How Smart Is Your Dog? Exploring Canine Intelligence with Jennifer S. Holland

Unlock the Secrets of Canine Intelligence with Jennifer S. Holland

Ever wonder how smart your dog really is? In this episode, Jennifer S. Holland, New York Times bestselling author of Dog Smart: Life-Changing Lessons in Canine Intelligence, takes us on a journey into the amazing world of canine intelligence. From their incredible sense of smell to how they adapt to life with humans and their individual pet parent's lifestyle, you'll gain a new perspective on how dogs think and communicate.

Key Takeaways:

• How dogs use their noses: Discover the powerful sense of smell that guides your dog’s world [00:01].
• Myth-busting breed intelligence: Surprising stories about dogs breaking stereotypes [00:10].
• Body language secrets: Learn to read your dog's subtle cues [00:20].
• The impact of life changes: What moves and new routines do to dog behavior [00:30].
• Early training tips: Starting early is crucial for building a strong bond [00:40].

Jennifer also dives into the responsibilities of dog ownership, the importance of training, and how to respect your dog’s natural instincts while ensuring they thrive in a human environment.

Additional Resources:

• Purchase Dog Smart: https://www.jenniferhollandwriter.com/books/dog-smart-life-changing-lessons-in-canine-intelligence/
• Connect with Jennifer S. Holland: www.jenniferhollandwriter.com

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For more insights on understanding your dog’s behavior, check out our related episodes on "Debunking Separation Anxiety" and "The Top 5 Annoying Dog Behaviors and How to Fix Them" and many more at www.starlightpettalk.com/episodes.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Unveiling Canine Intelligence
• 8:03 Exploring Dog Intelligence and Adaptability
• 21:15 Understanding Canine Enrichment and Behaviors
• 30:25 Bond Between Humans and Dogs
• 35:13 Navigating Dog Ownership Expectations

Transcript

Amy Castro: 0:00

Curious about what makes dogs so incredibly smart. Well, join us as we chat with Jennifer S Holland, new York Times bestselling author and acclaimed journalist. Her latest book, dog Smart Life-Changing Lessons in Canine Intelligence, explores the surprising ways that our furry friends use their intelligence to connect with us and to thrive and survive. In this episode, you'll discover how dogs think, learn and why they're truly more than just our best friends. Stay tuned You're listening to Starlight Pet Talk, a podcast for pet parents who want the best pet care advice from cat experts, dog trainers, veterinarians and other top pet professionals who will help you live your very best life with your pets. Welcome to the show. I'm your host, amy Castro, and today I am delighted to have Jennifer S Holland with us. Jennifer is a distinguished journalist, new York Times bestselling author, and she's known for her insightful work with National Geographic and other, like primo, top publications, so I'm very honored to have her here today. Her latest book, though, is right up my alley, and I'm so glad to be able to share some information about it with all of you. It's called Dog Smart Life-Changing Lessons in Canine Intelligence, and the book offers a, I think, completely compelling exploration into the incredible way our dogs understand and interact with the world that they live in. In Dog Smart, jennifer combines and I was just telling her this before we started the recording is that I love her combination of lots of research and facts that back up what she says and, for people who love to have that evidence, but just some fantastic stories in the book that are just going to drag you in that basically will reveal the many, many ways that our dogs are intelligent beyond what I think anybody listening right at the second can possibly imagine. So we're going to discuss the fascinating insights she's uncovered about how dogs think, how they learn and how they connect with their human companions, and so I'm so excited to dive in and hear more about Jennifer's experience and findings. So let's go ahead and get started.

Amy Castro: 2:03

Jennifer, welcome to the show.

Jennifer S. Holland: 2:05

Thank you. That was very, very kind and generous intro. I appreciate that.

Amy Castro: 2:09

Hey, it's well-deserved. You're like a superstar as far as I'm concerned.

Jennifer S. Holland: 2:14

I need a cape.

Amy Castro: 2:16

Yeah, but you're a real person too. But I so appreciate having written a book that is nowhere near as in-depth or evidentiary. Is the time that you put into, you know, visiting with researchers, visiting with regular people to bring those stories, and I think people are just going to love it. What motivated you to work that hard to put this book together? You know what was your inspiration? To really better understand and to share with us canine intelligence.

