Deception Unveiled: Shannon's Insights on Recognizing Narcissism, Navigating Toxic Relationships, and Healing from Emotional Devastation

Can you recognize the subtle signs of narcissism before it's too late? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Shannon, a renowned therapist and bestselling author, as she unpacks the often hidden traits of narcissism and their devastating effects on relationships. Shannon brings to light the behaviors associated with narcissism—self-centeredness, lack of empathy, and manipulative tactics—and emphasizes the crucial need to prioritize our own well-being in toxic relationships. 

We venture into the realm of narcissistic parenting, shedding light on the damaging dynamics it creates within families. Shannon discusses the psychological impact on children caught in a web of silent treatments and favoritism, exploring how siblings can be distinctly affected as the "golden child" or the "black sheep." These roles come with their own burdens, leading to issues like perfectionism, anxiety, and depression. This segment provides a profound understanding of how empathy, shaped by genetics and upbringing, plays a role in these dynamics.

In our discussion on the troubling behaviors of narcissists, we uncover their cold-hearted approach to relationships and vindictive tendencies. Shannon explains how narcissists seek revenge and easily discard relationships, causing emotional havoc on those involved. The conversation then shifts to healing, focusing on the trauma-informed, strength-based approach needed for recovery after such toxic ties. We stress the importance of support and deprogramming to reclaim one's life. Shannon's insights, paired with highlights from her new book, promise a transformative journey for anyone seeking to escape and heal from the clutches of narcissism.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Good afternoon and welcome back to another episode of A Contagious Smile, where every smile tells your story. I have Shannon with us today. She is amazing. I've been looking forward to talking with her. Outside of having some calendarly issues with some software issues, which I apologize immensely for, I'm so glad you're here with us today, shannon. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Thank you so much for having me, Victoria. I'm really excited.

Speaker 1: 0:27

Of course, and again I apologize, you know software is not human. But when I get a message and I'm like why didn't I hear back from her yet? Immediately I responded. So again, I apologize, that is not how I work.

Speaker 1: 0:39

I am so excited to have you here, because one of the things that is so big today and not in a good way, is narcissism. You know the narcissistic behavior, narcissism just in general. You know, and it depends. Some people don't believe that narcissism is real and I absolutely believe that it's real. I know you believe that it's real. You are a therapist and you you're a bestselling author and you're a creator on YouTube and you've created a masterclass and this is such a big part of what you do and that's why I'm so glad that you're here with us today. Why is it that you feel so many people are struggling inside of a toxic relationship right now?

Speaker 2: 1:28

of a toxic relationship. Right now it's such a complex issue. My first job out of college was in a domestic violence shelter, and that was a lot of years ago I won't say how many, and we didn't talk about narcissism per se, but that's what we were dealing with. That's what we were helping people to heal from. And now the word has come up, which is apt and it's appropriate, but it's not the whole tamale and it really has become sort of weaponized. So I hear people labeling somebody narcissistic, even if they just have really solid self-esteem, which is not narcissism at all.

Speaker 2: 2:08

Narcissism is a specific list of character qualities that are really toxic to be in relationship with, and so when people label and write people off, that's not helpful. And it's also true that narcissists love to project and flip the script, and so I have a lot of clients who say, well, he's saying I'm a narcissist, or she's saying I'm a narcissist and I'm like, no, no, no, let's talk about this. Here's the list of character qualities, and that person's just flipping the script on you so that they can feel okay about being awful. Um, so, yeah, it's, and I think our culture is more and more narcissistic as well. It kind of promotes this superficial, um, very me focused and very me centered culture and there's very little substance and quality in people's personal characteristics that's really supported, and just the whole social media scene is all about the visual and all about the you know and and it's all about getting what you want and then moving on. So there's just very few solid character qualities that are reinforced anymore.

Speaker 1: 3:31

Absolutely agree, Shannon. Can you tell us what you think the characteristics of a narcissist are?

