Notes on Resilience
Conversations about trauma, resilience, and compassion.
How do we genuinely support individuals who have experienced trauma and build inclusive and safe environments? Trauma significantly affects the mental and physical health of those who experience it, and personal resiliency is only part of the solution. The rest lies in addressing organizational, systemic, and social determinants of health and wellness, and making the effort to genuinely understand the impact of trauma.
Here, we ask and answer the tough questions about how wellness is framed in an organizational context, what supports are available and why, what the barriers are to supporting trauma survivors, and what best practices contribute to mental wellness. These conversations provide a framework to identify areas for change and actionable steps to reshape organizations to be truly trauma sensitive.
Notes on Resilience
91: Understanding Suicide: From Crisis Response to Community Well-Being, with Hudson Harris
What if our current approach to mental health care is fundamentally flawed?
Listen in on the final episode in our four-part series for suicide prevention awareness month. I sit down with Hudson Harris, a visionary in behavioral health and suicide prevention, to dissect the urgent need for dedicated champions in mental health advocacy. Hudson shares why it's critical to transition from crisis response to a well-being-focused system, the societal and personal costs of suicide, which he describes as incalculable, and the importance of designing robust mental health systems.
We tackle the harsh reality that jails and hospitals have become the default mental health care providers in the United States. Alarming statistics underscore the necessity for systemic change as incarceration rates surpass those receiving necessary psychiatric care. Through our discussion, you'll gain insights into the prolonged impact of suicide on survivors and their families, the dire need for social support networks, and the challenges that come with postvention suicide support.
Learn about how we can better support individuals in crisis and the systemic shortcomings that need addressing, including the critical need for long-term investment in mental health care.
- Call or text 988, a 24/7, free, and confidential support for people in distress.
Hudson Harris is passionate about solving complex social issues. As a strategic systems builder, he has deep expertise in designing behavioral health continuums of care, community support services, diversion programs, and suicide prevention efforts. At Deloitte, Hudson’s work includes redesigning behavioral health systems of care at the state/local level, developing sustainable homeless strategies, and innovating new approaches to treatment and funding for behavioral health. Prior to Deloitte, he worked for San Diego County as a Population Health Strategist in behavioral health. He is a California attorney, holds an MBA in Marketing and an MA in International Business. He is the Chair of the board for the American Association of Suicidology and serves on the Board for Six Feet Over.
You can learn more about Harris on Instagram and you can email him at: hudson@pandon.com.
Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.
Producer / Editor: Neel Panji
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We need a champion. You look at the really big causes out there. Mental health has not been great at that. We've been great at getting celebrities. We've been great at getting attention, but when it really comes down to brass tacks, we need politicians who care about their constituents, and politicians that are willing to say we're going to put resources and investment into this now, because in five years, when this pays off, and I'm not here and I'm not elected and I'm just a citizen we have to build the mental health systems that our friends and family want to thrive in, not just what we turn to when there's a crisis.
Manya Chylinski:Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. Today is the last in our four-episode series for Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. My guest today is Hudson Harris. He is a strategic systems builder with expertise in designing behavioral health continuums of care, community support services and suicide prevention efforts. He is also the chair of the board for the American Association of Suicidology and he serves on the board for Six Feet Over. We talked about mental health systems of care, how that connects with suicide and suicidality and what we can do to make a difference. I think you're going to learn a lot, hi, hudson. I'm so excited to get to talk to you today. Thank you for being here. Exciting to be here. Thank you for having me. Before we get into the topic at hand question, I'd like to start with if you could have dinner with any historical figure, who would it be and why?
Hudson Harris:I'm a really big fan of disruptors. That's like when I look back at history. I really like the people who have completely changed the nature of things and, like you know, been the pebble in the wheel track, if you will. The only time my mom ever took me out of school through all of my K through 12, was to go meet Rosa Parks, and I think, yeah, I went to.
Hudson Harris:I was living in Amarillo, texas, and got to go meet her when she was still I think it was in the sixth grade or seventh grade. So I got to actually talk with her, shake her hand and I had no idea what I was doing. I was sixth or seventh grade, no appreciation for the opportunity. So I'd love to sit down with her. I've read a lot about her and she liked to make peanut butter pancakes and I think that, like as a former chef, I love to connect with people over food, so I'd love to have dinner with her. I'd also love to have dinner with Kamala Harris. To be perfectly honest, she's the first person to bring chili peppers to the White House, and I'm a humongous spicy fan. So I'll pick those two as disruptors for myself that I would love to be able to talk to.
