#85 Dr. Donna DeSanto Ott of Pennsylvanians for Safe Technology Interview

What is it like to have your world made smaller due to electromagnetic poisoning? Working, worshiping, and attending essential functions with your children become more challenging -- sometimes impossible.  

The heartbreak of seeing your family go off to enjoy a family vacation without you because you can no longer endure synthetic radiation exposure is difficult to imagine.

These and many other dramatic losses are common topics among the afflicted, of whom I am one. 

As you may have noticed by now, my work as an independent EMF Consultant allows me to work closely with many such people. I treasure these experiences; they bring me joy. I want to share a glimpse into the world of those afflicted because it shows my clients that others are suffering and a better life is possible after effective remediation.

It's also a blessing for those who are not (yet) persuaded that the convenience, amusement, and stimulation we derive from 'smart' tech come at a high cost in terms of human suffering.

So why are Dr Ott and I smiling in this interview? Perhaps because we can each honestly look at the other and say, "I know exactly what that feels like." We both know that sometimes suffering has a purpose. Finally, it's because laughing is better at a certain point than crying. 

Set some time aside, slow down, and enjoy this conversation. I hope this will be a blessing for you.

Transcript

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 0:01

No, no. And I think when you miss, like your children's events, like especially things that are really special, that you never expected, you know, like you know, the better sports, the bigger things that they did have to experience, that to be left behind because you can't turn devices off in a rental car or find a safe place to sleep.

Gwyneth: 0:41

EMF Remedy is dedicated to helping you understand which electromagnetic threats are present in your home and whether, in the context of your current home, one you're considering for purchase or building a new home with comprehensive protection designed in. Emf Remedy can help you reduce your family's exposure to harmful man-made electromagnetic radiation.

Keith Cutter: 1:03

My guest today is Dr Donna DeSanto-Ott. She is a doctor of physical therapy who is now a volunteer with Pennsylvanians for Safe Technology. Donna, welcome to the EMF Remedy Podcast.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 1:19

Thank you for having me.

Keith Cutter: 1:20

Yeah, it's my pleasure. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So would you mind kind of telling people how you became interested in this whole topic of human health and EMF?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 1:55

Yes, it was kind of out of necessity. When I became ill I was really forced to learn about it. I had been using all kinds of tech in my house laptops, we had a Wi-Fi router. The desk I'm sitting at was like a cell tower. In hindsight I would have had I known I would have never done any of this I, but I had no idea. So we were just kind of doing what came out, and one thing right after the next, and it was kind of exciting when there were no wires I thought this is really convenient. I don't like those wires. And now of course I know how important they are.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 2:31

But I didn't understand how it was affecting me. I really had absolutely no idea until the doctor at the Cleveland Clinic told me I had to reduce my electromagnetic exposures. And I was really kind of shocked and she said don't get a smart meter. And to that I said a what? I had absolutely no idea what she was talking about and I couldn't imagine that a little meter on the side of a house could harm someone.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 2:56

My father worked for the utility company and my life, my childhood, was full of fun baseball games, family picnics, ppl. It was really fun and I just couldn't wrap my head around this. But she was right, as I discovered later, because we could not opt out of a smart meter and I had a different utility than what my father had worked for. But it was as soon as I got sick, as soon as that meter went on. No one told me, but I immediately got very, very sick. This was after having listened to what that doctor from the Cleveland Clinic told me to do to improve my health Eating better, sleeping, reducing my exposures which it was really hard to learn we didn't have all these podcasts and things like that back then and so I had to really research and figure out how to do it. And my doctor my primary care doctor said to me wow, you're in the best health I ever saw you in wow, that's great it was fantastic.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 3:57

I went from having trouble walking up and down steps at times skiing and ice skating um, I was practicing in Philadelphia, riding my bicycle around, working at the Franklin Institute. It was so fun. And these meters went on and immediately got a really bad headache Couldn't think started to get nauseous over time, developed the cardiac symptoms nearly passing out. And the whole medical community other than my primary care doctor didn't really understand this. My Cleveland Clinic doctor, who of course was in Cleveland, didn't see me very often, but you know they would write letters to the utility and the utility did not really accept them or do anything with them and the situation continued and I couldn't live in my house for two months and as a mother of children, that was horrible.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 4:46

To force a mother or anyone it doesn't matter who it is to force anyone out of their home for a method of billing for electricity is wrong. It's just flat out wrong and has a horrible effect on the family and they need to know that. So if they're listening, I hope they really realize this is very serious. When these people are complaining, they're not being a pain, they're really very, very sick and some of them you know now are at risk of death from this. We know this can affect the heart, as you mentioned, so it became a long journey trying to find cardiology. I was a functional medicine health coach. I am a functional medicine health coach.