Jennifer S. Holland: 2:43

You know, a lot of my writing, especially for National Geographic, has been sort of out in the wild and you know the animals that we think of as living very apart from us, but one of my favorite animals has always been dogs. I've grown up with all kinds of pets, but dogs being one that have been ever present. And you know, I just I started thinking about we joke around about what a dumb dog or. You know, we think about our dogs, as you know, if they respond to our commands, then that's a really smart dog. And I thought you know, isn't there? There's got to be more to that. It can't just be that this is a different species from us and they have their own way of existing in the world. And let's explore. You know, what does intelligence mean if you are not a human being? And and trying to give them credit for all the natural ways that they are particularly smart.

Amy Castro: 3:35

I mean that's such a huge point. I see it all the time as somebody that adopts out a lot of pets, and people do make these judgments and I'm thinking what are they not seeing? Or what are they seeing that I didn't see? And it so much has to do with perspective. It's kind of like you know, just an idea that came to my head just as you were saying.

Amy Castro: 3:51

That is, you know, it's kind of like the difference between somebody who might be great with their hands and they can build beautiful furniture and somebody else who might be great with math and somebody else who might be great at problem solving. It's using those different levels of skills, and the problem is with our dogs is that we try to take whatever we decide is intelligence like maybe it's the math thing and we think, okay, you know, they must not be very bright because they can't do this one thing that I use to define intelligence, and I'm so glad that this book will open people up to the many, many other levels of intelligence and ways that they demonstrate their intelligence that you may not even be aware of and it's happening every single day.

Jennifer S. Holland: 4:31

Yeah, and I think you know the idea of multiple intelligences really does come out of human psychology and the idea that we're we're missing a lot of skill and just amazing capability out there. If we are narrow in our definition of intelligence, and especially with children, you know, being broader with that definition can open up lots of opportunities for perfectly intelligent kids that just have a different kind of smarts and need to apply that in their lives.

Amy Castro: 5:00

Yeah, that's such a good point. So what were some of the most surprising findings? Like I know, I was obsessed with all of the stuff about dogs' noses and how those work, because I think people sometimes don't like what dogs do with their, like the butt sniffing and things like that. You know people are always trying to stop them from using their primary tool for exploring the world. But what were your big surprises?

Jennifer S. Holland: 5:24

What were your big surprises? Definitely the, you know. I knew their noses were amazing, but I think that getting into that a little bit more, it did surprise me just how incredibly different their world is. As nose smart, you know, nose intelligent, nose, using animals and just trying to get a sense of what that looks like and to quantify that and that, you know, scientists say they we may not even have the tools yet the technologies to really define just how sensitive the nose is for the dog.

Jennifer S. Holland: 5:53

But also I was surprised by the fact that you know there are probably close to a billion dogs on Earth and the vast majority of those animals are not the dogs that we think of. These aren't the pets living in our living rooms and on our couches. These are the dogs living at the edges of human society around the world. I think the statistic was something like 85% are free roaming animals and each individual dog might not be thriving, but if you think as a species, they're thriving, obviously just by their numbers and the fact that they live everywhere that humans live and that they have adapted to this niche. There's an incredible amount of adaptive intelligence underlying all of what dogs do, whether they live at home or live out in so-called wild. So that was kind of a neat thing to rethink and to kind of give them credit for.

Amy Castro: 6:47

Right, yeah, because we think about dogs as being so. You know the extremes of how dogs live. When you think about the dogs that basically spend their entire lives, generations, on the streets with very little human taking an active role in their care, and then the pampered pets whose feet have never touched concrete or grass because they get carried around or ridden around in a stroller and it's like, hmm, that is such a huge diverse difference between those dogs. So can you give people for people who have not read the book kind of an idea of the ranges, like the nose being one thing? I mean, I think we kind of know dogs have better eyesight.

Amy Castro: 7:26

I was fascinated about the hearing, the example that was in the book about the. You know a piano having 88 keys and dogs could hear. I don't know if it was 25 or 50, but it was like a lot more keys that we can't even like beyond the range of human hearing, which made me wonder like is that why my dogs bark all the time when there's not a darn thing happening? Because they're hearing something happening two miles away.

Jennifer S. Holland: 7:47

Yeah, I think that's exactly it is is we don't really fully grasp what that world is like for their senses and I think all of their senses are part of this book, because it's just fascinating to look at those and really think about what that means for their experience of the world.

Jennifer S. Holland: 8:03

So olfactory intelligence is a big part of the book, but I also wanted to consider, as I mentioned, adaptive intelligence is kind of the broader underlying theme.

