#16 One Englishman's Journey in China: Traveling, Parenting, Book Writing, and Navigating China's Financial Industry with Ian Mote

Dear listeners, welcome back to Our Cultures & Our World podcast. I hope you had a wonderful summer. In the first episode of this season, I had the pleasure of talking to Ian Mote. Ian hails from London and has been living in China for 15 years now.

In our delightful conversation, we delved into the origins of not one, but two of Ian's books. His writing journey commenced with travel stories capturing the essence of his adventures as he traversed all of China's provinces. 'From Chicken Feet to Crystal Bath – One Englishman’s Travel in China' marked his first book, published in 2015.

Ian's second book, 'Ginger in Her Socks,' takes us on a humorous and personal journey through his life in China, delving into the complexities of parenting influenced by both Western and Chinese cultures.

Ian shared with us the cultural differences he encountered in parenting in China, emphasizing the significance of Ayis, the term for Chinese nannies, and Chinese family members in caregiving, as well as the challenges posed by the Chinese education system. We also discussed the therapeutic benefits of writing and the value of vulnerability in storytelling.

Later in the episode, we dived into Ian's experiences as a senior finance professional in China, exploring how he navigated cultural differences in his international career. He shared insights into the dynamic changes in China's financial landscape, the importance of building strong teams, and the significance of cultural understanding and interaction when conducting business in China.

It was a lot of fun talking to Ian, and I learned a great deal from him. I hope you will derive immense value from this conversation. Don't forget to check out Ian's books, 'From Chicken Feet to Crystal Bath – One Englishman’s Travel in China' and 'Ginger in Her Socks – One Englishman’s Parenting in China.' They are available on Amazon, and you can find the titles and links in the podcast show notes.

Website Ian Mote: https://ianmote.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianmote/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ianmote/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/fromchickenfeettocrystalbaths

Twitter: https://twitter.com/mmmChickenFeet

Books from Ian:
1. From Chicken Feet to Crystal Baths: An Englishman's Travels Throughout China
https://www.amazon.nl/Chicken-Feet-Crystal-Baths-Englishmans/dp/1504903943/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_nl_NL=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=UZC7RTN06M6C&keywords=From+chicken+feet+to+crystal+bath+Ian+mote&qid=1693671738&sprefix=from+chicken+feet+to+crystal+bath+ian+mote%2Caps%2C68&sr=8-1
2. Ginger in Her Socks: One Englishman’s Parenting in China (English Edition)
https://www.amazon.nl/Ginger-Her-Socks-Englishmans-Parenting-ebook/dp/B0BGKRVFJ9/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1693671607&sr=8-2

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For interesting tips from my podcast guests about how to do business in China: https://iibboo.com/china-tips/  

Transcript

Mei (00:30 – 00:36)

Welcome to my podcast in first, could you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

Ian Mote (00:36 – 01:00)

Yeah, hi, thanks for having me on today. So my name is Ian Mote. I'm from the UK, from London originally. But I've spent the last 21 years living in Asia. I spent some time in Hong Kong, spent some time in Dubai, but I spent the last 15 years living here in China, in Shanghai. So this is very much my home now, and I'm looking forward to, you know, talking a little bit about it today.

Mei (01:00 – 01:42)

Ian, you have lived for 15 years in China. You worked as a finance professional in China. But next to your professional career, you also have written two books. And the first book called From Chicken Feet to Christ's Wealth, One Engagement's Trouble in China. You published this book in 2015. And five years after you wrote another book, Ginger in Her Socks, very interesting name. We will get into it later on. The subtitle is One Englishman’s Parenting China. So what inspired you to write these two books?

Ian Mote (01:42 – 03:57)

I mean, I think the writing comes from it's a very internal thing. It's just, I used to write travel stories when I first came out here and tell people what I've been doing. And people seem to like them and enjoyed some of the scrapes and the problems I found myself in. So I sort of expanded them over time. And it was a bit of a, it was a bit of a bucket list item or something I've always wanted to do is try and expand that and see if I could write a book. So when I had the idea for the first one, it was sparked by the fact that I'd been to, I think, 23 out of 31 provinces in China at that time. So I realized I could maybe try and target going to every province in China. And that would be the hook then for writing a book about it and telling the stories of all the places I've been to. 

