#12 Building a Sustainable Future through Collaboration between East and West. Hedda Sasburg from Sustainability Included

Hedda Sasburg is the owner of Orange Swallow and Sustainability Included. In this podcast, Hedda shared with us her journey to China, which began in 1997 when she took the Trans-Siberian Express from Moscow to Beijing. As a business economist, she was fascinated by China's economic growth and outbound activities. Later, she adopted a daughter from China. This personal connection inspired her to start her consultancy business with China. 

With 30 years of experience in the sustainability field, Hedda also discussed the developments in this area both in Europe and Asia. She shared her unique perspective on how collaboration between Western companies and their suppliers in Asia can create social and environmental impact. We also discussed the pressing issues of reducing overproduction, promoting self-awareness, and changing our own behavior as consumers. 

In this podcast, we also mentioned a collaborative initiative between Hedda and me to set up Netherlands-China Sustainability Circle. We believe by learning from each other and collaborating with each other, we can build a community to create a sustainable future together! 

LinkedIn Hedda Sassburg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heddasasburg/ 

Website Orange Swallow: https://orangeswallow.nl/ 

Website Sustainability Included: https://sustainabilityincluded.nl/ 

Email Hedda: h.sasburg@orangeswallow.com 

WeChat: heddasasburg

You can watch or listen to the podcast on the following platforms: 

🌱 YouTube: https://youtu.be/mhP05a7PGJo 

🌱Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/23MDLHw0ZIZEo05AsNhwjq 

🌱 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/our-cultures-our-world/id1650591999 

🌱 Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8yMDY5NTYxLnJzcw 

🌱 Buzzsprout Podcast website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2069561  

Because this is an episode about sustainability, I want to share a few interesting resources with you:

1. I followed the Collective Responsibility YouTube channel some time ago, and I really learned a lot from the thought-provoking interviews. Collective Responsibility explores the intersection of sustainability, business, and society. This channel features expert interviews and insightful discussions on topics such as circular economy, social innovation, CSR, and green finance. If you're interested in learning about the latest trends in sustainability or looking for practical solutions to tackle global challenges, Collective Responsibility is definitely a channel worth checking out. You can search for Collective Responsibility on YouTube or find their link in the podcast show notes: https://www.youtube.com/@Coresponsibility/featured  

2. For the people living in the Netherlands, I also want to share a very interesting event in the sustainability area, that is “Conclusion” which will take place on the 8th of June in Naarden. The theme of the event is: Building Sustainable Ecosystems. Eleven keynote speakers from various industries and backgrounds will share their insights and knowledge on the latest trends, innovations, and solutions for building a sustainable future.  You can find the link to this event in the podcast show notes: https://buildingsustainableecosystems.conclusionevents.nl/    

More information about Our Cultures & Our World Podcast: https://iibboo.com/podcast/

Transcript

Mei:

Good morning, Hedda. Welcome to my podcast. Could you please give us a little bit introduction about you and what you do?

Hedda:

Yeah, good morning, Mei. Thank you for having me in your podcast. As you say, my name is Hedda, Hedda Sosburg. I'm owner of two companies at the moment, which is Orange Swallow, consultancy, and the other one is sustainability included. Orange Swallow is focusing on bridging Asia with the Netherlands and in that we support companies coming from Asia to Netherlands and sometimes always the other way around. And within sustainability included is a company, well, focusing on sustainability, of course, supporting companies and also governments and sectors, groups of companies in making the world more sustainable in terms of more sustainable production, more sustainable trades, design for recycling, all those kinds of things

Mei:

Yeah, thank you, Hedda, for your introduction. You have been working with China for many years. Why China? How did you start with this journey?

Hedda:

Yeah, actually it started with a journey. In 1997, I believe, my husband and I, we took the Trans-Siberia Express from Moscow to Beijing. And we spent some time in Mongolia, traveling in Mongolia, over the grasslands and so on. And finally then we came to China. I've been to Beijing that time. the country and seeing what's happening. And at that time it was not that easy to travel around. Later, yeah, I saw with my background as a business economist, I saw the enormous increase of the economy, of the activities, of going outbound, opening up, those kinds of things. And yeah, I always had the idea like I would like to contribute or with that country. It was fascinating me in a way. And yeah, later on in my private area something else happened. My husband and I were about to get children. Some people just get children. For us it was not that easy. We first get a son and we decided to adopt another child. That's my daughter and she comes from China. So There is this connection. I feel that 25% of my family is Chinese. My daughter is now 18 years old, so an adult. But yeah, it's part of the family. We are Dutch, we live in the Netherlands. My daughter feels Dutch and a bit Chinese. Maybe that changes later, that's what you often see. That all together led me to the point that I decided I would like to do something with China, something in consultancy, because that's my professional background. Didn't know yet what, but in 2016 I decided like something like yeah, if I should do it now or never, you know, if you don't do things in your life you later regret that you didn't try. You can always stop or something, but just go for it. it.

