# 23: Dragon Tactics: Insights from a 30-Year China Business Journey with Aldo Spaanjaars

In this episode, Aldo Spaanjaars shares profound insights gained from his 30-year journey through the dynamic and competitive Chinese market, where he held leadership roles at major brands like Adidas and Lacoste. Aldo breaks down the core principles from his co-authored book, "Dragon Tactics: How Chinese Entrepreneurs Thrive in Uncertainty," with Sandrine Zerbib, the former CEO of Adidas Greater China. This insightful book offers a clear guide for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of the Chinese market.

Highlights:

🌱 Aldo’s Early Adventures: Learn about Aldo’s initial move to China right after his graduation, his challenges, and the early lessons that shaped his approach to business in China.

🌱 Co-authoring Dragon Tactics: Delve into the collaborative writing process and the motivation behind the book, aimed at decoding the success formulas in the hyper-competitive Chinese market and providing strategies to thrive in China.

🌱 Wolf Culture and Competitive Edge: Aldo explains how Chinese companies embody the 'wolf culture,' characterized by aggressive growth tactics, relentless pursuit of market opportunities, and a high tolerance for risk. This culture propels companies to rapidly adapt and innovate, keeping them ahead in a hyper-competitive environment.

🌱 The Importance of Agility and Adaptation: Aldo exemplifies how Chinese companies excel by perpetually evolving their strategies to meet changing market demands, and why businesses must stay flexible and responsive to survive in the fast-paced Chinese market.

Why Listen/Watch? This discussion is a must-watch for those looking to break into or expand their understanding of the Chinese market. Aldo’s insights provide a practical framework for leveraging 'Dragon Tactics' to achieve business success. Ideal for entrepreneurs, business professionals, and anyone interested in the dynamics of international business strategy.

Please connect with Aldo via:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aldospaanjaars/

Website: https://www.dragontactics.com/ 

You can purchase Dragon Tactics on: 

https://www.bispublishers.com/dragon-tactics.html 

https://www.amazon.nl/-/en/Aldo-Spaanjaars/dp/9063696388 

https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/dragon-tactics/9300000070407548/

You can watch or listen to the podcast on: 

🌱 YouTube: https://youtu.be/RXm1zJRhrMI

🌱Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/23MDLHw0ZIZEo05AsNhwjq 

🌱Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/our-cultures-our-world/id1650591999 

Remember to Subscribe and Share! Join us for more insightful conversations on international business. For more information about Our Cultures & Our World Podcast: https://iibboo.com/podcast/.

Transcript

Mei (00:00 – 00:21)

Welcome to my podcast. Aldo, thanks for being here with us and to have a chat about your book, your experiences in China, and to share your golden nuggets with our listeners. And before we start, Aldo, could you please give a brief introduction about yourself for our listeners?

Aldo Spaanjaars (00:21 – 2:31)

Sure, Mei. Good morning. Thank you very much to have me on your podcast. I very much enjoy doing these things, especially when it comes to talking about the book. So great to be here. 

I am a Dutchman, but I spent more time abroad than I lived in the Netherlands. When I graduated in 91, I left in 92 for China. And I spent 30 years after that abroad. And actually since end of 2020, I am back in the Netherlands running my own consultancy firm. My time in China was very broad. I've worked for companies like Adidas and Lacoste as CEO and COO, but I've also worked for Chinese companies, Fosun and An Ta. So I have a very balanced understanding of what it takes to be successful in China, for foreign and but also for Chinese businesses. 

I'm also a member of the VNC, the Dutch China Association. And as I said, I wrote a book, as you mentioned, I wrote a book called Dragon Tactics, how Chinese entrepreneurs thrive in uncertainty. To be clear, I did not write this book by myself on my own. I wrote this together with a dear friend, Sandrine Zerbib, who like me spent a long time in China is now also back in Europe and works for a company called Baozun. So it's co-written book, part covering our experiences in China and part doing a lot of research about what it takes to be successful in China. 

So I am what they call a Lao Zhongguotong. As we said in the intro, I'm maybe more Chinese than you are, and you maybe more Dutch than I am. But here I am, a Dutchman back in my own country and trying to continue to build bridges between China and the Netherlands, for which also why I joined the board of the VNC.