Manya Chylinski:I think those are fabulous choices and I love that you actually met Rosa Parks. Even if you didn't understand fully at the time, that is so amazing. I had forgotten and was reminded recently that she was with us until not all that long ago. That she was with us until not all that long ago. So that's amazing. Well, thank you for sharing that. Well, we are going to be talking about system design today and how we can design the systems we live and work in to better support mental health, and you are part of our September series on the topic of Suicide for Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. So just to get us started thinking about this topic from where you sit, what is the cost on us as individuals, as a society, when we lose people to suicide?
Hudson Harris:It's really incalculable. I mean, I know that that's such a simple answer, but it really is incalculable. It's really tough for us to really calculate the impacts from a monetary perspective, from an impact perspective. What we do know is that we don't know a whole lot about the people who survived suicide, like the people who the lost survivors. We know that when people go through suicide attempts that it's incredibly traumatic for them, incredibly traumatic for the people around us. And then we know from the impact on the system of care having a really, really bad mental health day and having an attempt doesn't help you when you go to the hospital.
Hudson Harris:Everybody, I think listening, probably knows that jails and hospitals are the primary providers of mental health services in the United States.
Hudson Harris:I think the statistic I love the most is that in every county in the United States that has a county hospital and a county jail, there are more people incarcerated than there are in the psychiatric units receiving mental health services.
Hudson Harris:I mean it's pretty tremendous. We have a system that's built for not keeping people out, if that makes sense. So the impact of the suicide, I think, is really tremendous and I think it's something that we're very, as a society, we're not very good at reacting well to. We only react in the moment, we don't think forward, we don't think about how do we bring proactive health into these situations, one of the things that I talk about a lot.
Hudson Harris:If you have a suicide attempt and end up at the hospital, from a fiscal cost it's going to take about $30,000, give or take and we know that from a human cost on the back end, after you're discharged, that your highest risk of suicide is within three weeks of discharge and you will stay at your highest risk of suicide for six months, higher than vets, higher than any other population. And then your all causes risk of violence, substance abuse and re-hospitalization continues for 10 years higher. So the human impact is tremendous and this isn't even like the real qualitative, like how is the person doing? This is just like the statistics behind it, but it's tremendous.
Manya Chylinski:Wow, I didn't realize the continued risk after an attempt.
Hudson Harris:It's called the iatrogenic effect. The treatment is worse than the underlying condition. So by sending someone to the hospital to get treatment for behavioral health, or if they go to jail and they get treatment, all of their risks are elevated tremendously. A really long period of time Wow, their risks are elevated tremendously a really long period of time.
Manya Chylinski:Wow, now you mentioned jail, and am I remembering right that suicide used to be, or?
Hudson Harris:maybe still is in some places illegal. Yeah, it's really interesting. I think one of the I think the benefits of my perspective doing suicide care and response kind of all over the country is I get to see the various approaches. You know, in Texas they have medical examiners, justice of the pieces and coroners, all of whom approach suicide very, very differently. There are some counties in Texas that have no suicides.
Hudson Harris:Do we really think that's the truth or do we think that that's just because people don't report it, because it's still culturally taboo in some areas to say that that's what happened, and so it's one of those things that we don't really have a good handle on just how bad the problem is. And having been in this field now for 10 years and seeing the numbers continue to climb, I really don't believe it's because we aren't reaching people. It's because more people are getting worse and worse in their own head, and then the tools and the things that we can use to help people we're not investing in. So the demand is increasing because everything has been really challenging the past few years for everybody, but we're not really getting into the heart of it and we don't really know how bad that problem is because we don't report Right.
Manya Chylinski:And it certainly isn't going to help to be in one of the worst moments of your life decide that this is what you want to do, survive and then somehow be having to deal with the justice system because what you've done is wow.
Hudson Harris:Well, if you really want to get thrown for it, this is another one. I'm on the board of an organization called Six Feet Over. We do postvention suicide support. So, friends and state, except for Kansas and parts of Michigan, you will be responsible for the biohazard remediation. Oh yeah, it's pretty incredible. So the organization that I'm with, we help people with the biohazard remediation and cleanup, funerary costs, lost wages, all of these things. That's the only kind of program in the country that does that. And we just expanded into Kansas as a state benefit. But you think about that, the only kind of program in the country that does that. And we just expanded into Kansas as a state benefit, but you think about that, the only one in the entire country that helps people after a suicide law. So it's not just the people that have the attempt, it's also the people that are around them. And then we know, but we don't know how bad. But there's also effects of like there could be cluster impacts, there could be other things. Those individuals need support, right, there could be other things.