Mei:

Yeah, great. Hedda, just to follow your heart and just do the things you really dreamed to do.

So, I'm so happy that you did that. That brought you to my podcast so that we can have this conversation.

Hedda:

Otherwise you would never have met, I think.

Mei:

Exactly, China brought us together. Hedda, how was it to travel in China? 

Hedda:

Yeah, you know, in general, I love traveling. My husband loves traveling. Well, that's what we have in common. We have more things in common than travel, but of course. But before we get kids, we have been to really a lot of countries and we always liked to visit the companies that were not yet that explored, not the standard tourist destinations of that time. And well, so Mongolia was something That was intriguing for us. And then traveling all the way to Beijing was, yeah, really, yeah, we really want to do that. If you ask me like, how was it? It was a completely new experience because at that time as a foreigner, you were not allowed to go yourself where you wanted. Like now, we entered Datong, from Mongolia, and there we had to go to the, I believe it was the CITS post in railway station to get stamps and somebody guided us to a bus to bring us to the hotel. And the hotel was not to be chosen by us, but by them. You know, we booked a tour to the famous monasteries over there and yeah, we were put into a tour group, all with Chinese. full excursion. But we, well, with, you know, with your hands and signals, you can understand when there is a break and when you have to go back to the bus and whatever. So it was really a yeah, a new experience in terms also of communicating and the freedom that we were used to have when traveling. And at that point, it was guided, you know. But yeah, the culture was travel. At this time, traveling is not that interesting anymore as it was because there are not so many surprises anymore. You know, you can look everything up in the internet, you know what you're going to see, you even know how your room would look like and what's on the menu in the restaurant where you stay during your holiday. And then, yeah, we just went somewhere and discovered and asked our and yeah, it was intriguing.

Mei:

Yeah, it sounds, yeah, intriguing, also adventurous. You never know what you will encounter. And what impressed you the most when you and your husband came to China for the first time? 

Hedda:

I think the number of people. I remember we went, it was the time that the first McDonald's just opened and there were queuing and queuing before the McDonald's. There was in that area, there was well, small, I think maybe Korean or Japanese brand, small taxis or something. For us, difficult to take taxi because we, well, with the language, you know, we could just point it out in our book, like we like to go there or something. So we walked a lot, was no metro, of course. So yeah, everything, the smells, the people, we always, with our travels, we always like to be part of the common life of people in terms like go to a restaurant where the locals go, sit in a square on a bench and see what's happening. If possible, try to have a small talk with somebody. In China, yeah, now I remember. In China, what impressed me a lot is what happens in the squares in the night. The music goes on, people do their line dancing, or they come out with their birds or yeah you know those kind of things we don't know in the West. Yeah the community thing.

Mei:

Yeah, I can imagine if you... I think this is still a very different part for the Westerners if they go to China. If I travel, my husband is Dutch, when I travel with him to China, It's for my daughters. It's so fascinating and the children are playing around. People come together to chat and you can have all kinds of activities, dancing, square dancing. So it's really very lively. 

And did this experience brought you, made you to decide to adopt a daughter from China? 

Hedda:

No, to be honest, it didn't go that way. Adoption is kind of a carousel. At that time, now I believe it's different, the world changed, but at that time, so in around 2001, 2003 something, we adopted her in 2005. to go to government training for several weeks, several hours per week, I would say, about

being a parent of an adoptive child, to know a little bit more about the background, what mentally, psychologically happens with the child and how can you take good care of the child and how can you

be a safe haven? you bond, you know, these kind of things.