Jennifer S. Holland: 8:12

But I considered their emotional intelligence, I considered their social, huge social intelligence, particularly their ability to communicate in really subtle and detailed ways that we often misread or don't try to read properly. You know the fact that dogs can convey what they need and want in ways that we barely notice. But if you start to focus on the body language and the changes in the kind of bark and where the tail, the way the tail is wagging, just so many different things come together to send a message that we often miss because we're very focused on teaching them our language rather than kind of learning their language, and so that's sort of another aspect of intelligence I talk about kind of how they learn what we know about that aspect of their smarts. So it's really I try to get around all of the different ideas of what makes a dog a dog and how different kinds of intelligences have created this animal that we know and love so much.

Amy Castro: 9:14

Yeah, I think that adaptive piece is so subtle that people can be missing that. Is there a particular story related to that that you would want to share?

Jennifer S. Holland: 9:22

Yeah, I think I mean one really. I think really interesting ways that dogs have adapted is, I mean genetically, they have changed over time in order to improve, in a way, their relationship with us and to get more out of us, I mean frankly. And so scientists are able to really look at how that happened over the course of domestication and the different ways that dogs made choices, you know, to tolerate humans. I mean, that was sort of their first step toward being what they are today, which is, you know, as I said, very successful species. And that tolerance of humans is very different than anything you would see in wolves, for example. Even if wolves are raised by humans and cared for and tended to, they still, you know, are wary of humans, they still are going to attack and, you know, maim a human if they don't recognize the human. And dogs are just adapted over time to look to us for help, to, you know, to take advantage of all the things we have to offer, and that's kind of the key in my mind, to all of their success.

Amy Castro: 10:31

So, as far as dog intelligence, you know, the first thing that came to mind when I saw the title of the book is well, first of all, it got me thinking a little broader. But when people think about dog intelligence, I think oftentimes it's this idea of there are smart dogs and there are not smart dogs, and there's listicles out there that basically rank you know the dumbest dogs and you know top 10 dumbest dogs, top 10 smartest dogs. Did you find breed correlation in your research or is it dependent on what intelligence you're focusing on, what type of intelligence?

Jennifer S. Holland: 11:03

I mean, I think breed is really. It's important in that you know if you have a line of dogs that have similar genetics, you're going to have tendencies in certain directions, so you're going to have you know. In general, I think it's very fair to say Border Collies are very smart in certain ways. They're very attentive, they want to get it right. You know they're going to keep trying. They're very focused on their human and realizing the importance of you know sort of that, that connection. They are the ones that you always hear about learning all kinds of words for all kinds of items. So I think there is truth in that.

Jennifer S. Holland: 11:38

But my shtick is sort of breed is is a piece of it, but the dogs are individuals, always of course, and that if you give dogs opportunities outside of what you think of as their normal intelligence realm or their normal skills, you sometimes find that, wow, I never would have thought that this breed would ever be. You know good at that. And one case is you know pugs as sniffer dogs. There was a study comparing German shepherds and pugs in sniffer tasks and you know they certainly expected that the German shepherds would just, you know, beat them out of the park and the pugs were so committed and so curious and interested and wanted to do this task, and they actually did better at the sniffer tasks, and so I think there's an issue of opportunity that is sometimes lost in deciding whether a dog is smart or not and, as you say, depending on what kind of intelligence you're thinking about, you're going to have a huge range and individual dogs are always going to be different. You're not going to find one thing that is absolutely true across a breed.

Amy Castro: 12:48

Right, yeah, that is such a huge factor and I think people get very swayed by a stereotype of a breed or maybe you know kind of an overriding characteristic or what's. You know what's the popular thing? I mean, one of the things that I always try to stress on this show is fit, you know, and it's like when you pick a dog, whatever you pick, but focusing on dogs obviously today is you have to know what you know. What are you looking for that animal to be able to do for you, with you? Without you, what kind of lifestyle do you live? What kind of you know? All of these things kind of feed into it, instead of just picking what the breed of the day is based on. You know what celebrities have or what movie has come out that has made some dog wildly popular.

Amy Castro: 13:30

I always cringe when I see a dog movie come out because it's like, oh good Lord, everybody does not need to go out and get a Chihuahua or a Belgian Malinois or whatever it might be. You know, a St Bernard. It's kind of scary how people make, how people make their decisions about their, about their pets, and then not taking in the individual considerations. So how did you, like I said, you know, I love the balance of the statistics and the obvious extensive research that you did with the stories. What made you decide to go that way and how did you find that? Because it seems like just the right balance. It's like, you know, you're getting the statistical and then there's a story that backs that up and it's just kind of a nice back and forth, at least as a listener, because I have it on audio and also writing jumping back and forth.

