Coaching Skills For Leaders
From East Germany to Empowering Leaders: The Transformative Journey of Jana Hendrickson
Have you ever wondered what shapes the heart and mind of your podcast hosts? Embark on a captivating journey where Neil interviews Jana as she unveils her multicultural past, the life-altering impact of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the winding road that led her to become the coach she is today. Her stories of growing East German roots, explorative adventures, and settling in the United States offer a rich backdrop to understanding the profound influence of personal history on professional coaching philosophy.
Navigating life's twists and turns can be a testament to one's resilience and self-discovery, and that's precisely what we uncover in our most reflective chapter yet. Jana dives into her transformative shift from finance to life coaching, igniting a heartfelt discussion on the essence of authenticity, the embrace of emotional intelligence, and the significance of listening—indispensable tools for leadership and personal growth. Witness her evolution from a novice to a Master Coach of 15 years who values the depth of change over the allure of quick fixes.
Rounding off our episode, we tackle the nuanced challenge of managing emotional responses within the coaching relationship. Jana lends her insight on the toughest sessions she's navigated, her approach to nonviolent communication, and the rich emotional vocabulary that serves as her compass. We also share personal anecdotes, the literary influences that have shaped our thoughts, and the lessons we've learned in pursuing personal growth and effective coaching. Join us to uncover the layers of coaching that reach far beyond the surface, for a discussion that promises to resonate with leaders and individuals alike.
Have you ever wondered what shapes the heart and mind of your podcast hosts? Embark on a captivating journey where Neil interviews Jana as she unveils her multicultural past, the life-altering impact of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the winding road that led her to become the coach she is today. Her stories of growing East German roots, explorative adventures, and settling in the United States offer a rich backdrop to understanding the profound influence of personal history on professional coaching philosophy.
Navigating life's twists and turns can be a testament to one's resilience and self-discovery, and that's precisely what we uncover in our most reflective chapter yet. Jana dives into her transformative shift from finance to life coaching, igniting a heartfelt discussion on the essence of authenticity, the embrace of emotional intelligence, and the significance of listening—indispensable tools for leadership and personal growth. Witness her evolution from a novice to a Master Coach of 15 years who values the depth of change over the allure of quick fixes.
Rounding off our episode, we tackle the nuanced challenge of managing emotional responses within the coaching relationship. Jana lends her insight on the toughest sessions she's navigated, her approach to nonviolent communication, and the rich emotional vocabulary that serves as her compass. We also share personal anecdotes, the literary influences that have shaped our thoughts, and the lessons we've learned in pursuing personal growth and effective coaching. Join us to uncover the layers of coaching that reach far beyond the surface, for a discussion that promises to resonate with leaders and individuals alike.
Welcome to the Coaching Skills for Leaders podcast with Jana Henderson and Neil Thubron. The purpose of the podcast is to help leaders anywhere develop their coaching skills to transform the lives of those they lead as well as their own. Welcome to another episode of Coaching Skills for Leaders Very special episode this week. I'm honoured to have the opportunity to have a special guest on the podcast and to be interviewing my co-host, Jana Hendrickson.
Speaker 2:What? Hello, how are you Very, very nervous over here, neil? Because I have no idea what you're going to ask me and I'm not being interviewed a lot these days.
Speaker 1:Actually, do you know what? I'm quite nervous as well. I want to do a really good job with this discussion, because the reason that the idea popped into my head and it fairness on yarn, the idea did pop into my head to do this was I'm not sure how well the community that listened to apple cars know you, or menu, yeah and so I thought it'd just be an opportunity to really give you a chance to share so people can know a little bit about you, and I thought I'd structure it a little bit so they can find out about you, then a bit about coaching and then a bit about leadership and coaching. So I was going to kind of structure it in that way. So I have thought about all right?
Speaker 2:oh, apparently, so yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I've done a bit of research as well. And what if you? If you Google Yana Hendrickson online and I'd encourage anyone listening to this to do that is go to Yana's YouTube channel. I didn't know she had a YouTube channel.
Speaker 2:That'd be funny if you do that.
Speaker 1:I went to look at this YouTube channel and there's some videos there from 12 years ago. That's right, and you look so young.
Speaker 2:I was very young. Yes, I do know that they're still there, those videos, and I have intentionally not taken them down because I do think it's sometimes nice to have you know, to show people the progression of the work and stuff.
Speaker 1:But some great content as well some great, great content. But what I found first I listened to a couple of videos is you had an Australian accent did I well.
Speaker 2:So for everybody listening, just so that's clear, first of all, I'm German by origin and I lived in Germany my whole you know childhood, young adulthood, until I was 20 just just over 21 and then then I moved to England. So I don't know how I sounded exactly Australian, but I did definitely have a variety of accents, especially in the younger years. So, yeah, those videos were, for sure, done in my early days. So I started coaching in 2009, which you know. I don't know how you feel about this, but when I think of 2009, it sounds like it was yesterday, but we're in 15 years on from that, which is just so strange in my head. But yeah, so I would imagine that I sounded a bit more, a bit different than I do now.
Speaker 1:It is fascinating when you think time goes, because actually you're right, I hear people say it was one of the businesses I can't remember, like it was one of the businesses I can't remember, it was one of the big businesses, like Uber or something that they started in like 2012. And you're right, okay, that was yesterday, and they're like this massive, established company. Anyway, let's, let's dive in. Um. So I thought it'd be useful just to get kind of a, a picture, a story of your journey to where you're at now. And the way I'd like to do that is if you were writing a book about your life so far and you had a number of chapters in that book, what would be the headings of those chapters and one sentence about what happens in that chapter of?