Manya Chylinski:Those individuals need support. Right, because you're not only dealing with the death of a loved one. You're dealing with a different kind of death and many more complex emotions surrounding it.
Hudson Harris:I'm sure, and socially isolating. You don't bring lasagnas to a suicide attempt, but you should, yeah that's a good point, and lasagna is the go-to dish.
Manya Chylinski:So yeah, absolutely so. You mentioned socially isolating for the family and the loved ones. What role does social support play in this whole system that we're talking?
Hudson Harris:about. So I want to just to quickly clarify for listeners. So I'm not a mental health professional, but what I do is work in the systems of care, with doctors, with clinicians, and help to like design, kind of like how it works better. So I just want to say that from the beginning, that that's not my. Specific is that the ability to connect to someone, the ability to feel heard, the ability to feel seen, can really help stabilize people and help them feel better. There are some people who will be chronically suicidal. There's a lot of people who will not be, and that it's a long-term solution to a short-term problem. And so those types of social networks, making people feel connected, making people feel like they belong, these are some of the core underpinnings of protective factors, so things that keep people feeling safe and wanted.
Manya Chylinski:It's really important and even the most well-adjusted and people among us were struggling with that. That must have been very difficult in terms of the realm of thinking about and dealing with suicide.
Hudson Harris:Yeah, the suicide rates during the pandemic by and large went up. You think about some of the core things that keep us safe, like our sense of belonging, our usefulness, perceived burdensomeness and all of those things during the pandemic were upended. Everybody was cut off from everybody else. People that normally would have an escape out of their house if they had a bad living situation suddenly didn't. And so I was working at a 211 at the time, during the start of COVID, as part of their command staff and the things that we were surprised at the time the start of COVID as part of their command staff, and the things that we were surprised at the time. But in retrospect makes sense domestic violence, suicide, mental health, all of those things. There was an immediate worsening as people were basically trapped and so that's going to be a really challenging time to go back and study, but people are doing it.
Manya Chylinski:It's yeah, yeah, absolutely so. When, especially when someone well-known dies by suicide, I think the media portrayals can be difficult, I think the language is changing, but I think it sometimes sensationalizes suicide and I'd love to get your perspective on that sensationalizes suicide and I'd love to get your perspective on that.
Hudson Harris:Yeah, I would like to say that we don't really know. We society tried trigger warnings. Trigger warnings didn't really seem to be effective. It actually looked as it might've had an opposite effect. It might've actually slightly increased suicidality, but there's other studies that show different.
Hudson Harris:I think it's really tough. We know that glorifying suicide is not a good thing. We know that making it glamorous or something that's really something that would attract people to is not a good thing, and we also know that clusters exist. Clusters exist where one person will die by suicide and then several other people will take their lives around them. I've seen it. It can happen in high schools, colleges, workplaces.
Hudson Harris:The psychology of suicide is incredibly complex. I had a researcher describe it to me as multivariate and nonlinear, which really means there's a lot of stuff that goes into a thing that doesn't make a line, and then that's how we get there, and so I think it's really tough to know what will and won't help. I will say I have two sons and because of my work, I have talked about suicide with them before and they know that that's like part of my job. They know that like that's what I do as a part of the American association of suicidology and I really worried about whether that exposure would be something that was harmful to them and I had people actually talk to me about it and I think that the thing that I found is that Open dialogue and discussion is the best path, at least for my children.
Hudson Harris:But, like, I think that honest dialogue and discussions about what happened really helps people kind of like navigate and understand and not sensationalize. But we live in like a pop culture society that just wants the soundbite and I will tell you, the most common questions I get in interviews is what was the pop culture icon that died by suicide that impacted you the most? That's like 99 times out of 100. Yeah, there's almost like a voyeur aspect to it. So I think it's complex. I think the more we talk about it in regular terms, the less sensational it will be. Mm-hmm.
Manya Chylinski:Well, you mentioned that voyeuristic aspect of it and I feel like we either don't talk about it at all or we talk about it in that way sort of voyeuristic and ooh what happened. And I can only imagine that's coming from a place of fear of talking about the topic. I know when I decided to do this series, I really had to think about can I talk about this topic? And it's been an education, because there are still times when I feel this is just such a difficult topic to talk about and saying the word sometimes still scares me.
