Episode 15: Luke 6:27-38

Translation: Common English Bible (CEB)

3 Questions:

What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text?

Toward what is God calling you in this text?

How is it possible to love your enemies?

Additional texts:

Genesis 45:3-11, 15

Psalm 37:1-11, 39-40

1 Corinthians 15:35-38, 42-50

Transcript

00:01.49
Nathan Pile
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Won't you be mine? Won't you be my neighbor? Hello, everyone.

00:11.56
Kevin Shock
Thanks, Nathan.

00:12.62
Nathan Pile
Yeah, you're welcome. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Tend, not Mr. Rogers. um Though Kevin was Mr. Rogers' neighbor. ah Not technically, so don't...

00:26.09
Nathan Pile
don't

00:27.19
Kevin Shock
I don't think I was.

00:27.23
Nathan Pile
But like he lived, he lived close, he lived close. So your grandparents were, yeah.

00:31.08
Kevin Shock
My ah my my grandparents were.

00:35.63
Kevin Shock
Yeah, they went to high school with him.

00:37.79
Nathan Pile
Oh, look at that.

00:38.72
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

00:40.11
Nathan Pile
So um it is another week, another time to engage scripture and to dig in and allow God to reveal God's self to us, Kevin.

00:54.56
Nathan Pile
um

00:57.80
Nathan Pile
Yeah, you doing well?

01:02.24
Kevin Shock
I just told you I'm not doing it well, but I'm glad to be here.

01:07.43
Nathan Pile
Well, we weren't recording when you told me you weren't doing well.

01:09.67
Kevin Shock
No, I know. I know.

01:12.80
Nathan Pile
And that was other, so so you go ahead and share.

01:12.89
Kevin Shock
ah Yeah. yeah but ah Yeah, no, I mean, I'm I'm doing OK.

01:17.90
Nathan Pile
Whatever you're gonna share.

01:19.69
Kevin Shock
I'm just I'm my my healing is taking a while and my body is very, very tired and and my my spirit is a little tired with some things happening in the church right now, but that's why it's good for us to get together and have these conversations.

01:40.44
Nathan Pile
Yeah, be reminded of the love and hope that is in the world.

01:41.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

01:44.86
Kevin Shock
Yes. Yes, that God gives us.

01:46.57
Nathan Pile
All right. um Well, I am.

01:48.24
Kevin Shock
ah How about you? Are you well?

01:50.56
Nathan Pile
It's a sunny day here at camp. um

01:52.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah, it's sunny where I am too.

01:54.79
Nathan Pile
So it's um it is really probably the funniest day we've had for like a month. ah So, and we're but above 30 degrees.

02:07.01
Nathan Pile
So that too is a plus because we've been below 30 degrees probably for the majority of the last month, which very exciting, very exciting here.

02:14.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

02:18.63
Nathan Pile
So.

02:19.70
Kevin Shock
Yeah, when I was at camp last week, it was not only was it not above 30 degrees, it was not a above zero for part of the time I was there. oh Which.

02:28.90
Nathan Pile
Yes, it's cold. It's chilly.

02:31.16
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it went fine. I stayed plenty warm and you all have a lot of snow down there, or at least as of this recording, you have a lot of snow.

02:33.78
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

02:40.53
Nathan Pile
Yes, yeah there' we're only supposed to get another one to three this week, twice, two different days. So so I guess technically we could get six more inches. but so um the The ski resorts are are proclaiming close to 80 inches this season, I think.

02:58.13
Nathan Pile
so and and And I know that since January 1st, we've had about 40 some here, 40, 42 inches, something like that.

02:58.61
Kevin Shock
Oh my goodness. Wow.

03:05.81
Nathan Pile
so

03:08.40
Nathan Pile
So it's been a lot, yeah, but it's been, a you know, it's winter. ah So like, I prefer this over what we've had the last couple of years. So yeah, yeah, good to see you, buddy.

03:16.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

03:17.39
Nathan Pile
Glad you're back and feeling, you know, okay, though you're tired and so forth.

03:20.82
Kevin Shock
Okay. Yeah.

03:23.57
Nathan Pile
So that's a, that is one of those stages though, of, of resting and recovery is that like, as you start to come back in, it always seems a little like you're,

03:38.19
Nathan Pile
yeah

03:39.23
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I i last week.

03:40.21
Nathan Pile
Yeah, so you you're starting to feel pretty good about just resting, and now you're not just resting, now you're starting to kind of move and be active, and and I think that kind of makes us physically feel poo-poo, and then when we humans do things to each other that also feels like poo-poo, so.

03:59.66
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

04:03.02
Nathan Pile
um Well, this week as we engage scripture, we're gonna look at Luke chapter six, verses 27 through 38. Kevin and I are gonna read from the common English Bible translation, but you can and you can find that on Bible Gateway if you're interested, or you can follow along with whatever translation you have close at hand. um Again, i would i I would encourage you to have a Bible open and just look at the words. um Two, maybe not every time, sometimes just listen, but sometimes you can actually look at the words. Two and that also, I find, brings inspiration at times. so Our three questions this week, two are familiar. What word, phrase or image strikes you in this text? And toward what is God calling you in this text? The ah third question is, how is it possible to love your enemies?

