We often overlook the signs of burnout. Discover a roadmap to maintaining balance in our professional lives, which is essential for a thriving work environment.
In the second episode in our series on wellness at work, Kyla Cofer helps us unravel the nuanced stages of burnout that can undermine productivity and morale. We discussed the instrumental role leaders play in recognizing and actively responding to the early warning signs of employee stress and how leaders can cultivate a supportive atmosphere where individuals feel seen and valued, ultimately enhancing company performance and job satisfaction. We build a case for the importance of understanding and adaptive leadership and the transformative potential of supportive workplace communities.
Kyla Cofer is a leadership coach, speaker, and podcast host. Her work focuses on burnout, embracing failure, and podcasting. She's the creator of the Leadership School Podcast and Podcaster School. She helps leaders heal from burnout, embrace failure, and step into being the great leader they were born to be.
Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.
Invite Manya to inspire and empower your teams + position your organization as a forward-thinking leader in fostering resilience and trauma sensitivity.
We often overlook the signs of burnout. Discover a roadmap to maintaining balance in our professional lives, which is essential for a thriving work environment.
In the second episode in our series on wellness at work, Kyla Cofer helps us unravel the nuanced stages of burnout that can undermine productivity and morale. We discussed the instrumental role leaders play in recognizing and actively responding to the early warning signs of employee stress and how leaders can cultivate a supportive atmosphere where individuals feel seen and valued, ultimately enhancing company performance and job satisfaction. We build a case for the importance of understanding and adaptive leadership and the transformative potential of supportive workplace communities.
Kyla Cofer is a leadership coach, speaker, and podcast host. Her work focuses on burnout, embracing failure, and podcasting. She's the creator of the Leadership School Podcast and Podcaster School. She helps leaders heal from burnout, embrace failure, and step into being the great leader they were born to be.
Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.
Invite Manya to inspire and empower your teams + position your organization as a forward-thinking leader in fostering resilience and trauma sensitivity.
Creating emotional safety at work is a lot more challenging because you can't see it. But you know, if someone's yelling at you you're not emotionally safe, Like if I get yelled at at work. I'm not going to tell that person. When I need some more space, I'm going to want to yell back. You know I'm not going to feel like I can have a conversation when I'm not well. I'm going to expect different expectations to be different. But if you're already creating and prioritizing a company, even a small business with three employees, if you are prioritizing well-being, then those things will happen naturally. But you have to celebrate that in a way that makes it easy to talk about, that makes it easy to talk about.
Manya Chylinski:
Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski, and my guest today is Kyla Cofer, and she's joining us for this episode in the series on wellness at work, and we are talking about burnout. Kyla is a leadership coach, a podcaster and a keynote speaker, and she herself has experienced burnout, and we talk about what is it, how can we pay attention to it as individuals and as organizations. I think you're really going to learn a lot in this conversation, kyla. I am so excited to have you back on the podcast. Thank you for being here.
Kyla Cofer:
It's so good to see you, Manya. Thanks for having me
Manya Chylinski:
For our keen-eared listeners, you may recognize Kyla. She was a guest early on in my podcast and I'm bringing her back today because we want to talk about wellness at work for this new series and the concept of burnout. But, kyla, before we dig into that, I need to know. I'm asking everyone this year. The question is if you could have dinner with any historical figure, who would it be and why?
Kyla Cofer:
Okay. So I've been thinking a lot about this. You warned me about this question and I it really hard for me. I don't know why. It was just really challenging. I guess because they say never meet your heroes. And I've met people who are heroic to me and I understand that phrase because they're just normal people, right. But I really thought about this in detail and I would love to have dinner in this room. I was torn between Susan B Anthony and Harriet Tubman and then, right before we got on this call, I realized I found through my Googling that they actually met once in a room at a dinner party. So I would like to be at that dinner party to meet both of them, mostly because I just want to say thank you.
