#13 The Journey of Building a Successful Marketing Automation Business in China. Jacco Bouw from WebPower and Agency China

Jacco Bouw is a marketing technology expert who founded WebPower 24 years ago, just 2 years after he graduated from the university. WebPower is a marketing technology company specializing in email marketing. Ten years ago, Jacco also founded Agency China, which is specialized in social media marketing. 

In this podcast, Jacco shared his journey of expanding his business to China in 2006 with a mission to bring marketing automation technology to the Chinese market.

 “I can write one book about all my failures!” Jacco told me. But with persistence and strategies, Jacco succeeded in scaling up his business in China three years after he started there. 

For years, Webpower and Agency China have been serving many customers and famous brands from Western countries and China with their marketing in China. It was fascinating to hear about Jacco’s journey, about cultural differences, different speeds of getting things done, and different ways of problem-solving. 

Furthermore, we also talked about the impact of AI on marketing technology, and the future of work and education. It was a lot of fun to share with each other about the changes we both saw in China after not being able to visit China for more than three years because of Covid. 

I really enjoyed this conversation and learned a lot from Jacco. I hope you will also get many insights from him. So, have fun and enjoy the conversation!

Contact details of Jacco Bouw:
LinkedIn Jacco Bouw: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaccobouw/

Website Agency China: https://agencychina.com/

Website WebPower China: https://www.webpowerchina.com/en/

Email Jacco: info@agencychina.com 

You can watch or listen to the podcast on the following platforms: 

🌱YouTube: https://youtu.be/4_Mq8LSjWYU

🌱Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/23MDLHw0ZIZEo05AsNhwjq 

🌱 Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/our-cultures-our-world/id1650591999 

🌱 Google Podcast: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5idXp6c3Byb3V0LmNvbS8yMDY5NTYxLnJzcw 

🌱 Buzzsprout Podcast website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2069561 

More information about Our Cultures & Our World Podcast: https://iibboo.com/podcast/

Transcript

Mei:

Good morning, Jacco. Welcome to my podcast. Please first give our listeners a brief introduction about you and what you do.

Jacco:

Great, thanks for having me. Now, good to be in your podcast. Yeah, like you said, my name is Jaco. Moved to China in 2006. So it's already quite some years ago. And my mission was bringing marketing automation technology to the Chinese market.

Mei: 

Yeah, it's already a long time ago, you went to China in 2006, and you are a martech expert. Could you please tell us more, how did you start in China and in that time and to bring this marketing technology to China? I can imagine it's a totally different world. 

Jacco: 

Definitely. I started doing email marketing in 1990 already here in the Netherlands. So we were really early adopters about this technology in this market. 2005 we've got Sweden, but still a small market and we said that we need to have large volumes. So we did, I moved actually over to China to build up the business over there. And trying to serve also the airline companies we did here in Europe, trying to serve them in China too. The first client was the World of Warcraft, the gaming industry, but it has really high volumes, large databases, and we do email campaigns for them within the Chinese market. 

And that's how we grow from 2006 and the years after. grow our network with all our airline companies, but also the Starbucks, the loyalty programs, Disneyland, China. So all this communication, email communication, later also the WeChat communication, it's all served by us. 

And not forget SMS, that was that time really big in China, even if it's not used for marketing purposes here in Europe. And actually, I should say, not here in Netherlands, because in Sweden and Spain, we have seen quite a lot of companies using SMS as well. But China, it's still big. If you be there, you see it on your phone. You're called often, but also you get a lot of messages that you can't read. But that's how it works in China. And that's how we did our business there as well. So that's how we started. 

Mei: 

Yeah, I, it's a, it seemed to me really a huge leap for your company to suddenly need to deal with such a huge population. I understood from you with the Minecraft, you need to send millions of emails, right?

Jacco:

We did millions of emails and we thought we can do it in a few days, but it turns out that it takes over a week to send out this campaign. The volumes were a little bit different than the volumes we are used to here in Europe. 

Mei:

Yeah, what's the volume in Europe you normally deal with? 

Jacco:

The largest volume we did at that time was a bit over 1 million in one batch. Then we started with 40 million in one batch. So that was the big differences 

Mei:

Yeah, and did you hire a lot of people to work on this project? How did you manage to scale up in such an amazing way?