Jennifer S. Holland: 14:13

Yeah, it's, you know that's.

Jennifer S. Holland: 14:14

I appreciate you saying that, because for me that's kind of the best way always to to present information is to you know, if there is sciencey stuff that needs to be presented, you need to soften that, you need to balance that out with something that keeps people going, because it is a little information overload otherwise, and the more you can bring it back to the dog, the favorite thing that we're all reading for, the more people are going to stick with it and hopefully glean actually some of that information, actually some of that information.

Jennifer S. Holland: 14:48

But I just, for me, the personal stuff, the getting into the field with dogs, the talking to people, all of that is what's so wonderful about the process. You know, getting the facts and figures is interesting, but that is certainly not the best part of the writing process for me, and so for me it was probably a matter of oh wait, I probably should put some more science in this. It can't just be cool stories of dogs, because you know, my preference is always to focus on the people and the animals directly and tell their stories.

Amy Castro: 15:15

Right. Right, I know that you did some stuff like. One of the stories that I particularly honed in on was this story of a family where the father had diabetes and it really impacted not just his life but the entire family's life. And then they got a medical dog and you had mentioned talking to them via Zoom, but you also traveled all over the place. Are there particular experiences or a story that you could share about someplace you went or somebody you met, a dog you met? That just really jumps out at you as like that was a life-changing experience for me.

Jennifer S. Holland: 15:46

Yeah, yeah, and I have to. I should say that you know this. A lot of my reporting was happening during the pandemic, and so my my original list of things I was going to do had to keep getting a little bit shorter, a little bit shorter. But people were so generous I mean, we'd all know dog people are some of the best people and they really went out of their way to make it work despite all of the circumstances. And so I still did quite a bit of field work. It was all in the States. So that was a little bit of a change, because initially I thought I would expand out, but ultimately I think that was probably best. Or this book would have been a doorstop of a book, because it would have been just too much. But yeah, I had a lot of wonderful experience.

Jennifer S. Holland: 16:24

One that I get into quite a bit is spending time at the Seeing Eye in New Jersey, where they were very generous to let me come and observe training for these dogs and to meet some of the dogs to go out, you know, during part of the training, where they're literally on the street with these dogs with the harness on them, teaching them how to do what they do protect their person, get their person to where they need to go, but also, really importantly, to know when to refuse a command because they know something that the person doesn't know.

Jennifer S. Holland: 16:55

So this concept I hadn't, really wasn't familiar with, called intelligent disobedience, where the dog has to know.

Jennifer S. Holland: 17:02

You know, usually if the person is giving me the forward command, I'm going to do it, but hey, there's this branch hanging down and I need to sidestep that and so, or you know, there's a bike coming around the corner that the person isn't aware of and I have to know that it's okay for me to refuse in this case. And to me that was a really remarkable kind of you know mental gymnastics that these dogs have to do. That I hadn't considered and how you know that's something that they would have to do as assistance dogs with Alzheimer's patients, which is a relatively new area where they're trying to train dogs to assist. You know, talk about an inconsistent partner. You know, potentially somebody who's can be suddenly angry or suddenly, you know giving false information, or you just don't really know, and how this dog navigates that and still makes the best choices for that person. I find that incredible to me and I can't wait to see how that all goes as they advance that.

Amy Castro: 18:02

Yeah, it's amazing the things that people are working on and we actually did a whole episode. Well, we've done a couple of episodes that have involved a friend of mine, donna Mack, who has a seeing eye dog named Wella, and you know, one was about how false assistance dogs really hurt everybody who really needs one. That was a whole other thing. And then we did one on guide dog training and just things that I just kind of thought, okay, the dog knows how to get to the store, it's like you have to teach them no duh.

Amy Castro: 18:30

I know they smell the groceries. They smell yeah, they smell the beef, they're going to the beef. But I love the the fact that you not only observed it, but did you not try that out too with a?

Jennifer S. Holland: 18:42

guide dog. That was very brave, Indeed. Yeah, it's a lot of trust there it was. That was actually I forgot that was the point of what I was getting to. So, yeah, they kindly allowed me to experience a little bit of what that's like to grab onto that harness and to completely trust this animal to do, you know, take you where you need to go without banging into anything or tripping.

