The Vision Quest Podcast
A podcast about life, sports, and life in sports! Enjoy!
The Vision Quest Podcast
#57 - Scientific Wrestling's Coach Jake Shannon
Technique: Highlight a guest
As your host, I have the privilege of bringing you into the world of wrestling with our esteemed guest, the one and only Coach Jake Shannon. His journey from his early UFC days to wrestling guru is an inspiring tale of determination, grit, and a profound love for the sport. From overcoming financial difficulties and earning a master's degree in Financial Math, Jake's story is a testament to the transformative power of wrestling.
Technique: Make a promise of what you'll learn
Jake doesn't shy away from sharing the harsh realities of wrestling, including the dangers and risks involved in the sport. We'll learn about the early days of wrestling, the potential hazards like headshots and concussions, and the vital importance of safety measures. You'll walk away understanding why defensive training holds such a crucial role in wrestling – a true eye-opener for both enthusiasts and newbies.
Technique: Tantalizing teaser
We'll also dive into the origins and concepts of scientific wrestling, a unique approach crafted by Jake. He opens up about the creation of his content, his effective marketing approach, and the potential of revolutionizing wrestling into a market-based system. With hints of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and the UFC, this discussion will spark your imagination and give you a fresh perspective on wrestling. We'll explore what competitive grappling could look like under professional wrestling rules, and discuss how pro-wrestling and Jiu-Jitsu differ. Get ready for a fresh take on wrestling, one that combines the thrill of competition with the fun of the sport. Tune in and let's get ready to rumble with Coach Jake Shannon!
Get to scientificwrestling.com today!
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All right, everybody, we are back, we are joined here. I think everybody's kind of seen what's going on on YouTube and most likely, instagram and Facebook. We have here and we're in the wrestling world and he is as well. We are with the scientific wrestling guy, with coach Jake Shannon, how you doing today.
Speaker 2:Hey Brad, i'm good man. I appreciate you having me on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, i did. I appreciate you're busy man. I appreciate you coming on. I think right now I have. I have a live video on from you. That is a seven hour live video, are you? Holy shit, that is crazy. Okay, so I love the fact that. So, number one, we just touch base that we're both in sales, right? We both kind of. We both love talking to people and kind of engaging with people and making things, i guess, interesting or answering questions or getting questions answered. So, with that being said, people have questions about you. People, not everybody, knows everything about Jake Shannon. I've talked to Mark Schultz in the past. I've had him on the show, talked him a little bit And I know that he's talked about catch wrestling and catches, catch can and stuff like that. But I was like I don't even I had to start Googling stuff. Never heard of it. So you're, you're immersed in that world. So let's, let's start off first. Jake Shannon, where did you come? Where do you come from? What state are you from originally?
Speaker 2:I'm originally from Colorado. I'm actually back in Colorado now, but in between I went to, i grew up in Colorado. I graduated from the University of Colorado, boulder in 95. Okay, in 94, the year I before I graduated I went and I went to the UFC number two live. I heard about that The first two were here in Denver.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it changed my life. Man, like I was like, oh my God, what in the hell? Right, this is crazy, dude, because I had actually in my youth and you know, i was probably I think I was 21 when I saw the first UFC Yeah, and I never liked pro wrestling, i never liked it. I was like that's the dumbest shit. Pardon my language, oh, you're good. What the fuck? How are you guys into this? This is stupid. Yeah, and then I saw the UFC and I was like yeah oh, my God.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is what it would be like if it was real. It was real, yeah, oh man, and I was like dude. This, i mean dude, it just changed my life And so you know, like I'm 21.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm stupid. I'm full of testosterone. I got a worthless, freaking degree, like. I went to college on a scholarship and I got an English degree. It was so stupid And I go to. I'm like dude, i got to get out of here because there's no, we were having to fly in like we would fly in Pedro Sauer from Salt Lake City in the Boulder Karate We would. We would bring in a couple of the guys Kasek Amunez is one. Okay, most people never heard of this dude, ricardo Miguel People might have heard of Ricardo Miguel on the Jiu Jitsu side And I was like dude, i need to get out of here because there ain't nothing here. So I packed up and moved to California. I had the most opportunities in Northern California, so I went up there and I went and I worked with a guy named Carly Gracie who is a great guy a really great guy and was really helpful for me.
Speaker 2:When I was a young man And I ended up I was dirt poor in San Francisco because I, like I said, i had a worthless degree and it was like a very expensive city like New York. I had no contacts. I didn't know anybody. So, long story short, i got sick of being poor, like really poor, like working like four minimum wage. I've always been a grinder dude, like I can tell about work ethic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i'm like a grinder from day one And that's really what I like about the wrestling. I think why it dovetails with my my own just kind of way of being is just wrestlers tend to be grinders. And anyway, i was in San Francisco, poor as hell, and I was like, dude, i can't even afford Jiu Jitsu. And back then, carly dude, carly, nice guy, but he was still a businessman. He was charging me 200 bucks a month. Back then, shit, yeah, right, and that's before all this like like inflation and all that shit. Like it was crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah So anyway, i was like dude, i went back to grad school. Really I'm a person also that likes to challenge myself, so I went. I was like dude, i need to figure out money. I went to grad school, got my master's degree in financial math, which was like the hardest thing I could have imagined doing. Yeah, did that graduated, got some really nice cushy gigs which then allowed me to do whatever training I wanted. And by that time I we're talking probably 97, 98. Yeah, the wrestlers, the folk stylers were already starting to infiltrate the MMA world grappling scene.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, and I had gotten used to just beating people on sheer, you know kind of conditioning and knowing a few tricks, but I wasn't like really serious, yeah. And these, you know, these guys came in from folk style and I was just getting hammered And I was like what, dude? So I was fortunate because I just, you know, i actually started a Pee Wee wrestling, like in 1977, my mom put me in, yeah, and so I knew a thing or two about wrestling, but it wasn't like my thing. Like you met, like we had talked about earlier, like you know, i had had some illnesses in high school. They kept me out of the wrestling room, yeah, but I knew what was up. And so I was like dude, holy shit, i never thought of wrestling as a martial art, yeah, until I started getting my ass kicked again. I was like dude, oh wow. So then I just dropped all the jiu-jitsu. I was like dude, this stuff is dead in the water. But you know, that was like.