So once I got that, it's something that really sort of burns within you then. I had that idea and I was like, yes, it's something I want to do. It wasn't a trivial hobby, it wasn't a work in any way, it was something that once I had that idea, it just felt a very natural thing to do. So I wrote that book. I was very happy with the way it came out. 

And then having enjoyed the process and still wanting to continue writing, I thought over the next couple of years, what else can I talk about? Or what's my experience now? You know, the first book was about my life in China, traveling a lot and learning about the country. And now I've been here a bit longer. They don't have quite so many surprising incidents or quite so many events in that format. So I was looking to do something else, but the biggest change in my life or the biggest influence in my life over that time was that I became a father at the end of 2016. So then it became a story about that. 

And maybe being a parent on its own isn't enough to tell, but the issue then was that I'm obviously. from the UK but living in China, my wife's Chinese. And so it was raising a child with some Western influences and some Chinese influences and some conflicts and some benefits that had. And I found that was pretty fertile ground in terms of now to tell more stories and finding more opportunities to write. So the second one was driven from that.

Mei (03:57 – 04:26)

We will get into your second book in a minute, but about your first book, it's quite a thick book, and you have a very busy job, you're travelling around. How was the writing process to put all of your words on the pages? 

Ian Mote (04:26 – 05:30)

It wasn't too bad. I mean, it took probably a couple of years to write it all down. The way I was doing it really then was just every time something happened or every time I had a story to tell, I'd try and sit down and write that story. And I wrote quite a lot. I used to write quite a lot on a Sunday afternoon, sitting at home. But also then I was traveling a lot and spending a lot of time on flights, traveling to different Chinese cities. So I found so you could get half an hour and hours writing down on a plane when you couldn't really do any work anyway. So that became quite a good thing. And that was just long enough to write one story or one section. And then at the end, once I put a lot of these down, the process then was about trying to meld them all together, put it into a more coherent narrative, and find out which bits worked, which bits didn't need to be or need to be extended. But as I said in the first question, this was something of a labor of love for me. So it never really felt like a problem. That became my hobby. It's something I have spare time. I'll go and write down for 10 minutes. I had a list of all the bits I wanted to cover. So anytime I had spare time, I'd sit and write one more, write one more till I got through the list.

Mei (05:31 – 05:54)

Great to hear how you manage this writing process. Because it's a travel story, I think also it can be also enjoyable to go back to relive the memories and to travel again in your mind and to write it. Did you experience such kind of reliving the experiences?

Ian Mote (05:54 – 06:41)

A little bit, yes. I mean, every so often I have, I go look back, maybe to prepare for an interview like today or to, I've done a couple of talks over the years, so I go back and revise the stories. It's always nice to look back and to remember some of the places and some of the stories. And then I think that applies particularly to the second one, because it's, it's my memories of bringing up my daughter and it, that's a good, it's a good record for me to have all the things we did, particularly when she was young and some of the stories and events that happened around that. So I think the second one in particular is good for that because it's almost like a full record of the first few years of her life, which is quite a valuable thing to have, I think.

Mei (06:41 – 07:30)

Yeah, it's I can I can really imagine because I read this book. It’s very interesting, also very personal, and because it's really about your personal life, your life with your wife, with your daughter, and all of the Ayis and the family members in your house. And you also, you have written it with a lot of humor. I must say, I laughed a lot along the way, even in the most stressful moments, and you put some humorous lines between the story. So, I was living, I was feeling the stress, but I need to laugh for a moment. And it's really well done. It's really an interesting story. But Ian, how did you come up with the title Ginger in Her Socks?

Ian Mote (07:30 - 09:07)

The title for the second one, the ginger in her socks is, well, I mean, the titles for both, I was trying to look at the different extremes about things that happen in China or situations that I wasn't expecting. And the second one was, um, because one of our Ayis when our daughter, Kira got sick, that was her, uh, traditional Chinese remedy. So she put ginger in her, in Kira's socks as a way to get rid of a cold that she had.