05:01.76
Nathan Pile
Wow, ah yeah, that's gonna be, we're gonna wrestle with that one. um

05:08.86
Kevin Shock
Yeah, this, um and I mean, people don't really have a sense of our recording schedule, but the this prep sheet was written ah definitely before the inauguration, if not well before the inauguration, and it won't, ah, it won't drop for another three weeks or so, so I'm not sure what all will will happen between now and then.

05:21.29
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

05:29.20
Kevin Shock
but it's a good conversation to have, I think.

05:29.94
Nathan Pile
know Yeah, yeah.

05:32.77
Kevin Shock
ah This is some information about your hosts. We are men married to women in financially stable households, white in our late 40s, college and seminary educated.

05:43.21
Kevin Shock
We work in the Lutheran church and were born and raised in Western Pennsylvania.

05:44.16
Nathan Pile
cool

05:47.14
Kevin Shock
All of this affects how we read scripture and discuss it, but none of this makes us better able to read and discuss scripture than anyone else. We believe that the wisdom of Scripture is the whole community's compiled interpretation for life with God and one another. So we want to know what you hear and think from your life experience. And again, this is Luke, the sixth chapter, verses 27 through 38 from Common English Bible.

06:15.67
Kevin Shock
ah Jesus said, let's be clear that this is Jesus, Jesus said, but I say to you who are willing to hear, love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on the cheek, offer the other one as well. If someone takes your coat, don't withhold your shirt either. Give to and everyone who asks and don't demand your things back from those who take them. Treat people in the same way that you want them to treat you.

06:44.73
Kevin Shock
If you love those who love you, why should you be commended? Even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, why should you be commended? Even sinners do that. If you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, why should you be commended? Even sinners lend to sinners expecting to be paid back in full. Instead, love your enemies. Do good and lend, expecting nothing in return. If you do, you will have a great reward.

07:14.42
Kevin Shock
You will be acting the way children of the Most High act, for he is kind to ungrateful and wicked people. Be compassionate just as your father is compassionate. Don't judge and you won't be judged. Don't condemn and you won't be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and it will be given to you. A good portion, packed down, firmly shaken and overflowing will fall into your lap.

07:41.20
Kevin Shock
The portion you give will determine the portion you receive in return. If you are meeting with a group, you can pause the podcast now and engage the questions on your own. ah Nathan, what word phrase or image strikes you in this text?

07:58.78
Nathan Pile
The phrase, as you read it, the thing that stuck out to me was, I have to go back and look here, what verse it was. It was towards the bottom. ah You will be acting the way children of the Most High act. um I just liked the way that it was, they've translated this.

08:16.37
Nathan Pile
um

08:20.12
Nathan Pile
A, the the again, we use the name for God and in lots of ways, this Most High. um was a different way of hearing that the one who is is lowered.

08:34.87
Nathan Pile
um

08:38.13
Nathan Pile
But I was struck by that the the phrasing again you will be acting like the you will be acting the way children of the most high act. Obviously you know thinking about you know we I was a child once and so I can think about um that and and I know more than once in my lifetime, um as a kid, I heard, well, this is the way this family acts.

09:09.55
Nathan Pile
um Maybe it wasn't quite that said that way. um I don't care what I don't care what your friends' families do. This is the way we behave.

09:21.65
Nathan Pile
um was kind of an expectation that was laid um pretty clear in our family and and there the household that I live in now, it would be the same. you know We say this to our daughter all the time. we don't you know Well, somebody else's family doesn't do that. Well, we don't care what that family does.

09:46.77
Nathan Pile
um This is the way we, we act.

09:53.33
Nathan Pile
And so, you know whatever life lesson we're trying to teach or whatever value we're trying to um to kind of um share with our daughter at that time, um the importance of that there's a a standard for the family.

10:16.51
Nathan Pile
And that's how we, we act. And so hearing that, hearing this phrase, again, most of this passage is around some of that um this is i had to look after you were getting towards the end um this is Luke's the end of Luke's um what would be the sermon on the mount or the beatitudes stuff um sermon on the plain is Luke this is Luke's for yeah Luke's version of of that which happens in Matthew so I was giving you sorry everybody i was giving you names of what

10:40.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah, the sermon on the plain. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

10:52.60
Nathan Pile
what that is in Matthew. So uh it's the same the same idea, same language.

10:54.44
Kevin Shock
Yeah, but it, but right. It's the same. It's the same idea. Yeah. Yep.

11:00.70
Nathan Pile
There are some differences if you put them side by side, um which would be an interesting but biblical study if you were a church nerd. um

11:13.99
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

11:14.67
Nathan Pile
saying that saying that I've done that before. um And you highlight what's the same and highlight what's different in a different color. and You know, why would the author make these changes and so forth. Anyway,

11:25.15
Nathan Pile
um

11:28.15
Nathan Pile
so like all of this makes sense in my head of of what's going on here. But this just that idea of that we are the children of God and head of the household

11:46.75
Nathan Pile
It has expectations. I hate to use that word as a Lutheran Christian, but um but there's ways that we act in the way.