Speaker 2:those chapters and one sentence about what happens in that chapter. Wow, okay, no easy start here Putting me right on it. Okay, so I was actually just talking to somebody yesterday, just in a side comment, saying that I was on my third life because I had the first life, which is the first book, I would call it even of my life, which was sort of that childhood chapter, being in Germany, growing up in East Germany, being eight when the wall came down. You know those things that people find. People find that it's stuff interesting. Right, for me it was just another day and there were more toys on the shelf. Suddenly, but really that chapter till I moved to England. And then, when I was 21 and moved to england and I didn't um, unlike some people think, I didn't move there for my studies, but I ended up studying there as well. So I moved with my gen, my then german boyfriend, um, for work. Really, we just wanted an adventure and start to work in england. But so then my second chapter, my second book, would be and I'll come back to the titles but my second book or life was really all that the 11 years that I spent with that specific person that I also got married to and and the time that I lived in England on, you know, in Leicester for six years and then in North Leicestershire a little bit for, uh, another five years, so 11 years total and then I feel like I had uh kind of a an interlude of four years of traveling around the world as a nomad and being single again and, you know, divorcing and all of that stuff which there was. You know, that's in and of itself a movie, I think. And then, and then my third life started when I met my husband in 2015,. My second husband and then, you know, moving to America and having children and living in the States and becoming a resident here. So I am on my third life Now. Chapter titles or book titles.
Speaker 2:I feel like the first book is probably really like a picture perfect kind of childhood it's probably what I would call it because or textbook childhood. I feel like I've had very little concerns and worries in my life at that time. You know, east Germany felt really safe. We were out a lot, outside a lot, we would be in our allotment where we'd grow things. I think the only drawback from that time was probably that I was allergic to pretty much everything food-wise, fruit-wise nuts and all those kinds of things, lots of vegetables, and I think actually I'm finding out I still am, but that's a whole other chapter. So my point is that so that was like a happy childhood book.
Speaker 2:And then you know, all the twenties that I spent in England, um, a little bit into my early thirties was like I would call it growing up, you know, learning a lot about myself. Um, obviously, you know being in a different culture in England. I loved living in England. I was just talking to somebody and showing them pictures yesterday of my chickens and ducks and guinea fowls and baby chicks that I used to have, you know, on a farm and that was really really wonderful and lovely while it lasted and I wouldn't want to miss it, but it feels like an entirely different life to me now. So that was kind of like I would maybe call it the farm life, because England to me is very green and I think the pubs and the culture are kind of cute. Not everybody would. I guess it depends on what you focus on when you think about England. There are some aspects that are not so great, but I had a really lovely time doing my degree, undergraduate degree, um, undergraduate degree and um, so that was like a happy living, the good you know, kind of living the, the green british lifestyle.
Speaker 2:And and now the third life, um, a title for that book might be something like um, like two words kind of. Two things come to my mind. One is about living the good life. I feel like we really are living the good life and the other is authenticity, because I feel like if there was one thing that I was that I feel more of these days is being just very fully myself, and that might be in part because, know, I'm in my 40s now and it's you know you get to learn about yourself a lot when you go through things and you know a big breakup and you know while traveling and such. But I think I just feel really solid in my marriage with our little unit, our two girls, and we get to have a really amazing life. I feel like um, where we are in in Michigan, so it's really living a, a beautiful.
Speaker 1:It's living a beautiful life it's interesting you call it the good life because actually in the 70s there was a program, a comedy on, in the UK, called the Good Life, and it was about a couple that decided to give up working in corporate life and they started basically producing vegetables and having chickens and having animals in their garden.
Speaker 2:I get that. I get that we don't actually have any animals. Now I will just clarify. But we live in a very nature-y environment. We have a lot of land around us in our home and we have Lake Superior right outside the door and beaches and mountains and hikes and stuff. But we have done certain things to live more sustainably, for sure. We're just not growing our own vegetables. You'd be a very glamorous farmer. I can say, well, yeah, glamorous to the extent that we just bought a cow share or herd share, it's called where we basically bought part of a cow so we can have raw milk. That's about as glamorous as it's gonna be. Does that mean you've got to go milk it? No, no, no, we get it delivered, but in michigan, michigan doesn't allow for raw milk and in general, uh to be sold, and so the only way is that you own a part of a cow okay, that's interesting because then it's yours, so that's something I didn't know about you that you own part of account that's pretty recent.
Speaker 2:and we also have a chicken you know an egg lady where we get duck eggs and chicken eggs because we go through a lot of eggs Okay.
Speaker 1:I didn't know you could get timeshares on cows and chickens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's basically what that is. Yeah, a timeshare on a cow.
Speaker 1:So, if you take those three books, those three elements of your life, what do you take away from those that have shaped who you are now?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, so much, Unbelievably much, I think, from the first chapter, the first book. That was sort of up until 20, lots of just happy scope to play and explore. I think we were kind of lucky in that we did get quite a bit of freedom to be outside, to play on playgrounds, play with friends, play in the garden allotment that we had, swim in lakes whenever it was sunny summer weather is what I'm trying to say. So lots of freedom and exploration. And I went to one and the same school from the age of six to 18. And I think that meant that I got to foster really good relationships with teachers. I largely enjoyed going to school, you know, which is kind of funny sometimes when we tell people that we're, you know, free learning or unschooling our kids, but I had a decent experience there and so it felt like a really good and balanced way of growing up in a safe environment. And so what I think?