Kyla Cofer:
My life is because of people like them, with Susan B Anthony's gender, female activism and really working for women's rights and the right to vote, all of that, and then Harriet Tubman's courage to save all the people that she saved, and just I don't know.
Kyla Cofer:
I keep thinking to be in a room with two people who knew what they had to do and weren't afraid to do it, and they just did it anyways, even if it was hard, through all the challenges and the impossibility of it, of the tasks that they were faced with. I want to say that they had courage, but knowing when you're in a position like that, it's really like you don't think about the courage. Those people probably didn't think I'm being courageous. They thought I have no other choice other than to do this thing because it's in front of me and it's what I have to do, and I get that. So I feel like I just want to say you did it and thank you, and this is what the life has looked like now because of you. I think that'd be really great. Maybe draw from some of that courage and draw some inspiration from them, from some of that courage and draw some inspiration from them.
Manya Chylinski:
I appreciate you mentioning that saying don't ever meet your heroes but just as a way to remember that these are people who did things that we think are amazing and are objectively amazing. But it is so different when you're the person who's actually making the change. It doesn't always feel like this grand gesture.
Kyla Cofer:
I've just noticed that every like I see a lot of documentaries on people or you read their bios and I just think it's really fascinating how they never felt like they were really like reaching maybe for extraordinary. They just were doing what was in front of them and what made sense to who they were, and didn't avoid the hardness of it and didn't give up when it got tough, which is something I really want to do often, yes, because sometimes life gets really challenging and I'm like I don't know a way forward. But when I look at people who found a way forward, I think, okay, I can do it because they did. Just really grateful for the people who have gone before me.
Manya Chylinski:
Well, I love what you said. You just sort of they talk about and you talk about. You just kind of do the thing that's in front of you in the moment and I sometimes say, and other people, you play the cards that you're dealt. But sometimes it's exhausting and I think that leads us very nicely into the concept of burnout, and you know we're talking about wellness at work. So before we dive into you know what is burnout and all the dimensions of that and how can we prevent against it, etc. How would you define wellness in the concept of a work environment?
Kyla Cofer:
I really just two words come to mind boundaries and balance. I've heard people say that there's no such thing as balance and I just disagree. I think that there really can be, but it just looks different at different times. But at a workplace without boundaries you will not have wellness. It just isn't going to happen. So when you can incorporate healthy boundaries for yourself, but for your coworkers, for your boss, for your employees, when you are setting your own boundaries and allowing people to set theirs as well, then you're already establishing a workplace of wellness.
Kyla Cofer:
So if you're like we don't work more than 40 hours a week unless it's an emergency, and then we cut. If you're like we don't work more than 40 hours a week unless it's an emergency, and then we cut back the next week, we find that rhythm and we set that boundary where everybody has that standard, that's creating wellness. If we say we've had a really rough time lately, so we're going to step back from things, we're not going to take that extra client because we know that it's not going to be good for us. It might be a cash cow, but it's going to harm us in the end. We know how to say no to that and to set ourselves up for that, and it could be really hard, but if we're willing to know what our limits are and to make our decisions in that, that's the baseline for establishing a pattern of wellness at work.
Manya Chylinski:
So boundaries? I love this conversation because I was just giving a talk recently and we were talking about compassion in the workplace and somebody said boundaries are compassion Giving someone boundaries are compassion. So I guess we're talking about a couple different kind of boundaries. My personal boundaries what will and won't I do but we're also talking about the organization's boundaries and I guess I'm wondering you know how, as an organization, do you set boundaries, or how do they get out of control? I guess that's two different questions.