Keith Cutter: 5:41

So I know how to be healthy and for me, you know to on this healing path, according to your doctor's suggestion that you reduce your I'll call it synthetic radiation exposures. So you were getting better and better and your doctor made the comment that you know you were in the best shape he had seen. And then the smart meter was put in without your knowledge or with your knowledge, and how did? And that was the event you feel precipitated.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 6:12

Oh, absolutely. And we had like a kind of low level transmitting meter on our house, but it was a collector meter. And when they put the meters in the general area which was like two weeks before they put it in where I live that's the first day. I remember sitting on my bed talking to someone on the phone and I can feel this sensation going across the back of my head and then developing just a nasty headache, really unbelievably horrible, and other symptoms started. But at that point I kind of knew what happened.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 6:45

I called the utilities and they said, oh yeah, they put meters in in your area. So I thought, okay, so someone came in and put in stetser filters which worked. That worked for two weeks and then when they got to our street they no longer worked and I immediately got an even worse headache. I could not sleep, I could not think. I was just so sick. And that's where the study, the tinnitus, started, the heart palpitations, the arrhythmias, and so it was kind of this progression and I even when we pulled we had the collector meter removed and a regular smart meter put on and it was an RF mesh, so it was really just as bad and at that point we tried shielding canopies and then started this gradual process of really shielding the whole house.

Keith Cutter: 7:36

Right, right, and you mentioned that you. It was so bad at one point you had to leave your home for a couple of months, and was that while you were getting the house shielded, or oh, it was before, because, as you can see, we have kind of an open floor plan.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 7:52

That's a nightmare, absolute nightmare. I can just remember just like it was mind-boggling, like where do we start? And um, you know, now I regularly speak with engineers, rf engineers I have an idea of how these things you know work and what to do. A pretty good idea. We're always learning. We don't know everything.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 8:16

But, it's such a blessing to have colleagues who can help guide me so I have a much better understanding of what to do and how to do it. Back then we had no idea. I mean, it was just I chose the room that was the most like a box, had doors on all the sides. We had no shielding fabric Like it was so for a couple of years. I was so, so sick.

Keith Cutter: 8:41

I know exactly what that's like. Yeah, and then did it begin to get better. Are you getting more sensitive? Less sensitive. Are you getting more resilient, less resilient how would you describe things for you?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 8:53

It's so interesting because when I'm not exposed I would say more resilient. But then to these newer phones especially, like I can walk into a room and I won't know if wifi is on until a while later I'll get symptoms. But I don't like get that immediate reaction that I can tell, although if it's the wrong exposure I will, and I'll know pretty fast. Yesterday I made the mistake of sitting underneath a Wi-Fi router that I did not recognize and I very quickly got a headache and thought shouldn't be here shouldn't be here.

Keith Cutter: 9:30

But yeah, I have a, I have an apple computer and it pushed an update for an operating system and I thought, okay, no problem. And I'm working along and working along and all of a sudden, man, I just felt terrible and I realized that it went ahead and reset my wi-fi, which of course I don't use, setting on on the computer. So now it's pumping out Wi-Fi and it's frustrating when you don't expect a change in your environment like that.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 9:54

Exactly, and we had the same problem with a printer. It was a Hewlett Packard printer and I spent three months on the phone I'm not joking, three months talking to different people at Hewlett Packard all over the world. And it turns out I didn't even know what happened. All of a sudden I had all this chest pain and couldn't figure out why. I'm telling my family are your phones off? Thinking it was their cell phones. It was not their cell phone, it was the printer resetting and that thing was putting out so much radiation and in a shielded house it's reflecting off all that shielded paint. And when I finally figured it out, I turned it off. The chest paint went away. But then how do you use the printer? So that started this whole three-month process.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 10:37

And now, to Hewlett Packard's credit, they have a thing that you can. If you put an Ethernet cable in the back, it automatically shuts off. And that's really what manufacturers need to do. We need them to work with us. If they're going to have this, it must be the kind of thing that we can turn it off If you have someone who's really sensitive, and you know, especially for those, or anybody though, really.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 10:58

But it's really hard, Like we see people who are very, very, very sensitive and they can barely live in their own houses, and some of them aren't. They're living in tents, they're living in trailers, they're living in cars, and I think the responsible thing for industry to do is to acknowledge this and make their products at cars. You know to be at the car dealership trying to get my brakes fixed. Where could I sit? There was really no safe place to sit. And then you know, know that all these new cars, you can't get a loaner car because you can't ride in it. There's no way, there's no way to turn off the Wi-Fi, the Bluetooth, and that's true now for Honda, for Subaru. I have a friend with a Ford truck, he can't turn his off. So there's so much work to do and it's really difficult for, you know, a community of sick people who are increasingly disabled, to do this work.

Keith Cutter: 11:49

It's such an interesting time that we're living in. It's the first time in human history that personal exposure to synthetic radiation has been normalized. You know, this has never been normal and we're considered to be strange when we don't prefer to experience the radiation.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 12:10

Yeah Right, or we get seriously ill, like to try to go out, like I can't do the things that I used to do, like we used to go to the symphony, we used to go on vacation, even my children's events. I missed Junior Olympics twice, three times. I always count all the kids. It's just really mind boggling how we've gotten to this place where this is okay and I think most people have no idea that it's harming people. But those who do really need to take ownership and do the right thing, and I mean you've suffered for so long, so many of us have.