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, two things that kind of came out of that one I got a lot of work ethic, I think, from my parents, um, from the East German way of working, from working hard for something you know, building up resilience. I got quite a bit of resilience from all my allergies and all the treatments that I received as a child, I think, because I had to be to go to the doctor all the time and get shots and, you know, get tested and do asthma things and all that kind of stuff. So medical resilience definitely, and from that time, um, uh, so I think yeah. So work ethic is one thing that probably is leftover, and then the other is just you know a good set of beliefs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Good set of beliefs, and and as a as a good basis for life, I think my parents, you know. Now, being a parent, I feel like my parents did a lot of stuff really well.
Speaker 1:And what about the second book? What do you take away from that? That's kind of who you are now.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. Well, in that second book there were a like that was really shaped by transformations, right? So I went from, even though I stayed with the one person for the same time, which is partly why it might be tricky to Google me and search me, because I have had three different last names it comes up.
Speaker 1:Well, certainly first name that comes up, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:So I have a maiden name and a first married name and now Hendrickson.
Speaker 2:But the second book was a lot of transformations, because I went from training as a journalist and marketeer and working as a marketeer in England to doing the undergrad in a bachelor's degree in advertising and marketing communications. Then I changed, you know, careers, so to speak, after six years in that field into finance. So I became a chartered accountant in the UK and you know really more like struggled my way through that but was an accountant for four and a half years until I was time and exam qualified. And then, you know, I realized very early on in that time that that was probably not where I was going to grow old in terms of my career. But you know, there was a significant shift then in 2009, moving into coaching and doing my trainings and becoming self-employed in 2010. So then I transferred, like basically transitioned again in terms of career to coaching, to coaching, and in that time you know, there was oh and I became.
Speaker 2:You know I got married in 2009 and divorced in 2000. Well, it ended up being 17, but really in 2014. And so there was a lot of transitions. Right, that chapter is all about transitions for me figuring out what I want, how I want to. You know how I want to show up, what do I want to bring to the world? And because of my career change history, I just had done a lot of career change work and coaching at first, which you can see on those YouTube videos, because I'm interviewing career changers and yeah, and I think, and then I got. I think the end of that book is probably about really, um, opening my world view wider up, because even though I had been a young person that has already been to england and spain when before I was even 18 and moved to England at a young age, I then started traveling to the states quite a bit for things that were coaching or personal development related and that really expanded my view and then I started meeting nomads and that's kind of gotten me to that next chapter.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, lots and lots of transitions in that transition, all that, those, those transitions, you know career, career transitions, relationship transitions, country transitions. What, how's that, how have you taken that and how's that shaped Now?
Speaker 2:I think I just gained a lot of confidence in that time Because really, I think confidence I heard recently described as self-trust, and I think that's a really beautiful way to think about it, because it was through the actions and the decisions that I took that I learned that I could be okay. So that goes all the way from, you know, trusting myself to go self-employed, which I had never seen coming at the time. Trusting in that I could figure that out and be earning money. Trusting myself to go self-employed, which I had never seen coming at the time. Trusting in that I could figure that out and be earning money. Trusting myself to pursue something that wasn't the standard career. Trusting myself to go travel by myself a lot, and I've never even like in Africa or places that might be considered less safe, I never really felt unsafe anywhere and so just have. And I was lucky, I have to say, you know, I was never robbed or anything like that, but I never felt unsafe in that way and learned to just rely on myself a lot.
Speaker 2:And you know, of course, the decision to leave my first husband was really, really hard. It took me years to arrive there, years, really, really hard. It took me years to arrive there, years, um, and that, you know, gave me that, it affirmed me in the end, because I needed to believe that there was that kind of relationship that I saw other couples have was also available to me, which I then found pretty quickly in my relationship with my husband, chris, and so we parted in relatively positive ways. My first husband and I I would say, because I do care about him and I think he's a wonderful person I think we just couldn't figure out some. We didn't have tools. I don't know, I don't know how people think about their first long, real, serious relationships, but I feel like, looking back, we just simply did not have the right tools or the right support or the right help to figure out our problems.
Speaker 2:And by the time I met my husband, I'd done a lot of work. I'd done, like you know, a good five years of person development work and he had done, you know, some of his own as well. So it was kind of different, um. So, yeah, shaping, um, shaping me in terms of self-confidence and trust and into this authenticity, like where I could just truly there's no part I need to hide, there's just like me being myself, um, as I am and um know developing more certainty or solidity, I don't know. It feels like more solid kind of feet in the ground.
Speaker 1:It sounds like a really strong belief that you've developed around trusting in yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I feel like, no matter what would happen, as long as I have a passport and a credit card or some way of paying for anything, I will be fine. And now it's a little different because I have my children and I, you know, I think my, my major concerns have shifted, you know, to either myself being sick or them getting sick or dying, you know, as any parent probably has ever felt, self being sick or them getting sick or dying, you know, as any parent probably has ever felt. But as long I just learned self-reliance, like I learned no matter where I went, like there were times, even in Hawaii, like very Western times, where I did not know where I was going to sleep that night. I just, you know, I couldn't find an apartment or I couldn't find an Airbnb or I couldn't get, you know, I didn't want to spend time like $300 in a Waikiki hotel or whatever. I was running low on money, things like that.