Speaker 2: 3:38

So in the definition in the DSM-5, which I won't go into like really specifically, but basically the the things that stand out are that they are very superficial, very self-centered, and I don't mean self-care self-centered, I mean really self-centered, like everything has to revolve around them. When they blow up, it's because somebody didn't pay attention at the time in the way they wanted. So their anger is always their implosions and explosions. Because some people do it implosively, where they fall into a bucket of tears and they're suicidal and they're going to run away and all the things, and that's just another form of tantrum. It's the implosion as opposed to the explosion.

Speaker 2: 4:29

So narcissists tend to be non empathic. They don't, they don't even acknowledge other people's emotions, thoughts, feelings, wants or needs and they want what they want, how they want it, when they want it, and they're upset when they don't get it. They also tend to be very transactional. So they might be nice to you if they think they're going to get something back and when they say I love you, it's basically they're happy with your behavior right now because you're doing what they want. So it's not love, but they're really good at all these different games that manipulate and control you, and those games are numerous, as we all know, but they all revolve back around hooking you, manipulating you, controlling you to do what they want, how they want, when they want it, want when they want it.

Speaker 2: 5:21

So, basically, if you are in a relationship and you feel like your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs don't matter and that other person's do, that's toxic and we don't need to diagnose the other person because we can't. But we can certainly say those are narcissistic traits. But sometimes people have sort of borderline personality traits that are also extremely toxic and sometimes they all kind of merge together and we, you know. So in my work with people, in my book as well as in my coaching, I try not to get too obsessed with labeling the other person. I really encourage people just to look at the effect of that relationship on them. If they feel anxious and depressed and confused and frustrated and gaslit and all those things, they're in a toxic relationship by definition.

Speaker 1: 6:18

Shannon, I get the pleasure of working with a lot of teams as well, and a lot of them are recovering from this type of parenting or lack thereof. I don't want to say parenting because to me it's really not, where the parent will, per se, give them the silent treatment for not giving them their way and will keep silent even if they reside in the same dwelling because it's not a home, and they will remain in that silent treatment like a toddler mode where I'm mad at you, I'm not talking to you, I'm gonna kick my foot and say that's it and I'm not talking to you anymore until you apologize for their actions and there's no accountability at all.

Speaker 2: 6:59

And what I hate is that these kids are spending their adulthood recovering from their childhood hate is that these kids are spending their adulthood recovering from their childhood, right yeah, narcissists are extremely poorly set up to be parents. They just, you know, I mean parenting is an absolutely altruistic endeavor. You are there for that person, you are a hundred percent pouring into them 24 seven. Do you get anything back? Of course, at some, you know, at times you feel that love and you feel that smile and you see them grow and all the things.

Speaker 2: 7:34

But somebody who's narcissistic and wants their way and wants their feelings adored and idolized, is a horrible parent. They're absolutely horrible. They're all about the photo shoot and they're not about changing diapers and kissing boo boos and comforting and listening or paying attention to or getting even to know their child. So I've worked with a lot of people also who grew up in with a narcissistic mother or father, and I think especially the narcissistic mothers are just amazingly toxic to their kids because they're but both are true they tend to only give goods, you know, good vibes or good feelings to their child when the child is adoring them, bringing glory to them through their grades or showing you know as a cheerleader or what have you.

Speaker 2: 8:39

So there's no real recognition of who that person is as a person and they don't know who they are. They're just pleasing their parent, and that's an awful way to grow up, because you become a people pleaser. You become a placater, especially if it's a rageful or even implosive parent, that really goes to the extremes of suicidal behavior or rage. You learn to placate and people please. And then what do you take with you into life? You take that template and you put it into every other relationship so that your first boyfriend or girlfriend and your bosses, like you, put up with way too much crap from everybody in the world, because that's how you were raised.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Right, shannon. What makes someone turn or become a narcissist? Because, like, let's say, for instance, they have phenomenal parents, they have just the most wonderful, loving parents. What transpires to make someone turn into a narcissistic parent?

Speaker 2: 9:47

and that's the million dollar question that no one has an answer to. I don't care if they say they do. We don't even know the number of narcissists in the world. You know they when people say, oh, it's four percent or eight percent or whatever it's. You don't know because they don't show up for help. You know the reason we know how many people are depressed in the world is because they show up and say I'm depressed. Narcissists don't show up and say I'm a narcissist. They get dragged into therapy once in a while by a girlfriend or boyfriend or wife or husband or parent, but they never come of their own accord in that you know on that more extreme part of the scale. So nobody knows.

