able to do other consuming. But then also COVID happened. And I was like, Oh, I have to worry about that.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah. And then you've had a couple of other right after that you got on one with a couple of your anything that

Unknown:

is right Is this anything was a show where it pandemic where we a couple of comedians that I knew we together, when while we couldn't be performing live. fun doing it that we were like, we think this might be a putting out episodes, and the episodes got a little bit show was plagued by by internal disputes between the there was a whole behind the scenes drama going on where about X, Y or Z we we kicked off one of the members about about around episode I think like, whatever the last two guys on the podcast got into a fight together. And well, I guess we're done.

Alex:

It's like being in a band.

Kelly:

We the last man standing.

Unknown:

Yeah, I could be the only one doing the show then

Alex:

So now you do have a show by yourself. Right?

Unknown:

I do. I started around during the pandemic I of internal monologues where I would like see something on of like, imagine I was being interviewed about that topic about it. And so I started another podcast called schedule whatsoever. I just put it in episodes whenever it an experiment in if I don't promote something, will people don't ever advertise like, Hey, new episode drops or bring it up as if people asked me about it, and then I go, my website. If people are poking around on my website,

Alex:

Okay, well, great. So you're an experienced Thank you so much for being with us. We're breaking our done it a few times. Kelly, where we've both known. We're think mostly the saints.

Kelly:

Yeah, we've done the st. St. Valentine. St. St. episodes, a

Alex:

couple of others, saints mostly. And then there was one the same person out of all dead people, we actually the same week. It was a Christmas episode where we

Jarret:

Wow. Yeah. That's how you can tell you if you're know, you guys were just on the same wavelength.

Alex:

We're like born in 19, whatever. Oh, six in Illinois. the same one? So we? We did.

Kelly:

And it was our most popular episode for a while. it.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah. But today, we brought Jared on. Jared, in And writer is also a touring comedian. He's a comedian or

Unknown:

I actually just got into a conversation about this the two and who's allowed to call themselves a comedian and themselves a comic. I don't really parse out the semantics

Kelly:

better than the other, I don't know, higher rank.

Unknown:

I don't even remember what position the person I was saying that you can be a comic without a comedian or vice political. Like I know a lot about politics very passionate jive well with that stuff, either. You know, like what's progressive or liberal or leftist or a Democrat? I'm whatever Call me whatever you want. You know, I don't care.

Alex:

I feel like comic was big for a while. Like you were And then Jerry Seinfeld came out with the movie comedian, back to comedian documentary

Kelly:

and later he came out with the B movie and they thank you for the courtesy laughter it

Unknown:

Oh, the lobby coming all day guys. I gotta reserves

Kelly:

me a dirty look when I say something like that.

Alex:

Well, I know that that's that's the cue that crickets Sometimes I

Unknown:

woke up I was doing a show in a club that had an thought somebody was like heckling me. They hear this somebody's phone. Like what am I? We fucking was? Wait,

Alex:

Yeah, it's like, it's like the the microphone that there's nobody else. Right? And that always happens like microphone squeals Yep. Well, I want to talk to Jarrett our subject today is Andy Kaufman. And I want to get at first, but then I really want to get the opinions of a somebody also who's a little bit younger than us who aware of, of Andy Kaufman in the in the original, like, happening and see. See how. See how that all went? I'm

Unknown:

interested in hearing everything you guys Abraham Lincoln. Yeah. The dinosaurs, whatever. Yeah. I generations.

Alex:

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. We'll teach you everything favorite century, as we've learned going on here is the good run the 20th century outside of the couple of world out the world wars, it was a hell of a century. I

Unknown:

mean, a lot of interesting stuff happened,

Alex:

if you add in the World War is not so great.

Kelly:

We have we have a lot of great movies because of the have today. It's true. Yeah. That's true. I mean, what World War Two, yeah,

Alex:

yeah, it's like half of a giant

Unknown:

Mr. Via giant space in his resume. And every time that, they would go what happened here? It's like, Saving Private Ryan there, but that word doesn't exist. So

Kelly:

Right, right.

Alex:

So Andy Kaufman was kind of a product of the 20th square in the middle in 1949. unfortunately died in 1984. So burns super bright, but not very long. But totally 60s. As you can imagine, a kid born in 1949 grew up watching interviews, he's talked about how he just wanted to climb world. He grew up in Long Island. And just in front of Wikipedia, we don't get too much of our information from off off chance that we do. Wikipedia said that he was he was an entertainer at children's birthday party Which is a little unsettling in itself to have a nine year birthday party and be like the the entertainment.

Kelly:

He also supposedly spent a lot of time in his like just pretending like he was live on a television show.

Unknown:

I mean, that's, you

Alex:

know, really resonated that really resonate

Unknown:

with 100% Exact without question, there is a like, into a recorder. Yeah, but I gotta say, like a yeah, a nine year old entertainer at a children's ideal, because that is like the eighth. Like, if you could be the entertainer, there's a thing that happens in kids is an adult, it's a different person. But if it's just a kid is cool. He still speaks the language. He knows we want fart noises and you know what silly faces and stuff like he probably crushed those kids birthday parties.