Speaker 2:And the in the coaching realm, I got gained a lot of self-confidence and trust because I had two years. So, from 2010 to 12, I had two years on my own, self-employed, you know, in my toolkit of coaching clients, and then I joined Tony Robbins in 2012 to 2015. So I had three years of having private clients and Tony Robbins clients and I went to all of the events several times over. So I just I coached such a breadth of people from 21 to 71 years old all around the world. That led me to feeling just like, whatever people would bring, I could help them. You know, there came a faith that it's about the process. You know, ultimately there are patterns. People have similar problems. They just express in different ways and I can help them, no matter what. So I just you know, I just you know I didn't, I didn't feel afraid to coach a CEO versus a student or you know that sort of thing and that that leads really nicely onto the next section.
Speaker 1:I wanted to kind of explore a little bit was, you know, you kind of said you became a coach, but but it didn't just happen.
Speaker 2:So no, what was it?
Speaker 1:what motivated you, what was the, what was the moment when you go?
Speaker 2:actually, this is the reason I want to become a coach oh, I fought it hard actually, so so, no, yeah, it didn't just fall in my lap like that. Um, I think where to start. So it really began with me being quite unhappy in my own life and it expressed itself in two areas. One was my relationship with my husband and one was at work and the the first thing I did was actually to try to get fit and healthy and strong and lose some weight and, like, do the things I could control, because the other things didn't seem like I could control them very well. Um, so I, I got really fit, I worked out a ton, I did P90X twice. Whoever, if, if, if that means anyone to anything, anything to anyone. Um, so I, you know, I just really focused my efforts on on fitness. Um, but then in 2009, I went to a careers fair in Erz Court in London because I'd seen it in one of the first psychologies magazines. Psychologies UK started a magazine and I saw an ad for it in the magazine. I was like, well, I don't know what the heck to do, so I better go and figure it out and maybe there's something in this.
Speaker 2:At this fair and at this fair, I met a UK based life coach. She was young and had a big baby belly. We just got chatting. I had never heard of what a coach is, but we got chatting and I thought you know what? I'm not figuring it out, so maybe she can help me figure it out. What have I got to lose? And we ended up working together for a year and it was a pretty painstaking process really to dissect what it was that I was enjoying about my different careers, my degree, my work that I'd done in Germany and England, what I wasn't enjoying, what I was foreseeing for my life. And she always kind of led with this underlying question of what do I want my life to be like, rather than what do I want my job title to be. And that was really helpful. And so we looked at various different options of journalism, event management, you know, all sorts of things that were kind of in my ballpark that I was good at.
Speaker 2:And eventually we came to a conversation, maybe 10 months in or so, where I shared something about an incident at work with my manager at the time and she said, you know, this sounds like you were having a coaching conversation with her. You know, have you ever thought about coaching as a career? And I was like, oh no, I could never do that. Then I'd be your competition, it'd be weird. No, no, no, I can't do that. No, I could never do that. Then I'd be your competition, it'd be weird. No, no, no, I can't do that. And um, but then when I put the phone down, I was like, oh man, I could do like this for a living. I'd be amazing, you know. So I was like had this epiphany from that call and in those days it was literally all phone calls, right, the early coaching world.
Speaker 2:And within four days from that conversation I had registered a website, registered for my coach training, like basically started making plans of like having this be my career, because it just felt really right. And there was one thing that I said to her and I said repeatedly over the years, which was like if I could just get paid to learn about humans and you know what makes them tick and psychology man, that would be like a brilliant job for me. And so that's kind of how it started. And then it took a little while from there to start my training and complete my training, because I took it quite seriously. You know, I didn't want to just go like do a weekend course, I needed to be ICF accredited and whatnot, and so in that time, which was maybe another nine months, I prepared for my self-employment and then handed in my resignation with like being sick to my stomach and shaking, shaking knees, and then, uh, yeah, that was it. The 16th of August 2010 was the last day I ever worked wow, and and the last day you ever worked.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting expression.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you say it like that because I really there went to exchange my time for money and I I really felt like it was something that I had to work at. I was good at my work and which is kind of making it harder, because you know, if you're good at what you do, then it's not as obvious why you should be unhappy about it. But I just I was dragging my feet, I didn't want to go into work. Um, every Sunday was like, oh, another week, here we go. So it felt like work and anything that's come since then, no matter, even if it was hard times, like we've done long days, lots of coaching sessions, in the time of tony robbins especially, um.
Speaker 2:Or when I I set up two conferences um personal development conferences in berlin in 2014 and 15. That was a lot of work, but it didn't feel like hard work, like it felt in finance, and that's why I feel like it was the last day I really worked. And now we're just, you know, I get to contribute is how I would probably say it or I get to like connect with people a lot, which is really what drives me in my, my life and my work for sure.
Speaker 1:And how would? How would you describe yourself as a coach, If you would describe yourself to someone?
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting, different at different stages. For sure, the coach that I was at the beginning was probably a lot more, you know, hanging onto structures, coaching exercises, trying to do things the right way. I held on to it's just a funny side note I held on to my membership with the Institute of Chartered Accountants for three more years after going self-employed, just in case I needed to be an accountant again. So I was kind of scared. I would always say I'm a life coach, but I used to be a chartered accountant just to make up for the lack of status that I just gave up with my job.