Speaker 2:So, counter to the thinking, everybody in the grappling MMA world was like, oh, jiu-jitsu, this, jiu-jitsu, that. Yeah, i was like no, dude, i'm out in the field testing this. Yeah, you guys have trouble coming when the, when the folk styles figure the shit out. Yeah, so long story short. I just went and dived deep back into wrestling and found a dude in Oakland. His name is Dan Coltrane. Okay, got a little USA wrestling club out in Oakland. I worked out with him for a while, yep, and then I was like dude, i'm going to town, but at the same time I was making so much money in investment banking and mortgage banking, yeah, and I had. I still had no connections in the MMA world. I wanted to take fights and all that because I was in my late twenties, but I just wasn't connected. I didn't have the network to get in and there were hardly any events back then.
Speaker 1:Even with the racing behind you, even with crazy he wasn't really behind me, dude Like.
Speaker 2:I was like the second. I couldn't pay 200 bucks a month. He went behind me, he was gone. Okay, all right, all right, real. Okay, i don't blame him, i want to get paid too. But I mean, i was like so and I had kind of dipped and gone into wrestling and stuff and so I Just wasn't, it just wasn't going and I was like what the hell man? Yeah there weren't a lot of opportunities. It was very, very new. Even back in like the late 90s, it was still new.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah and and I was like you know what I started and this is kind of embarrassing. I started dating a girl. She was kind of out of my league.
Speaker 1:And, and she was like this stripper.
Speaker 2:Well, she was a stripper. She was super hot. Yeah, i was dumb and stupid, right, but she was. She was really into wrestling, into pro wrestling.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, the shit that you thought was dumb.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i was so against it, dude. I mean, all of a sudden I'm like, well, to impress this girl, i'm gonna figure it out. Yep, That's right. So I actually got, i got involved in pro wrestling And you know what dude, like pro wrestling like took off for me? I, it wasn't huge, but you know, i had a WWE try out. Wow, yeah, i toured the US, i trained internationally and stuff, so okay, but I did it.
Speaker 2:Did you know once the I Of you know getting out front of a crowd and Having the rock music playing, all that after a while I kind of realized, man, this is stupid again. You know, it's like this is not me. So I did it for like three years and had great success for such a short period of time, yeah, but then I was like, dude, this is stupid. So At that time I'd been talking with a lot of old-time Pro wrestling guys and they kept telling me because I kept complaining, i'm like man, i, you know, i've always been lanky and there would be these big, like six foot four, 300 pound dudes in pro wrestling, yeah, but they started believing that they were actually good wrestlers. You know, i mean like they started believing the gimmick and I'm like Damn it's challenge man, i got Mike, i could kill all these dudes.
Speaker 2:I, you guys, suck Yeah yeah and I would complain to these old timers. And they're like oh man, well, you need to start figuring out the catches, catch pan. And I'm like what is that? And he's like dude, you realize, pro wrestling used to be real. The stuff you see in the UFC is what it used to be like really Before, before the corruption set in. And I'm like oh, oh, yeah, tell me more. Yeah, like Who? who do I talk to what? Yeah, and so they kept throwing around these names like Carl gotch, billy Robinson, yeah, uh, danny Hodge, yeah, you know, okay, these names. And I'm like okay. So then that set me off on a line of research and I was like oh my god, this is Untapped yep.
Speaker 2:Territory. Yep, and I've always been sales minded, entrepreneurial, yeah, like dude, holy shit, while everybody else is digging I'm gonna own this, i'm gonna own this area and I'm gonna grow it and I'm gonna dominate dude. Yeah so and 20 years later, that's kind of what what has been happening. It's been really a blessing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just kind of watching, just going through a lot of in, like I said, i just get a. I did a short deep dive kind of thing, but watching the evolution of What you had been doing, as far as just kind of what you were talking about to, you've always been about the same kind of energy and things Like that. But as far as watching your eyes were opening up to things as you were going along and kind of watching, i was like shit, this is okay, this is interesting. So catch can wrestling, catches, catch can wrestling. I did, i did a little bit of reading, but it's interesting. Yes, it is like you said It was. It was the WWF, but MMA and UFC style. It was that all the way through, right. So, knowing that and you've talked about a lot of the things that you've been in, but something it happened like you're not able to compete. You had, you had something in in an artery in your neck, correct, right? something happened.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's a it's funny man at like, there's actually a like you know how CTE, like the Concussions and all that stuff, came for the came for the NFL, yep, yep, what I had was called a carotid dissection. Yes, it just means that your carotid arteries completely fucked. Yep. So, pardon my language, you're fine Like swirls. So I'm basically I'm running on my spare, you know what I mean? I don't got another one. I'm like it's toast, yeah, but that's actually a quite a common injury in grappling right because of all of the, the pressure and the and the and the chokes, yep, put against the carotid. So, yeah, about to I I still did a lot of gym wrestling, i did a couple tournaments here and there. Yeah, you know, i really fucking just love the shit out of this stuff. You know, but Around 2008 is when they're guessing. I didn't get diagnosed until 2019. Yeah, but the the vascular surgeon Was speculating was prior on 2008 when I had the collapse.