And I look this up and I understand that ginger is quite effective as a remedy. If it's ingested into the body, it's quite, it's got quite good anti-toxin properties, but that's usually in a soup or in a drink or eating it. But I've never quite worked out how putting it in a socks was supposed to get it into our body more effectively than drinking in a soup. So I was trying to think of what were the strange situations I'd seen, that would work for a title. And that was the one that came up as much as anything else. So yeah, that was why I went for that one in the end.

Mei 

Yeah, did the ginger really help in the end?

Ian Mote 

I mean she got better in the end. I don't know if it was any quicker because of the ginger I wouldn't put any money on it. So you never know

Mei 

So, yeah, you know, you never know the magical power of ginger in the socks.

Ian Mote 

Could be, yes. But I've looked up online, I've never found, I did check, I've not managed to find anybody else who swears this is a good thing. So it was only our old Ayi who thought it. So I'm not expecting that it was particularly effective.

Mei (09:07 – 10:38)

Yeah. Yeah. But it's really intriguing title. It's very nice. And I was immediately intrigued about the title when I read it. And in this book, you have written, yeah, your life story with Kira, with Heidi, your wife. And it's also a kind of journey, I felt that I traveled with you to all kinds of places and the whole journey of getting Kira and also to build this family life, especially after the birth of Kira, you got a lot of support from your mother-in-law and from two Ayis, nanny living in your house. So you were the only man in the house, you almost couldn't get the chance to get close to Kira because everybody really wanted to take good care of her. And they, because you are a man, you are not well trained father yet. So they didn't really trust you to let you take care of Kira.

How was this process? Because as an Englishman, if you think about living in the UK, it's really unthinkable. And how did you survive as an Englishman in the first year?

Ian Mote (10:38 – 13:14)

Yeah, I mean, I think this was an interesting cultural difference that I hadn't really expected. But yeah, I mean, I mean, getting used to having an eye, I think maybe the people who are outside of China, they wouldn't know. So here you can hire an Ayi, which is a nanny. And she was with us at least six days a week and staying overnight as well. So you have a lot of extra help when the when your baby is young, which is great.

I took that originally to think, well, maybe she can help train me and show me what to do and teach me what I need to be doing to look after her. Whereas I think a lot of the Ayis come in saying, well, this is my job. I've been hired to look after this baby. So I'm going to come after this baby and you can go and sit over there and I'll call you when I need you. And then it's obviously when the baby's very young, she's very close to her mother as well. And then we had my mother-in-law staying with us at the same time. So early on, I was like, third or fourth in line to look after us sometimes. So, yeah, I had to fight my way in, or elbow my way in sometimes to get to the car after because I don't know, this is a particularly common thing here or maybe just the way it worked out in our house. But if I could have sat on the edges and not done very much and no one would have seemed to have been particularly bothered. 

Whereas, yeah, I know a lot of Western couples with babies or even here and their attitude is very different. The father is very much expected to take responsibility and be in there early. So, but I did get involved in the end. And I think the way to to work it a lot of the time was to ask the Ayi or to ask my mother-in-law to say, can you train me? Can you show me what to do? So they're still involved and they're still giving out their wisdom. But at the same time, they teach me what to do. And then it gives them a bit more comfort and a bit more safety net then. So I build up slowly from the start. And then as time went on, they got more and more comfortable. And then I got more and more used to it. So it was less and less of an issue.

But then it was quite nervous. I remember the first time I was took care of it on my own. And it was like, you're looking for danger on every corner or you're worried that anything that could go wrong. But it was fine. We didn't have any issues. So it was good. And I think it was important to build a strong relationship early. And I think I'd like to think I did that. So I think that stood me in good stead for the future and even to where we are now.

Mei (13:14 – 14:28)

Certainly! And I read in your book how you really engaged with Kira and although you are the fourth person in the line, you still tried to play a very important role in her life and go to all kinds of playgrounds and go to school and all kinds of places sometimes as the only father around and to get really involved in Kira's life. I think that's really very important for all of the daughters to have engaging father to be really a very important part of their lives. 