Mei (02:31 – 3:38 )

First of all, I really want to thank you for writing Dragon Tactics with Sandrina. And it's such a brilliant book and really well written. And all of the tactics and all of the things you explained resonate so much with my own experiences of working between different countries and regions, bridging the collaboration and supporting the collaboration between Netherlands and China. So I really love to reading your book. Thank you very much for that. And I would like to ask some questions and to explore the book together with you. I think our listeners can get really a lot of advice and tips for doing business in China during this process. Before I start that, I would like to ask you about your co -writing journey with Sandrina. And because you work together at Adidas Greater China, you were colleagues How was it all started?

Aldo Spaanjaars (03:38 – 06:58)

Yes, we were co -workers. In fact, Sandrine hired me. That is how our relationship started. I had actually come to China very early. I moved to China in 1992, as I said earlier. I graduated in 1991. It was difficult to find a job. So I decided to go to Hong Kong and look for a job there. Quickly after Hong Kong, I ended up in Beijing starting an advertising agency.

And then I very early on learned that things in China had to be done differently. Clients that were really willing to compromise a lot of their international strategy to find success in China, they would become successful. The ones that really stayed stubborn to this is how we do it elsewhere, this is also how we're going to do it in China, many of these failed. So very early on, the seed was planted that I wanted to tell the world how to do business in China. 

Fast forward very far, 2003. I had met Sandrine. Sandrine was the CEO at Adidas Greater China, and she had just signed a contract with the Beijing Olympics to become the 2008 Games Sportswear Partner. And she looked for somebody who could really improve her marketing.

I had done very interesting work for which I was voted Asia Pacific marketeer of the year. She loved that work. She invited me and she ended up hiring me first as director of marketing. And then two years later, she made me COO of the Adidas Greater China business. So she was CEO of a COO. We grew the business from very small to very large. And then we went our separate ways. But over the years, we stayed in contact. For a while we worked together again at Lacoste. 

And one day in 2019, we were having lunch and we had just read that Carrefour, the large French retail company, they had almost out of the blue sold themselves to Suning. And they said they could no longer operate profitably in China. And that was very strange because Carrefour had been there for 20 years, very early in China, very successful, very profitable. And all of a sudden, they said, we cannot longer compete. And this astonished us both. Sandrine, of course, being French, so she knew carpool quite well. 

And in our conversation over lunch, it became clear, we need to write a book, because we know what it takes to be successful in China. She had worked for multinationals, she had worked for Chinese companies, and we had this really shared experience.

And it was very clear that we felt we had a lot of answers. And in that lunch in 2019, we decided to write a book. It took us a long time to get going because she was busy, I was busy. But then COVID hit in end 2019, early 2020. And that's we said, well, it's now or never because we had lockdowns, we had time, and then we ended up writing the book. We did a lot of research, interviewed lots of people. And that ended up with the book being published in March 2022.

Mei (06:58 – 07:24)

Yes, thank you, Ado. It's fascinating. So you were sitting with each other and having lunch and this idea was born on the lunch table. And you also mentioned, Sandrine was the CEO of Adidas China, Great China. You were COO and you worked together. And I'm just curious, what were the unique strengths each of you brought to the collaboration of writing this book? How was the process? Because, yeah, how did you do that?

Aldo Spaanjaars (07:24 – 08:11)

It's very clear. The concept belongs to us both. We would discuss, we would brainstorm, get an idea. We both do research. We agree on what we wanted to say. And I like writing. So I ended up actually doing most of the writing, so actually the typing up, but conceptually, it is completely a joint work.

Sandrine's husband is Chinese, so he could also help us with doing research on the Chinese internet. And we would have lots of collaboration sessions, most of it done through Zoom. So from the beginning to the end, it is one shared concept. And I did a little bit more of the typing because I like writing.

Mei (08:11 – 8:58 )

You have written this book and you really outlined all kinds of tactics, the dragon tactics through the chapters. I really love the structure because you give one tactic then you just support this tactic with a lot of business cases of the Chinese companies and of the foreign companies. 

And I would like to just go through those The first one is the wolf culture, hunger teaches life lessons. In this chapter, you explained how Chinese companies have this hunger, they have this relentlessness, offensive spirits and seeking opportunities, all kinds of behaviors. And could you please give us some examples to elaborate this point? So the Western companies can get some idea how should they work with the Chinese companies with this wolf culture.