Speaker 2:Yeah of my carotid and I was having like stroke symptoms, and I didn't know the symptoms of a stroke for a couple years, and so I just was like what in the hell is going on here? I didn't know, yeah, and but you know, like my right arm stopped working. I would kind of lose my vision and I'm like, yeah, i'm like dude, i can't wrestle like this dude, i have to see and I need my. I'm not that good that I could tie an arm behind my back. I got a. You know, i'm going, i'm wrestling with some, some pretty heavy-duty, good studs, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:And so I just I had to kind of just have this. You know, i'll be honest with you is it was a real hard period of my life because so much of my life I had identified, you know, like my personality. I really identified as wrestler and a lot of times if I had a beef with somebody we just had a sub on the mat, sure and and Dude, like that was taken from me, and I had to just learn a whole new way of being so, with that being, said though I mean with this because now I'm gonna bring up your shoot three, right, so you, you were bringing to light Catches, catch can, so what?
Speaker 1:I watched some of it now, knowing what you went through with that injury, are there things that they have done now that like to put in place to kind of help from that happening? Or is it just a result of how the sport is and just because it's rough? man? I mean, those guys are literally beating the piss out of each other and Dude.
Speaker 2:I mean I look at this, i look at this Elon Musk Zuckerberg MMA match. I'm like these guys are gonna get fucking jacked man, they I mean you know the guys that go in, yeah, and are at the high level and you get a watch man. Like it could be a dangerous thing, like a lot of people. There's people getting paralyzed. Yes, again, strokes are huge, not to mention just dumb things like ACL, and you know they're right, real, but, like you know, awful. So You know, my, my problem is it's my fault. Okay, okay, i'm not a fan. I'm not a fan of people coming in and, you know, putting freaking bubble wrap over everybody and you know, like, i think that's actually a problem with our, with our culture.
Speaker 1:Thank you large Thank you.
Speaker 2:Is everybody's too fucking soft and everybody's too protected and you've got to take some risks.
Speaker 2:Yep that's said. That said, because I do a lot of coaching and I do a lot of training and I do a lot of PSA on this, yeah, you know, like public service announcements about this, i'm like Don't you know, do as I say, don't do as I did. Yeah, and what we used to do in the early days, man, it's like In the early days I was never really much of a striker. I fucked around with it a little bit, but I was never a huge striker. Yeah, but like I Would go to the gym and in the early days guys were tee and off on each other in practice and getting concussions in practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, so once the CTE entered the scene, they were like, okay, we're gonna back off on that a practice, we're gonna save those hard headshots for the actual fight. Well, that's where I'm at with the chokes. I'm like in the net cranks. I'm like, guys, it's cool, but don't ever fight out of one, sure, unless it's again a pro fight. Yeah, don't fight out of it because you're good dude. I guarantee you That the cutting bone of the wrist or wherever is getting against the prodded is stronger than the artery. I guarantee you, man, it's not a good fight, right? You're bringing a, you're bringing a knife through a gunfight there. So It had to do with me being an idiot, okay, not having proper training, because it was kind of the Wild West like very early days. Yeah, we were doing dumb shit.
Speaker 1:No, no one. When to say when is what you're saying? when you're, when you're competing or you're in the in the moment? No, when to just I know you're, i'm good, tapping out, you're just tap.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. You know, people are smart about that with regards to leg locks now, because the damage to to the knee a lot of times, especially on heel hooks. Yeah, but They need to be smart with that on the carotid Chokes understood.
Speaker 1:So and it goes hand in hand because, like I talked to Greco coach Lucas stealth, that's in the state here and kind of describing But just even Greco wrestling, if guys don't even know how to be on the defensive end of something in land, you know you're a hurt. You know the guy who's doing the move may know what he's doing, but you gotta know what you're doing coming to landing.
Speaker 2:So that's the other thing too is Yeah, you can get spiked on your head, or you know, fricking, put a hand out and lose your shoulder.
Speaker 1:Yep, if your feet leave the ground, tuck your chin. That's, that's all we try to tell people. Once your feet leave the ground, tuck your chin and just go for the ride, right? Don't yeah, don't fight anything. So, with what you've started right now, you started, you started on scientific wrestling. Was it 2009? This is a while back early 2003, actually Yeah holy shit, okay.
Speaker 1:So what? what brought all this? What brought the, the want to start creating? and because you got a lot of drive, you got drive your sales guy, you let you in, you're motivated. So, with that being said, what? what got you to this point of? obviously you weren't you know, you were able to coach, but not competing, so it left you some free time. I'm taking it. But what drove to want to start creating? because you've got books out there. You've got. You got all kinds of content that's on your website, that is on scientific, scientific wrestling calm, by the way. You guys have so much out there. What drove you to this?
Speaker 2:You know, man, like it's kind of weird. I'm just Fricka type A and if I find something I've just got this thing I've got to dominate. And it doesn't mean I always do right, but dude, i'm in there, i'm like in the scrum, kicking, elbowing, like I'm in there. It's awesome. And I'll be honest with you what actually this is kind of funny because you know, i've been a business nerd, not as long as I've been a wrestling nerd, but I've been a business nerd for a minute.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I I actually was like I was spending so much on training. Yeah back then going to camps, beer, instructionals, all that shit. Yep, i actually started it as a tax write-off. Alright, i could get away with about three years of doing that before the IRS got pissed off.
Speaker 1:It's awesome. I love playing the game dude. It's awesome, so so okay, keep going Yeah.
Speaker 2:I did that, i did that. And then you know like the thing is is I'm not a big intimidating guy, i'm a lanky wrestler, right, which You know, the typical guy you see wrestling's like. In my opinion it's kind of a shorter, stockier guy. Yep, you know, does the John Smith style. You know like, yeah, wrestling, i am a Wade Shalas lanky.
Speaker 2:Yeah leverage and reach guy, yep. And so I just had, in my journeys, gathered a together, a bunch of shit like techniques and ideas, and had been doing a bunch of research because I Wanted to win. Okay, so I wasn't just one of these guys, that's like I'm just gonna show up to practice. I'm like I'm a, i'm not just gonna work hard, i'm gonna work smart. I'm not gonna, you know, i mean they say like yeah, don't work hard, work smart. I'm like I do both and then I killed both of those guys right right.
Speaker 2:So I started studying and I, when I was talking to some of these old-timers and they were telling me about the catch, the catch wrestling, i was like I started looking up the books and.