Alex:

Unless it was a 14 year olds birthday party and then just be

Kelly:

Yeah, that's lame. Yeah. 100% I would get beat up Monday. Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah.

Alex:

But he used to do he used to do all kinds of like himself as an as an entertainer. He saw himself as just wanted to be like in the TV didn't really concern or even really being funny. He just wanted to entertain he went to community college for a couple years and then coffeehouse circuit. And he had this one bit that he that bit that he called foreign men. Where he played like country that he that he came from sounded like maybe kind country where he would.

Kelly:

He said it was the island in the middle of the Novia or Casper, Casper, AVI or something, and it was the middle of the Caspian Sea or something like that. Yeah.

Alex:

And the point of this character was not to make fun was more of to project innocence, right that to like, and, and kind of kind of be this innocent person. And he But he would do him in his in his foreign accents, accent thinking that that was really him. He morphed that into this this Elvis impression. And where it was a really good full with the full costume and everything. And then people that they like, is this guy for real? And so was he What audience on? Its on its heels a little bit, keep them going to do next. I'm not sure the bid was funny. I mean, it than the one joke, right? Yeah. Like it was a probably a was that oh, I'm not really this boring.

Kelly:

And I'm not really that funny.

Unknown:

Yeah. So if you're talking about like an open like a comedy showcase show, usually the comics are getting each. If it's professional show, usually it's closer to smaller show, usually, like 10 minutes. I mean, if you're on sign up like really that person doing more than eight potentially a disaster. You know, there are open mics that where everybody got two and a half minutes, you know, just precariousness of it. And I don't know if we're jumping think like this is the nugget like this is the thing that was, was playing with the agreement that the performer I'm doing a thing right now, versus this is me right now, lying about? What is the honest part of this? And entertainer that has to struggle with that, where we read, you know, like, does an audience understand what I'm you would say, like, am I showing my cards too early? Am the thing that Andy Kaufman pioneered was, I'm not going just going to do the thing. And every and people can guess want whether or not this is real or not. And that was so alienated a lot of people. And that's sort of like the, the entertainers is like, you know, the payoff can be huge. alienating your audience for a long time, but it's painful to long time to know that guys, there's, there's gonna be we're not there yet. And

Kelly:

you just pull. They're so uncomfortable. Yeah, hurts.

Unknown:

It really gets there when there's like, no laughs performer, I can't stand too much of that, you know, like, go on a little bit too long in the setup. There's always a like, there's a joke. Come on, guys. I swear, I swear. But he of performers who do like that tension. And, and yeah, the that he was performing, so willing to sit in that was, it was so different, and, and really revolutionary.

Alex:

That's the thing is that I love that word tension, too. so you said 10, to 20, but like he was on Johnny Carson,

Unknown:

those are like five, late nights. That's right,

Alex:

minutes, if you don't have and so a lot of comedians there, their best jokes, right? A lot of them don't other. But you have to get those kind of a greatest hits But if all you're doing is what he was doing that six lot of time. And for those audiences that were used to of the more standard, conventional comedians at the audiences were not trained, like today's audiences are to minutes, where he did a good minute and a half with his where he's putting on his Elvis costume. And then like finally using the Elvis voice, but there might have been, in that hole. And the jokes weren't even like a Yeah. It was interesting. But their jokes they were just not who he says yes, the

Unknown:

thing is, like, there's such a payoff, if you you can keep people invested if you can keep people on a real gamble of just is this person bad? Or is this on

Kelly:

you'll have podcasters talking about you for four that's, that's, that's a sign that he's succeeded is that right? This

Unknown:

is the payoff. This is what he wanted was this.

Alex:

is the payoff. Well, he, one of his other famous bets guys familiar with this Mighty Mouse been used to do where he put on a record of the Mighty Mouse song and he would just comes on. When he says here, I come to save the day, and he motion, and then he would go back into

Kelly:

awkwardness standing like like very awkwardly, and

Alex:

a three minute bit with basically that one joke. He very first episode of Saturday Night Live in 1975. That's that uncomfortableness. And some people at the time some people said this was a waste of everybody's time and

Unknown:

that's what's so cool about it is that the things some things that at Kauffman did where I was like, okay, you're pushing it too far. Man. You have to have a little I don't know man, I actually saw a really good time. Zega

Alex:

length of time where he all he did was read The Great

Unknown:

in life. In my opinion, you know, I actually subtle call back to the Mighty Mouse. But I was at I was at a a woman came out and she was dressed kind of kind of like a little bit hunched back, you know, just kind of and then all of a sudden a karaoke version of what sounds playing and she's not doing anything, she's just kind of her thing, you know? And then you start to realize that this the movie, Aladdin, where Aladdin is explaining, you and you know, one step ahead of the WEPA you know, and so this girl like bopper log to the song, you know, until she think he's rather tasty, which in the movie was said by like rags and everything like this. She milked it so hard. That did, like there was in the Mighty Mouse, but he comes the entire thing listening to the whole song. No words, not this soundtrack. There's no words. And then just still, I de lightful. Did the crowd like, oh, we loved it. We And there's something also about those bits that's work every time. And so when it works here with us, that's

Kelly:

together like you're part of something special. stars aligned.