11:53.10
Kevin Shock
you

11:57.94
Nathan Pile
There's ways that we live into the way of of of God.

12:05.55
Nathan Pile
So how about you, my friend?

12:06.82
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Well, I'm just I'm curious about ah that word expectations.

12:13.38
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

12:13.57
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, I don't know if Jesus Jesus does not put conditions on his love for us, but there's still an understanding that if we're going to be his followers, we should act like his followers.

12:25.99
Nathan Pile
Yes.

12:34.57
Nathan Pile
Yeah. yeah

12:35.53
Kevin Shock
So I I think that expectation is is a good word, which which actually brings me into the word that stuck out to me, and that is sinners. That the section of um You know, even sinners love those who love them. Even the sinners do good to those who do good to them. ah And ah even sinners lend to those from whom they expect repayment.

13:01.52
Kevin Shock
um

13:04.25
Kevin Shock
I I I feel i'm I'm hesitant, I'm always hesitant to um make differentiation as though Jesus is saying, well, those other people are sinners, but you're not.

13:19.37
Kevin Shock
And I don't think he's saying that, but I think it's easy to read that into it. I think it's easy to hear Jesus's words and say, yeah, I'm not like them. ah But the reality is that we are. Maybe not, maybe not all the time, but sometimes. And I think that um

13:42.96
Kevin Shock
I think that what Jesus is saying here is that this is, ah again, I like your word expectations.

13:48.72
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

13:49.31
Kevin Shock
this is This is the way of life that will be among you.

13:51.02
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

13:53.95
Kevin Shock
This this is how life will be among you um you.

13:56.26
Nathan Pile
Mm.

13:59.28
Kevin Shock
You'll love your enemies, you'll do good, and you'll lend expand expecting nothing in return. um Yeah, so I think we all know that that's that can be a difficult thing to do.

14:12.74
Kevin Shock
all of those things, maybe not, you know, maybe we have moments or even a lot of moments where we're able to do those things pretty well. But there are certainly times that we slip back into, well, I'm not going to. I'm not going to help that person because they weren't willing to help me or.

14:31.84
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, i'm I'm not just going to give my money away so that someone can take advantage of me or, you know, things like that. um This seems Jesus is calling us to another standard here.

14:49.21
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

14:49.37
Kevin Shock
and And I don't think the standard is to not sin. I mean, i i and on a very basic level, I do think that's the standard, ah but I also think that that's not something that's within our ability.

15:05.99
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

15:06.71
Kevin Shock
to stop sinning.

15:07.99
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

15:08.07
Kevin Shock
ah So here, Jesus is giving some very specific examples of how we can live into the life that he has ah loved us into and forgiven us into and brought us into with his life.

15:24.14
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

15:25.24
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

15:28.98
Kevin Shock
I mean, I think we hear and we hear in the gospels that the disciples sin.

15:35.94
Nathan Pile
Right.

15:37.42
Kevin Shock
or Or at the very least, they ah do not have their mindset on divine things, but on human things, which I think is a pretty good definition for sin.

15:45.82
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

15:51.19
Nathan Pile
Hmm, yeah, no, I um I appreciate that. And and I think though the reason I so I shared that the weirdness around expectations is is that piece of, again, Jesus isn't saying you only get loved if you do these things.

16:11.99
Kevin Shock
Mhm.

16:12.77
Nathan Pile
but you know that That's where the expectation piece comes in. The expectation piece comes in is in God's love is is unconditional. But because of that love, these expectations are a part of how we live as community. This is the way.

16:33.03
Nathan Pile
um so

16:37.86
Nathan Pile
But you clarified that beautifully. Beautifully. so Thank you very much.

16:42.39
Kevin Shock
Thanks. Thank you.

16:43.63
Nathan Pile
Thanks very much. Now you're ready to do it a second time?

16:46.57
Kevin Shock
Yes.

16:50.89
Nathan Pile
But I say to you who are willing to hear, love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on the cheek, offer the other one as well. If someone takes your coat, don't withhold your shirt either. Give to everyone who asks and don't demand your things back from those who take them.

17:21.14
Nathan Pile
Treat people in the same way that you want them to treat you. If you love those who love you, why should you be commended? Even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, why should you be be commended? Even sinners do that. If you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, why should you be commended?

17:50.51
Nathan Pile
Even sinners lend to sinners expecting to be paid back in full. Instead, love your enemies, do good, and lend expecting nothing in return. If you do, you will have a great reward. You will be acting the way children of the Most High act, for he is kind to ungrateful and wicked people. Be compassionate just as your father is compassionate.

18:18.88
Nathan Pile
Don't judge and you won't be judged. Don't condemn and you won't be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and it will be given to you. A good portion packed down, firmly shaken, and overflowing will fall into your lap. The portion you give will determine the portion you receive in return.