Speaker 2:Because I was making a crap ton of money, more money than a 30 year old really has any business making. Yeah, i was just blowing this money on wrestling shit, no shit, and I was collecting all these old, old antique Books that were like thousands of dollars, right, i mean, it was like Lots of money, yeah, and I realized I'm like dude, i cannot be the only person That digs this weird obscure shit. Yeah, i want to read about it and learn about it right.
Speaker 2:And so, literally one day, i just got a hair, a hair, a wild hair. Yeah and I sat down, i went, i went to home. D Poor no to like office max, or some bought a scanner. Yeah like 2002.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say, yeah, right you did. You're not dealing with all the social media stuff yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah dude, it didn't exist, man, You tube didn't exist and I sat there and I I Sat there literally like lifted the lid. Turn the page, put it on the thing, close the lid hit.
Speaker 1:Wow, Oh yeah and I did that medication like 10, 10,000 times.
Speaker 2:I have over 10,000 pages of material and I Collated it, put it together in books and then I started marketing it. Yeah and people were like stoked. They're like holy shit, here's somebody doing this move from a hundred years ago Yes, how cool, you know. And That once I saw that there was demand, i was like oh, oh, shit, yeah, and so then I just started seeking out more shit like that. I found these old tapes that were out of print.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Wade, shall us is Wade, shall us is legal pain. He'd taken it off the market for years and it was like the best-selling wrestling tape.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was like, wait, dude, let me, let me remaster this, let me put it on DVD, so let me get it out there and sell it. And I started doing that with a bunch of guys And then so I went for books to DVDs and then when I went after I got done with DVDs, everybody was like, man, i want to learn from them. I was like, okay, we're gonna do seminars. So then we started doing seminars. Then then, once we started doing seminars, i was like you know what? I think this idea of making pro wrestling competitive again has legs. I think there's something to this, and so I actually started hosting competitions in 2007.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yep, And that's kind of been the genesis I've just.
Speaker 1:those main things have been what I've really just extrapolated on and honed and Developed and marketed and yeah yeah, kept plowing through well, and so the amount of content that you have out, and not just content But just a information, we'll say information, because I mean you were starting before the content Life again. So, with the amount of information you're putting out, you're getting feedback here. You know you're doing seminars and things like that. The events How do the events did the events kind of? was it like some people caught on to it? Was it a like with people with Greco? not everybody likes Greco, right, but there are a Chasm of people that will kill the watch Greco and kill the competing kill watch it. Were you running into those types of crowds with that? because looking at catch wrestling looks like it's predated almost every other Wrestling that's out there, right, pretty much for the part Yeah it, yeah, i mean you know you can go and you get like.
Speaker 2:So Greco People don't realize Greco Romans knew is actually an invention of the modern Olympics in like 1898 or 1896 actually, i think. I think it was 1896, right.
Speaker 1:Hey, craze before, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Well, so pancreation Was the old, was the old, like Greek, yes, style of of wrestling that had submissions in it, yep, but that it, like you know, that was thousands and thousands of years ago. And so the Greco Roman was actually an attempt to recreate the upper-body wrestling styles of Of Europe and particularly like, like northern Europe, like Dulema, okay, and these are these Viking styles of wrestling. You know, most wrestling, especially in the West, was upper-body wrestling, mm-hmm, like there were some, some styles like Cornish and Devonshire and they had jackets, and there's other ones that were like back Backhold styles, where you had to start almost in, like this weird Over-under clinch kind of thing, yes, and but, but it was always really frowned upon to continue wrestling on the ground, like once you threw the guy, that was a, you won or you got. You know, right, you got the point, yep, so. So catch his catch can. And then Started was first really recorded and documented in 1870.
Speaker 2:Okay, now It, it predates that even because it was mostly practiced by the poor Irish and the I. We have to understand the history. The Irish was, my people were, yeah, me too, man, and they were, they were.
Speaker 2:They were colonized by the British, yes, and you know, they were basically treated like how blacks were treated here I asked very, very poor Yep, and one of the things the English did to subjugate them is they forbade them from learning how to read and write. Ah, so so This is why I'm very certain, because when you go back and you look at all these early catches catch can guys all of them were Irish, yep, they're. All their names were Irish. But the first people to record it were the were the English gentry, like the upper class. Damn, it was betting on these. Well, it's like they were betting on these.
Speaker 2:Irish, irish people like you would bet on fighting dogs and cocks you know It was brutal is brutal. Yeah. So what these guys with the Irish did, that was different. They just did not give a shit, because they were already subjugated and poor. Yeah, as they said. Well, we ain't gonna stop wrestling when we hit the ground.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then what?
Speaker 2:you're gonna, we're gonna wrestle till you give up. Yep, i Love that.
Speaker 1:I love that story.
Speaker 2:But so the crazy thing is, is that Crazy ass idea, those psycho nuts, yep, it did that ended up creating The biggest, most impactful, not just combat sport. In my estimation, sport ever, yep, in terms of in this, i believe, is quantifiable when you look at the number of fans, athletes, coaches, promoters involved, because this catches, catch can style It birds Olympic wrestling, like the at 1904 in London. Yep, the first freestyle Match was called amateur catches, catch can.
Speaker 1:Oh, no shit, No shit, i didn't even pay attention.
Speaker 2:So every athlete that's ever done freestyle. Yeah every coach, every business person that's promoted it. Yep all of that Were impacted by the sport. Folk style.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, it's the same thing. Yep was the American version of freestyle. Wow, professional wrestling and that dude is huge man like the WWU is sold for eight billion dollars.