Speaker 2:So very, very different coach then with my job. So very, very different coach then, much more confident as the years went by, of course. And then I think, in the Tony Robbins times, you know, they do want a certain style and energy with the coaching and that just never felt like me. Really I'm a much more grounded person than this. Like, all right, let's do this, raise your arms. You know, chaka, that was just not me, and so I can do that for a certain amount of time.
Speaker 1:I've never seen you do that before no, exactly, it was just like. It's like yeah, you know no, I mean people that aren't watching that I know I can, can't you know.
Speaker 2:So it's obviously. You know, tony brings a lot of masculine energy and and he brings a lot of energy and he wants to be in peak state. So we'd always have to be in peak state for coaching and I felt like that was actually breaking rapport more often than not, because that's not where my people were, my clients were finding themselves at, maybe after an event, and they're pumped and I can be excited with them, but not really every single time. So I started to question that approach and started to look outside of that world for something that felt more like it was going to move the needle more than the enthusiasm, because motivation and enthusiasm I didn't feel like was actually creating sustainable change.
Speaker 2:And so I went into more of the NLP work, the ontological coaching work, which is much more about, I guess, moving out of your own system, the stuff that's seemingly in the way that we can't even see because it's blind spots, as well as childhood programming. I got much more interested in early childhood development, how we store information, what is actually getting in the way when we're trying to accomplish something and we can't get there, and I felt like I found a bit more of the Holy Grail with these two approaches, to be honest, because it seemed like what we were actually working on was the way of being and the way that the person's being would show up in certain situations, as opposed to just pursuing a goal, if that makes sense yeah, yeah, a lot of coaching is based around goal orientation, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, achieving a goal, so I know I totally get it. So you're focusing on the person and how they need to develop rather than the goal itself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know Marcia Arenas put it like in her book. You know, coach the person, not the goal or something of that nature, or the problem. I think she said don't coach the problem, coach the person, something like that. But for me there was such a big difference, you know, when we started looking at why the person might want to pursue the specific goal, what was actually underneath it, focusing much more on the meta outcomes, aka the outcomes that are really what we think we will get from doing the thing, and really working more with becoming a different person, which is just inherently more about transformation than it is about pursuit of some hedonistic goal yeah, yeah, yeah, and you're incredibly talented at peeling the layers away from people and getting to the core.
Speaker 1:And a thought just popped into my head, actually, that with the the leaders that are listening to this, rather than the coaches that are listening to this what, what little things could they do in the coaching conversations they're having that might help them get a layer below, that might get to more of the human that's a big question, let's see.
Speaker 2:So I think ultimately I I don't feel like super strongly affiliate to the term coach anymore, especially now that I'm you know you asked about the stages of harm of showing up.
Speaker 2:Now I'm moving more into academia, right? So I'm doing my phd in professional coaching and human development and so I'm getting a whole different um take on personal development and human development, and so I'm getting a whole different um take on personal development and human development change. And so I don't. You know, I feel like any leader that is working with people you know, whether they consider themselves a coach or not, is really doing this kind of work, which is to see what you know the person would like and what drives them, what motivates them, what you know where their intrinsic motivation lies, and to create something together and to be excited about a direction that you're moving into together. Because I think if you're the only one as a leader that is excited about a direction that you're moving into together, because I think if you're the only one as a leader that is excited about the direction, then it's going to be quite a struggle. But if you can enroll the team you know or the people that work with you, I think then it can be an adventure.
Speaker 1:So really I think, Sorry, no, it's just going to go on, you go Okay okay, let's see.
Speaker 2:So you asked me what you know, what a leader can do in terms of um. How did you word it?
Speaker 1:I forget now so I was just curious about what, what tips we could give to help the leaders listening rather than the coaches listening. Instead of coaching the problem, coach the person.
Speaker 2:Right, right, you know, I do think that it just starts with the leader. You know, most of the change that I think a leader would aspire to create starts within them and not outside of them, and so the tips or the tricks would be introspection, pausing, understanding your own needs and drives which kinds of things are you actually seeking to fulfill from the way that you're working and what you're working on? Um, and just more silence, I think, um, less disturbance and and more the listening is. You know, we talk a lot about on the coaching podcast here, about just that skill of listening, and I think a lot of people have a really, really hard time with that. I just had a conversation two days ago, three days ago, with somebody where I noticed, every time I started a sentence mid-sentence, I was aborted with something else they had to say. For a long time, I barely got to finish one sentence, and so it's not even like my sentence, weren't that that important?
Speaker 1:but it was so noticeable that the person had a really hard time just being quiet and listening, um, so I do still think that's one of the key tasks, um, as a leader yeah, and it's interesting actually, because a question I wanted to ask you was when you, you know you coach a lot of senior leaders, executive executives and businesses and business owners and so on, is you know what? What do you see that is either behavior or beliefs that leaders have that hold them back from being able to lead with coaching their own stories.
Speaker 1:Okay go on.
Speaker 2:So what I mean by that is that what gets in the way of them actually approaching anything or anyone with more of a coaching stance is all the beliefs and the stories they have about themselves, about the person in front of them, about the business, about the goals, and usually the kind of currently still unnurtured skill of self-reflection and being able to take it apart a little bit. Because if a leader is just focused on making people do stuff or accomplishing business goals, there's just very, very little space for curiosity, for care, care, for wholesome conversations, for even just the pause of like. So why am I actually pursuing this with this person? Like, what is this actually about for me, right? Like what's in it for me? What's the what's the what for of all of this?
