In the Door and At the Table: DEI and HR practices

This episode was suggested by Katie Brown, Assistant Vice President for Student Success and University Registrar at Aspen University. Katie asked how those of us in positions that oversee hiring can make a concerted effort to increase DEI initiatives at our institutions and how to remove barriers in interviewing, hiring, and onboarding. To tackle this subject, the ladies talk to Simone Brown Thunder, District Human Resources Manage for the North Orange County Community College about interviewing, onboarding, and creating an inclusive environment for everyone.

Simone and her family returned to California in 2018 after living in Falcon Heights, Minnesota for eleven years. She joined the North Orange County Community College District (NOCCCD) as a Human resources Administrator. Part of what attracted Simone to this position was the opportunity to focus on talent acquisition and to have an impact on one of the most minoritized and marginalized student populations in higher education.

Previously, Simone was working at the University of Minnesota in the Office of Human Resources as a human resources consultant, with a focus in talent acquisition and continuous improvement. She helped colleges and units improve the hiring process while creating inclusive strategies to increase the diversity and cultural competency of faculty and staff.

Simone is passionate about talent acquisition, whether that is consulting with employees about best practices for hiring a diverse workforce, or educating employees on the importance of diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility.

Simone herself represents diversity as a member of the Karuk tribe—one of the largest Native American tribes in California. Originally from Eureka, California, she worked in Sacramento with Indian Health Service, a federal agency that supports tribes and health clinics throughout California. Simone has many years of human resources experience, along with a Master of Education in Human Resources Development from the University of Minnesota.

Transcript

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You're listening to HD Higher Education and real diversity. A podcast sponsored by Acro. This episode was inspired by a suggestion from Katie Brown, assistant Vice President for Student Success and University Registrar at Aspen University in Denver, Colorado. Here's what Katie wanted to know. Hello Herd Team. I've been loving your podcast so far. If you were looking for topics for future episodes, I would be very interested in. How do you think those of us in positions that oversee hiring could make a concerted effort to increase de I initiatives at our institutions? Are there things we could do in the interviewing or hiring process to remove barriers for others? Are there suggestions of places to post job ads that will reach a more diverse audience? Thanks, thanks Katie to address this topic. We're speaking with Simone Brown. Thunder Simone is the district Human Resources Manager for the North Orange County Community College District in California. We'll talk about interviewing on boarding and creating an inclusive environment for everyone. All right, let's get started. Hi, Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her. I'm Ingrid Nuttall. Of course, K OK. I plus and I was like, I'll be three. I'll do three. You too. I'm three. Hi, Acro Community. Welcome to another episode of her. I'm Ingrid Nut. I'm Porsha Lamar-- and I'm-- Tashana Curtis. On today's episode, we're excited to welcome Simone Brown Thunder to the podcast. Simone is the District Human Resources Manager for the North Orange County Community College District in California. And in this role, Simone has the opportunity to focus on talent acquisition and have an impact on one of the most minoritized and marginalized student populations in higher education. Simone previously worked at the University of Minnesota in the Office of Human Resources as a human resources consultant with a focus on talent acquisition and continuous improvement. And in Sacramento with Indian Health Service, a federal agency that supports tribes and health clinics throughout California. Simone herself represents diversity as a member of the Ku tribe, one of the largest native American tribes in California. Simone. Welcome to Herd. Thank you all for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you.-- And-- did I say the name of your tribe correctly? Simone? No, but that's ok. It is. Well, it's Kuk or in our language is Kuk. So, yeah, that's how it's said. Um I appreciate you correcting me. I should have asked you beforehand, which is probably actually one of the things that ties into the conversation we're going to have today is like figuring things out before you start. But it also gives an opportunity to show sometimes you don't get that time. And what just happened here was that I apologize and please correct me and it's ok. It's ok.-- You-- have Grace first episode. So Simone, in every episode, we've asked our guests to share a little bit of information about themselves and their background, kind of like going beyond their biography description.-- So can you tell the acro community a little bit more about yourself?