Unknown:

You can see that same bid at a different show and so lucky that you got to be a part of the crowd that got it.

Alex:

you earn goodwill with the audience, they know who But the very first time when you're an unknown, I mean, you example, will have some crazy sketches on when he was on that just bombed. But he's committed to those sketches so up thinking, well, am I missing something and these a good time making this. And then the next time you kind of kind of get where he's coming from. But the very first time riotous laughter,

Unknown:

there's a real danger that if you don't perform audience, you might not play that club again. You might not opportunity to impress somebody who had an there is there is a real risk to being that kind of comedian and isn't concerned about being a, you know, rapid fire doesn't hit, you might have just fucked yourself for

Kelly:

Well, let's on that, on that point. Tony Clifton, funny or tell traditional jokes. I mean, he just insulted, insulted. So explain clearly explain who Tony alter ego, I believe, of Andy Kaufman and one of his them came up with it originally. And somebody would would do this. And then they would both be that character

Unknown:

that I was I believe so. I believe so I believe

Alex:

Yeah, in fact, people thought they were booking Andy this lounge singer, so he would play like a week at a we're getting Andy Kaufman so we can get people in the door. on vacation, Bob's muda would just do it. And, and they money Andy Kaufman was making and they'd split it and it way to the bank on that.

Unknown:

Well, I think there was a little smoke and mirrors came out singer that, that Andy Kaufman is this person It's not there, you know, I'm just not right

Kelly:

because he one time I he showed up at a show where all of a sudden Andy's there so it can't be Andy. But another there's another person involved that's doing this. I mirrors. Yeah. And

Alex:

the the Tony Clifton character was a boorish, lounge singer, like a caricature of a terrible racist, sexist jokes, and got completely on the bad side of they always thought that okay, there's the sweet guy under bad. Have you guys seen the movie? Jim and Andy?

Unknown:

Yes, the documentary

Alex:

on? Yeah, it's the documentary about the making seen it? Yes, I

Kelly:

have. I have not seen it. So there's a scene

Alex:

in that movie and they had they have all these behind in 2017. But it was about the making of man on the moon, So there's the scene where Jim Carrey gets invited to the Well, I can't make it but can Tony Clifton calm instead? So wink. So Bob's a mood Akos as Tony Clifton gets everybody That's Jim Carrey. Don't you know, don't give him a hard cool. And at the end of the party, Jim Carrey shows up and they call the cops and they're like, You got to get out of got in here and they totally turned on him. Yeah,

Unknown:

I mean, it's kind of you know, the bit I think the documentary is that basically, Jim Carrey was in character was Jim Carrey he was Andy Kaufman on on stage off stage personally as a as somebody working in entertainment completely intolerable. It's like everybody's working their the lighting people, the assistant add the costume these people's lives harder by involving them in your you journey, you know, but I will say this, like he got it like Kaufman like the kind of entertainment that he was, and think you can really see a love that Jim Carrey has not performer, but for the type of comedy that he pioneered.

Alex:

Yeah, I think you're right. He did drive everybody.

Unknown:

Yeah, I would have hated that.

Kelly:

Yeah, well, before we go, before we go further with will, I do want to ask a question, because this is one think about, I'm, I've grown up, you know, musically, I out there. Like, you know, I don't mind stuff that's really whatever. I'm good with art films, generally, you know, considered myself fairly well cultured when it comes to film like that. But then there's a point at which it's just not at which it's just not funny. And it says sort of emperor You know, the kids, the only one that will point out that because he thinks he's wearing this great thing. I, I gotta saw Andy Kaufman live. But watching from watching on Moon, you know, just watching all these clips from either think I would have been mad in some of those situations, you up at a show and have Tony Clifton show up and just be that was cute for a minute, but it's really not that of my wife or my mom, or whoever's, you know, and it's to the show, and it's, you made it route, you ruined it that's, that's a weird trap I feel like we fall into is that you don't like something? Because then you're considered know, not like sophisticated enough to understand it. Oh, unsophisticated. That's why he doesn't get this joke. You

Unknown:

100%. You know, that's the that's the journey who your whole shtick is alienating the audience. And I This sort of like spectrum of alienating your audience for a there's, there's art that spoon feeds you the art, that spoon feeds it to you so hard that it makes your This sucks. And it's not even entertaining anymore. You're And then there's stuff that alienates your audience so get through it. I think about books like Ulysses, like who like, how active is your brain have to be and so I think that entertainment is the thing that challenges you a little entertaining. And there's so much great art like that. But like, I want to be ultra, you know, intellectual or I really and this you know, this is where we get the musical form you also have things that are like we just need to be so enjoy this. Anybody could watch this, you know, the Furious, you know, stuff like that. There's an audience for all that stuff, it this only exists on a spectrum. But Andy space man who's like, I want to see how far I can go in

