Sustaining our eloquent voices

Foster carer Evette

Foster carers are fully-fledged human beings with life experience, education, and wisdom to share. It is worth listening to us because positive changes can happen when we are allowed to speak. Today's episode is from Evette, who has been instrumental in bringing about some important changes in the way the Police and the Care Service in Hackney work together to prevent the criminalisation of care-experienced young people.

We discuss some of the outcomes of the discussion groups we have held between foster carers, the Youth Engagement Team officers of the local Met Police Borough Command Unit and Children's Social Care staff in Hackney.  If you would like to learn more about the project, email hackneyfostercarerscouncil@gmail.com

Fostering Respect is the Hackney Foster Carers' Council podcast.

Hosted by Joe Chown
Produced by Jermaine Julie and Lucie Regan
Executive Producers: Debbie Bright, Kim Flack, Evette Dawkins, Andrew Henry & Liz Hughes.

Supported by The Museum of the Home

Special thanks to Rosie Watts and Mimi Buchanan

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

<silence>

Speaker 2: 0:01

Fostering Respect, learn about fostering with Hackney Foster Carer's Council .

Speaker 3: 0:09

In last week's episode, we heard from Kim about what happens when the voice of the carer is disregarded. Today we're going to hear from Yvette, who is going to introduce the theme for her episode entitled, sustaining Our Eloquent Voices. Yvette is one of the carers that I know best. We have known each other for a few years. First of all, it was all online because of the pandemic. I think it was in a meeting with the local Met Police Borough Command unit that came to speak to us about missing episodes that I first contacted Yvette . And we bonded over our shared passion for addressing the issue of criminalization and criminal exploitation of care, experience young people, and the way the care system works with the police service. Since then, we formed a partnership, which we'll discuss in a bit. Hi, Yvette.

Speaker 4: 0:54

Hi, Joe . Welcome

Speaker 3: 0:55

To the podcast. Do you wanna start by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you became a foster

Speaker 4: 1:01

Carer? Well, thank you Joe for inviting me here. And yeah, this has been a real excellent journey we've been on together. But yeah, myself, I'm a foster carer. I've been doing it up to five years now, and it has been a real journey of great growth and wisdom for myself. How I came to this place is that I've always wanted to be a foster carer from a child. And when I was reflecting and looking back, I think it might have been from living in an area where there was children that was in a care home, and I was quite intrigued. And my mom's always done, like child minding, looked after children and everything. And kind of like looking at my experience growing up and certain challenges. So , um, I've always had it in my heart and when I got the opportunity, I've just flowed into it so easy. I used to be a manager of one of the youth hubs that is in Hackney, and I've worked with the, with yacht, with all the professionals, with social workers. And , um, I think that has greatly supported me with my knowledge and my abilities and also worked with families. So for me to kind of like come to a place where I've got my children and not realizing the different level of challenges that I would encounter, that has been a real learning experience. Um, yeah, has brought me to a next level 'cause managing and dev developing as a person.

Speaker 3: 2:30

And you have a degree,

Speaker 4: 2:32

I do have a degree in youth work, and that comes with a thing called the JNC. So that's another sort of qualification. Um , what does that stand in ? Youth work to joint negotiation community. So I can, when I go to work for organization, I can negotiate how much I get paid than just the youth work qualification. It brings up my , um, experience even more as well. So that's a committee that kind of like works around youth work to show that I've got more , um, experience as well and knowledge around youth work. So , um, yeah, and that has really supported me and helped me. I do foster caring , but I also do support work inside foster care as

Speaker 3: 3:18

Well. Yeah. Do you want to introduce the, the theme of this episode today?

Speaker 4: 3:23

Well, as we said, it's um, sustaining our eloquent voices. And , um, the reason why I kind of like chose that topic is that looking at fostering, it's a real journey. The great thing for me is that with this journey, I have real engagement with exceptional people like yourself, Joe . We try to create a better life for our children. And , um, this is children in care and also children that we have around us as well, personal children. And the thing we do, we try to use our abilities and skills and we support one another. And within that is that while we're doing this, we're working with vulnerable children and we're trying to advocate for them as we are foster carers and professionals might not realize that we are the grassroots, we are the frontliners and we are the foundation of fostering. So in that I think our voices need to be heard, our voices is a strong voice, and for us to articulate ourself , knowing that our voices are precious. So this is why I call it eloquent voices. And collectively as foster carers working together is much more stronger. So , um, this is the platform.