Speaker 2:So the ability to question oneself is usually a little bit diminished, and I blame this on the education system largely and parenting styles, because the generation that's currently in leadership, I think, was trained to like. They were trained to follow and be told rather than to self-reflect and intentionally choose what they're focusing on. So you know a little bit like you go to a class and you're being told like these are the topics that you need to learn and know, and then people go from school to university and to the corporate graduate scheme and then they land in this career and then they're like, oops, how did I get here, you know, when they're 45 or 30, 35. And so I do think there's, you know, something to be said of the environment that they grew up in, but usually it's. What stands in the way of better leadership is the inability to pause and and consider one's stories okay, and that's come up a few times in this.
Speaker 1:You know the conversation in the last 10-15 minutes is about that silence, about pausing, being comfortable with that, and I think what I just heard you say was about their own story getting in the way. Their own um belief systems belief it's the awareness, right.
Speaker 2:so the the story is about understanding that what is in the way is just a story, even just that, right. So the oftentimes I feel like people have what they think and take it as set in stone, as in that's it as factual, as opposed to having the ability to consider that maybe that's not the full truth or that's just one version of the reality, and they are just so steeped and naturally, as we all are so steeped in our world and our way of life and living and thinking that we think that's just how it is, you know, and there's not without reflection or without outside help, I think it's hard to have real paradigm shifts, real paradigm shifts which is interesting.
Speaker 1:So with yeah, so if you don't have a coach, then it's difficult for you to unpack who you are to then coach someone Something you also said, actually, which you said they're focused on achieving the goals of the business, which doesn't allow time it wasn't exactly what you said but it doesn't allow time for the coaching conversations and actually, that's a belief in itself, just that they're two different things.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But if you had the coaching conversation and you got the people empowered and people being the best they could be, then the business would look after itself.
Speaker 2:Right and I think that's very true, and I'm thinking of a business leader that I know, of. You know that's pursuing some really, really major growth goals, as so many are right. Major growth goals and I think oftentimes the beliefs that come with that is that certain parts of the business need to be in order. In order to accomplish that, this part needs to grow by X. We need X amounts of people to translate into this revenue number. To grow by X, we need X amounts of people to translate into this revenue number. We need to maybe acquire a couple of businesses.
Speaker 2:It's very out. There are the things that need to happen to grow the business and there's not enough, in my view, about how am I the bottleneck right now to having that business already be at X amount of revenue or valuation? There's not a lot of like how can I really make this team into the team that runs a 1 billion, whatever number, revenue or valuation business? It tends to be more strategic and that's where people feel comfortable, because all these feeling conversations are uncomfortable, right, but it's usually where I feel like there is more transformation available.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting you say that about feeling conversations being uncomfortable, because one of the questions I wrote down here was we haven't talked much in the podcasts about how do you deal with emotions in a coaching conversation as a leader, and I wonder whether it would be worth just maybe helping our listeners with, because certainly personally, I've been in some situations where I've been working with people and it's certainly personally I've been in some situations where I've been working with people and it's got emotional and and and sometimes it's. You know how do I deal with that, you know how do I cope with that as a leader, and so I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know the reason why it so.
Speaker 2:This is where my interests really are when it comes to, you know, child development and psychology.
Speaker 2:Because we cannot, we often get uncomfortable with the feelings of others because we ourselves did not receive the validation for our big feelings when we were zero to three years old, zero to six years old ourselves.
Speaker 2:So the only way we can hold big feelings of other people is by looking at what makes us suppress our own feelings in the first place. And so I think the people that I see that are extremely good at leading big businesses have a very limited capacity to access the breadth and the variety of their own feelings. Often I notice that usually, when there isn't even a vocabulary or a you know, a broader vocabulary for the feelings that they might feel on a daily basis, it's either everything's good, great, happy, or I'm just quote unquote, upset, very British term, usually also upset angry, yeah, peeved, but I say I say you know, like it's very like contained, neat in a box. You know there is no rage, there is no disappointment, you know different words for feelings that people might have. And so, yeah, I I think that we just get really, really uncomfortable when we haven't actually had a lot of exposure to our own feelings being validated.
Speaker 1:And to help. What advice would you give to leaders to help them to broaden their feelings and the depth of their feelings in their business world?
Speaker 2:Well, I actually start this with an emotional scale. Usually, like there's exercises around. You could probably just google emotional scale. It's from plus 10 to minus 10 and it gives you 20 words instead of two for the variety of feelings that you might feel.
Speaker 2:Um, and whenever there is an emotional situation, I would probably just ask them to look at that scale and actually define what it is and how bad it is, because it could be that they're feeling frustrated or bored very different actually in their nature. It could be that they're angry or triggered, which could be a differentiation or nuance, and it could be that this is. You know, people might say a phrase like this is the worst nightmare if there's a crisis at work, but actually, you know, it's about the ways we use those words that you know create our feelings. And so if we just have a an emotional scale of, say, plus 10 to minus 10, and there's some words attached to describe those feelings, we might find that actually we're hopeless or we are uncertain because we don't know how to solve this issue. So I do think it helps to start to reflect and gain some vocabulary in that area, and the other is to again pause right when those big feelings arise, to not react, but take the pause that we humans can take to respond.
Speaker 1:And that emotional scale is a really great tool actually, and I just wonder whether, yeah, I would encourage leaders to look at that, because it might help you and it would definitely be something you could maybe use with your employees or peers or whoever you're having a coaching conversation with.