Aldo Spaanjaars (08:58 – 13:55 )

So one of the characteristics of the China market is that it is extremely competitive. We call it hyper competitive. And in a hyper competitive, you need to be laser focused on what you're doing. So one of the real elements of wolf culture is that Chinese companies are extremely consumer focused with the idea that if you launch a product that consumers are not excited about, they will not buy your product, but they will buy the products of your competitor. But in a highly hyper competitive environment, that would easily mean that your company will not be successful and your company will have a risk of disappearing. So there is this constant need to try to survive and to be faster and to be more consumer focused and to react and respond faster. 

So, that is what a lot of Western companies fully underestimate. They think, oh, we come to China, we launch a product and consumers like it and we'll launch another product. But the speed in which Chinese companies improve and change. A real example is I come from retail. And in the West, it is probably normal to have a store concept that is five to 10 years old. In China, it is two to three years, because if you don't make it new, consumers lose interest. So this speed of having to change. And this fundamentally makes Chinese companies think in a different way. Chinese companies look more at opportunities rather than efficiencies. That means that they take a lot more risk. 

I can give one example that when I worked at Lacoste, my global team wanted me to have less product because we needed to have global efficiencies. They thought I had too many products in China. Whereas I needed more because I needed experiments because parts of the business were not working. My competitor, Villa, they were launching a lot more products than we were doing. They were testing and trying because they thought if we can find a way to connect with consumers, we can grow quickly. Today, Villa is much larger in China than Lacoste ever was, had Lacoste chosen a different strategy, the one that I proposed where we had to test more and experiment more, we could have definitely stayed ahead of Phila. That's also one of the reasons why I ended up leaving Lacoste because the global management simply did not understand how it was needed to stay competitive in China. 

Another good example of wolf culture is Luckin coffee. If I had proposed to my investor that I was going to open 3000 coffee shops in a few years, they would have thrown me out of the room because nobody opens so many thousands of coffee shops in such a short period as a startup. And yet they did this because they knew they had to compete with Starbucks. Starbucks is everywhere. So the only way to build quickly a critical mass was to scale very quickly. But they invented a complete new business model, much more digital, based on much smaller shops rather than... 

So they had really smelt the consumer opportunity that people in China were also buying coffee, not to sit in the Starbucks for a few hours and enjoy the coffee, but no, a lot of people wanted the coffee to go to work very quickly. So they pioneered a complete new business model around that. And that's how they could very successfully compete with Starbucks.

I can probably give a lot more examples, but then the whole conversation will be about wolf culture. But I think the essence of wolf culture really is a real focus on consumers looking for opportunities. And sometimes, because that's also what wolves do, things that are not accepted in a Western environment. Wolf culture companies are known to also break the law.

If you look at Luckin Coffee, they pushed themselves too far. They started ended up cooking their books. And there are lots of other examples as well. They're all this drive to stay ahead of the competition also leads to unwanted behavior. And I think as a Western company doing business in China, you need to always be on an alert as to what is, where to draw the line. 

As a Westerner, I've always been really put a lot of effort in how far can I push things and where is it absolutely too far because I still bring my Western sense of law and rules. And that is not always easy for foreign companies to operate by.

Mei (13:56 – 14:12)

So interesting. And the second tactic is “Adapt to change or die”. I think you can give many, many examples to support this point. Maybe you have some brilliant business cases in your mind?

Aldo Spaanjaars (14:12 – 17:08)

Adept or die, I think it's a very simple sentence, but I think it is the biggest difference between Chinese thinking and Western thinking. Why is that? Because Chinese, they are hotwired. Their DNA is about change. One of the first books ever written in China, the I Ching, was about change. So Chinese think in perpetual motion. Time never stops Whereas in the West, we think more and start and stop. 

And I think that is a fundamental difference and why also Western companies are struggling in China, because Chinese companies are consistently looking for new, because if time is a constant, that means change is a constant and you need to consistently adapt. Whereas Western companies, they would come up with a fixed strategic plan. In China, a Chinese company would have a long -term vision and then go left today, right tomorrow, left again the day after. And Western companies would think that is crazy. We have a strategic plan. We go from A to B and before we get to B, we need to go to A1 and A2 and it's all pre -planned. 

But that doesn't work in a market that changes so quickly in China, which increasingly I think also in the West is going to be important because a Western business society, is also becoming a lot more unpredictable. So the future of the Western business society will look much more like China the last 15, 20 years, much more changing fast. 