Speaker 2: 10:32

But there is some information lately in some of the research that people are born with more or less empathy and that may be a key ingredient because, you know, some parents are adoring and indulgent and the kid turns out fine. Other parents are adoring and indulgent of a kid with little empathy and that turns into a narcissistic person. And then there are some people who grow up with trauma and neglect and they are narcissistic person. And then there are some people who grow up with trauma and neglect and they are narcissistic. So I think it's that, that inherent or organic lack of empathy that then gets parented in multiple different ways and then turns narcissistic. So some people are saying well, I've felt powerless all my life. I'm going to be powerful and I'm going to be controlling and manipulative and all that. Others just have been adored, put on a pedestal, never held accountable, and they lack empathy and they're like yeah, I am the king of the world. Why?

Speaker 1: 11:42

not Right. Yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I apologize. You are definitely an expert in this, in this area. So my question is what happens when you have a narcissistic parent or narcissistic parents, and one child is the good child, like the golden child, and one child is the black sheep, and they literally how can a narcissist be night and day different to two different kids? Like I get asked that all the time, but how does a child who we didn't ask to come to this world? How do we get titled as one or the other? And then the parent can be night and day. It's like they wear a mask and they take it off and it's one can do no wrong and one can do no right. Well, how does that happen? How does that end up being like? How does that work?

Speaker 2: 12:28

So if you look at that, take a step back and look at it. Usually one kid is the adoring, the one that's bringing glory to that parent, and so they do. They adore that kid because that kid is adoring them and they and they bring glory to that parent and so, yeah, they're all about that kid and they can. They can love that kid not in a love like actual love is an action word but they feel that they love because they are getting what they want and that's the transactional piece right. So they get what they want from that kid and they can't stand the other kid because the other kid embarrasses them. They don't want to wear the frilly dresses they want them to wear or show up for the events that they want them to show up for or get the grades they want them, or go to the right school, or get the grades they want them, or go to the right school or do the right career, like all those things are what are important to that parent, and therefore one kid is doing it right and the other kid is not, and so it's real easy to see how that happens. But it's painful and, as even the hero child, people need to heal from that because again they're taking with them a whole bunch of really terrible messages like you are valuable when you do A, b and C. You are loved when you do A, b and C and not if you don't, not if you stop adoring me and not if you stop placating and peacekeeping me. So not only you know the you know sort of thought of the scapegoat child as being the problem child.

Speaker 2: 14:18

But and they are the ones that often show up for therapy they are the ones that tell the truth about what's really going on in the family. The hero child's like no, everything's great. I don't know what her problem is, but everything's great. But it's actually the hero child that comes into therapy in their 20s and 30s because they're like my world sucks. I am just upside down inside out all the time. I'm anxious, I'm depressed. I don't know why. I feel awful all the time.

Speaker 1: 14:50

The golden child is yeah yeah, so is there a time, maybe, that the golden child will realize that one of the parents really has done wrong to them not necessarily gone, and you know they have this upbringing that they think everything they do is is golden and that they can do no wrong. But then do they get to a point where they're like you, you've ruined me.

Speaker 2: 15:23

Absolutely, because the perfectionism that is instilled in them is toxic to themselves.

Speaker 2: 15:30

So we in my book and in my work, it's really important first to look at the toxic relationship which has developed inside your own head and that comes from that perfectionism.

Speaker 2: 15:43

And so, while the hero child looks happy, healthy, well-adjusted, inside their heads they're miserable because their perfectionism is unrealistic and as soon as they have an imperfect moment which they're going to have because we're humans they freak out, they implode, they freak out, they implode, they torture themselves with unrealistic expectations and push themselves and push themselves.