-- Sure. Um Well, I grew up in Northern California, Eureka and in and around our tribal, in my tribal community, our land, the hoopa reservation up there. Um I think, you know, my grandma, I lived with my grandma and she was very pro education and that kind of shaped my educational journey. She went to a boarding school, one of the first boarding schools in Oregon Chema boarding school. Um And I think because of that, she was just, she knew that education was the pathway, you know, to um just improving your life. And um I was a nontraditional student. So I'm a product of the community college system here in California. I started right after high school and was not successful and um started working right away and then later on um started back at the community college system. And um so as an adult as a parent, you know, so I was working to get my undergrad and I finally finished that up later on and then got my masters from the U of M um, and just really realized what that meant for me, you know, coming from that first gen um, student and not having anyone in my family, you know, at that time, graduate from college and how it helped me in my, you know, career and just, uh livelihood and all of that. So, um, I think that's why I'm really passionate about, you know, where I work right now, working for the community college system and working with students that are like me um and knowing what this education can do for them.-- So,-- Simone, in the question we received from Katie, she asked us about how a more inclusive hiring process can advance like big picture institutional de I initiatives. Can you talk a little bit about your experience in how a more intentional approach to embedding DE I and hiring has like had an impact on institutional goals and maybe some examples of what hiring managers should pay attention to when they're doing that work. Sure, thanks. Um I think, you know, search plans developing those initially are so important. Um But developing those uh with the intention of including DE I in the entire process. So, um and you know, that's easy to say if you don't know how to do that or what that looks like. Um You know, I would say hiring managers should partner with hr they, if they have a diversity equity inclusion office, someone that's really um knowledgeable in that area. Um another thing that I think is really helpful that has helped me in my work. And when I worked at the University of Minnesota, and where I work now is a process following an inclusive search process. And that's just again, incorporating that from the very beginning that de I all the way to the end. And I think I like following a process because if you don't have a process and you're just relying on say search training, you've taken that um focuses on bias and hiring or reducing that bias. You may have taken that some time ago, you might not be familiar with search committees and how that works. And as soon as you get into that situation and you don't know, you revert back to your, what you're comfortable with and that often times involves bias. So I like to follow the search plan um or the inclusive hiring um process from beginning to end. And that's what I recommend to hiring managers to search committee members so that they have something to fall back on um in that process. So can you talk a little bit more about some of the like highlights of the process that you would expect to see in a search plan? So if people aren't relying on training and they're making a plan, what are some of those like headers that you would expect to see? Right. Um Definitely, you know, starting with the job description, the position description, what does that look like? So making sure that the language that you write in that posting, that job posting is inclusive and um you know, is engaging to um diverse communities that when I look at that job posting, I say, oh yeah, this is a place where I'd like to work. I could tell that they support, you know, de I they're inclusive um sharing demographics of OK, what is it like to work at this institution? What is their, you know, employee demographic look like? Um For higher ed, what is their student demographic look like? I think that's really important. So starting with that, the language in that job posting, looking at those minimum qualifications and the desirable qualifications because those are the things that are going to um eliminate candidates or even, um but they wouldn't apply to the posting depending on what they saw in those desirable qualifications or um, so that's really important. Um And then, you know, when you're establishing your search committee, who's on your search committee, you know, are those individuals um supportive of the, including de I in the process, are they culturally competent? Um Are they diverse themselves, representational diversity? You know, what does that look like? Because, you know, if you're looking at my own self, you know, I know I have privilege and, you know, I'm, I represent as white. Um I am Native American too, but when I'm sitting on a committee, nobody knows that you know, and so for candidates coming in, they're already nervous, you know, and it's really, I think it says something when you see someone else that looks like you, you know, and I think that's really important to focus on that. So those are like key things that I would say that you're looking at in your search plan and then where you're gonna advertise, are you um sharing this within your networks? Um That's why the committee is so important to be diverse because if they're diverse, they're going to share the job posting within their networks and those are probably diverse. That's just kind of how it works, you know. Um And then being intentional about um looking at other places uh that are diverse, you know, organizations. Um There's so many resources out there. We'd