Speaker 2:At least in terms of the way you're asking the questions, right, because all the ways you use your words, like if, say and I find this is, you know, coaching leaders is very similar to working with little children who have big feelings, because you learn a lot, as every parent out there would probably understand what I mean something and something's gone badly, or some other employee or team members said something upsetting or whatever. If we just kind of smile it off or we shrug it off or, you know, as a leader, we're kind of like just oh, come on, it can't be that bad, right, like this kind of invalidating of feelings, if we do that, it gets bigger and worse and it totally shuts the other person down, whereas if we can meet them where they are and saying, yeah, oh my gosh, I can really see how you'd feel this frustrated about it. And you're helping to frame it in a way by using some feeling words. I do think that you're taking the wind out of the sail, you're helping the person relax and you're helping them clarify what is actually upsetting about it, right? What did they want to have happen?
Speaker 2:And so the words and the language I use with my kids, which is, you know we practice nonviolent communication in our house is usually just helping them feel met where they're at and, you know, acknowledge. Yeah, this is really frustrating. I can totally see how you feel this way. Right, let's figure it out together. What would you like to? You didn't want to have this happen, so what would you like to have happen instead? And so to me? You know, maybe reading a good parenting book or a nonviolent communication book might be a good strategy how to talk to little kids so they will listen. That might be a good book for people to read.
Speaker 1:I've got, which is great. There's some great tips in there. People clean. I've got um, which is, which is great, there's some great tips in there. I've got I'm. I'm got one more big question, then some short questions. I wanted to ask as we wrap up but what's, what's the? What's the hardest coaching conversation that you've had?
Speaker 2:oh my gosh, let's think the hardest coaching conversation I've had. You know, I've had to tally up my sessions for the international coach federation and there's like a well over 2 000 sessions.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot to yeah, yeah, what's the one that stands out? You know that, that you came off and you're rather. That was hard usually I don't.
Speaker 2:I can't think of any specific one because I thankfully you've never had anywhere. Um, you know, I've let me explain differently, so I've just done, um, some studies on psychopathology, which is obviously all like trauma type, you know, disorders, mental disorders, mental health stuff. So I've never really had a lot of that kind of a conversation that I felt I couldn't handle, right. But what? Usually what I would perceive as the hardest conversations are the ones where I felt like I did something wrong or not good or I kind of failed them in some shape or form. So there was one conversation that I can think of and I know who it was with and I don't think they even thought anything of it. But I came off the call and I went on my knees and I was like, oh my God, that was awful. I just totally couldn't help them. I could just see all the missed opportunities of questions not asked and you know how I maybe led them too much.
Speaker 2:Or there was some you know this was in my early days, like maybe in year two or so, and then I just spoke to that person and said look, I wasn't at 100 percent. I don't think this went very well, as well as it could have. Can we repeat the call, basically just offering another conversation? And we did, and it was a better call, I think, when you can tell, like in the initial stages as coach, where you can kind of just tell it was just not a helpful conversation, those are for me the hardest, and nowadays that looks more like I'm really having to like manage my desire to be helpful or valuable and have the trust in the person figuring things out, even if there is no direct link between something I said and an insight they had or something like. So it's um, yeah, it's probably more when I'm like oh, but I really think they should be doing this and I have to like hold, you know, hold that and and respect my model of the world versus their model of the world.
Speaker 2:That still happens every now and then, but a really, really tragically bad coaching call, I don't think I've really ever had okay, right, I'd be surprised if you had to be honest.
Speaker 2:I mean we all have crappy ones, but I don't think like really you know where somebody's died or like something really tragic or where I wasn't sure. I was just studying a lot around trauma, informed coaching, and that raised raised my awareness and I may have had people that you know have confided trauma or you know some personal abuse or certain things that they've struggled with. I've had calls where people confided in me with regards to affairs, alcohol, addiction, pornography, addiction, all these kind of hard topics, but in those moments it's not hard for me, it hard for them yeah, yeah so yeah, I I don't feel like those were hard calls brilliant, okay, thank you.
Speaker 1:Um, so I've got three questions, which probably short answers, which Anna gave me to ask you oh, I love it. Go ahead um so that's my wife, by the way. For the people who don't know who. Anna is so. The first one was what's your favorite quote?
Speaker 2:Oh, my favorite quote. That's a tricky one. I mean at the bottom of my emails I think that's kind of where I live, at least the most it says I'll read it out, so I don't jumble it. If I can, I won't let me open it. It's essentially really about creating transformation rather than change. So it says change is a function of altering what you are doing to improve something that's already possible in your reality, and transformation is the function of altering what you are doing to improve something that's already possible in your reality, and transformation is the function of altering the way that you are being to create something that is currently not possible in your reality. So I love that, um, but I don't say I wouldn't say that I have any other favorite quotes that I quote a lot okay, okay, all right.
Speaker 1:So next question what is a book that you gift the most often or that you would recommend to people the most?
Speaker 2:Oh, so many. Okay, let's see Untethered Soul, probably by Michael A Singer, One of my all-time favorites um yes, I have.
Speaker 2:I've it's grown quite a bit since the phd, but, um, I do love that and I do, um, I do like let's see what else we have here. Oh, my god, books that I've recommended a lot. It's funny, actually, because because I coach a lot of male clients, um, and this is, I guess this says something about my coaching work in some ways there's a couple of books that I recommend a lot that are from david data. Uh, for example, the um the way of a superior man yeah, yeah, you bought that for me actually that I've gifted.