Speaker 2: 16:25

And sometimes those are the most suicidal people, are the ones who have been that hero child and they just can't keep it up anymore. And then they feel like they're a complete failure and they've watched their parent torture the scapegoat child so that to them looks like a fate worse than death. And they, you know, like I said, they can be the most suicidal, most seriously suicidal people, and young people especially, because they've held up that perfectionism and they've been able to keep it up for a while. But no one can keep that up all the time and they torture themselves mercilessly with the same voice that tortured the black sheep or the scapegoat child, right. So that voice is in their heads too, and whenever they're imperfect, they beat up on themselves mercilessly, just like the black sheep was beat up.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Is it normal that the parents try to make sure that the siblings don't have a relationship with one another?

Speaker 2: 17:18

Yeah, splitting is another narcissistic trait. When you divide, you conquer narcissistic trait. When you divide, you conquer. So if the people in your life talk to each other, then they suss out like, oh wow, what a screwed up game they just played on us. But if they don't talk, if they hate each other, that works out really well.

Speaker 1: 17:42

You just can't imagine behind that closed door what's really going on. I mean, what about?

Speaker 2: 17:54

for instance, let's say, can both parents be narcissistic? Yeah, you know, sometimes two narcissists coexist in a household, but not for very long and certainly not quietly or peacefully. Yeah, I mean, those are the really tumultuous relationships and often violent, often super toxic, and you know, everybody's just in the duck and cover mode in those relationships and and typically it ends really dramatically. Typically a narcissist will gravitate to somebody empathic who's going to take their crap and not complain too much and not blow out. But um, but yeah, I've seen both what a horrible way to grow up yeah I mean, what about?

Speaker 1: 18:43

and I won't name names, but I'm well aware of an individual who has grown up as the golden child and can do no wrong in their mother's eyes and has literally been fed everything in life, Like, for instance, he doesn't even make his own bank deposits. Mom does all of it. Um, he incredibly brilliant, book smart, incredibly smart, but has been a server at the same restaurant for 18, 20 years never you know. Incredibly smart child kid. Sorry, everybody to us now is um, but I can't. I has no relationship with anyone but mom. But then when they go on, there's nothing I could do because I don't have the educational background to help this individual. And that's sad because I wish nothing but the best for him.

Speaker 1: 19:44

Um, but the sadness is like he goes on vacations with his mom and they stay in the same room, like they all go on cruises together and they stay in the same room and then they stay in the same bed and the gentleman doesn't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, and it's like they talk 15 times a day. It's more. You, if you look at it from the outside, they look like they're the married couple. You know that. That's how it's been from inception and you fear for what's going on with that individual growing up, because do they get a breaking point where they resent that mom or parent, because they wonder what have you done? Like they don't have a relationship with anyone but each other and everything they do? Like how does a grown man not know how to make a bank deposit? Or, you know, hang a picture you have to call mom? I mean, that's to me such an unhealthy being that it's scary, because you wonder what is that child going to be like when time continues to go on and they're still doing all of these shenanigans.

Speaker 2: 20:59

Yeah, you'd have to wonder what the sort of the threat is. In other words, if he doesn't do what she wants, what happens? And if I were working with somebody like that, that would be my first question what? What happens if you want to go out with friends? Or what happens if you want to go on vacation with a girlfriend, or you know yeah yeah, yeah, and so that isolation, but they're not living it.

Speaker 2: 21:25

you know, they're living in the world and everybody else has friends and girlfriends and wives and kids and all that stuff, and so you know, I think that those questions are appropriate. And then, and just having a lot of compassion on somebody who grew up in such a way that they have a hard time not being enmeshed with that parent.

Speaker 1: 21:51

That's so heart-wrenching. Can narcissistic parents? Do they turn into narcissistic grandparents as the time goes on?

Speaker 2: 21:57

Not necessarily, but probably. You know, and people will argue with me on my YouTube channel all the time about you know, yes, they can change, no, they can't change. It's like, yeah, anybody can change, but it's really, really hard with somebody with narcissism.

Speaker 1: 22:20

And they have to want to change right, and that's the problem is that they don't see that anything is their fault.