created a database when I was at the U of M. Um And even here where I'm at now, there are many opportunities to share job posting with diverse networks. So that shouldn't be an issue that's kind of a given now. But those are the things that I would say are really important. So what about the demographics? Are you really able to share that within a job post? We do? So where I'm at right now, um in our standard language of all of our job postings, we include the, when I say demographics like the percentages, high level, yeah, the high level of, you know, our student demographics um you know, because we report every year on our demographics of our employees and our students and we compare those, you know, and we share that. So I think it's really important to do that. No, I mean, I do too. I agree and I, and I like that. You all do that. Um, I was just, I just didn't know if it was Porsche. Why were you wondering if you could? I'm curious, other people might be wondering the same thing,-- um,-- just, um, experiences of dealing with. Um, uh I'm not, I don't hire anyone at all. Just hearsay and talk and initiatives that we're trying to be made in previous places I have been at in which, um, they were very iffy about giving that information out. So that's why, but I'm glad and excited to hear that you do that. I would look at that job description like what I don't think I've ever, honestly, I don't think I have ever seen that in any job description. I mean, because one you're going to always see the salaries posted, right? That's what you want to see. But anything else is the next thing is the description. I've never, I don't think I've ever seen anything in which it shows demographics of students or, you know, employees. Well, I can say that I actually have seen jobs, especially the ones come from head hunters or recruiters because they always add, they'll add the community. Um, you know, how many acres and they go into really detailed on certain. So I have seen that not common and again, like from head hunters or recruiters, I've never seen it, like just looking on linkedin or something like that. Right. Yeah, I, I do like that. We do that here. Um, but I have, you know, going to your comment, Porsha, I have heard working with search committees. I know early on, um, where they would say, you know, can we even know about the demographics of the applicant pool because we would share that with them and say, hey, here's your applicant pool. This is what it looks like and it's really not meeting the availability um pool and they were really surprised that they could even look at that or discuss it. I think, you know, they're thinking in terms of like EEO and the law and are we able to see that? But definitely that's important to look at that applicant pool. We do that here and I know we did that when we were at the University of Minnesota. I would say that it was a huge change for me to get from my hr partner when I had a job posted saying like this is the percentage, this is what your pool looks like. This is how it compares to market availability for by pop populations and also by gender and like continuing to kind of show that all the way along. And I would say it was a shift kind of to your point. There's like a feeling of from an EEO or equity perspective. It's like, oh if you start talking about and calling attention to race, you are potentially participating in discriminatory practices. But I think that also gets to some of the things we've talked about in the podcast before where like if you don't talk about it, there is this assumption that you're getting like that, that everybody is white or that there, you know, like there's this, if you don't talk about it, then what's the dominant narrative? So Simone, like, what do you, what do you think about all that? Yeah. No, we had the same conversations. Um I know when I first started at the U of M um because I was questioning like, well, if we don't share these percentages of demographics of the applicant pool and then even to when they select, you know, those interview candidates, how do they even know that they have a diverse, you know, that they've done enough recruiting in these areas and how do we move the needle then in that area? You know, then all of this is for not, that's how I felt. Exactly. That makes so much sense, doesn't it? Yeah. And then I did, I did speak with um the I, I forget her name at the, at the U but I did speak with someone there in EEO who is an attorney. Very knowledgeable about this. And her recommendation was this, as long as you're not using that, those demographics, that information to consider to make a hire, you know, you're not using that to determine your hire. It's not a decision in the hiring process. It's fine as long as you're looking at it for the entire pool just to, you know, interview to make sure that you have a pool that's diverse. And that was fine. And that is, uh, I think that's a, it can, that line could be easily crossed too because, you know, you want to do good and you see these numbers so you lean towards, it's all the implicit bias plays into it and it goes both ways. So it goes both ways, meaning like you can have your biases but your biases because you're trying to do good play and go on the other side of things. So yeah, that's tricky. Yeah, it was tricky. I mean, you know, because if people do have bias and then they know that, oh oh jeez, you know, my interview pool is X and you know, so that's why we were careful with that. Um, you know, just giving percentages and are just saying, you