Speaker 1:I've gifted it's uh, it quite a difficult read as a man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's challenging and it's kind of it's usually what the man kind of needs at the time, even when they don't really think that they need that. So I've gifted that many, many times, I feel like. And there's also a book by David data called intimate communion, which explains sort of the feminine and masculine essences and the energies and how we struggle, because even in leadership, you know, that can be a real big challenge because if we only have one energy that we lead with, whether it's masculine or feminine, we tend to stumble into problems. So I'm happy to have another conversation about this, maybe a separate podcast about how that shows up. But it shows up in relationships, of course, that people tend to want for fulfillment and completeness, but also very much in leadership. So those are kind of coming to mind first, but I'm sure there's a million other books.
Speaker 1:There are loads, and I know there are loads. You've recommended me over the years.
Speaker 2:Recently, things like Die With Zero I really liked. Die With Zero is brilliant absolutely.
Speaker 1:I've given that to quite a few clients and it has changed their whole mindset on how they're going to plan their life Exactly. So what makes you laugh out loud?
Speaker 2:My kids and my husband. My husband, in a way that's very cheesy. Usually he has this, I don't know, he he's like a kid of the 80s, um, in some ways, and he has this very cheesy dad humor, I think, um, and he made me laugh when we first met because he made a in a circle of you know, a community of people. He made a dance move like john travolta in the saturday night fever movie and so he still makes me laugh like that. And, of course, my girls. I mean this, the stuff that they come out with. They're three and a half and five and a half, so they say a lot of funny things. So it's not a day that goes by that we don't laugh.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, okay. So, as we wrap up, I guess, one final thought. What question would it have been good of me to ask you? That would be useful for the people who are listening to know about you oh boy, you're really packing it on with those hard questions.
Speaker 2:No, let me. I do want to give it a good thought, though. What question could you have asked me? Um, that would have given our leaders, our listeners, some more insight as to who I am as a coach. I think is what you said.
Speaker 1:How would you want to insert the question?
Speaker 2:I think maybe you know something we just didn't talk much about is that says a lot about me now is why did I decide to do a phd?
Speaker 2:okay, and the answer would be um, there's a couple of things really that motivated me. One was that you know tony robbins talks about this blueprint, a lot that we might have in our minds unconsciously usually about how we think our life will pan out, and for a long time I have said that one day I'll do a doctorate and I thought for a long time it was going to be medical, and I am very, very medically interested. I study a lot around nutrition, exercise, longevity, read a lot, listen to a lot of podcasts around that. But for me, when I found this current degree in professional coaching and human development, it was like the whole course outline and the subject studied were describing me in a nutshell and it was really easy to write my application and my I don't know several pages of personal statement for it and what all the things I had done in those areas, and so it's essentially fulfilling my own dream of acquiring a doctorate. But also there's a couple of things linked to that one.
Speaker 2:To date, I'd always I'm always citing people, I'm always referring to other people's wisdom and theories and exercises and books and podcasts and talks, and I feel like a doctorate really allows you to develop your own voice and develop something original in terms of content, and that speaks to two things for me.
Speaker 2:One I really since we are raising our girls without school and we're talking about self-led education I wanted them to see me be self-led in my degree, which I am, because the way that my university works is just me and my supervisor and I determine my own. I basically design a lot of the content of what I'm doing. And the other part is that I really wanted my 40s to be about expanding and creating my own body of work, so really deciding what expertise I'm going into, what I want to be known for, and really solidifying with much more depth, I think, what I do as a coach, and I can already tell it's moving me into more of a evidence-based, positive, psychology-based coaching and all around self-actualization and self-transcendence. So I'm just super excited about it. For me it's like such an indulgence to do and not, um, not really dragging my feet with it, and wow, brilliant.
Speaker 1:okay, I'm really pleased that you brought that up at the end, because I think that's an exciting teaser for our listeners that we're gonna have some uh, some new models, some new insights from Dr Jana Hendrickson in the future possibly. So yeah, a couple more years, I think so I'd like to, I'd like to wrap up there, because that's been the time has flown.
Speaker 1:That's been an amazing conversation, thank you so much thank you for your questions well and as I said, I was a bit nervous at the start of that, and I'm delighted to because you're. You're such a you know you were such an amazing coach, you're such an amazing friend and colleague, and so it's great to have an opportunity to put some questions to you that I really wanted to ask. So thank you for your time.
Speaker 2:No, thank you for your curiosity. I appreciate you.
Speaker 1:Okay, so to our listeners, hopefully that was useful. You know a lot more about Yana now and there's some good ideas and content in there that you could potentially take away yourself. Please like, subscribe, leave us comments and feedback. We'd love to hear from you, and I noticed today that we put up some new episodes um recently, and within 24 hours there was like 500 people who listened to them, which I thought was amazing.
Speaker 2:so yeah, to everybody who's listening and love to hear what you think yeah, absolutely, and we'll do the same and I'll turn around the table and I'll be interviewing you next. So I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, great.
Speaker 2:Thanks again, cheers, bye everyone.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Coaching Skills for Leaders podcast with Jana and Neil. If you found the conversation useful, please share with your colleagues and friends. Please also leave us a rating and a review, and if you would like to connect with us directly to discuss your own or your business needs, you will find our contact details in the show notes below.