Jacco: 

The thing is that starting China without speaking the language is always quite difficult. So we started with... I found out actually a Chinese guy, really good guy, was studying here in the Netherlands. And together with him we decided to start China. So he did all the translation work and I did come up with some ideas on how we can do it and how we can solve it. Can we solve issues? So, and that time... It was not really common that you have a lot of Western companies, especially not in this industry. It was all still in the internet bars that you can find everywhere on the street. So it was really in the beginning over there to do this marketing automation stuff in the marketing part.

Mei: 

Yeah, and Jacco, you graduated from Utrecht University of Applied Sciences in 1997. And two years later in 1999, you started Web Power, a very innovative email marketing company. Share with us about the process of starting your own company just two years after your graduation and to become a very successful entrepreneur.

Jacco: 

Yeah, I think it's in the genes if you've been an entrepreneur or not. And so I think that there is where it starts. So you're always searching for possibilities. You're always trying to, to find, find ideas, what you can do. And they can also you're interested in because in the end, if you, if it hasn't your interest, you will never be successful because being an entrepreneur is also quite often going further and go forward. and seeing things and take a lot of risks actually as well. So it's the same thing for us also. When we did go to China, we didn't have any experience in China mainland. Let's just go and see where it ends. So it's something in the genes, I think. You cannot, I'm not sure if you can learn it. So it's to being an entrepreneur.

 Mei: 

Yeah. If I look at your journey, it's really, really very entrepreneurial. And because you started your company, Web Power, two years after your graduation, after seven years, you scale up. and you went to China without knowing the country, without having guanxi, your own network there. And so I think it must be quite difficult when you just landed in China with this employee you found from the school in the Netherlands, Chinese guy, I understood. And how did it start really from scratch? in China. What's your journey and what's the difficulties you faced? 

Jacco: 

I can write one book about all the failures we made, but it's not really interesting, I think. Now we can laugh about it, but the time, if you've been there, it's quite stressful. But in the end, you're really optimistic to achieve new goals. So that's why you're still working on the same goal, getting your business done. So you hired a few people in the beginning already, starting for sales, starting to search for clients. Yeah, how it starts, it's a process where you're going through making a lot of mistakes and sometimes you're lucky that you're making deals. The biggest change for us was that our competitors were big spammers and spamming is something different than email marketing.

To explain that to clients, it's quite difficult. So what we decided, in the end, is if we can make an anti-spam law in China, let's go for it. So our competitors can't do the job anymore. So that's what we thought and what we did within 24 hours, wrote the whole anti-spam law for China. And then we started lobbying to getting this law, yeah, getting this law within China. And that we succeed a few years later, less than two years later, and makes it immediately that it starts to be an industry. Being an industry means that companies are contacting you as well because they also don't want to be close to spamming. They also see that it is an industry and you need to do it differently. 

And the same thing is with all these ISPs. What we know here in the Netherlands for Gmail and Hotmail, for example, all these kinds of ISPs, they started really appreciating us that we did do it in another way. that they can keep the inboxes also a bit cleaner. So they make more programs, white labeling, and everything. And so we were from day one on these kinds of lists. And that makes our business grow really fast. From 2009, 2010, 2011, really the peak that you could close a lot of deals every day again. 

Mei:

Yeah, it's amazing if you can do that. You can close deals every day. I think that must be very exciting years and moments for you. 

Jacco: 

Definitely, the team was also growing really rapidly. We were over 300 at that time. And then, yeah, that's, that's the, the, the market is changing. That's definitely what we see. It's also email is not that popular anymore, even if it's still used for B2B purposes, it's less for B2C, much less,  for e-commerce. That's, that's definitely. the different league now, but yeah, the same for us. We are in this market already for a long time. So we grow with the market. We develop it with the market. We grow, we build up a large development team there as well. So we're really close to the latest technologies messaging. And everything is what belongs to that. And still we're serving also many companies in China, what's on the code to the West. 

We do the delivery from the email here from service here in Europe, through all the Western e-commerce portals. And what I said before, Hotmail, Gmail, they're all known, but they're not known in China. They have the local services, QQ, 163, 127. That's all local ISPs. It means immediately that the Western ISPs don't have any experience with these services, so we do. for many large Western brands, the email marketing in China. So this is a bridge between China and Europe, and now we say China and the West.