know what, this is a diverse pool move forward with your, your interview. When you say the diverse, how do you just by looking at names on paper? How do you know that they are a diverse group? For example, um, when I started out. I never put my name on my resume. I always put my initials. A lot of times people thought I were a man and things and because that is because, and again, I love my name, but I didn't, I wanted it to not be, I didn't want people to think that to know that I was black. Um I wanted them to look at my experience, my experiences on my resume. Um, and, you know, I did get a lot of actually, I think I even got a job when I used TM Curtis on my resume as opposed to my full name. What, what advice would you give someone starting out with? Maybe an unusual name, not the standard Jane or Tom, what advice would you give them to? So they can be included into that diverse pool of candidates? That's a good question. Um Well, first of all, I think, you know, going back to your comment about, you know, how do you know when you're looking at names if someone is diverse? Um One of the things that we, you know, council hiring managers and search committees and just everyone in general is to definitely don't look at the name and assume their diversity. We don't want them doing that instead. Um hr provides a report to them because um on the application, there's a area there where an applicant and of course it's optional can disclose, you know, their race or ethnicity, gender there Um And that's what we use to, to pull that information, we do not look at the names and, you know, make assumptions based on that. So that's the first part of it. The second part, you know, this is why it's so important for organizations to demonstrate their support of DEI A on their job postings. Because so for example, um you to Shana, when you're looking at job postings and you're reading this and you see that this organization has all of the support around it. They're providing their demographics. They're saying we encourage bo applicants to apply. Then I would think you'd feel more comfortable in saying, you know, checking that box and saying, yes, I am black, you know, and disclosing your um race and that's what we're trying to do with those job postings hoping that applicants will do that, that if you see that. Now, if you don't see any of that, I understand your concerns, you know, because there is bias out there and I would hesitate to put my full name, you know, I think of my own name. You know, this is my husband's last name, Brown Thunder. It's two words. It's Native American. It's, you know, these type of names are very common with his um Lakota tribe. And um you know, I get a lot of questions around my name and, and people are interested or, you know, they'll make comments that you don't appreciate sometimes. And um I I think, you know, I had the same thing when I apply and I, you know, put my resume out there with this name, um, because it is different, but I would encourage you to look at the job posting applicants, you know, to look at that organization and see if they are supporting dia and then if they are, I would, you know, take the chance and, and just put my name out there. The flip side of it is if I and I, and it took me a while to get here, but if I couldn't put my full name or if I didn't feel comfortable enough in putting my full name, then I didn't really want to work at that place anyway. Right? But I get the other side and I 100% get what you're saying to Shana. I just eventually was like, I don't have time to play these games, right? It's as you guys are talking, it's like, it strikes me that this is something I've absolutely never considered like the ass. I've never ever considered what people are gonna think when they see my name. Um I have an unusual name, you know, at least kind of like around here I used to, it's a lot more popular now. And so like, I've always felt like my name was quite the opposite, like an asset that made me stand out because I'm usually the only Ingrid. Um And so just like, again, sort of really thinking and reflecting on the difference for me, like to Shana and I feel like all three of us sort of have, we have unusual different names but the way that we experience that in the world and what that gets us in the workplace can be so, so very different, not just different, but like it gets, it might get me something and take something away from you. Yeah. And that's just the negative and I don't even know if it's all negative if you're trying to hire someone based on their name. But you know, I'm sure the Asian community can say something. Um Like you said, the Native American community, the Hispanic, it's a lot that may be affected and scared to say their name. So they use other names, right? So I have a colleague who shared with me how a recent search she was involved in. Um she had to make accommodations for a candidate who is visually impaired and the interview was being conducted virtually. So it led me to think about my own interview approach and how like I might uh you know, I participate in some ablest practices like the assumptions that I make, right? I design the interview process with some really specific exemptions assumptions about how candidates are able to participate. So can you talk to us about how we could start to shift this thinking for interviews so that we can have a better experience for all candidates and where, um, where people might begin. Yeah, that's a really good um, comment and question. Um I think I know, I was really