And then when you then finalize that part, then you have to go through all kinds of processes. People from, it was at that time, was the Ministry of Justice, they have a special people educated to visit prospective parents for adopted children. They come for home visits to check how serious you are, if you're able of an adoptive child, they go through your financials. You really have to prove everything before you are eligible for adoption. Now finally you come to a stage where you can see like, okay, how is this world now? I mean, there are many countries that had children in orphanages also change their rules and their methods. So some countries say, okay, you have to be married for 10 years, or you have to have a Catholic belief, or because then the children are in a Catholic orphanage or something, you know? So, and then also for some countries you have a waiting list for four years, and other countries have short waiting lists. So that all together came to a point like And then China was really, at that moment, yeah, we were, of course, countries you have nothing with, we just skip. But yeah, China was possible to adopt from, but it changed in half a year. Before that, it had a very long waiting list, so we would have never chosen for China because then it was something like three years waiting.  It's kind of a gift from China. That's how I felt. 

Mei:

Yeah, I can imagine. Thank you for sharing this process because it's so important, I think, for all of the children to come to live with a warm, loving family and to grow up, yeah, taken good care of by the adoption elders. 

And Hedda, you mentioned in your intro that you have two companies, consultancy companies. Could you share us with us about what those companies, maybe some activities and projects?

Hedda:

Okay, let's start then with Oren Swallow. I started to do something with China, like I said. Well, we started this with business travel. Guiding business travel groups, like business delegations, missions, whatever, but also companies that want to do business in the Netherlands. support them in their efforts to find partners or to visit companies, to build their network, to set up a market here. We supported with a market analysis, a business plan for Netherlands or just like matchmaking events. We supported companies just to establish something here or to set up some sales. That all stopped when COVID came of course. And that brings me to sustainability included. I already said I'm a business economist from background. I studied in Rotterdam. Well, it's what we call the blue, the hard side of business, of professions. background, how I grew up with my parents, environmental things, nature, everything was important and was, yeah, I mean, I grew up with it. It's in my nerves, you know, something. So it's in my DNA, I would say. So I started to work in my first job was in an environmental consulting engineers working in sustainability and me and somebody else were in that company because they wanted to develop more the business side. It was kind of new at that time because it was already in 1993. So I calculated it 30 years ago. What we added there and what the I still do is support companies not in how technically solve things. I know a lot of techniques because they're in all our projects, but more like, okay, how do you organize it? How do you create a recycling

system? How do you develop a plan? How do you make something from the top level in a company? or a strategy, how do you bring it to the work floor? How do you, in the Netherlands, on all

levels you need commitment, it's not a top-down decision that you just have to execute it, yeah, in a way it is, but in another way there are a lot of experience and interest and ideas on the work floor that needs to go up to the top to be able to make a strategy also working and operational. So that's the work that I did for long in the Netherlands with...  

I started my own company after a few years with two former colleagues from that first company and that company is called Sustainability Included. So it's still there working on the same issues and And of course the insights in the world have changed. And the motivation for companies and for governments is not yet idealistic anymore, but it's a necessity. It's also an added value for companies or a new business model to work in sustainability. So we now have concepts that we call circular economy or we have now the reporting requirements like ESG, reporting or a responsibility for recycling and for full supply chain. 

That creates a lot of questions from companies or pressure from buyers or from governments on certain companies that are not the frontrunners. I prefer to do that also with Asian companies, but I'm just in the starting process of setting up something also with companies in Vietnam. I would love to do something also in China with companies in that field. Because many Chinese companies are manufacturing as a supplier for European companies, European market or is available but send it to here as a competitor and they all have to fulfill the requirements of the EU or of the end buyer. So for all those suppliers it's important to improve.

Mei:

Yeah. Yeah, certainly there are many, a lot of possibilities, but also a lot of challenges, I think, for if we talk about sustainability. I had four months ago, I think you went to Vietnam together with a trade mission from the minister, with the minister of foreign trades. You visited a lot of factories with the delegation. I think you really saw what was happening in the sustainability field. Could you share with us a little bit about this trade mission, what you have seen, and also what are the insights? 

Hedda:

Yeah, I decided to join the trade mission with Minister Scheinwacher, her name, as it was a very outstanding opportunity as the European business community in Vietnam, in Ho Chi Minh City, have developed a European expo on sustainability, on circular economy, Vietnamese businesses. They did that together with the government over there. They have a lot of regulations in place since 2021 and 2 on circular economy, on recycling, on sustainability in general. And so it was a very good opportunity to meet likewise people, but also meet potential counterparts in Vietnam. Yeah, since COVID, this was the first opportunity to go live, you know. So that was also a great experience again. We met a lot of organizations and companies. Within the trade mission, I went only to visit the company over there, which produced mainly sports shoes like Nike and Adidas etc. Huge factories. I would say they were kind of starting up, modernizing the factory in terms of environment. They were installing huge fields of solar panels on the roof. Not everything was working well in terms of regulations yet. paid for the electricity that you produce but legally some things have to be solved. 