18:47.53
Nathan Pile
All right, ah so Kevin, ah toward what is God calling you in this text?

18:56.74
Kevin Shock
I think it is to treat people the way that Jesus treats you instead of treating people the way that they treat you.

19:11.25
Kevin Shock
Does that make sense?

19:14.16
Kevin Shock
um ah um

19:18.68
Nathan Pile
your mode of ah Your mode of operation can't be, well, Kevin did this, so I can do it.

19:18.88
Kevin Shock
yeah

19:24.91
Kevin Shock
Right, right. And yeah, and I think I think even um consciously, that's not necessarily something that we say that, well, I mean, honestly, I've heard I've heard people say things like that.

19:37.44
Nathan Pile
Sometimes, sometimes we justify ourselves, yes.

19:37.75
Kevin Shock
that i'm Yeah, umm um I'm gonna treat them the way that they treat me, yeah.

19:43.58
Nathan Pile
Right.

19:43.64
Kevin Shock
um But I think that Jesus's disciples get called to a, well, I, again, higher expectations, higher standard.

19:53.94
Kevin Shock
um that what what we've received doesn't come from human sources as much as it comes from divine sources. I mean, we receive things from human sources, ah but um but what has the what has the biggest hold in our life? What is the most important in our life is what we have received from Jesus. ah And so,

20:25.24
Kevin Shock
I feel like I'm being called to use use that example as but my my motivation for moving in the world. um And I'll just be honest, some days I really don't feel like doing that. I mean,

20:47.06
Kevin Shock
some days it's hard it's hard to do that.

20:49.68
Nathan Pile
Yeah. Yeah.

20:55.29
Kevin Shock
um Yeah.

20:55.36
Nathan Pile
like As you were talking, the thing that kind of sticks out to me of like most days being loving from the time I get up to the time I go to bed,

21:17.77
Nathan Pile
like like that's a lot of work.

21:18.36
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

21:21.47
Nathan Pile
Like for every, like, cause you really need to be intentional. If you're going to, you know, to me, love is intentional, which means every interaction I have, I need to be practicing intentionality about being loving and being compassionate and, and like that, like it's just impossible.

21:48.19
Nathan Pile
At some point I need to check out a little bit.

21:49.49
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

21:50.51
Nathan Pile
At some point I need to decompress. And so if something happens in that time that I'm giving myself that decompression time, but then I'm probably not interacting well. Like last night, like ah it was the end of the day. I was ready for bed. I had gotten up early cause I was at a leading worship at a congregate local congregation. And so, um and it was a good, everything was good morning, everything, you know, it was a good day, but it was the end of the day. And like, I was short with Rachel.

22:20.41
Nathan Pile
like, get in bed.

22:21.25
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

22:23.72
Nathan Pile
Like, quit playing around, get in bed.

22:24.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

22:27.32
Nathan Pile
um And so I wasn't very loving. So of of course, this morning on our ride to school, I apologized for being short with her.

22:36.48
Nathan Pile
But like, That's just one episode over the course of a whole day. And so like it happens for us.

22:41.77
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

22:43.65
Nathan Pile
so And I know that that were there's there's forgiveness there from Jesus when that happens, but we also need to be mindful of it, catch it um and it. And I don't know what it is.

22:54.26
Nathan Pile
Right now it seems harder because maybe of of the bandwidth that it takes to be in this more anxious time.

23:07.16
Nathan Pile
but it seems harder to be able to continue to be loving in all of my interactions, being intentional with all of my interactions, kind of a thing.

23:07.94
Kevin Shock
Hmm.

23:15.31
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah.

23:17.68
Nathan Pile
And so like just you describing it just kind of made me think, boy, how do how do I how do I do this? how do I How do I refresh myself in such a way that I could might be different in the world?

23:31.32
Nathan Pile
Because like if we as God's people can be different in the world, it would make a huge difference.

23:38.15
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

23:38.90
Nathan Pile
like People would notice, oh, there's something about Kevin.

23:44.63
Nathan Pile
you know and And and and you know and and if so ah if if we did that this in our communities, um not just our communities of faith, but the that the community of faith took it and went beyond their own walls and said, well, this is how we're going to intentionally live in this community.

24:01.96
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

24:04.84
Nathan Pile
People in the community would be like, what's going on over there at that church?

24:08.65
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's true.

24:09.32
Nathan Pile
What's going on with those crazy Christians? Because like every interaction I have, I see them trying to be something that I'm not experiencing in the rest of the world.

24:11.47
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

24:18.32
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm. Yeah.

24:22.13
Nathan Pile
But like that dream and the reality of trying to do it in my own personal life seems hard to to make a reality at times.

24:36.01
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah.

24:37.56
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

24:38.08
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I I completely ah completely relate to all that you just said. and And that the phrase that you use that really speaks to me is um maybe we don't have the bandwidth to do it in this anxious time.

24:54.40
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

24:54.63
Kevin Shock
um I, Yeah, I I I feel that way. um And it's not an excuse, but I do think that like there are There are times when we just feel overwhelmed.