Jennifer S. Holland: 19:04

And you know, we were in New York and it was pretty crazy. It was, you know, a crowded street in Manhattan and I kind of got a little bit of a sense of what that's like. And it was powerful to experience it because you, first of all, this dog moved very fast. I expected we were going to sort of plot along so that I could be very tentative about it. And we were moving but I didn't bump into anything. We stopped at the crosswalk, you know, the dog did all the things it was supposed to do. That was a dog named Jesse, who appears in the book a few times, and a dog in training, you know, still kind of learning the ropes. But again, just to actually have that experience and then write about it rather than just talk to somebody who can say this is what it's like. That was important to me for making the book really readable and accessible.

Amy Castro: 19:50

Right, and I know that you talked about your own dog in the book. I don't remember the dog's name, but I remember it was a Jindo.

Jennifer S. Holland: 19:57

Yes, I do have a Jindo Getty is his name.

Amy Castro: 20:00

Okay, does the experience of having you know well all of your experiences and putting this book together does it? How has that changed how you look at your own dog?

Jennifer S. Holland: 20:09

A lot actually we have two and they're very, very different personalities. A Jindo for anyone who doesn't know Jindos, they're not for everyone, you know, they're not going to be your cuddly loves everybody kind of dog, very high prey, drive, very smart, not easy to train, all the things. But we've had a couple of them and I will say, regarding the question of is it a breed thing? I mean our first Jindo and this Jindo are very different beasts in many, many ways in terms of personality. But you know, kind of watching our current two dogs navigating one another, they have sort of a touchy relationship a little bit, because the Jindo is sort of the alpha in the house and has made that clear.

Jennifer S. Holland: 20:53

And my other dog, which is a Kaiken it's a Japanese breed and I've really learned to observe how he behaves, who navigates those moods and does some very smart things to make sure he's getting what he wants the attention or the spot on the bed or whatever, just sort of observing that, the body language and the thinking process. And then, in other ways, I'm different with them in that I'm more, I think, more patient with them. I have a little less expectation of them understanding what I want. I appreciate that I didn't do a great job of training, and so a lot of the things that they don't do right is my fault, not their fault.

Amy Castro: 21:34

I'm the same way. My dogs are like the worst trained dogs.

Jennifer S. Holland: 21:37

It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing, but my husband kids me because he's like, well, you know dogs, you wrote a book about dogs and you can't get your own dog to X or Y but but but yeah, I think, and I just appreciate, you know, I think about their sensory experience more. I give them more time on walks to just sniff, you know, let them dig a little bit. If they want to dig, let them chew on things. Just give them more time to be dogs and to do things that normally I might pull back on the leash because you know, my tendency is to well, I don't want them to get hurt, I don't want them to, you know, and I think there's a balance there of letting dogs just do what's natural for them, which is good for them. It's good for their mental health, it's good for their intelligence and making sure, obviously, that they're safe and living within the confines of our manners and our human niche. So it's definitely changed my thinking around them and hopefully they appreciate it.

Amy Castro: 22:31

Yeah, yeah. And, like I had said, I'm not even 100% away through the books. I keep going back and listening to certain sections again because it's like it's just there's so much there and it's but already in what I've covered so far. I look at my dogs differently too. Like I was thinking about the whole vacuum cleaner thing the other day and and the just the volume of things and the overwhelm that, the chaos that my life might bring to my poor pets. And then, you know, to add, on top of that, one of the dogs that we have is supposed to be up for adoption but has not found a home yet, is a blind pit bull, and it's like gosh, you take away that, that element.

Amy Castro: 23:11

You know, and I was actually, as I was getting ready for this episode this morning, I was thinking about I wonder what would be worse for her not being able to smell or not being well. Obviously she can't see, but like losing one or the other, how much that would impact. And it's kind of like well, one or the other how much that would impact. And it's kind of like well, at least she can still smell. But her world has got to be super different than the other dogs, and then it got me wondering do they know how different she is?

Amy Castro: 23:38

And it really gets you thinking more deeply about these animals that we spend so much time with. One of the things I wanted to ask, too, is that in this process of understanding and it kind of ties into lessons which I want to I want to get to in a minute but how much do you think that the way that we live our lives takes away from our ability to see our dog's intelligence and then also allowing them to live up to their full potential or quality of life that they could live? It's like the digging that was a perfect example. It's like I mean, a lot of people rehome their dog if it starts digging and it's more about my flower beds than my dog doing what my dog's supposed to do. Or we recently had a dog, bonnie.