Speaker 2: 22:26

So why would they have to change and why would they engage in anything that said they did? So if nothing's their fault and everything is somebody else's fault, every problematic relationship, they just point the finger at the other person. They take their inventory, they say it's all about them. They create a narrative and this is the other confusing thing for regular folks is that when a narcissist is in the extreme range, they're delusional, and that's a word that means that they don't even take what's reality and log that they take. If they have a thought, a belief or a want or a need and it comes out of their mouths, it's the truth and it doesn't matter what evidence you give them to the contrary, they will never accept it.

Speaker 2: 23:21

I believe that most narcissists could absolutely pass a polygraph. When they come up with a lie and they feed it out, they believe it 100. So when people say, oh they're, they lie all the time. It's absolutely true. I did a video that was called um as uh. When is the narcissist when? How can you tell a narcissist is lying and it's this?

Speaker 2: 23:50

you know the usual when her lips are moving literally you know, everything is a manipulation, everything is a game for control and everything is garbage. But it's their own narrative and they believe their narrative so strongly you're never going to talk them out of it. And so a lot of times people will say to me well, that has to be true. They wouldn't tell a lie about that. Oh yeah, they would. Well, that has to be true. They totally like they. They can't not be telling the truth because they're like passionate about it. So they're really good at it. They're really good at it, and that doesn't mean that it's true, zero, no, zero.

Speaker 2: 24:33

And they really do buy their own narratives to the degree that you will not talk them out of it. It doesn't matter if you've got evidence, they are not going to let go of their narrative period so, no matter what happens, they're always going to blame on someone else and never take responsibility right and they never really.

Speaker 1: 24:56

I don't think they care right. They just have this give me what I want, and if you don't, you'll walk away and I don't care.

Speaker 2: 25:02

Goodbye, good riddance to you. Yeah, basically, they they can disconnect from. They can discard a relationship really easily. They can walk away, they can disconnect. They can just disparage that person. They can gather everybody in that person's life and disparage them to those people so that there's a bunch of flying monkeys coming at that person, flying monkeys coming at that person. They can cyber bully them. They can, they can do all of it. And that not only did they not care, they actually feel like vengeance is awesome. And that's another disturbing thing. If you're an empathic person and you break up with somebody, you don't want them to be tortured, you want to sever it, move on. You know, lick your wounds and move on. But a narcissist wants revenge. They want that person to suffer and hurt and it doesn't even matter if they discarded them. They still want them to suffer and hurt and they don't want anybody else to have them because they they don't want them happy.

Speaker 1: 26:12

They don't want them to move on with their lives and be happy is it true that they are I don't want to use the word patient, but they can wait for some time to get their revenge if that's what they choose to do yeah, some of them can.

Speaker 2: 26:29

You know everybody's different, but you know, some are impulsive and in the moment, others are simmering in the background and they're going to get revenge eventually. But they're, they're plotting, they're devious, they're, they're creating a uh, a revenge. That's cold.

Speaker 1: 26:48

How are they inside? They have to be miserable, right, or? Do they really think that they're okay that would really just spin my head around. You told me that, oh no, they think they're great. They think they're good. That would spin my head, because I can't wrap my head around this.

Speaker 2: 27:01

They'll absolutely tell you they're great, but on the inside they are an empty shell. I refer to it as a hot air balloon. You know how. You have to pump hot air into that hot air balloon constantly, or it implodes and then explodes. What a great analogy. Yeah, so the hot air balloon and I I think it's in my video narcissistic collapse.

Speaker 2: 27:28

So that hot air balloon, their sense of self is non-existent. It's not a stable, whole, solid sense of self. It's this emptiness with this shell of bravado around it. And that's a good indicator of a narcissist too is that they have this bravado. I mean really people who feel good about themselves. They're not braggadocious, they don't have a bravado, they're actually just solid, interesting, humble people of integrity. When you see somebody that has carries this big bravado, you're usually going to see that underneath is this sort of emptiness and they have to fill it constantly with other people um, with drugs and alcohol, or with sex or with you know, whatever conquest they're into. But they're always filling that emptiness. And if you're not filling their emptiness, then you're not in the club.