25:08.47
Kevin Shock
um

25:11.78
Kevin Shock
And I think that's part of my my reflection on why I'm feeling so like worn out is, you know, I have physical healing going on. I'm also just dealing with um like I'm tired of being in my house. I mean, I I get out to a few places, but it's you know, it's it's not it's winter time, so.

25:33.75
Kevin Shock
I have to be, right now I have to be kind of cautious about where I go and, and, um, yeah. And, and I, I just don't have like the things that I do take like twice the energy that I think I didn't expect.

25:47.73
Kevin Shock
But then. I think when we're physically drained, that, that for me, at least that drops right into emotionally drained or mentally drained.

25:58.54
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Yeah.

26:00.42
Kevin Shock
Um, yeah. and And I just, I think about, you know, right, right now, both politically and in the church. I'm like, I'm just exhausted of trying to refute propaganda.

26:17.61
Kevin Shock
You know, you read these things online or you or I get emails that, you know, someone in this church was saying this and I.

26:17.83
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

26:25.52
Kevin Shock
Like I, you know, how many times can you say, that's just not true. Here's, here's the truth. Um, before you just like it, it, it's yeah, it gets old and it, and it takes a lot of energy, especially when you don't have energy to do it.

26:31.92
Nathan Pile
Right.

26:40.37
Kevin Shock
So that's, that's all to say. Um, maybe we're getting into our third question. I don't know.

26:51.26
Kevin Shock
Um, how do, how do I do that? Maybe that's a third question kind of thing.

26:56.63
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

27:00.25
Nathan Pile
um Well, before we go to the third question, my I think my thing here is how listening to everything that's here and even are just our just your reflection and a kind of our talking about your reflection, the place where I got got, as I was reading it, the place where I got hung up um ah thinking about,

27:02.88
Kevin Shock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:24.20
Nathan Pile
being called this way or what I'm being called toward. How do I be one of the people that that Jesus is talking about here at the very beginning? How do I be a hearer?

27:37.32
Nathan Pile
um

27:37.86
Kevin Shock
Oh, mmm, yeah.

27:39.06
Nathan Pile
But I say to you to you who are willing to hear, like, I want to be one of those people. That's what I want to be. um You know, as I was reading this, like, that was, I was like, ooh, I wish I would have heard that differently when I was listening to you read it, because that would have been a phrase I would have wanted to talk about.

27:46.49
Kevin Shock
Mhm, mhm.

27:55.90
Nathan Pile
But, but I do think that I feel called toward.

27:57.98
Kevin Shock
You can still talk about it.

27:58.94
Nathan Pile
that Yeah, well, we're going to talk about it now because I do feel called toward. Like, that's the, like, I, And I think probably for most of us if as we hear this we want to be here we want to be Hearing we want to hear what Jesus has to say here and be willing to do What Jesus is is laying out for us, but like that's what I feel called toward.

28:20.94
Kevin Shock
Mhm.

28:22.12
Nathan Pile
I want to be able to be hearing what Jesus is teaching me in this in this in these verses. So like again, that goes back to what you were talking about.

28:34.87
Nathan Pile
I just heard it in a different place, space. Like how how do I as I, as I live in God's love, what is it about the way I'm living that makes

28:41.51
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

28:54.70
Nathan Pile
the exhaustion, the thing that that that causes me to to um not be compassionate or loving at different phases of my day. And again, our own selfishness, our own wrapped up in ourselves, our our own desire for our ways opposed to divine ways, like we're good that's gonna cause us to sin, and it's gonna cause us to,

29:21.27
Nathan Pile
to to

29:24.79
Nathan Pile
not live that perfect space and place, but in this in this time, what are the things that I need to do?

29:27.86
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

29:35.40
Nathan Pile
and And maybe even to ask the church the same question, what is it that we as the God's people, the church need to do that nurtures us?

29:47.69
Nathan Pile
in hearing the story of who God is and how God loves us. What is it about that that can that can cause us rest, renewal, so that we can be you know the loving body of Christ in our communities, in our families, those you know all of those places. so

30:17.39
Nathan Pile
um'm I'm I'm intrigued with this idea of what what do I need to be able to do to be able to hear. And I think if I go back to other times in my life, um when I know I'm not hearing well, busy is one of the problems.

30:30.05
Kevin Shock
Oh.

30:44.81
Nathan Pile
But it's maybe not the only one. Busy, though, is one of the problems.

30:49.51
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

30:51.99
Nathan Pile
Being so busy.

30:53.58
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

30:53.63
Nathan Pile
So.

30:57.75
Nathan Pile
um

31:07.79
Kevin Shock
Yeah, that's, I'm, I'm just intrigued that you said what I think of being willing to hear as being the first step, but it sounds like there's a, from what you said, there has to be a way to put yourself in that, in that position of being willing to hear.

31:24.05
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

31:24.98
Kevin Shock
Um, that's being willing to hear is not the default. I get the sense from Jesus and from what you said.

31:31.18
Nathan Pile
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

31:33.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

31:34.16
Nathan Pile
Well, and, and, and it's, and it's like listening, engaged listening, active listening, you know, that's one of the things we, one of those things we talk about with our summer stuff, you know, how do we be an active listener?