surprised. I remember attending um, a session, I think there's AD E I certificate at the University of Minnesota and I attend one of the sessions I attended was on um, disabilities, um, employees with disabilities in the workplace and how far they've come so far, you know, since I think the act was put in place in the seventies and the presenter was showing data and it was like the increase in that was so minimal with hiring those with disabilities. Uh I mean, I was really flabbergasted. I couldn't believe it. And I thought, wow, all those years, decades, you know, making minimal progress. And why is that? And, um, again, I think it goes to, you know, considering, you know, that community and how we develop our job postings, how we structure our interviews. So I would say the first thing to do is to just do an audit, you know, on your, your job posting and your entire process with, through the lens of, you know, those with disabilities and um how they would, you know, see this. And um I think to do that if you're not knowledgeable in that area, one thing is if you have at your organization, an office that's like a DS s office or those that are really experienced in that area, partner with them. I'm actually, um, I have AAA session scheduled with our, um, DS S folks. There's three of them that are going to um look at our hiring processes and see if we're, you know, doing the best that we can do and how can we make changes to improve in those areas? Um I know, I see language written on job postings that could definitely be written differently. Um You know, and I think that's the number one thing to start with that. Um And then making it so that those with disabilities don't have to, you know, ask for that accommodation. It's already ingrained in your process. It's, you know, looking at its lens of universal design where those changes, you know, work for everyone and that person doesn't have to, you know, you already feel, I think as an applicant, if I had a disability and I already had to call and say, can you change this for me? I already feel then at that point, um different and, you know, maybe I don't have the same chance as everyone else because I had to contact them and ask for this change. And um I think that is, you know, step one doing that audit on your process, partnering with um experts in that area and then making those changes and incorporating that focus and talking about it. I don't think we talk about um you know, uh that community enough in the hiring process. So would you suggest maybe um rather than maybe like a first step as I'm thinking about it is instead of waiting for someone to disclose, asking the question when you're in addition to putting it in the job description, when you're ready to go through the interview process, being like, you know, we, this is what the format is going to be. We can make different arrangements if this doesn't work, you know, something kind of to that effect. Yeah, definitely. That, and whatever you could change up front in your process, um, that would help those with disabilities before they even ask. I think that's huge with all that is going on when it comes to hiring a person. And I know hiring managers could feel overwhelmed. It's a lot that, you know, you've got your everyday job and now you have to set aside time and hire someone. I mean, we all know that that is a huge, huge, huge deal. Um, how can you, what is the smallest thing that you can implement that deals with de I, so that, that they, that, that at least a change is happening? Like, well, how can you make sure you're, you're keeping that in mind throughout the whole entire hiring process? That is a good question too. And, you know, I heard this often from hiring managers, like I need to make a hire right away. You know, I, I don't have time basically is what they were saying to do, you know, all of these best practices that you want to incorporate. Um, and they didn't, of course, come out and say that they just say I have to hire quickly, you know, and I get that, you know, you need to fill a position, you're, um, maybe underwater in your department. Um, and I understand that, but also, you know, I would just say, you know, think about this, this decision is so important, you know, whoever you hire and sometimes I would just frame it in, um, think if this was the only opportunity you ever had to hire someone and, you know, a lot of times their areas would not be diverse. And this was the only opportunity you ever had to hire to consider, you know, hiring someone to bring in a cultural ad, you know, not a fit. This is it, that's how you should think of it. I get that, you know, we're busy and, um, we want to do this quickly, but, you know, it's really important to slow down that process, you know, and as for hr can't always be there, you know, in that hiring process, they might help you in the very beginning. But, um, you know, here where I'm at, we just don't have the staff, the resources to do that. So that's why we really, um we revised and focused our inclusive hiring toolkit to kind of do that work for us and for that hiring manager So I just go back to that all the time and we tell them follow this. Exactly. And it will eliminate bias as much as possible throughout the process if they follow that. Um, and that's, you know, I think that's the number one tip. I would say that hiring managers should use, there should be some kind of process in place if there isn't, I would say they should, you know, reach out to their hr department and ask for something like that, you