Speaker 2: 28:35

I have a client who refers to it as a cult of one. Like that's the cult leader and if you don't adore and bow down to that cult leader. You're kicked out of the cult. But you've also been programmed for however many months or years you've been to that cult leader. You're kicked out of the cult. But you've also been programmed for however many months or years you've been in that cult and you have to go through a deprogramming because you are. You are injured. Your emotional self is absolutely damaged and injured.

Speaker 1: 29:04

It's just mind blowing because you can't understand why somebody would literally just be so cold hearted and to like walk away from somebody, not care about what's going on with them, because they don't give them a benefit anymore. Like I can't understand that. Like, even if it's family and you just disown them because they didn't feed into your wild world or whatever the case may be that you just cut them off, you leave them, you want nothing to do with them anymore, but that's family. You're not there for them anymore, right, and it's not even a second thought yeah, it is.

Speaker 2: 29:41

It's very cold and you can notice that and when you first meet a person you know if it isn't family, if it's. You're meeting somebody and you recognize that coldness and that even getting humor out of somebody else's pain or treating people badly even the waiter or the busboy or girl that it. When somebody treats people badly, they treat people badly. And the fact that they treat everybody badly but you they treat really well, don't get sucked into that. That's just BS, that's love bombing and they're doing it for a reason. And once they get you hooked in, you're going to get the same treatment as everybody else gets, but you'll be hurt more because you've been sucked in by them.

Speaker 1: 30:33

Tell me about your trauma enforced strength based approach, like I'm so interested in this.

Speaker 2: 30:40

So trauma based means that we recognize that a lot of people's issues are trauma. So, you know, I see people as a therapist. I see people who have anxiety and depression and they it's almost like people think that they were born with that, like blue eyes, you know, and and when we talk about it and I say, well, I would feel anxious and depressed if I live with that person too. Like you really have to step back and look at the situation you're in. You cannot be, you know, dogged and and harassed and abused and assaulted verbally and emotionally all day, every day, and not have an impact that creates a. It actually creates a change in your brain chemistry. It surges adrenaline into your, into your entire body. Every time we feel afraid, the surge of adrenaline and other stress hormones searches through our bodies. If we, if that happens to us once in a while, it's fine. Our brain chemistry takes care of it and puts a lid on it and kind of shakes it off. But if that happens to us all day, every day, all the time, it's literally a toxic soup that our brains turn into. We have a buildup of cortisol in our brains. It makes us feel agitated, like we can't sleep, but we're exhausted, we feel like we're constantly on an adrenaline, agitation, and what's really weird is that you know that fight or flight mechanism is really intact and it does its job. But again, if it's constant, how do you deal with that? You can't live in that fight or flight all the time. So then we have a third option, which is freeze, and that kicks in when our system just gets completely overwhelmed. So oftentimes people are in fight or flight just walking down the street, just going to the grocery store, but then when they're with their abuser, they actually go into freeze and they feel that that's a comfortable place not comfortable as in, you know, really comfortable but it's a familiar. It's a familiar place and it's a numb place, and numb feels better than agitation and anxiety and depression. So they tend to live in that numb place and when they get out of the relationship if they do they tend to feel worse and then they go back and then everybody says, ah, they're just going to go back, so who cares about them anymore? And so then their support group pulls away and then they feel completely alone.

Speaker 2: 33:32

So I always really reinforce to people you are going to feel worse before you feel better. You know, you've, you've necessarily had to be obsessed with that person. What their wants, needs, thoughts and feelings are all day, every day. You are highly attuned to that and when you come away from that you feel completely empty. You don't know what you think, feel, want or need. You just don't.

Speaker 2: 33:58

And so you have to give yourself time to heal. You have to give yourself the knowledge that it still is the right decision. And just because you feel crappy doesn't mean to go back. It means you got to stick it out this time because you need to heal. And healing is a journey and it's not an obvious one. And that's why I think it's so important that you know your message gets out there in the world that, yes, it's normal to feel this way when you've been through what you've been through, and, yes, there is a solution. And it's not obvious, it's not what everybody says time heals all wounds. No, it really doesn't. We need help and we need to understand things differently and we need to know how to make those healings happen.