Keith Cutter: 12:48

And you know, I think about the children. Of course, you have children, and are they being exposed to Wi-Fi in the schools and do they have a choice with regard to that, or do they allow their classmates to have cell phones that are active in the school?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 13:07

Well, I think our state wants to start to look at that and I really am grateful for that because we need to start there. And I think if people realized how different they might feel if they were able to reduce these exposures, I think a lot more people would be hardwiring their internet and keeping their phones on airplane mode and you don't need all those antennas on the phone, but all those children and children the last couple of jobs I had see these children walk through the hallway with hugging their iPads that you couldn't turn the antennas off.

Keith Cutter: 13:41

Right.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 13:42

Yeah, what's going to happen to those children's hearts, to their brains? How? Many of them are going to get cancer, yeah.

Keith Cutter: 13:49

Sometimes I feel like you and I are the lucky ones because we can feel, not in a good way, but we can feel the radiation exposure. So it helps us then to avoid. I mean, we're like forced to avoid, but at least we'll have less radiation exposure in our lifetimes and and suffer perhaps less physical damage because of that. But day to day.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 14:22

Sometimes it doesn't feel like we're lucky to no, no, and I think when you miss, like your children's events, like especially things that are really special, that you never expected, you know, like you know the better sports, the bigger things that they did like to miss, that is really sad, and the first time I watched them drive away on vacation like that was just horrific. And no parent, no one, should ever have to experience that to be left behind because you can't turn devices off in a rental car or find a safe place to sleep.

Keith Cutter: 14:53

Yes, it's not that hard yes. And talking. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 14:59

Yeah, I was thinking is it really not that hard to accommodate people, like if people have an airbnb and maybe this is a practical thing to throw out there, like there's a need for people to have rental units that are safe, that have hard wiring, that you can turn off the wi-fi, that don't have um those electronic door locks? I remember renting a cabin for our anniversary, like in north um north virginia or someplace. It was very remote, I forget where it was, but like um wi-fi connected door locks oh gosh you can go.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 15:30

It's just a cabin in the woods, like to go hiking, like that's not needed at all, it's not needed anywhere. I mean you use a key, and then how many? I mean security, I think, is a whole new problem. And even with the smart meters, you know to know that one of the engineers um calls them cyber vulnerable energy hogs, um mary bauer, and it's um. You're not even being talked about. So do people want this um energy hog on the side of their house that can be hacked and who knows what's done?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 16:03

with it yeah, you want that like do people realize that that can be hacked? And then someone's in your house the key lock for the metal bulb?

Keith Cutter: 16:13

yeah, yeah, exactly so you were, as I understand it, when you were yeah. Are you still working as a physical therapist?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 16:24

Oh, I wish I was this summer. I was told by my doctor it's just too dangerous. I've already had a stroke working. I was working in a school, unaccommodated and just not worth the risk. The exposures are so high and I really fear for the children and the teachers and the teacher's unborn children. You have a pregnant teacher standing under a Wi-Fi router all day. You know where's that going to take us.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 16:49

You know, immediately down the road in hospitals. So no, unfortunately, I'm trying to figure out if there's something I can do, but right now I'm really focusing my time on what I can do to advocate for others.

Keith Cutter: 17:01

Yeah, I really feel for the children, of course in the schools, but also the teachers. One of my clients had been sleeping in her truck for five years. She was running for her life from a teaching job and when they put Wi-Fi in she said it just devastated her health and so and she said it just devastated her health and so she was on this journey trying to find a safe place. So I feel for the children and I feel for the people who have to work in those environments as well. But with regard to your work, I understand you are working with children and so that's a loss to the community. Obviously. Obviously it's a loss to you and your family, but it's a loss to the community as well that you're no longer able to help kids with physical therapy needs.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 17:57

I really miss it. And what I loved about my practice was I would educate, we'd have therapy, but we would also have an ongoing discussion about healthy lifestyles, whether it was food or exercise, sleep. And of course, you know, as I learned, you know their electromagnetic exposures and the children whose parents made even modest attempts at reducing their exposure, those children did much better. It was really amazing. I mean, even in Philadelphia, where all that stuff was, all those small wireless facilities, the parents who tried the kids had better outcomes. And that was before I knew much, before I really got sick and really understood what to do.

Keith Cutter: 18:38

Right. So you had an abundance of radio frequency radiation in your life, and then a smart meter was attached and shortly thereafter you weren't able to work any longer no, and we did get rid of.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 18:55

After the cleveland clinic doctor told me to reduce my exposures, we slowly moved to get rid of everything, like we got rid of all the wi-fi, and that's when the health was really wonderful.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 19:07

Once all that was gone and we still had this like minimal transmitting meter, which was still a problem, but it became less of a problem as we got rid of other things. But really over time, you know, that just is chipping away at your health slowly, slowly, slowly. And with that meter I had, that was when I developed the trouble walking and I really had to work very, very hard at my health. That I mean I really had a pretty extreme lifestyle to function and to be that good. It wasn't like it was an easy thing that I just turned it off and got better.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 19:43

I was still dealing with that very low level exposure, but a really high level, really expert level of functional medicine. You know healthy diet, eating mostly vegetables, organic, clean, lean protein exercise. I had a sauna at that point that was working. The sauna no longer works. So it's so much to think about, so much to do and my heart just breaks for all the people who have no idea what's going on and they're not feeling well and you just see this rise in chronic illness in different ways that it affects people and you wonder how many of those people could be so much healthier if they knew.