know, to be developed because it's really, I think if you don't do this often, you're really busy. It's hard to try to go out and find, oh, what are the best practices in this and pull from here and pull from there, you're not going to do that, you know. And so if you have just one document you could look at, it's easy to use. We have um links inserted into this document. Um I think that's uh something that they should look into re use. Ok. So let's imagine a world where we have a fabulous hiring process and we attract more diverse candidate pools and we hire them into our organization. Um And, and let's say there's a group that are sort of the first wave of increased representation in our offices or in an office. What happens next? How can we create a more inclusive environment from the get go. One of the things we've talked about on this podcast is, it's all well and good to get people in the door. But what are you doing to make them stay? So how can we help people stay? Gosh, that is so important. Um I know organizations are at different phases in this process. Some are just now focusing on, you know, the recruitment and you know, dia in that area. But once you get um individuals there that, you know, are the first in their um group to be there, it's like you do all of this work, you spend all of this time and then you put no focus on that and that is critical, you know, it starts with the on boarding and how do you on board someone? So we on board everyone. But how do you make that inclusive, you know, same thing you do with the hiring process. What is the on boarding process look like? And how do you make it as inclusive as possible? Um You know, it depends on who you're hiring if they're out of state or in state. But I think number one, you have to have a plan in place, right? A really good onboarding plan and, you know, recognize that, you know, this person is coming from a different community and if you don't have anyone else, you know, in your area, um you need to be intentional um with how you include that employee and make sure that they have connections, I would say partner them with a mentor in the department, someone they could go to someone outside of the department. And then if your organization has um faculty and staff associations, I think it's really important to share that information with them. I know um I joined at the U OF M when I was there, the Native American Faculty and Staff Association. Um I was one of the founders here in establishing that at North Orange Community College District with two other um folks. So I think that's really important in sharing that I always say put that in the offer letter, you know, or when you're communicating via email and, you know, list all of your F SAS in there because you don't want to make assumptions, right? Um But just so that they know like, hey, we have these groups here. Um And then, you know, other than that, I think it's just having those real conversations with the employee being open as a hiring manager and recognizing that not, you know, turning away from it because you're worried about, you know, you don't know how to handle it or approach it. Um But just having that open door policy and those conversations around that communication, that's what I would say. Now, I don't know um if you all have any other experiences or recommendations, one job that I did have um and the person, the hr person did exactly what you said. Um I was coming from out of town and they just gave me all information down to where the local grocery store was. And I just thought that was really nice of them because I mean, literally I had all information in this packet. Um, and I just thought that was really helpful and I thought that they cared, cared enough to tell me, ok, that's where the grocery stores are and this is where you can get your license, you know, they really took their time and I really felt, I felt special with that. So I agree with that. That really will make a world of difference with your, with that person coming on board. Yeah, I think it could be all very much overwhelming being coming on board to a new place, especially depending on the size of the institution. Um, I think in my experience it was never, I feel like finding things was haphazardly. I oops, accidentally found this. Like, it wasn't like it was, um, oh, here we have this, this, this and that. Um, so, yeah, I think, I actually think that's a really good suggestion to say, you know, here are some things and again, it could have been there but depending on the size of your university and all the information overload you get, it could be something that you don't, you miss, you miss within those first couple of days. So maybe timing in which you share, this would be something that someone can consider as well. Right. It, I was thinking about not so much when I got a job, but when I first started working for the registrar's office and how I was like on boarded and introduced to our Regional Association. Um And that it was my participation in that group was never, I've talked about this before, like never shown to me to be like extra. It was like, this is like, it is a part of your job to be a part of community and professional development. Um An investment in is like just something that you should be like come to expect and it was normalized. It wasn't like there wasn't a process that I had to go through. At least in those early days of asking for permission to grow my career, it was like shown to me to be expected. And the person who brought me along was someone who