Speaker 2:I mean the dollar, that's right during the top ten YouTube channels like this is massive the number of people that's impacted. So, and, and, mma, mma. All of it started with catch wrestlers. Now the UFC was started by the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guys. The Gracie family actually started that as a promotional vehicle for their style, but it started actually pancrease Opened it stores that, which was the first modern MMA. Okay, open their doors about a month or two before the UFC. But there had actually been another one called shuto in Japan that was started by Carl Gotch, and and And Sayama, a wrestler known as Tiger man, tiger mask, and now it's MMA like in 86. Wow. So if you think like it's bigger than soccer Yeah, it's bigger than than baseball, than basketball, than any other sport in terms of the quantity of people that have been impacted And it just goes back to the gnarly little Irish guys You see little.
Speaker 1:Irish fucks rolling around like, like, we're not going to have to give up you imagine how a bar look like after that, like after especially having that sport rolling around Just an Irish pubg is guys rolling around and like beer and piss and just fighting it out and then Having drinks afterwards. That's the best kind of shit you know well, you have to remember.
Speaker 2:You have to remember back in those days, man. First of all, these people couldn't read and write, so they weren't reading books, they weren't reading news, but they had no way entertaining. There was no swiping up down left right, there was no a Call of duty to play. There were none of that. No, your only entertainment the poor people had back then was betting on dumb shit, yep. And do they bet on everything?
Speaker 1:Yep they did.
Speaker 2:Everything, and so you know the actual first professional wrestlers, mm-hmm, were these coal miners in the north of England that That, after a long day hunched over with a pickaxe getting coal out of these, these minds Black faces Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, norley. They were like, all right, i'm going to run, i can think I can kick your ass. All his friends would back him. The other guys friends would back them. They pool money. And then eventually some of these guys got so good at these side bet wrestling matches that they didn't have to work in the minds They were making enough money wrestling. And these were the first pro wrestlers Wow. And then the, the first promoters I'm only thinking of this because you mentioned the pubs. Yep, the first promoters were the publicans, not Republicans like publicans. These are the people that ran the pubs Yes, correct. And they saw how freaking hot this was and how much people love this shit, yep. And they said, hey, why don't you hold the match in my pub? Yep, because then I can sell beer.
Speaker 1:Yep, and they did it. And so they did. I remember seeing some pictures of it. They actually it was drawn pictures, but they actually had almost like where you'd see like a stage or a band would set up or like the band would congregate to play. They would empty all the chairs And I remember seeing this drawing. They would have all the tables rounded together and it was a crowd of guys standing around and you'd think you'd see guys standing like this with their fists up. You know they're ready. They weren't. They were holding on to each other's waistbands and they were literally getting. It looked like they're one of them was getting ready to launch the other ones. So I was like this is this is absolutely flooring me right now. I'm so used to everybody depicting little Irish guys with their hands up like the Notre Dame, the Notre Dame guy, and it's like no, these guys are getting ready to like throw down on the ground, like they're getting ready to throw.
Speaker 2:Well, that's funny, right, because, yeah, you always think of like Irish with boxing, yes, but not only was it boxing, it was also like wrestling, yeah, and like I said, man, they kicked off a massive firestorm that's still going today Like crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that's kind of why it's it piqued my interest so much As far as watching. When I hear the, when I hear the, the phrase of scientific wrestling right, science, okay, i get, i can wrap my mind around it. But when I start to try to think of the science of it, what do you think? And what do you think in science? And I'm like, well you know, is it the body, what is it? You're breaking it down, though not to just the body, but you're, you're, you're making a science of it because and I heard you were talking about it You're taking parts of catch wrestling, you're taking parts of I think it was two other sports, adapting things into wrestling, into folk style wrestling, or whether it's freestyle.
Speaker 1:Someone can adapt it to how they want. Where, where were you starting? Is this where the part of that journey was with you, kind of getting ideas from all those books and things like that, because a lot of what I'm hearing from you is newer, newer content, but was a lot of that from back in the day of taking all those things and putting them together? Is that kind of where scientific wrestling came from? Is that the culmination?
Speaker 2:Well so. so when I started out I was like, okay, when I first started I started doing grappling and I was doing because what we used to do back then, because there was no contest, you did like these challenge matches, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So they're actually back in the day. Now he's passed away. He unfortunately committed suicide, but one of my my very first student was a guy named Roshan Salam Okay, and he was actually a Heisman trophy winner at a university of Colorado, boulder Wow, and we became good friends. He ended up getting kicked out of the NFL because he tested positive for pot. It's so tragic. Yes, he was like a hell of an athlete And when he got, when he got out of there, he actually went to China and started. He's one of the guys instrumental for starting what's known as one fighting championship, which is actually, in terms of viewership, bigger than UFC. Yes, but it's a China based, i think that's where Ben started.
Speaker 1:I think that's where Ben started was.
Speaker 2:He was in it, yeah, he was there, yeah, and so yeah, roshan. Salam was instrumental in getting that started, but I was instrumental in getting him started doing MMA. Yeah, because we used to do these challenge matches. We just go to the rec center at CU or wherever there was a mat room, you know, and and we would just, we would just fricking go, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and but. What I noticed is in the beginning I could beat the wrestlers because they didn't know the submissions.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, sure Right, so they they could.
Speaker 2:They could take me down. There might be a guy who's a way better wrestler than me, but he didn't know the submissions, So I get them every time. Well, that only worked like once or twice till they figured it out, And then they started doing the tit to me and they had better control And I was like, Oh shit, Right. So. So like I realized that wrestling itself as as folk style and freestyle, when you apply it in an MMA context, is not or a grappling submission. Grappling contest is not complete because they took out the submission holds. It used to have holds.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:But then. But then they took the submission holds out to make it a broader sport. That could be done scholastically.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So so the the the reason why. So okay, this is kind of a long wind away, but I don't know how to say it. Brunsford, but scientific wrestling was already a euphemism for catch his catch can. Another way of saying it was they would. They would go like in pro wrestling. They would say, oh, that guy's a scientific wrestler, which meant being a phony. Maybe he's up there doing the theatrical bullshit to get paid. But you will fucking rip your head off Like you. Don't fuck with that guy, right.