Keith Cutter: 20:25

It was really wonderful.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 20:25

You have these podcasts, so thank you.

Keith Cutter: 20:28

Oh gosh, it's my pleasure. So what about? I heard you talking the other day about your faith. How important is that to you, and were you able to continue going to church once you became sensitive? Or can you talk about that a little bit?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 20:48

Sure, well, going to church, like everything else, was very, very difficult. Now, I think during the pandemic, I discovered, you know, a different church that had no Wi-Fi and people were pretty simple and I don't know how I would do anything without God. That's where I really draw my strength. Like this is such a difficult, difficult really. I look at his cross and you know, like Jesus carried his cross, this is my cross to carry and I go to church. I have a small little Ukrainian church I go to every day and I'm able to cover all the Wi-Fi routers and all that stuff. You go in, I cover it, you know we have mass and then go out, cover, uncover it all.

Keith Cutter: 21:33

But what a gift. I mean that's not possible everywhere.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 21:37

Like usually, the wi-fi routers are in the ceiling. This is small and the main church doesn't have it, and the weekend church I go to is bigger. But so I tried to go to a wedding a couple weeks ago for a couple I really love, and I barely made it to the end of the wedding. It was really hard.

Keith Cutter: 21:51

Oh gosh.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 21:52

Yeah, so those are the things that I think are really, really difficult, but I think God's always there to help and I'm really grateful. Yeah, that's what I have.

Keith Cutter: 22:04

That's great that you were able to find a small church and that they were willing to accommodate. You know, having their Wi-Fi router covered when you go, that's wonderful.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 22:15

It's really great and I think bigger churches I mean really church should be the most welcoming place ever that people could leave their phones and their smartwatches and things like that, because how many people can't go to church? But that would be a way to do it, you know, to have hardwired connections for you know speakers and all that. It doesn't move, so it doesn't really need to be. And even if you know the pastor has, you know, a microphone, that's one thing that's a lot different than, but really all of that really could be hardwired. And how many people can't go to church and are really confined to their homes? And I know we have people that had like difficult PUC hearings and they had their Bible out, like it's very important.

Keith Cutter: 23:01

Yeah. So for any pastors or elders who are listening, cleaning up a church is not really that hard to do. If you've got hymn books, you're in great shape. If you've got the screens that are on the walls of the church, wire those Don't use Wi-Fi, otherwise those things will be emitting 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and there's just no need for that type of radiation. So you can still have those in place. Just attach them with a wire instead of using Wi-Fi, and then there's really no need at all for wireless communication in the church. And then you just have to encourage your people to leave their cell phones at home or maybe in the car if they need to be close to them. I was talking to August Bryce. She has a company called Tech Wellness. She was telling me about a new book that she's writing, and one of the studies that she was quoting had to do with a study that was done with students smartphone face down next to them.

Gwyneth: 24:26

It was in airplane mode face down next to them as they did their work.

Keith Cutter: 24:28

They had another group and they took the smartphone and they put it in a backpack behind them. They knew where it was but they couldn't access it. And then the last group had the phones securely placed someplace else outside the room. And guess which of the three groups had better measured attention in their work?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 24:50

I can imagine.

Gwyneth: 24:52

It was.

Keith Cutter: 24:53

Isn't that amazing that somehow those devices have become so much a part of people that if the device is nearby, it has your attention, even if it's in airplane mode, and you can get your attention back from putting it someplace else. So pastors, elders, that's for you as well, that might benefit.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 25:17

That's so true. That's a very good point. That's a very good point. Wow there's so much to think about, yeah truly, truly.

Keith Cutter: 25:25

So. I wonder if we could talk now about your work with Pennsylvanians for safe technology. And I'll just say, to preface this, that some of my favorite people in the world are ones who have been afflicted by this type of poisoning and once they get their legs under them, their first instinct is to turn and try to help other people. So I really appreciate that about what you're doing, but can you tell people what Pennsylvanians for Safe Technology is all about and your work there?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 25:58

Yes, we are a Pennsylvania nonprofit. We focus on education and advocacy. I used to get out and be able to go and give talks and now I can't do that anymore. I can only do things like this online that are wired, so I'm on a wired computer right now so I miss that, but we try to do. You know different people who work with us. We have a wonderful team. We have a really small board and then we have over a dozen advisors, mostly different professionals, and then other people who help support us in different ways.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 26:31

Everybody has a unique gift to offer and we try to really work to educate the public and our legislators and changing the law because we have mandatory smart meters. That's really been a very, very difficult challenge. It's always ongoing and we're always learning and I think you know the legislators really have been denied the information that they need to pass good laws, because I think if they really truly understood how this was hurting people and it could hurt them and their families, why would they want to do this? It really makes no sense. They would be much more careful. So you know we continue to try to work on that and advocate. It's hard because there's too much to do for, you know, small volunteer staff, many of whom are disabled by this. But you know we try to do the best we can.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 27:28