Mei: 

How does it work, Jacco? Because in China, from my personal experience, many people almost never, very seldom, use their emails and they all use WeChat to communicate. How does, yeah, how can you do this email marketing if not many people use email and they all use WeChat? How can you channel it? 

Jacco: 

That's a really good question. Actually, it's the same question that you will ask here in Europe. Do people still read email? Even if it's much higher in Europe than it is in China. The thing is, reaching people on social channels like WeChat, we need to have a one-to-one connection. If you don't have this one-to-one-one connection, you cannot reach the people. So then you have a few other alternatives. 

For example, Sino Weibo, where you can spread around, but still you're in a smaller circle. So you need to spread your word then via KOLs, influencers, who has a lot of followers or via others, via other possibilities. But the possibilities are not that many. So then they need to find a solution. And an email is still a solution. Even if just 20, 30% of the people do read the email, it's still 20, 30%. And the database from these Western brands are large. And if you can make the difference within the subject line, that they pick up your email, it's quite high. So the good thing is you're spammed on SMS. You're called by call centers the whole way if you are in China, on Chinese numbers. 

For WeChat, it's really clean, but it's only in your inner circle. Sina Weibo is a little bit larger, but still in a circle. If most people call us, the messages you receive are from the... places you visit, if it's Douyin or others, if it's Tmall, name it. So you don't have all possibilities to reach your potential client or your client. And for a brand, a luxury brand, now let's name one, TAG Heuer watches. Really well known. If you want to reach potential clients for your watches. Then this person should already follow you. It does that all. For example, in WeChat or another channel, but should follow you. That's quite difficult to reach the audience, to reach your potential clients, reach your clients. That's why email is still heavily used also in China.

Mei: 

Okay, now I get some idea about how it works. And you also do marketing. If you do marketing. Email marketing also look at the analytics and what's the opening rate of the emails. Do you also see a huge difference between the Westerners and Chinese? Is the open rates much lower in China? I'm just curious about how this, what's the behavior of the customers?

Jacco: 

There is no one answer. And that makes it really difficult because if you receive an email from, let's take a luxury brand, LVMH, Gucci, should probably be a name if you want us, Fendi, keep the name. If you have these kinds of brands, and then the operator is still quite high. If you are an unknown brand, then the operator is much lower. because you cannot make the difference within the inbox.

I give quite often the example, we are not responsible for content as a company, even if we help clients to make content more local. But it's if you give a free ride for a Ferrari, everyone would say yes. If you ask 100 euros for a pencil, everyone will say no. So that's more or less the difference also with the subject line and everything that's in the inbox. So you can make the difference with the subject and the content. From the email, the other site we are for response, we do 100% delivery rates.

And that's because our connection is with the local ISPs.

Mei: 

Okay, and if you look at the technology development at the moment, I can imagine the content plays such an important role, but if we look at the AI, in the last few months, AI really exploded. I can imagine also in your area, AI also applied in many, yeah, many... areas of the marketing. And what's the, yeah, landscape, what's the future of marketing and email marketing or marketing technology if we take AI, the development of AI into consideration?

Jacco: 

Again, really nice question to do that here in April in 2023. So it's because this is really a timestamp. If you have about AI, just the upcoming AI tools, because there are everyday new tools. You have a list of tools or tools already what can create their own companies without effort, including using other tools, the AI tools. So it's fascinating what's happened these days. And we all don't know where the Finnish, the good thing is there are actually two things in this one. 

The first one is that I always said China is far ahead. It's about technology. If you look to the in platform, possibly they have is e-commerce. It's amazing. What do you, the forehead, if you look to the whole AI technology, but you have behind Douyin, we know that's tick tock the far ahead of other platforms. That's why all the kids are for hours and they prefer to be one day. in one row to be on TikTok because the whole profiling, what is behind this solution is amazing. What's happened now for less than one and a half month is that the first one that popped up was ChatGPT. 