Amy Castro: 24:18

I might've gotten into the gory details on the podcast episode, but one of the reasons that we had such trouble finding her a home is that you talk about prey drive like anything that was going to be other than other dogs, anything that was going to be in her space. She was going to catch it and she was going to do some serious damage. Let's just leave it at that. And people were appalled like, oh you know, she killed two cats. That's a terrible thing and it's like I mean, yeah, it was a terrible thing for the cats and it was a terrible thing for me because one of them was one of my barn cats. At the same time, I don't condemn the dog for doing it's a bull terrier. I mean that's what they do. So I know that's a convoluted way, I guess, the question being like what kind of negative impact do you think we have in trying to rein those behaviors in and take away from their ability to express their intelligence?

Jennifer S. Holland: 25:36

Yeah, I think it's something that we forget because we see our coddled dog on the couch, you know, getting fed and petted and loved, and we forget that we have taken some things away in order to create this pet that we love and adore and of course, we want the best for it and we don't think about are we taking anything away? Is there something that this dog would do if it weren't doing what it's supposed to be doing, if it were misbehaving? In our minds, what does that look like and why is it doing that? Is it in some cases because, you know, maybe digging is self-soothing in a stressful situation you have to kind of look, I think more broadly at why a dog is doing what it's doing. Think about that a little bit bigger picture rather than just immediately assuming the dog is misbehaving, is being bad.

Jennifer S. Holland: 26:20

I mean, I don't know that dogs are ever being bad.

Jennifer S. Holland: 26:23

I mean that's kind of a subjective thing, that's just a term we use, but it's really about you know, yeah, we've taken away some of their access to their natural tools by pulling them back from things, and I completely understand you don't want your dog humping other dogs at the dog park or running away, but I think you just it's a balance.

Jennifer S. Holland: 26:45

You know it's never going to be 100%. We're not partners with dogs. I mean, we do own them, we do make decisions for them, and I think it's partly just a matter of being more aware of those things and looking for opportunities to let them shine in their natural way, whether that means letting them roll around in the mud a bit and so they get a bath, it's probably worth it for them to get, to have that moment and do that thing, to give them back a little of their dogness. But I think people are so ready to stop a situation with a dog without really thinking through whether is this really a problem, you know, is there really anything wrong with this? Is this just dogs being dogs, and is that OK? And I'm trying to do more of that myself.

Amy Castro: 27:29

I'm so glad that you made the point about you know, are they being bad?

Amy Castro: 27:33

Because I think one of the biggest mistakes that humans make and I do it too I'll call my dog a bad dog or you know she did that on purpose, but that in reality, when I'm not like in the emotional moment of being upset with something that the dog has done which has usually been my fault because I allowed it to happen that's a whole nother episode. But kind of one of the things that I like about dogs and animals in general is that they don't do things out of malice. I mean, there might be some higher level animals that have the thinking capacity to say, okay, let me figure out a way to ruin this guy's day, but dogs, they don't do that and they don't have bad behaviors. They have undesired behaviors for us as humans, but at least they're not doing it because they're trying to ruin your day or because they want to destroy your sofa, so you have to spend money you don't have.

Amy Castro: 28:23

That's not what they're about, and so I you know. If nothing else, I hope people really kind of get to understand the behavior and then you can, you know, see where it's coming from a little bit better yeah sure. And then there was something else I wanted to hone in on there that you said too oh, just the enrichment. You know the ability to give pets in enrichment. You know it's like to a certain degree I understand the level of some pampering that happens. I, I am not of that.

Amy Castro: 28:47

I don't know if it's a generational thing or just, you know, I consider myself a pet guardian, not a pet parent, and I have mentally in my mind categories of the types of people that have pets in their lives. But at the same time, I think even somebody who considers themselves a pet parent really needs to consider, you know, what's in the best interest of that pet. And yet, whether it's the rolling in the mud, or giving them a place to dig, or taking them places where they can use their nose, like you said, and let them sniff things, it's just, you know, like you said, allowing dogs to be dogs. They're not humans, they're dogs and they have different needs. So that's, I think that's definitely important. If somebody reads the book and obviously there's a lot of information in there what do you hope happens as far as the lessons that they learned and how they change the way that they interact or take care of their dogs if they're going to have them in their lives?

Jennifer S. Holland: 29:40

I mean, I've been very happy to have friends and family and people who have read it say to me I immediately changed how I walk my dog. I let him decide which way we're going, I let him sniff longer, you know, and that's been kind of nice and rewarding because they're just these little things that just seem like afterthoughts but they really, you know, they do affect that dog's day, I think, and it's just really easy to make it better for them in that way and just to give them a little bit of this, a little bit of that. But I hope people will sort of see the big picture of the book and the fact that there is all this cool science and there is stuff that we're learning and there's so much more interest than there ever was before in how other animals think and learn and even just the idea that they can. It took a long time for a lot of people to come around to the idea that animals have emotions and that other mammals are intelligent, and so you know, I think touching on some of that and getting people to think in that way and then to take that and kind of apply it to their relationship with the animal and think about how you know this is a special animal.