Speaker 3: 4:57

Yeah . <laugh>, can you talk a little bit about your experience of supporting your young person through the criminal justice system ?

Speaker 4: 5:05

So, as I said, yeah, me being a foster carer ha ha has been a real experience. And , um, when I got one of my foster children, they were firstly on a yacht order and I had to make sure that they completed that yacht order because when they come to me, yacht was kind of concerned if they would were gonna have to penalize , um, them again for not attending.

Speaker 3: 5:32

Well just , um, clarify that that yacht stands for youth offending

Speaker 4: 5:35

Team , youth offending team. Yes. We call it yacht. And the thing they do , um, they work with under eighteens in a criminal justice system and they put a order in place. So a young person could be from six months to a year, would attend their meetings, one-to-one meetings, and this could be through the yacht worker that they're allocated to, or it could be group work depending on the offenses, or they can have sessions with , um, speech and language , um, assessment and as well, it could be something kaban drugs. So anything that can support that can help them as well. Or they can also look for , um, some form of work experience that they might have to do to help build them. So yeah, this would be a weekly meeting. So when he was , um, attending, I had to make sure that with that he was incarcerated. So we was trying to get, trying to get him out on Bell and I was working very closely with his, with my social worker at the time. And this was around Christmas. Yeah. So he ended up staying in a youth offending place at Young Offenders Institute. Yeah. And he was there for six months until we were able finally allowed to get him out on bail. And he had now a court order. And the court order wa was a curfew time and he had to work with a support worker , worked very closely with <inaudible> , with a tight timetable that would also include some sort of academic level of work as well. And a support worker was with him quite a bit of hours for the day. However, when he's on this tag now order, he's got a curfew time and within that curfew time, if he's late home, it was a constant thing of him getting arrested again and going back to the court. So we had quite a bit of number , um, interaction with the police now. 'cause sometime he would be late home. And with that whole experience in dealing with the police in regards to being late home, I had a lot of negative interaction with a whole household, was feeling like we were all criminals and not, not respecting that I'm still a foster carer as well. So with that experience, it created myself having anxiety with the police. So anytime any police officer would attend my door could be good or bad. I would've had anxiety because of how they've came , come to the door and disregarded me, disrespected me, didn't, didn't have no respect of who I am as a mother of the house. When you asked me to come on board and you heard my story in regards to , um, meeting with the police, having me , um, meeting regular meetings with the police and the projects you had in mind, I welcomed it because I felt as though that was my role now. And as, as my voice wasn't being heard and it wasn't being respected as a foster carer as well, monthly meetings, I can see it really helped and they supported me.

Speaker 3: 9:17

Yeah. I'll, I'll just give a bit of background about that. So the, the meetings that we set up were sort of discussion meetings between foster carers and members of the youth engagement team who are part of the Hackney Tower Hamlets Borough command unit of the Met Police. And it was an offshoot from the Trust and Confidence Project, which was run by Hackney Council to address the lack of trust and confidence that the community have in the police in this borough, and the , the impact that it has on their ability to police. The , certainly our involvement in this project came off the back of the, the child queue case. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and the, the recognition from the police that they need to work better with the community. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> that they police. So, so yeah. If , if you want to just talk a little bit about , about the first meetings, 'cause it was you sharing your story that really determined the direction in which we, we took the , this project and you took these meetings.

Speaker 4: 10:27

Well, for me, and going from my experiences recognizing that the police, the police has little, I dunno if it's understanding , um, but they show little understanding in regards to the young people that, or the children that we look after or we care for or we love or protect. And in regards to the trauma that they've been exposed to. And having these experiences creates more trauma. So when I spoke to the police officer, the police officers that attended a meeting and shared my story in regards to officers coming to my house and , um, how they should approach and what they can try to do or how we can move forward, to me it was, it was a real support because it's like some support of hope, hope of change. And they heard what I had to say. So in regards to coming to the house and asking for my young person and not even greeting me at my door, it's just demanding the young person. And when I'm saying a young person's not at home, they're still not respecting what I have to say. And they're seeing other young people come down the stairs and they're still not respecting and asking me who that is. And Basically I'm asking them , do you think I'm a liar? And undermining me and my role and , um, what I'm hearing from the officers and hearing that their , their approach and behavior is not right. And the things that we could try to do is see if we can create a list or catalog of people that are foster carers for them to know which door they're going to or where they're going to or how to approach it. To me, there's some form of hope, even them taking in information. Another great thing is we can try to go in and create a training program for the new recruits. And , um, I said that would help greatly for myself to have that understanding. And for officer, I had that understanding of a trauma informed approach when they're approaching these children then to cause much more damage

Speaker 3: 12:53

To have respect for the homes that they're entering

Speaker 4: 12:55

In. Oh, definitely

Speaker 3: 12:56

Understanding of, of , of the unique nature of a foster home.