One project we try to network with other states. We have a wonderful project right now called who Knew. The website is whonewinfo. It's a collaboration. It started between Pennsylvanians for Safe Technology and Virginians for Safe Technology and now we have 15 partners and CC Doucette has weighed heavily in from Massachusetts for Safe Technology and we just have people, you know, from all over the place, from Oregon, many states, and we're really grateful for that and we're hoping that that website will help people. We're going to use billboards and yard signs, anything else that people can help. Please have them reach out to us because we need help.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 28:10

But just to get people to connect the dots between why they're feeling lousy, not sleeping, why their ears are ringing and tinnitus can really be very, very disabling and very anxiety provoking for some people that really have it. We have one family that just really got hit very hard by that. So that's one of our big projects. We have our pasafetechorg website and that really features a lot of the science, a lot of the action. There's all kinds of different topics and then links to other websites physicians for safe technology. We're very fortunate. We just got a medical director, so we're very grateful. We have a physician in our state who's very active nationally and he's also our medical director, rob Brown, so we're grateful for him and we just we keep trying every day chipping away at something. So we've been fundraising and that's new because we're not really finance people, we're mostly doctors, scientists, engineers.

Keith Cutter: 29:09

Wow, that's, that's a lot of that's a lot of activity. It sounds like you have a great, a great group there and a medical director. That's wonderful. Now, do I understand correctly that your state does not allow an opt-out for the electric utility meters?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 29:25

They do not. We presented all kinds of medical evidence. I have 13 or 14 doctor's letters myself and I've read the other doctor's letters. They're from different doctors. It's not like the same doctor's the same letter and they have dug in. So we're trying to change the law, we're trying to hire lawyers. It's it's an ongoing, ongoing project and now fundraising, which we're not. We're just learning about how to fundraise, so it's getting there bit by bit.

Keith Cutter: 29:59

Yeah, we we have the same situation in. I live in the state of idaho and we don't have any ability to to opt out of the uh so-called smart meters either. But the real irony is that we have one particular utility that has um transmission lines that go from the point of a generation of the power comes through our state, serves customers, serves customers there, and then it goes over the border into Washington. And magically, when you go over the border into Washington, they all have the ability to opt out, but for some reason not for us, so much in our state. So I'm hopeful in your area with regard to cell phone towers and the rollout of 5G and all of that.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 31:12

It's been mixed, I think we're seeing fewer 5G antennas but, that can change at any time.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 31:20

I think people are more and more aware of it.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 31:22

I think the lawsuits are starting and people have been so sick from these smart meters that it's really prompted people to be more active about it, and we've had groups fighting smart meters. Dr Brown was just on TV helping, you know, to explain to a local community why this is so dangerous. So it's where we're, I think we've learned and it's I think we can do to help you. We're happy to do that, you know, if your state wants to join in on our who Knew campaign, and I think that's a great way to try to get people to realize that these things are a problem. It's really hard and I think too, like maybe one of the things I learned last week from the other groups is this trend to call all the meters, if they're digital meters, just call them digital meters. A smart meter and an opt-out meter is often digital. So if the problem of the switched mode power supply and the conducted emissions on the household wiring is perhaps even worse than the rf, yeah, yeah, and that's something that people need to be aware of.

Keith Cutter: 32:31

It's a multi-faceted attack, really it's. It's you've got the radio frequency radiation which, depending on the meter and the you know how it's being deployed, you can have an emission every 10 seconds, which would be over, if you think about this, over 3 million separate doses of radiation for everybody in that house per year. I mean, how many things would you take 3 million doses of? I mean, I would want to look carefully. That's a really good way to put that. That's a great way to put you take three million doses of? I mean, I would want to look carefully a good way to put that.

Keith Cutter: 33:03

That's a great way to put that three million doses yeah, I mean ours are every three seconds I mean that way, yeah, so three seconds, every three seconds, like who's probably every second now, like yeah what is that?

Keith Cutter: 33:15

like every you know, 10 million doses in a year, it's just um, it's just absolutely crazy. But yeah, so hopefully we'll get relief and hopefully we'll get relief soon and have the ability to go with analog meters. But the harm, of course, in my mind is not only from the radio frequency radiation exposure from the smart meter but, as you just alluded to something called a switch mode power supply, which has never been a part of metering electricity in the past. And even if you turn off the radiofrequency radiation emissions on the meter, you've still got a corruption of the power quality in the house and that reverberates through all of the wiring in the entire home and whatever travels over a wire that is unshielded is going to be emanated into the environment. So you have sort of an attack on the high frequency side with the radio frequency radiation and way down in the intermediate frequencies as well. So dealing really completely with a smart meter is a complex problem. There are things that you can definitely do, but it's a very complex problem.