Jennifer S. Holland: 30:45

I mean, dogs aren't necessarily smarter than all the other mammals. They're, you know, smart in different ways. Some of the same ways. I mean dogs aren't necessarily smarter than all the other mammals. They're, you know, smart in different ways, some of the same ways. I kind of joke around that if things had been different, it might have been rats that were our best friends.

Amy Castro: 31:00

They don't have as good PR.

Jennifer S. Holland: 31:01

They don't have very good PR. They definitely, but they're ticklish. I've read that they're ticklish, which is amazing, but you know, dogs are the animal that did this remarkable thing and crossed that line and made us love them and helped us through early human times and just became, I think, a really special creature in our lives that nothing else quite touches, no matter how much we love our cats or whatever. No lizard is ever going to be, you know, treated like a dog. It's just a special, special animal and I just love that. Don't tell the lizard people that.

Jennifer S. Holland: 31:36

Yeah, I have lizards, I have geckos. They don't look at me lovingly, they really don't. But I'm kind of going off in circles here and I think by again, by mixing the science with the personal sort of journey of learning all of this myself and figuring out how to apply it. I didn't come into it knowing how to do all these things, I've just been trying it out as I go and seeing that, yeah, that really does kind of make a difference and that feels good, and making that sort of a part of their thinking process and plucking sort of bits out of the book that makes sense for their lives.

Amy Castro: 32:10

Yeah, yeah, and I think you know when you said that I was thinking about the, you know the fact as far as our special relationship with dogs is that other than maybe horses, when you think about you know your common domesticated things that we spend our lives with, because I would consider a horse a partner in you know, in doing things. A cat is a companion, although I guess it could be a partner if you're going to have it catch bugs and mice but I mean, a dog truly is a partner. It gives and takes, it provides a service to us, whether it's emotional, physical security, whatever it might be.

Jennifer S. Holland: 32:44

It just creates a different relationship and dogs, I think, are special in their ability to cross species lines. You know, I have my book series Unlikely Friendships, which was about kind of odd animal pairs, and when I went back years later and started really looking at it I realized so many stories have a dog. You know, there's always a dog in these stories. That are sort of the ones guiding the situation and starting the friendship and going around checking on all the other animals on the farm, whatever it is that the dog just has that in it. You know, obviously not every dog, I'm overgeneralizing, but there's just something special there that you don't see as often, I think, in other species.

Amy Castro: 33:27

Yeah, that's a good point.

Amy Castro: 33:28

I mean, in doing rescue I've seen that a lot because you know we've had several different types of personal dogs that in the time that we've been doing rescue and it is interesting to see just how't brought the chickens in that we did have a duck in the house and we had a baby goat in the house one time and they just they're pretty good at being at being adaptable for sure.

Amy Castro: 33:57

So one, one other question, kind of diving into that lessons piece, because because, as I mentioned before, to me people doing their homework and making good decisions from the get go is a major key to our issue in homelessness and pets or people surrendering pets to shelters and rescues.

Amy Castro: 34:16

And when I talk to people on a daily basis, a lot of it has come down to you made poor decisions when you selected the pet and then you made poor decisions in your relationship with that pet from the time and we'll use dogs as an example from the time that you got that puppy until it's two and a half years old or 18 months, which is generally when it's happening that they want to get rid of it and it's. You know there's a lot that happens in between. But what advice based on your you know, on your work and your research, any tidbits of advice that you would give somebody in, like I've decided I'm going to go get a puppy or I'm going to go get a dog, whatever it might be, that would help guide them in making that right fit decision.

Jennifer S. Holland: 34:55

Yeah, I mean I think you know as much as I don't lean on breed fully, I do think it. Obviously that's a place to start and that's a really, really important component, because people are selectively breeding for particular traits and so you're certainly going to be more likely to get those kinds of traits. And if you don't have time to do X, then don't get that dog that needs X. You really do need to think about the welfare of the animal first. And then I think a couple of the experts I talked to one in particular trainer said to me we owe it to our dogs to tell them what we want from them. We owe it to them to train them, because if we're not doing a good job of that, we have these expectations that are completely unrealistic and we're punishing the dog for our failure.