Speaker 4: 13:01

Definitely. And

Speaker 3: 13:03

One of the experiences you said was about being labeled as aggressive by police. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , when you're advocating for your young person. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um , do you wanna , so , because that, I mean, that has sparked off a whole other project,

Speaker 4: 13:19

So definitely. Um, so yes, when an officer has come to my house, <laugh> , and the thing it is, is that officers make mistakes as well. And the sad thing is, is that they don't wanna be accountable for their mistakes. But I'm a person, I'm not easily intimidated and I advocate on behalf of my young people. And when officers has come to the house and they wanted to rearrest my young person again for which they were arrested for, for breaching their , um, coming home late basically, or their bell tags . So we went through the whole process of them being arrested, going to court , and coming back home. Officers came back to the door again for that same offense. And I'm explaining myself to them, and I'm a woman that is very passionate. Whatever I do, I'm very passionate, whatever I do, and I am protective, firstly protective of my home , naturally anybody will be protective of their home . So they tried to turn around and say that, why am I being aggressive? And I threw it back at them actually. I said, why are you being aggressive? And I knew that was a way of trying to kind of trying to , um, sort of oppress me, but I knew I weren't being aggressive, but I just thought, you are out of order. Trying to use that on me, where I know what I've done. I'm writing. And in that situation, when I did speak to the officers at our , um, sessions, they did explain to me what the officers should have done. And it could have been easily radioed. They could have searched it on the system. And they asked me questions that was not relevant. Like, have you got doc documents of you going to court? You don't get documents when you come from court, you don't get nothing. So they know all this. Yeah. With them trying to kind of like, say things to oppress me, it's like I can see their tactic and I just think it's, it's really out of order. Mm-Hmm . And it's quite frustrating. And if I didn't have the meetings to attend, where would I go to? I can go to social service, but they're not going through what we go through as foster carers because this is our life. People say it's a job, but it's our life and it's part of our children's life who we try to protect sometime we're protecting them from their own self as well. But thankfully, I, I have the platform that we have created that I can express certain concerns and we are in a place that it might take a long time, but we still have got hope to make change. I think that's the greatest thing ever because likewise, myself is not all foster parents, like myself, is very confident to stand up to other professionals. And the thing I say that really scares me is if they haven't got the confident like myself and they haven't got the confidence to reach out, how will they manage it? Because as we talk about retention, is that they'd want to leave because no one's gonna really put up with that , um, behavior from other professionals as well when we're trying to do our job of protecting these children. So having a platform for me is, is a great thing where we're able to extend it . Where was able to kind of, is it deliver some other training to the

Speaker 3: 17:09

Mpac the mayor's office for policing and crime?

Speaker 4: 17:13

Yeah. Yeah . And that was, for me was a great experience for them to hear our voices of the challenges that we have . 'cause no one would kind of dream or think about the challenges foster care is ready go through in regards to these children that we are looking after and how they outlet their trauma and in outlet their trauma and their early their , their early interaction with police. That's another, that's another problem that we realized is that when they do go missing, we've been informed or we're being told it's to naturally call the police and it's constant going missing. And this is what I had with my young person is that interaction with police became nothing. It became natural. It became, it became innate to them because that was part of their life. And to me, that's a sad thing because that was my first thing. When they've gone missing, I would call the police. Yeah. So hearing, speaking to them and my interaction with the police, the negative encounter and the sad thing is that I've had, and it's sad to say I had, have had more negative than positive. However, <laugh>, there's a time I had a real positive encounter when the police have come to my door, they've asked my young person and , um, they were fine. They were polite. Polite . They greeted me and I said, my imperson ain't here. And they said, okay. And I stood there. It's like I was waiting for something and I thought, is that it? <laugh> I was waiting for them to them to kind of challenge me. And I was just amazed. And I had to tell others to share that story that when a officer behaves so kindly or I don't get a negative interaction, I have to mention it. I have, and as I said , is it , it hasn't all been bad. I have, I have , I have had real great encounters with officers and I do commend them and I tell them, please keep up the good work because it's so important. And to me, it's all about people healing. It isn't about just doing our job, but it's still trying to support and help and heal others not realizing what they're going through. A police officer could have gone to another home where they've had a real bad encounter with somebody and now they're coming to visit my home. So whatever they've gone through, they're still carrying it in them. And I could end up having the experience of what they're carrying. Likewise, it could be I've gone through suffering and I could be carrying suffering heavy as well. And is this could be in my home with my young person and they don't know . So this has said is that we have to come to a place where wherever we are doing , um, with our social worker, yacht worker, police officer, foster carer, we have to be accountable for our own behaviors and interactions. And we have to try to find out how do we regulate ourself .