Ian, throughout your parenting journey in China, you also navigated the processes of finding the kindergartens and schools for your daughter. And you also describe that in your book. And it's so different.

Can you share with us the major differences that you observed between Chinese education and the education system you experienced in UK?

Ian Mote (14:28 – 16:02 )

Um, I can't know though. It was a long time ago when, uh, when I was at school there. So I think it's probably changed a lot. It was, it was interesting here that, uh, I mean, I suppose one of the big difference is that a lot of the educational establishment, even kindergartens are very much divided as international or local. So, um, you know, we didn't qualify for the local kindergarten. So we had to go to an international one. And then at that time, there was still a quite a large expat population in Shanghai. So. it was quite competitive. It was quite a strange situation with Kira being two, two and a half, having to go and do interviews for kindergarteners to see if she was up to speed to get in or see if we were up to speed to get in. And some of them were very competitive. Now, I'm sure that does happen in the West as well, but maybe not quite to the same extent, I would say. So that was quite an interesting one early on. 

But then I guess the other one you learn early, which is a good one is that all the kids go into a bilingual. So all the classes she was doing from when she we we started when she was only 18 months old. But you know, she's going to bilingual classes right from the start. All the other kids there are most other kids there were from Chinese families. You know, they were still looking for the same of bilingual education. And it was important that we start her off as soon as we could with that to make sure she got that grounding in her languages. So I think in that respect it played very well. And I think that she did benefit from that.

Mei (16:02 – 16:30)

I think just like you said, there are always pros and cons in both of the education system. And what was the most rewarding aspect of your writing process for you in to write these two books? And did this process also provide you with a new insights and reflections on your own experiences in China?

Ian Mote (16:30 – 18:57)

I think so, particularly on the second one, because it's about the it's about our life, having a child and not to give too much away. But that wasn't an easy process. A lot of the early stuff of the book is just what we had to go through to have Kira. You know, in the end, we were very lucky and very grateful for that, but it wasn't always a foregone conclusion that was going to happen. So it's, you mentioned earlier about going back and rereading some of it. It's like I have it's quite a good memory then of just what we had to go through. And then there's no complacency then about having children or being lucky. Like it reminds me of how lucky we are. 

And then I think it was quite it was quite therapeutic for me. Like, you know, having a child is one of the most emotionally roller coaster things you're probably ever going to face in your life. And as you know, then later on, we had some other bad news come in and other things happen later. And one of the ways for me to deal with that was to write it down and to talk through and then this is what we had to do. And this is what I felt. And I could tell my side of it because there was so much stuff going on at times that we just had to get through it in any way we could, it was just, let's make it to the end of this and get through it. And then we can take stock and assess it later. And I think my way of assessing it, and taking stock was to write it down and put my side of the story across. And so I can look back now and say, yeah, that's what, uh, that's all we had to go through and that's what I felt. 

And it was, um, I did find it therapeutic to do that. And I was, it was one of the reasons that drove me in a couple of you have asked me about the books is like the second one in particular is much more personal and honest. And it's like, people sort of look at it's like, did you, did you really want to admit that? Do you really want to say that and put that out there in public? And it wasn't an easy decision. I did have some nerves about it. And I did stop and think a couple of times about what I was doing and how much I wanted to open up. But in the end, I wanted to tell that story. And I want it because you know, I wanted to get out there what I've been through what those experiences were. So I think it was it was a valid, valuable sorry, a valuable thing to do to tell those stories in the end. So I was I was pleased that I did. But it wasn't Yeah, it wasn't an easy decision. But I'm glad I went with it.

Mei (18:57 – 20:11)

Certainly, Ian! I read this book and you really also shared your vulnerability in all kinds of phases. Your story really brought, take people on this inner journey of yourself. and really connect with the reader. And at least I felt that. And I think it's so beautiful to read all of those personal stories. And also, you as an Englishman living in China, went through all of those struggles and with your family there, with your Chinese families. 

I can imagine, Ian, you must have also struggled to decide what I should put in and what I should not, because how vulnerable I can be, but I think it's beautiful to share your vulnerability with the readers, with people. 

Thank you for writing this beautiful book. I really highly recommend people to go to read it. Ginger in Her Socks, a beautiful book. And people can buy it on Amazon?