31:45.11
Nathan Pile
Like making sure that you're paying attention to what's going on here and it doesn't become, uh a charlie brown teacher that goes wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall like like that's not what you know so how do I prepare myself so that it doesn't become wall wall wall wall wall wall wall but is but is something that is um that is I I hear it I'm able to engage with it um

31:57.84
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

32:24.98
Nathan Pile
even if I'm not acting on it, but if I've ah but if i've actively taken it in, i can I can wrestle with it. I can I can um you know try to to make it a part of my daily life. But but again, I think sometimes in my in my own life,

32:43.81
Nathan Pile
things just become, my my hearing is an engaged, isn't is not engaged listening. it's I can hear somebody's voice and they're talking to me and I'm nodding my head at them but I am not fully engaged with what's going on.

32:55.30
Kevin Shock
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

33:06.04
Kevin Shock
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also to keep in mind that this isn't just, this isn't just being willing to hear in general. This is being willing to hear Jesus, which I think, I think it's easier for us to hear the, the people and the things that we want to hear.

33:16.10
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

33:25.62
Nathan Pile
Right.

33:26.04
Kevin Shock
But um yeah but there are there are lots of things about what Jesus says that are hard for us to hear, even even if we're committed to the faith.

33:26.45
Nathan Pile
Sure.

33:31.34
Nathan Pile
All right.

33:40.71
Kevin Shock
even I mean yeah there's There's just this constant pool between, well, again, divine things and human things.

33:49.73
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

33:50.85
Kevin Shock
yeah

33:53.18
Kevin Shock
and And the reality is Jesus might say some things to us that we really don't want to hear. But that's the, again, that's also all predicated by He loves us. He forgives us. He has called us His own. He he has given us His life.

34:16.06
Kevin Shock
um

34:19.07
Kevin Shock
And really, If we're to look at like the ah the um return of investment, so to speak, um listening to Jesus is probably the best one to listen to out of all of the other voices that exist in the world.

34:35.23
Nathan Pile
Yes, yeah, yeah. yeah

34:37.28
Kevin Shock
Because it will lead us to a place where we live better with one another and and yeah have a

34:47.59
Kevin Shock
Well, anyway, I think I'm slowly sliding into question three again.

34:52.91
Nathan Pile
All right, let's do the third time.

34:56.79
Kevin Shock
Okay, ah this is from Luke chapter 6, 27 through 38. But I say to you who are willing to hear, love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who mistreat you.

35:14.30
Kevin Shock
If someone slaps you on the cheek, offer the other one as well. If someone takes your coat, don't withhold your shirt either. Give to everyone who asks and don't demand your things back from those who take them. Treat people in the same way that you want them to treat you. If you love those who love you, why should you be commended? Even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, why should you be commended? Even sinners do that.

35:43.13
Kevin Shock
If you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, why should you be commended? Even sinners lend to sinners expecting to be paid back in full. Instead, love your enemies. Do good and lend, expecting nothing in return. If you do, you will have a great reward. You will be acting the way children of the Most High act, for he is kind to ungrateful and wicked people. Be compassionate just as your father is compassionate.

36:12.94
Kevin Shock
Don't judge and you won't be judged. Don't condemn and you won't be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and it will be given to you. A good portion, packed down, firmly shaken and overflowing will fall into your lap. The portion you give will determine the portion you receive in return.

36:34.12
Kevin Shock
Nathan, how do you love how is it possible to love your enemies?

36:41.92
Nathan Pile
ah um The simplest way I can say it is is only with God's help, only with the Holy Spirit's help. And even then, the Holy Spirit needs to be pretty persistent with me um because it's it's

37:05.14
Nathan Pile
It's very easy for those negative voices or some kind of a negative cycle to develop in my head when I'm trying to love an enemy. An enemy most days are probably is probably pretty strong words, um but somebody that I'm struggling to get along with

37:33.48
Nathan Pile
doesn't have to be an enemy, but right now there's a conflict between me and somebody in my life. And so um being able to live through that conflict with them, like I and need, because the negative ah negative cycle or negative thought in my own head can pop in there and I can

37:59.98
Nathan Pile
I can rationalize doing other terrible things to the, you know, just making the conflict worse and not coming and and trying to be loving.

38:07.74
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

38:11.08
Nathan Pile
And so being able to um to be, to being self-differentiated enough. um And what I mean by that um would be that I can keep my own emotions kind of in check enough that I can

38:20.61
Kevin Shock
Mm, mhm

38:29.32
Nathan Pile
have a conversation with somebody um and not

38:40.77
Nathan Pile
and not not lose my temper, not not not become angry, um and and try to sort my way through that conflict.

38:45.04
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

38:52.04
Nathan Pile
Because those negative cycles very easily, I can rationalize doing doing and saying all kinds of things because I've been hurt by that other person.

39:01.33
Kevin Shock
Sure.