Kelly:

that out, right? Maybe the purpose of that is to saccharin, you know, like spoon fed kind of stuff, maybe

Jarret:

you can do too much of that

Kelly:

we need a little, even if, even if you don't, I mean, into politics now. But but kind of like politics is, you people over here and people over here. And and most people most people like to be in the middle and like to be closer you know, as long as you have someone over here, you've got else, the whole thing tips, right? Yeah, I don't know. I

Unknown:

mean, there's also an argument to be made that the his commentary on the type of comedian who he would see at venues, you know, it's like, they're, I mean, we're still there are comics who complain about canceled culture like And then there are other comics who are like, well, the racist or homophobic or whatever, you know. So now, character, that is a critique of, that's not a joke. You're not a joke. You're just being an asshole to that person in

Alex:

I think it's hard to look at this stuff. watch YouTube videos. But what we don't realize is what it yeah, he was breaking stuff at the time, and he was breaking at the time. And I remember. So, you know, I was like, when when I was a kid, I was like, 989 10 years old. And I heard he was going to be on something. And he played all he was on The Dinah Shore show and Dick Van Dyke Show wasn't rock comic where you had to go and like, Look hard for his mainstream stuff. But he would do is weird stuff. And I used kid who just consumed that stuff. That he I didn't know knew it was cool. And it was different. And that kind of Letterman, later on that would do that kind of you were later on, where it's like, you didn't know where this stuff that kind of comedy a lot. A lot more than like the Bob liners. I thought it was cool at the time. Yeah, Nick,

Kelly:

my wife, please.

Unknown:

I think that there's a I think there's a direct between Andy Kaufman's pushing the boundaries and the It's almost like David Letterman is sort of in material or smile and winking is is sort of making what Andy more digestible, just like that much more, so that we

Alex:

Well, in the fact that he had Andy Kaufman on was goodwill with Letterman, like if he endorsed it, this guy see it, give it time, because there must be something cool has a mind. That endorsement was really important to me as Letterman. And you know, even the David Letterman like have. Andy Kaufman would would would come on there from time

Unknown:

I didn't realize any compliment was on David wonder it did not. It was not the audience that is not the

Alex:

So weird part is he took this foreign guy character and taxi. The sitcom taxi. Jerry, are you familiar with that

Unknown:

with taxi? Yeah.

Alex:

Yeah, it was a good show. Funny show. He had it in only appear and half of the shows Andy Andy Kaufman, about like 28 episodes a year. He would appear in about 14 of he was no like he was the most popular one on that show and which is the opposite of the way that Andy Kaufman wanted they promised him a special that he would get this special Andy's funhouse or something like that, where he would get that's the reason they did it. But I think he was the highest even though he was an only half the episodes. Yeah, I famously had a deal in his contract that said that Tony the shows that didn't work out so well and famously kind of he was on taxi was a mainstream as mainstream as it a really big star through taxi. Yeah,

Unknown:

I mean, yeah, his stuff was funny. It was even little bit more digestible was still good, you know?

Alex:

Yeah. And, and this was around the same time that becoming popular. So there's another one who was kind of mainstream sitcom world. So it's like I said, it's not these weird people that were right on your TV every week. outside of those shows that were really Yeah,

Unknown:

I think Robin Williams is almost the like the thing that was so weird about him was that he so badly, you know, he was going 1000 miles an hour, different bits, this thing led off of that thing, that thing physical. So out there that any coffin was a little bit I promise there'll be a payoff where as Rob leaves thing was Here's this, you don't like this? Here's that you don't and keeping up with it was part of the joke with Robin

Alex:

You know, they were friends.

Unknown:

I that didn't surprise me at all. Yeah,

Alex:

I mean, they were both kind of in that in that sitcom a one performance where Andy Wood said that he had his he had this old woman and he put her on up on the stage. the lady ripped off her wig. And it was Robin Williams,

Kelly:

Mrs. Doubtfire.

Unknown:

That's where we got the idea. For that's true,

Kelly:

yeah, well, so in terms of in terms of what you, you ago that you don't find yourself 100% comfortable that build up? Sometimes. And I'm the same way i i Really, uncomfortable. And I think it's a personality thing. It's Some people can't. How do you? How do you do that? As a you push yourself? Do you feel like sometimes you do have to just let the silence fall over you? Or get booed? Or what in those situations where, you know, it's gonna be funny, if don't think you know, it's gonna be funny you think might works. And sometimes it doesn't. Like how do you person who doesn't like to mess up somebody's first date

Unknown:

It's difficult. You know, every comedian kind of discovering what it is that they do that works the first specific comics that you respect a lot, but maybe it Exactly. So you change it up. When I first started doing an Eddie Izzard thing. That didn't work. Then I tried to thing that kind of didn't work a little bit, I was able to my voice, you know. And part of that is you you take from been developed by all the great comedians that you have tension of is there a joke coming? Is this a bit is comedians do. But maybe we only do it like salt and season, you know, a part of your dinner, whereas that was And that was so interesting at the time. But good analogy. way of like, there are comedians that I came up with that 60% of their set was the sort of Andy Kaufman alienated were some comedians who were like, completely the opposite concerned about getting their laughs and being as mainstream they only did 1% of the Andy Kaufman thing. But yeah, the standup is not just in, in finding your voice but unable handle bombing, because that is the process of writing new great already. Even when you're established. You still once in a while. And those jokes do not have 100% success are. What I've noticed is that a really good season comedian he gets that tension, he slows down. I shouldn't say he I know, say, uh, you know, gender norms that we're trying But the comedian then will slow down whereas you'll see a silence, get that tension and then start to speed up because up the pace. I just started I just lost the momentum here.