Kyla Cofer:
Yeah. So it's going to veer a little bit away from our conversation about burnout, but I think it's really important that the mission and vision of the company and what you're doing. It's really important to always stay focused on that goal, like who are we and where are we going? If you can't answer those questions quickly and very clearly, can't answer those questions quickly and very clearly, then making decisions becomes really convoluted. Because if you are, for example, a juice company and you don't know why you do juice or where you're going with it, who you serve, what's your client base, why does it matter to you, then you won't know when it's time to grow, when it's time to stop growing, when you have the finances to open a new location or not open a new location. If you're thinking about opening a new location, let's say you've been super successful and it's time to open, but we don't know the type of client we serve, then how do we know what community are we going to go into for our second location? Where are we going to go? Are we going to just spend $200,000 opening a location in a place where people don't drink juice? Where is it that we're going? And it's like who are we and why are we there?
Kyla Cofer:
Really being clear on our mission, we are a juice company that serves local urban communities. It's important to us that we offer nutritious foods as an opportunity for people to have that at a low cost or whatever that is. So if low cost is important to us, then we're not going to charge $21 for two ounces of juice. If high quality ingredients matters to us more than the low cost, then we can charge $21 for our cup of juice, you know. So those questions come into play. And then when we're setting that up and we know what our mission is, we know our vision, then it's easier to go okay, we're going to say no to this because it hurts us. We're going to say yes to this because it helps us. And when we do that well, not only are we thriving in our company and our organization, but then our clients notice and our revenue grows and we are fulfilling our. I don't like using the word purpose, but that's the only one I could come up with, but we're fulfilling our goals there in our environment that we're in.
Manya Chylinski:
Well, that was a great example. I really appreciate that. Now let's tie that back into burnout. So what if you aren't true to your mission? Or let's say you have decided that you're all about high price ingredients, but now you're all over the place and you're trying to do low prices and you're making you're probably making your people work more than Well, right there.
Kyla Cofer:
So that's actually. I have another example. It's not a juice example, but it's someone that I know, actually recently. So there's a company who they've always struggled financially, but it's a pretty large company and they have just lost several high level employees and one of the employees was working like three jobs and is exhausted and was like, okay, where do you want me to spend my time? And went to the boss going I can't do this anymore. I need some support here. I need to know where you want me to spend my time. And went to the boss going. I can't do this anymore. I need some support here. I need to know where you want me to put my attention and focus.
Kyla Cofer:
And the boss, like top dog, said if you're looking for someone to convince you to stay, I'm not that guy. That is an unhealthy boundary and is not going to work because this employee now is exhausted, doesn't want to be there, isn't motivated anymore, is hurting, probably mentally and physically, because of the type of job that they're doing, and so they're going to quit and leave. So they have quit and they've left, but now they have to bring somebody else in. The company actually has to spend more money training somebody who doesn't know how to do that job probably really does need to bring the extra three people in. So now you're bringing all these other people in. If you would have just given this one employee what they needed, then they would have stayed. You would have probably saved money, they would have been happier and your company would be more successful.
Kyla Cofer:
So when we're talking about why are boundaries and burnout important, because this particular person burnt out, right, you're going to get burnt out if you don't have those healthy boundaries in place and if you're a company who doesn't care about your people. So that's talk. We're going into people first conversation here. But if you're a company who's like we're just doing our work, like it doesn't matter, I don't care about your wellbeing, I don't care as long as the job is done, and if you don't want to do it, I'll find somebody else. Well, you're going to always have that problem, okay, Well, just to take a step back.
Manya Chylinski:
What are the symptoms of burnout? How would I know if I was being burnt out by my job, for example?
Kyla Cofer:
Yeah, so it's actually a long list. But burnout kind of is in phases. So I mean the definition if we're just going to make sure we're all on the same page is it's extreme exhaustion from overwork or stress. It's mental, physical or emotional exhaustion from overworking or stress. So you're going to be tired, you're going to be angry, you're going to be a little bit irritable, you're going to be worried about things, you're going to have trouble making decisions, and then it moves into this phase. So it might start where you're just having a bad day or you're bored, but then it could spiral into I'm stressed a lot.