Ian Mote 

Yeah, yeah, it's on all the main Amazon sites. Yeah.

Mei (20:13 – 20:56)

Great! So I will put the name of the book and also the Amazon link in the podcast show notes. So if people are interested, they can go to get this book. 

If we circle back to your professional life, Ian, as a senior finance professional, you have lived in China since the end of 2008. And you have extensive financial and banking experiences in Europe and in Middle East and in China. How have you navigated the cultural differences in all of these regions and adapted your approach to your business?

Ian Mote (20:56 – 23:39 )

I mean, I think the important thing when I came here was to be open minded and to be curious. And that's not you can't really come with a preset mind about I'm going to do it this way, I'm going to do it that way. So I had to be quite flexible and adaptable and get used to a very different way of life. I mean, one good example of this was when I was in Dubai, I ran a team of six or seven people, I think, both which one guy was from India, one guy was from Pakistan. One lady was from Iran, one guy was from Brazil, and one lady was a local Emirati. And with the best one in the world, they never stopped talking, never stopped talking. So all day, every day, it was great from a business perspective, I always knew everything that was going on. And they would tell me everything. The hardest part of the job there was just sometimes just to keep quiet and let them talk at me rather than, because I wanted to go and do something else or not be bothered by it, you have the patience to listen. But anyway, so I had that experience. 

And when I came here, I was heading up a team of 25, I think, when I got here. So I thought, wow, big team is like an interesting challenge on the people side. And then first day I came in and I met everybody and introduced myself and then I sat down at my desk. Complete silence, complete silence. Everyone had said hello to me and that was it. Then they just got on doing what they were doing. And no one spoke to me for about the first week. And it was quite a shock then to realize that maybe it's the thing in China about having the big boss and you don't, people weren't used to interacting so much. It's like I had to go and try and break down a few barriers and get people used to having me there. And it's like, no, it's like, you can tell me what's going on. I want to know what's going on. You need to talk to me a bit more. So I had to really sort of push to build up those relationships with people and get them comfortable with interacting with me on a much more regular basis. So that was my first example of it right early on. So if I'd gone in expecting the same thing, I'd have been disappointed. 

So I think you have to be, yeah, you have to be adaptable and flexible. And I make a lot of mistakes along the way. But one thing I was trying to do is look at mistakes and see what can I learn from this and what can I, I always tell my team that I don't mind if you make a mistake, but I get annoyed if you make the same mistake twice. So find out what works, find out what doesn't work and then adapt and learn from that. So that's always been my way of trying to work. And that's, you know, that I had to use that a lot. And, you know, as I said, I probably made quite a few mistakes along the way, but I learned a lot from those. So I came out better for it at the end.

Mei (23:39 – 23:55)

So you also encourage your team just to dare to make mistakes and to take decisions. Are those the main tactics you used to overcome this first challenge when you were there?

Ian Mote (23:55 – 25:30)

I mean, I think also it was, I think once the team got to learn that I wasn't going to start screaming and shouting, if I was upset, I wasn't like going to rant and rave about things going wrong, but it was a genuine desire to fix problems and to find solutions. And I think once they know there wasn't a recrimination, I wasn't going to start jumping up and down on people then that gave them some confidence. 

And I think one thing that's always important to me wherever I've been is to foster a very strong team spirit. I think it comes from the sports. I mean, having played sport all my life, I'm very strong on teamwork. And a lot of big companies or corporate entities will always talk about teamwork and say it's important. But I think a lot of people don't really understand what that means or how it works or what they need to do to make it work. But I like to know something I do take very seriously. 

And so, I was quite lucky as well. The team I had when I first came here was quite young. It wasn't like I had a lot of very experienced people who'd seen it all before. I had a quite new and young team and that helped I could try and set the culture a bit easier. So I really pushed the idea of teamwork and everyone working together as a unit and we all lived and died on each other's successes as a unit. And I think once people bought into that, they really liked that. So that helps drive some of the some of the loyalty and also that gives people confidence then to interact more. So I think those things help contribute.