But if you look now to our company, we use many AI tools to generate the pictures, to generate the content, to generate more or less whole programs for our clients. But they're still all... done on AI tools from outside of China. So we use ChatGPT, for example. So we know that Chinese Baidu is really working hard on it to get us on AI tool. We know that their center is working on this kind of tools and probably thousands of other companies doing as well in China. But we don't have this, we don't use this technology yet. 

So looking to technology, to technology sites, two months ago, I would say we have China, we are far ahead of everything Now I will say with the whole AI technology, the West is picking up and the level of how they picked up the AI, it's really high. And I didn't expect that the West will be the US, for example, I should say the US because of most tools that are coming from the US, that will be so far ahead of China now. That it just popped up and also from totally unknown companies, for me unknown companies probably they were really big already before. but I didn't know them before. And you will expect this from the big companies like Microsoft, from like Google, that it popped up as this kind of technology. But yeah, it's changed. And I was also surprised about it. But I definitely made use of it.

Mei: 

I think for you, for your company and for your future and what you will do in the future, this is also a really fascinating time because this AI technology, what's happening now will really transform. a lot of things and also a lot of job and will have a lot of impact. And because AI can create a lot of contents, pictures, and like you already applied it, but with this fast developments, how do you look at the workspace, if you look at your employees, the people you are hiring, do you also think their job will be at stake?

Jacco: 

Now, what we definitely should re-invent is how we do schooling these days. Because that's where it starts. That's where you're making, where you have the students. That's the way how, and I have, yeah, it's a really big step for how schools need to do the whole way of teaching. 

Because there is the basics. If you look to our company, it's, they're all digital. They're all on digital mindset. If you look to them, it's not so hard to start working with it. We have the designing department, we're creating animated, creating GIFs, pictures, the wall-may, so they pick up the tool quite easily and start working with it, start playing with it. Same thing with Adobe, with the new versions of it, that you just text what you want and the software is changing it already for you instead of finding the right button and doing so. It's just a different way of working. So that's not a big step. 

The way how you generate content, you use for example chat DDP to make the outline, and then you make your own text out of it. So it's a really good base, it works much faster. So that's not a big change. The thing is that it really starts in our schools where the issues are. Because... They still want to learn everything, how to write, how to do things, how to work with Adobe. But that's changed so fast that you really need to reconsider if that's the right way to teach kids, teenagers and even adults. 

Mei: 

Yes, thank you for sharing about education because I do think that we really need to reconsider how we educate the kids for the AI century. And we, yeah, they really need to get other skills. Jacco, if we step back to web power and web power went to China in 2006. And after you after three and three and a few years, you grow really a lot. to 300 employees. 

And how did you build and manage your team in China? I can imagine it can be quite different in Chinese culture to hire a lot of Chinese employees to work on innovative technology. How did you do that?

Jacco: 

I really believe in the rule of freedom. And so the whole management team were really good, good, good qualified people. And if you have really good qualified colleagues, then it's not difficult to manage them if they're sitting next to you or if they're sitting on a distance, or if they are a different nationality and even a totally different world. That doesn't matter anymore. So it's a find the right talents. 

And get them close to you. trust them and something we did as well. If all our money was in a Chinese bank account, so if they want to do something else with the money, they could because I have access, but they all have access as well. So it's a fully trust and then I got also fully trust by them. And if you have both sides, this relation, then it's not difficult. It's just finding the right people. But it's the same here in Europe. 

Mei: 

It's great to hear that you take this approach. And do you also see Chinese people work have different working attitudes, I think, compared to Westerners? What kind of differences do you see between your Chinese employees and your Western employees? Because you also manage the many employees in Netherlands and Europe.

Jacco: 

The big difference was then the first time we rented an office was with these cubes. I hate cubes. So 

I said, okay, let's delete these cubes and let's do it on our way, have big tables where we're working on. So it was already a big step for them, more for them than it was for me. So we were sitting on large tables. The thing also was then that normal Chinese stuff, like to sleep, take a nap. Yeah, it's just after lunch. But being on the big table, it looks a bit strange. So it was already quite difficult to, uh, to take naps if you don't have cubes. 

So there were many steps that, uh, that we did do that makes it much more Western than, uh, than, than it was on the Chinese style. And that was the Chinese style. And the next step we did is making, uh, our office, uh, really fancy. So not gray, uh, and cubes, but. fancy with all colored floor, black walls with our logos everywhere. Yeah, and large tables. So that makes it already totally different again. And that was the beginning, how we tried to get a different culture within the company. 