Kyla Cofer:
You might start to have pain. When I start noticing it, I get a side pain under my ribs. I'm like, oh, something's not right here, it's because I haven't cared for myself. I get physical pain there. You might have heart palpitations, you could get dizziness, your hair might fall out. So it's kind of a spectrum and you have to really be paying attention to catch it, because you might think, oh, I just had a bad day, or it might be a little bit of stress here. But you really have to be intentional about stepping back and going. I'm going to look at the full picture of my life here. What's going on? Am I getting overstressed? Am I overworking? Am I putting too much overstressed? Am I overworking? Am I putting too much? You will get sick more and you will. You just will get sick, and because your body is going to shut down.
Manya Chylinski:
So it just shuts down in little parts at different times. Okay, so from position of the leadership in a company, then I'm going to start seeing some of these things in my employee right, they're going to be taking more sick time. Maybe quitting is the ultimate example of struggle. What are some other things I might notice as a manager or somebody in the C-suite to see what's actually happening in the company?
Kyla Cofer:
Well, you might notice if people aren't working the same level that they used to we saw that a lot, especially during pandemic, about quiet quitting If someone who is really excited to show up to work not as excited to show up to work anymore. I mean, you have to be intentional and pay attention. I think this is where we're going to talk about. Like, if you are at a leadership position, if you're in a leadership role and you are not attending to and noticing the people that you're leading, then you're not leading. So you've got to take the time to observe. How are the people doing? Are they talking to each other? Are they getting along? Do they show up on time? Do they stay? Do they put their effort in? Do they want to be part of something? Can you feel an energy around? I'm really intuitive, so I can feel that energy. Some people might not be able to do that, but you can see it. Do you notice that? For the people are just not smiling, are they grumbling, are they complaining, or are they ready to show up and do the hard things? Just start noticing what's the environment like and you might notice it just in one person, and maybe that one person just isn't a fit for that job. Is that the case, or is it trickling throughout everybody?
Kyla Cofer:
Every culture is different, and I think, if you aren't sure, then that might be a time where you do bring in an expert, someone like yourself, Manya, who can come in and go. Okay, these things aren't working. Do you even notice that your people hate being here all day long, that they're stressed, that they don't know how to do their jobs? Bringing in an outside view perspective is really, really valuable, because they're going to ask questions and people are going to be more willing to talk to someone that's not actually in the company, but notice and pay attention and you'll be able to pick up on it. But also, as a leader, how are you feeling? I mean, are you feeling like things aren't getting done and accomplished to the level that you want? Are you not getting the clients that you want? Are you not serving the customers that you want? Is the quality suffering? Are you losing employees? There's dozens of questions that you need to start asking.
Manya Chylinski:
Right. I imagine that could be frightening as a leader to start digging into this if you realize that there is a lot of burnout, whether it's in yourself or the people you work with, because I think-.
Kyla Cofer:
I want to interrupt you because, yeah, I think it could be scary, especially anytime you're facing a potential change. If you're not comfortable with change, that would feel scary, but I don't see it as something to be afraid of. I see it as something exciting because it's something you're investing into and you're thinking about. This is one way that I'm growing further and we're bettering our company, and that's something that's exciting. When a company is going to, you can see that it's going to grow, it's going to benefit and you're going to be more successful and by investing in employee wellbeing, you're going gonna do that, then that's a positive thing and excitement, and we've seen this.
Kyla Cofer:
For this is not a new concept, right? I mean, EAPs started decades ago that employees started offering health insurance because employers offered health insurance because they saw how it benefited employees and they stayed longer because they had these benefits. When you're including wellness benefits and being creative about what those look like, people start doing better and your company does better. So this is not a new concept. It's just what is your company doing well and what do you need to improve in and how can you be more creative in offering those benefits to your employees? And if you're not doing them, then today's the day you start Right.