Kelly:

Okay, good to know, good to know,

Alex:

what is uncomfortable these days? Is it politics? Or person to know, what makes audiences uncomfortable.

Unknown:

It's interesting because it really depends on you do. As a comedian, I heard this great analogy from Pete audience is your instrument, but it's a different imagine you're and you're a musician, and you show up to But the next day, it's a cello. And then the next day, day, it's a harp, you know, part of your job as a comedian audience you have. When I go on the road I'm generally that have similar politics to me, so I can go hard on what I even if they're not with me, 100% they're on board for me I just do that at any show, without any warm up foreplay with the audience, it's a little bit more of a of what you do is figure out what is this audience going to comedians who are like, I'm only looking for that I'm only trying to get that. But yeah, it is. It's a discovery like I can't hear any more shit about Trump, or sometimes more shit about COVID. Or I can't hear any of this about their bodily fluids or whatever. It really depends,

Kelly:

Yeah, I guess a lot of it is where where you are you're in? And then like you said, it's it's do the people you're all about? Or, you know, is it just they came no, it's not not what I was thinking it would be? Yeah,

Jarret:

an audience's expectations is part of the you have nothing, which makes it an uphill battle. But once you're good. Versus if you are super famous, well Chris Rock, the thing you're fighting against is what can I these people already love me? Because otherwise, comedians they're like, they don't push their own boundaries. They material anymore, because they can get away with doing the audience is already love them.

Kelly:

Do you? Do you know who Dave bird is?

Jarret:

Oh, my God, that name sounds so familiar.

Kelly:

Let me

Unknown:

Oh, of course, Little Dickie. Yeah. Dave Burt, of

Kelly:

Have you ever watched his show called Dave? Yeah,

Jarret:

I love the show. Yeah,

Kelly:

that was one of the best shows. I mean, just so I cared about every one of those characters. But yeah, I Because because I'm a fan of his music. Generally, I think little raunchy, just for the sake of being raunchy know, that's part of the rap game, as he might say. But I definitely would do things to try things. And, and fail at and, and it is music. The guy's pretty, pretty genius comedy. And then also, the show is just very well Dave audience, go check it out. I think it's on effect,

Unknown:

recommend, highly recommend Dave. And I mean, I more specifically, comedy, but I think all of entertainment you fail a lot until you find the thing that works, one of work with regularly, very entrepreneurial spirit. And so attitude towards this material, try this does it that with, you know, alright, well, I'm going to try doing, going to try, you know, doing a show in this kind of it's different. It's interesting. Yeah.

Alex:

Well, we've got the wrestling stuff that in his of want to talk a little bit about legacy. And some of the alluded to some, but some people out there, they're came to wrestling, that was where he kind of lost me, I And the way he did it, too, with the way he would only to these places, and he would proclaim himself the of the world, and he made himself this belt, and he only before he I mean, only after he would berate the chauvinistic, sexist stuff, and rile the crowd up, and then he he, of course, beat all these women and then he'd he'd really done something until he met his match with wrestler who kicked his ass a number of different times, those guys were friends. In real life, but what did you part, which was a huge part of his life?

Unknown:

Okay, so I came up with this from very a friend growing up, we were all coming in her to be my was the guy who loved any conference. So he was like, Now, the revelation that Jerry Lawler was in on this was a the fact that he was in the movie man on the moon, entire thing was stage was relatively new. And so when I about Andy Kaufman with my friend, the wrestling stuff downward spiral was, this is where he lost everybody, with wrestling for some reason. And he was being such remember as a young person who loved comedy, and who was this and being like, are we sure this wasn't a bit? This is his whole thing. He does bits it doesn't tell

Alex:

you in wrestling is a bit. Yeah, exactly. Wrestling right? Well,

Kelly:

you know, our very first, our very first episode the Giant. And and we started, we started with Andre the and we would watch Mid South Wrestling. And my sister and know, I'm using air quotes fake because, I mean, those themselves. And they really did, you know, do some pretty it was all staged and things would be planned out what he was doing in that phase, he wanted to be the bad guy of one that everybody booed and the everyone hated. And there classic classic, most of them most of the time, they were or, or Asian kid, they were non white guys, sometimes they would they would make these people out to be these think that's what he wanted to do. He created his own everybody hated. And he just glommed onto it. And I think or dopamine hit from people booing him, you know, and angry at him. And he The bid was

Unknown:

working, you know, like, the fact is, the only this bit, was letting people know that it was a bit because problem is that what when do you release the tension and in on this? And he never did never did after?