Speaker 3: 20:44

I think from our perspective, the things that we've been talking about in these meetings, the trauma-informed practice is about us as the adults also being aware of our own trauma and our triggers and how we react and how we respond. Whether we are foster carers or social workers or the police officers. It's not simply about training foster carers to understand more about the fact that these children are coming with trauma. It's about understanding that we come with trauma as well, and that the we're working in a highly stressful field. Yes . Yes. And so the police are , it's traumatic being a foster carer. It's traumatic being a social worker, it's traumatic being a police officer. I mean, one of the one thing , just to take you back to something you've said earlier about, you know, that you , you having this platform to speak up because some other carers don't feel confident unless somebody else kind of takes the lead with that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that one of the, the this , this conversation about being labeled as aggressive, the fact that all the other black foster carers Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> in that group. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And none of the white foster carers in that group Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , all of the black foster carers in that group had also had the experience of being labeled as aggressive by the police. And then it transpired that all of them had also experienced the same experience of being labeled as aggressive Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> by social workers. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> when advocating for their young people. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And so I just say like, one of the other, and the positive things that has come out of those conversations is that we have taken that to the corporate parenting board. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And we have initiated a series of conversation social services. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and the council about this , the experience and the discrepancy between the way that black foster carers are treated and white foster carers are treated. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And a lot of the, the , the information that has come outta our discussion is when we contrast our different experiences of the police. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm <affirmative> That the , the way that they enter your home Yes. When you are there advocating for your young people is different from the way that they enter my home. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> when I'm there advocating for my young people. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> to mention a few of the other , just briefly a few of the other things that we have worked on together. So we also took part in the , um, anti-racism Yes. Training workshop with Aru . Do you wanna just talk a bit about

Speaker 4: 23:10

That ? So yes, that was , um, looking at, that was another deep level actually . And at the moment I've been attending a trial with one of my young people. So it's, it's kind of interesting actually when you are seeing things yourself, when the justice system is so unfair when the lawyers that we talk about the lawyers not really having a full understanding and have their own biases for our young black males as well as the judges having their own biases for the young black males as well. And we were able to share our perspective as foster carers that they didn't even think and look about. They were really intrigued and commended us when we did share with them. So that was good. The lady that was leading it, she even came back and , um, she interviewed me in regards to , of my experience as well with my young person. So yes, there is a big piece of work that is still being done in regards to further research of how the system is for a young black males. And that was really interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 24:21

That was, that was the Howard League and their anti-racism project. Yeah. It's a three year project that started I think early last year. Last

Speaker 4: 24:30

Year

Speaker 3: 24:31

Also the, the anti-racism workshop that we did , uh, for social services. Oh ,

Speaker 4: 24:36

Social services . Oh, yeah. <laugh> . Do you know what, sometimes Joe , I could , I could get the amount of work that we do. There's so much stuff that we do. Mm-Hmm . Yes. That was really interesting because all the professionals attended the workshop. We'd done it online. So that was social workers, I think police, police officers was on their yacht workers. So yeah. Had the professionals and , um, hearing my story as well and , um, your perspective as well of how your experience was and how my experience was. They were really intrigued and that was really good for them, for other professionals to kind of have that understanding. And to me as a great platform of professionals, knowing that we have our challenges and it isn't just a matter of looking after the children. It's a matter of the different challenges that we have to face in regards to the professionals and especially within our homes.

Speaker 3: 25:34

And the, the , the , the whole issue of criminalization and race and how that it's not just about the child, it's also about how they treat the adults around that child . Yes. And that, that that's not, that's not part of the conversation or has not

Speaker 4: 25:50

Been part of the conversation. There wouldn't be part of the conversation though . And we

Speaker 3: 25:52

Need that to be part of the conversation.

Speaker 4: 25:54

Definitely.

Speaker 3: 25:55

The last meeting that we had, the last police and carers meeting Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> a couple of months ago, which was, was quite well attended.

Speaker 4: 26:03

It was full. Yes. I was surprised when I came in , just thought, oh, wow. I was smiling to see how is a difference.