Hudson Harris:Yeah, it's scary. I always tell my sons you know, your brain's job is not to make you happy, it's to keep you safe. Yes, and I tell you, my oldest started with a new therapist and we went in there and met with her the first time and she goes do you know what your brain's job? And he just lit up because he was so excited to be. Like, it's not to keep me safe. So I think that our brains are really good at threat detection and I think, if you look at the things that our brain is really good at, if it sees something that is a threat and that can be a method that could be a horror movie, it could be whatever it is our brains will naturally just say okay, what are all the possible permutations, what are the things I have to watch out for? Like, that's what our brain does threat detection. So I think that's some of it.
Hudson Harris:I think there's a desire to sometimes just think about it and the thing is is that divergent and suicidal thoughts are incredibly common. Every single person you've ever met in your entire life has had suicidal thoughts. It's a normal part of living. It's a normal like wondering about our own end, wondering about what comes next, like all of those things are very normal and like the more we normalize and talk about them, the better.
Hudson Harris:What I don't know how to do is balance between normalizing and promoting, and that's like one of the hard is like how, when does that cross over? And I don't know, and I don't know, I don't. I don't even know how to begin that discussion. It's out of my, out of my wheelhouse. But I feel like it's one of those things that it's worth exploring, because when I've given talks on suicide and I've had parents come up to me and talk to me about what it was like to feel like someone understood what they went through, or I've had kids come up and talk to me, it's really powerful. It's super emotional and vulnerable. That's okay. I mean, that's what we're here for. We're here to be vulnerable and emotional with people and connect.
Manya Chylinski:Right, I know sometimes we don't want to do the hard things, though, yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that basically everyone has had these thoughts. At the beginning of the pandemic, I had suicidal thoughts and they scared me because I thought, well, this isn't, I don't want to do that, that's not my path. Why is this thought here? And, yeah, it was very scary and I think it's really critical, as you say, to normalize it and understand that we all have those thoughts and having those thoughts doesn't mean there's something wrong with you.
Hudson Harris:Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, our brains are just computers and, like our sense of self, our ego, whatever you want to call it, our individual personality is not our brain, but we conflate the two very often. And so our brain's job is threat detection, and it's just always going to do that. It's just always going to look for the threats. It's just always going to be like I wonder if that log rolled off the truck and smashed into my car, if I could avoid it, like it to my car, if I could avoid it. It's always going to do those things. So, separating just a little bit to say I can have these thoughts and they aren't me. Yes, it's important, but if we taboo them, if we run away from them, if we always talk about how scary they are, all that does is push people more towards extreme levels of thinking. It's just like the kids. If you have a super strict parent or a super lax parent, the kid's always going to go the opposite direction if you're anything but the middle to them.
Manya Chylinski:Yeah, you work in system design and you think about the whole system and behavioral health and how can we fix this. So are there some policy changes that you think could help us address this issue?
Hudson Harris:Yeah, I think at the very beginning we have to decide that we want a system of care that's proactive and not reactive. We have, I mean, going all the way back. If you want a good read, go back and look at the Reagan and JFK years when they de-institutionalized America and it pushed us into, I don't know, 30 years or so. Mental health isn't real. It's not a real science Like it, just kind of you know, you look or so. Mental health isn't real. It's not a real science. You look at things like HIPAA and high tech in the late 90s that brought billions $30 billion into the EHR field. Behavioral health and psychiatric inpatient providers and substance abuse providers were excluded. You have an entire field of our medical complex that was not included in that. Wow.
Hudson Harris:We as a society have made conscious decisions towards not promoting the integration of mental health care into our communities and we need to, and we need to look at it from a perspective of mental health. Providers should be representative of the people they serve. We have a dramatically over white provider population in the United States and it's not getting better. We have to really look at what is the things that communities need at the ground level from a proactive health perspective and then say how do we accomplish those things with resources and funding? Because I can tell you, we do know what doesn't work and, like I will stamp my name on this, we do know that the method of funding mental health right now is an abject failure, full stop. We do cost basis, one-year contracts, cost plus optional one-year renewals. All of these things mean that we are never investing in our mental health care system. And if we don't have a place to invest in our proactive mental health care system, what are we going to do? We need more beds, we need more jails and I will tell you.