A great example of how adapt or die, I think, is Huawei. Due to the American trade war, it became very difficult for Huawei to operate in their 5G. And Huawei was really built around 5G. That was the core of their business, their mobile phone business. I think they lost something like 30 % of their sales because of the trade war. They could no longer use chips. They could no longer use software. But instead of going bankrupt, Huawei very quickly thought, okay, 5G can no longer be our future, what can be our future, and they completely innovated in the area of energy, new energy, and they're now increasingly a global leader in new energy. 

And I think that to me is a very tangible example of this adapt or die. For me, there are many, many, many others as well, that companies that completely consistently reinvent themselves, update themselves, modernize themselves, much more than Western companies are able to do.

Mei (17:05 – 17:59)

Yeah, this my niece, she works for Xiaomi, Xiaomi electric vehicle. It's something totally new because she worked for NIO and then now she moved to Xiaomi because Xiaomi launched the first electric vehicle. If you hear her experience of working with this team of the leadership team of Xiaomi, to put their foot into this new sector, new area, the drive they have, how they work to make it successful. It's really so interesting. And how those companies continuously go to discover new area where they can use the strength to found new business and to found new opportunities. It's unbelievable.

Aldo Spaanjaars (17:59 – 19:45)

We write actually a lot about Xiaomi in our book because Xiaomi is actually a very interesting company to study. In the third chapter, the Emperor chapter, we talk a lot about how companies are being managed and we use Xiaomi a lot because unlike Western companies, Chinese companies don't often have fixed structures. So in the West, you would have a pyramid shape with the CEO on top and then SVPs and then

EVPs or EVPs and SVPs, directors, etc. A lot of Chinese companies are much more built like ecosystems. Xiaomi, when they had 15 ,000 staff, they only had three layers. They had Lei Jun, the boss, then they had six other co -founders, and then everybody else. So 15 ,000 people, three layers, because they didn't have departments.

They organize themselves around projects. They want to develop a new project. Okay. They need to find a software engineer, a hardware engineer. Somebody knows a little bit about marketing and about manufacturing. They put the project team together. They develop a product which very often involves a lot of consumers because they test early, they put a prototype out, they collect people's input. And then they keep improving the product. And once the product is launched, the team can dismantle and they go on to do different things. 

So it's a much more flexible ecosystem driven organization, which really helps in being much more agile and flexible because in a Western company, somebody sits in a department and that department is not very busy. Then that person is not very busy, but in a Xiaomi environment, that person will be assigned to another project, even if it isn't in another part of the company. Fascinating company, Xiaomi.

Mei (19:45 – 20:45)

Yeah, it's fascinating. Every time when I call her, she always shares how they are doing, what kind of growth, what kind of plans they have. It's always fascinating for me to hear how they evolve and how they thrive. 

I want to ask you about another point. You just mentioned Xiaomi, it's your third tactic, the Emperor decides, but the ideology rules. And so you used Xiaomi already as a good example. And your fourth tactic, people come and go, those fit stay longer. And so you explored the family culture and Confucianism in this chapter, and to elaborate on this point.

And could you please share some insights with our listeners and especially for Western companies to learn how they can manage Chinese teams and collaborate based on those insights?

Aldo Spaanjaars (20:45 – 23:29)

I think one of the most fundamental differences also for Western companies is the way to look at entrepreneurial opportunities. In Wolf culture, you're constantly looking for opportunities because if it is hyper competitive, you have to find new opportunities. In the West, for all the CEOs that I've ever worked for or worked with as a consultant, you propose, you say, oh, we need to become more entrepreneurial. And they would always agree, yes, we need to become more entrepreneurial.

But then when you actually make entrepreneurial proposals, they say, yeah, well, maybe not such a good idea. It's not our global strategy. Perhaps Chinese leaders are consistently looking for people that can bring entrepreneurial opportunities. And they are much more flexible because if you have a fixed strategy and say, this is the core of my company and we're not going to be a little bit to the left and a little bit to the right. And then if somebody brings an idea that is a little bit to the left, you say no.

But in an environment that is much more hyper competitive, moves faster, is more unpredictable, you have to become more flexible as a company and you have to start evaluating other types of opportunities as well. This is where entrepreneurial thinking staff come in, people that have new ideas. So I think that is one of the things that in an increasingly unpredictable world, western leaders also want you to look at. 