Keith Cutter: 34:35

The other thing that concerns me is you know, we really don't know, because I don't know that there's been that legitimate research to determine the thresholds for harm. Arthur Furstenberg recently wrote a brilliant article over on Substack talking about how it's more to do with frequency rather than intensity of radiation exposure. All of that means that maybe the smart meter down the road is actually causing more physical harm to you than the one in your house. We always think about shielding our own smart meter, but if we are able and of course everybody, of course you should shield your own smart meter, obviously. But what I'm saying is you've got a variety of intensities of radio frequency radiation exposure from somebody a mile away, three blocks away, three houses away. You're going to be getting different levels of exposure from all of those and it may combine for harm because we don't know what causes the most danger. What are your thoughts about that?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 35:51

Wow. Well, I think back to my colleagues in engineering and medicine talking about one, the RF engineer, about hotspots in a house, that you can have up to 20 hotspots as these transmit and no one's keeping track of that. There's no RF map for the neighborhood and, you know, is your bed in the middle of a hotspot? Who knows? So I think that's one thought and I think the complexity where a lot of people don't understand this, on top of the RF mesh meters which are constantly pulsing, I think there's a lot of questions for engineers and I think you know they should really be briefing these legislators where he mentioned that.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 36:47

You know, all this might seem kind of fringe until you realize that this is really the intersection of medicine, biology, engineering and physics. So you've got all these complex things and we have Dr Tanya Sloecki here in Pennsylvania and she talks about the heterodyning. There's so much that I mean I can't even pretend to understand a lot of this, but I know that these things are issues and that who's talking about it? We just put these meters on the house and all is well, and you've got people getting sick.

Keith Cutter: 37:12

Right, right, yeah, and here we are, the two of us talking about this?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 37:19

Two different states, the same problem. Yeah, exactly You'll have to collaborate with us and we'll have to learn from you. You know things you've done that have worked or haven't worked.

Keith Cutter: 37:28

And the hardest thing for me. I so much appreciate these kind of dialogues because normally people that become as sick as we are, we lose the ability to be a part of the world in many ways.

Keith Cutter: 37:41

but technology gives us this opportunity right now to have this conversation, which I will publish far and wide to the best of my ability. But the great sadness, of course, for me is we may never be able to see one another face to face, and that's a sad thing, because we're working towards the same problem, and wouldn't it be great if we could have a convention, you know.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 38:08

It would be neat. We often talk about that. Even the people in my own state I've never met. You know most of my colleagues in person.

Keith Cutter: 38:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 38:19

Yeah, it would be fun to be able to meet each other and so many people all across the country.

Keith Cutter: 38:25

I would love to be able to go, for example, to the Weston A Price annual get-together. But you know there's no safe way for me to travel. Right when would I spend the first night Right?

Gwyneth: 38:40

Where would I?

Keith Cutter: 38:41

spend the first night Right and then, once I got there, everybody loves their cell phone. Nobody loves anything more than their cell phone. If they leave it at home and they drove down the road, they're going to turn around and come back and get it.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 38:56

They don't know the bliss of really not using one.

Keith Cutter: 38:59

Yeah, because it's really addicting.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 39:01

And how much time do you waste? When I think back when I used a cell phone, how much time I wasted, and then you know you're holding it. I mean, think about it. It's rating at your face, your eyes. We've got all these people with vision problems, brain problems as people get older, alzheimer's, and who wants to have that phone?

Keith Cutter: 39:23

right in front of your face and your heart. It's not a good idea. Yeah, dr Martin Paul published an interesting paper. I think the title had the words digital dementia in it and it went a long way talking about neurological implications of radiofrequency, radiation, exposure. So there's an abundance of data out there, but I really think that people don't want to know.

Keith Cutter: 39:46

And here's an interesting thought. So I'm of the opinion that harmonizers and personal protection devices and those kinds of things are actually a good news. Bad news, and the reason I feel that way is I mean, of course, they don't work. That's the bad news, I mean. And when I say they don't work, what I mean is that all of the ones that I've looked at, if I take my analytical equipment, which is very sensitive equipment, and I measure an environment without the device and then I measure it with the device, I don't see any kind of an effect.

Keith Cutter: 40:27

And of course, if they really worked, then your Wi-Fi wouldn't, you know, or your cell phone, you know, wouldn't work and things like that. And if they really work, then cell phone companies could, instead of worrying about litigation, they could just put a giant one next to their tower. But no, the good news is that people buying these things, and you can now see them in convenience stores as well as online. So that great news is that people are, at least unconsciously, aware that there's a problem. And they've gone to the next step. They not only realize that there's a problem, so awareness precedes control. They've gone out and they've done something about it Not something that's going to actually fix the problem, I would argue, but they took action, didn't they?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 41:17

So I kind of see it. Yeah, I see that that's a good point, the stickers on the phones and stuff like that, it's all the same. Yeah, and how many years have you had a smart meter mandate?

Keith Cutter: 41:32

Maybe around 2010,. Maybe even before that, I'm not certain. The really insidious thing about the county in which I live is they've deployed two different types of smart meters. The one is the more typical type of smart meter that has radio frequency radiation emissions, and the other one is maybe called a PLC meter power line communication. So if you want to talk about an impact on power quality, oh my gosh, so there's no radio frequency radiation emission, but the the information that's transmitted every few seconds is going out over the power line, and the problem with that is everything above ground in terms of transmission and distribution lines, as well as everything in your home, is going to be re-radiating that signal that's being sent out over the power lines, and so they escape people's notice because you can go out there with an RF meter that works in 99% of the places that have smart meters and you look at it and you'll say, well, no, there's no smart meter and they don't realize that it's a power line communication type of meter. So it's sort of a stealth technology, I would say.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 42:59

Then to hear that that might actually be worse. And then you're putting it right on the power.