And secondly, it's the working attitude you're asking for. It's the good thing for China is if you want to have a meeting in the evening, it's possible. If you want to have a meeting the next day, it's always possible, even if it's weekend. It's Saturday, Sunday, it's possible to make appointments. And that's totally different than here in the Netherlands or in Europe. If you want to make an appointment, you need to go two, three weeks ahead, and probably they have the possibilities to do a meeting for an hour. So that's the way of how we do the business over here. It's really slow compared to what's happening in China.

Mei:

If I understand well, I think the speed of China fits better with your speed of doing business, right? Can I draw this conclusion?

Jacco: 

Definitely. The thing is, we were called by Shenzhen Airlines to come up with an offer for services. They talked about it all Friday afternoon at 2 p.m. We decided to start working on it because it was a really nice deal having one of the largest airline companies in China as a client. So we worked Friday on it, Saturday on it. Monday morning we need to present it over there. So we sent everything over on a Friday, Saturday evening to the team in Shenzhen. We flew out on the first plane on Monday morning to Shenzhen. That's the presentation. Before we were in the airport we had already called on a deal. It was a really big deal. We only saw 10 people from us working on this daily basis. So that's how far that can go. 

It will never happen here. I cannot imagine if you go to Lufthansa, KLM or Air France saying, Hey, we will do all your email and SMS marketing. We get this request on Friday and on Monday we are running. So it's, you cannot imagine how fast it can go. 

Mei: 

Yeah, unimaginable. And Jacco, you managed to give your employees freedom in China, you managed them in style, which really gave them the space to develop and to explore and flourish in your company, if I understood from your story. And do you also have some lessons? And did you also learn some lessons during this process? You thought, hmm, I thought differently with my Western mind and oh, this is a wake-up call for me and I need to do it totally differently now.

Jacco: 

If you are flexible, and I was, then of course, there are many things going different than you think. It would go before, but you just go with the flow and say, okay, if you want to do it on this way, we do it on this way, and we find solutions for it as well. The biggest thing we had, because it was really high, a lot of technology, what do you bring from Europe to China? And one of the big things was if it was broken in China, you put the plug off and restart it again. But then all probably all log files are deleted and everything. So you don't know what the problem how the problem did occur, how to pop that. 

And here if you have here in Europe your first check if the what the log file says, okay then you safeguard the log files, you safeguard all data. after having all everything saved you're going to search for a solution. That's not happening in China. In the beginning not. They just power off, power on and hopefully it works again. And that's a big difference. And that's also what you saw especially in the beginning. 

I compare mostly if there is water, if there's water is coming from the ceiling. Here we count on the ceiling and trying to solve it. In China they put on...leader on it and they're standing next to it and they clean up the water all the time instead of repairing it. And that's a big thing. What was China different than here in Europe? And yeah, that was especially in the beginning. 

You really can feel the cultural differences. But also China is so big, the culture in Beijing, you can't compare to Shanghai. And if you've grown It's almost impossible to write a book how it works in Shanghai and all the way around. The country is too big if you just compare distances. We do business in Sweden different than here in Amsterdam or in Madrid for example. And that's also the distance you have within in one country, China. So there is no one thing what we should do. 

The way is that on one moment I really thought, okay, I've done this technology. I have seen everything. Let's go a bit further. Let's go to help other companies because we did quite successfully do our job over there. So we are called by quite a lot of companies can help us as well. This, this marketing in China, you want to go to China. So we did. So we started a second company, Agency China. And, and some of our staff moved over to Agency China, trying to get the business also running and First we did only the marketing, but later on we started also doing e-commerce because companies also asked us, hey, can you help us to sell in China as well? So next to Webpower, what is still running successfully in China was the technology. We do now with Agency China, also now the marketing and e-commerce, and that makes a lot of fun as well.