Hudson Harris:You look at things like the Austin State Hospital redesign, where they went and they did the first, I would say, enterprise level research on how many new beds they needed for their part of Texas. So Texas State Hospital for listeners is Texas is cut into thirds. This is the Austin State Hospital district, like the bottom third of the state. The University of Texas opened the first new medical school, first D1 medical school, in like the past 50 years and part of it they created the design and health program. But at Del Met, where they brought in human-centered design executives to help run a medical school, because it's not enough to treat, you have to design, you have to know how these things work. And they did a multi-year, multi-million dollar study. Do you know how many new beds they recommended for that part of Texas? Zero, wow. And I will tell you, having worked in communities coast to coast and some out of this.
Hudson Harris:There are a lot of places that don't need new beds, but what they do need is proactive investment into their healthcare system. That's not reactive, because what we do is that anytime there's something wrong, give more money to the cops, give more money to the police, give more money to the hospitals those types of things when we have a library of evidence-based practices that we know work that we know will actually impact people in randomized clinical trials. Just before the pandemic, this's the last one of the studies that I saw like this. They did a survey of all of the behavioral health visits to emergency rooms across the country and fewer than one out of three received evidence-based practices. That would be like going to the ED with a broken ankle and having someone go. You know what. I wonder if we just kind of left it at an angle, if that would be okay. Yes, but you know we can do these things and we can do hard things Like.
Hudson Harris:I've been a part of truly transformational efforts. I was part of an 1115 mental health jail diversion program in Texas where we ended up helping them close a jail pod. We diverted sufficient number of people away Was part of a program we were able to bring down inpatient bed days by 50% in six months for one of the largest metro areas in the country not with crazy amounts of system change Like that last one. We had one common platform where we did an assessment of every individual that walked into an ED or into a jail with the same platform and then coordinated care Remarkable, crazy stuff. We have the tools, we have the abilities, we have the abilities, we have the evidence-based practices, but we don't invest. That's the system design piece.
Manya Chylinski:Yeah, why aren't we investing? What's the barrier?
Hudson Harris:Have you ever seen somebody try and say that they want to reduce funding to police or reduce funding to critical infrastructure or reduce funding to a local hospital or anything like that? We are very, very good at listening to the loudest voices in the room, but we've got decades of over-investing into police and hospital responses and this is what we get. So we have to make the choice. We have to make the choice that we're going to set aside. Programs like the Certified Community Behavioral Health Clinics are incredible steps and, like it's shown, the mental health field is on the way and ready to adapt to change. But we need to give mental health providers the ability to innovate, the ability to really work with their staff and build teams and engage with the community, and the changes can happen so rapidly.
Hudson Harris:I was talking with Douglas County, Kansas. They did a bond to build a new crisis center and it's a wonderful method of financing, one of my favorite ways to approach it. But I think the important thing I'd like to pass on is when that center opened. They set it up so that when the center opened, it made revenue, the revenue paid for the bond. When the bond is paid off, then it will pay for uninsured, but the really immediate impact was really transformative. They had a gentleman who had been in jail eight out of the past 10 years for not real charges but getting picked up for homeless, vagrancy et cetera. After the crisis center opened he had not been in jail in four months, which was the longest he had gone and nobody was sure how long. They went back and looked at the ED visitors for that emergency room that were behavioral health calls. The prior year. 80% of the people did not return the following year when the crisis center opened because they were getting community-based proactive care. 80%, Wow.
Manya Chylinski:That is amazing. It seems like some people have the will to make these changes.
Hudson Harris:We just don't have it on the larger scale great at getting attention, but when it really comes down to brass tacks, we need politicians who care about their constituents, and politicians that are willing to say we're going to put resources and investment into this now, because in five years, when this pays off, and I'm not here and I'm not elected and I'm just a citizen we have to build the mental health systems that our friends and family want to thrive in, not just the ones that we turn to when there's a crisis.
Manya Chylinski:Yes, we do have. Just generally, people have a hard time thinking about doing something right now that's going to benefit you or me five years from now, versus what's going to benefit me this afternoon or tomorrow. It requires that forward thinking that people might feel they don't have the luxury to have.