If you look at the last 10, 15 years, the Western world was relatively, the Western business world was relatively stable. We have outsourced a lot to China, therefore costs in Europe and the US went down, wealth went up and business had a good growth path. But if you look at the next 10, 15 years, it will be very different. AI will be extremely disruptive, climate change will be extremely disruptive. We've had the disruption of COVID that are still working its way through the system. We need to be more socially adapt and businesses need to become more socially responsive, et cetera, et cetera. So the challenges, the complexities of a lot of businesses will go much higher. Therefore, they need to become more agile. They need to be faster and react more to market opportunities. Especially in the area of artificial intelligence. So you need more entrepreneurial thinking staff on your teams that can help your company move faster. And I think that's a real important learning for a lot of Western companies that where they can look at Chinese companies, how they do it.

Mei (23:29 – 24:37)

Yeah, Ado, about this point, you have been working with all kinds of companies, American companies, German companies and Chinese companies and all kinds of companies from all kinds of countries and you collaborated with international teams. And if we look at this point, so human resources, the people, the team, plays such an important role for the success of companies. And I think most of the time, this is also something which a lot of Western companies struggle. How can they manage the Chinese teams and really well, how they can keep the talents. 

And if you look at the challenges of the Western companies, as someone has such extensive leadership role, what kind of practical tips you can give to Western companies to keep their talent and to stimulate those people to contribute and to help the companies thrive?

Aldo Spaanjaars (24:37 – 27:40)

I think you used the right word, contribute. I think in an environment like of China, and of course things are changing a bit because the market is getting more difficult, but over the last 10, 15 years, it was critical that you gave an opportunity to talent to develop themselves very quickly. With a wolf mindset, you consistently need to score your next price because otherwise you go hungry. And that same mindset was for a lot of young talents as well. So we spent a lot of time, also in my Adidas days already, in making sure that people can develop very quickly. We had to create opportunities. 

And I think this is another thing that a lot of Western companies got wrong. You really have to create a family feel. Chinese companies read, Chinese staff really would like to belong somewhere. If I go back to China tomorrow, a few days later, I will probably find myself in a dinner with a lot of my ex Adidas colleagues. Everybody is now in different companies, but there is still at the time we had such a strong corporate culture that even that culture still lasts today. (25:07)

When I went to weddings in my Adidas time, there were often more staff than there were family members. So it was always critical to build this very strong bond between the leadership and the staff. And I think a lot of Western companies get this wrong. They fly in the CEO, he's there for two to three years at an expert assignment, then the next one comes in. But it has really built a culture where people really get to feel that they can develop quickly, that they are given opportunities. And I think that's critical. 

Another thing is that, and this is where I made my management, in China more Western. In Chinese companies, a lot of it is top down. But I found that especially the talents, they would like to be heard. So it's critical to create an environment where we think as a team, but where there's a lot of room for individual contribution. So instead of very often telling my people what to do, I would really ask them what they thought had to be done.

And in the beginning, they were uncomfortable with that because they expect the boss to tell them what to do. They don't expect the boss to ask them what they think needs to be done. But they're all very intelligent people. So once they get the hang of that, they actually see that they're being rewarded because their thinking is being taken into account. And ultimately, I would make them also responsible for executing their own thinking. So it gives them an opportunity to prove that their thinking is correct. 

So build a relationship where you give them a lot of freedom within boundaries, where you give them a lot of freedom to bring ideas and to execute those ideas and actually help them make those ideas a success. That has over my career always been my golden formula.

Mei (27:40 – 27:55)

Thank you for sharing your golden formula. Aldo, it's brilliant. Thank you!

And the last tactic, it all starts with data. Pplease give our listeners some idea about this tactic.

Aldo Spaanjaars (27:55 – 29:41)

In 10, 15 years, China has become one of the most digital places in the world. Just go back, I think WeChat only started in 2011 or 2012. So it's, and today, incredible digital development. And what we are increasingly seeing is that the amount of data is available in China. It really helps to become...first, to be much more consumer focused, as I said before, Chinese companies are extremely consumer focused. And the more data you have, the easier it is to become consumer focused. 