Speaker 2:And so typically somebody who got called a scientific wrestler was somebody like Danny Hodge or Luthez or Billy Robinson or Carl Gotch, gene LaPel, but typically it meant somebody who had either a catches catch can background or a scholastic wrestling background.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:That was just like the lingo in pro wrestling. They said yeah, right, that this guy's a scientific wrestling. That means they either had a good folk style freestyle background or catches, catch can background Okay.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So when I started coming up with this idea that man, i think I could do something big and I see a big hole in the market and I think I can fill it I was like I don't want to just call it catch wrestling, right. Right, You know, because what I want to do is I want to create, like a hybrid style, mm-hmm, that really brings back the catch wrestling to the forefront, because there's so much lost information that really is applicable and relevant today that nobody knew about. But I wanted to integrate it into folk style because, you know, i had gotten my ass kicked by enough folk stylers. I was like this shit is dope, i need to learn it. Yeah, right, like the whole reason I got into grappling is because my friend of mine who had judo beat the shit out of me. I was like I need to figure this out. Yeah, yeah, so, right, yeah. So scientific wrestling really started with me looking at the already used lingo and marketing from pro wrestling.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The label, what I was doing. I was like, ooh, that's kind of a cool sound to name scientific wrestling. I like that. Nobody's using it, yeah. So I bought the URL, i went deep and I just fricking owned it, yeah. And then one thing that's interesting, though in particular the guys that I've been fortunate to surround myself with like you know, i do this in business and I did this in grappling I found the fastest way to get good And I actually learned this through snowboarding, randomly but I found that the fastest way to get good is to be the worst guy in the room. If you're the best guy in the room, you're in the wrong room. Right, your ego might want you to stay there, your comfort might want you to stay there, agreed. But once you start getting to be the top guy in the room, you need to get into a tougher room.
Speaker 1:You gotta move Period, that's right. Well, and we did the same. I mean, i have a 15-year-old. I have my son, liam, and he's been wrestling since he was four, right, so you've, as they grow, they grow just like they're close. They grow out of clothes. Right, they get too big for their clothes. Well, guess what? Some rooms, you just get too big for you. You wind up growing out of them. The only problem with that is that you wind up going something in a lot of rooms.
Speaker 1:These kids all glom together. And then you want to get better and you're like Hey, i'm gonna come over here and you're you're like you, where you're a super like. You want to. You want to grind and learn at the same time. Right, you want to get the technical side while really beating either the shit out of the other guy or yourself. But some of those guys don't want to, you know. And they're like no, no, I'm practicing with Johnny over here. And you're like well, dude, i want to get better and you're one of the good guys. So now you're taking it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean, this is, this is the challenge I. I don't coach kids because I think it adds a layer of difficulty and that is that they don't want to be there. Right, like I like coaching. I like coaching people that are over 18. Yes, because nobody's forcing them to be there. They're there because they want to learn.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And then if I push them and they push out, then get the fuck out, i'm done, i'll move on to somebody.
Speaker 1:I'm the same way, it's right You?
Speaker 2:know what I mean. Like it's just, I'm just being real, Like I'm glad there are people that are challenging these young people, but I can't do it. I can't do it. I get. I'm like you don't want to be here, Get the fuck out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i agree, i totally get. It Just got done because I'm going to go back and hopefully coaching soccer again. And I told them. I said I can't nothing under 14. I can't nothing under 14 and up. I don't even want that. I said if I can get 15 and up, that'd be great, because a lot of these kids are already committed to the sport already and they've been doing it long enough where I know that they they're open minded enough to learn things. But I know that I can also put them over on the other side of the field. No, they're going to work, you know. yes. And I told okay, youth coaches, please don't take offense to any of this. You guys are great, you're doing awesome.
Speaker 2:No, they're great. We need you guys. They're great, but what they what you have to do if you're not wanting to turn the kid off? yeah, you've got to make it fun. It can't be pressure, it can't, it's just got to be fun, exactly. And I'm wanting to make killers dude. I want, i want, i want freaking like just beast dominate, crush. Yes, i don't care, eat your face, that's right. Yeah And dude, like they have to want to do that. Like, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Kids, kids in this. That was the fun part of like. I did coach you soccer for a little while. I coached youth wrestling and that's the fun part of me Yes, it's, it's great to see the kids have fun, but for me to get results, like those kids can't handle what I'm going to handle and give them to get those results. So I actually am saving the children, i guess and lack of a better term saving the kids for the better of the planet.
Speaker 1:But what you're doing, what you're doing with with scientific wrestling, is you're so I thought I called it evolution, right? So I was. I've always asked that. We had been on with another guy that does a podcast, tic Fenwick, and we asked, and I've asked several guys, what's the next evolution? that wrestling, wrestling, folk style in our country, folk style wrestling can go through and there's only so much you can do with freestyle and Greco because it's so European, it's not, it's not ours. You know, we didn't, we didn't create it. How much more can we evolve? And then I see this and I'm like, okay, okay, there's another evolution coming. You know, there's something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do my, my, my vision, my vision is, you know, i, you know, the present is the combination of the future and the past. Correct, right, yep, okay And so like. my vision is honestly like okay, I Think folk style is like the coolest goddamn thing on the planet. I just freakin love it, right, i think it's so cool. Yeah, and it's. it's it massive risk? Yes, massive risk? Yep. if you've been around for a minute, you saw what title title nine did, yep, correct.