Hudson Harris:See, I think that what I have learned is that a lot of times it's not really so much a matter of the forward thinking as it is of storytelling, and I think that that's where a lot of people fall down is. I think what I really try and work with people on is telling purple stories, and so when I go into communities or I work with them, I will tell the fiscal side of things if that's the room first, and then I will tell the human side of things, and if it's the other way around, I will flip it. But I think what I have learned about behavioral health is that it has been so underutilized and under-resourced for so long. There is just a mountain of low-hanging fruit that we can go after, and the low-hanging fruit is of such impact that you can have impacts like I described 50% bed reduction in inpatient days in six months Unbelievable. The jail diversion program I told you about we brought down average daily jail population for mental health individuals by 22%. I mean huge impacts. Yeah, all it took was consistent, evidence-based approach that was well-funded. Having just finished up a couple of really big assessments, I will tell you dozens and dozens of interviews.
Hudson Harris:The most common themes keep coming out. If everybody wants to get a free system analysis report out of their system of care, here it is Coordinate your care, extend contracts so that they aren't one-year cost basis pardon my French bullshit and invest in the providers and they will invest in you. But providers won't invest in their own staff as much as they could. They won't invest in their own technology, their own procedures, their buildings if their contract could be canceled next week. And this doesn't mean we need to give 10 or 20-year contracts whatever. But you look at the things that stabilize mental health organizations, really stabilize it, and a lot of times it's a building, a lot of times it's like a physical space. The Miami Center for Mental Health and Recovery absolutely wonderful organization. Just reading through some of the materials there with the advocate program, go check them out. The county of I believe it's Miami-Dade did a hundred-year lease for a dollar a year to the advocate program to give them a full-scale jail diversion center.
Hudson Harris:And now you have your justice, your public defender, your district attorney, you've got a barber, you've got a primary care, you've got all sorts of services that are there to help people get back on their feet. I think at the real root of it is that it's much easier when you're having a good day to be like if I was having a bad. Know, I think at the real root of it is that it's much easier when you're having a good day to be like if I was having a bad day, I'd know what to do. And it's just not true and sometimes you need someone to say, hey, come on in, let's get you a haircut, let's talk to your public defender, let's get you a release.
Hudson Harris:One of the things that has just blown my mind is in working in mental health, jail diversion is that it's one of those fields where you can really impact lives. I mean tremendously impact lives, and what I'm about to share is anecdotal from the own work and research I've done, but the results were pretty incredible. From a large metro area, we found that if we could keep someone from spending the night in jail so if they came in and they were out before, basically the judge in that area closed, which was pretty late, like eight or nine o'clock at night. But we had to be able to get someone in by about six or seven to have a few hours to be able to get through everything, to get a pretrial release. So the program was geared towards identification of individuals with mental health conditions in jail identify them, connect with them, get consent to do an evaluation, create a treatment plan and the judge says you follow this treatment plan, you can be released and get community care. And this was the amazing thing If we could keep people from spending the night in jail.
Hudson Harris:So if you do spend the night in jail, you have what's called your recidivism rate, one of those things we talked about at the beginning of the show. The average recidivism rate for an individual who spent the night in jail was 67% for six months. That meant that 67% of the individuals controlling for all the other demographics were going to be back in six months. And if we could keep someone from spending the night in jail, their risk was baseline. Wow, the exact same individuals and their odds of going to jail, their job loss, their family loss, their property loss all of those things we prevented. And so we can do big things. We can change things really dramatically with small little things. It just takes that consistency of approach and that desire to explore.
Manya Chylinski:Wow, hudson, this is so fascinating and I could talk to you for many, many more hours to dive deep into some of these topics, but we are at the end of our time. Can you let our listeners know how they can reach you and learn more about you and your work?
Hudson Harris:Yeah, absolutely. Probably the easiest way to reach me is on Instagram, at Mental Strategy, and you can message me there. You can also email me, hudson, at Pandon P-A-N-D-O-Ncom. That's just my personal email.
Manya Chylinski:Excellent. We'll put that in the show notes so people can get in touch with you. And Hudson, thank you for talking with us today and thank you for the incredible work that you're doing.
Hudson Harris:Thank you, it's really exciting to be able to share.
Manya Chylinski:Thank you for listening. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did. So if you'd like to learn more about me, maa Chylinski, I work with organizations to help understand how to create environments where people can thrive after difficult life experiences, and I do this through talks and consulting. I'm a survivor of mass violence and I use my experience to help leaders learn about resiliency, compassion and trauma-sensitive leadership To build strategies to enable teams to thrive and be engaged amidst difficulty and turmoil. If this is something you want to learn more about, visit my website, Chylinski, or email me at manya at Chylinski, or stop by my social media on LinkedIn and Twitter. Thanks so much.