Speaker 3: 26:12

Yes . Yeah . And it felt like, 'cause we had somebody from the youth offending team Yeah . Come and speak to us and talk through some of the protocol that had been written a , a document about, for social workers about how, how to take , um, young people and care leavers through the criminal justice system. And it hadn't, it hadn't mentioned foster carers . It hadn't mentioned our relationship. And you spoke about your experience continuous. Yeah. And , um, yeah. Do you want Yeah . You , you ,

Speaker 4: 26:43

Yeah. So I shared about my continuous experience , um, in supporting my young person in the system. And , um, the yacht worker was kind of like intrigued as well and not realizing that this young person still needs to be looked after when they're a certain age as well. Um,

Speaker 3: 27:06

When they've left care.

Speaker 4: 27:07

When they've left care. Yeah. And I don't think it's kind of been accounted. They just, I realize with the care system is that, and the whole system is that once you are 18, everything changes. But I don't, they don't look at it as that. If the foster parent is, has that love and care for that young person, they're still going to be there and support them in that journey. And I'm in a place where I'm supporting my young person without funds because they're still, the relationship hasn't changed because they're not in my care. They're still in my care. And the young person wouldn't get that no support if I wasn't there. They wouldn't have no support. And as I said to spoke about them going to prison, and if they needed clothes, they wouldn't get no clothes if I wasn't there, I needed stuff, I needed support or trying to get the lawyer, the, the social worker or the professionals that are supposed to be around a person making sure that they're there, supporting them.

Speaker 3: 28:21

Yeah. That's the , um, I think one of the things that came outta that conversation was agreement from the fostering team that , um, foster carers will be provided with appropriate adult training. So we can be be the named contact on that young person file even when they've left care. Yes. Because up until now when we were not being communicated with because we are not considered the corporate parent or we don't have that corporate parent responsibility, but if we have that appropriate adult training, we can be that name person. Yeah . And we can be the person that supports them .

Speaker 4: 28:55

Because for myself, I do appropriate adult work as well in the police stations. I do it at night realizing there's a shortage of staff at night as well. A lot of our young people end up getting arrested at nighttime. I do meet a lot of young people at is in care as well. For me, the greatest thing, I was doing it before without the training, but now I'm a professional in it and I've had the training, it makes so much difference and it's so important. So if the foster carers can have that training, it will help them immensely to know what they're doing and what their young people's rights are. And one thing I must say , when I am in that police station as appropriate adult, I am respected so much. So it's a such a contrast. And for me , working in the police station has really helped me with my anxieties. Mm . So , um, and seeing the human side behind the police as well, <laugh>. Mm . So yeah. It's, it's such a contrast. Yeah. It's, there's a lot of bias. There's it , everything. Mm-Hmm .

Speaker 3: 30:01

Yeah. Yeah. It's , um, also, I mean, it's really worth us pointing out that this also does relieve the pressure on the care, the leaving care team. The more that you listen to foster carers, the more that you empower foster carers, the more you

Speaker 4: 30:15

Definitely. Yeah, definitely that pressure . Yes.

Speaker 3: 30:18

We have to end it there. We've got , uh, we've got plans for a lot more episodes, <laugh> on this subject, but if there are any final thoughts that you would like to leave us ,

Speaker 4: 30:28

My thing on my journey in regards to working with professionals and I always say is perspectives. And for me to make , make sure that , um, I can work in a professional environment with social workers and the police, I have to look at perspectives and I have to take in account of what pressures they might may be under. However, I want them to have that understanding with people when they come to the door and not to class everybody the same. They might be taught a certain way, but same time I've seen police officers, police officers have behaved a certain way and they've come and apologized after. And I have to commend them for that because they've realized how they've gone wrong. They've behaved a certain way at beginning and they've gone wrong and they've come and they didn't have to. So even that humbling yourself afterwards. Sometimes as people wi we do mess up, but if you can humble yourself as my thing is about healing, we are all on this journey and we all need healing. So thank you, John .

Speaker 3: 31:36

Thank you. That's great place to leave it. You've been listening to Fostering Respect. If you've been affected by any of the issues raised in this episode, or want to find out more about fostering or the Hackney Foster Carers Council , email us on Hackney Foster Carers council@gmail.com . Today's episode was hosted by me, Joe Ch , the producer was Jermaine Julie from Reform. Young people sustaining our eloquent voices was presented by Yvette Dawkins. Thank you for listening. Please join us for next week's episode

Speaker 5: 32:20

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