Those things are always first steps I think. I spoke with several business leaders also from I would say western companies and I also met several I would say well chairmen, chairwomen from associations of sectors like the furniture sector but also a women's association, women's business owners association I would say and they were all very interested in learning more about circularity and how to do that but also on ESG so the reporting requirements and the way to improve gradually improve the business but one of the one of the hard things there is that if you're a supplier to a Western company, you just have to follow up the orders that you get. So the design of a product is done not by you as a manufacturer, but by the client. So if a large fashion company decides a new clothing line for next year or whatever, the design but the materials and the type of textile and the prints and whatever. There's not so much to decide yourself. So you can only do your own manufacturing in the best way but you do not yet have the freedom we here have if we produce something in the Netherlands and a product, you have so many decisions to make, that's not the common situation in Vietnam for the majority of the companies. So

Mei:

You are a consultant for a company to advise them to help them make this sustainable shifts and mindset shifts or just concrete steps. What kind of steps they can really take to make this transformation?

Hedda:

Well, if you're talking about businesses as customers, so the business to business field, I believe strongly in that every company from, I would say the West or Europe or the US or whatever, the big, the countries that import a lot from Vietnam or China, what you hear quite often is that it's said, produce everything in Europe or let's be better in control and they are polluting over there or the circumstances, the labour circumstances are not good, we must get rid of it or something. I strongly believe in collaboration. I believe that together you should try to make those recycling or more useless materials or whatever. If you, as a company, if you decide to get your, if you have a factory now in China or Vietnam that's producing for you, and if you decide just to go somewhere else, because for instance, the environmental score or something is better, then you leave out the first company that you already build up a relationship with to continuing doing the same, I guess, and you move to another location. But then still the pollution or the bad work situation, you know, it's also the social, the labour situation or something, might stay the same. 

I believe that Western companies should use their influence and use their good connection, suppliers in improving together, if possible of course, because that would make our world all together much better. Those people could keep their jobs, their environment would be cleaner, they might be a little bit more independent and to choose maybe their own suppliers or whatever. And at the end, I think that the end product is better. So it's another way of enforcing. You could also say I move to a supplier that produces cleaner, I go to France or to Eastern Europe or whatever, it's much more control. I could manage it better, the logistics are maybe easier, it's maybe less polluting because it doesn't come from far. However, taking a truck or putting it in a container on a ship, it's a bit depending on this but it's not always more sustainable I would say. So I believe in collaboration and improving together if possible. And I do hope that we don't move everything back to Europe. Don't talk about geopolitics because that's another reason to move things but if supply chains from Asia, it has nothing to do with geopolitics. It's also the social and environmental issues that we need to tackle together. Yeah.

Mei:

Yeah, exactly. And it's very interesting your point of view. I think I also strongly believe that collaboration should be a very good starting point to help the manufacturers in Asia to improve their production to make it more sustainable. Also, I think the end user, if end user, the consumers can pay more from educating the end user, us. 

Hedda:

Yeah, I also feel a bit like sustainability is not only about choosing the right materials or well, the majority of people in Vietnam, for instance, think about waste and recycling and plastic. But that's not all. I mean, one of the bad things of how we work now, I'm thinking of fast fashion. for instance, because everybody knows, is that the companies that have a cheap production somewhere in Asia, they order a certain number of collections per year and they don't know if it will go fast or not, if it will become a trend or not, because they have to order in advance. So what is happening is overproduction of textiles, of clothing. I heard, well, don't pin me on the figures, but on the numbers, but something like 30 to even 35% of what is produced in clothing is never worn. It will be thrown away before it ever reaches the consumer because of the over-ordering of the end buyers, in this case, the large companies that sell for low prices. So in Vietnam for instance, and I believe also in countries like Indonesia, in the same area there's all of landfill with new clothing that's never used. It's huge. So we produce a lot and the same maybe also for furniture maybe that is used but only have a very short lifespan. that sell very low priced stuff. And well, that makes consumers, even my own children, which are well educated and conscious, but they think, oh, I could buy this. And if I don't like it, yeah, I just buy something else. You know, that's how we grow up in the previous something like 30, 25 years or so here. Like it has a very short lifespan. to change our attitude and behaviour, that will help a lot. Because everything that's not produced, same with food, everything that's not produced is also not polluting, doesn't use our resources. Yeah, so that's where we should start, with ourselves. But also with the population in We made ourselves behaving like this. We created it ourselves. And that's what we should turn back. That's really hard.