But the next step is to start building complete new business models. And if you see what the Shein is achieving globally, or what Pingduoduo or Temu now is achieving globally, you start seeing real new business models arising that are all based on data. So Chinese companies, for as long as I've been in China, have always had a real strong focus on data models. The amount of data through the ecosystems that they belong to is incredibly diverse. That will also lead to interesting artificial intelligence. And of course, it will now be slowed down a bit due to the restrictions on chips. But I'm convinced that a lot of companies will find their ways around it. So you will start seeing a lot more digital business models pioneered in China, for which I think Temu is a very interesting example to look at. I would expect a lot more like this to be developed over the coming years.

Mei (29:41 – 30:23)

Yeah, certainly. I think we can expect a lot of Chinese companies with digital models, digital business models expanding in the foreign countries as well in the coming years. Aldo, thank you so much for sharing those business cases and examples to elaborate on those tactics. So if our listeners are interested, in how to use those tactics and interested to learn from the business cases, please go to grab the book from Aldo. People can buy it from Amazon, right?

Aldo Spaanjaars (30:23 – 30:44 )

It is available on Amazon. There's also a French version available in France, and you can also get it in selected bookstores in the Netherlands. And you can get it also at our publisher called bispublishers.com. So if you simply do a search for the book online, you will find different places where you can find it.

Mei (30:44 – 31:03)

You also have a website, a dedicated website about this book, right? The Dragon Tactics. Okay, so please listeners, if you are interested in this book, I highly recommend you to go to, yeah, find the book and read it and enjoy it. And Aldo, I want to go just together with you, I want to reflect on your journey.

Aldo Spaanjaars 

Correct. DragonTactics .com.

Mei (31:03 – 31:28 )

Aldo, I want to, together with you, I want to reflect on your journey in China. If you look at back at your 20 years, 30 years in foreign countries, but more than 20 years in China, what are the moments or experiences that really stand out the most in shaping your understanding of the country?

Aldo Spaanjaars (31:38 – 32:51 )

Wow, that's a big question because there are many moments. My first arrival on Cheninmen Square, I can still remember. It was April 1992 and I was on Cheninmen Square for the first time in my life. That's a very clear defining moment. The Beijing Olympics, I was in the bird's nest in the stadium at the opening night of the Beijing Olympics in 2008. A very clear defining moment.

But what also has been very important and transforming for me is that I worked for two very interesting Chinese companies. I worked for Fosun International, Fuxing, Shanghai Fuxing, and also for Xiamen Anta Tiyu, the sports company. And actually working in a very Chinese environment also changed me very much because it changed my thinking and a lot of the experiences ended up in my book.

So it's been quite a transformative journey in my almost three decades in China. I've seen China change from, I always describe it to my friends, I've seen China change from the 16th century until the 21st century. And obviously in 30 years time, that is quite an impressive change. So I am looking for the next change.

Mei (32:51 – 33:12)

If I look at my life, I moved to here 25 years ago and Netherlands really changed me. And I can imagine for you the other way around, really China changed you as a person. But if you look at, look back at this journey, are you also changed as a person by China in some aspects?

Aldo Spaanjaars (33:12 – 34:24 )

Yes, I think I am. In personal relationships. They say that Dutch people are very direct and like to give you their opinion, whether you're asked or not. I was very much like that when I first went to China, but obviously that's a very big cultural difference. So I think I have become in this respect, I think over the years I've become a better listener, understanding the environment better first, before giving an opinion. I am less direct. 

Although in China, people always like it that I am direct because sometimes in China, people are not direct enough and now you have to guess more. In my Dutch personality, that still comes through. I don't like to be vague. I am less direct from a more pushy point of view, but I still would be concrete about what needs to happen. So yes, I think I'm a different person, but also I'm a bit of an older person. I'm sure that also has something to do with it compared to when I first left.

Mei (34:24 – 34:53 )

Yeah, we all get older and at some point of life. But I think this is also something very important. We pick up something from other countries, other cultures, and we combine with our own cultural heritage and strengths. So we become the best mixture. I think we can serve both cultures, both countries even better if we can make a good mixture.

Aldo Spaanjaars (34:53 – 36:06 )

But that is the reason, Mei, why I joined the VNC. I think it's important that even in today's environment, the relationship with China is under pressure. That is very clear. But I'm convinced that somehow we need to keep the dialogue going. Somehow we need to continue to do business together. And I think that was a key reason for me to join the board of the VNC because we have to find and organize opportunities for the Chinese side and the Dutch side to keep talking, to learn more about each other, to have joint events, to meet each other at activities, to learn about each other's culture. 