Kelly:

You're dead? Yeah.

Alex:

And that brings us to why when he finally when he him. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody believed he was dead. Yeah, looking at YouTube clips. The other day, there was a clip somebody had seen him in New Mexico, somebody like there says, Oh, this could be him. And he's probably living one like Elvis was one of these deals where nobody would think that he would have let us in on this by now, but than or greater than 0%

Kelly:

You know what's gonna happen one day we're gonna the news. And, and Donald Trump's gonna just take his Andy Kaufman.

Unknown:

I'm sorry, Andy, but you've gone too far. Sorry, you shouldn't have left the Paris Climate Accord. Andy.

Kelly:

would have gotten away with it, too. If it weren't

Alex:

Just the idea that he died of lung cancer, and he like, the whole thing seemed like a hoax. Not if not by him thing was just really bizarre. Is

Kelly:

that just sweet irony? You know? Is that just the way

Alex:

suppose. Yeah, I

Unknown:

think I think the key to Andy Kaufman is you assume to be fine. If it's not a bit with everything that he's over all of his material, his entire oeuvre. Most of that is to be bits. There's the famous skit on not Saturday Night sound I live with Michael Richards in it where he Fridays. Yeah, yeah. pretended to give up on a skit halfway that Jim Carrey made, that bit is revealed to the audience that was a that was a controversy for I don't know, who now say they were in on it, you know, kind of acted back then. So like, you know, there's some controversy to be like, it might have all been a bit it might not have

Alex:

and then he would go On to apologize for something On one of those Friday's things he came back and he the musical guests the pretenders. Have you seen this pretenders are behind him. You can see Chrissy Hein, ready to gentlemen, before I introduce the pretenders, I just want to talks, he's goes on this thing about health, and how you shouldn't do drugs or and this is on Fridays, the show was And people are booing and they're saying and he's just this thing. And you know, and then he finally says, I'm pretenders aren't gonna be able to. And I think the bed. They looked like wait, we're not playing. Wow, easy determined to make people mad all the you know how I just the Tony Clifton character if he wanted to just make people

Unknown:

knew that one already. You know, he had to You know, I was describing like, every comedian has their of this do I want to do? What is gonna be my voice? It's doing that, not for himself, but for the world of comedy in teaching us all what is too much of this, you know, I'm I'm going to take salts, and I'm just gonna keep on pouring know it's too much. And the fun thing about comedy is that where it's too much, and then you keep on adding salt. But you're like, Okay, well, it's a, you know, we call it the 19, where you do a joke three times, and it's perfect. And that it's kicking a dead horse until you get to the ninth funny again, that is Andy Kaufman's research that, let

Alex:

Wow. And I think 40 years later, that seems don't think anybody thought he was going to have the legacy Absolutely. I mean, the fact like Kelly said that we're know, at first when you start thinking about people today obviously nobody that's doing what he did today, but I can wanted to run by you to see how close or how influenced people in today's comedy world, Jarrett? Well, the I thought of kind of this, just beginning of cringe five years after him. There was a guy on MTV named Tom wheelhouse? Do you remember to remember Tom? Tom Green Green he was he played in that uncomfortable zone? A lot.

Unknown:

Yeah, for my for my personal taste. I think Tom little bit too much. But he definitely had those moments it is man, like, right there, you know, but he was also boundaries as well. I think that that is a I think it was Kaufman and Tom Green. I would not be surprised if Tom Green and potentially was consciously trying to be an

Alex:

Sure. Kristen Shaw,

Unknown:

Kristen Shaw. I don't you know, I don't know I in New York every once in a while, she became obviously But you know, I would see her do shows every once in a stuff that I used to see Christians shall do was what we're going to do this a lot until it's funny. Are you used to do with her partner Christian shawls? A horse?

Alex:

I'm not tell us about that. So

Unknown:

Chris is also a horse. I forget. I think her Haller. I could be pronouncing his name last name correct a bit where he would just start clapping and he would Christian Charles, Christian Charles a horse, Christian, horse when she was sort of like gallop back back and five minutes, just that, just that and it is it is peak, to keep on doing this. Until it's funny. I mean, you could reading The Great Gatsby thing. You know, was yeah,

Alex:

you can almost say your your wanting to the people to us. And now that they've all left now we can have some fun,

Unknown:

the fun is, I'm just gonna read more of this book.

Kelly:

exactly how the man on the moon movie starts. Right beginning? I had never seen it and I just watched it beginning where it's a false beginning where he comes out alienates the audience says go away, the movie is over. It's Carrey doing this. And then and then it's like a good two out and says okay if you're still here you're going to get rid of the people he basically said what you just Alex the whole thing with like Jackass and all the all the that would would just do all the crazy stunts. I'm trying you know, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah.