Speaker 1: 34:52

Right, and yet the narcissist or the abuser, sometimes one and the same, sometimes two totally different people, can sleep perfectly fine at night and go about it like nothing is going on. But the tiniest thing and I tell survivors of abuse that I work with all the time they're like well, you know, you wouldn't have hit me if I had dinner on the table at seven or if I hadn't, you know, and I survived domestic violence in mine. You know, I never judged one against the other, because one kick, one hit, one punch is one too many. I it's not a comparison, but I I tell people all the time and I I would love your view on this is that if you do everything by the book which you know is their, you know scoreboard, if you will, yes, and you have everything done like you're supposed to, and somebody cuts them off on the way home, or maybe their significant other, their side piece, is unable to see them that night, or they got reprimanded at work or something else happened.

Speaker 1: 35:51

When they walk through that door, they're going to take it out on you regardless if you have everything done and a lot of people who are in that situation say you're right, but people on the outside say no, that's not right. That person must have done something to make them angry. No, they're going to come home and take it out. You are the playground of their anger, you are their playground for their emotion and the only emotion they have is negative. And they're going to come back and take it out on you. And if they're doing it to you, it's a matter of time before they do it to the children and to the pets, because I've watched it happen, I've seen it happen and that's what happens down the road. But you can't prevent that from coming home. That's going to come home or back to the house, because, again, I don't like calling home. But whatever you do, no matter how perfect it is, it's never going to be enough.

Speaker 2: 36:41

That's absolutely right. And you cannot dance and placate hard enough to keep that person from being angry, upset, sad, frustrated, whatever their emotion is. But that person expects you to. They expect you are the solver of all their emotional garbage and that you are the dumping ground for all their emotional garbage. And when you don't do it right, you're going to get it and you cannot. You just can't placate them hard enough to keep them from feeling any feelings ever. It's not possible.

Speaker 2: 37:19

But people will turn themselves inside out for years trying and it's horrible, it's sad, it's very, it's tragic because that person can, literally because of this emotional trauma that leads to this physical reality. You know people, people die from that. You know it causes heart disease and I've read a really interesting article recently that you know that these emotional upheavals cause damage to the vessels in our heart. So you know I mean it's everything, it's everything. So we can't minimize it, we have to see it as important as it is. And so that's the trauma-informed piece. Sorry, that was a super long answer. And then the solution focused is that you know, I first started my YouTube channel about six years ago I think, and it was just called Therapist Talks and I thought we'd talk about everything, and I did at first, and then every time I put together a video that had to do with relationships and toxic relationships and narcissism.

Speaker 2: 38:42

It just went crazy and there were so many people that were so confused and upset and traumatized by these kinds of behaviors, and so a lot of my you know videos came off of questions that viewers asked, and then this year I changed the title to Therapist Talks Thrive Beyond Narcissism, because I don't want us just to survive. We need to thrive Absolutely, and that means that we have to heal from the damage. We have to learn those strategies and skills to heal from the damage and we have to then rebuild our lives lives because, like I said, you feel empty and then you have to say, okay, what do I think, what do I feel, what do I want, what do I need. And when you answer all those questions over time, you rebuild your insides, you rebuild your life and you rebuild a sense of self that's healthy and stable and that won't put up with anybody else's garbage again you ever notice that the ones that need to go on the couch are not the ones that necessarily go.

Speaker 1: 39:52

It's the ones that put us there. You know, we're the ones that are always on the couch, but we can't get the ones that really need to go on the couch. Like you just can't voluntarily get them to go in because they don't think there's anything wrong with them, they'll flat flat out tell you. There's nothing wrong with me, it's all in your head and they try to make you literally act like you're crazy.