Speaker 2:if you've been around for a minute, you saw the Olympics like almost booted freestyle, almost correct Yep exactly the reason is, in my opinion And again, there might be some some blue-haired Biden people out there that don't like what I'm gonna say here Yeah, but It's because it's been socialized, dude, and you know what there's gonna be some wrestlers don't want to hear this either. Yeah, wrestling is socialized and because of that, it's under the thumb of a centralized authority, the government, like it's funded through tax. Yes, yeah. And so my solution is Is because I'm a business guy like we need to turn this into a market-based system. Sure, we need. We need to make wrestling retail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is where we can take a lesson from the Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys. Mm-hmm, there's one of those fucking BJJ places in every goddamn strip mall in the there in the country, there is. Yes, and it's only been that way for 20 years. You're like I Had to go to California. I don't move to do it. These fucking punk asses just go down the street. Now I'm like, oh my god, yeah, you don't even know what I sacrifice to do this right, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So now that's my vision. Okay, for For Wrestling. And I think, if you look at what is actually happening in the marketplace, mm-hmm, there's this giant fucking company run by Ari Emanuel. Yeah, who's the guy from Entourage if you ever watch that show in HBO? Yep, the actor played by Jeremy Piven. Yep, ari Emanuel runs endeavor, endeavor, owns UFC and WWE. Wow, i, on the other hand, own the intersection where those two circles overlap.
Speaker 1:Yes, yep.
Speaker 2:Yep, that's Where I think it needs to go. Yeah, i think that we need to create Come in this is what I've done was to pro wrestling. Yeah, we need to create competitive grappling under professional wrestling rules And it works. It works. So, dude, it works. I watched my, i ran, i ran a middleweight tournament. Yeah, yeah, it was won by by Jacobi Jones, who is an LFA. I Think he's middleweight champion, but he's also my middleweight. He might be a lightweight champion for LFA. Yeah, anyway, he's a strong folk styler. He crushed it in there in my promotion. Yep, but I don't just do singles matches, dude, we do tag.
Speaker 1:I saw that I didn't watch one of those matches, but I saw that shit. No, you have to watch it. Like, wait a minute, it's insane. Okay, okay, i'm open-minded, i'm not close to you, have to not close seriously, it'll blow your mind. So I'm like I'm so I watched one of the singles matches and I was. I was amazed. So I'm watching these guys and it was. It was a folk style match, like they were, or freestyle, whatever tie ups and same kind of thing.
Speaker 1:It was it was a single leg take down that the guy did, and then they were going into some submissions. But the count was different. It was one, two, three, like you had to yeah. Yeah, shoulders had to be down for three counts, so I get it with. That kind of account. Gives you an opportunity to You know fight. You get to hear what's going on with the count, not just a ref sitting there and you're hopefully you don't hear him slap His hand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but but see more importantly.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:More importantly and this is what pro wrestling is figured out Okay, it's been figured out how to make a fuck ton of money With yeah wrestling, although it's fake. But you don't have to have the outcome be fake. you can do all the other pageantry the large, loud, yeah, pounding of the mat, yep, that's the act of cool, but it's still competitive. Yes, the The fact that there's a it's submission grappling. So you pull in the UFC guys. Yeah, jiu Jitsu guys. We know what's going on there, yep, but you don't get all this dumb like Jump off the top, rope shit.
Speaker 2:Well, you don't get the dumb pro wrestling, but you don't get the weird gay porno that you see in in Jiu Jitsu. Oh yeah, like got his legs around the other guy and it's like, oh my god, jesus, you know, me and my kids, i don't even know if they should watch this like Yeah, because because when the guy's on the on his back you can lose there too right.
Speaker 2:So well, like it's important to think about the athletes and that they have fun, sure, yep, but what I'm making sure is that this it's a spectator sport, yes, and this is, you know, one of the one of the things that inspired me. I sent you a flyer today that I'm doing a some seminars with, with King Moe, yeah, and you know, us senior nationals three-time Champ. This guy's a freaking stud, mma multi champ, you know, like just a stud. And but I first got wind of Moe At this random ass thing.
Speaker 2:There was this guy named Matt Case and he and his partner, i think, is I can't, i don't think it was Matt. He was a huge, big in the end in the folk stuff. I can't remember what state he was in I could have been Iowa, but he and his buddy, i think his buddy got his family, his buddy's family. He lived, but his family got killed in a horrible car accident, holy shit, and he ended up getting like millions of dollars in a settlement, yeah, and what he decided to do was he said I, he created something called real pro wrestling. This is like 2005.
Speaker 1:Oh, i remember, I remember it, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:It was cool. But what they missed I was there at the tapings. They did the tapings in LA. I knew Matt back then. I haven't kept in touch with him but yep, so I got in. I you know, i got to meet all the guys and Moe won that. And What they did that I think was a mistake is they just kept the folk style rules. They had like a, they had like an American gladiators looking set and they had like this instead of a mat, it was like a moded area where you got knocked off the platform. Okay. Okay, that's cool, that's cool. But it was still folk style rules and I could see, i Knew it was going on, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But the grandma's in the crowd, they were tuned out. They're like this is boring, i don't know what's going on like. Why is he get a point and what is this? and right, i Pro wrestling. Simple. Pro wrestling is just like MMA Simple. There's two ways to win In MMA knockout or submission, submission. Yep, pro wrestling pin or submission. It's simple.
Speaker 1:It's simple Yeah it's pretty not complicated Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so are there, but it looks awesome in the ring. It looks amazing.
Speaker 1:But other than the submission or the pin. Are there points involved? Can there be a decision?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had to Because I am a nerd and I am thorough. I did have to start, like Because I looked down. Dude, I've been, I've had these plans laid out for like 20 years. I've just been checking them off. It's just taken a minute, Right, yeah, But one of the things that I realized and I realized this we ran a tournament and I didn't want to do points.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we ran this kind of experiment, yep And dude, some of these matches, like the old matches, went ours Like it was ridiculous, oh shit, because neither guy wants to give up. And then I'm like, well, dude, there is going to be no TV station that picks this up, because you can't put a commercial in, you can't bleed over into the next TV spot. So I was like, okay, i need to do, and there was a couple of Japanese promotions that had an interesting point system And really the point system, So I did put time limits on and then I created this time system. So the time or this point system, that only happens in the case of a draw.
Speaker 1:Okay, and that's kind of what I was asked for, just in case of that, because you can't have an 11-hour match, right. He's like, holy shit, these guys will die out here. So you got to Dude.