Keith Cutter: 43:06

I think it's worse. Yeah, I think it's much more difficult to remediate. There are things that you can do. If people are willing, it can be quite an extreme measure. But putting in an isolation transformer and and um, you know, we've already talked about dirty electricity filters you can. You can make an impact. You can at least reduce the overall level of of dirty electricity in the home. Reduce the overall level of dirty electricity in the home.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 43:43

That's encouraging to hear because I think even here it's so difficult and I think to get a good quality dirty electricity filter it's really hard, it's expensive, and I tried back when I could go to the Capitol. One of the things I tried really hard to do was to emphasize to the legislators that what you're doing is so unjust for people who don't have, you know, a lot of, you know discretionary income. Like how, the extra money to pay for these things, it's just horrific. Like how can they do? It's really hard. Turn your power off is about the only thing you can do and that's, I find, still doesn't even at night. Our power is off now by remote switches and it's still not perfect no, no I do things in a way, but yet not doing so well with these newer devices.

Keith Cutter: 44:36

It's yeah, turning the power off just doing it the way only turns off one out of three conductors that serve every outlet and appliance in the home. And you can get a type of a disconnect switch that will turn off two of the three and that's better. But then you've always got that grounded conductor and that's not interrupted. Wow.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 45:07

So that's probably why you still have symptoms. Maybe, yeah, a remote thing that you push the button and you turn the power off.

Keith Cutter: 45:15

Yeah, maybe after this call we can talk about an isolation transformer and if that might be a help for you. But your last point about the people that are being harmed usually nobody wants to admit. I mean, you were telling your story about how you know you couldn't imagine when the doctor was first telling you that, you know, wi-fi router could hurt you. I mean, I was the same way. And so people go through this sort of cognitive dissonance phase and at some point I think it's a gift from God.

Keith Cutter: 45:50

But at some point people make this correlation better this way, worse this way, and so it becomes very real to them and they begin you know, on this track. And so it becomes very real to them and they begin, you know, on this track, typically we lose our ability to make money, and so that could be problematic in a modern society, and then we lose our ability to most of us, to even be able to go to our own churches or shopping, or you know that's, that's a slow, um, yeah, it's sort of a downward spiral. And then a lot of the people by the time they're ready to really get serious and they say I'm willing to give up everything other than my wi-fi, my cell phone, whatever. They just don't have the resources, and so then it's really difficult, because how can you then shield your home if you need to? How can you then sell your home and buy a new one that has protection from terrain features if you're not able to work?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 46:53

And yeah, that is so challenging, and earlier I was thinking of a project that we were starting to talk about looking at grant money, different ways to fund some sort of housing, both permanent housing and then temporary housing, because if someone has a fire, like where are you going to put them? They can't go to a hotel. New infrastructure goes up. You got to figure out what to do and then you know, get them in more permanent housing. But there's really nothing in our state and probably nothing in your state.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 47:28

It's really a huge problem and it's one of those things I think maybe it's kind of terrifying for people to realize oh, this exists. It's easier to look away and not talk about it, not try to work for solutions, but yet that's what we really need, because when people are so sick, so disabled and then so impoverished that how can they do any of this? This is all very, as you know, it's very expensive. This is a really expensive disability and it's recognized under the law, but yet there's no ADA accommodations, you know, with the utilities at least. But yet if you're out in public, like a lot of times, people will work with me, I find you know they'll give me a safer place to sit Instead of signing things.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 48:16

You know want an iPad. They'll give me a piece of paper, but there's so much work to do in the hospitals, training medical staff, because the medical professionals are really trained by medical schools who are funded by industry, so it's hard. You know, this is not a topic that's covered and they've already got a lot of infrastructure. So it's another situation where, gee, we have all this, what do we do? Yikes, they could start. They could start with some Aegis guard.

Keith Cutter: 48:40

Yeah, and so yeah, I have somebody who was a nurse in a telemetry unit and they went wireless and that was the end of her career. It actually amazes me that medical professionals would think that when you're looking at telemetry, that wireless would be a good idea because it so obviously provokes a sympathetic immune system response.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 49:13

But they don't know that because they haven't been educated, and that's that's the challenge, and we're always trying to. I think it seems like if you have a doctor's letter and you go in with that, that seems to be be helpful to get the ball rolling, but not always not always yeah always yeah, and then and then.

Keith Cutter: 49:34

then the people are gone from the environment, and so don't have your story, because I think people like us like to know we're not alone, right? We like to know that there are others In fact there are many others who are suffering from the same thing, and I think it's a good thing also that people who aren't aware of all of this be able to see the struggle and the suffering from location-independent phone calls. You know not having to go to a telephone. You know with a wire to make a call.