Mei:

Yeah, it's, everything starts with the awareness, self-awareness. I think this, yeah, that's why it's also so interesting to have this podcast to interview you, to hear your perspectives. And I think we got some new insights about how we can really and to contribute to solving this huge challenge for humankind at this moment. 

Hedda, you also participated in a lot of sustainability events in the Netherlands in the last year. I heard many interesting events and you went to visit the companies who are producing EVs, also events organized by organizations around the topic of sustainability. Do you see also a huge, and because you are working in this field already for so many years, do you also see a huge shift of minds and mindsets and awareness of people if you compare to the past?

Hedda:

Yeah, I think everybody now sees much better within companies, but also consumers, what is needed. That's not the same as the companies prepared to invest money to create that change that's needed. Some companies have a hard time and cannot afford themselves, but it's a complete other stage, I think, that we're in than when compared something like 20 or 25 years ago. Then it was kind of considered as idealistic maybe or kind of a luxury like okay we do well as a company and we should also do something we should be environmental conscious or we should educate people so we need to have case studies or whatever. Of course the good companies and dedicated to do the right thing. But the majority has always been waiting for the time that order is a necessity, order is a very good business model, you know, so you can earn money with it. Or, yeah, you also see now there's a protest if the regulations go too fast, or if in the Netherlands the best kid in class, you know. Yeah, that would bring our companies maybe in a situation that they cannot compete with others anymore, like the old discussions. 

But in general, at first it was a boardroom thing and more idealistic and there was not really a need for being sustainable running your business and now it's yeah if you if you're not doing mvo as we call it in netherland so csr if you don't have a mission on a strategy well if you're a stock uh if you if you're still most of the company uh your shareholders expect you to behave well and to to follow the guidelines and to uh to do it maybe a bit better investment companies and in the Netherlands, the pension funds, they, they require this and otherwise they, well, they, they take back their investment, you know, so that's yeah, things changed completely in that, uh, in that sense. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that for every company it's, it's possible to take big steps if you're just, uh, if you're a family owned business, for instance, and if you're medium sized and if you just have your, your revenues and your maybe and take a big step, cost you a lot of investment and brings you a lot of uncertainty, I do understand it's not something you decide from today or tomorrow to do. You need help or guidance or do it together with others or get a good perspective or a risk assessment that takes out a bit of the risks.

Mei:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing this development. If we look in terms of doing business with China,  you help a lot of Chinese delegations to visit all kinds of spots in the Netherlands, and you also work with a lot of Chinese people. And if you look at this, if we don't focus on the sustainability, what can Dutch people learn from Chinese people and what can Chinese people learn from Dutch people what are all strengths for each other if we think about the exchange of knowledge?

Hedda:

Yeah, it's interesting I think. Yeah, what I... As I'm educated in how to set up business, how to develop business, how to manage things, we from the Netherlands, from the Dutch, but let's stick with the Netherlands, we are used to do some planning, if possible. We talk a lot and we maybe wait too long or quite long, let's skip the two, but we wait and we make a very in-depth analysis before we make a decision and we step into something new. You don't get money for a business plan if it's not elaborated well enough and If I look from the Chinese side, I see entrepreneurs, companies just stepping into the European market by sending one or two people, setting up a representative office here or a daughter company or something, willing to conquer the European market, starting from the Netherlands, which is a very good idea because we are a tiny country, easy to navigate. English is easy to use, you know, it's a very good reason to start in the Netherlands. 

But what is often not seen or not expected is that we, our governments, but also our other business partners, they expect from you, from you as a Chinese entrepreneur, some ideas about the future, some planning, some idea about how much to invest. where will it end and what is the result in five years or something, or maybe in two years. Or we get a lot of requests from Chinese companies that want to come here in the market with, for instance, batteries for solar panels or chargers for electric cars. I know those markets quite well, but there's a lot of competition. as a Dutch company before they decided to collaborate with such a Chinese company, you should be well prepared. You should do a market research, what's at competition, what is the competition, what is the pricing, which kind of target group do you want to focus on? And then you could present that to a potential partner, like I'm the ideal partner for you, because I'm good in this and this and this. These are my unique selling points. to end consumer with batteries, my battery is better than yours. Not saying like my battery is better than yours, because everybody says so. But okay, exactly, how can you prove it? What is your track record? What is the, how will you develop your market? 