 So it's some physical things that you start selling in e-commerce stores. And that's also really on the edge of technology because we know here, the TikTok as a company for teenagers, probably, but also, uh, between the 20, while they're playing of watching movies all the time. If you go to do in both by dance, so the mother company, uh, in China, it's a really, you can be, can spread from it's only folks on income is with live streaming and, uh, the wall way, how they, uh, selling products in China is so different than here in Europe is all Even if it's a it's a lot of offline sales, of course as well, but online it's much better than me We do here but the technology we use in Europe The thing also is that everything is within one platform. So if you use Douyin you can watch your products You can buy the product you can pay the products you see the track and trace within the same app. So everything is in much more concentrated.

Mei: 

What did you notice when you first started doing this? videos about this table and then you can go to buy from the shop and directly. So Douyin is almost a central platform search engine, search machine like on Google for the Chinese people at the moment. It's really fascinating to see. 

And what I also noticed the difference about the Chinese Douyin and if we think about TikTok in Western countries, it's mostly young people use it. But in China, Douyin is used by all ages. Even my parents, they are 85 and 80. They watch all kinds of videos on Douyin. That's really the only platform for them to get information and they also learn from other peers, other old people about what they are doing with their lives. So it's really fascinating. This, I... Yeah, this really a huge change for me because three years ago I didn't know, I didn't see this and Douyin was not developing like this. 

And Jacco, you also went to China last month and you just came back. Did you also see something really drastically changed in China?

Jacco: 

Definitely. I was so happy to be back again after three years because I just flew back from COVID and would love to go into January when COVID popped up in China. So I decided that time to stay here, stay at home and don't go. So it was already three years ago that I, my last time was in Shanghai. Yeah, but it's different again. It goes so fast. What I said also about this I lost it as well. It's not possible to install this version if you don't have a Chinese Apple account. So it's a, that's difficult. So I'm lucky one what has also Chinese bank accounts. I can install also the Chinese version, but it's a, it's amazing what you can do with it and how it works and how it is connected with how it is connected with all the platforms and yeah, I actually, I loved it. So it's. But it's the way how they do it. They see something and they start first searching on the end. And that's, yeah, it's a nice way of running e-commerce. 

Mei: 

Yeah. And do you also see other changes in China when you go to and you didn't see your Yeah, they adapt to other style of work, other new things they are using or they are doing surprised you. Are there certain things I can imagine you have a team there, you didn't work face to face with them for three years? It must be also some differences.

Jacco: 

The good thing is I speak more or less every day with them. Sometimes one hour, sometimes two hours a day. So I have every day contact with them, with China. But you never start talking about what's happening on the street because in the office, you're talking about the solutions and what you can do better, how we can adapt new technologies. That's something that's passing by every day. But

I drove from the airport to my friend's house. Then it's about electric cars. I even make some pictures on LinkedIn about it. The brands that you have in China, we don't even know here. If you look to the amount of Chinese electric cars on the street, I thought you were far here in Europe, but they're way further than us. Electric Cars. Brands that I never heard of. So in the weekend I decided to... to do some research and I did go to a lot of these car brands, shops, watching these cars, sitting in these kind of cars. I loved it. 

It's models that hopefully are here in a few years as well. Makes the street even much more nicer because we are all known to see this as Audi's and of course BMW's. But having all these brands next to it, it's much more choice. that will be definitely different on the streets here. And I'm really looking forward to it. And I was amazed about how many electric cars you find already on the streets of Shanghai. And even they have the goal to have over 50% of electric already in the next years. So, and they will definitely make it. It's already almost there, I think. If you go to the parking garages, I think 30, 40% is already electric.

Mei: 

Yeah, yeah, this is really awesome, really a huge difference. I also noticed now I hear to you and hear what your experiences are well and because my niece, she works for NIO and she also drives a NIO car, electric car and electric car. We went on a trip and traveled to very small villages. Even the infrastructure there was ready for this car and she can just change her battery and in such a small place. And yeah, I think it's really amazing to see the developments with EVs in China and many, many brands just like you've mentioned. I really hope that this will just continue and yeah, this is really nice to see. 

And Jacco, if you look back at your journey in China, we always, when we look at the Chinese and Dutch culture and the many companies face a lot of really differences, and but I'm just curious, what are the major differences and the similarities you see between Dutch culture and Chinese culture? 