So this is important role that we play at the FEE and SAVE. We have been doing that for almost five decades. And I'm really enjoying that although I'm in the Netherlands, I still get exposed to a lot of Chinese thinking, Chinese people, Chinese culture. So I can only urge people to join the VNC and to help us in our mission.

Mei (36:06 – 37:31)

Yeah, thank you so much, Aldo. This is for our listeners. This is actually a series about the VNC members. So you are my third guest from VNC because all of you joined VNC to create more dialogue between the countries and between the people and between the businesses. I think this is something we can feel your passion and you have experiences from both cultures and both countries. You are very active at VNC and thank you very much for doing this work and because it benefits my country and your country and yeah it's so important. 

Aldo, I want to conclude this podcast with a question. And normally I ask my guests to give advice about how to be successful in China. But in your in the first chapter of your book, you started with a very intriguing questions. Why in China, some fail and others succeed? So I just would like to ask you how can companies, how can people really succeed in China? Can you give them some tips to avoid those failures you mentioned in your book?

Aldo Spaanjaars (37:31 – 40:32)

That advice would be very similar to the advice I would have given people 30 years ago, although the market has completely changed. 

So obviously the first advice today is you need to figure out whether your product or your service is actually, whether there's room in the markets. China is highly, highly, highly competitive. That doesn't mean that there are no opportunities if you look at opportunities in healthcare or if you look at opportunities in elderly care. or anything to do with climate change and improvement of the environment. I think there's still lots and lots of opportunities. So first figure out, is there really an opportunity for your business? 

And once there is, really figure out what is needed to be done to be successful. Don't go there with an idea, this is how we do it everywhere else. China is a very different market. Chinese people think very differently. They're at a different stage of market development. So you really need to figure out does my product fit within the Chinese needs? And if not, how do I need to adjust my products fundamentally to change it? 

An example I give that for me sums it up. When I first came to China, I worked in advertising. I had a company called Kellogg's Corn Flakes as one of my clients.

They had a big factory, but nobody was buying Kellogg's cornflakes. And I was coaching and working with the Chinese management team and we had a meeting at Asia Pacific level. And I was told by the China team that I could not propose to the Asia Pacific team that they should forget about trying to sell cornflakes, but that they need to figure out what Chinese people eat for breakfast because the Asia Pacific management would not want to listen to that. which I thought was one of the most bizarre things because Kellogg's thought they could teach the Chinese to learn to eat Kellogg's cornflakes. But if the Chinese eat very different things for breakfast, it's better to make these products and be successful doing that. 

Today, Kellogg's cornflakes is still very small in China and we're now almost 30 years later. So had they started making premium fried breadsticks or if they had to come up with a powder form of congee or whatever you can think of. I'm sure Kellogg's Cornflakes would have been a lot more successful. But they were cornflakes and they were not going to change the fundamentals of their offer. 

So long story short, if there is no opportunity for your product, don't go to China. If you do see opportunities, adapt your offer, your team, your product, everything you do in order to understand what the Chinese market needs and what its consumers need and then deliver a very good value for money product. There are many examples of companies that have done that and have become very successful to do so.

Mei (40:33 – 40:56 )

Thank you so much, Aldo, for the advice and also thank you so much for taking time to be here to share your knowledge and insights with our listeners! Before we end this interview, please share with people how they can find you and connect with you online.

Aldo Spaanjaars (40:56 – 41:36 )

The easiest is via LinkedIn via my profile. My email addresses are on there. So you can also find me through Mei through your podcast, I'm sure. And go to dragon tactics .com. You can learn more about the book also about, about the background of Sandrine and myself. And if anybody has ever any need for advice around China business, coaching China business. I do a lot of turnarounds, so if a company is in trouble, I help them improve their business. So if you ever have those needs, I am available via LinkedIn.

Mei (41:36 – 41:52 ) Thank you, Aldo. I will put all of the information in the podcast show notes and YouTube show notes. I want to thank you for being here with us and for this fascinating conversation. ALdo, I enjoyed it very much.

Aldo Spaanjaars:  Thank you very much for having me. A very enjoyable experience indeed.