Speaker 2:That was actually the time on. The longest match in the Olympics was 11 hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i talked to Frank Jasper about that yesterday. Yeah, he was telling me that it was an 11-hour match, and I can't remember who he said was involved in it, but I said he said that it was to the point to where, i think one of the guys had to be carried off on a stretcher because they had gone for so long. They were done Like they were cashed. So that's why I was kind of wondering, man, these guys have There's got to be a cut off somewhere, because these guys will wind up dying Otherwise. Obviously, i'm sure you thought of something which you did. How is that playing out though? now? I mean, how many Is it three events you've had so far?
Speaker 2:So we've had three events and I'm a business guy, so I've done plenty of masochism and just punished myself for no good reason and I've learned I only touch. I tried to touch the obstacle one time, so I've done three shows. There is interest. I basically did what's called an MVP, a minimum viable product. I wanted to create three shows to show what was possible with this And I did it on a shoestring dude, i did it for next to nothing And people are losing their goddamn minds.
Speaker 2:So now I'm in the process shopping around. I don't really want to go into it because I got some cool things cooking, but I just don't want to mess it up. So yeah, the vision is big. The vision is really big because one thing I realized when I was trying to sell the training camps and the relevancy UFC is the driver of everything in the martial arts world right now, pretty much like UFC and maybe some John Wick movies. That's what drives the business, the business side, not the socialized sports side, but the actual retail business side, and UFC is a business and all that kind of stuff. So I realized that the only way this stuff sells is if you have a platform to put the studs on the guys that really are impressive. You put that on, whether it's basketball, football, baseball, then you get the kids, then you get the weekend warriors and you could start actually building a huge sport.
Speaker 1:Nice. Well, i wholeheartedly appreciate it. I think it's nice because, as seeing, like we mentioned, wrestling is taking on a whole other level. It's taking guys from wrestling to MMA and they're crushing it and they're killing it right. It's being nice because, again, these guys can't keep going to Olympic style wrestling constantly because there's no money there, there's no stipend, there's nothing, unless you're the top dude, jordan Burroughs.
Speaker 2:The top guys, jordan Burroughs they make like millions of dollars.
Speaker 1:Plenty of money. That's it.
Speaker 2:So again, it's. it's the same. It's the same deal as Soviet Russia. The top guys in Soviet Russia, oh, they have their apartment, they have their cars and all the guys that don't make it, and they're still in the Olympic team. but they're not there. They're like crackers.
Speaker 1:So in with with your vision, what you're, obviously you're able to bring people another product that is allowed to get these guys some money if they, if this is the direction they choose to go, which I mean they need to hit up. They need to hit you up soon, jake Shannon, in order to kind of get a role on it. I think it's an interesting way to go. I think it's an interesting twist And I think I think you could be extremely fruitful just because it's already tied into it. It was already part of it, but a long time ago. It's just need to be readjusted again and brought back to the real world. I think it's awesome. I watching the guys in the in the matches that I saw, i thought I was literally watching just another folk style match that was inside of a ring. It was literally another match, but they're getting paid for it. You know that the guys are going to get paid for it, so to me, you have to.
Speaker 2:You have to watch, so you probably watch you pro three. Yes, you need to watch your pro two, which was the tag team tournament.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'll watch that one. I'll watch that one for sure.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. I can't even tell you. It's so insane. I'm trying not to oversell it. It is so crazy.
Speaker 1:That's cool And that, but that's what I like about it because it's already affiliated with something that we all, we all enjoy, we all love, which is wrestling or combat sports in general. So, with that being said, i've kept you around for an hour and I don't want to give everything away, because I do want to have you back on the show and be able to talk about some more stuff. So we're going to keep it short And I see you know, obviously we got the weekend popping up here too. We got things we want to get going to on a Friday night, right? So, with that being said, I do appreciate you, coach Jake Shannon, coming on. I thank you. I'd love to have you back on. I still want to talk to you for just a minute once we're done here, but I'm going to get in. See, now.
Speaker 1:I'm an old fart and you've probably figured this out already, but I play my music here, right? And this guy, this awesome dude, one of the dads from around our area, made this song, right, you'll be able to hear it when you listen to the episode. You can hear it. I'm and I've said this on every episode, and everybody's probably sick of hearing me say it, but it really irritates me that you guys can hear this. Anyways, we're leaving at that. Coach Jake Shannon. Thank you very much. This has been yet. Thank you, brad, hey, hey, you know what I'm forget about this. You need to do some plugs. What do you? got to plug quick.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, the big thing is like what I that, uh, that flyer I sent you. I think that you know I'm really excited right now about um, about this tour that we have cooking. We do a. We do two suit tours every year. We do one in the spring and one in the fall. The website is called coaching catch Yup Dot com. Yup, and it's really I. I we've come to call it the accelerator camp because almost everybody we've had the number one Yeah, that's King Mo right there. That's the number one feedback I've had in the in the 15 years plus of doing this. The number one feedback is guys will come to a camp for two days, they'll go back to their gym and they'll be like dude. I just beat the shit out of a guy who beat the shit out of me for years after one weekend And I'm like yup.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That's awesome.
Speaker 2:So so I'm super proud of that coaching catch. We've got King Mo Josh Barnett, wade Shalas, guinness record holder for the most wins and pins in all of wrestling wins over national champions, wins over an international champion five sport, combat sport, all American. So Wade is going to be there, Josh, it's. it's crazy, Dude. we got a great camp. I really wish people would come out.
Speaker 1:You're doing it right. Well, if everybody, if you're out in the area, get to the camp, let's see. When is this? It says Denver. You're going to be September 2nd and 3rd in Denver, colorado, norman, oklahoma. October 7th and eighth in Lake Charles, louisiana, october 14th and 15th. Weaponize your wrestling folks, get to the camp or get to coaching catchcom, all right.
Speaker 2:So we've got more dates than just those. Those are just the ones with King Mo.
Speaker 1:Yup And those, those are the best piece. Everybody we're out.