Jarret:

Yeah. Very,

Kelly:

that's very uncomfortable, too. But more kind of way. Like, like, there's people that like to that don't like to watch that. I'm not

Unknown:

gonna go on the record and say that those guys Andy Kaufman. But I do think that even if they were doing think that's where the intention is coming from. I thing that's fun about it is not intellectual in the way doing was intellectual. It is, it's completely bass in it is celebration of being stupid. Where I think there was intentional about what Andy Kaufman was doing. These guys happens if I shoot a firecracker out of my penis not to denigrate Jackass guys at all. I have laughed my ass movies. But it does seem to be different, you know, different know, as my wife would say, cousins, but not siblings

Alex:

One of my favorite comedians is Tim Heidecker. that it just seems like, right? Like if Andy had lived, kind of things where he kind of, like you said earlier a whole comedy special that is just a goof on bad comics, persona where he just goes out there and tells bad jokes and audience. And you're not clear if they knew what they were then in his universe, he's got a guy named Greg Turkington, Neil hamburger, who's very similar to the Tony Clifton of this slimy lounge singer that is offensive. Where do And Tim either?

Unknown:

I mean, I think Tim and Eric is classic Andy feels like the way that Andy Kaufman would use time and Eric use weirdness. You know, where I've seen bits of Tim the pause would go with Andy Kaufman. They're they're just know, we're, we're reacting to something. You know, it's it goes. Like that. So yeah, I would say there's a direct Absolutely.

Alex:

What about Sacha Baron Cohen?

Unknown:

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's all. But you know, what character on taxi? Do you remember? Latka? Yeah. Latka to the bit that commitment to the character is part of what experimenting, you know, and we saw, we talked a little bit that was before Andy Kaufman and, you know, Pink Panther. Peter Sellers used to love to say, like, you know, there's It's all just the character, you know,

Alex:

but then didn't but then boron stuff would even that, you know, like Giuliani, Giuliani, yeah. Getting his pants down. I mean, that is some brave.

Unknown:

I think that that's the that's the thing that commitment to the character bid is I'm going to let the people directly in front of me, because that's the entire if you were in on the bid, you thought he was great. If you the person being made fun of and you hated it. And what anybody who is doing that kind of character prank, comedy. I Cohen was the first person but he definitely kind of elevated I'm gonna let everybody in on the bit except for the three right now.

Alex:

Right. What about Eric Andre? That guy is definitely the next generation of this stuff where he takes it so he's gonna get killed some They kind of that next that

Unknown:

no, I completely agree. I think that there's a Eric Andre. I remember seeing a bit where he like dropped a how he Mendell who was famously has OCD. And you mean to me, you know, I wouldn't want to do that. But bad trip, there's, there's like a real joy and I'm making fun of me more than I'm making fun of other

Alex:

He is self deprecating. I mean, that's for sure. He look great. But I agree with you sometimes punches punches

Kelly:

a little bit. Is that a? Is that a thing? You know, problem I'll run into sometimes is, I will say I'll say something to, you know, and to me, it's like, or what I believe that I say it in a way that I feel like take it seriously. And so, you know, I guess you know, you canceled culture and about how it's, it's difficult sometimes I mean, for a lot of reasons, but because you have to take than you did 10 years ago. Great example is rewatching how much the US version of the office. I don't know how much last five years, 10 years. And I was a big fan when it came Gervais version as well. But I remember just cackling and in the day. And now it's kind of cringy a lot of it is like, like that uncomfortableness and the it doesn't feel like it's been that long. I guess that was 20 years. No, it

Alex:

wasn't the night. I

Jarret:

think it was 2000s. Early 2000s. Okay, well,

Kelly:

yeah, even less time then. That

Alex:

was cringe comedy, like Scott's tots was cringy then Like that is cringy. But it

Kelly:

feels even more than dinner party. It even feels it it. If that show. Somebody told me maybe it was you, the the office was getting rebooted. Which, which I'm going to do that. Because it feels like that would be off more people than it made laugh. Because back then it laugh.

Jarret:

Well, I do feel like we're talking about two there's the sort of ironic sexism and racism that was in you've got this character who means well, but they have a And it kind of comes out like in the episode where he's having everybody walk around with cards. I'm winning the blah, blah, blah. But then there's also like, like, I making this decision, and it hurts to watch them, you know, girl. And he thinks that the way to, you know do it is to on nine dates, you know, like, those are two completely mechanisms. I think, now, where the, I can't believe of comedy comes from, I've never found that to be all like, I have a really hard time watching people be like that. Now, where the ironic racism and sexism stuff little bit more tolerance for it earlier, because I don't think we we viewed it as being a part of the solution, as problem. And I remember growing up with this in the PC was the thing back then. And me and my friends used to bit being very Kaufman like that there was this under knew about was that we were good progressives who did not was

Kelly:

right on, you're saying that to be ironic, you're but But it's so easy to, to it to hurt somebody's feelings, with that. And so you're up on stage every night? And, you know when it's okay? You think to yourself, oh, man, I've got to probably tick off this group of people. Should I say that inner dialogue in your head sound like?