39:01.66
Nathan Pile
And so being able to

39:07.17
Nathan Pile
to have the patience to listen to them and then try to enter into that relationship um in all of the ways that that this passage talks about forgiveness and compassion um being the the chief things that I'm trying to to use as ah tools in this relationship as opposed to um other, you know,

39:37.57
Nathan Pile
negative words or lashing out or whatever that might be.

39:39.51
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm, mm hmm.

39:41.55
Nathan Pile
So it's like for me being able to love my enemy, I need God's support.

39:52.94
Nathan Pile
And sometimes that support looks like other human beings. that help me deal with or manage that or allows me to come and vent for a little bit and then I can go back and deal with the other the other challenge or the the struggle that that I'm having with this other person.

40:14.91
Nathan Pile
Yeah, so ah and that would again when I say other people I believe the Holy Spirit is in them and so that is part of that Relationship of the way that God helps to intervene in my life is is through other people It's not the only way but that's one of the ways um That I have become reliant on

40:29.34
Kevin Shock
sure

40:39.63
Nathan Pile
trying to do that. I think the other piece is that like forgiveness really has to be a part of like practicing forgiveness really has to be a part of my life.

40:55.39
Kevin Shock
yeah

40:56.21
Nathan Pile
you know i need I need that other support. I need to be able to vent. I need to be able to calm myself down. um And I need to feel my emotions. I'm not saying that I i deaden what what I'm feeling, but I need to feel those things and be able to express what's making me angry or what's making me frustrated in the situation.

41:15.25
Nathan Pile
But I need to do it in a calm way and not a way that escalates things.

41:19.28
Kevin Shock
Mm hmm.

41:19.26
Nathan Pile
But I also need to be able to practice forgiveness, which means letting letting things go.

41:31.78
Nathan Pile
So.

41:35.14
Kevin Shock
Yeah, I think that that's a. i I just think that's a difficult thing to do, I. I don't know what else to say. um I think being a person of forgiveness is difficult, especially because ah part of the issue for me is that um I guess I might, to for myself, differentiate it by saying to have a forgiving attitude because there may be um you know there may be situations where I don't really have to forgive somebody for what but they've said or what they've done. I mean, it could just be we have a strong difference of opinion

42:19.01
Nathan Pile
Sure.

42:19.07
Kevin Shock
um Or or maybe, you know, the the the person that I would seek forgiveness from isn't even known to me, you know, because they're they're the ones that are spreading the gossip or something like that. But um I so I think having a forgiving attitude is important and it it it relates to what I was thinking right off the bat with this question, and that is um Well, first of all, I agree with what the first step is with God's help.

42:50.79
Kevin Shock
This is not. um Loving your enemies is not something that we can do apart from Christ, because it's only in Christ that we have seen that demonstrated well.

42:58.95
Nathan Pile
Hmm.

43:02.15
Kevin Shock
um And I'm not saying that there aren't maybe other people throughout history have who have loved their enemies, but um but I think a lot of them have done so in the way of Jesus. and And even for those who are outside the way of Jesus, maybe they were more aligned with the way of Jesus than what they or any of us thought they were too.

43:23.29
Kevin Shock
um

43:26.00
Kevin Shock
But the the second thing I was thinking of is humility. um that's For me, that's essential in not only loving your enemies, but even just living with them.

43:39.32
Kevin Shock
um I think I think something that I don't think something that has. I see it evidenced in my own life and I see it evidenced in the world around me. um If we have strong differences of opinion with someone else are like it's so easy to jump right to. Well, how stupid must they be? um You know, if if they can't if they can't see the light, if they can't see the way things actually are,

44:10.14
Kevin Shock
um They've got to be pretty dumb. But the thing that I'm the thing that I guess I'm realizing I don't know if I've realized that or not but um Something that I think about is that Just like I have arrived at the opinions that I have and the things that I hold dear through a lifelong process of Thinking discussing discerning um I think that's the case with a lot of other people, too. Now. We may not agree with all of their values um and think that they're misguided or coming from a different place, but then. But but to just write them off as, you know, why can't they see things the way that I see them? but there There might be a lot of reasons why they can't see things the way that you see them or the way that I see them.

45:06.86
Kevin Shock
um Yeah, so I think I think humility is a humility is a big part of loving your enemies. and And I think, you know, you were talking earlier about not having the bandwidth to deal with this anxious time.

45:25.47
Kevin Shock
um

45:30.21
Kevin Shock
Well, now I lost my train of thought.

45:35.39
Kevin Shock
I, I see this as something that I could do better in the church, um

45:47.00
Kevin Shock
but it but it takes a lot of it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of energy. And I think it's easy for me to default to a, why are they doing things this way? Or why why don't they see things this way or whatever it might be?

46:04.90
Kevin Shock
instead of really trying to listen for, and i'm I'm not calling anyone who's in the church my enemies, I'm not saying that. um But, no, I remembered what I was gonna say before, and that is that we're all living in anxious times, and sometimes the anxiety goes up the chain. So if people in congregations are anxious about things, chances are I'm gonna end up being anxious about them being anxious about things.