Speaker 2: 40:11

Yeah, that works, you know, dividing and conquering works, making you feel crazy, blaming you and making you you know, and that, and the tragic part too is that they can blame and gaslight and all those things. When you start to torture you, then their work is done. They sit back and go huh, cool. So we have to really do the work on ourselves and how we participate in that and it's never a victim's fault. But we do have to look at how we continue to participate, how we don't share our thoughts, feelings, wants and needs early in a relationship and then see what happens. You know, if you're gaga over somebody and you and especially, unfortunately, if sex comes early, you get attached to that person at the level of a woman and a baby. That's the level of attachment that happens in our brain, so it's the oxytocin. So when you get intimate with somebody too early in the relationship and you don't even know them yet, you are going to put up with more grief than you should and more boundary violations than you should. So you have to look at that. You have to keep your distance so that you keep your rational mind on board and not let your emotions get swept up and then look at this person realistically. Watch how they handle frustration or anger or disappointment or any upset. Watch how they handle that, because you're going to learn a whole lot from that. Ask them about their previous relationships. If they take no responsibility and blame everybody else, notice that and don't think in your mind that you're going to change them and you're going to do it differently and you're going to do it better and blah, blah, blah. We all love to think that, but that's just garbage. It's garbage. We're feeding ourselves and then we are putting ourselves in a bad situation that's going to take time to get out of and it's going to do damage to us. Better to go in slowly, take a beat, take a step back. And also, when you show up with not as a placater, peacekeeper, people pleaser when you show up as your whole self, you're going to get a lot more information. So if I never express that I want to do this or I want to do that, or I don't want to do this or I don't want to do that, then that person is is set up to believe that only their thoughts, feelings, wants and needs matter and mine don't. So if I've set that in motion, then, big surprise, that's what's set in motion in that relationship. So I have to show up whole and I have to set, you know, say yeah, actually I want to go hang with friends tonight, or I just want to stay home, or whatever.

Speaker 2: 43:05

If that person has a little mini tantrum, you're done Like why would you even stick with somebody? That was like having little tantrums every time you say what you want to do, forget it. You know, walk on, move on. Life's too short. You don't need to put up with that If you're not, except if your whole self is not in the relationship. You don't know if they're going to be toxic or not. So show up with your whole self. If they're toxic, walk away sooner than later. If they, you know, press for sex sooner than later and you're not ready, and then they have a little tantrum, implosion, explosion, whatever be done with it. Do not, do not push past your boundaries, because then you've told them when you have a little tantrum, my boundaries go away. What a horrible thing to tell somebody.

Speaker 1: 44:02

That is. That is, Tell me about a masterclass that you created.

Speaker 2: 44:09

So after I'd had my YouTube channel for a while, I realized I needed to write a book, because 10 minute videos you can't really share enough to really help people heal. So, out of the fog, into the clear journaling to help you. Toxic Relationships was the book. It's out on Amazon and Kindle and it's really outlining from start to finish all the stuff that you have to do. And then I realized you know a lot of people want all that information in a video series that's very pointed in depth and all about how to really take this healing to the next level. So it's a series of 12 videos with three bonus videos on grounding skills and relaxation skills and also self calming, and all the information is geared towards how to heal. And each of those videos also has a download of journal prompts because I want people to do the work. And then, in addition, I have a small group support group for women and if I had men interested, I would certainly start one for men too.

Speaker 1: 45:34

So we know where you can get your book. Do you take on private clients?

Speaker 2: 45:39

I do in a limited way. I do in a limited way I can. You know I'm extremely busy. So in the in the heel from toxic relationshipscom, slash info is a 20 minute training video and then there is a a link to have a free consult with me for a half an hour. So if somebody does that and then you know it seems like a good fit for the support group or for a private client relationship, then we, I can do that. So they can. Anybody can sign up for a a half hour consult for free at that place.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Well, I want you to make sure I get every possible link because you are like the expert on this and I have learned so much. I cannot thank you enough. I'm going to go order your book as soon as we're done. It has been my absolute pleasure, Shannon, to have you on here today. I hope you will come back and again, I apologize. I'm going to go get rid of my calendar thing.

Speaker 2: 46:48

Again, I apologize because that's no worries, I'm so glad we've got to connect. This was a really wonderful conversation. I wish you all the best and I'd love to come back anytime.

Speaker 1: 46:58

I would love to have you. So I thank you again. I'm going to make sure every way possible is out there. Please go get this book, because if this book is half as insightful as this conversation has been, it's going to be a life changer for many, many people. So I thank you so much and I look forward to having you back again. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 47:15

Thanks, victoria.