So I see on one hand, Chinese companies just taking risks, investing somewhere, setting people in the Netherlands to develop something which they fail or they succeed, that's accepted. Failure is, okay, you should not fail, but it's accepted because it's a try. And from our side, we like to do a lot of planning, so something in the middle, and we could learn from each other. we should understand that Chinese work like this, I would say the trial and error method. And they should understand that the Dutch want more planning because we trust that more, that's how we are educated in our universities. So that's what I see, a kind of a common misunderstanding companies sometimes don't understand why Dutch are not yet interested to collaborate. Because there's nothing in their opinion, there's nothing. All the work has to start. You know, you're not ready to enter this market.

Mei:

Yeah, I think like you said so well, we can meet each other somewhere in between. But this is also something we can learn from each other, I think. 

Hedda:

but you also see, that this, and the Dutch start, Dutch companies are startups or whatever, they start very small, like one, two, three, four, five people. In China, you see startups, and then after two months, they get a lot of money in from banks or investors. And then suddenly they have 100 or 200 people in development. Okay, it's a huge risk, but on the other hand, you have an enormous potential. If you put 200 people in R&D and sales, you can really reach something. So that's how you see the difference in thinking also. 

Mei:

Hedda, just to wrap up this podcast, could you please give people, the listeners, some tips based on your years of experiences working with Chinese, how they can do business successfully was Chinese people?

Hedda:

Yeah, I would say relationship, build up relationship is one, is the most important. And the Western people are quite used to find a partner that fits with their business profile or with their products or whatever. And of course, that's a standard. But how it works in Asia, as I experienced. and heard a lot about it also, is to build up a relationship with people through meeting them, spending time together. For instance, I would always advise if you have a product to sell, try to go to find one of the expos. There are expos all over China. You can meet the people in meet up later. I used and I advise people also to use the Dutch network in China, like the consulates and embassy and we have the Netherlands business support offices, NBSO, in a lot of hotspots in China I would say. They support the Dutch businesses in building up their network, connecting them. 

So yeah, be prepared to go and to meet up with people What I always do is if I spend two or three days in an expo, I have one more week or one and a half more week with a half or almost empty agenda, which fills up quite easily because people invite you or you invite people to have a dinner or a lunch together. You chit chat together about your experiences. What do you think of China? maybe your family situation, your children, your holidays, whatever, but you build up something personal. And my experience is also that that's highly valued, that you spend that time together. And what I feel is that Chinese companies, Chinese business owners, do in the West, they do not invite 20 other competitors of yours or three, four, five other competitors of yours and do the same. If what you offer or if your business plan or your products are fitting well, you're a nice person, you like each other, you feel a click privately also, then they don't see why they should not do any business with you. Having time, not just rushing and going back to Europe after an expo or something. I think that's the best way to do. And also be open to each other.

They can learn from you, but you can also learn from them. There is a lot of wisdom and value and experience on the Chinese side. That's also with sustainability. I think, yeah, Mei and I, we are both willing to do in sustainability in the field of people in the Netherlands that are more, yeah, I would say devoted to develop some new things and improve sustainability issues. And the Chinese counterparts. companies also in sustainability and how to solve certain issues. 

So, well, we are planning together to set up a kind of community, a Netherlands-China Sustainability Circle, a network to collaborate, to learn from each other, to maybe to build up new things and new experiences. So, if you're listening and if you think, to be part of that. I'm also in sustainability and I really have the same mission and would like to to contribute. Well you could always approach Mei or me. 

Mei:

Yeah, thank you, Hedda, for sharing the tips and also sharing this idea we are just trying to make it happen. we really want to contribute, collaborate and really make a difference on this world and to make a better world and leave a better world for our children and grandchildren. And yeah, this is such an important issue at the moment.  

Thank you for everything and thank you for your time. Hedda, how can people get in contact with you and also get to know more about your businesses and your services? 

Hedda:

I would say the easiest way is find me on LinkedIn, Hedda Sasberg. I'm the only one, that's easy. You could always also send an email. Easiest is to info at orange swallow dot com or use my name to find it. I have WeChat, you can find me with my name in WeChat too. easy to find.

Mei:

Okay, great. Hedda, I will put on the website and your LinkedIn link. And also, if you don't mind, I will put your WeChat in the podcast show notes. So if people are interested to get in touch with Hedda, you can find all of the information in the podcast show notes and in the YouTube show notes. Hedda, thank you so much for having this conversation with me! I really enjoyed it.

Hedda:

Yeah, I did enjoy it too.