Manya Chylinski:
I, like you know you were talking about on the individual side. Is this something that you're excited about doing? And I have been paying attention a lot recently to that part of conversations when someone feels really engaged and energized and you can tell that what they're talking about is like really heart work that they're talking about. And then you talk to somebody who's maybe sharing even a similar story and you just don't feel that at all. That's not to say that everything has to be the most exciting thing that ever happened, but you can feel that energetic difference when someone knows they're making a difference and feel supported.
Kyla Cofer:
Yeah, and if you're not someone who is comfortable feeling emotions like that way or that comes easy to you, I would say, then just find places where you can start practicing that. To notice people's emotions. So pick two different topics of conversation with somebody and see which one they like talk more about. You know which one gets them talking faster, which one does their eyes light up, do their body language change? Do they like, do you have to stop them?
Kyla Cofer:
Like you're having you keep having to interrupt me because I just keep going right, like are you having to stop that person and be like let's switch topics? You know, or are you having, or are they just like, shutting down, where you're having to prod them? But also taking into mind like different personalities someone might be more willing to talk about something and someone else might go. Well, you have to ask them questions and draw it out of them. But pretty much everybody, even if there's someone where you typically have to draw things out, when you hit that spot of something that lights their fire, they're going to get into it.
Manya Chylinski:
Absolutely. Now, you know you were talking about wellness benefits and I imagine there's a whole host of things companies can do to be supportive. I mean, I'd not imagine. I do know that there are a whole host of things companies can do to be supportive, but to some degree. When we're supporting our workers and hoping to prevent burnout, we are talking about individual solutions because we're each different. Like you were just saying. Some people aren't particularly emotional, others are, and there's different ways you need to support people. What is that like from the side of the leader, having to figure out how to support and protect against burnout when it isn't just a one size fits all check the box and it's done?
Kyla Cofer:
I think you just start asking, I mean and that can be tricky to do, especially when you're busy at work but to really ask those questions what do you need? How can I best support you? What does support look like? That's Brene Brown's question that I love. What does support look like for you right now? What do you need to be successful in this role? What can I do to help you be successful in this role?
Kyla Cofer:
Some people aren't going to say I need to take two days off because my dog is sick, and that stresses me out. People might not be comfortable doing that because they think, well, that's not something you would ask off for work for. So if you are already creating a culture with healthy boundaries, an environment at work where wellness is not just accepted and approved but celebrated, but we're celebrating well-being, then people are going to feel more comfortable to do that. And when people feel safe at work not just physically safe, but emotionally safe it's really important to distinguish the two things. I don't expect that when I go to work that I'm going to get beat up, but like I mean, unless you are a jujitsu master or something but I'm not planning on getting being in physical danger when I'm at work.
Kyla Cofer:
Like I said, there are going to be exceptions to that rule. But even in those exceptions, people work pretty hard at physical safety, like you're wearing your vests, you know whatever that is. So. But creating emotional safety at work is a lot more challenging because you can't see it. But you know, if someone's yelling at you you're not emotionally safe Like I. If I get yelled at at work, I'm not going to tell that person. When I need some more space I'm going to want to yell back. I'm not going to feel like I can have a conversation when I'm not well. I'm going to expect different expectations to be different. But if you're already creating and prioritizing a company, even a small business with three employees, if you are prioritizing wellbeing, then those things will happen naturally. But you have to celebrate that in a way that makes it easy to talk about.
Manya Chylinski:
Just reminded me of a story. I worked at a job and within the first week there was somebody who was standing two inches in front of my face yelling at me because I was not able to do what this person needed me to do and my response had been well, I can't do that, but let me figure it out and I will come back and fix it for you. But that was not acceptable. And that person yelled at me and then I shared it with my boss and I was told that this person is very important to the organization and basically we know this person is a problem and basically we know this person is a problem but we're not going to do anything about it. And I didn't realize until later, when I learned all about psychological safety at work and building trauma-sensitive organizations and burnout and all of this stuff. That's not cool.