Mei (25:30– 25:45)

Yeah, very interesting. and this team spirit and to build team spirit. Ian, could you please also share your karaoke story? Because that also contributed, I think, a lot.

Ian Mote (25:45 – 28:09)

Well, yeah, I mean, talk about curiosity and adaptability. So, you know, when I arrived, I'd never done karaoke before I got here. And I'd always try to avoid it. I must think it is terrible. So it was always something I stayed clear of. And then when I when I arrived, so I have two teams in Shanghai and Beijing. So here in Shanghai, first few days in the second week, I got to Beijing, I said, Oh, we'll go out for dinner tonight. So great. Okay, so go out for dinner. Whole team. And then it's, oh, let's go karaoke afterwards. I was like, oh, really? Are you sure? It's like, yeah, yeah, we've got to go, we've got to go. 

So they go, and then a couple of people start singing and they all start looking at me. And I realized that I can't get out of this. It's, I'm going to have to do it. So I thought I'd choose, I think I chose Yesterday by the Beatles because it's quite simple. And it's only about a minute and a half long. So it's the shortest song I could think of. So I sang it, not very well, but I sang it. And then at the end of the song, again, there wasn't much reaction. It was just like, right, who's on next? And I realized that they genuinely didn't care that my singing was terrible. They just wanted me to participate. Once I participated, it was fine. It was on to the next person. So that was quite a liberating experience then, because I realized that not really, no one was listening. 

So after that, well, when I came back, then obviously Shanghai had heard straight away from Beijing, oh, he's... been karaoke so we've got to take them as well. So I had to do the whole thing again in Shanghai a few days later. I found I got used to it then. So I mean, my singing hasn't improved, but I've got a couple of songs that I do when I have to and I could do one or two Chinese songs. And in a way that's a distraction then because people hear me sing the Chinese song and forget that I'm singing badly. Just it's the novelty of hearing me do it. So, and then it becomes quite social and you get into it and it's quite fun. So I've sort of relaxed a bit on that over the years, I guess.

Mei (27:45 – 28:02)

Ian, I think, can we also give people this singing karaoke, building your repertoire as one of the tips to break the ice and to just engage with the team, build this team spirit, because it can really help? 

Ian Mote (28:02 – 28:27)

Well, I mean, I think it. Why I think in that case in particular, it would have been genuinely more harmful for me not to sing and to sing. You know it would have. It would have upset a lot of people and damage that team spirit. I was trying to build so. Alright, however apprehensive you might be about it, then you know there is a downside if you don't do it as well, so I I was much better off by doing what I did, I think.

Mei (28:27 – 29:16)

Yeah, I think in Chinese culture you build relationships with each other in social occasions and most sometimes not really on business occasions. You just go out to chit chat and to engage with each other, then you get to know each other. So these social occasions are also very important for building your relationships in China for business. 

If we look at your financial background, you worked in the finance area already for many years in China. Do you also see some key trends or changes in the industry in the last few years in this field?

Ian Mote (29:16 – 32:29)

Well, it's changed a lot. So when I was first living in Hong Kong, I started coming to China. So 2002 2003, the market was just starting to open up and people just start to business here. And no one was quite sure what it was going to be or what's going to look like, but we could see that it's something was going to happen. And then 2004, five, six, it just went crazy. And all the Western companies coming in with we're doing as much business as they can possibly handle. And the bank I was in was had two people to a desk because they couldn't get office space fast enough for the speed they were growing. For that decade, people experienced huge growth and that carried on. It survived the financial crisis in 2008. China came through pretty much unscathed. And then in the last decade, the market has matured a lot. 

So whereas before, the growth was just because of the size of the market and new products are coming in. Now it's a lot more like Western markets in that you have to fight and scrape for every piece of business and every share. You can't just turn up and expect to do well straight away. It's hugely more sophisticated and demanding and it's a lot harder. It's a lot harder to do business in any industry now, but finance as much. 

So you have to have a really solid strategy, idea, and clear marketing plan about who you want to be and why and how you differentiate yourselves. And I think a lot of Western companies generally, not just banking, but in all industries have struggled to do that. And there was a feeling for a while that because it's such a big market, you just got to turn up here and you'll make some money. And that doesn't work anymore. So it's really what's your competitive advantage? How are you going to do things better than a local company? 