Jacco: 

I think trading is something we both really love. Building up something, the entrepreneurship, how I see it from my side, because it's also different between Dutch and European people of course. The spirit, achieving something, it's quite similar. If you look to the WhatsApp. the way of education is definitely different. And that the reason is mostly that the kids are from my generation are grown up by their grandparents at Coat School, teaches what the teacher says is the true. The thing is that also you need to be the best student of the class, otherwise you didn't have the possibility to go to university, for example. We don't have this here. So this education way and how people then are in a company, that's totally, that's different. And probably the biggest culture different between China and Europe. 

On the other side is, if I speak about China, my view was mostly from Shanghai. That's where I lived. Of course, I was, we had six offices in China. So I traveled a lot within China. But in the end, my home was Shanghai and not Beijing and not Shenzhen, even if I love these cities. It's different. It's a different culture, different way of how they work. There are a lot of deals in Beijing we did during dinners or during lunches. 

In China, it was just what we do here in Europe, just office time. We have a meeting from 9 till 10 or from 11 till 12. The only big difference is that we're trying to be on time here in Europe. And especially if you go to Germany, of these kind of countries, 10 is 10. In China, because of the travel, it was quite often if you meet, have a meeting at 10, it will be at 11 or something. So that's the big difference because of the traffic. It was really difficult to plan. But yeah, no, there's, Shanghai is really Western. 

Even, that's also one big thing from what I saw a few weeks ago. When I was in China, I was one of the first ones who moved over again. And the thing, you walk on the Bunds, the famous riverside walk with all this neon on all the side. So I walked over it and there are just a few Western. And then I thought, okay, that's really big difference. The big bars like Baruch, Mint, all these bars are closed. Probably they will be reopened again soon. I'm not sure. But they were all closed now. So then you really feel there are not so many Westerns at the moment in China.

Mei: 

Yeah, and yeah, the COVID really changed the landscape, I think, and had such a great impact. And what can we learn from each other, Jacco? 

Jacco: 

Something that we definitely shouldn't learn is the pressure. There is a lot of pressure on everyone to achieve your goals in China. That starts already at schools because of all these after school programs that start also in business. You definitely can make a difference if you're smart and work hard in China. I'm not sure if that should be the standard also here because life is more than just work. Even if you love it, like I do, for me it doesn't feel as if I work, but it's one big journey. 

Definitely, it's not the way to go to the other side. What I do love is if you want to have a meeting, okay, plan a meeting. Not make it too official and plan it in three weeks ahead. Yeah, of course you need to prepare something, but otherwise just do it and go for it. That's the same thing that I would say to everyone who loves. to be an entrepreneur or want to do something in China, just go. Even if it's a bit more difficult than it was. There's all these restrictions. It's quite easy now to get a visa again. So just go and do your thing and do your business.

Mei: 

Yeah, I think this is also what you have done and you have achieved great success there just by doing go there and just to find out how to do business in China. this podcast also with another question. You already gave some great tips in this in your answer to my last question. But do you have some fundamental tips which really helped you to succeed in China that you want to give to other people who want to do business in China?

Jacco: 

China is not a side business. If you're doing your business here in Europe and you're thinking, okay, we're going to do China too, it's no side business. The country is too big, the possibilities are too great. So if you do it, you should go to FULL That means, the best people or yourself make pretty decent money to develop the business successfully.

If you look to the amount of people living in China, the possibility they have, the consumers, what they have to spend, it's huge. If you go, go with full dedication and do it well, and not just as a side business. That's what I want to say. 

Mei: 

Yeah, thank you so much for the great tips and for sharing your journey and your knowledge with the audience. And if people want to get in contact with you, want to connect with you, What's the best way for them to get to know more about your company and you?

Jacco: 

I'm always available for all kinds of questions. So it's just shoot and you will receive an answer from me via LinkedIn, via email, via the websites, of course, can be as well. The most easy one is then taking the agency china.com. If you send an email to holland@agencychina.com or info@agencychina.com, I will read all these kinds of emails that are passing by. Yeah, and of course. LinkedIn, it's always the channel that works.

Mei:

Yes, thank you, Jacco. I will put all of the links of Agency China and your LinkedIn link, all of the information about you. in the YouTube show notes and podcast show notes. And thank you once again for your time and for this great chat. I really enjoyed it. Thank you, Jacco!

Jacco:

It was a pleasure. Thanks a lot.