Kyla Cofer:
And I think that's really hard for a lot of companies when you see I need this person. They know my company history, they're my top salesman, whatever but they're the leak in the boat. Regardless of how well they're doing at their job. The rest of the company is suffering because of that person and you can't just keep plugging the leak. It's just, it's not going to work, because that means everybody else is focused instead of rowing the boat. They're focused on plugging the leak, right? So making this person happy, tiptoeing around them, making sure you say the right things, not stirring the pot, looking for jobs on your lunch break because you can't be there anymore, right? So do you want all the rest of your employees just fighting to survive or do you want them all to thrive and to let that one person go? If you let that person who, if they had let that person go that yelled at you, you would have stayed and been their best employee or pretty close to it. Yeah, make the hard decisions. Make the hard decisions. We're adults. Make them.
Manya Chylinski:
Yeah, well yeah, but I appreciate you bringing up the concept of psychological safety and it just I flashed onto. I still remember what it felt like to be standing there, oh yeah, and have this person yelling at me so close in my personal space. And I know we've bounced around and not always talking about just burnout here, but Because it's so many things.
Kyla Cofer:
It's not one thing.
Manya Chylinski:
Yeah, it's all of it? Yeah, but as we're getting close to the end of our time for the podcast, carla and I are going to continue talking for hours after this. What else do we need to be thinking about burnout and how to deal with it in the workplace?
Kyla Cofer:
I think it's really just important to acknowledge that it looks different for everybody and we have so many different personalities that we work with and if we are in leadership and assuming that what applies to one person will work for everybody else, then we're going to fail and you will inevitably create burnout in your culture. But if you are celebrating wellbeing, prioritizing it and understanding that everybody needs different things at different times, then you can offer different things at different times and you can create that and just remembering like this matters. We've been having these conversations for years and you and I have been having these conversations for years. So many people are having these conversations because it matters and our culture is shifting and changing and, to be honest, if you are listening and you're in a company that is not prioritizing well-being, then you are way behind and it's time to catch up to the game, catch up to culture and to make this a priority and make this matter. And if you're not sure how to do it, then there are hundreds and I mean dozens and hundreds of resources that are going to help you do that from right here. Manya and I are here and available to do that and support you, but there are other people that can do that as well. It's just the time to always to start something is always today.
Kyla Cofer:
And going back to like thinking about Susan B Anthony and Harriet Tubman, you know they didn't wait until they were ready or until culture was ready for them. They didn't wait until they were ready or until culture was ready for them. They did what was right and did it anyways and push through it and might not and didn't really live to see all the changes that they were part of, but they did it anyways and I think that's the priority when we're talking about wellbeing in a workplace. You might not see physically the changes that you're making, but do them anyways and make that effort, because you will make a difference and you will change culture and you will change your company and all everybody will be better for it.
Manya Chylinski:
Oh, excellent. Thank you so much, Kyla. Now, before we log off, how can people reach you if they want to learn more about you and the work that you do?
Kyla Cofer:
You could just reach out to me at my website, which is K-Y-L-A-C-O-F-E-R. com. I love connecting on LinkedIn, so please reach out to me at LinkedIn and you can also take a listen to my podcast, which is Leadership School.
Manya Chylinski:
Thank you so much, kyla. As always, I learn so much when I talk with you, so thank you for sharing today.
Kyla Cofer:
You're so great, I'm so glad to be here and I always love talking to you.
Manya Chylinski:
Manya, thanks for having me. Thank you, bye everyone. Thank you for listening. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did, so if you'd like to learn more about me, manya Chylinski, I work with organizations to help understand how to create environments where people can thrive after difficult life experiences, and I do this through talks and consulting. I'm a survivor of mass violence and I use my experience to help leaders learn about resiliency, compassion and trauma-sensitive leadership to build strategies to enable teams to thrive and be engaged amidst difficulty and turmoil. If this is something you want to learn more about, visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com, or email me at manya@ manyachylinski. com, or stop by my social media on LinkedIn and Twitter. Thanks so much.