46:35.30
Kevin Shock
if That makes sense.

46:35.66
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

46:38.46
Kevin Shock
um And and I think that there. There must be ways for us. For me. To. First of all, not cling to that anxiety. ah But second of all, also. Dissipate that anxiety a little bit. Yeah.

47:07.47
Kevin Shock
But like again, that takes work. That means you got to be on the phone talking to people. It means you have to meet with them. It means that, you know, some, some of the, some of the long list of things that you have to do, don't get done for a few days because you're tending to something else or someone else. Um, yeah.

47:32.22
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

47:34.10
Kevin Shock
Yeah. I don't know if that really answered the question, but i but with God's help and humility, that's that's how that's how it's possible.

47:38.42
Nathan Pile
That did. Yeah.

47:41.97
Kevin Shock
to And and taking a taking a stance of forgiveness, I think that's the only way that it's possible.

47:52.81
Nathan Pile
Yeah, but doing all of that, as you've said, is it takes positioning and work on our part.

47:53.85
Kevin Shock
Yup

48:01.56
Nathan Pile
Um,

48:04.75
Nathan Pile
that adds to, you know, your day-to-day workload adds to trying to be the person that God his is, is forming us to be.

48:18.27
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

48:19.80
Nathan Pile
And I think it. I think in the last two years, maybe maybe it's three years, but in the last two years, um that work isn't drastically different than it was like five years ago or 10 years ago. It just feels like it has more of a toll.

48:45.20
Nathan Pile
on me personally than it did before.

48:46.63
Kevin Shock
Mm-hmm. Well.

48:48.63
Nathan Pile
Like it wasn't that you didn't, it wasn't that there wasn't conflicts and and and and trying to figure out how we forgive and live humbly and and and do those, be compassionate, but it feels harder right now.

49:05.85
Kevin Shock
Yeah.

49:06.14
Nathan Pile
I don't know if it I don't if it really is, it just, ah right now, it just feels that way, I don't know.

49:06.53
Kevin Shock
Um.

49:11.77
Kevin Shock
Well, I think it feels that way. It probably is.

49:14.18
Nathan Pile
Yeah.

49:15.13
Kevin Shock
I mean, that's just that's the reality of being a human being. If something feels difficult for you to do, then it is difficult for you to do.

49:24.70
Nathan Pile
sure sure

49:25.65
Kevin Shock
And and I think that, you know, there's there's a lot that has happened in the past five years and.

49:35.58
Kevin Shock
All of what has happened has made it I don't know if it's made it easier, but it's it you definitely see people taking advantage of it.

49:48.40
Kevin Shock
People in power seeking to divide people because a divided people are easier to control.

49:49.62
Nathan Pile
Sure. Yeah.

50:02.06
Kevin Shock
And um i I think I lament sometimes that um you know, well, love our love our enemies. we We think that the, um we might think that the enemies are the people who live across the street from us or the people that we encounter in our church or in our former church or but whatever it might be, ah people we have disagreements with, but

50:19.07
Nathan Pile
Hmm. Hmm.

50:31.39
Kevin Shock
I think if we're not gonna personalize enemies, I don't wanna name anyone and specifically specifically, but it's clear that that people who are completely bought into the world's values,

50:45.15
Kevin Shock
um greed, hoarding wealth, um even just an assertion to control things in a way that you want to,

51:00.94
Kevin Shock
Like that's that's our enemy. and And I think the people who do that stuff are just as bound to that way of being as we are. there there They're captive to it just the way that people who aren't powerful are.

51:19.57
Kevin Shock
yeah

51:23.93
Kevin Shock
it's a think I think being ultra rich is, well, I have opinions about that. I think it's immoral. I also think that it's isolating. It can't be a good life. It can't be an enjoyable life.

51:48.03
Kevin Shock
So anyway.

51:49.17
Nathan Pile
Yeah. All right. Um, thank, uh, some additional texts, the, uh, Genesis chapter 45 verses three through 11 and verse 15, this is Joseph, uh, forgiving his brothers, uh, is that scene. And so, um, uh, here in the 45th chapter of Genesis, Psalm 37.

52:13.46
Nathan Pile
verses one through 11 and 39 to 40, the lowly shall possess the land and they will delight in abundance in the abundance of peace. And then 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verses 35 to 38 and 42 to 50, the mystery of the resurrection of the body.

52:35.32
Nathan Pile
And so, um mrs again, Paul here writing to the people of Corinth about that part of the mystery of what of of God's revelation in Jesus.

52:51.47
Nathan Pile
Kevin, as always, I appreciate your reflections and digging into things.

52:57.29
Kevin Shock
and yours.

52:58.97
Nathan Pile
um And for those of you listening, as always, thanks for listening, but continue to feel free to share with us your reflections if there was something in this passage that really stuck out to you about how you live in compassion and love as a disciple of Christ. ah Feel free to share that with Kevin and I on in and in the email at the end of the podcast here or on social media.

53:28.89
Nathan Pile
We hope to tend our faith with you again soon. Grace to you.

53:33.85
Kevin Shock
and peace.