Unknown:

Well, I mean, it's, it's a little bit of a know, you've got, who am I going to upset in the not want to agree with me in the audience, and this is sort this ironic, you know, racism and sexism and whatnot, is it's not part of the solution. It's part of the problem people who watch that and think that they're not being opposed to being ironic and it's bad. I can tell I can have done jokes that are ironically anti Some medic or somebody will come up to them after the show, and say that what? That it was funny. And so there are a lot of who are moving away from that kind of irony, because we we think that we need to stop making those kinds of jokes.

Kelly:

we were talking about Dave, earlier de bird and actually a part where I think some frat guys come up to him what you were talking about in and I forget what the song being ironic in the song, and they're agreeing with him. And by that. So it's, yeah, yeah, it's, you know, everybody's it's called, it's called the, the YouTubes, and the podcasts so easy to get heard by people who will take you out of

Unknown:

Yeah, I have done no research into this. But I a data scientist God on this, that we could see a semitism that started with potentially the ironic anti Park, because the reason why anti semitism was funny in so it was such an old and antiquated version of, of bringing it back. And then people started bringing it know, when I was a waiter, my friends would throw pennies on like, Oh, this is so funny to be to pretend to be anti into real anti semitism. And now, you know, like, we've got again, you know? Yeah, yeah, the guy who did Bojack interview, where he talked about this, where he was like, all day, all right, to have a character who is racist, or justify it by saying that it's just the character, but we the audience does with that material. And we don't have as right. If

Kelly:

they're putting if they're putting him on a flag, they do terrible things to people. That's not good.

Unknown:

Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, is it is it is a interesting journey. It is an adventure and yeah, it is

Kelly:

do you pick on people? Do you like do you like pick And you know, kind of like, what's your name, sir? How are him? Or, you know,

Unknown:

extremely rarely extremely rare, whatever, you Yeah, I do a little bit of crowd work. I even write be crowd work. Mostly, if I'm ever gonna go after an they are being disruptive or have said something offensive kind of comedy that I have. Made a a cornerstone, you I like to be as a comedian you know, 5% Kaufmann 5% that

Kelly:

so if you go to a Jarrett Berenstein show, you feel like you're gonna you

Unknown:

can wear the dumbest shirt you want. I am not going Challenge.

Alex:

I wanted to mention just one more cringe comic that I mention him because he's one of my favorite cringe guys out opinion, really genius stuff. That had to be influenced by Nathan fields. Oh,

Jarret:

yeah, absolutely.

Alex:

I mean, Nathan, for you is one of my favorite shows recent show the curse, the rehearsed HBO show, before incredible stuff. But really, if like, I'm really careful

Unknown:

I mean, he's just good. He's just so good. I watching some of that stuff. But you cannot deny how funny clever and creative it is. And yeah, direct line, one to one

Alex:

to empathic. It hurts to watch really bad for the chat.

Unknown:

My wife was just with that stuff. I cannot watch too

Alex:

I don't think I would watch this like, but just like not sure who is in on the gym, like that's part of it. And maybe I'm not in there on the joke like, Yeah, you don't

Kelly:

I just I do not. But not being in on the joke. I interesting today that, you know, the, you know, the know, I am not a robot. The purpose of those is to prove you know what they're really looking at? Like if you have you know, show all the pictures of bicycles. So at if you get the answer right or not. They're looking at how an algorithm that can tell the difference between how the human, and that's what it's looking at. And so you can I gotten one of those wrong, like, you know, you've gotten through. But it's my point is, you know, where did this come about this? Is, is you don't know you're you're not in on know you think you think that you are solving one thing and completely different than being looked at in a determine whether you're a bot or not, you know, I

Unknown:

mean, CAPTCHA has always been one of my favorite Andy Kaufman stuff captures.

Alex:

Who ever thought we'd end?

Kelly:

Well, what? Well, oh, go ahead.

Alex:

Go ahead with your question. Oh, I

Kelly:

was just gonna ask what what? You know, how do people You

Unknown:

can check out Jared bernstein.com I've got all my my upcoming projects. I am a regular poster of videos on see me be really moralistic and intolerable. from a do live sometimes I'm actually leaving to go on my honeymoon for a while. But when I come back again, yeah, check me out where you're going? That is where we're going. Yeah. Wow.

Alex:

But what so when you said social media, you're

Unknown:

I yeah, I'm not not on there. I don't think that content. But yeah, you can find me on Tik Tok and that stuff where I post my videos I do lives on tick tock yeah, Joe breaks into calm is really the home base for all

Kelly:

Have you been to Japan before?

Unknown:

I have not noticed is very exciting. Excited.

Kelly:

Are you going to Kyoto? We aren't. Yeah, that's where time. Oh, man. I just I hate to admit how I know about feed Phil and Phil Phil. Phil. Rosenthal went to Kyoto and that show, it's like a travel food show. It's I enjoy it. song in the world. Whoo.

Unknown:

All right. Well check it out just for that. Yes.

Alex:

Well, thanks, Jarrett, for being our guest today. comedy, all things Andy Kaufman talking about cringe being our very first guest on this

Unknown:

was an absolute honor to break this new ground with my philosophical musings about the deeper arts of creativity

Alex:

Definitely. Thanks. I

Kelly:

appreciate it.

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Alex Milam

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Kelly Shores

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