Because in 2002, 2003, when I started, not many people had the experience that I had. And that's why I got was doing business here. And then why I got brought over in 2008, because no one had the experience to do that job, but that's not true now. Now everyone's got that extra 20 years of experience and. You're competing people with whose. Abilities and talents and experience is the same. So what are you going to do differently? Well, how are you going to differentiate yourself? So it's much more competitive now. 

And, you know, the Chinese economy doesn't grow at the same speed that it used to. The business is harder, so that you have to really look for those opportunities where you can find them, I think. The good thing here, compared to a lot of Western markets, I find is it still changes very quickly. So opportunities in China come and go very fast. So you have to be very agile I would say. 

That surprised me when I first arrived, although I'm a bit used to it now, is that how fast the market can change, how fast the economy can change, how much influence the government can have to take it in a different direction for whatever reason. So you have to be really nimble and be ready to make that move. But that also then gives opportunities if you're in the right place at the right time and you can react fast enough, then you can find the business that you wanna do.

Mei (32:29 – 32:47)

If you look at the developments in China, if we look at the technological development, do you also see certain innovations in the financial industry in China which are very different compared to Western countries or other countries?

Ian Mote (32:47 – 35:23)

The biggest one, that is just the rise of the cashless systems and how everybody pays everything on WeChat and Alipay. Now, even to the point that you see a beggar in the streets, they'll have a WeChat code on a card around their neck for pain. I mean, you could go a year without touching cash or a credit card here now. No, I know in the West as well, they're starting to go much more that way, but not to the level here. And what's interesting I've seen just this last month is that now all the COVID situation is finished. We're starting to see much more tourists or business people coming back into China. Now people are starting to travel in. And twice in the last month, I've had people come in from Hong Kong and they're like, what do I do? How do I get around? How am I going to live? I don't have WeChat or I don't have a credit card attached to it.

I can't pay for anything. What? You know, it's am I in trouble when I come to China? No, there are still ways and means and it's not completely gone. But for most for people living here every day, it's just yeah, completely digital system. And I think that I mean, we saw that as well in the COVID situation last year, not just during the lockdown, but how much that aspect of life was connected to your phone and you know, scan this to come in here or you have the green code to do your test every second day. And you need a green code to get in and a green code to come here. And then if you go to another province, you have to re-signup with a different app for them. And everything was completely digitized. And your phone was your life. 

And it's like I used to joke, my wife is like saying the biggest risk we have during lockdown is if you drop your phone over your balcony, because you can't get you can't get another one because the shops are closed, but you can't go out because you haven't got the code. And you know, your phone, I mean, I know everyone here is so reliant on phones already or around the world is relying on phones already. But there was a point like it was even more extreme. It's like you, you cannot leave your house if you don't have a working phone. That was this last year and you cannot pay for anything if you do not have a working phone. So that's. I mean, you can argue whether that's a good thing or that's maybe that's gone a bit too far, but that's the extreme I think it's moved to over the last few years. So that's that's definitely noticeable. I would say.

Mei (35:23 – 35:48)

This digital cashless life is very convenient, makes everything very, very fast. And but at the same time, we also create a lot of dependency on technology, on internet. 

And Ian, if we look at our cultural differences and our strengths. How, what can we learn from each other? 

Ian Mote (35:48 – 38:08)

I mean, I think my much of my learning about China and Chinese people has come from being here and interacting on a daily basis. And I think it's very difficult to understand China without spending time here and getting to know people. And it worries me that over the last few years, relations between the Western China taken quite a serious downturn. Maybe, it's worse last year, I think things have picked up a little bit now, but both sides are sort of standing across from each other and no one's really interacting with each other. And I think the interaction is where you find common ground and understanding. And I think standing on a more aggressive basis and not interacting isn't going to work. That strategy is going to only cause more problems and more conflict, I think. 