Jennifer S. Holland: 35:40

And so I think you know especially if you're getting a puppy, starting them very early and all the things that you know the best breeders and the best trainers do, really getting them to understand. You know the best breeders and the best trainers do really getting them to understand. You know what their role is in this household, how you know how they're supposed to behave, what when they're allowed to get away with other things, you know, giving them those chances to do those dog things outside of that realm, but just being mindful of what your expectations are, of an animal that's a completely different species, that doesn't speak our language, that we're expecting to roll with it and to just do as to figure out what we want and to meet our expectations. Giving them opportunities is so important and just letting them be the wonderful animals they are and just maybe changing a little bit of our understanding and appreciation of the things that they can do.

Amy Castro: 36:33

Yeah, that's very good advice, for sure. And I think I would add to that advice too and we've, you know, we actually did a whole episode on, you know, bringing home a new baby and the challenges that go with that is that when you're thinking about those expectations that you have for that puppy, think about what expectations you're going to have. You know that 10-pound puppy versus the 80-pound dog. It's going to be in nine months. Or you know expectations when it's you and your roommate versus I'm engaged and now I'm going to have children, and so what are the expectations at that point?

Amy Castro: 37:08

And I know it's, you know I'm not expecting that people are going to look 15 years down the road and have a game plan, but if you know, at least have some kind of a game plan, think about those possibilities, because one of the big things that happens with surrendering pets is that either there were no rules, you know, or there were no expectations that were clarified, or they were set in a certain way way, and then there's some life event or whatever it is that happens and suddenly you're completely changing the rules. Like I used to be allowed on the couch and now suddenly I'm not allowed even in the room and it's like, well, that's kind of be a tough nut to swallow and it's going to take a process for somebody to unlearn two years of behavior.

Amy Castro: 37:46

I mean it's kind of unfair that we expect them just to be able to read our minds and figure it out on their own.

Jennifer S. Holland: 37:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's hard. I mean, especially if you get a puppy. You know, be prepared because it's cute and furry and fun. But it's also a real commitment and a lot of work. And you know, adopting an older dog, if possible, sometimes can be a nice way to get past a little of that if possible sometimes can be a nice way to get past a little of that. But you still have to be so careful because that dog has a history and has learned or not learned, and you have to be ready to, you know, to tackle that, whatever that dog needs.

Amy Castro: 38:22

Right, definitely, definitely. So, jennifer, I hope, by hearing what we've talked about so far and we don't want to give too much away about the book because we want you to read it or consume it in some form or fashion what are my options as far as getting access to the book? Like I know, I got mine on Audible and then I got the hard copy through Amazon, but obviously those are not the only sources.

Jennifer S. Holland: 38:43

Yeah, bnncom is another online retailer. If you go to Disneybookscom and search Dog Smart, you actually get a list of places you can choose from to order it. I also have links on my website, which is jenniferhollandwritercom.

Amy Castro: 38:59

Great, so I will put those links in our show notes too, so that people have it.

Jennifer S. Holland: 39:02

Terrific.

Amy Castro: 39:03

Okay, great, all right, anything else that you would want to share, just?

Jennifer S. Holland: 39:08

love those dogs. I mean, I don't have to tell people that I think we love them. We automatically sort of love them, most of us, and they love us back in many ways, and working on this book made me feel even more love for them, which I didn't think I could have. So I hope people who read the book have the same idea. That's great. Yeah, can't can't love and love them and give them what they need as a way to, as a way to show your love for sure All right.

Amy Castro: 39:34

Well, gosh, jennifer, thank you so much. I know you're a busy person and thank you so much for taking time to be with us here on the show today and share a little bit of an insight into the book and all of the fascinating information in it. Again, really appreciate you being here, thank you.

Jennifer S. Holland: 39:48

It's a lot of fun. I love chatting about it, so thank you.

Amy Castro: 39:50

Awesome and for all of you listening out there, if you have a dog, if you're thinking about getting a dog, definitely get it. Check it out. We'll have those links on the show notes and, as always, thank you so much for listening to another episode of the show. We will see you next week. Thanks for listening to Starlight Pet Talk. Be sure to visit our website at starlightpettalkcom for more resources and be sure to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app so you'll never miss a show. And hey, if you like this show text someone right now and say I've got a podcast recommendation. You need to check the show out and tell them to listen and let you know what they think. Don't forget to tune in next week and every week for a brand new episode of Starlight Pet Talk. And if you don't do anything else this week, give your pets a big hug from us.