had influence and a reputation already like a positive rep reputation in that group. So when you talked about sponsor, like mentorship and um and we've talked about sponsorship before, I think about how for the person coming in, if they're coming into a brand new institution, they don't know if someone is or isn't someone with influence, right? Or like they don't have all that information. And so if you can double down on investing and partnering people with someone who like really understands the institution and can help them navigate it, not just someone um who you know that it, like you said, like it's good to have someone who is their peer or someone who's on their team. Um But when you have the opportunity to reach outside and have someone who can help them understand like the complexities and set that tone for them, that's such a powerful message and it might be a powerful message that they don't even understand on day one because they don't know where they like, they don't, they don't know what, what they're getting themselves into. Um But it can make a big difference in retention. I agree. It makes a huge difference, you know, having, as you say, um like a sponsorship, someone that um has that influence, you know, you see, um other groups might already be well connected. I mean, traditionally, you know, that is the case and they'll be invited out to lunch with someone at, you know, at a higher level. Has that influence, they get instant um kind of credibility in their, you know, areas and that doesn't often happen as much with uh someone coming from a different community. They may not have those networks established at that higher level, right? Um So I think being intentional with that and connecting that individual with someone that has more influence is really important and they should be given that opportunity. Um Yeah, I agree with that. I, I was at an institution in which they, they did do that. But um unfortunately, the flip side to that is we're feeling overworked nowadays. So to add that piece of mentorship take, it is it is, it's requiring sometimes a lot. And then it makes you feel as if I got to do this. But your place of employment is not considering the fact that you have a lot on your plate. So it's either you feel overwhelmed or you the whole gist of um your retention plan goes out the window because then you just focus on the business again. And I just wonder how can we have that balance, that consistent balance where it's part of the culture at your place of employment, regardless if you're feeling overwhelmed with work or whatever. Like you still know, like this is something that we need and need to keep up on. I've just seen a lot where um you just, you just put in the fold like, OK, go just, just go like and then you hear stories like, oh yeah, we used to because times were better, you know, at that moment, you may have had a lot of people who are leaving, but now we know the culture after what um sorry for that ding after what COVID has happened, you know, people are leaving. So I just, I want to know how we can find that balance of still keeping those de I efforts, keeping retention, hiring practices, all that stuff. It's not more of a question, it's just a comment of thought, yeah, that goes with the pass and the baton. Yeah, that's right. Because if people leave, then that whole idea, that whole plan is out the door. Yeah, I hear what you're saying on that. Um I think that's why it's really critical for like dia to be, you know, not just hr, not just, you know, the EEO diversity office, it really has to be everyone's job and, and that goes to your comment about creating a culture of that, you know, if you set that expectation, you know, talking about setting expectations in the very beginning, you know, with the higher writing that into the job description into the performance evaluations. Um you know, that that is an expectation, you will, you know, support, develop your cultural competency, support dia throughout, you know, everything I think that helps. And um you know, that's one of the, you know, people do leave, we do have a lot of work on our plates and if this is spread out that work, even when people leave, you have institutionalized, you know, Dei A and I think that's what we should be working towards um you know, incorporating it into everything and it's everyone's job,-- you know,-- Porsche, I wonder if the whole like being over the whole idea of being overwhelmed and it being um like things being complicated in the world of d being really big in addition to like, of course, that's true, right? Like the world is a complicated place. But I wonder if that is also a way in which change has been, like, suppressed over time is the idea that, well, it's so big and it's so complicated and there's so much to know that we have to, like, really learn everything before we do anything and it's difficult to start. And so like, when I hear Simone talking in the answer earlier about like, ok, what are you doing it? Well, have a process. I mean, like, write things, write things down and be intentional and the simplicity of that and the idea that something that is simple can affect change when, when it butts up against the idea that, like, there's so much work and we have so much to do it, it's like it feels insufficient to deal with the problem. But maybe that is, maybe it's actually just that, like, quote un, it's a podcast so my air quotes don't work simple. Yeah, I think, I think, um, it goes back to a quote that I know if, well, not a quote but something I've