So, you know, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of business is done across the dining table or it's not done across a boardroom table. So coming here, interacting with people, seeing how they live, understanding what their drivers are, and then being able to react to that, I think is, is very important. The, the, if you try and do it from a distance, it doesn't work. You have to come and interact. And I think that applies both ways. I mean, China, you know, the doors have been shut for the last three years. People couldn't come in. So now it's starting to change, people coming in again. And I think, I think that should be encouraged. I think the more people that come in and they interact with people from overseas, the better it will be. I don't see a big appetite for that at the moment, unfortunately, and I hope that will change in the future. I hope that will be encouraged more because a lot of foreigners who used to live in China have left, tourists who used to come, haven't come recently, and it will take some time for that to build up again. And with anybody, if you leave them on their own and isolate them, then that relationship is gonna suffer. So I'd like to see much more interaction and much more willingness here for people to come in and interact and for China to learn from people from overseas as much as the other way around.

Mei (38:08 – 38:25 )

Thank you for sharing this! Really very important aspect of learning from each other and engage with each other. And Ian, do you also have some practical tips for the people who want to do business in China?

Ian Mote (38:55 – 39:29)

I mean, I think it's that you have to come and get on the ground here. You have to have a local team you have to work out what your Product differential is and how are you gonna stand out from the crowd because it's a huge crowd. So what idea you have you got that no one else has had and how are you gonna show people that you have that idea or that product.

And I think you need people on the ground here to make sure that you can communicate that if you have once you have that product idea, how do you need people there who can talk with people who understand how to market an idea or a brand in China or how to use Chinese social media, which of course is completely different to social media outside of China. The idea or the product can come from anywhere, but you need a team on the ground to be doing that, and to do business in a Chinese way. As we said, like to do your deals across the dinner table or in the karaoke bar with the people you wanna deal with. That's the only way it's gonna work.

Mei (39:29 – 39:49 )

Thank you very much for these tips. Ian, really thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me today. And before we wrap up, if there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners and anything else I didn't ask but you want to share?

Ian Mote (39:49 – 41:25)

I've been here a long time and it feels like a second home to me now. So it was great this year that I could finally go back to the UK on holiday. I went on holiday in January and that was great because I hadn't been home in three or four years. And it's a worry that, you know, part of being an expat living abroad, I'm sure it's something you feel as well, it's predicated on the fact that you can travel easily and move around quickly and  conveniently, I could go home every year or I could go and travel here or travel there. And having a couple of years where that wasn't possible was quite tough. And I'm glad it's come back now. I'm very grateful to see it come back and I hope we can hang on to it. So hopefully I'll be out and about a bit more and getting into more troubles and more stories.

I think the only downside to finishing the second book was I've used up all my stories. Now people ask me, you're going to write a third one. It's like, well, all I do is I write about the life that I have and the experiences I've had. I'm not, I can't write fiction. I, this is the only thing I can write. So if I have more stories to tell, then I'd happily tell them, but I've used them up now. So I've, hopefully my ambition now for the next few years is to get out and have more stories and more experiences. That I can think about doing something else in future because I've got stories to tell. So China's being amazing experience for me in providing those opportunities and those experiences far more than probably anywhere else I can imagine. So I just hope that continues and I can keep having those experiences. 

Mei (41:25 – 42:45)

If I listen to you, that would be you are looking for new material and new hooks for your third book. I think someday the third book will come and if you get the chance to create more stories and adventures, we will wait for your third book, I think.

Ian Mote 

Thank you. Well, we'll see. It won't come soon, but that's in the long run. You never know. So we'll see.

Mei 

Yeah, great. And how can people find you online and connect with you Ian?

Ian Mote 

I'm on all social media. So professionally, I'm on LinkedIn. Personally, I'm on Facebook and on Twitter, at Ian in Shanghai, and I'm on Instagram as well as Ian Mote. So it's quite an advantage having a slightly unusual surname. So if you search Mote, you'll usually find me. There's not many of us around.

Mei 

Great. I will put all of your contact details and also the link for your books in the podcast show notes and YouTube show notes. And really, I want to thank you for your time and for sharing your stories in China. And I really enjoyed this conversation.

Ian Mote 

Great. Thank you, Mei. Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it. So thanks a lot.
Mei 

Thank you. Thank you very much, Ian!