Keith Cutter: 50:32

Wait a minute. I mean, really, what does wireless buy you? It buys you one and only one thing location independence. So in your home you've got a Wi-Fi router. Do you really need to be able to use your computer in 17 locations in your home, or are there like two or three? You know that you could easily wire and then you know in the broader sense in society do you really need to be able to make a phone call in the tunnel or on a bridge or whatever? Could you make it before you leave or when you get home?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 51:04

No, I think you know the idea of locating, changing your location, using, you know, your laptop or your tablet. It's really not that hard if they feel like they really need to be able to move it. Like, sometimes I'll like to do like have something playing while I'm. Usually I like silence personally, but every now and then I like to listen to something. So, or you know, if there's a, you know whatever it is, but I'll take, you know, just a long cable, ethernet cable, and just stretch it out the door, the window, and pull weeds and listen to whatever I want to listen to, not that hard and really the cost of not being able to talk about location independence you become location dependent, you're stuck in your house, right, right cost. I mean, that's the trade-off, like this is supposed.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 51:53

Independence of being able to move to different spots, and then you can't go anywhere, can't go on vacation, you can't go, even if it's something really special for your child, forget it, you're going nowhere. You know retirement trips? I can't do that, I mean, unless things change and that's going to take people to care and make them change, because who knows who's going to be next? You know it's just us now, but every day there's another person, and if 30% of the population is developing this and then we're going to introduce the IoT, which is going to cause more of this, where are those people going to go?

Keith Cutter: 52:29

Yes, all great points. And IoT. That means, of course, the Internet of Things, and I think, in trying to figure out what's going on in this crazy upside down world in which we live, what I have started doing is separating what is being said about a technology from what will be the effect of the technology. So, whatever is being promised about the Internet of Things, the effect is more radiofrequency radiation close to people, and that's just a simple, very simple way to think about it. Iot equals more radiofrequency radiation close to people and, of course, with regard to understanding EMF assessment remediation, the closer you are to a source of radiation, the worse. And so IoT really bad idea. Electric vehicle agenda really bad idea.

Keith Cutter: 53:29

I know a lot of people don't want to hear that, but yeah, you just destroy the power quality in a community and the additional electricity usage is going to have the effect, I believe, of increasing alternating current magnetic fields for everyone, and they're going to have these strange frequencies on them, not just the 60 cycle that we're used to so well. I wanted to end on a hopeful note. We've kind of enumerated a lot of the problems and we've laughed at some of these things, because at a certain point, you have to laugh and not cry at a certain point. You have to laugh and not cry Because, as we've talked about, the world seems to be getting smaller for those of us who understand that we're being poisoned and we can feel it, but our love and our desire is for everyone that we would stop the madness and expose one another less or not at all, and particularly for the children.

Keith Cutter: 54:45

So, if this talk has motivated you to jump on board and get involved, change, if it's going to happen, is going to happen at the local level. Nobody's going to come from above and solve this problem. So I think maybe the message and Don, I'll let you talk about this before we sign off but I think maybe the message is work with your local state safe technology organization if you have one one and get involved at a local level and at a state level and we'll see if we can't make changes and let's continue to encourage one another. And one thing that I talk about all the time in my work online I publish a weekly EMF-related podcast is to replace all this fear that we have with knowledge and a plan, specifically knowledge and a plan for reducing personal exposure to all types of synthetic radiation. So that's my encouragement, and I'll let you have the last word.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 55:51

Yeah, I think that's really said a lot of wonderful things and we really safe technology groups really need your help and that goes for everybody. You know, whatever your background is. There's something that people can do. People you know at the smallest level can just educate their neighbors. We have little two by two cards, two cards. We kind of go back and forth between business card idea or just the two by two ones, but just even just telling people about the website, what to do, how to reduce your exposure, how to be more inclusive of people who really have very limited lives.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 56:28

If you have somebody in your community you can't get out. We have people that would really appreciate you know, a visit, show up without your cell phone or you know, offer to get them something, just little things, like anything. And I have to say we have a lot of really wonderful, wonderful people and that, I think, is a really bright spot in all of this that people who care and really trying to help other people, you know, and just keep moving along in a positive direction and not being afraid, because I think there's really nothing you can do about some of this. You change what you can, but being afraid of it isn't going to be helpful. Think of the positive solutions you can make, and I think that's really where you should focus your attention.

Keith Cutter: 57:07

All right. And where do people go to contact Pennsylvanians for safe technology?

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 57:15

You can go to our website, pasafetechorg, and you can contact me at. I answer the email pasafetech at either gmailcom or protonmailcom. Sometimes we have trouble with the Gmail account, so sometimes Proton works better and we have whonewinfo. That's another wonderful place you can and that's where you can find your safe technology group through who knewinfo and also you know there are other groups that do that as well. You can follow the links on our websites.

Keith Cutter: 57:45

All right, terrific.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 57:46

Thank you so much for having me.

Keith Cutter: 57:48

Donna, thanks for thanks for your time. I appreciate it.

Dr Donna DeSanto Ott: 57:51

Oh, you're welcome.

Gwyneth: 58:02

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