always been told, you know, if you really, if you really want this, you're gonna have to, you may have to work hard but it, it'll become a practice and it is just taking that time out to actually work at it to do the work. Yeah, we don't have a habit. Yeah. I, like, I'm a process oriented person and I feel like that's easiest for me to learn and to incorporate something. If you say, you know what um for on boarding, this is our process, this is what you follow and it already has all of that um Dei, a best practices for retention embedded in there. You know, I could follow that. Um It's when you, I think the challenge maybe is when people, you know, go to this training, these are best practices, incorporate this into your everyday work. You know, when you're busy and in it, like you say, and we're overwhelmed, we're not going to think to, oh, I've got to incorporate this. No, you're just going to do what, you know, you know, at the moment, what is the path of least resistance at that moment? And so that's why I do think if we can develop, you know, look at all of our processes, if we don't have any, develop those to incorporate de I best practices throughout um you know, for recruitment and retention, that's a good option. That's a good start. Simone. I have a question. Um You were saying Dei A, what does the A? Well, you know, that could be, it's different for different organizations. You know, we've, we've done Deia A, we've done DE ID ei A, I've seen it all over. Um For us, Deij, oh Dij for justice, justice, OK. Dei A um for us was diversity equity, inclusion and anti racism. Then we went to dia a diversity equity inclusion, accessibility and anti racism. Um So the dia is, it was anti racism, it's been changed to accessibility if it's just dia, if it's dia a, you know, it's both. So I've heard a lot of um variations of that. I don't know about you all but I see it, I hadn't heard the anti racism.-- I actually made an assumption that it was access.-- Oh, really? And that's why I wanted to make sure I'm like, is she saying Dei A and I, what's the A I mean? But I thought it was access to, I've just recently seen the J and I was going, oh, there's AJ added. OK. Yeah, I haven't seen the J but we have been using the anti racism for the A for a while. So Simone, we're trying to conclude these interviews with something that's like approaching a call to action for people. You've already talked about where people can start working on a process thinking about their recruiting efforts. Um Having a diverse hiring committee so that you have people who can reach out to their networks to bring people in. Kind of like leveraging community. Just kind of again, that big picture wrapping up. What do you think is the work to be done within DE I in de I within the domain of human resources? And how would you ask listeners to take action so that they can orient themselves appropriately to that work? OK. That is a good question, I'm thinking of a couple of things. Um, you know, first I would say just to look at their current um hiring processes, you know, hiring and on boarding processes, what do those look like and kind of do that, that review and audit, what is their understanding of it? Um You know, can reach out to hr to those in this area that are, you know, really experts in it. Um But I feel like, you know, sometimes I get discouraged because I look at the data, the hiring data that changes over time. I talked about that earlier and, you know, you read all of these articles and how little we've come over decades of trying to do this work and move this needle. And I think, gosh, why, why is this not worked? You know, um why have we had more change? But I really think it, you know, taking out of the human resources or, or maybe it is in it. Um It's us as an individual, you know, I'm an employee here. It's just me as a person. What have I done in my life outside of work to kind of inform myself and make changes in how I see people. And to me to do that, the easiest way is to get outside of my comfort zone and meet people that are different from me. Make those connections, you know, look, look at your social media, do an audit on your own self. And say, who are my groups? You know, who do I do things with as soon as you meet someone else outside of your group and you, you get to know that person, it changes your entire perspective, you know, and understanding of a particular group. Um, I know that's done that. I've done that. Um, you know, I've had my own assumptions, my own biases with different groups as soon as I get outside of that and I, I meet someone there and I make a true connection. It's amazing what that does. So I would say that would be my call to action. Um That's a good one. That's a good one. And it also goes along with those bias tests that you can take and, and it's funny, I've taken a couple of them, but you think what your biases are, they could be there. But the ones that shock you are the ones that you're closely related to, you know, I could be a woman and I am, I could be totally biased against women because I have my own standards. So, yes, I like that. Simone. I really do. Thank you, Simone Brown Thunder. Thank you so much for joining us on her. We really appreciate your time. Thank you all. It's been a pleasure. I've enjoyed it. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Herd, a podcast sponsored by Acro. We'd love to hear from you. Share your episode ideas or feedback for us at HD at acro.org episodes are produced by May Oa Inna. Thanks. May oa, we'll see you next time.